S05.E08: Hardhome

[Winnief]

 

Maybe they'll transition to a constitutional monarchy?

Not a bad theory.  Enlightenment principles may also be imported via Braavos which is clearly far more modern and cosmopolitan than anywhere else in the known world of the series. 

[ferretrick]

Traditionally episode 9 is where the shit hits the fan (Season One-Ned's Death; Season Two-Blackwater Bay; Season Three-something about a wedding?; Season 4-The Battle at the Wall). So if THAT was episode 8, what the FUCK are we in for next week??

Sansa, you've been coming along so well. So PLEASE promise me you won't be dumb enough to tell Littlefinger that there are two potentially two Stark boys still alive.

[Winnief]

Traditionally episode 9 is where the shit hits the fan (Season One-Ned's Death; Season Two-Blackwater Bay; Season Three-something about a wedding?; Season 4-The Battle at the Wall). So if THAT was episode 8, what the FUCK are we in for next week??

 

I know!  (Rubbing hands in glee.) 

 

Sansa, you've been coming along so well. So PLEASE promise me you won't be dumb enough to tell Littlefinger that there are two potentially two Stark boys still alive.

 

I doubt she'll even have the chance.  She doesn't have any access to ravens at the moment anyway. 

[Muffyn]

P.S. Am I the only one who finds Jon Snow's prettiness distracting, and not entirely in a good way? I feel like hair and makeup should rough his look up a tiny bit more. His hair is just SO luscious and glossy I find myself wondering where he managed to find L'Oreal products on the Wall?

I also realize this is a dumb thing to complain about, lol.

I actually enjoy all of the comments about how pretty he is, especially since he always has a sour look on his face when someone calls him pretty.  I am convinced that there is a full service hair salon at the wall and Jon travels with his own stylists.  I envision him in the early morn, rubbing hydrating oils into his ends.  

[peggy06]

The appearance of the White Walkers and their army of undead was excellently done, really upped the stakes on the show. The actual fights I don't especially get into, but that moment when the leader of the WWs raised his arms and reanimated the Wildlings newly-killed in battle was supremely chilling. Talk about things getting real. They obviously had to end the show with this sequence, because after that, the usual politicking and infighting of Westeros would look even more picayune than usual..

 

Although I did enjoy Tyrion and Danaerys - good to see Tyrion back to his old self.

 

Jorah - what can I say? His storyline is starting to bring me down.

 

I'm speculating here as I am not a book reader, but it seems clearer with every episode that Jon Snow is being positioned as the hero of the story. Look at his arc, from bastard half-brother, to the Night's Watch, among the criminals and no-hopers of Westeros, to Lord Commander and born leader of men. It's almost a trope.

Edited June 2, 2015 by peggy06

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Ever since that S5 trailer was released with Dany saying she wanted to break the wheel, I've been wondering exactly what her plan is. It's all well and fine to say you want to change things and make the world a better place, but it's another thing entirely to have a reasonable plan to make that happen. I was really hoping that Tyrion would press her for details about how she plans to achieve this wheel breaking of hers (especially since her default is "order dragons to burn my enemies," which isn't a practical option right now except for the enemies she can drag into the dungeon).

Edited June 2, 2015 by ElectricBoogaloo

[KevinPowers]

I though this was pretty funny and well done! 

[J----av]

Traditionally episode 9 is where the shit hits the fan (Season One-Ned's Death; Season Two-Blackwater Bay; Season Three-something about a wedding?; Season 4-The Battle at the Wall). So if THAT was episode 8, what the FUCK are we in for next week??

Sansa, you've been coming along so well. So PLEASE promise me you won't be dumb enough to tell Littlefinger that there are two potentially two Stark boys still alive.

 

 

 I would argue the episode 8 was the big WTF episode last season

[Andromeda]

Ever since that S5 trailer was released with Dany saying she wanted to break the wheel, I've been wondering exactly what her plan is. It's all well and fine to say you want to change things and make the world a better place, but it's another thing entirely to have a reasonable plan to make that happen. I was really hoping that Tyrion would press her for details about how she plans to achieve this wheel breaking of hers (especially since her default is "order dragons to burn my enemies," which isn't a practical option right now except for the enemies she can drag into the dungeon).

I agree -- I would love more insight into her vision. It was a dramatic end to a scene and a great line, but what does it really mean? Democracy? Or a monarchy with no more nobility and no titles?

On another note, part of me was hoping that Tyrion would immediately lay out plans for Dany's administration. Like how to best move an economy forward that had relied on slave labor. Since labor unions and minimum wage are probably too modern, I'm thinking trade guilds would be a good place to start. The guilds could set their own rules for the various skilled occupations, including pay rates.

 

Clearly I'm thinking too much about this.

Edited June 2, 2015 by Andromeda

[wayne67]

Clearly I'm thinking too much about this.

 

I'm mentally stuck on whether White Walkers can all raise the dead and if all the White Walkers were originally human and were 'touched' by the lead White Walker as a baby. A race of necromancers. Imagine if they went to Winterfell and started raising all the dead there.

 

Do we have any idea how intact their targets have to be ? Those White Walkers could probably march about picking up the dead from the mass graves of Arya's tavern visit or Robb's wedding or Stannis's routing of the Northern Wildling army...

 

Imagine that. The White Walkers marching south and picking up 4000 corpses courtesy of Stannis. It'd be hilarious.

[Lady S.]

Traditionally episode 9 is where the shit hits the fan (Season One-Ned's Death; Season Two-Blackwater Bay; Season Three-something about a wedding?; Season 4-The Battle at the Wall). So if THAT was episode 8, what the FUCK are we in for next week??

Sansa, you've been coming along so well. So PLEASE promise me you won't be dumb enough to tell Littlefinger that there are two potentially two Stark boys still alive.

 Sansa's never actually revealed anything important to Baelish though, she lied about her ties with the Tyrells in s3 and he found out the whole truth thanks to Loras instead. Then after he helped her out of King's Landing he spent most of the time monologueing about Joffrey's murder, unspecified revenge against the Boltons, and her supposedly-kidnapped aunt Lyanna meeting Rhaegar, while she told him nothing that he didn't already know. When it comes to gossip and secret sharing, Petyr is the teenage girl in their relationship. Their first meeting had him cozying up to her by spilling the Hound's tragic backstory, for no real reason at all.

 

Ever since that S5 trailer was released with Dany saying she wanted to break the wheel, I've been wondering exactly what her plan is. It's all well and fine to say you want to change things and make the world a better place, but it's another thing entirely to have a reasonable plan to make that happen. I was really hoping that Tyrion would press her for details about how she plans to achieve this wheel breaking of hers (especially since her default is "order dragons to burn my enemies," which isn't a practical option right now except for the enemies she can drag into the dungeon).

I was assuming it'd be much stupider than it actually was, which tells you how low my expectations are for Dany's epic pronouncements.

 

Someone mentioned the detailing on the front of Dany's dress, it actually looks like dragon scaling and there are three dragon heads in the middle. There was a very nicely done exposition dump in Tyrion's first meeting with her. Now we know 1) why her sobriquet is "Stormborn" 2) that she and King Vis had to rely on others' opportunism to escape Westeros and survive in Essos after being orphaned and 3) that they also had to live as refugees on the run to avoid being assassinated. People always forget that Renly "the compassionate" Baratheon said "We should have had them both killed years ago." during the powwow about Dany's pregnancy is 1.05. I believe all the background we got in the pilot was Dany's saying they'd been at Illyrio's for a while and asking why he was still helping, implying most people had stopped being so generous in supporting the claim of her lunatic brother.

 

I don't think Tyrion actually believes he murdered his mother, but it was sad to me that he'd heard that often enough to list her as his first victim. My, how the tables have turned in House Lannister, though! This time last year Tyrion was Cersei's prisoner and sentenced to death by Tywin, now he's drinking wine (the favorite Lannister pastime) with a new queen, while Cersei has to suck water off a dirty floor. And I didn't catch this the first time, but the first thing Cersei asks Qyburn for, even before mentioning Tommen, is word from Jaime, who must seem a good deal less useless now that she's desperate. Unfortunately for her, he's now um...an honored guest of their other enemies. I hope Tywin has a nice view of his legacy in whichever of the seven hells he's now residing in.

 

I'm speculating here as I am not a book reader, but it seems clearer with every episode that Jon Snow is being positioned as the hero of the story. Look at his arc, from bastard half-brother, to the Night's Watch, among the criminals and no-hopers of Westeros, to Lord Commander and born leader of men. It's almost a trope.

Almost? Jon's story is pretty straight Hero's Journey to me, all that's missing is the big reveal about his secret Targ parentage. But then I think he and Dany have both always been set up as the messiah-figures, and that Bran and Arya are the ones twisting tropes on very dark and sometimes boring hero's journeys. Idk what the hell kind of journey Sansa's on, but break the cutie is a very common trope across all genres.

 

I saw a comment on another site that it was a good sign that Theon kept slipping into the 1st person instead of the 3rd when Sansa confronted him. "I did terrible things. Turned on Robb. Captured Winterfell. Killed those boys." "I couldn't find them. It was two farm boys. I killed them and burned them so no one would know." "I can't talk to you anymore." It's only when she keeps interrogating him about Bran and Rickon's whereabouts (a question he can't really answer anyway) that he burst back into Reek mode. As for why she should believe him, she had to force it out of him, he no longer has the mental wherewithal to make shit up on his own, and Ramsay can't be behind this reveal since he'd never want to give her good news about her non-bastard family. Jon has always been a Stark in all but name, but as long as he holds true to his NW vows then the black brothers are his only family. As someone earlier noted, it's Bran and Rickon's survival that means House Stark is still alive, which is why Sansa said she'd still have a family if it weren't for Theon.

 

Fun casting fact: the whore Arya passed on her wheelbarrow rounds was the same Braavosi whore seen with Salladhor Saan when he and Davos met up again in 4.06.

[Hansey]

Cersei is technically still part of House Barratheon by marriage and most likely lost the claim to Castlery Rock.

This reminds me of something that's really been bugging me... she is always referred to on the show as Cersei Lannister. By everyone. Shouldn't she still be Cersei Baratheon (even if she doesn't like it)? Or do widows get to take their former name back?

Also, ITA with everyone who knew Karsi was a goner as soon as she told her kids she'd see them soon. My husband and I looked at each other and I said, "Oh, she's *so* dead." He nodded and said, "Yeah, never say stuff like that..."

[Winnief]

I saw a comment on another site that it was a good sign that Theon kept slipping into the 1st person instead of the 3rd when Sansa confronted him. "I did terrible things. Turned on Robb. Captured Winterfell. Killed those boys." "I couldn't find them. It was two farm boys. I killed them and burned them so no one would know." "I can't talk to you anymore." It's only when she keeps interrogating him about Bran and Rickon's whereabouts (a question he can't really answer anyway) that he burst back into Reek mode. As for why she should believe him, she had to force it out of him, he no longer has the mental wherewithal to make shit up on his own, and Ramsay can't be behind this reveal since he'd never want to give her good news about her non-bastard family.

 

Good catch on the move from 1st to 3rd person.  Ironically, Theon's foster sister as opposed to his blood sister is much more effective at getting him to remember his true identity.

 

Fun casting fact: the whore Arya passed on her wheelbarrow rounds was the same Braavosi whore seen with Salladhor Saan when he and Davos met up again in 4.06.

 

I noticed that too. 

 

This reminds me of something that's really been bugging me... she is always referred to on the show as Cersei Lannister. By everyone. Shouldn't she still be Cersei Baratheon (even if she doesn't like it)? Or do widows get to take their former name back

 

Even before her widowhood, even before the twincest was discovered, Cersei was always identified as being a Lannister first and foremost far more than as a Baratheon by marriage.  She certainly identified *herself* according to those terms and of course her children were pure Lannister without any Baratheon at all except by name. 

[Lady S.]

This reminds me of something that's really been bugging me... she is always referred to on the show as Cersei Lannister. By everyone. Shouldn't she still be Cersei Baratheon (even if she doesn't like it)? Or do widows get to take their former name back?

Also, ITA with everyone who knew Karsi was a goner as soon as she told her kids she'd see them soon. My husband and I looked at each other and I said, "Oh, she's *so* dead." He nodded and said, "Yeah, never say stuff like that..."

I don't think wives ever have to drop their maiden names, just gain their husbands in addition. Joffrey was actually titled "his Grace, Joffrey of Houses Baratheon and Lannister, the first of his name" in s1 and as "Joffrey of the Houses Lannister and Baratheon" during his fatal wedding, which I assume was thanks to Mummy Dearest. Tommen's coronation was notable for only listing House Baratheon, but if that was a PR legitimacy attempt, it was a little late. And Tommen's banners still show the Lannister lion together with the crowned stag, and he used the same red-and-gold wedding cloak to marry Marg as Joff had before him. But using both parents sigils isn't unique to the Lanniscest boys, Bran wore his trout pin with a direwolf collar as Lord of Winterfell in s2, and Sansa's latest wedding dress was Stark grey and white with two little trout hanging down the seam.

Edited June 2, 2015 by Lady S.

[terrymct]

I'm guessing there is a difference between the Caster babies who are taken by the White Walkers and placed on the glam-rock stage, and the undead wights. Otherwise undead zombie babies would really be a massive pain in the ass.

 

 

I hope at some point we learn a bit more about the White Walkers.  It seems inefficient and unsustainable to base an entire population on babies you steal or are given by an incestuous mad man.

[Morrigan2575]

Ever since that S5 trailer was released with Dany saying she wanted to break the wheel, I've been wondering exactly what her plan is. It's all well and fine to say you want to change things and make the world a better place, but it's another thing entirely to have a reasonable plan to make that happen. I was really hoping that Tyrion would press her for details about how she plans to achieve this wheel breaking of hers (especially since her default is "order dragons to burn my enemies," which isn't a practical option right now except for the enemies she can drag into the dungeon).

I was honestly disappointed that the scene didn't end with Tyrion asking "How?" or "And then what?"

The way that scene was framed this was supposed to be Dany's shining moment of leadership/Destiny to Rule and all I could think was, how does this idiot girl plan to do that and survive? How does the kingdom survive? Dany is still an idiot, I don't get why people (in the show) think she deserves to win.

Edited June 2, 2015 by Morrigan2575

[darkestboy]

The final 20 minutes of this episode were some of the maddest I've seen with the show. They went all out with the White Walkers and the wildlings fighting each other.

 

Jon might have done more harm than good this week, even if he did manage to kill a few himself.

 

Cersei in the prison. I almost feel bad for her but her own stupidity is what led to her current predicament.

 

Sansa found out that Bran and Rickon were alive. Is it really bad that I want her to kill Theon/Reek as much as I want her to kill either Ramsay or Roose?

 

Loving the scenes with Daenerys and Tyrion. They're a good team so far. Jorah, poor thing, really not his week, 8/10

[DrSpaceman]

If Cersei were really as smart as she thinks she is, she'd confess...to sex with Lancel ONLY.

 

Not sure if the "incest" referred to is the Lancel sex (probably not as relations between cousins are not all that frowned upon) or Jaime sex.

 

There is NO PROOF of anything Lancel said, regarding murder or anything else. It's basically her word against his -- Selmy who was on the hunt with the fortified wine is long gone...

 

So Cersei SHOULD confess "Yes, I took Lancel as a lover...I was so devastated when Robert died and war broke out...I needed someone to hold me and figured a family member was safe...I was weak...FORGIVE ME!"

 

She has to get out of the killing the king thing or else she's a goner....and I don't THINK they would kill her off.

 

Question re: Uncle Kevan. Is HE the "Lord" now? Since Tywin's sons are out of the running -- Jaime is in the Kingsguard and Tyrion is an exiled patricide -- does Uncle Kevan now become head of the Lannister family? Does he rule now at Casterly Rock?

  That is a thought, just confessing to sex with her cousin, though I don't view this as a forgiving world where they would take into account her extenuating circumstances in regard to her punishment

[Knuckles]

The idea of "proof" being needed when facing a court of religious fanatics is ludicrous. Lancel's word, now that he has been purified,would be enough.  And they still have Olyvar to take down Loras, and by extension, Margaery.  

Lancel, as Cerise's former bedmate, and cousin, surely knows that her children are incestuous bastards...and so do the people in Flea Bottom, who screamed  "bastard" at Tommen.  Even Bronn accepts as common knowledge that Jaime fathered Cerise's children. 

The High Sparrow is using the incest charge to attack the throne.

[mojoween]

The High Sparrow is using the incest charge to attack the throne.

And all with the backing of Miss Cersei herself, who could not see the forest for the trees.

[proserpina65]

This is what happens when you can't be arsed to make actual allies, lady. Now she's left her milksop son wide open to be manipulated by Kevan and whoever else wants to puppet-rule Westeros.

 

To be fair, Kevan is the least likely person to manipulate Tommen or anyone else.  Unlike almost every person who's ever shown interest in the Iron Throne, he probably would actually make a good king.  Too bad he's not in line for it.

[proserpina65]

Whoever mentioned Jorah being hot, he's been hot from the beginning. So very different from the creepy boyfriend of Mary in Downton Abbey.

I think he is a man who improves with age.  I just saw Darkness from 2002, and he was pretty nerdy.  I wouldn't have described him as hot back then.

 

Idk, I thought he was pretty hot when I first saw him in Mountains of the Moon in 1990.  I think it's the role that makes the difference.  Although yes, he has definitely aged well.

[NoWillToResist]

I'll miss the Loreal White Walker but give a warm welcome to his successor Darth Maul White Walker. 

 

Glad I'm not the only one who noticed the resemblance!

 

I wonder if dragon fire also kills them. I suspect they do.. Ooh things are getting interesting... Fire and ice indeed

 

The dude Jon killed walked through fire without any problem. Is dragon fire special?

 

 

I also thought when one of the white walker kings raised his hand he was going to freeze the water so they couldn't get away.

 

Cersei is not having fun but I'll give her this, she doesn't cave easily.  And Sansa was very regal and terrifying, I wonder if she's getting her revenge planned?  Arya's story is not compelling to me at this point though A Man is hot as hell. 

 

I was worried that the water wouldn't stop them or that he'd freeze the water too. Nice to see that wasn't the case. Jon, get thee to an island! :)  Does this mean that Dany and everyone on the eastern side of this world is ok since they're across the sea?

 

Why does everyone still call Cersei the Queen? She isn't and hasn't been since Joffrey was crowned.

 

I couldn't care any less about Arya's storyline. The only thing it's good for is that I like "A Man"'s voice.

 

Dumb idiots not to tuck that dragon glass inside their waistbands -- I hope they have a plan to get some more, they're treating it awfully disposably, starting with Sam leaving his knife behind after he killed that White Walker. 

 

I'm a little confused if they're saying all Cersei has to do is own up to her sins, then all will be OK. Because the charges include TREASON and INCEST and ASSASSINATION of her husband, the reigning monarch -- pretty big deals for a sitting queen, or anybody for that matter (well, the treason and assassination charges).

 

I could not believe that Jon didn't keep closer watch on the dragon glass. And now it's all lost. Bloody brilliant.

 

So is that giant getting on one of Stannis' ships?  I would have liked to see him climb aboard a ship.

 

Maybe he can push all the ships to get them moving faster. :) I'm glad he survived. I loved the juxtaposition of humans getting massacred by the wights and the giant's body language was all "ugh, get the fuck OFF me, dammit! Winter's bugs are the worst!"

 

It was interesting to see both Jon and the White Walker's look of surprise when Jon parried the Walker's cut and Jon's Valyrian steel sword did not shatter into innumerable pieces.

 

I laughed so hard.

 

"My concern is that the Faith does not adhere to the same standards of proof as the crown" - Qyburn

 

I wouldn't think that would be possible.

 

...right?

 

I love Tormund, but whacking that guy to death was the most extreme instance of gay panic I've ever seen, and I had a raised eyebrow about it. It's fine if he had to kill him, but I would have preferred a different insult to instigate it, maybe?

 

I thought it was hilarious that Tormund beat that guy to death and not a single person gave a shit or tried to stop it. It's almost as if they were all "well, he did imply that Tor was gay so clearly he deserved death". It's annoying that THAT was what pushed Tormund over the edge, but IMO it's not surprising.

[LuciaMia]

In the category of 'scenes we'd like to see...'  Don't know how far South the White walkers will get, but I would love to see the High Sparrow's reaction witnessing that scene of the dead resurrecting into Wights.  "Where's your seven gods now, Bub?"

[DrSparkles]

It's so nice to have Dany and Tyrion finally together. Is it just me or were they flirting a little?

IMO, Tyrion seems to have a flirtatious tone with everyone! Or maybe it's PD, I saw him on TDS or CR and he seemed flirtatious there too!

[CeeBeeGee]

 

Why does everyone still call Cersei the Queen? She isn't and hasn't been since Joffrey was crowned.

 

Cersei has been the Dowager Queen ever since Robert died. I can't remember if the show is using the style "Queen Mother" but that's a new invention--the late Queen Mum (the current Queen Elizabeth's mother) came up with it after her husband George VI died so young.

[monakane]

I hope at some point we learn a bit more about the White Walkers.  It seems inefficient and unsustainable to base an entire population on babies you steal or are given by an incestuous mad man.

 

I'm fascinated by them.  I hope we get some character development/insights.

[Winnief]

Jon's story is pretty straight Hero's Journey to me, all that's missing is the big reveal about his secret Targ parentage. But then I think he and Dany have both always been set up as the messiah-figures, and that Bran and Arya are the ones twisting tropes on very dark and sometimes boring hero's journeys. Idk what the hell kind of journey Sansa's on

 

Which is one reason why I find Sansa so intriguing.  There's certainly a lot of "Break the Cutie" there but it seems like there's a larger plan as well and her story arc is in some ways the hardest to predict. 

[panthergirl13]

Also do they eat a lot of seafood at Winterfell? Arya got really good at shucking oysters!

Haha... I said "Damn, girl! It would take me an hour to get that thing open!"

[layniemac]

 

I don't think Tyrion actually believes he murdered his mother, but it was sad to me that he'd heard that often enough to list her as his first victim.

I think he used that as his opening line attention grabber. He's smart enough to know it's not true, but it set the course of how his immediate family treated him literally from the moment he was born.

[justawatcher]

On the white walker guy resurrecting the dead: I took it as if you get killed by a white walker or wight, then you get resurrected into the group, but if you're dead in a cemetery, you stay dead.

[annsterg]

It would be interesting to know if the Lord of Bones was re-animated -- the one person who died at Hardhome, but NOT from the army of the dead's activities.

[bbolto]

Hi, this is fun you guys...

 

The battle scene was crazy and tense and good but I did not understand why the 500-foot-tall wave of zombie mist somehow stopped at Hardhome's crappy wooden palisade. Unless it was, like, White Walkers Tasmanian Devilling their way through the Wildlings? Well anyway it was very dramatic. Game of Thrones seems to me to like throwing all of its effort into a few particularly epic productions each season and kinda skimping on the rest. I guess this season more so than ever!

 

I also totally think Karsi would make a good protege for Lagertha, and I was also dumb enough to think she'd live through the episode. Whoops!

 

I feel like Dany, whether she thinks about this or not, has no choice but to "break the wheel" because she is probably infertile. That said she strikes me more as a "l'etat c'est moi" type than a democratic reformer...

 

I will be very mad if Ramsay's bullshit psycho killer bad guy plot armor holds up through his stupid, stupid plan – I think he's got to fall in the clutches of Melisandre who is going to be Sansa's agent of ginger revenge. I wonder if she can use his blood or uh whatever to make a Bolton-killing shadow baby? Sometimes though Game of Thrones applies arbitrary competence to its characters which is one of the show's more exasperating qualities. So I really have no idea what is going to happen.

[Hansey]

On the white walker guy resurrecting the dead: I took it as if you get killed by a white walker or wight, then you get resurrected into the group, but if you're dead in a cemetery, you stay dead.

I'm not so sure about this. Wasn't there a scene at some point (a few seasons back, maybe) where someone said that the wildlings burn their dead to prevent them from being raised by the white walkers? This is only a vague recollection of mine, so it's entirely possible I'm misremembering.

[Hecate7]

I'm not so sure about this. Wasn't there a scene at some point (a few seasons back, maybe) where someone said that the wildlings burn their dead to prevent them from being raised by the white walkers? This is only a vague recollection of mine, so it's entirely possible I'm misremembering.

 

Yes. They can raise people who are buried, or who just lay dead where they fell. The only way not to get used by the white walkers, is to be cremated. Apparently some wildlings have forgotten this, or more likely a lot of bodies just have never been found.

I will be very mad if Ramsay's bullshit psycho killer bad guy plot armor holds up through his stupid, stupid plan – I think he's got to fall in the clutches of Melisandre who is going to be Sansa's agent of ginger revenge. I wonder if she can use his blood or uh whatever to make a Bolton-killing shadow baby? Sometimes though Game of Thrones applies arbitrary competence to its characters which is one of the show's more exasperating qualities. So I really have no idea what is going to happen.

 

Sadly, Ramsey has no king's blood at all. Theon, however, is prince of the Iron Isles, and Sansa is the sister of the King of the North. Ramsey's the only one Melisande would not be interested in burning.

[paigow]

I thought it was hilarious that Tormund beat that guy to death and not a single person gave a shit or tried to stop it. It's almost as if they were all "well, he did imply that Tor was gay so clearly he deserved death"

Looks like the Sparrows & Wildlings could form a "Coalition of the Homophobic" - assuming any of them survive Sith Walker.

[bbolto]

Sadly, Ramsey has no king's blood at all. Theon, however, is prince of the Iron Isles, and Sansa is the sister of the King of the North. Ramsey's the only one Melisande would not be interested in burning.

 

Oh, I bet you're right, hence Melisandre's interest in Shireen – I was thinking the shadow baby was sort of a sympathetic-magic-type thing where you just needed the fluids of a relative of your intended victim but probably not. That said Melisandre will burn just about anybody! – Mance Rayder, dudes who talk shit about the one true god, what have you.

[rozen]

I was honestly disappointed that the scene didn't end with Tyrion asking "How?" or "And then what?"

The way that scene was framed this was supposed to be Dany's shining moment of leadership/Destiny to Rule and all I could think was, how does this idiot girl plan to do that and survive? How does the kingdom survive? Dany is still an idiot, I don't get why people (in the show) think she deserves to win.

 

Dany makes dumb choices, but she does it in pursuit of a noble ideal. She's stubborn, but not completely set in her ways and will take guidance when offered in the right way.She's gaining experience at a phenomenal rate through the sheer level of country conquest she's achieved in a short time. And she's sitting on 3 nuke equivalents, poised to strike on medieval-age Westeros. On the ability to actually make shit happen scale, she pretty much blows everyone else away. If interested in simply preserving the status quo, Dany washes out with everyone else. 

[annsterg]

Every time I think about Melisandre at Winterfell, I worry that crazy bitch will destroy the Stark weyrwood...

Need a reminder: who ended up with that Valeryian steel dagger -- the one that was used during the Bran murder attempt and that Littlefinger said was Tyrion's?

[Dobian]

That must have been the most expensive episode to film of the season.  The whole battle with the White Walkers and their undead army was very elaborate and on par with what you would see in a movie.  The pairing of Dany and Tyrion is very intriguing.  He is the perfect advisor to her, and she has a lot to learn from him.  Cersei, you're a bitch, but I do kind of want to see you turn the tables on your prison guard.  They have a real opportunity to pull some of these plot threads that have been dangling over five seasons even close together with the last two episodes.

Edited June 3, 2015 by Dobian

[The Mormegil]

Need a reminder: who ended up with that Valeryian steel dagger -- the one that was used during the Bran murder attempt and that Littlefinger said was Tyrion's?

 

I think the last time it was seen was on Ned's desk in the Hand's Office just before Littlefinger betrays him.

 

I would guess that once Ned was rotting in a dungeon Littlefinger popped back into the office and recovered it.

[midge]

The final 20 minutes of this episode were some of the maddest I've seen with the show. They went all out with the White Walkers and the wildlings fighting each other.

 

Jon might have done more harm than good this week, even if he did manage to kill a few himself.

 

Cersei in the prison. I almost feel bad for her but her own stupidity is what led to her current predicament.

 

Sansa found out that Bran and Rickon were alive. Is it really bad that I want her to kill Theon/Reek as much as I want her to kill either Ramsay or Roose?

 

Loving the scenes with Daenerys and Tyrion. They're a good team so far. Jorah, poor thing, really not his week, 8/10

It could be argued that if he hadn't been there the only Wildings left would  be the ones imprisoned in Castle Black though.   And they have more intel on the White Walkers, even if they can't make sense of it yet. 

[Mz Anthrope]

I still need to keep reading everyone's posts (only up to page 2 of comments so far), but I keep thinking about something Stannis said offhandedly at The Wall

 

He was looking at the dragon glass and said it was plentiful where he came from/grew up. 

 

So, could this possibly be a major banding together of leaders to defeat the White Walkers and the Dead Army?  Dany and her dragons, John and anyone with Valaryian steel, and Stannis sailing back to his homeland, get as much dragon glass as possible, and arm as many as are still alive?   And Bran - who knows what may be doing -- maybe a lot of Dr Xavier stuff and looking around to find other wargs or something?  I dunno...

 

Those three, to me, just seem like the ones really rising to the top right now.  Who knows what the eff is going to happen next week.. Dany could marry Tyrion and Jorah kill 'em both then infect all of those around him and everyone move back to Stone People Creepville so he can at least be where Dany's family hailed from.  (and yes, that massively unlikely rabbit hole was kind of fun to run through :-D  )

 

Just wondering how, if at all, this will all arc/play out. 

 

And count me in as being someone who's wondering where Varys is.  He might just be keeping tabs on Littlefinger. 

By the by - speaking of peeps long since heard from... what about (and pardon, but I've forgotten his name) the dude who Red Witch seduced that Onion helped get away by boat??

 

Okay, back to reading some great posts :-)

[Lady S.]

I was honestly disappointed that the scene didn't end with Tyrion asking "How?" or "And then what?"

The way that scene was framed this was supposed to be Dany's shining moment of leadership/Destiny to Rule and all I could think was, how does this idiot girl plan to do that and survive? How does the kingdom survive? Dany is still an idiot, I don't get why people (in the show) think she deserves to win.

Because they have very limited choices? It's not about finding the best person for the job, it's about choosing who to support of the contenders with a claim. The only alternatives to the Lannisters are Stannis or Dany, and Varys kinda made the choice for Tyrion, though I doubt a Tyrion/Stannis partnership was ever in the cards to begin with for a vast number of reasons. I don't think this series is endorsing anyone's destiny to rule since that's a more idealistic fantasy trope. IIRC, the only person who's talked of Dany in terms of Fate was Jorah about the birth of the dragons, but Jorah is madly in love with her and has been acting idiotic based on that so I don't think his opinion of Dany is meant to be definitive.

 

The dude Jon killed walked through fire without any problem. Is dragon fire special?

 

Why does everyone still call Cersei the Queen? She isn't and hasn't been since Joffrey was crowned.

 

I thought it was hilarious that Tormund beat that guy to death and not a single person gave a shit or tried to stop it. It's almost as if they were all "well, he did imply that Tor was gay so clearly he deserved death". It's annoying that THAT was what pushed Tormund over the edge, but IMO it's not surprising.

Consorts don't lose their titles once they're widowed, they just become dowagers. Oberyn was needling Cersei about no longer being the relevant Queen, probably because his sister would have been Rhaegar's Queen if all had gone as it should. Even Ned still called her "the Queen" in their failed throne room confrontation, even though he was denying Joff's title and that would make Stan's crazy wife the new Queen. I think it's like how ex-Presidents still get called Mr. President.

 

Well, dragonglass is special and swords made by dragonriders are special, so I think it stands to reason dragonfire could work better than regular fire. Maybe Valyrian steel is forged with dragonfire.

 

I thought the Lord o' Bones's crime was just disrespecting Tormund and that he was killed to send a message after standing in the way of their mission. As a might makes right lawless people, the wildlings will only respond to strength. He had to send a message to the doubters after being captured by the crows and then befriending one of them, allowing people to question him and talk shit when he'd already lost face would only make him look weaker. It reminded me of Khal Drogo ripping out the throat of one of his men who had a problem with Dany, or Robb threatening the Greatjon with execution and then siccing Grey Wind on him. Drogo and Tormund jumped right to killing because they don't have any silly oaths or laws to use to threaten people into line.

[annsterg]

 

<snip> Maybe Valyrian steel is forged with dragonfire.

 

 

 

I don't think this can be the case, since we saw Tywin melting down Ice and RE-forging 2 swords out of it...and those 2 "child" swords were also Valyrian steel. So it must be something IN the actual metal...maybe originally, the molten steel was mixed with dragon blood or something?

[Lady S.]

I don't think this can be the case, since we saw Tywin melting down Ice and RE-forging 2 swords out of it...and those 2 "child" swords were also Valyrian steel. So it must be something IN the actual metal...maybe originally, the molten steel was mixed with dragon blood or something?

Yeah, but it wasn't going to stop being Valyrian steel, was it? Whatever magical essence was imbued in the metal (whether by dragonblood or dragonfire or whatever) to make it Valyrian appeared to be a permanent thing. He only needed someone trained to work with it since they weren't trying to make it from scratch in whatever lost ancient way the Valyrians had. The original forging of Ice would be what mattered I think.

ETA: A thought regarding the WWs' Dothraki-like aversion to open water, could it be that some power of the Wall extends laterally into the seas to east and west? I think we can safely assume there was magic involved in building the wall and magic holding it up since that kid of architecture should be impossible and maybe the Wall's height isn't its only strength since we never hear of the WWs attacking the gate the way Mance Rayder's army did, and the NW brought in the wights who tried to kill Mormont themselves, so it's like they can't get too close to the Wall on their own yet.

Edited June 3, 2015 by Lady S.

[Holmbo]

I thought the Lord o' Bones's crime was just disrespecting Tormund and that he was killed to send a message after standing in the way of their mission. As a might makes right lawless people, the wildlings will only respond to strength. He had to send a message to the doubters after being captured by the crows and then befriending one of them, allowing people to question him and talk shit when he'd already lost face would only make him look weaker. It reminded me of Khal Drogo ripping out the throat of one of his men who had a problem with Dany, or Robb threatening the Greatjon with execution and then siccing Grey Wind on him. Drogo and Tormund jumped right to killing because they don't have any silly oaths or laws to use to threaten people into line.

That was my take on it too. And I didn't see the disrespect to be "you like to have sex with men" but rather "you're the bitch of our enemy". It would have been just as insulting if he said it to Karsi.

[paigow]

That was my take on it too. And I didn't see the disrespect to be "you like to have sex with men" ...

Animals are clearly acceptable sex partners for Wildlings...[Tormund + Bear]...but Dude on Dude???!!! That is NOT Natural!!!!

[taanja]

Late to the game but whoa! whoa! whoa! What the hell was that????

Freakin' creepy!

Everyone in the 7 kingdoms is doomed.

[CletusMusashi]

Animals are clearly acceptable sex partners for Wildlings...[Tormund + Bear]...but Dude on Dude???!!! That is NOT Natural!!!!

So your saying Tormund is into "bears?"