Race & Ethnicity On TV

[Trini]

 

And now the producers and writers of The Flash are hinting that Barry, the lead, may have a thing for Caitlin, his co-worker, and Iris may not be the end game.

 

Where have you seen/heard them hinting? Because I've only seen support for Barry/Caitlyn from online fans. I honestly don't think the writers have even thought about Barry/Caitlyn. For this season at least, it seems established that Barry will pine after Iris, and Caitlyn will continue to mourn for Ronnie.

[Wax Lion]

It seems early to say that they're pulling focus away from Iris as Barry's love. In the comics, Iris and Barry have such a history that it's going to be hard to keep any comics reader from seeing them as endgame. It's like watching Lois flirt with Lex.

[xaxat]

Pacodakat, while I don't share your perspective on where Barry/Iris is headed, I totally understand your apprehension. 

 

As an African American male, I am especially sensitive to potential Black Man Dies First (I'm looking at you 12 Monkeys) situations. So much so, that my friends (justifiably) make fun of me.

[Pacodakat]

Are you watching "Empire"?

 

Yes, I am and I'm so glad Taraji is killing it on Empire. She was marginalized on Person of Interest.

 

Where have you seen/heard them hinting? Because I've only seen support for Barry/Caitlyn from online fans. I honestly don't think the writers have even thought about Barry/Caitlyn. For this season at least, it seems established that Barry will pine after Iris, and Caitlyn will continue to mourn for Ronnie

The writers were at a Television conference last week TCA's? and they made some comments responding to post that Grant Gustin retweeted  about Iris and Barry. He supported the relationship. Tom Cavanagh also made comment that he was happy that the show isn't leaning on will they wont they w/this romance..... but the writers implied that Caitlin and maybe felicity are still in the mix. They were treating Barry like a prize these ladies had to land. They also implied that he "may" move on. I know that they are teasing and drawing this out for suspense purposes and they may just put Iris and Barry together at the end of the series or maybe two or three episodes later but the fact that they are pushing his co-worker who has a unrequited storyline of her own in this mix is frustrating. I don't trust the writers. If they want to keep Iris and Barry apart for awhile they may pair up Barry with God knows how many women. Iris may be killed by the reverse flash because that's not out of the realm of possibility. she may be the motivator for Barry to become faster.( I have no comic book knowledge or spoiler episode knowledge). When it comes to women of color in television I just don't trust the people in charge.

How many people of color have we seen sacrificing themselves for the love of the White characters? I'm not even going to go into Tara on True Blood. I actively hate the showrunner for the complete break down of that character.

 

It seems early to say that they're pulling focus away from Iris as Barry's love. In the comics, Iris and Barry have such a history that it's going to be hard to keep any comics reader from seeing them as endgame. It's like watching Lois flirt with Lex.

 

I don't know..... the television adaptations can be very different from the comics from what I hear. Look, I will be ecstatic if I'm wrong and misunderstanding what is happening with what the writers are implying. I will dance a jig if I see Barry and Iris's romance slowly build. I. don't. trust. the. writers. This is a popular show. They've already subverted expectations making the character of Iris Black, do you think they will go all the way? Scandal has changed a lot on tv so I hope I'm wrong.

Edited January 23, 2015 by Pacodakat

[Trini]

 

... but the writers implied that Caitlin and maybe felicity are still in the mix. They were treating Barry like a prize these ladies had to land. They also implied that he "may" move on. ...

 

Okay, I now remember that quote you're talking about. But I still wouldn't worry yet. I think they were just being coy at best, and shipper-baiting at worst. And specifically, they were probably teasing Barry "moving on" by

him going out on a date with Linda Park (another comics character)

in an upcoming episode.

 

Maybe I'm just chill because I've already seen these beats before on Chuck.

 

-----------

A bigger issue is that Joe West seems to have a better, more honest relationship with his foster son (Barry) than with his own daughter, Iris.

Edited January 23, 2015 by Trini

[LydiaMoon1]

I’m still depressed about Sleepy Hollow; I had to stop watching after about 4 episodes this season. And now the producers and writers of The Flash are hinting that Barry, the lead, may have a thing for Caitlin, his co-worker, and Iris may not be the end game. WHY!? Why tease the fans?

I'll take Bait or Switch for $1,000, Alex. 

 

A:

   

[..]emphasize the chemistry between the AA female and the W male if you aren’t going to follow through with a relationship...

 

Q: What is shipper-baiting, Alex.

 

A:

[...]  tease [..] that the AA female will be a significant character if you aren’t interested in writing a storyline for the AA woman..

 

Q: What is the current switch used by some show creators/runners because they're savvy and cynical enough to realize that AA women watch shows that feature other AA women, so they tease an AA lead/co-lead/featured player to garner ratings and better their chances of success and renewal so that they can then write the show they really wanted (hint:  it’s the one without WOC/POC).

 

It’s so disheartening to get excited about a show and have them pull the rug out from under you.

Edited January 23, 2015 by LydiaMoon1

[ribboninthesky1]

Q: What is the current switch used by some show creators/runners because they're savvy and cynical enough to realize that AA woman watch shows that feature other AA women, so they tease an AA lead/co-lead/featured player to garner ratings and better their chances of success and renewal so that they can then write the show they really wanted (hint: it’s the one without WOC/POC).

 

My theory has been that the ratings success of Scandal made it trendy to cast black women as "leads," while still treating them like most non-white characters are written: peripherally.  I thought that's exactly what Sleepy Hollow did in season one with Abbie Mills, which is why I didn't quite understand how or why she was such an allegedly groundbreaking character.  Scandal fell into the same trap in season 3, though Shonda Rhimes has allegedly righted the ship in season 4.   

 

As an aside, I've noted the uptick in "period" productions in the past few years that allegedly bypass the criticism for diversity in lead roles.  I see you, TV producers.

 

A bigger issue is that Joe West seems to have a better, more honest relationship with his foster son (Barry) than with his own daughter, Iris.

 

Trini, girl, you know how I feel about that.  Been railing on it in the Flash thread since the show started.  I don't think it's intentional by the writers, but it's not a good look for the black father to appear to favor his white foster son over his black biological daughter.    

Edited January 24, 2015 by ribboninthesky1

[gator12]

The Flash is on the CW, I come to expect CW shows to pander to what the loudest most annoying fans want when it come to pairing and not the pairing that the writers original wanted. See Arrow with Oliver and Felicity 

[LydiaMoon1]

As an aside, I've note the uptick in "period" productions in the past few years that allegedly bypass the criticism for diversity in lead roles.  I see you, TV producers.

My sister and I were just discussing this the other day. We see them too.

[manbearpig]

My theory has been that the ratings success of Scandal made it trendy to cast black women as "leads," while still treating them like most non-white characters are written: peripherally.  I thought that's exactly what Sleepy Hollow did in season one with Abbie Mills, which is why I didn't quite understand how or why she was such an allegedly groundbreaking character.  Scandal fell into the same trap in season 3, though Shonda Rhimes has allegedly righted the ship in season 4.      

 

Scandal has definitely been using Olivia better this season, but I'm not sure if putting her on the backburner towards the end of season three was intentional. It could have been done to accommodate Kerry Washington's pregnancy. The episode order even got cut to eighteen, but when she on the show less her parents were around and were fairly important. I don't disagree with your point, though. I haven't actually seen Sleepy Hollow but a lot of people seem to have soured on it lately, and from what I've read, Abby has been getting less screen time this season.

[Pacodakat]

Are you watching "Empire"?

 

I had an interesting conversation with someone today about Empire, they were unhappy with the new trend in Black soapy shows because we've yet to see a successful "black" drama on mainstream TV. He called it the new Blaxploitation and he lumped in the Atlanta housewives, Love & Hip Hop, Scandal and other shows he says are exploiting blacks or portraying them negatively. I don't necessarily agree with him because at least Shonda is offering some variety in her characters. But I do understand the desire to want to see more well-rounded black characters on television and less over the top drama. Tim Reed had a show on long time ago called "Frank’s Place" that was sweet and some say too boring for AA audiences but I loved it. I know mentioning Tim Reed (Venus fly trap on WKRP In Cincinnati ) shows my age, but that's what I like, more of the snap shots of everyday life... that's what I think is missing from portrayals of AA life on television.

Does anyone have an opinion on whether the soapy over the top shows featuring African Americans should be considered the new Blaxploitation era.

Edited January 24, 2015 by Pacodakat

[ribboninthesky1]

Does anyone have an opinion on whether the soapy over the top shows featuring African Americans should be considered the new Blaxploitation era.

 

Good question.  I experience cognitive dissonance when it comes to shows like Empire.  On the one hand, I feel "hood" or "street" blacks are human as well, and deserve to be treated as three-dimensionally as WASPs or middle-class blacks or any other group.  I'm kinda meh on the show already, but I'm glad that it's doing well in the ratings.  On the other hand, I remember what it was like in the 80s and 90s, when there seemed to be a wider variety of black people shown on TV.  Granted, it was mostly comedy, which is its own issue, but I'm grateful to have come of age during this period.  And so, I certainly wish there was more of that in the present. 

 

I've also found that rounded representations of blacks just aren't found on mainstream TV - it's mostly online content now.  I don't know that we'll ever have the "lightning in the bottle" period that was the mid-to-late 70s to 90s again, because networks and cable aren't generally interested in that.  The upside is that, online, blacks can maintain creative control of their work; the downside is far less distribution and lackluster production values.  And sadly enough, blacks get considerably more representation on TV than other non-whites, though the tide seems to be (slowly) turning for Americans of Asian descent.    

 

It's ironic that Empire's ratings are so great, as Fox was the network that came to prominence with shows like New York Undercover, Martin, and Living Single, and then ultimately dumped that kind of programming to cater to primarily white viewers. Now it's seen it's best numbers in years, if not decades. It'll be interesting to see what they do with that, especially if Empire doesn't maintain its ratings.

 

Scandal has definitely been using Olivia better this season, but I'm not sure if putting her on the backburner towards the end of season three was intentional. It could have been done to accommodate Kerry Washington's pregnancy. The episode order even got cut to eighteen, but when she on the show less her parents were around and were fairly important. I don't disagree with your point, though. I haven't actually seen Sleepy Hollow but a lot of people seem to have soured on it lately, and from what I've read, Abby has been getting less screen time this season.

 

You're right about the episode order and Kerry's pregnancy.  Still, I felt that the show began to sideline and marginalize Olivia Pope early into season 3.  And in an unpopular opinion, I think the characterization of Rowan was a big part of that.    

[ethalfrida]

Are you watching "Empire"?

 

Tim Reed had a show on long time ago called "Frank’s Place" that was sweet and some say too boring for AA audiences but I loved it. I know mentioning Tim Reed (Venus fly trap on WKRP In Cincinnati ) shows my age, but that's what I like, more of the snap shots of everyday life... that's what I think is missing from portrayals of AA life on television.

Does anyone have an opinion on whether the soapy over the top shows featuring African Americans should be considered the new Blaxploitation era.

Frank's Place was extraordinary!!! I still think about those shows. I think part of the reason it faded out was because the powers that were did not want to support a show that was calm, well written and showed even shady characters as gentle, humorous folk as Tim Reed portrayed them. Some only want to see others always in humiliating, ignorant situations. We's got to be runaway slave-like or strumpets or thugs etc. Personally, I do not watch many all Black shows or films. It pains me. The reason I watch TV is for entertainment and it is not entertaining to see any group of people downcast and shown poorly. 

 

And the new trend I notice is violence towards women. While I initially found it amusing that the chick in Homeland could take a punch, pregnant and all, I now see in some many other shows where the roles are not even similar, women are slammed, shot, kicked, punched and beaten beyond (insert word here). And we should not think those scenes do not affect the viewing public ... one morning I was leaving home when I saw a group of boys and girls on my lawn. One boy had knocked a little girl down and was kicking her in her ribs just as in a movie or tv show. The little girl was kind of curled up and taking it. I made him stop and told the child never, ever take that kind of treatment from anyone. They looked to be around 8 or 9 years of age. That was just awful.

 

But, to be fair, the powers that be often turn the same eye towards non-Black shows. Remember the era when all white parents were either invisible or extremely stupid? Or the shows where there was at least one super stupid white guy? OMG, I still cringe when I think of the Monroe character on Ted whatshisname's show. I think no one escapes the producers' bottom line.

 

[Cobalt Stargazer]

But, to be fair, the powers that be often turn the same eye towards non-Black shows. Remember the era when all white parents were either invisible or extremely stupid? Or the shows where there was at least one super stupid white guy? OMG, I still cringe when I think of the Monroe character on Ted whatshisname's show. I think no one escapes the producers' bottom line.

 

Rose Nylund and Joey Tribbiani also immediately leap to mind.

[topanga]

 

But I do understand the desire to want to see more well-rounded black characters on television and less over the top drama.

I enjoy the show "Being Mary Jane" on BET, where Gabrielle Union portrays a successful news broadcaster in Atlanta, and the shows follows her struggles with love, career, her family, and race. I like it because Mary Jane is well-rounded. She isn't stereotypical, and she also doesn't follow the "Black Superwoman" trope. She's allowed to be flawed. In fact, some of her life choices infuriate me, but I like that she has the freedom to make choices and hasn't been written into a box. The show might not be everyone's cup of tea--there isn't much action except for Gabrielle Union throwing a guys clothes into her front yard. But I think it's well-written and entertaining.

[Ohwell]

Tim Reed had a show on long time ago called "Frank’s Place" that was sweet and some say too boring for AA audiences but I loved it. I know mentioning Tim Reed (Venus fly trap on WKRP In Cincinnati ) shows my age, but that's what I like, more of the snap shots of everyday life... that's what I think is missing from portrayals of AA life on television.

I loved that show and I still harbor ill feelings towards CBS for cancelling it.

[Sparger Springs]

I am sure current tv shows are using black women to garner ratings and buzz. The game changer has been twitter. Black people get on twitter and live tweet the shows they love. The tweeting, twittering, what evs is often more entertaining than the actual show.  Fox has gone black to using black characters after dumping them 20 years ago for the almighty white man demographic.  CW will come crawling back soon. They dumped the Game and Girlfriends they had higher ratings they anything else they had on in the past and the present. I bet CBS is kicking themselves for not using Taraji more effectively on POI. There ratings fell a lot after she left. People keep trying to blame the ratings on the time slot change. POI had high ratings in black households not so much anymore. Of course per the POI message boards only smart genius with depth watch the show. Sleepy Hollow is breaking my heart. I never expected Crane and Abbie to get together.  I have shipped couples before and nothing happened the way I wanted.  I continued to watch because I was entertained. Black people are being used for buzz. I am convinced that  Girls on HBO would've been cancelled by now if black women didn't complain about it so much and write 2 billion think pieces on no blacks in NYC show. That show has never actually been remotely close to be a hit even by the lower HBO standards. 

[LeeLeePanda]

I am sure current tv shows are using black women to garner ratings and buzz. The game changer has been twitter. Black people get on twitter and live tweet the shows they love. The tweeting, twittering, what evs is often more entertaining than the actual show.  Fox has gone black to using black characters after dumping them 20 years ago for the almighty white man demographic.  CW will come crawling back soon. They dumped the Game and Girlfriends they had higher ratings they anything else they had on in the past and the present. I bet CBS is kicking themselves for not using Taraji more effectively on POI. There ratings fell a lot after she left. People keep trying to blame the ratings on the time slot change. POI had high ratings in black households not so much anymore. Of course per the POI message boards only smart genius with depth watch the show. Sleepy Hollow is breaking my heart. I never expected Crane and Abbie to get together.  I have shipped couples before and nothing happened the way I wanted.  I continued to watch because I was entertained. Black people are being used for buzz. I am convinced that  Girls on HBO would've been cancelled by now if black women didn't complain about it so much and write 2 billion think pieces on no blacks in NYC show. That show has never actually been remotely close to be a hit even by the lower HBO standards.

I was inspired by this post to write about where I think Sleepy Hollow went wrong in the Sleepy Hollow boards. I think Hollywood continually underestimated the power of their POC viewers. Shows like Scandal and How to Get Away With Murder are dominating because while they have Black leads, they aren't "Black" shows. One of the things that I love about Scandal is that they don't shy away from racial politics, but it's not a beat you over the head thing. Remember the scene in the beginning of season 3 where Rowan reminds Olivia of his mantra for her while she was growing up? "You have to be twice as good as them to get half of what they have". Black Twitter went crazy over that line, because so many grew up hearing the same thing. I don't watch HTGAWM, but even I know about the infamous wig removal scene.

I don't think either show would have done as well as they have without the power of Black Twitter behind them. Live tweeting Scandal is almost more entertaining to read as it is to watch the show. #Sleepyholla for Sleepy Hollow is smart and holds no bars funny. I know people are probably live tweeting Empire, and it's probably just as fun as watching the show.

[funkopop]

I am sure current tv shows are using black women to garner ratings and buzz. The game changer has been twitter. Black people get on twitter and live tweet the shows they love. The tweeting, twittering, what evs is often more entertaining than the actual show.  Fox has gone black to using black characters after dumping them 20 years ago for the almighty white man demographic.  CW will come crawling back soon. They dumped the Game and Girlfriends they had higher ratings they anything else they had on in the past and the present. I bet CBS is kicking themselves for not using Taraji more effectively on POI. There ratings fell a lot after she left. People keep trying to blame the ratings on the time slot change. POI had high ratings in black households not so much anymore. Of course per the POI message boards only smart genius with depth watch the show. Sleepy Hollow is breaking my heart. I never expected Crane and Abbie to get together.  I have shipped couples before and nothing happened the way I wanted.  I continued to watch because I was entertained. Black people are being used for buzz. I am convinced that  Girls on HBO would've been cancelled by now if black women didn't complain about it so much and write 2 billion think pieces on no blacks in NYC show. That show has never actually been remotely close to be a hit even by the lower HBO standards. 

 

I think Lifetime has openly embraced Twitter because as bad as the biopics they have made are they will invite people to tweet while they watch and time and time again their movies are record breaking despite all the hatewatch and controversy it garners.

[DearEvette]

Scandal has definitely been using Olivia better this season, but I'm not sure if putting her on the backburner towards the end of season three was intentional. It could have been done to accommodate Kerry Washington's pregnancy. The episode order even got cut to eighteen, but when she on the show less her parents were around and were fairly important. I don't disagree with your point, though.

 

Yes, i think Kerry's pregnancy contributed to her smaller role.  But that is only a part of it, even with her back-burnered, the actual writing for Olivia in the terrible S3 was equally terrible.  This to me is a Shonda Rhimes thing.  She has a lead character  but she seems to get bored with continuing to write for that character in the way that made viewers initially like that character.  She did it with Meredith, Addison and Olivia.  Meanwhile she will single out a supporting character that she will write for and allow their character's arc to eclipse the lead in some ways.  She did this is Izzy, Charlotte, Mellie and Rowan.

 

 

Are you watching "Empire"?

 

I had an interesting conversation with someone today about Empire, they were unhappy with the new trend in Black soapy shows because we've yet to see a successful "black" drama on mainstream TV. He called it the new Blaxploitation and he lumped in the Atlanta housewives, Love & Hip Hop, Scandal and other shows he says are exploiting blacks or portraying them negatively. I don't necessarily agree with him because at least Shonda is offering some variety in her characters. But I do understand the desire to want to see more well-rounded black characters on television and less over the top drama. Tim Reed had a show on long time ago called "Frank’s Place" that was sweet and some say too boring for AA audiences but I loved it. I know mentioning Tim Reed (Venus fly trap on WKRP In Cincinnati ) shows my age, but that's what I like, more of the snap shots of everyday life... that's what I think is missing from portrayals of AA life on television.

 

I don't agree completely.  The biggest signifier in  70s Blaxploitation is that the setting was usually always in Urban Ghetto  areas and was sereved to showcase the total and complete 'otherness' of black people from whites via living conditions, speech patterns, even sexuality.  For those who believe it was exploitative in truth, then it's purpose was designed package black people for non-black gaze in a way that negatively reinforces black stereotypes.  While I do agree that reality tv seems to work within this framework somewhat.  It is important to note that the predominantly black reality shows aren't actually showing or doing anything differently than their white counter-parts.  In fact the black women on the shows look, speak, act and live almost exactly the same as their white counterparts in the same shows.  So in reality we aren't seeing anything really 'othered' in these shows except the black skin on the participants. 

 

I think a show like Empire that is set in a Hip Hop musical scene would easily draw a knee-jerk reaction to that, but I don't agree that it is inherently exploitative.  If anything the show is a retread of almost every glossy night-time soap that has ever graced tv and with predominantly white casts.  In fact I don't see any real difference in story content between Nashville -- set in the country music scene -- and in Empire.  Distilled to their plot elements, Nashville (with mothers in prisons, abusive parents, drug abuse, alcoholism. closeted gay performers etc.) is as soapy as Empire.  But Empire becomes the subject of a ton of think pieces, while Nashville is allowed to simply be.  What disturbs me isn't so much that people are discussing race & representation  wrt to Empire, but that its' artistic validity as a 'good' show is immediately suspect because it is predominantly cast with black characters and is set in Hip Hop.

 

In some ways  this is analogous to a lot of the reaction when Kerry Washington got nominated for her Emmy.   Her validity as a viable nominee was almost immediately questioned.  Her acting was scrutinized to a degree a lot of the other nominees weren't. She 'took' Tatiana Maslany's place.  It was a given that all of her white co-nominees were legit, their validity wasn't questioned.

 

My theory has been that the ratings success of Scandal made it trendy to cast black women as "leads," while still treating them like most non-white characters are written: peripherally.  I thought that's exactly what Sleepy Hollow did in season one with Abbie Mills, which is why I didn't quite understand how or why she was such an allegedly groundbreaking character.  Scandal fell into the same trap in season 3, though Shonda Rhimes has allegedly righted the ship in season 4. 

 

 

 

 

Anything that could be considered contributing to a ratings success becomes trendy in TV.  I will say though that Season 1 of Sleepy Hollow, Abbie was not written peripherally.  As a matter of fact her family and her background was important and integral to the mythology of the show.  Nicole Beharie was cast before Mison and all the actors who read for Ichabod had to chem test with her.   And she was important because Sleepy Hollow is a genre show.  It is unheard of a black woman to be the lead of a genre show on a major network.  Genre shows that deal primarily with science fiction/fantasy elements that appeal to geek/nerd culture have a fandom that are not kind to women to begin with and even more not kind to WOC.   Gina Torres who playe Zoe in Firefly & Danai Gurira who plays Michonne from Walking Dead are notable exceptions, but neither of these women are leads by any stretch of the imagination.  Before Nicole Beharie, Salli Richardson who played Allison in Eureka was probably the closest thing to a black female lead in a SF show, but she definitely was not lead billed.  And Allison was not popular with a large contingent of fans for awhile.

 

But yeah, season 2 of Sleepy Hollow pushed Abbie in the background.  But she has a HUGE fanbase even across genders/races and amongst tv critics and, it is rumored Fox loves her.  That is rather groundbreaking in and of itself.  A twitter campaign made the writers sit up and take notice so if the get a S3, that probably won't happen again.

Edited January 26, 2015 by DearEvette

[Bruinsfan]

A bigger issue is that Joe West seems to have a better, more honest relationship with his foster son (Barry) than with his own daughter, Iris.

I'm wondering if that is intentional, and something they're looking to develop as part of Joe's storyline to give the actor something to sink his teeth into? I'll confess the scene where Joe invited Barry to move back in gave me the warm fuzzies, but I don't think you hire an actor of Jesse L. Martin's caliber to play a bland supportive role with no dramatic conflict.

[allyw]

Yes, i think Kerry's pregnancy contributed to her smaller role.  But that is only a part of it, even with her back-burnered, the actual writing for Olivia in the terrible S3 was equally terrible.  This to me is a Shonda Rhimes thing.  She has a lead character  but she seems to get bored with continuing to write for that character in the way that made viewers initially like that character.  She did it with Meredith, Addison and Olivia.  Meanwhile she will single out a supporting character that she will write for and allow their character's arc to eclipse the lead in some ways.  She did this is Izzy, Charlotte, Mellie and Rowan.

 

 

I gave up on Private Practice before it ended and also haven't watched GA since around season 4 or 5 (can't remember which) and you're correct that elevating secondary characters over leads is a Shonda Rhimes thing and the reason it seemed so egregious with Scandal is because Olivia is black and Mellie is white. Seeing a black character being pushed into the background and a white one emerging out front pushed a lot of buttons for black viewers because we are so used to seeing black characters marginalize and for whatever reason, shonda didn't seem to be aware of  what was happening.

 

 

I think a show like Empire that is set in a Hip Hop musical scene would easily draw a knee-jerk reaction to that, but I don't agree that it is inherently exploitative.  If anything the show is a retread of almost every glossy night-time soap that has ever graced tv and with predominantly white casts.  In fact I don't see any real difference in story content between Nashville -- set in the country music scene -- and in Empire.  Distilled to their plot elements, Nashville (with mothers in prisons, abusive parents, drug abuse, alcoholism. closeted gay performers etc.) is as soapy as Empire.  But Empire becomes the subject of a ton of think pieces, while Nashville is allowed to simply be.  What disturbs me isn't so much that people are discussing race & representation  wrt to Empire, but that its' artistic validity as a 'good' show is immediately suspect because it is predominantly cast with black characters and is set in Hip Hop.

 

This has always what bothered me about all these articles written about Scandal, blackish and now Empire. These shows can't just exist to be enjoyed. They have to be criticized within an inch with all these "intellects" saying how bad these shows are. These shows need to be twice as good as their white counterparts for them to be even considered "just okay". 

 

In some ways  this is analogous to a lot of the reaction when Kerry Washington got nominated for her Emmy.   Her validity as a viable nominee was almost immediately questioned.  Her acting was scrutinized to a degree a lot of the other nominees weren't. She 'took' Tatiana Maslany's place.  It was a given that all of her white co-nominees were legit, their validity wasn't questioned.

 

Oh man, I remember some people were even saying that they expanded the category just to include her while conveniently ignoring that the actor's category was also expanded. And this year so many of them were happy that Viola was nominated instead of Kerry without realizing that they were basically accepting the "there can only be one" rule. 

 

 

 

 

[Trini]

I'm wondering if that is intentional, and something they're looking to develop as part of Joe's storyline to give the actor something to sink his teeth into? I'll confess the scene where Joe invited Barry to move back in gave me the warm fuzzies, but I don't think you hire an actor of Jesse L. Martin's caliber to play a bland supportive role with no dramatic conflict.

 

Probably only intentional in the sense that Barry is the lead, and so they probably care more about his scenes -- with whoever. But Jesse is great; so it sucks that they're dropping the ball with him and Iris.

[ribboninthesky1]

Anything that could be considered contributing to a ratings success becomes trendy in TV.  I will say though that Season 1 of Sleepy Hollow, Abbie was not written peripherally.  As a matter of fact her family and her background was important and integral to the mythology of the show.  Nicole Beharie was cast before Mison and all the actors who read for Ichabod had to chem test with her.   And she was important because Sleepy Hollow is a genre show.  It is unheard of a black woman to be the lead of a genre show on a major network.  Genre shows that deal primarily with science fiction/fantasy elements that appeal to geek/nerd culture have a fandom that are not kind to women to begin with and even more not kind to WOC.   Gina Torres who playe Zoe in Firefly & Danai Gurira who plays Michonne from Walking Dead are notable exceptions, but neither of these women are leads by any stretch of the imagination.  Before Nicole Beharie, Salli Richardson who played Allison in Eureka was probably the closest thing to a black female lead in a SF show, but she definitely was not lead billed.  And Allison was not popular with a large contingent of fans for awhile.

 

But yeah, season 2 of Sleepy Hollow pushed Abbie in the background.  But she has a HUGE fanbase even across genders/races and amongst tv critics and, it is rumored Fox loves her.  That is rather groundbreaking in and of itself.  A twitter campaign made the writers sit up and take notice so if the get a S3, that probably won't happen again.

 

I'm not debating her popularity when I reference groundbreaking.  I disagree with how integral she was to the show in season one.  The first few episodes gave weight to her in relation to the arc of the season (I'm hesitant to call it mythology), but by mid-season, the show was already tying integral plot points and villains primarily to Ichabod (and Katrina).  Season One was, what, 10 episodes (ETA: correction - 13). That's awfully quick to shift gears away from a lead.  I watched only one episode in season 2, but I'll always believe the writing was on the wall for Abbie as a character half-way into season one.  I just never felt like she was a co-lead beyond the first few episodes.  And I'm hard-pressed to give a show credit for a few episodes at the start of their initial season, especially when *I* think the reason they cast a black woman in the first place was because of the success of Scandal.  You've already referenced other black female characters in genre shows, and being familiar with Eureka and Firefly, I just never saw Abbie as the positive anomaly that many did.  But that's probably more appropriate for the UPO thread.      

 

As for soaps and certain black reality TV shows, I think the aspect of respectability and normalcy will always be a bone of contention, among black viewers at least.  And for good reason, even if I disagree that blacks need to be either to have their stories told.  Though, I do think the hip-hop of Empire in particular is part of the issue as well.  I have a feeling if the show was more "Generations"-esque, it might not receive the same level of scrutiny.

 

As an aside, I remember Frank's Place, too! But I also think it was indicative of the type of black shows available on TV during that prime period.  

Edited January 27, 2015 by ribboninthesky1

[opus]

Since he's also on TV with SHERLOCK, I'll stick this here:

http://news-briefs.ew.com/2015/01/27/benedict-cumberbatch-apology-colored/

Edited January 28, 2015 by GaryE

[Pacodakat]

“I’m devastated to have caused offence by using this outmoded terminology. I offer my sincere apologies. I make no excuse for my being an idiot and know the damage is done. I can only hope this incident will highlight the need for correct usage of terminology that is accurate and inoffensive,” Cumberbatch said in a statement, which the Daily Mail printed in full. “The most shaming aspect of this for me is that I was talking about racial inequality in the performing arts in the UK and the need for rapid improvements in our industry when I used the term.”

 

 

I love how British he is, even in his apology. I remember having a conversation with this guy at work in 1990, and he casually called some guy "a colored man" and I was stunned. It felt like I had zoomed back to the 60's and was confronted with some racist southerner. Anyway....I was less angry and more perplexed at the term because it had been years since I heard anyone use it, I mean like 1970's long time. I kept thinking that my co-worker who I talk to and laugh with everyday sees me as a colored person. It was puzzling...what does that mean to someone in 1990?.... and does it mean anything to me in 2015? It’s a strange term and I think it just sounds kind of antiquated, not necessarily offensive. Some of us do use the term "people of color," a phrase that encompasses all racial groups or other than Caucasian, but what does it mean that he said "colored actors?" Maybe he's been talking to his parents or grandparents a lot lately and that's the term they use? I don't know.... I'm not mad at him. I'm having a hard time even caring.

 

I'm always distracted by how weird his face looks......

Edited January 28, 2015 by Pacodakat

[Dejana]

And this year so many of them were happy that Viola was nominated instead of Kerry without realizing that they were basically accepting the "there can only be one" rule.

 

For me it has nothing to do with the attitude that "there can only be one". I just thought Kerry was kind of terrible in S3 of Scandal but figured that once she'd made the lead categories, she would keep getting nominated until the show fell out of favor with voters, as it happens with many of the TV acting awards. I thought maybe she was having a rough pregnancy and she didn't have energy for dynamic performances, but then I'd see her on red carpets in super-high heels and maternity crop tops, and it wasn't like her acting on Scandal exactly blew me away before then.

 

But anyone who dared say that Kerry was just okay some weeks and Bellamy Young was more interesting to watch...it wasn't long before the insinuations came that people couldn't really deal seeing a black woman in a drama as the object of desire and of course, the show pushed the privileged white woman into the limelight because people are more "comfortable" with the familiar. The ole bait and switch. When, really, for me my feelings about the leading ladies of Scandal weren't radically different from preferring Sandra Oh/Cristina to Ellen Pompeo/Meredith on Grey's Anatomy. So, now that Viola and Taraji have come along, knocking it out of the park with their shows being huge hits, too, it makes it harder to trot out the argument that anyone not impressed with Kerry's acting on Scandal these days is just a hater who doesn't want black women to succeed.

Edited January 28, 2015 by Dejana

[Bella]

I love how British he is, even in his apology. I remember having a conversation with this guy at work in 1990, and he casually called some guy "a colored man" and I was stunned. It felt like I had zoomed back to the 60's and was confronted with some racist southerner. Anyway....I was less angry and more perplexed at the term because it had been years since I heard anyone use it, I mean like 1970's long time. I kept thinking that my co-worker who I talk to and laugh with everyday sees me as a colored person. It was puzzling...what does that mean to someone in 1990?.... and does it mean anything to me in 2015? It’s a strange term and I think it just sounds kind of antiquated, not necessarily offensive. Some of us do use the term "people of color," a phrase that encompasses all racial groups or other than Caucasian, but what does it mean that he said "colored actors?" Maybe he's been talking to his parents or grandparents a lot lately and that's the term they use? I don't know.... I'm not mad at him. I'm having a hard time even caring.

 

I had the same reaction. Last person I heard use the term "colored" was my grandfather, and he died in 1976. It's so dated. It's not even ironic, it's just not a word people say anymore. Except for Benedict Cumberbatch, I guess.

 

(Someone's going to come along now and tell me what kind of bubble I live in, and that's fine. But I don't hear that word in my bubble.)

[ribboninthesky1]

I'm not mad at him. I'm having a hard time even caring.

 

I'm always distracted by how weird his face looks......

 

You described exactly how I feel about it.  

[Cobalt Stargazer]

But anyone who dared say that Kerry was just okay some weeks and Bellamy Young was more interesting to watch...it wasn't long before the insinuations came that people couldn't really deal seeing a black woman in a drama as the object of desire and of course, the show pushed the privileged white woman into the limelight because people are more "comfortable" with the familiar.

 

As someone who watched Bellamy Young when she was on Criminal Minds, I can say that being interesting to watch might have been based on your ability to tolerate someone giggling almost every time she had a line.

 

With that said, I don't particularly care for KW's acting either, although I think she's adequate. And I don't really watch Scandal unless someone else has it on here at the house, so I guess I haven't really been paying attention. I do, though, think there's something important in that you can't criticize some things without criticism being directed at you in kind.

[jhlipton]

Count me among those who loved Frank's Place!

I thought that's exactly what Sleepy Hollow did in season one with Abbie Mills, which is why I didn't quite understand how or why she was such an allegedly groundbreaking character.  .    

 

There's a lot of talk on the SH forum on when Abbie got side-lined and when and how she'll get un-side-lined (almost everyone who knows even a bit about SH knows it was Mark Goffman (who has the hots for Katia Winter) who side-lined Abbie (and Jennie and Frank), and that there's been a lot going on behind the scenes at Fox that will hopefully change all that by the start of Season 3.

 

Are you watching "Empire"?

 

I had an interesting conversation with someone today about Empire, they were unhappy with the new trend in Black soapy shows because we've yet to see a successful "black" drama on mainstream TV. He called it the new Blaxploitation and he lumped in the Atlanta housewives, Love & Hip Hop, Scandal and other shows he says are exploiting blacks or portraying them negatively. 

 

I'd say that Empire is treating all the characters (including the few white ones) as human, rather than negatively (which makes sense, given that it's based on King Lear and The Lion in Winter).  Cookie is over-the-top and an ex drug dealer and everyone, black, white or purple, loves her.  The other break-out character is Jamal, who may help break the nasty homophobia that permeates the current rap scene (I pine for the days of En Vogue and Disposable Masters of Hiphopcracy!)

[allyw]

For me it has nothing to do with the attitude that "there can only be one". I just thought Kerry was kind of terrible in S3 of Scandal but figured that once she'd made the lead categories, she would keep getting nominated until the show fell out of favor with voters, as it happens with many of the TV acting awards. I thought maybe she was having a rough pregnancy and she didn't have energy for dynamic performances, but then I'd see her on red carpets in super-high heels and maternity crop tops, and it wasn't like her acting on Scandal exactly blew me away before then.

 

But anyone who dared say that Kerry was just okay some weeks and Bellamy Young was more interesting to watch...it wasn't long before the insinuations came that people couldn't really deal seeing a black woman in a drama as the object of desire and of course, the show pushed the privileged white woman into the limelight because people are more "comfortable" with the familiar. The ole bait and switch. When, really, for me my feelings about the leading ladies of Scandal weren't radically different from preferring Sandra Oh/Cristina to Ellen Pompeo/Meredith on Grey's Anatomy. So, now that Viola and Taraji have come along, knocking it out of the park with their shows being huge hits, too, it makes it harder to trot out the argument that anyone not impressed with Kerry's acting on Scandal these days is just a hater who doesn't want black women to succeed.

 

Season 3 of Scandal was terrible on a whole and while I think Kerry is a competent actress, I never thought she was brilliant so my issue is not her getting nominated or not. It's the fact that their were 5 spots for lead actress nominees with only 2 repeating from last year and instead of comparing her with all of the other nominees, the only thing people talked about was that Viola replaced her. Saying that when both of them are black while all the other nominees are white is co-signing that "there can only be one".

 

And fans can prefer whoever they want but that doesn't mean viewers can't have an issue with what's going on on screen which was Mellie being treated as a lead and being rewritten to be a victim. I had/ have no problem with Bellamy but I like Mellie less and less with each re-write and seeing her being pushed to the fore-front while Olivia lost her backbone and became nothing but an object for Fitz, Jake and Rowan to fight over was an issue for me.

 

And Kerry get's a lot of criticism that neither Viola or Taraji will get because Olivia is sleeping with a married white man.

Edited January 28, 2015 by allyw

[junemeatcleaver]

 

With that said, I don't particularly care for KW's acting either, although I think she's adequate. And I don't really watch Scandal unless someone else has it on here at the house, so I guess I haven't really been paying attention. I do, though, think there's something important in that you can't criticize some things without criticism being directed at you in kind.

 

I have personally seen people say that Kerry Washington is a not so good actress, it's the sentiment that she's taking the place of (usually) more "deserving" white actresses that's annoying.  IMO there have been plenty of mediocre, and sometimes bad, actors and actresses that have been nominated for Emmys over the years and they didn't get half the criticism KW got for being nominated.  I mean, shit, if Mariska Hargitay, who has never impressed me, can win an Emmy, Kerry Washington can get nominated for her bizarre teeth acting.

[callie lee 29]

Even though I started this topic I hardly ever post so here I go: Empire is super soapy, and I can understand why that might upset some people, but I don't think that it was really advertised as really a whole lot more than that. Maybe since I'm coming from the perspective as someone who has watched soaps, I could see it, but wow! "soapy" was telegraphed from the print ad campaign. It reminds me a lot of Dallas. What I hadn't seen coming is that while I like Cookie (and LOVE Taraji) she can get on my nerves. And it's only a couple of episodes in. But that's her role. The real surprise is that I'm way more into Lucius than I thought I would be (I do not like Terrence Howard). The whole cast is great. And yes it's soapy, buts it's a really captivating show, which a lot of soaps are. I see, from a white perspective take of that what you will, is that I see it suffering from a lot of problems that true soaps suffer from, people don't take it seriously, so it gets dismissed. Regardless of the talent, it's "too much" so it's disregarded. Which is unfortunate because beyond Taraji the kid who is playing Andre is killing it!

 

I have noticed some disregard towards Abbie on Sleepy Hollow but I'm curious: do you all think it's because of race or is it because of gender? I ask because it seems like a lot of nighttime tv dramas operate under the perspective that they can only have the main focus/write on/for one woman at a time. So do you think is it a gender thing or a race thing? Or both?

 

I have no opinion on Scandal. I have maybe seen 15 min. total, but for what it's worth I have only ever heard about Kerry Washington and the one scene I saw with Bellamy Young (?) I thought "hey it's that chick from Criminal Minds".

[Irlandesa]

Are you watching "Empire"?

 

I had an interesting conversation with someone today about Empire, they were unhappy with the new trend in Black soapy shows because we've yet to see a successful "black" drama on mainstream TV. He called it the new Blaxploitation and he lumped in the Atlanta housewives, Love & Hip Hop, Scandal and other shows he says are exploiting blacks or portraying them negatively.

I'm a white chick from the midwest so I'm the last one who should talk about how the black community (or even just one person of color) should feel about these shows but I do think there's a danger in just writing them off overall as some sort of exploitation because they don't like certain facets of the characters.  

 

I remember having a similar discussion about female characters on another TV show.  The poster didn't like that none of the characters were depicted living feminist ideals (basically having their ish together.) I saw it differently because that show had multiple women on it with unique points of view.  The women make the decisions that drive the plot and have many conversations unrelated to men.  They're not perfect people (as characters) but they are well-drawn characters.  I understand wanting characters who could serve as role models but the side effect of that is limiting what creators feel they can do with them. 

 

That's how I feel about Empire.  Yes, one of the characters is a murderer and the business was built off of drug money, but ultimately, that's not what the show is about.  It's about family, prejudice, acceptance, power...etc.  These aren't just great "black" characters.  And, in the case of Cookie, it's not just a great female character.  It's that they're all great characters, period. 

 

I understand your friend being upset that there hasn't been enough quiet "sane" black dramas.  But the fact of the matter is, pretty much all dramas right have very "soapy" elements and are over-the-top.  Even procedurals and sitcoms have included these elements. 

[Trini]

African-Americans propel prime time TV hits:

 

What many of this season's biggest hits have in common is a huge following in black households. This is most pronounced with Fox's new musical drama "Empire," which has quickly become the No. 1 new series of the season in all the key demographics.

According to Nielsen, 61% of the show's audience is African-American -- a figure that no other prime time show, new or old, even comes close to matching.

 

That article linked to this one on Vulture:  What [Empire's] Success Could Mean for the TV Business.

 

 

Assuming Empire stays strong in the ratings, its influence will almost certainly be felt outside the walls of Fox. < ... > It’s on that front — opening up more roles to actors of color — that Empire might have its most immediate impact. Pilot-casting season is just now underway, with the broadcast networks all scurrying to place hundreds of actors into their new projects. This season’s two biggest drama hits (Empire and Murder) and the only new comedy success (black-ish) all feature nonwhite actors in leading roles. It’s hard to see how this fact doesn’t further push execs and producers to diversify their casts. After all, nothing changes behavior in Hollywood faster than the prospect of a big hit.

 

Which brings me to -- Jimmy Olsen is Black now! But this isn't the first time they've tried to diversify Superman characters. Sam Jones played Pete Ross on Smallville; and Laurence Fishburne is Perry White in the newest movies.

[pivot]

ABC is picking up another Shonda Rhimes female-led series. I am curious to see if ABC lets her cast another AA or another minority as lead or if it will be a white actress in the lead.

I tend to like Shonda's shows the first 2 seasons and then the shows go off the rails. I struggled through Grey's and Scandal's seasons 3 and gave both up after that.

Another show I had to give up this season is Elementary. I don't know if Lucy Liu wanted to spend less time on Elementary or if this was driven by the network, but Lucy's role has been significantly reduced and they've brought in an annoying white actress to take over a lot of the screentime.

[allyw]

ABC is picking up another Shonda Rhimes female-led series. I am curious to see if ABC lets her cast another AA or another minority as lead or if it will be a white actress in the lead.

I tend to like Shonda's shows the first 2 seasons and then the shows go off the rails. I struggled through Grey's and Scandal's seasons 3 and gave both up after that.

Another show I had to give up this season is Elementary. I don't know if Lucy Liu wanted to spend less time on Elementary or if this was driven by the network, but Lucy's role has been significantly reduced and they've brought in an annoying white actress to take over a lot of the screentime.

With the current success of Grey's Scandal and HTGAWM, they'll probably let her cast whoever she wants. And I think that most shows goes off the rail in their third season if they manage to avoid it in their second. Also Scandal has improved this season though it's still not as good as the first 1.5.

Edited January 29, 2015 by allyw

[DearEvette]

ABC has been doing promos for Fresh Off the Boat and  I see  that they have the youngest son being into rap/hip hop but he doesn't seem to have any black friends (at least in the promos).

 

This made me wonder  now that I think of it, there are shows -- esp. comedies -- where the Networks are kinda tooting their own horn about diversity but I am noticing a very insular sort of diversity.  These shows that feature primarily black, Hispanic and now Asian casts will interact with, be friends with and have regular or recurring cast members that are white. But it is rare that they'll be friends with or have regular cast that are members of other ethnic minorities. 

 

It seems that diversity within a show always means one minority group + white people.  Makes me appreciate Neighbors a bit more where we had a black actress (Toks Olagundoye) as the mother of an Asian actor (Tim Jo).

 

Brooklyn 99 seems to buck this a bit, and possibly Mindy Kaling show.  Interestingly those are workplace shows and one would expect them to cast a wider diversity net.  But the family based shows don't seem to.

Edited January 30, 2015 by DearEvette

[memememe76]

Ugly Betty featured a prominent AA character. On Empire, isn't Jamal's boyfriend...well, actually, I don't know. Cookie referred to him as "the Little Mexican", but not sure if Michael is from Mexico. The actor is from South America, I believe.  Jane The Virgin features a female AA cop and the vengeful wife had an affair with one of the main character's best friend, who was AA. 

 

I haven't seen many promos for FOTB, but that's because I FF through commercials. I intend to watch. TBH, I won't care if everyone on the show is Asian, even the extras. 

[Mars477]

Now that The Expanse has been announced, I'm hoping that the casting director will hold to the degree of racial diversity present in the book series.  Holden and Miller are white (and while Thomas Jane isn't schlubby enough to be Miller Steven Strait looks like just the right amount of punchable obnoxious douchebag to be Holden).  Some of the POC have the "wrong" backgrounds, though.  Cas Anvar and Shoreh Aghdashloo are Iranians playing dark skinned Indian characters, but the latter is awesome so I'll take it (hopefully they keep Avarsala's attitude and... vocabulary).  And Fred Johnson is black, as is Chad Coleman.

 

With the core cast accounted for, the incidental characters and extras should still be overwhelmingly non-white.  With the exception of a handful of characters, nearly everybody whose race is mentioned in the book is nonwhite.  The Belters in particular are a mismatch of colonists originating from non-European countries.

 

I'm also curious as to how they'll cast Roberta Draper, who along with Avarsala has to be one of the best characters in the series.  Bobbie is Martian massive.  The perfect Bobbie would be if you took the Rock and turned him into a hot chick.

[topanga]

 

Another show I had to give up this season is Elementary. I don't know if Lucy Liu wanted to spend less time on Elementary or if this was driven by the network, but Lucy's role has been significantly reduced and they've brought in an annoying white actress to take over a lot of the screentime.

Are you talking about Elementary or Sleepy Hollow? *holds tongue in cheek*

[ApathyMonger]

With the core cast accounted for, the incidental characters and extras should still be overwhelmingly non-white.  With the exception of a handful of characters, nearly everybody whose race is mentioned in the book is nonwhite.  The Belters in particular are a mismatch of colonists originating from non-European countries.

 

Well, I don't think they really mention the characters' races often, but a lot of incidental characters in the books do tend to have Asian surnames.

[Mars477]

Ophelia Lovibond was much, much, much better in her role as the white actress playing a character from the source material who temporarily usurps the minority female lead character's screen time than Katia Winter is.

[memememe76]

Oprah Winfrey & ‘Selma’s’ Ava DuVernay Team for OWN Original Drama

 

 

Oprah Winfrey and “Selma” filmmaker Ava DuVernay are creating an original series for OWN: Oprah Winfrey Network, with Winfrey set to appear in a recurring role.

DuVernay will write, direct and exec produce the drama, adapted from the novel “Queen Sugar” by Natalie Baszile, which will follow a spirited woman, along with her teenage daughter, who leaves behind her upscale L.A. lifestyle for her Southern roots by way of an 800-acre Louisiana sugar cane farm she inherited from her recently departed father.

 

 

I have never read or heard of the book, but there aren't too many mother/daughter shows starring African American actresses. Looking forward to it. 

[galax-arena]

The current controversy over Agent Carter, with fans pitting sexism against racism, is giving me a headache. And I don't even watch the show!

 

The worst had to be Tamora Pierce - yes, that Tamora Pierce - who defended the show's lack of racial diversity by saying that it was the 1940s and black people only existed as servants back then anyway, and she was sick of seeing black people as servants, so their absence was okay with her.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

Serious question - why is she that Tamora Pierce? It's not like she's Stephenie Meyers or anything.

[Trini]

 

... it was the 1940s and black people only existed as servants back then anyway, ...

 

Statements like that is why we still need Black History Month.

Black History Month on PBS.

[galax-arena]

Serious question - why is she that Tamora Pierce? It's not like she's Stephenie Meyers or anything.

Because when I've talked about this elsewhere, the reaction is sometimes, "Wait, are we talking about some random person with the same name as Tamora Pierce, or the author herself?" I think a lot of people are surprised for whatever reason that a big-time fantasy author would wade into a discussion re: a show that she has nothing to do with. I don't really get that, not like famous people can't have opinions about stuff they're not directly involved in.

Edited February 3, 2015 by galax-arena

[Raja]

The current controversy over Agent Carter, with fans pitting sexism against racism, is giving me a headache. And I don't even watch the show!

 

The worst had to be Tamora Pierce - yes, that Tamora Pierce - who defended the show's lack of racial diversity by saying that it was the 1940s and black people only existed as servants back then anyway, and she was sick of seeing black people as servants, so their absence was okay with her.

 

 

Statements like that is why we still need Black History Month.

Black History Month on PBS.

But then the problem becomes that in the Marvel Cinematic Universe beginning with The First Avenger and continuing on Agent Carter first by ignoring the Nazis in favor of Hydra and their prejudice and by having an integrated America from all on screen evidence the racial concerns of that day or of our day does not exist. By the second episode of Agent Carter a Black man was about to openly have sex with a white women in 1945/6 and not a word was said nor an eye batted. All the Army and SSR bases a young Steve Rogers/Captain America was at were fully integrated and the only mention of race so far has been one captured American soldier being shocked to have a Japanese American soldier being a fellow prisoner so I guess Pearl Harbor and the internment of West Coast Japanese Americans did exist while Blacks served with whites, had sex with white women openly and sat next to each other and not in a roped off section in theatres and war bond tour audiences.

Edited February 4, 2015 by Raja