Star Wars: The Force Awakens (2015)

[Joe]

So we'd have to wait two years between installments instead of three. Works for me. And I'm out of the loop . . . how often will the tie-in films be launched?

On the off-years between the big trilogy movies.

[HeySandyStrange]

I would be fine with Finn having the Force, I just hope if they go that way they do something unique with it. Maybe have him learning a different Force philosophy then the same ol' Jedi or Sith ways of using the Force or have some special talent. I always liked how the EU explored the fact the different flavors of Force use throughout the galaxy and I think it wouldn't be out of place in the movie verse, either.

 

But him remaining without the Force won't hurt him either as a character. It hasn't hurt Han Solo, Chewbacca, Lando Calrissian or Boba Fett, some of the most popular and enduring characters in the SW universe. He has plenty of room to grow into the Big Damn Hero in his own right without being a Jedi, imo.

[VCRTracking]

An article about how merchandisers believing Kylo Ren and not Rey would be the breakout character and missed the boat:

 

Why on Earth did Star Wars insiders think kids would relate to Kylo Ren over Rey?

 

The insider, who was at those meetings, described how initial versions of many of the products presented to Lucasfilm featured Rey prominently. At first, discussions were positive, but as the meetings wore on, one or more individuals raised concerns about the presence of female characters in the Star Wars products. Eventually, the product vendors were specifically directed to exclude the Rey character from all Star Wars-related merchandise, said the insider. “We know what sells,” the industry insider was told. “No boy wants to be given a product with a female character on it.”

 

“I’ve spoken with Disney people, and they were completely blindsided by the reaction to the new Star Wars characters […]They put a huge investment into marketing and merchandizing the Kylo Ren character. They presumed he would be the big breakout role from the film. They were completely surprised when it was Rey everyone identified with and wanted to see more of. Now they’re stuck with vast amounts of Kylo Ren product that is not moving, and a tidal wave of complaints about a lack of Rey items.”

 

An explanation for this can be in this excerpt from Bill Moyer's interview with George Lucas in 1999 when Episode I was released:
 

BILL MOYERS: I’ve had psychotherapists tell me that they use “Star Wars” sometimes to deal with the problems of their child patients. And they’ve said that the most popular character among the children is Darth Vader.

GEORGE LUCAS: Well, children love power because children are the powerless. And so their fantasies all center on having power. And who’s more powerful than Darth Vader, you know? And, some, you know, will be attracted to Luke Skywalker because he’s the good guy. But ultimately, we all know that Darth Vader’s more powerful than he is.

 

 

And when you have a good guy who's possibly more powerful than the bad guy, well....

Edited January 21, 2016 by VCRTracking

[Browncoat]

They also tend to forget that there are girls who like Star Wars, too, and would like to have the action figure of the girl.

[Trini]

Well, that's just dumb. Even if they thought one character would be more popular than the other, why would they specifically exclude one of the main characters??

[Lantern7]

Maybe they thought Ren/Ben would come across as badass as his grandpappy. Also, Darth Maul was kinda cool in 1999, right?

[stealinghome]

I am stunned, stunned, STUNNED that they thought a whiny white boy would be the "breakout star" of the film instead of the actual protagonist, who is good and brave and badass but female. Stunned, I tell you.

[Spartan Girl]

I am stunned, stunned, STUNNED that they thought a whiny white boy would be the "breakout star" of the film instead of the actual protagonist, who is good and brave and badass but female. Stunned, I tell you.

A guy that KILLS HIS OWN FATHER?! Who happened to be our beloved Han Solo? Who the hell are these people?

[Watcher0363]

I am stunned, stunned, STUNNED that they thought a whiny white boy would be the "breakout star" of the film instead of the actual protagonist, who is good and brave and badass but female. Stunned, I tell you.

 

 

A guy that KILLS HIS OWN FATHER?! Who happened to be our beloved Han Solo? Who the hell are these people?

I think this stems from not seeing the finish product before making decisions on marketing. Kylo is clearly not enviable, bad ass or likable material by the end of the film. The script they were working from probably did not have the temper tantrum in it or the killing of Han.

[SeanC]

They also tend to forget that there are girls who like Star Wars, too, and would like to have the action figure of the girl.

As I understand it, that's not really them forgetting, it's deliberate.  Toy companies thrive on keeping the line between boys' and girls' toys as firm as possible; girls aren't supposed to be buying action figures, they're meant to be buying from girl-oriented toy lines.

[brgjoe]

Just saw this movie last week for the first time. 

 

And I know I am in the vast minority in this.  And that most of my friends think I am cray-cray.  Ok, they probably knew that one before.  :)  But while I liked most of the film (especially the young leads), I can't get over this one thing..

 

They killed Han Solo!  You bastards!

 

I didn't know about HF wanting to have Han killed off.  So I guess there's that.  But I hated to see him die.  Especially TPTB bringing back such an iconic character, just to have him sucker sabered by a whiny, bratty, cosplaying Darth Vader wannabe.  I know I'm supposed to think, "Gee, golly, he killed his own father...so that shows just what a terrible, EEEEEEEVIIIL guy he is!  What an awesome, powerful scene that helps define this film and his character!"   Nope, no sale from me.  It just pissed me off.  So much so that I refuse to see the film again.

 

Too bad too.  That I generally liked most everything else about it.  I guess I wished we'd see more of Phasma.  Perhaps there will be more shown of her in the sequel(s). 

And yeah, put me into the "I don't want to see Kylo redeemed" department.  I want him dead dead.  Preferably by Chewy dismantling him limb by limb.  But that's just me, I guess.  :P

[DollEyes]

More thoughts:

 

Still hearting Finn. He may not have super powers like Kylo nor is he as fearless as Rey, but he's very brave, in his own right. He risked everything, especially his life, to do the right thing for the right reason. He doesn't always win, as shown in his fight with Kylo, but his willingness to try is a victory in its own way. Finn may not have Force-like powers nor be Force-sensitive, but that doesn't mean he doesn't matter. If Finn wasn't important, he wouldn't be one of the main characters in this film, nor be in any of the sequels. Team Finn 4 Life!

 

  I'm a little disappointed that the next film will be delayed seven months, but the way I see it, that just gives TPTB more time to make it just as good as this one, if not even better.

 

I personally don't think it warranted a Picture nomination, as much as I enjoyed it (and I saw it three times).

 

  I agree...I loved it (and also saw it three times), but it isn't suprising that it didn't get [Oscar] noms in anything other than technical/music categories. I would have been surprised if it hadn't gotten the noms it did.

 

I respectfully disagree. For one thing, there must have been something besides the special effects and the music that you loved about it, otherwise you wouldn't have seen it three times. I'm not saying that TFA was the best movie of the year, but IMO it was one of them because it, like the first three SW films before it, was the kind of movie that made me fall in love with movies in the first place and if the box office is any indication, I'm not alone, by a long shot. The way I see it, TFA didn't get a Best Picture nomination because it's a victim of its own success, which it shouldn't be. Plenty of blockbusters have been nominated for Best Picture, including the original Star Wars in 1978, which also got noms for Best Director for George Lucas and Best Supporting Actor for Sir Alec Guinness. I think that Harrison Ford could have gotten a Supporting Actor nomination for TFA and cornered the "Old Actor Who Recreates One of His Most Iconic Roles and Does It Better Here Than In the Original"  vote in the Motion Picture Academy, if Sylvester Stallone hadn't gotten there first for Creed. The Oscars is also a TV show, and since TV shows are ultimately about ratings, giving TFA an Oscar nomination for Best Picture could have given the show one its best ratings in years, if not the best.  

[Dandesun]

My five year old nephew loves Han Solo, wants to be Han Solo when he grows up so he's rather despondent at the goings on in the movie. My seven year old nephew loves all the of the amazing Imperial tech from the original trilogy and thinks Darth Maul was cool... but his favorite character in the ep 7 is Rey. I told him I agreed and asked him why he liked her. "She's smart and tough and just... awesome."

 

He's immensely happier now that he's seen the movie that he got the Rey's Speederbike Lego set from me for Christmas. He was already happy with it (he loves Legos) but he's even happier now that he's got something with his favorite character.

 

From my experience, little boys don't care whether or not a character is a boy or a girl... they care whether or not the character is awesome. It's the same thing with Legend of Korra. Korra kicked ass, that was enough for them. They also liked Asami who was smart and built things. They liked Bolin because he was funny. Generally, when I see boys disliking something because of gender reasons, it's because someone else has told them that.

[Trini]

...

From my experience, little boys don't care whether or not a character is a boy or a girl... they care whether or not the character is awesome. ...

 

Remind me to tell you the story of the two 8-year-old boys fighting over which one of my Powerpuff Girls dolls they got to play with. ("No, I'm Buttercup!")

 

But seriously, we know these companies already underestimate girls, but it's disheartening that they underestimate boys, too.

Edited January 22, 2016 by Trini

[Bill1978]

My 5 year old godson is obsessed with Kylo Ren. Admittedly, he hasn't watched the movie and probably won't see it for a while due to it's rating. But it is amazing how one mask and a lightsaber has this kid hooked on Kylo Ren. He at least knows he is a bad guy. Although I think he is going through some sort of rebellious stage as he is keen to only play Darth Maul and Darth Vader on Disney Infinity when he visits. Even though my godson seems to support the thinking of the marketing team, I still can't believe they thought it was a good idea to ignore the MAIN character of the movie when it came to merchandising.

[Danny Franks]

Well, no matter the antiquated, 'urgh, girls are gross' thinking of the people making marketing decisions (and of some fans), I'm just glad that the overwhelming response to Rey has been one of positivity and enthusiastic acceptance of her as a protagonist. Because she is awesome, Dandesun's nephew has it right. Smart, capable, resourceful, funny, resilient, brave and (let's not ignore this, because it does play a part, but it also plays a part with male protagonists as well) gorgeous. What is there not to like? Honestly, every single demographic should be engaged by a character like this.

 

As for the toys, I'm too old for them, but if I was one of those guys who was prepared to spend £200 on a Hot Toys figure, Rey is the only one from this movie that I'd consider buying. I've already said that I like the other characters in the movie as well, but Rey really stood out thanks to a strong narrative for her, and to Daisy Ridley's acting. I find it exciting when I watch a movie and see a new star emerge before my eyes.

[VCRTracking]

[benteen]

A few people have even created a Kylo Ren as Matt action figure.

 

http://www.slashgear.com/kylo-ren-snl-action-figure-mockups-imagine-matt-radar-technician-20423742/

[Perfect Xero]

Excellent Kylo Ren cosplay (with special guest, Deadpool)

[kili]

My seven year old nephew loves all the of the amazing Imperial tech from the original trilogy and thinks Darth Maul was cool... but his favorite character in the ep 7 is Rey. I told him I agreed and asked him why he liked her. "She's smart and tough and just... awesome."

 

My 12  year old son has the same view. Rey is his favorite for the same reason with Finn a close second.  He has no use for Kylo and his whiny temper tantrums and killing of Han. 

 

Who are these execs who demanded the removal of Rey from the toy line-up? Did they prefer Ash to Ripley in Alien? Did they watch Buffy and wish Riley became the main character? Did they never watch Xena? Did they learn nothing from the Black Widow toy fail? Ugh.

 

Somebody needs to be assigned different marketing responsibilities for the next movie. Perhaps they can be in charge of getting cups and ice for the premier party.

[SophiaD]

 

Who are these execs who demanded the removal of Rey from the toy line-up? Did they prefer Ash to Ripley in Alien? Did they watch Buffy and wish Riley became the main character? Did they never watch Xena? Did they learn nothing from the Black Widow toy fail? Ugh.

 

They need more women and more diversity in general in marketing.  Those tropes they are using were tired in the 1970s.  In fact, all of Hollywood needs a nice, refresher course in Real Life, As it Exists Today.  The Oscar nominations were ridiculous.

 

I am so delighted that 1) this movie exists and 2) is doing so well.  I'm only sad that I didn't get to see it when I was nine.  

[Bats27]

I Haven't met anyone who doesn't like Rey. I'm a 25 year-old guy and she's my favorite character (followed by Finn and yes, Kylo).

 

As for Finn, I'd prefer that he NOT be Force Sensitive.  1. It'd be boring if all of our major characters were FS, 2. I like the idea of the "bad*** normal" in this world full of superpowered beings (Han and Lando being two prominent examples), and 3. You don't need to be FS in order to be a worthwhile character, as Finn in TFA already proved.

[nobodyyoucare]

I Haven't met anyone who doesn't like Rey. I'm a 25 year-old guy and she's my favorite character (followed by Finn and yes, Kylo).

 

As for Finn, I'd prefer that he NOT be Force Sensitive.  1. It'd be boring if all of our major characters were FS, 2. I like the idea of the "bad*** normal" in this world full of superpowered beings (Han and Lando being two prominent examples), and 3. You don't need to be FS in order to be a worthwhile character, as Finn in TFA already proved.

Well to be fair not full of superpowered beings. There is something like one force sensitive per millions to billions of beings. In the Old Republic Jedi were rare to the point most beings never encountered one and thought their powers were hyperbole. 

[nobodyyoucare]

 

In fact, all of Hollywood needs a nice, refresher course

A lot of the elite just needs to retire and stay away from filmmaking or voting on films. Wish I could find the article that was done by some major publication that l read years ago, that showed the attitude towards animated or certain film categories from the judges of the oscars and other awards. The quotes showed a lot of the voters of these awards refuse to watch certain films that are sent to them because they view then as kids films. Hence the films never get nominated or win if they are nominated because the majority of the voters refused to do their job and watch the films. 

[Watcher0363]

Well to be fair not full of superpowered beings. There is something like one force sensitive per millions to billions of beings. In the Old Republic Jedi were rare to the point most beings never encountered one and thought their powers were hyperbole. 

That is old canon. We will have to wait and see how the new Disney canon shakes out. So far all we know is everyone and their uncle are adept with a lightsaber. Energy beams can be fired through hyperspace covering many light years and not only does it not dissipate but can emerge out of hyperspace on cue to destroy a target. (Cool). And it appears everyone has quantum eyesight that allows them to see objects destroyed light years away in real time or is that simultaneously time, either way. (Cool again)

[Featherhat]

I know this is from a while ago but this is how I feel after seeing so many twitter and tumblr feeds.

 

You see, Emperor Palpatine and Jabba the Hutt are not attractive pale-skinned white boys. That's the difference.

The first time Ren took off his mask and showed us his face I audibly groaned and thought to myself "Loki Fangirls dream" and I was right.

Even if the fact that they are likely to be closely related is set aside, why should Rey have to shoulder the "responsibility" for bringing" "Ben" back to the light just because he's a "cute" screwed up poser?". Even Vader didn't want to be Vader in a mask, that was because of his horrific injuries, he'd have preferred to be Vader with red and yellow eyes looking like old Anakin. And he's worshiping a twisted mask that is the thing that proves Anakin ultimately chose his son over Palpatine and knowingly died a Jedi, whining that he's "feeling a call to the light". I want Leia to have a happy ending but otherwise I see nothing remotely interesting about this teenage snit that he should have gotten over. Snokes "more actively involved Thanos" act didn't make me curious either.

Edited January 24, 2016 by Featherhat

[SNeaker]

IF there is going to be an attempt to redeem Ben by Rey, it may not be a burden she is told to shoulder so much as a decision she makes when she finds out more about his/her/their past and/or potential family connection.

 

Luke wasn't instructed to redeem Vader. In fact he was told the opposite. So it really all depends.

[Jediknight]

He's immensely happier now that he's seen the movie that he got the Rey's Speederbike Lego set from me for Christmas. He was already happy with it (he loves Legos) but he's even happier now that he's got something with his favorite character.

That is a good set, and especially for being the cheaper set.  The Poe X-Wing is the best one though, and despite having about 50 more pieces than the Milano it was easier to put together.

 

Even if the fact that they are likely to be closely related is set aside, why should Rey have to shoulder the "responsibility" for bringing" "Ben" back to the light just because he's a "cute" screwed up poser?".

I won't call him that name, he is an insult to the name of my favorite Star Wars character.

 

Rey's my favorite character from this one.  I loved all the new heroes, Rey, Finn, Poe, and BB-8.

Edited January 24, 2016 by Jediknight

[Zuleikha]

Even if the fact that they are likely to be closely related is set aside, why should Rey have to shoulder the "responsibility" for bringing" "Ben" back to the light just because he's a "cute" screwed up poser?"

I don't think she does or will, at least in a romantic sense. There would have to be extreme curveballs in the who-is-Rey for that to happen.

 

But structurally, if Ben is going to be redeemed, Rey is likely to be the one who does it. She's the main protagonist, and he's the main antagonist. Anything else would be like Han Solo redeeming Vader--just out of left field and weird. Leia and Luke are both alternate possibilities, but they're supporting characters in this trilogy. Structurally, it's hard to see how the story could work with even both of them doing it without Rey's direct involvement. Even Finn as the alternate main seems a weird choice simply because he doesn't have the primary connection with Kylo Ren; Finn seems more likely to impact Hux or Phasma (since the word on the street is that Phasma's much more important to the upcoming movie, it's possible she's going to end up a significant secondary antagonist)

 

I don't think it's a foregone conclusion that Kylo Ren is getting redeemed, though. This isn't the original trilogy and Kylo Ren isn't Darth Vader. This is a new story, and  Ren may not get the same type of ending. I'm so torn on wanting Han's last gesture of love to matter and be part of bringing Kylo Ren back, but I don't know that it's going to happen or even that it should happen.

[Lexxy]

This isn't the original trilogy and Kylo Ren isn't Darth Vader. This is a new story....

 

 

Coulda fooled me!  *Ba dum tshhh*

[VCRTracking]

Great analysis of the soundtrack at the "Rebel Force Radio" podcast where they point  out something cool. That the last three notes of Kylo Ren's theme are the same as the first three notes of Rey's theme.

 

It's at around 29 minute mark:

 

http://www.rebelforceradio.com/shows/2016/1/14/star-wars-oxygen-vol-26-the-force-awakens-part-2

[ChelseaNH]

I don't know what's going to happen with Ren, I'm just looking forward to a massive snit fit when he discovers that killing his father hasn't made him any happier with his life choices.

[Watcher0363]

I don't know what's going to happen with Ren, I'm just looking forward to a massive snit fit when he discovers that killing his father hasn't made him any happier with his life choices.

Now that they are rewriting episode VIII, maybe they can transport or holograph in Dr. Phil to help Ren with his issues and Maury Povich to help Rey with her parentage issues.

Edited January 25, 2016 by Watcher0363

[Mom x 3]

But I don't want Finn to be a sidekick, I want him to be a main character in his own right and not constantly bringing up the rear.  And the Star Wars story is at its core about the Jedi and the Sith and their never ending struggle for dominance.  Force users simply have more agency in their actions than anyone else and while non-Force users may help, ultimately the big decisions are made by and revolve around the Jedi and the Sith.  But really, I wouldn't be complaining as much if JJ Abrams hadn't misdirected people into thinking Finn was going to be a Jedi.

 

I agree that the misdirection was there, and that may have tied in with the whole "leave Rey out of the merchandising" stuff.  

I don't want Finn to be force sensitive either.  I want him to be a genuinely good guy who is all heart.  Leia, although with a background of being raised to be a rebel and a princess, was a main character that was not revealed to be force sensitive in the first movie either.  I'm thinking that is where they are going with this.  I hope he's not related to Mace though.  Can we please not have all the black people related to each other?  We already have that with the Skywalkers.  

[Danny Franks]

Han Solo. He was not remotely Force sensitive, but I would point and laugh at anyone who said he was "bringing up the rear" in the original trilogy. Yes, it was Luke's story, but Han and Leia were just as important to fans, and in the story, as Luke was. He had full agency, except for when he was encased in carbonite.

 

And I've said too many times now that just making everyone Force sensitive or a Jedi reduces the impact of being one to nothing. The prequels removed all the mystique about the Jedi Order, and reduced them to squabbling incompetents who occasionally wave lightsabers around. It's time some of that mystique was restored, and I think they did a good job of that in The Force Awakens, by having it revolve around Rey's own awakening. Finn does not need to have that same revelation, and he won't be reduced to a sidekick just because he can't move shit with his mind.

 

I could easily see Finn growing to become a commander in the Resistance, using his old training to fight back against the First Order. Let him grow in confidence and build a team of loyal followers, and let him find his own path before he and Rey meet again.

[Joe]

Six times and I retire undefeated. Seriously, I'm completely fed up with seeing the same trailers over and over again. I didn't like them the first time...

 

Here's something clever I noticed. In Rey's vision, she sees a little rectangle of light that her family's ship disappears into. Outside on Starkiller Base, she looks up to the sky and sees a little rectangle of light. Her vision also contains a flash-foward to her fight with Ren.

 

Also, Daisy Ridley has great arms. She must put a lot of work into them. And how does she make those sleeves stay up? Double-sided tape? On another costuming note, her new outfit at the end is similiar to her first outfit. But it doesn't contain the skirt. There's probably some kind of symbolism there. Anyone? And I hope she doesn't start dressing like a Jedi in the next movie. She looks fine as is. And I don't want those arms covered up.

 

On a completely different note, the two moments that always get me. The first reveal of the Falcon, and the long shot of the X-Wings over the lake. I don't know why, but they always grab me.

[lion10]

Han Solo. He was not remotely Force sensitive, but I would point and laugh at anyone who said he was "bringing up the rear" in the original trilogy. Yes, it was Luke's story, but Han and Leia were just as important to fans, and in the story, as Luke was. He had full agency, except for when he was encased in carbonite.

 

And I've said too many times now that just making everyone Force sensitive or a Jedi reduces the impact of being one to nothing. The prequels removed all the mystique about the Jedi Order, and reduced them to squabbling incompetents who occasionally wave lightsabers around. It's time some of that mystique was restored, and I think they did a good job of that in The Force Awakens, by having it revolve around Rey's own awakening. Finn does not need to have that same revelation, and he won't be reduced to a sidekick just because he can't move shit with his mind.

 

I could easily see Finn growing to become a commander in the Resistance, using his old training to fight back against the First Order. Let him grow in confidence and build a team of loyal followers, and let him find his own path before he and Rey meet again.

 

Couple of things.  I've seen multiple people say that the prequel trilogy ruined the Jedi by having too many of them, but I don't think that's where they went wrong.  The prequels stumbled from terrible dialogue, an even worse love story, and the midichlorians.  At its height, the Jedi had approximately 10,000+ members in a galaxy of over 1 trillion souls, that's not too many.  And maybe it's because I grew up with the prequels instead of the originals, but I thought it was fitting that the there were so many Jedi.  We're supposed to see the Jedi Order at its height, followed by its tragic fall into near extinction.  The story of the prequels would be diminished if you only had 10 Jedi that were then killed.  And if you wanted to get meta about, perhaps removing the mystical-ness of the Jedi was one of the thrusts of the Prequels.  Yoda and Mace Windu straight up said their ability to use the Force had diminished.  

 

And even if you think 10,000 Jedi was too much, I think the argument that having three Jedi instead of two Jedi is too much is a weak one.  We already saw Luke vanquish (with a lot of help) the Emperor and Vader as a sole Jedi.  It's established that Luke's first school of Jedi ended in disaster.  I think it would make sense for this trilogy to end with the proper reestablishment of the Jedi Order, and to do that you'll need more than two Jedi.

 

I also think that Finn becoming a Jedi could be more interesting than Rey becoming a Jedi, or could at least set up a nicely contrasting storyline.  Finn could become a Kyle Katarn-like character who like Finn was an excellent Stormtrooper but later became disillusioned with the Empire.  Kyle discovers his Force Sensitivity on his own and is partially self-taught.  He also fulfilled the everyman role, one of his famous quotes was "I'm no Jedi.  I'm just a guy with a lightsaber and a few questions."  I think Finn and Rey taking different paths to becoming a Jedi could be interesting with Rey being the naturally gifted Force prodigy whereas Finn has to put in much more work than Rey to get to the same level of competence.  I mean, for two trilogies we've seen the hero/Force prodigy come from a desert planet, I think it would be more interesting to see a Stormtrooper become a Jedi as it's something we've never seen before.  

 

What I want to see in the sequels is Finn and Rey standing as equals, because as of right now, it's definitely imbalanced in favor of Rey.  And I'm not arguing that Rey should be brought down, I want Finn to rise, classic zero to hero.

 

For me, my favorite shot of the movie is on Jakku where the camera pulls back and reveals the size of the Star Destroyer compared to Rey.

[Danny Franks]

Couple of things.  I've seen multiple people say that the prequel trilogy ruined the Jedi by having too many of them, but I don't think that's where they went wrong.  The prequels stumbled from terrible dialogue, an even worse love story, and the midichlorians.  At its height, the Jedi had approximately 10,000+ members in a galaxy of over 1 trillion souls, that's not too many.  And maybe it's because I grew up with the prequels instead of the originals, but I thought it was fitting that the there were so many Jedi.  We're supposed to see the Jedi Order at its height, followed by its tragic fall into near extinction.  The story of the prequels would be diminished if you only had 10 Jedi that were then killed.  And if you wanted to get meta about, perhaps removing the mystical-ness of the Jedi was one of the thrusts of the Prequels.  Yoda and Mace Windu straight up said their ability to use the Force had diminished.

 

And even if you think 10,000 Jedi was too much, I think the argument that having three Jedi instead of two Jedi is too much is a weak one.  We already saw Luke vanquish (with a lot of help) the Emperor and Vader as a sole Jedi.  It's established that Luke's first school of Jedi ended in disaster.  I think it would make sense for this trilogy to end with the proper reestablishment of the Jedi Order, and to do that you'll need more than two Jedi.

 

I think the prequels got no end of things wrong, and the amount of Jedi and their ineffectiveness was absolutely one of those things. I don't care if there were 10,000 Jedi, I didn't need to see them all. I didn't need to see more than a handful because they honestly weren't important to the story. Mace Windu existed for no reason other than to put Samuel L Jackson in the movie, and he was the only one who was even memorable for not looking like a crazy alien. Having all those Jedi for no purpose did take the mystique away from them. If it had been better told, then it could have been a powerful story. It wasn't.

 

Not that I think the story had any real point except to say, 'look how Darth Vader was made... badly'. Still, the point of this story should be, in my opinion, to make Jedi interesting and exciting again. Like the thrill I felt seeing Luke turn up at Jabba's palace with that zen calm and the black cloak. Rey's story can do that, because Rey has the same wonder that Luke had, the same desire to be something more than what she is. We can see her learn to master this new power she has, without hearing about midichlorians or senate decisions or 'there is a disturbance in the Force' repeated ad nauseum.

 

What I want to see in the sequels is Finn and Rey standing as equals, because as of right now, it's definitely imbalanced in favor of Rey.  And I'm not arguing that Rey should be brought down, I want Finn to rise, classic zero to hero.

 

Which is why I suggested seeing Finn become a military commander in his own right. There's more than one way to be a hero in this universe, and becoming a Jedi shouldn't be the only way that people appreciate. Because again, the coolest, arguably most loved character from the original trilogy was the one who had no Force sensitivity at all. Finn should find his own strengths and his own path, rather than trailing along after Rey to be Luke's apprentices.

[Watcher0363]

Couple of things.  I've seen multiple people say that the prequel trilogy ruined the Jedi by having too many of them, but I don't think that's where they went wrong.  The prequels stumbled from terrible dialogue, an even worse love story, and the midichlorians.  At its height, the Jedi had approximately 10,000+ members in a galaxy of over 1 trillion souls, that's not too many.  And maybe it's because I grew up with the prequels instead of the originals, but I thought it was fitting that the there were so many Jedi.  We're supposed to see the Jedi Order at its height, followed by its tragic fall into near extinction.  The story of the prequels would be diminished if you only had 10 Jedi that were then killed.  And if you wanted to get meta about, perhaps removing the mystical-ness of the Jedi was one of the thrusts of the Prequels.  Yoda and Mace Windu straight up said their ability to use the Force had diminished.  

 

And even if you think 10,000 Jedi was too much, I think the argument that having three Jedi instead of two Jedi is too much is a weak one.  We already saw Luke vanquish (with a lot of help) the Emperor and Vader as a sole Jedi.  It's established that Luke's first school of Jedi ended in disaster.  I think it would make sense for this trilogy to end with the proper reestablishment of the Jedi Order, and to do that you'll need more than two Jedi.

 

I also think that Finn becoming a Jedi could be more interesting than Rey becoming a Jedi, or could at least set up a nicely contrasting storyline.  Finn could become a Kyle Katarn-like character who like Finn was an excellent Stormtrooper but later became disillusioned with the Empire.  Kyle discovers his Force Sensitivity on his own and is partially self-taught.  He also fulfilled the everyman role, one of his famous quotes was "I'm no Jedi.  I'm just a guy with a lightsaber and a few questions."  I think Finn and Rey taking different paths to becoming a Jedi could be interesting with Rey being the naturally gifted Force prodigy whereas Finn has to put in much more work than Rey to get to the same level of competence.  I mean, for two trilogies we've seen the hero/Force prodigy come from a desert planet, I think it would be more interesting to see a Stormtrooper become a Jedi as it's something we've never seen before.  

 

What I want to see in the sequels is Finn and Rey standing as equals, because as of right now, it's definitely imbalanced in favor of Rey.  And I'm not arguing that Rey should be brought down, I want Finn to rise, classic zero to hero.

 

For me, my favorite shot of the movie is on Jakku where the camera pulls back and reveals the size of the Star Destroyer compared to Rey.

I really like your post. You grasp the numbers game of a galaxy size story. Considering a regular Star Destroyer has about 40,000 persons and a Super Star Destroyer has over 300,000 persons, 10,000 Jedi spread out through the galaxy would not even register to most people in the galaxy. The Jedi were tools of the old Republic and the centers of power. The further you got away from the center of power the fewer people who would have heard of the Jedi. The Jedi were more myth than reality at the beginning of episode 4. Also it did not help that many of the best Jedi were killed going on a special mission to the edges of the galaxy right before episode 1. Or so the old canon goes.

 

I think it is a shame that in this universe, that Luke so completely failed in his efforts to rebuild the Jedi.

[ulkis]

Just saw this movie last week for the first time. 

 

And I know I am in the vast minority in this.  And that most of my friends think I am cray-cray.  Ok, they probably knew that one before.  :)  But while I liked most of the film (especially the young leads), I can't get over this one thing..

 

They killed Han Solo!  You bastards!

 

Yeah, I feel the same. It is a good movie, but emotionally there are some things I don't like it just cause darn it. And it's not about the extended universe cause I didn't like that either, was glad they declared it not-canon. And one of the reasons I didn't like the EU was because of Han and Leia's son going dark side. Just because, I dunno, you have a family with superpowers who tend to go super evil every other generation, I kinda wouldn't blame everyone else in Star Wars if they wanted to kill off all the skywalkers to prevent any other Darth whoevers.

 

I think it is a shame that in this universe, that Luke so completely failed in his efforts to rebuild the Jedi.

 

Yeah, that's my other emotional thing that bothers me about the movie. There's no reason they couldn't have Luke re-build them and then something threatens them and the new generation of heroes comes about that way. I mean, he could still end up doing that (and I hope he does), but like, I said, it's just my gut emotional reaction. I guess they did have a few years of success at least before stupid emo Kylo Ren came and ruined everything.

[ulkis]

2) I must be the only person who doesn't like the final shot. The whole time they were circling I was thinking "Just grab the damn lightsaber Luke" I didn't like how the ending was a cliff hanger. The previous six movies all ended with a definite ending. Even Empire concluded. Even if Chewie and Lando were flying away to another adventure. The beginning of ach movie didn't need to start with the end of the previous movie. But now Rey and Luke will be standing on that cliff for 18 months, and Episode VIII needs to begin with some sort of resolution to the cliff top stand off.

 

It doesn't have to, I don't think. They could easily skip straight to Rey being trained by Luke or what have you. I don't think will, but they definitely could.

[ulkis]

Obi-Wan is asexual. I'd like to see how that happened.

I agree, too that Leia would have been more likely to call a son of hers Bail or Obi-Wan than Ben. I think they borrowed from the EU without thinking it through.

I read a fanfic that had Leia suggesting Obi-Wan and Han saying no son of his would be named Obi-Wan, so that covered that for me.

[Perfect Xero]

Once I thought about it, I realized that Obi-Wan, and Leia's message to him, is the reason that Leia and Han first met and he sacrificed himself to stall Vader when they were escaping the Death Star. In that respect I think it's pretty fitting that they would name their child after him.

[Danny Franks]

I'm guessing that 'Ben' is as much an easter egg for Harrison Ford's real son as it is a reference to Ben Kenobi. Honestly, I agree that he should have been called Bail, after the man who raised Leia and died needlessly so Tarkin could be a dick.

 

But I don't think Kylo Ren's real name is going to matter to this trilogy any more than Darth Vader's real name did. He's proved that he is fully embracing the dark side, and his new fetish identity. As soon as Leia understands that, Ben needs to be spoken of no more.

[Joe]

The name Bail Organa is never actually spoken in the movies. No, not even AOTC or ROTS. Whereas there's a big deal made about Ben. They probably went with what was better known, and also a regular name in our current society.

[benteen]

I then the use of the name Ben was to be an emotional easter egg for the audience.  I get that.  But Bail Solo should have been Kylo Ren's real name.

 

In typical Star Wars form, Leia's father is never addressed by his first name in the little time that he had in the prequels.  Star Wars could be so strange with names.  Leia's last name is never mentioned in the entire original trilogy.  The first time we hear it is in The Force Awakens.  The Emperor's last name is never mentioned in ROTJ.  Mace Windu's first name is never mentioned in the prequel trilogy.  Boba Fett is only called "bounty hunter" in ESB (though his name is mentioned twice in a deleted scene).  Shmi Skywalker's first name is never mentioned in TPM (again, a deleted scene).  GL had a weird aversion to mentioning character names in his movies.

 

EDIT: Looks like me and you were on the same page on this one, Joe.

Edited January 27, 2016 by benteen

[absnow54]

I thought in The Phantom Menace when announcing the candidates for Supreme Chancellor they name Senator Bail Organa or Alderaan, but I may be wrong. 

[SeanC]

It was Bail Antilles.

[JessePinkman]

Can you imagine Han yelling "BAIL!"? I'd expect Kylo to respond "So...I should go? I mean, you stopped me."

[benteen]

Heheh.  Yeah.  Bail would have been a very awkward thing to have shouted out.  Another reason for naming the kid Ben.