Star Wars: The Force Awakens (2015)

[Lugal]

3 hours ago, Kromm said:

Question: Is this post concurrent with when you actually saw it (recently) or did you see it late last year/early this year and are posting about an experience back from then?

I'm curious, because having read the Zahn book would tend to peg you as a SW superfan, whereas only seeing TFA now, 3/4 of a year later would do the very opposite. 

BTW: I DO agree with most of what you actually said. Add to that, to me the biggest issue is that they saw the reactions to the prequels and emerged with the notion that those mainly failed because they weren't enough like the original films. In other words, a vast oversimplification of why those failed. So they awkwardly constructed a sequel that was nothing but loose, badly implemented parallels to A New Hope.  And frankly... people "fell" for it (so psyched to see practical effects--which WERE really good, and the original cast, that most of them happily ignored the endless number of flaws). 

The only truly great "new" thing in the film was Daisy Ridley, who in the midst of a script that didn't deserve it, turned out a performance that totally worked. Boyega was good too, but the problem with his role is that it seemed like an awkward insertion--his character was actually something that doesn't really parallel anything in the original, but because so much else in the film was stuck in that mode, it wound up feeling like his role was just to give Rey someone to play her scenes off of. I mean the idea that the Stormtroopers under those helmets had lives and identities is a good one, but also a wasted one if it isn't central to why things are happening in the movie. The Imperials by and large were faceless (and mostly voiceless) in the originals for good reason. They were standins for Nazis (even the name "Stormtrooper" was all about that). If you dig into that an explore it, then it can't simply be a side-story which just supplies character moments. It's got to feed into the main plot too, and I don't think it did.

I've said it before here, but Kylo Ren was just the pits. Whiny and emo does not work for a villain. And if we were supposed to feel a conflict between light and dark, it failed, because we were absent any images of why anyone viewing should want any fate for him other than a lightsaber to the brain. Han and Leia TALKING about their lost kid, and us finding out its him, didn't have any resonance other than us feeling sorry for Han and Leia for losing the decedent lottery and popping out a total loser. I hate to mention it (because it goes totally against the narrative structure of any previous Star Wars) but some freaking FLASHBACKS might have actually helped. We needed a connection with Ben Solo to not be totally disgusted with Kylo Ren. And we didn't get one. 

I saw the movie about a month ago.  While I am a fan of SW, I would not call myself a superfan.  I've always been more into Star Trek than Star Wars (but don't get me started on Abrams Trek movies).

I agree with pretty much everything you said as well.  Looking back at the prequels, they had some really good ideas, I think they just bungled the execution.  This new movie has no real new ideas, and any that appeared, like the the identity of a Stormtrooper being a real person came up because they needed a companion for Rey.  It even lacked the grand sense of scale of the originals and the prequels.  At the very beginning of A New Hope we all remember seeing that huge Star Destroyer fly overhead.  There is nothing, save for a few vistas on Jakku, that gives any sense of scale.  When the Starkiller attacks, we see a beam shoot out and destroy some planets.  Are they in the same system?  Light years away?

Kylo Ren is a very weak villain.  He was upset enough to hack up the bridge with his lightsaber, in front of his crew.  Any villain that can be rattled and lose control to that degree is not that big of a threat. Vader was scary because he was so in control.  He casually force-choked the one imperial without any emotion, and only stopped when Tarkin told him to.  Even then he wasn't upset about it.  The Emperor too was in control, watching his plans play out exactly as he foresaw them until Vader threw him down the reactor shaft.

[VCRTracking]

I liked it for the funnier moments like the two Stormtroopers walking down the hallway, see Kylo Ren having a tantrum and then slowly backing away and walking the other direction.

People act like it was by accident that Kylo Ren came off the way he did as a Vader imitator when I'm pretty sure it was the intention.

[Kromm]

40 minutes ago, VCRTracking said:

I liked it for the funnier moments like the two Stormtroopers walking down the hallway, see Kylo Ren having a tantrum and then slowly backing away and walking the other direction.

People act like it was by accident that Kylo Ren came off the way he did as a Vader imitator when I'm pretty sure it was the intention.

It's not the job of an audience to play catch up to a badly communicated intention. 

Or rather... I agree it's supposed to be clear that Kylo Ren isn't Vadar. But the movie and the plot comes off as... small... if the threat he represents centers around whether or not he overcomes what a whiny little brat he is. Sure, anonymous plants full of people are being murdered in the background, but that's a person pushing a button. 

Again, it would have required bucking the formula from the original (where we don't really get to see The Emperor in detail until later) to fix this. As I think it may have actually required flashbacks to help us identify with and feel an actual loss of Ben Solo, we also needed more (and less ridiculously realized) Snoke up front. If Kylo Ren couldn't be the villain the movie needed--the one with the real sense of menace--then we needed a more realistic (non-Wizard of Ozed) Snoke down on a human-sized-identifiable level to convey that instead. Kylo Ren could be allowed to be a little ridiculous, as he came off, if Snoke wasn't. 

[brgjoe]

I think that scene of Han being killed by Ren was supposed to make him into this uber villain now.  We're supposed to think, "See, he had some conflicts with good and evil, but he killed his daddy so...now he is...truly...EVVVVVVVVIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIILLLLLLLLLL!"   I kept hearing how it was such a big, dramatic, turning point for his character and the film.  All it did for me was pizz me off.

From that point onward, I was pretty much done with the movie.  I was so angry that they off'ed a beloved character like Han Solo at the hands of a whiny, weak, emo-type villain.  Who *still* looked weak at the end after those encounters with Poe/Rey.

That's not to say I didn't like the acting from all the young stars.  They all did well with the material they were given.  It just at times almost seemed like I was watching reenactments from some romance novel.  Like we were supposed to be rooting that poor Ren, the child of Han and Leia would somehow get redeemed at the end.  But pretty much all I wanted was Chewy to use his blaster to blow up Kylo Ren's brains.

[VCRTracking]

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I think that scene of Han being killed by Ren was supposed to make him into this uber villain now.  We're supposed to think, "See, he had some conflicts with good and evil, but he killed his daddy so...now he is...truly...EVVVVVVVVIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIILLLLLLLLLL!"   I kept hearing how it was such a big, dramatic, turning point for his character and the film.  All it did for me was pizz me off.

Well, your not wrong. As JJ Abrams said after the movie came out:
 

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“Star Wars had the greatest villain in cinema history. So, how you bring a new villain into that world is a very tricky thing,” Abrams told the crowd. “We knew we needed to do something f—king bold. The only reason why Kylo Ren has any hope of being a worthy successor is because we lose one of the most beloved characters.”

 

[brgjoe]

Thanks for posting that, VCRTracking.  I kinda felt that was what they were aiming for -- good to see it confirmed. 

And it was a point of contention for some of my friends who I went to see it with.  Most agreed with JJ and that felt it was a powerful scene.  I was actually in the minority there.  Maybe a part of it was, I went to the movie unspoiled and had no idea that was going to happen.  And a couple of my friends did know and perhaps had some time to process it a bit before going.

All I know is I am still angry/annoyed/upset at the way it happened.  I might have felt differently if Kylo Ren had been built up as something other than a whiny Vader-wannabe. 

I am not sure I'll see the next installment in theaters.  Yes, I am that pizzed off.  But not that it will matter.  I'm sure it'll make 485 gazillion dollars anyway.  :)

[Zuleikha]

And frankly... people "fell" for it (so psyched to see practical effects--which WERE really good, and the original cast, that most of them happily ignored the endless number of flaws).

Having a different emotional response than you did does not mean that people "fell" for tricks in the movie. It means the movie worked for many of us and succeeded at the story it was trying to tell. Given the positive word of mouth, undeniable box office success, amount of merch moved, it is clear that Abrams succeeded at telling a story that resonated with many, many people. You're not more clear eyed about the movie simply because you weren't one of them.

[VCRTracking]

All movies have flaws. If I like a movie, if it works for me, I'm going to overlook most of them. If I don't like a movie, I'm going to nitpick and complain and criticize it.

[GHScorpiosRule]

Now JJ Abrams may think that having Kylo Ren kill Han, his father, makes him a "worthy successor" but I don't agree with him. Because what I saw on my screen? He didn't earn it. I agree with @Kromm, that seeing flashbacks migh have helped me to see why he turned and, especially why he hated his father so much.  And I didn't believe he was in pain or conflicted right before he stabbed and murdered his father. I thought it was all a con to make Han come closer, so that that he'd be able to see the look on Han's face when he killed him.

But that's just me.

As for my original statement about how the characters/actors were more fully realized and believable--I was referring to the first movie--not the culmination of Star Wars, The Empire Strikes Back, Return of the Jedi with respect to better characterization and the lack of that in this movie.

And now I think I'll go watch Episode IV: A New Hope.

[Kromm]

1 hour ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

As for my original statement about how the characters/actors were more fully realized and believable--I was referring to the first movie--not the culmination of Star Wars, The Empire Strikes Back, Return of the Jedi with respect to better characterization and the lack of that in this movie.

And now I think I'll go watch Episode IV: A New Hope.

What many people, in my mind, are loathe to admit is that Episode IV has simple characters and a simple story... but it works because the scope of Episode IV was intentionally paralleling a movie serial. 

Although not an identical situation, it's the same reason Original Star Trek worked so well.  Things like TOS and SWIV were constructed as very simple morality plays. A viewer doesn't have to angst over motivations too deeply, because black is black and white is white, and that's just the way it is. 

Heck, we don't even get a morally complex situation until a good way through SWV, when Lando betrays them.  And even there it all works (as well as Luke's angst over who his father is), because Vadar is there so compellingly representing the bad guys. 

The Force Awakens, among other mistakes, made the same mistake in instant form that Star Trek has made in a creeping gradual form over decades. It lost it's absolutism to trying to tell a story about moral relativism. About shades of grey.  Then again, maybe the prequels already made that mistake.  FA just covered it in far better practical effects and more touchstones from the original movie.

Edited September 13, 2016 by Kromm

[VCRTracking]

Quote

As for my original statement about how the characters/actors were more fully realized and believable--I was referring to the first movie--not the culmination of Star Wars, The Empire Strikes Back, Return of the Jedi with respect to better characterization and the lack of that in this movie.

It's all relative. Negative reviews(which I don't agree with) 1977 thought the main trio were two dimensional but they were purposely archetypes. "Farmboy, princess and rogue" are easy for audiences no matter what the setting. They're backgrounds, motivations and goals are easy to figure out. I also think Mark Hamill, Carrie Fisher and Harrison Ford inhabited those characters with some of their own personalities perfectly. So much so that they've never really gotten credit on their acting in the first movie.

Rey and Finn don't really fit into simple archetypes. There's too much mystery surrounding them. Who are Rey's parents and why did they leave her behind? Why out of all the Stormtroopers did Finn decide to have a conscious? Poe is a hotshot pilot and all around good guy but as people have pointed out, not anything more than that.

Edited September 13, 2016 by VCRTracking

[DollEyes]

After seeing TFA again, I not only loved seeing the old-school characters again, it made me curious about some of the new ones. Case in point: Rey, who could be a Skywalker, a Solo, a Kenobi or None of the Above. Then there's Poe. Did Poe come from a family of pilots or is he the only one? How/why did Poe join the Resistance? 

  Then there's Finn. Where do baby Stormtroopers come from? Are they bred in a lab or are they stolen from their birth parents? How are they trained? Do they go to a special school?  Hopefully, the sequel will answer at least some of these questions. 

[Zuleikha]

The Force Awakens, among other mistakes, made the same mistake in instant form that Star Trek has made in a creeping gradual form over decades. It lost it's absolutism to trying to tell a story about moral relativism. About shades of grey.  

I don't think it's a mistake to tell a story about moral relativism, but I also don't think The Force Awakens is that story. I do think it has a stronger script with more three-dimensional writing and characters, but the main antagonists are Space Nazis. Not really what I consider a shades of grey story. Rey and Finn are the protagonists for whom we root (and Finn is a protagonist because he rejects the Stormtroopers, not because the Stormtroopers are morally ambiguous); Kylo Ren is the antagonist that we root against.

And again, TFA did not make mistakes. It is a financially successful, critically praised, generally well liked movie. I completely understand why you didn't like it given your praise of simple good/evil stories, but many of us have zero interest in stories simplified down to that level.

 Poe is a hotshot pilot and all around good guy but as people have pointed out, not anything more than that.

Poe is a memorable secondary character, not a main. People like to pretend he was a main because for all that the most consistent quibble with TFA is that it supposedly echoed A New Hope's structure too closely, people also really, really want to slot the main characters into New Leia, New Luke, and New Han. They need three characters for that, so Poe gets promoted. If any character was a third main, it was Han Solo.

[Perfect Xero]

5 hours ago, DollEyes said:

After seeing TFA again, I not only loved seeing the old-school characters again, it made me curious about some of the new ones. Case in point: Rey, who could be a Skywalker, a Solo, a Kenobi or None of the Above. Then there's Poe. Did Poe come from a family of pilots or is he the only one? How/why did Poe join the Resistance? 

  Then there's Finn. Where do baby Stormtroopers come from? Are they bred in a lab or are they stolen from their birth parents? How are they trained? Do they go to a special school?  Hopefully, the sequel will answer at least some of these questions. 

I thought they answered the baby Stormtroopers question with Finn? They're kidnapped as children and brainwashed/raised/trained by the First Order like a cross between child soldiers and Hitler Youth.

[ChelseaNH]

3 hours ago, Zuleikha said:

TFA did not make mistakes

Perfection is attainable!

[Danny Franks]

On 13/09/2016 at 9:21 PM, GHScorpiosRule said:

Now JJ Abrams may think that having Kylo Ren kill Han, his father, makes him a "worthy successor" but I don't agree with him. Because what I saw on my screen? He didn't earn it. I agree with @Kromm, that seeing flashbacks migh have helped me to see why he turned and, especially why he hated his father so much.  And I didn't believe he was in pain or conflicted right before he stabbed and murdered his father. I thought it was all a con to make Han come closer, so that that he'd be able to see the look on Han's face when he killed him.

But that's just me.

If that's what you took out of it, I don't see that it's wrong. Kylo Ren's motives for hating Han and for worshipping Vader are, as things stand, somewhat mysterious. I think it's something we'll discover through the next two movies.

I really don't think it was a problem that Abrams gave his villain an arc as well as his heroes. Because that's what Kylo Ren has. In this movie he was intimidating and capable, but brittle and with little control of his emotions. He's not a genuinely terrifying villain, because he hasn't yet become one. Just like Anakin wasn't one at the start of Revenge of the Sith. To me, the whole point of Kylo Ren in this movie was to give us a glimpse of what he's going to become, when he does complete his training and realise his potential.

I also love that Kylo Ren was not, in any way, 'cool'. Not like Vader or Boba Fett or the other villains that fans obsess over. He was a petulant, whiny, stroppy manchild who it's impossible to respect (now is that an indirect nod towards Anakin in the prequels? Probably). Unfortunately, I think they reckoned without the teenage girls who would swoon over his 'bad boy' ways and dream of Rey redeeming him. But I'm sure those kids are going to be disappointed.

I felt like Snoke was the red herring, here. The unseen, ancient and all-powerful mastermind. I think that the true moment when Kylo Ren becomes the big bad will be when he dethrones Snoke and takes command of the First Order.

[Wynterwolf]

5 hours ago, Perfect Xero said:

I thought they answered the baby Stormtroopers question with Finn? They're kidnapped as children and brainwashed/raised/trained by the First Order like a cross between child soldiers and Hitler Youth.

Yes, and there was also a very specific storyline in Star Wars: Rebels that was about the Empire seeking out and stealing force-sensitive babies from their families.  So I think the dots are easy to connect there.  

[Jediknight]

15 hours ago, Danny Franks said:

I also love that Kylo Ren was not, in any way, 'cool'. Not like Vader or Boba Fett or the other villains that fans obsess over. He was a petulant, whiny, stroppy manchild who it's impossible to respect (now is that an indirect nod towards Anakin in the prequels? Probably). Unfortunately, I think they reckoned without the teenage girls who would swoon over his 'bad boy' ways and dream of Rey redeeming him. But I'm sure those kids are going to be disappointed.

Yeah, he's not "cool" like Vader, Fett, or Maul, but he might be more terrifying than all of them.  Like you said he's a petulant whiny manchild, he throws temper tantrums when things don't go his way, he idolizes evil, he has a lot of raw power, and he lets his emotions completely control him.  I don't think it's a nod to Anakin, I've said it before, I agree that it's a nod to school shooters/mass shooters.  He has no regard for life, he's a complete sociopath, and there are rape undertones to him with the line to Rey "You know I can take whatever I want."  And he became all of that, with a family that obviously loved him and supported him every step of the way.  He didn't face the hardships that Anakin or Boba did, he didn't face what Rey, Finn, or even Poe (his mother died when he was a child) did, he would have had every advantage with his family being Han, Leia, Chewie, Luke, Lando, R2, and 3PO.

And there won't be a redemption for him, because the 2 main heroes they introduced us to, grew up with crap lives.  They rose above their circumstances, they do a redemption arc for Kylo, they'll keep it as sometimes people can rise above their circumstances growing up, and sometimes people can have all the advantages in life, and completely fall.

Edited September 15, 2016 by Jediknight

[DollEyes]

On 9/14/2016 at 5:57 PM, Perfect Xero said:

I thought they answered the baby Stormtroopers question with Finn? They're kidnapped as children and brainwashed/raised/trained by the First Order like a cross between child soldiers and Hitler Youth.

I know about that part, but what I'm curious about is the actual training itself. I would like to see a flashback scene when Finn remembers/has a nightmare about his indoctrination into the First Order Youth. 

On 9/15/2016 at 9:58 AM, Jediknight said:

Yeah, he's not "cool" like Vader, Fett, or Maul, but he might be more terrifying than all of them.  [Kylo Ren is] a petulant whiny manchild, he throws temper tantrums when things don't go his way, he idolizes evil, he has a lot of raw power, and he lets his emotions completely control him.  I don't think it's a nod to Anakin, I've said it before, I agree that it's a nod to school shooters/mass shooters.  He has no regard for life, he's a complete sociopath, and there are rape undertones to him with the line to Rey "You know I can take whatever I want."  And he became all of that, with a family that obviously loved him and supported him every step of the way.  He didn't face the hardships that Anakin or Boba did, he didn't face what Rey, Finn, or even Poe (his mother died when he was a child) did, he would have had every advantage with his family being Han, Leia, Chewie, Luke, Lando, R2, and 3PO.

And there won't be a redemption for him, because the 2 main heroes they introduced us to, grew up with crap lives.  They rose above their circumstances, they do a redemption arc for Kylo, they'll keep it as sometimes people can rise above their circumstances growing up, and sometimes people can have all the advantages in life, and completely fall.

  ITA. Kylo Ren is the perfect example of what happens when too much power falls into the worst possible hands. Finn & Rey would have loved to have had the advantages that Kylo not only took for granted, he treated them with either disrespect, utter contempt or cold-blooded murder. Kylo betrayed the parents who raised him, the uncle who trained him and memory of the Jedi whom he was named after, all of whom are/were much better than he could ever be. Kylo Ben is a disgrace to the Organa, Skywalker, Solo and Kenobi names. 

Quote

I also love that Kylo Ren was not in any way 'cool.' Not like Vader or Boba Fett or any of the other villains that fans obsess over. He was a whiny, petulant, stroppy manchild who it's impossible to respect (now is that an indirect nod towards Anakin in the prequels? Probably). Unfortunately, they reckoned without the teenage girls who would swoon over his 'bad boy' ways and dream of Rey redeeming him. But I'm sure those kids are going to be disappointed.

Re the last point, I not only expect them to be disappointed, chances are I'll love every moment of it. 

Edited September 18, 2016 by DollEyes
To add stuff.

[Danny Franks]

2 hours ago, Jediknight said:

Yeah, he's not "cool" like Vader, Fett, or Maul, but he might be more terrifying than all of them.  Like you said he's a petulant whiny manchild, he throws temper tantrums when things don't go his way, he idolizes evil, he has a lot of raw power, and he lets his emotions completely control him.  I don't think it's a nod to Anakin, I've said it before, I agree that it's a nod to school shooters/mass shooters.  He has no regard for life, he's a complete sociopath, and there are rape undertones to him with the line to Rey "You know I can take whatever I want."  And he became all of that, with a family that obviously loved him and supported him every step of the way.  He didn't face the hardships that Anakin or Boba did, he didn't face what Rey, Finn, or even Poe (his mother died when he was a child) did, he would have had every advantage with his family being Han, Leia, Chewie, Luke, Lando, R2, and 3PO.

That's exactly why I found him scary. He feels more real than some cloaked and masked villain who throws out some iconic one-liners. Yes, Vader was a great villain, one of cinema's very best, but he falls into that trap that a lot of villains do in that people like him. He's badass and impressive and you want him on your screen. The moment in Empire Strikes Back, where Lando leads them into the dining room and Vader is there? He blithely blocks Han's blaster shot and says "we would be honoured if you would join us"? I mean come on, that's amazing.

Kylo Ren has none of that. You don't want to see him do cool stuff because he's a nasty little bitch. You want to see him humiliated and see his power diminished. He's odious, in ways that Vader never was.

 

26 minutes ago, DollEyes said:

Re the last point, I not only expect them to be disappointed, chances are I'll love every moment of it. 

Oh, so will I. Kylo Ren is a character utterly without redeeming features, other than apparently being handsome and tortured (which is enough for some people to forgive anything, it seems). 

Edited September 15, 2016 by Danny Franks

[Zuleikha]

And he became all of that, with a family that obviously loved him and supported him every step of the way.  

That's why I really hope Rey is Leia/Han's daughter with memory shenanigans explaining why they didn't come back and don't recognize her. I don't want their only child to be Kylo Ren because I don't want him to be redeemed. 

I don't think redemption is necessarily off the table for him, though. There's still a lot of his story and Snoke's story that we don't know. It's not impossible the remaining two movies can take him towards redemption. But I think it will be a gutsier story if they don't. 

[ChelseaNH]

On recent rewatch, it struck me that Kylo Ren's main flaw is that he keeps trying to be someone else, and therefore has never been himself.  I suspect he grew up measuring himself against his parents and uncle, and when he decided he couldn't be them (for whatever reason), he threw himself into becoming his grandfather.  If this is the case, then what would redemption look like?  I'm not fond of ye olde split-personality trope -- "It was Kylo Ren who did all of those horrible things, but I'm Ben" -- because that's a negation of responsibility; Kylo Ren wasn't a psychic parasite who took over Ben's brain functions.  The standard dramatic solution would be for Ben to reject his Kylo Ren persona and sacrifice himself as a form of redemption, which is essentially what Vader did.

[VCRTracking]

I realized this about Kylo. As we've seen Skywalker males are whiny and petulant when they're young,(Luke was 19 in A New Hope, Anakin the same age in Episode II) but they eventually grow out of it. Luke matured. Vader did too. He may have turned to the Dark Side, but he acts like an adult, not at all like his younger self. Han Solo never really matured, even into old age, but he's not whiny. So you combine these traits and you get Kylo Ren, a person who throws tantrums when things don't go his way, even though he must be pushing 30.

Edited September 16, 2016 by VCRTracking

[Jediknight]

18 hours ago, DollEyes said:

ITA. Kylo Ren is the perfect example of what happens when too much power falls into the worst possible hands.

Yeah, Anakin was whiny but he could handle that power.  He showed it especially as Vader, he could control that power and didn't let his emotions control him.  He was cold and imposing, which is scary, but you could have a handle on what Vader would do.  He wasn't deserving of that power because of his actions.  Kylo is not mature enough for that power, and there's no way to predict how he's going to react to something.  Kylo's not deserving of that power because of his actions, but because he isn't mature enough for it, and he can't handle it.

1 hour ago, VCRTracking said:

I realized this about Kylo. As we've seen Skywalker males are whiny and petulant when they're young,(Luke was 19 in A New Hope, Anakin the same age in Episode II) but they eventually grow out of it. Luke matured. Vader did too. He may have turned to the Dark Side, but he acts like an adult, not at all like his younger self. Han Solo never really matured, even into old age, but he's not whiny. So you combine these traits and you get Kylo Ren, a person who throws tantrums when things don't go his way, even though he must be pushing 30.

I disagree, Han matured.  He came back at the end of A New Hope, joined the Rebellion, went out looking for Luke on Hoth, told Chewie that he had to take care of Leia now, forgave Lando for letting Vader in, after being saved from Jabba he told Luke "Now I owe you one", and in Force Awakens he wasn't bothered by 3PO.  Han matured, and put others before himself.

[VCRTracking]

Han obviously changed and became a less selfish person. It's not really being an adult but being not a jerk. That was his big arc.  He's still kind of a big kid,  but he's a kid in that he's fun and not too serious and not the sullen and emo way. That's what we like about him.

[GHScorpiosRule]

All I know is, that Jones's Vader scared the bejesus out of me when I watched him on the big screen. Then, as an adult, he still scared me--I never liked him. I may have thought he was cool--but in the way of "Now this is what a villain is like/should be like!" 

I even watched those dreaded prequels to "see" how he was "seduced to the Dark Side" as that was what the original trilogy kept saying about Anakin. Instead, I saw a whiny petulant little shit. Well, whaddya know? Kylo Ren comes by his petulance naturally. Yet Anakin's descent to Vader--though he wasn't as scary as he was once he became Vader, I could see shades of who he would become, and naturally, for me, the saving grace of that awful, awful movie was hearing James Earl Jones's voice at the end.

So, no. From where I sit, I'm not interested in any kind of redemption for Kylo Ren. I'm sick of redemption for villains. I wasn't looking or wanting it for Anakin/Vader, either. I just wish Villains would just stay villains and get their fucking comeuppances!

Edited September 16, 2016 by GHScorpiosRule

[VCRTracking]

Also I noticed watching it again at the beginning when Poe is brought before him on his knees, Kylo gets down on one knee so he can be at eye level him. Vader would never do that. First, the only person Vader kneels to is the Emperor. Second, Vader would always be standing over an enemy. Vader uses his height to intimidate. People have to look up at him. Kylo getting so close allowed Poe to make cracks at his expense.

Edited September 16, 2016 by VCRTracking

[ulkis]

I've been thinking about it, and while I don't necessarily think Kylo Ren should be insta-redeemed at the end of the trilogy like Vader, I do think there should be potential redemption. Like at the end he goes to wander the galaxy in repentance, or something, or exiles himself. Pretty much only for Leia's sake, not because I think he deserves it.

Edited September 18, 2016 by ulkis

[ulkis]

On 9/15/2016 at 2:28 PM, Zuleikha said:

That's why I really hope Rey is Leia/Han's daughter with memory shenanigans explaining why they didn't come back and don't recognize her. I don't want their only child to be Kylo Ren because I don't want him to be redeemed. 

I don't think redemption is necessarily off the table for him, though. There's still a lot of his story and Snoke's story that we don't know. It's not impossible the remaining two movies can take him towards redemption. But I think it will be a gutsier story if they don't. 

Yeah, if Rey is Han and Leia's daughter, I don't mind Kylo Ren getting not getting redeemed. 

Also random, but it's also a pet peeve when people say Rey has to be Luke's daughter because the movies are about Skywalkers. Rey is a Skywalker whether she's Luke or Leia's daughter. 

[DollEyes]

On 9/16/2016 at 6:31 AM, Jediknight said:

 Han matured.  He came back at the end of A New Hope, joined the Rebellion, went out looking for Luke on Hoth, told Chewie that he had to take care of Leia now, forgave Lando for letting Vader in, after being saved from Jabba he told Luke "Now I owe you one", and in Force Awakens he wasn't bothered by 3PO.  Han matured, and put others before himself.

  Han also agreed to help Finn & Rey return BB-8 to the Resistance, initially criticized Finn's going to rescue Rey for selfish reasons by reminding him that the galaxy was counting on them only to help him capture Captain Phasma and tried to save Kylo Ben from the Dark Side, only to learn it was in vain in the worst way possible. 

17 minutes ago, ulkis said:

I've been thinking about it, and while I don't necessarily think Kylo Ren should be insta-redeemed at the end of the trilogy like Vader, I do think there should be potential redemption. Like at the end he goes to wander the galaxy in repentance, or something, or exiles himself. Star Wars is about hope, and if Leia's only son never redeems himself/is killed, that's such a shit story for her.

I respectfully disagree. Given all his crimes, IMO Vader earned the little redemption he got by sacrificing himself to save Luke and since Kylo Ben killed his own father in cold blood-something that Luke wouldn't do to Vader, nor vice versa-death is the only redemption for him, as far as I'm concerned. 

[ulkis]

On 9/11/2016 at 6:40 PM, GHScorpiosRule said:

 I just finished watching it, and I'm so disappointed that I found it underwhelming. I wanted to love this movie; I expected  to love this movie, but I didn't.

I liked it once I reconciled myself that it wasn't anywhere near what I thought it was going to be, but I still would have preferred for a them to have established the new republic and then, a new threat came.

[GHScorpiosRule]

So, I went online to see Anakin "turn into Dark Vader" and it hit me--and I admit I wasn't really paying attention the first time I watched it, because the whole movie was such a letdown--why didn't they get David Prowse to do the walk? Christiansen's Vader is a good five to six inches too short! Prowse is still among us, and he's 6'6" without the wee heel of the Vader boots. So Vader didn't look that intimidating, and his immense height, for me, was part of what made him scary.

And I'm posting it here, since we've been talking about the different Vaders, if you will. Unless Prowse declined, the costume people should have provided "lifts." Just sayin'

[VCRTracking]

Prowse got on Lucas' bad side since Return of the Jedi in 1983(conflicting reasons you can look up online). There was no way Lucas was bringing him back for Revenge of the Sith, even for a few minutes of screen time. I don't think he's allowed at any of the official Lucasfilm events. Anyway Vader waking up in his new form is supposed to be awkward. I read someone say it was a cross between "Bambi learning to walk" and "Frankenstein" and I think that's appropriate. Someone goes through a huge physical change like that(with new longer, mechanical legs), I don't expect him to be that imposing right away even if it's Vader.

I think Palpatine doesn't look shorter than Vader at the end of Sith because he was stooping in Jedi. When Palpatine and Anakin are standing together earlier when they both looked human, Anakin was just a couple of inches taller. When they're standing next to each other on the bridge Episode III, Vader looks almost a head taller.

Edited September 20, 2016 by VCRTracking

[bunnyblue]

I finally got around to watching TFA. I was avoiding watching it because I couldn't watch Han die (at the hands of his son, no less!) but his death wasn't as terrible as I'd imagined. Still sucks though, since I won't ever get a Luke, Leia, and Han reunion.  Sigh. I hope I'm not cheated out of at least a Luke and Leia scene in future movies. I loved Chewie and BB8. Threepio was eh.

I adored Daisy Ridley's Rey. I'm a sap, so I want her to be a Skywalker. Last year, I was sure she'd turn out to be Kylo's twin but now I'm leaning towards her being Luke's daughter. I read a theory that, after destroying Luke's Jedi Academy, it was Kylo who took Rey and hid her on Jakku (for reasons, lol). That's why, when he heard BB8 was in the company of a girl from Jakku, he knew who he was dealing with. And that's also why Han and Leia didn't recognize her - because they all thought Luke's daughter died years ago. Or something like that. I thought it was interesting and plausible. 

Anyway, I have a question. After Han's death and Chewie, Finn, and Rey return to the rebel base, Leia comes out to greet them and (after not hugging Chewie, hmph!) she goes to Rey and hugs her. At first I thought it was sweet but then I was like "wait, they're total strangers, they haven't even been introduced, so why are they embracing like they know each other?". Before Han left, Leia referred to Rey as "the girl", and as far as I could tell Rey wouldn't know Leia from Mon Mothma. So what the hell was that about??

[VCRTracking]

JJ Abrams explanation from last spring:

Quote

That was probably one of the mistakes I made in that. My thinking at the time was that Chewbacca, despite the pain he was feeling, was focused on trying to save Finn and getting him taken care of. So I tried to have Chewbacca go off with him and focus on Rey, and then have Rey find Leia and Leia find Rey. The idea being that both of them being strong with the Force and never having met, would know about each other — that Leia would have been told about her beyond what we saw onscreen and Rey of course would have learned about Leia. And that reunion would be a meeting and a reunion all in one, and a sort of commiseration of their mutual loss.

I don't really buy that. It should have Rey should have been the one making sure Finn got medical treatment and Leia hugging Chewie over their mutual loss not some girl who barely knew Han. It only works for me if Rey is somehow connected to the Skywalkers.

Edited September 24, 2016 by VCRTracking

[Perfect Xero]

I don't think it can really work even if she is connected to the Skywalkers

Oddly enough the whole thing has ended up being this movie's version of Chewie getting snubbed at the medal ceremony after they blew up the Death Star ANH.

[Morrigan2575]

Agreed, it felt odd, should have been Chewie/Leia and Rey/Finn. However, I could seriously see it working IF Rey was secretly a Skywalker or Solo.  

[BooBear]

I finally saw this. I stupidly listened to all the people who panned it. Yes was it a similar story to a new hope... yes.. but not that similar.  I enjoyed just about everything. It seemed obvious that Leia had probably already hugged Chewy off camera and then left him and went to console Ray.  I am not sure why Ray is so powerful but I am interested in finding out and will only be disappointed if they don't have a good answer for it.  My biggest quibble was Luke. It just seemed super odd the way he took his hood off and kind of left his arms up and stuck out his chest. Not sure what the meaning of that was if any but I wonder if they weren't trying to make it vague and it just came off weird. I particularly enjoyed Finn and Ray. I though they had great chemistry and Finn was genuinely funny a lot. 

Edited October 9, 2016 by BooBear

[VCRTracking]

Quote

 My biggest quibble was Luke. It just seemed super odd the way he took his hood off and kind of left his arms up and stuck out his chest. Not sure what the meaning of that was if any but I wonder if they weren't trying to make it vague and it just came off weird.

I think it was more Mark Hamill was like "I have only one minute of screentime at the end of this entire movie and no dialogue, I am still going to act the HELL out of it!

Edited October 10, 2016 by VCRTracking

[absnow54]

He had to earn that second billing somehow!

[VCRTracking]

Spoiler warning for those who haven't seen TFA.

From USA Today:

Exclusive: J.J. Abrams explains that fateful 'Force Awakens' meeting
 

Quote

 

The 3D collector's edition of The Force Awakens rolls out internationally Oct. 31 and arrives in the USA Nov. 15, and in this exclusive commentary from director J.J. Abrams, he explains the underlying emotion of that fateful meeting:

"People have asked me if I think that Kylo Ren was just playing with him the whole time, if he meant to kill him from the beginning. And the truth is, I think Kylo Ren, in this moment, is actually being convinced to walk away from this. Snoke is, as Han says, using him, and I think that somewhere Ben knows this. But I think that he can't accept it. Deep down, he has gone too far."

 

ETA: Another clip with Abrams commentary, from the duel between Kylo Ren and Rey:

Read more at http://www.hitfix.com/harpy/the-force-awakens-commentary-proves-not-all-reshoots-are-a-bad-sign#MwbS0TAHlv4plpZq.99

Quote

“I showed an early cut to my friend Ava DuVernay and she had a bunch of great suggestions. One of them was that she really wanted to see Daisy, in her attack on Ren coming up, to have one really cool moment. I'll show you the shot we ended up getting per her suggestion. But we always had this moment [Kylo and Rey close quarters] from when we shot it originally, and this used to be where she called him a monster and then pushed back. But instead we shot this and had her take this moment of hearing the Force and thinking about what Maz had told her about closing her eyes and letting it in. And so she has this incredibly internal moment that is extended in movie time where she basically feels it, accepts it, and is now ready to kick his ass. So here's the shot we got from the reshoots, this one here [Rey kicks Kylo back] Boom! It was a little thing but it really connects you to her intensity."

Edited October 20, 2016 by VCRTracking

[ulkis]

This is really random but I wonder why they they decided Finn should have an American and let Rey keep RD's accent. It feels like it should have been the other way around.

[SnoGirl]

10 minutes ago, ulkis said:

This is really random but I wonder why they they decided Finn should have an American and let Rey keep RD's accent. It feels like it should have been the other way around.

My head-canon is its because she's a Kenobi.

It's probably because JJ Abrams was mirroring Star Wars, and because the story circled around Luke and Obi-Wan who had American and British accents. I keep hoping there is a cool reason why she has an accent and Finn doesn't. 

[ulkis]

Just now, SnoGirl said:

My head-canon is its because she's a Kenobi.

It's probably because JJ Abrams was mirroring Star Wars, and because the story circled around Luke and Obi-Wan who had American and British accents. I keep hoping there is a cool reason why she has an accent and Finn doesn't. 

I was thinking more along the lines though that characters with the Empire in the original trilogy usually had English accents and the Skywalkers (I don't think she's related to Obi-Wan) had American ones. Not that one can't have a different accent from their parents obviously, but because of that, just thought it was odd that if they were going to ask one of the actors to put on an American accent, they chose JB.

[TVSpectator]

8 minutes ago, SnoGirl said:

My head-canon is its because she's a Kenobi.

It's probably because JJ Abrams was mirroring Star Wars, and because the story circled around Luke and Obi-Wan who had American and British accents. I keep hoping there is a cool reason why she has an accent and Finn doesn't. 

 

 

I have grown to learn that American and English accents are weird for this franchise, and really doesn't make much sense unless you realized that the actors  are allowed probably just allowed  to speak in their native accents. If I remember this correctly Carry Fisher first did a British accent and then an American accent (which would be her native accent) for Princess Leia. You can literally hear it change over to American in the original films. Although the common idea, that some fans still hold is that the British accents (or posh) accents are for the inner core worlds, while the American accents are for the more outer worlds. But this movie introduced a Scottish accent and where the hell does it fall within the Inner/Outer Worlds theory?

Edited December 1, 2016 by TVSpectator

[SnoGirl]

8 minutes ago, ulkis said:

I was thinking more along the lines though that characters with the Empire in the original trilogy usually had English accents and the Skywalkers (I don't think she's related to Obi-Wan) had American ones. Not that one can't have a different accent from their parents obviously, but because of that, just thought it was odd that if they were going to ask one of the actors to put on an American accent, they chose JB.

Makes you wonder who these crazy kids belong to ;) I'm hoping that neither of them are Skywalkers because then one family really messed up the galaxy.

4 minutes ago, TVSpectator said:

I have grown to learn that American and English accents are weird for this franchise, and really doesn't make much sense unless you realized that the actors  are allowed probably just allowed  to speak in their native accents. If I remember this correctly Carry Fisher first did a British accent and then an American accent (which would be her native accent) for Princess Leia. You can literally hear it change over to American in the original films. Although the common idea, that some fans still hold is that the British accents (or posh) accents are for the inner core worlds, while the American accents are for the more outer worlds. But this movie introduced a Scottish accent and where the hell does it fall within the Inner/Outer Worlds theory?

Kenobi! Kenobi! Kenobi! Hahaha, I jest, but I'm hoping, which I'm sure we will, we find out everything about their lineage. Maybe the Scottish accents are the outers of the inner world? Like how people can be extroverted introverts. The Scottish accents came from the people on the fringe.

[TVSpectator]

9 minutes ago, SnoGirl said:

Makes you wonder who these crazy kids belong to ;) I'm hoping that neither of them are Skywalkers because then one family really messed up the galaxy.

Kenobi! Kenobi! Kenobi! Hahaha, I jest, but I'm hoping, which I'm sure we will, we find out everything about their lineage. Maybe the Scottish accents are the outers of the inner world? Like how people can be extroverted introverts. The Scottish accents came from the people on the fringe.

 

 

 

I thought that the fringes were supposed to be  American accents- with a bit of that southern/country twang intermix with it? As with McGregor, he did do a British accent for his role but that could be because he was trying to match up with Alec Guinness (who used his native English accent).

Edited December 1, 2016 by TVSpectator

[SnoGirl]

Just now, TVSpectator said:

I thought that the fringes were supposed to be  American accents- with a bit of that southern/country twang intermix with it? As with McGregor, he did do a British accent for his role but that could be because he was trying to match up with Alec Guinness (who used his native English accent).

 

I mean like between the inner planets and outer planets. So they would be the fringe of the inner but before the outer. Lol, I sound ridiculous tonight.

I did think McGregor sounded like Guinness, and I missed his Scottish accent. McGregor is one of my favorite actors and I loved that he's in the Star War Verse, even though I'm not a huge fan of the prequels.

[TVSpectator]

5 minutes ago, SnoGirl said:

I mean like between the inner planets and outer planets. So they would be the fringe of the inner but before the outer. Lol, I sound ridiculous tonight.

I did think McGregor sounded like Guinness, and I missed his Scottish accent. McGregor is one of my favorite actors and I loved that he's in the Star War Verse, even though I'm not a huge fan of the prequels.

 

 

I think those could be called, "in between places" but who knows if there is an official name for them. All I really care for is Mandalore, go Mandalore!

 

 

Plus, I don't know about you but I could swear that Natalie Portman trying to do a British accent. 

 

Edited December 1, 2016 by TVSpectator

[SnoGirl]

7 minutes ago, TVSpectator said:

I think those could be called, "in between places" but who knows if there is an official name for them. All I really care for is Mandalore, go Mandalore!

Plus, I don't know about you but I could swear that Natalie Portman was channeling a British accent. 

 

In between places! I love it! And if you think about it, Rey's been stuck in the between. Not moving backwards or forwards, just stuck until her family comes and rescues her from Jakku.

Well, until she rescued herself.