S05.E08: Hardhome

[Fable]

I didn't care much for this episode.   I didn't find Dany and Tyrion at all believable.  Of course she wants him as an advisor, of course!   The 10 minute fight scene at the end was about 9 minutes too long.   Okay, they're fighting,...we get it.  I did like Sansa/Cersei/Arya stuff, but we only got about 2 minutes of any of it.  They could have shaved half at least from the Wilding crap and given us a better taste of any of these stories.  Or Hell, maybe filled us in on Jamie/Bronn or even Brienne/Pod.

[Pogojoco]

I thought having noble kids raised by other nobles was pretty normal in Westeros and that it's part of creating alliances between houses. Ned, Robert, and Littlefinger were all fostered in the Vale. Before the events of the book, there was the whole question of who would foster Sweet Robin with Stannis and Tywin wanting him because it guaranteed alliance with the Vale. 

I agree. Fostering Theon, and raising him and treating him like a noble person, strengthens the alliance between the North and the Iron Born. Robb and Theon are friends, and both are heirs to their respective houses. Ned, of course, didn't count on dying when Robb was still a kid and Theon being a suck and having bat shit, pirate uncles, but his intentions were good. 

 

Count me in on wondering why Tyrion doesn't mention Dorne as being a potential ally to Danaerys. Especially since the Martells are likely to be the most supportive (Dany's sister in law was one) and the Martells are sending envoys etc to Dany in the book. Plus, it's not like they get on with the current regent. 

[Pogojoco]

Did the show not give us verification that this was Joffrey's dumbass idea?

 

Ok, Show.  Now that you went through the trouble of showing the audience how important Valyrian Steel is do you think you could finally explain how Bran's would be assassin got his hands on a knife made out of that incredibly rare metal? 

It was Littlefinger's knife, used to frame Tyrion and yes, Joffrey's dumbass idea to hire that guy using the knife. I'm pretty sure he mentions it to Catelyn and that's how she knows to arrest Tyrion. 

 

Littlefinger is actually descended from House Corbray in the Vale, which has a Valyrian Steel sword. But he probably got the knife from the black market or whatever the equivalent is. 

[that one guy]

I think it's more likely that Dany is Azor Azai because:

"It is written in prophecy as well. When the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt to wake dragons out of stone."

 

and the only person we know to wake dragons out of stone is Dany - which happened while the comet (the Red Star) was visible. That said the "snow on the iron throne" imagery does sound like foreshadowing of Jon being King. But you don't have to be AA to be King, Tommen certainly isn't the Red God's Messiah.

Re: the timing of the assault on Hardhome - I read it as the White Walkers were content to starve the Wildlings out for a while, and only attacked because their scouts saw the boats leaving. That's also why there were two waves of attack - the Walkers attacked with the wights they had (not the wights they wished they had) and the reinforcements arrived as quickly as they could. Basically the timing wasn't great, but the longer they waited the more people escaped, so they had to attack immediately. The operation was only a partial success because so many escaped - the goal was essentially "kill everyone."

 

Does this mean that everyone north of the wall is now dead, or worse? There were a hundred thousand people in Mance's host. That almost makes me wish the Wildlings had won at Castle Black.

[hacman00]

It was Littlefinger's knife, used to frame Tyrion and yes, Joffrey's dumbass idea to hire that guy using the knife. I'm pretty sure he mentions it to Catelyn and that's how she knows to arrest Tyrion. 

 

Littlefinger is actually descended from House Corbray in the Vale, which has a Valyrian Steel sword. But he probably got the knife from the black market or whatever the equivalent is. 

The show never bothered to bring it up again after the questioning of Jaimie in Season 1.  I think it's a big deal but I guess D&D and everyone else don't. 

[Dev F]

I think it's more likely that Dany is Azor Azai because:

 

"It is written in prophecy as well. When the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt to wake dragons out of stone."

 

and the only person we know to wake dragons out of stone is Dany - which happened while the comet (the Red Star) was visible.

 

But the prophecy doesn't say that AA will "wake dragons out of stone" when the red star bleeds. That's when he/she is supposed to be reborn, right? Presumably the dragon-waking comes subsequent to that. So I wouldn't see that as specific confirmation of Dany's AA-hood.

[MadMouse]

I think it's more likely that Dany is Azor Azai because:

and the only person we know to wake dragons out of stone is Dany - which happened while the comet (the Red Star) was visible. That said the "snow on the iron throne" imagery does sound like foreshadowing of Jon being King. But you don't have to be AA to be King, Tommen certainly isn't the Red God's Messiah.

 

When the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt to wake dragons out of stone."

 

Jon's last chapter in Dance fits all these criteria except the dragon part and that's only if you believe it means literal dragons. Martin has shown a few times that prophecies concerning dragons can refer to Targs being born or revealed. 

[Chris24601]

Pretty sure 'dead or worse' does include everyone left north of the Wall at this point yeah. And while it probably would have better for the Wildings... I'm not sure they were all that interested in standing and fighting once they got south of the Wall or if they'd just end up spending themselves trying to get further south ahead of the advancing army of the dead, taking out a bunch of other realms in the process and just make the Walker's job that much easier.

It would also mean Jon Snow would almost certainly dead and I don't know that anyone else has what it takes to unite everyone against the Walkers (Mance could unite the Wildlings, but his status as a Night's Watch deserter would limit his ability to recruit south of the Wall... Dany's dragons will be useful, but Tyrion is right that she's too much an outsider to Westeros to really pull everyone together the way Jon, who's been fighting this enemy from the start and has no ambitions for power will be able to do).

[CarobCake]

Also, Arya's Faceless Man training is going to come into play at some point in the end game.  She's going to kill somebody important to the plot.  We just don't know who at this point.  

 

Please let it be Ramsay, let it be Ramsay! It would be so wonderful in oh so many ways... specially if she does it WITH Sansa.

[nksarmi]

We should probably use the whole prophesy even if they haven't named it on the show:

 

"There will come a day after a long summer when the stars bleed and the cold breath of darkness falls heavy on the world. In this dread hour a warrior shall draw from the fire a burning sword. And that sword shall be Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes, and he who clasps it shall be Azor Ahai come again, and the darkness shall flee before him."

 

This part of the AA prophesy doesn't pin point the requirement to raise dragons from stone, but it does say that Lightbringer must be clasped by AA which seems at this point to put Dany out of the running.  Why would she ever grasp a sword let alone wield one?

 

Melisandre is the one who said "When the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, AA shall be born again amidst smoke and salt" which seems to not be a promise of AA's first birth like those who think it's Dany because she was born in a storm, but rather his second - more closely to Dany's rebirth in the fire when her dragons awoke. 

 

But we should also go back to the idea that not everyone think Azor Ahai and the PTWP are the same.  In Dany's vision, Rhaegar is looking at Aegon and says "He is the prince that was promised and his is the song of ice and fire." But being the literal combination of ice (Starks) and fire (Targs) definitely seems to only described Jon if R+L=J. 

 

Finally, there is "the dragon has three heads" part of Dany's vision which seems to drive the need for three Targs.  Perhaps the dragon must have three heads in order for AA/PTWP to realize his/her power?  We have Dany and probably Jon, but with Aegon removed and Master Aemon dead, we need another Targ.  I have never liked the idea of Tyrion being Dany's half brother, but perhaps that is where they are going after all.

[benteen]

To this day, I have no idea why D&D didn't bother to explain Joffrey's role in the Bran assassination and seems to forget think the audience just forgot all about it.  The only thing I could come up with is that they went out of the way to make Joffrey look even more hideous than he was in the book (and he was an awful person in it) with stuff like him being responsible for that bastard massacre that they thought having him take the blame for it was just overkill.

[Winnief]

Finally, there is "the dragon has three heads" part of Dany's vision which seems to drive the need for three Targs.  Perhaps the dragon must have three heads in order for AA/PTWP to realize his/her power?  We have Dany and probably Jon, but with Aegon removed and Master Aemon dead, we need another Targ.  I have never liked the idea of Tyrion being Dany's half brother, but perhaps that is where they are going after all.

 

 

Maybe the 'third head' doesn't have to be Targaryen at all.  Perhaps Tyrion or someone else could ride Visenya if Bran warged the dragon.  Alternatively, there are others in Westeros of Valyrian blood-including the Baratheons. 

[tennisgurl]

I will forgive so many of my issues with this season, even if its just a little bit, because it gave us:

 

The pure looks of "What the ever loving fuck?" expressions of Ed and Jon when the ice zombies were throwing themselves over and the ledge, and...

 

Ice Zombie vs. Winter Giant! Winter Giant stomping zombies like ants! 

[SeanC]

To this day, I have no idea why D&D didn't bother to explain Joffrey's role in the Bran assassination and seems to forget think the audience just forgot all about it.  The only thing I could come up with is that they went out of the way to make Joffrey look even more hideous than he was in the book (and he was an awful person in it) with stuff like him being responsible for that bastard massacre that they thought having him take the blame for it was just overkill.

I think there are two possible explanations:

 

(1)  Since the explanation is almost universally considered underwhelming, and delivered way past the point when people are thinking about it, they decided not to bother with it.

 

(2)  They decided to make Littlefinger responsible instead (a common fix-it by fans who didn't like the book explanation), and will reveal that at some later date.

[Miles]

I didn't see any sexism in Karsi being struck immobile with horror and grief at the sight of the wight children. My impression is that she knew at least one of them - the one on the right who seemed completely intact except for the glowing eyes - and probably most of them. I think it's unrealistic (if you can say that about this situation to begin with) to expect her to start wildly hewing at some little kids who probably played with her own kids not that long ago.

Why would that be unrealistic? They are dead and she has her own alive kids to think about, who are not save with the crows. I would slash those things to pieces just as easily as I would slash any adult wight and I'm not even a warrior (which is why I would do a bad job, but I still wouldn't discriminate).

I've seen this sentiment 2 or 3 times, and honestly I think it's possible we've reached a point of occasionally looking for things to be offended by. I didn't read it as being "uterus" driven, as the weirdly reductive joke goes now, but as her being struck dumb by the sheer, absolute horror of the mute zombie kids, who are basically the creepiest thing on this whole show. After that hesitation, there were just too many of them.

I think quite often that people just search for things to be offended by, as evidenced by the past few weeks, but this is different. I can't read this as anything but her being uterus-driven, when she is the only prominent female fighter here and the writers made it a point to show that she has kids. I doubt they would have shown a man just standing there, getting ripped to pieces by a bunch of baby wights.

I don't quite get it. If a woman becomes a victim due to circumstances beyond her control, like most characters in this show have been at some point, that's somehow sexism. But when a woman gets herself killed because the pull off her uterus is so strong that she can't kill a bunch of zombies, at which she is usually very proficiant, that's perfectly fine...

But where is it acceptable in our world for first cousins to have sex? (All jokes about hillbillies aside.)

In most countries it's perfectly legal to marry your first cousin. Why wouldn't it? The risk that offspring will have birth defects isn't any higer than when perfect stranger mate.

The only big missing thing at this point is, he has no desire for the Iron Throne.

That is the thing that qualifies him the most to actually sit it, though.

I'd love Dany on the Iron Throne, but if she can't have kids, Westeros would probably face a new civil war after her death.

There were some weird conditions to that curse. Something like "your womb will quicken again only when the sun rises in the west", which the witch clearly meant to be something impossible, but I suspect we will see at some point, by a dragon spitting a big fireball in the west, or something like that.

The mindless undead people on The Walking Dead are just plain walkers.

I thought those were called Rick, Glenn, Maggie, Carl, etc. *badam dish*

To this day, I have no idea why D&D didn't bother to explain Joffrey's role in the Bran assassination and seems to forget think the audience just forgot all about it.

I actually think they probably forgot about it.

[henripootel]

But where is it acceptable in our world for first cousins to have sex?  (All jokes about hillbillies aside.)

 

Utah for one.  I knew of 4 or 5 first cousin marriages there.  People weren't wild about telling folks but they didn't think there was anything too weird about it.  I did but it was just outside my experience, plus my cousins ... I wouldn't marry.

In most countries it's perfectly legal to marry your first cousin. Why wouldn't it? The risk that offspring will have birth defects isn't any higer than when perfect stranger mate.

Actually it's quite a bit higher than background.  For the average relatedness to be equal to first cousins, you'd need a pretty small, fairly endogamous group.  Pretty sure first cousins count as inbreeding to a biologist, legal or not.

[The Mighty Peanut]

First cousin marriage is not really a big deal, unless your families have a lot of prior close connections. It's legal in most of the world, though not common in the West anymore.

I'm in Michigan and when I got married all I remember about getting a marriage certificate was having to swear that I wasn't marrying another woman (which, of course, is infinitely less scandalous and not even comparable to marrying a relative) and that to the best of my knowledge I wasn't related to my husband. I am not contradicting what you wrote, just thinking out loud how easy it would be to marry a relative since they don't do, like, bloodline checks. It would probably come out through taxes, I'd imagine.

Anyway, Cersei is beautiful. You'd think she could find someone to have sexytimes with that wasn't on her family tree.

Edited June 2, 2015 by The Mighty Peanut

[Avaleigh]

I  had the same problems with the books:  I can't enjoy Cersei's punishment as much as I'd like, because the ones doing  the punishment are as disgusting as she is. They're torturing her  into confessing. And yes, she's guilty, but if she had  been innocent, she'd  be still going mad with thirst. She would still confess in order to  get some water. Karma is a  bitch and Cersei has made her own  bed, but the High Septon and  his nuns deserve to die in a fire as soon as possible too.

This is how I feel. Septa Ratchet is a disgusting human being as well as far as I'm concerned and she seems like she's getting off on things like depriving a person of water and slapping them repeatedly in the face. How does she know for certain that Cersei is guilty of everything she's been accused of? A person will confess to practically anything if they're being deprived of water, food, and sleep. Who knows how Margaery has been treated but it certainly didn't look good. 

 

These people suck and I hope Dany overthrows them whenever she finally rolls into town. So far she has very little connection to the Faith of the Seven. 

[Constantinople]

I think quite often that people just search for things to be offended by, as evidenced by the past few weeks, but this is different. I can't read this as anything but her being uterus-driven, when she is the only prominent female fighter here and the writers made it a point to show that she has kids. I doubt they would have shown a man just standing there, getting ripped to pieces by a bunch of baby wights.

They did show a bunch of men just sitting there, including Jon Snow, in a row boat, not rowing, or barely rowing, when they had no idea what the wights or the Night King would do next, though common sense suggested that it would be better to be farther away from them than nearer.

[SeanC]

These people suck and I hope Dany overthrows them whenever she finally rolls into town. So far she has very little connection to the Faith of the Seven. 

I think it's implied that Dany's own men also use torture to secure information (they certainly did in the books, with her explicit authorization).  It's a commonly-accepted practice in this world (and in the Middle Ages).

Edited June 2, 2015 by SeanC

[Avaleigh]

Maybe the 'third head' doesn't have to be Targaryen at all.  Perhaps Tyrion or someone else could ride Visenya if Bran warged the dragon.  Alternatively, there are others in Westeros of Valyrian blood-including the Baratheons. 

I wonder if anyone really wants to see Gendry ride a dragon. Shireen doesn't seem like a better option than Tyrion to me but that's just personal preference. At least show Shireen didn't have any dreams about how a dragon was coming to eat her. I was always nervous about that in the books. 

 

They did show a bunch of men just sitting there, including Jon Snow, in a row boat, not rowing, or barely rowing, when they had no idea what the wights or the Night King would do next, though common sense suggested that it would be better to be farther away from them than nearer.

How about Jon and Ed just staring as what looked like a hundred or so wights came falling over that hill? I feel like common sense would have told them to run instantly but they had to wait to be sure that the wights would start chasing them.

 

It's rather strongly implied that Dany's own men also use torture to secure information.  It's a commonly-accepted practice in this world (and in the Middle Ages).

I guess it's the hypocrisy that grates for me since they want to paint it as being this pure and good institution and every episode makes it seem like it's anything but. At least Dany knows what she is on some level and she didn't really argue when Tyrion called her terrible. She isn't my first or even second choice, but she does seem like a better alternative than the HS.  

[Miles]

Actually it's quite a bit higher than background.  For the average relatedness to be equal to first cousins, you'd need a pretty small, fairly endogamous group.  Pretty sure first cousins count as inbreeding to a biologist, legal or not.

The risk for most illnesses is about 1% higher: http://www.nytimes.com/2002/04/04/us/few-risks-seen-to-the-children-of-1st-cousins.html

I wouldn't call that "quite a bit".

If you have a known genetic disease running in the family it's probably a good idea to get some gene tests done to see if you carry those genes, but otherwise you'll be fine.

Now, I wouldn't marry my cousins, but for completely different reasons. :D

They did show a bunch of men just sitting there, including Jon Snow, in a row boat, not rowing, or barely rowing, when they had no idea what the wights or the Night King would do next, though common sense suggested that it would be better to be farther away from them than nearer.

And were any of them actually killed for that? That was just style over substance, where the director wanted to get a good shot with both prties visible, not something that was clearly written into the script. Edited June 2, 2015 by Miles

[Attaboy000]

Anyone else getting a kick out of reading the non-book/Unsullied threads and seeing everybody love Jon Snow suddenly...mwuahahaha! You'd think they would catch on finally

[Pete Martell]

I thought having noble kids raised by other nobles was pretty normal in Westeros and that it's part of creating alliances between houses. Ned, Robert, and Littlefinger were all fostered in the Vale. Before the events of the book, there was the whole question of who would foster Sweet Robin with Stannis and Tywin wanting him because it guaranteed alliance with the Vale. 

 

This wasn't really fostering though - it was a way of keeping the Greyjoys in check after killing off the other two male heirs. Of course as time passed, Balon didn't give a shit whether Theon lived or died, and Ned just kept him as a ward out of duty, but I don't think any of the idea of it was based on alliances between houses.

Anyone else getting a kick out of reading the non-book/Unsullied threads and seeing everybody love Jon Snow suddenly...mwuahahaha! You'd think they would catch on finally

 

I think the CW for many (not all) TV fans will always be that Arya/Tyrion/Dany are awesome and every scene should be about them, but yes, I'm glad more fans aren't just using the default, "The Wall and Jon are so boring!" 

 

Of course, the decline in quality of nearly every other story helps...

Edited June 2, 2015 by Pete Martell

[Heathrowe]

It is legal to marry your cousin in 20 states, including NJ and Maryland. 6 more states allow it under special circumstance. The US is the only country with any laws prohibiting cousin marriage.

[Isthisok]

First cousin marriage is not really a big deal, unless your families have a lot of prior close connections. It's legal in most of the world, though not common in the West anymore.

Exhibit A of generations of cousin marriage: Gypsy Sisters

[benteen]

Yeah, I don't know what the hell Jon and Edd were waiting for when the wights crashed over the side of the ledge.  This is right after Edd told him "We're going to fucking DIE if we stay!"

 

About Theon...I seem to recall a passage in ACOK where Bran thinks that he didn't like Theon too much.  Even though Theon saved his life.  Am I correct in remembering that?

 

As for Ned, I do wonder if he would have killed Theon if Balon had risen up again.

[Winnief]

Also marriage between cousins was relatively common in Jane Austen's time as well.  All this is to say that if/when the truth about Jon's parentage comes to light a marriage between him and one of the Stark sisters would *not* be considered abnormal by the standards of the day, nor illegal in the eyes of the Faith, or even especially medically risky either.  Jon's mother may have been their father's sister but his father and their mother had no relation to them or to each other.  Though it may still be hard for viewers to accept especially given he was raised as their half sibling.

 

Of course it still wouldn't be *nearly* as tough as Jon marrying his own *aunt* in a family where past in-breeding contributed to mental illness.  Just saying. 

 

Anyone else getting a kick out of reading the non-book/Unsullied threads and seeing everybody love Jon Snow suddenly...mwuahahaha! You'd think they would catch on finally

 

I think the CW for many (not all) TV fans will always be that Arya/Tyrion/Dany are awesome and every scene should be about them, but yes, I'm glad more fans aren't just using the default, "The Wall and Jon are so boring!"

 

To be fair, these last couple of seasons the storyline at the Wall hasn't just improved for the show, but is arguably more exciting and interesting than in the books, since the White Walkers seem so much more real a threat.  Even before "Hard Home," after all we had that ending scene in "Oathkeeper."  And for the record, something that was true for me in the books, but has become more so lately on the show is that Sansa's arc is actually becoming more interesting than Arya's.  Again, like events at the Wall getting more interesting than KL to show where the focus of the series is inevitably shifting, that might be a somewhat deliberate choice as well.  It could be the 'girly girl' sister might actually be the larger threat/greater future power player than the badass tomboy of the family...especially if certain theories about the YMBQ are correct.  It's certainly suggestive that D&D put Sansa closer to where the *real* action on the show is these days. 

[coops]

I can understand peoples fustration at the fact they can't enjoy Cersei's downfall because the people punishing her are just as bad as she is, but that's supposed to be the point- she's getting a taste of her own medicine at the hands of people who, like her, are wicked. I feel I can't really enjoy Cersei's crumbling downfall because we haven't been treated to the full on, crazy, bloodthirsty bitch she is in the books. By the time we get to this point in the books we have only once or twice seen Cersei breakdown and act like a human but in the show she is blubbing almost every other episode and some of her most awful deeds were given to Joffery so her imprisonment and future walk of shame wont really have the same impact as it did for me in the books. In the book you either enjoy seeing her downfall after all she has done or you are shocked by feeling sorry for such a monster. The show has already tried to get us to feel sorry for her before now so its not as much of a big deal as it should be.

[trif]

I noticed a parallel between Dany's speech about breaking the wheel and the High Sparrow's speech about the many no longer fearing the few.  They're both casting their actions as benefiting the common man at the expense of the aristocracy.  It'd be interesting to see them interact, because on the surface it looks like they have the same goal but they really don't.  Dany is aiming for absolute monarchy / enlightened despotism, while HS wants basically a theocracy.

 

 

I took Dany's speech about "breaking, not stopping" the wheel to mean putting power directly in the hands of the people. Stopping the wheel, with herself on top, would be an absolute monarchy. That is Varys's vision and I think the most most "good" people in Westeros are even capable of imagining, which feels very realistic to me.  Yet at the same time I find it realistic that Dany, given her history, messianic/hint of maddness personality, would actually be capable of imagining a different system - of breaking the wheel.

 

 

As for Ned, I do wonder if he would have killed Theon if Balon had risen up again.

 

I won't say it's impossible but Ned seems to believe in not holding sons responsible for the sins of the parents as much as any of his other principles so I seriously doubt that this would be a matter of course decision, or that Ned conveyed such, in his attitude towards Theon. Which is not to say that Theon's position was just like any other foster, but I got the sense that at least part of the idea was that they were hoping to create a future ally in Theon (with various family members feeling more or less optimistic about the progress being made).

 

I agree with the poster that said that Theon is one of GRRM's best characters. I think it's because there's so much legitimate ambiguity in his position that most would feel at least somewhat conflicted and resentful about. I think if you dropped 10 different children into that situation at the age of 10, and waited for them to grow up, you'd get 10 different interpretations as to how much a part of the faimly they were, what they were most resentful about, who was to blame, etc. 

Edited June 2, 2015 by trif

[Ambrosefolly]

Sorry, but fuck Dany, the Targaryen and the desire to dismantle Westeros society, targeting the noble houses, and dismantling it in favor of her benevolent dictatorship . Except for a few marriages (and only because the least likely candidate ended being king), the Targaryens were always outsiders and invaders, even after 400 years. They don't have the thousands of years of history that all the houses, great or small have. The North seemed to genuinely like the Stark. I liked what some else suggested, that the Seven Kingdoms, should be just that, seven kingdoms. 

[Winnief]

Except for a few marriages (and only because the least likely candidate ended being king), the Targaryens were always outsiders and invaders, even after 400 years. They don't have the thousands of years of history that all the houses, great or small have. The North seemed to genuinely like the Stark.

 

Not to mention the part where half the Targaryens were batshit crazy.

 

In the Unsullied thread they were suggesting, that Westeros might want to start transitioning towards a constitutional monarchy albeit slowly, and I threw in that they could also stand to learn from Braavos which more Enlightenment ideals.

 

Also it's worth noting that at least once in the past the Ruler was selected via Grand Council, and I wouldn't be surprised if that bit of history repeats itself. 

 

And as big a dick as Theon could be, I couldn't help pitying him a bit, because he was essentially a child of two cultures and neither one really took hold.  Too much Iron Born to be a Stark.  Too much time with the Starks to be accepted among the Iron Born.  He was in a sense always doomed though he still managed to make things worse for himself.  It was always a good character arc and Alfie raised it to the next level.

[ViewerPDX]

Utah for one.  I knew of 4 or 5 first cousin marriages there.  People weren't wild about telling folks but they didn't think there was anything too weird about it.  I did but it was just outside my experience, plus my cousins ... I wouldn't marry.

 

 

First cousin marriage is allowed in these states under the following circumstances:

Arizona- if both are 65 or older, or one is unable to reproduce.

Illinois- if both are 50 or older, or one is unable to reproduce.

Indiana- if both are at least 65.

Maine- if couple obtains a physician's certificate of genetic counseling.

Utah- if both are 65 or older, or if both are 55 or older and one is unable to reproduce.

Wisconsin- if the woman is 55 or older, or one is unable to reproduce.

*

North Carolina- First cousin marriage is legal. Double cousin marriage is prohibited

 

http://www.ncsl.org/research/human-services/state-laws-regarding-marriages-between-first-cousi.aspx

 

You must know of a bunch of old people in Utah who are cousins and decided to marry late in life?  Maine seems to be the outlier here to me.

 

 

 

 

 

[SeanC]

As for Ned, I do wonder if he would have killed Theon if Balon had risen up again.

I believe GRRM was asked about this and said that Ned would have.  He would have had to promise to do so as a condition of establishing the hostage-situation to begin with.

[ViewerPDX]

Regarding Lord Commander Snow and Olly, so many things differently have happened at this point in the Wall tale that I won't be surprised if Jon survives the attack, either via some "maestering" from Sam, some "fire magic" from Melisandre, and that GRRM put that at the end of Dance with Dragons to build suspense, only to show that he survives and recovers while Stannis is fighting the Boltons.  Lose Jon Snow at this point, and the entire Wall becomes nothing due to the power vacuum that would ensue.  

Edited June 2, 2015 by ViewerPDX

[jeansheridan]

I wouldn't. Bitch deserves everything she gets. I have absolutely no sympathy for her.

She deserves to go to trial for killing Robert but on the show what else has she done other than being a hypocrit? She had Lady killed. That's awful. How much is she to blame for Joeffrey' s behavior? Not much once he is king. She does blindly protect her children. Is that a flaw? She hates Tyrion but I do think she fully believes he killed her son.

Cersei isn't nice. As Tyrion would suggest she is the wrong kind of terrible, putting her family ahead of a greater worldview. But how many people do put family first? I think it is an understandable flaw. I just can't see show Cersei as an all out villain. Book Cersei is much more violent. Plus a broken Cersei is no fun to watch.

I hate the nuns for their treatment of Maergary too. She doesn't deserve a wet prison cell and no shoes. They are punishing her for putting her brother before their petty rules.

Like Jaime she does need to account for her choices. But not to these people.

Edited June 2, 2015 by jeansheridan

[henripootel]

You must know of a bunch of old people in Utah who are cousins and decided to marry late in life?

Nope - every one was young, and I think all had kids.  It's Utah, and first cousin marriages aren't even near the top of the list for 'shit not talked about'.  

The risk for most illnesses is about 1% higher: http://www.nytimes.c...st-cousins.html Iwouldn't call that "quite a bit".

I'll have to walk this down the hall to my go-to genetics guy but I'd bet this depends greatly on population size and structure.  It's amazing how little outbreeding it takes to tamp down the adverse affects of a bit of inbreeding.  My bet is that it can get a good deal higher than 1% but not in huge and expanding populations.

He was in a sense always doomed though he still managed to make things worse for himself.  It was always a good character arc and Alfie raised it to the next level.

I'll give the actor a lot of credit, he's made Theon somewhat watchable.  Quite the feat, since I found him the fucking Iron-born the most tedious part of the latter books, and that's saying something.  Still not feeling much of any sympathy for Theon though.  I've read the books and think he's a bastard to the core, richly deserving of the abuse he got, although after chapters and chapters of it I started to feel like I was being tortured too.

Edited June 2, 2015 by henripootel

[InsertWordHere]

Queen Victoria married her first cousin 175 years ago. At one point, most of the monarchs of Europe were descended from that union. Regardless of how it is viewed in modern America, I don't think first cousin relationships would be viewed as incest in the world of Game of Thrones. In Cersei's case, the adultery, fornication, and regicide should be more of a concern. So unless they mean Jaime, I don't get why the Faith would list that as one of their charges. 

[Hecate7]

It was Littlefinger's knife, used to frame Tyrion and yes, Joffrey's dumbass idea to hire that guy using the knife. I'm pretty sure he mentions it to Catelyn and that's how she knows to arrest Tyrion. 

 

Littlefinger is actually descended from House Corbray in the Vale, which has a Valyrian Steel sword. But he probably got the knife from the black market or whatever the equivalent is. 

 

No, Joffrey took the dagger from Robert Baratheon's own collection, which is why I have always said that if Catelyn had simply presented the dagger to Robert and asked for justice, the matter would have come to an end very quickly, with no war at all. Of course Joffrey would have been hit up the side of the head again.

 

Littlefinger told Catelyn it was his own dagger, as a ploy to build trust. Only an innocent man would claim the weapon as his own. He showed disarming "honesty," and then explained how he had lost the dagger in a wager with Tyrion Lannister. In fact the wager never happened, the dagger NEVER belonged to Littlefinger, and the whole story was made up by him to move Catelyn to start a war by arresting Tyrion.

 

The dagger actually belonged to Robert Baratheon, who had absolutely no idea that it was even missing.

I think there are two possible explanations:

 

(1)  Since the explanation is almost universally considered underwhelming, and delivered way past the point when people are thinking about it, they decided not to bother with it.

 

(2)  They decided to make Littlefinger responsible instead (a common fix-it by fans who didn't like the book explanation), and will reveal that at some later date.

3) They forgot, or really weren't paying enough attention to know why that answer was important.

[Avaleigh]

She deserves to go to trial for killing Robert but on the show what else has she done other than being a hypocrit? She had Lady killed. That's awful. How much is she to blame for Joeffrey' s behavior? Not much once he is king. She does blindly protect her children. Is that a flaw? She hates Tyrion but I do think she fully believes he killed her son.

Cersei isn't nice. As Tyrion would suggest she is the wrong kind of terrible, putting her family ahead of a greater worldview. But how many people do put family first? I think it is an understandable flaw. I just can't see show Cersei as an all out villain. Book Cersei is much more violent. Plus a broken Cersei is no fun to watch.

I hate the nuns for their treatment of Maergary too. She doesn't deserve a wet prison cell and no shoes. They are punishing her for putting her brother before their petty rules.

Like Jaime she does need to account for her choices. But not to these people.

I agree with this entire post. It would be different to me if she were being held to account by different people for different reasons. That's a large part of why it's difficult for me to enjoy her downfall. I also think it's harder because I know that the Walk is coming and I just can't support anything like that for any reason. In the books to me even though Cersei is a more horrible character, the way she's punished for her sexuality completely grossed me out and I appreciate that the show has dialed back on that aspect of it.  

 

I thought I'd see more sympathy for Margaery and Loras at the very least but it seems like more focus has been on what an incompetent Tommen is. 

[Andromeda]

I thought I'd see more sympathy for Margaery and Loras at the very least but it seems like more focus has been on what an incompetent Tommen is. 

I'm worried Margaery will be stuck in that cell all year if they don't free her in the next two episodes! I want my Margaery back! OK, Loras, too.

[Winnief]

I'm worried Margaery will be stuck in that cell all year if they don't free her in the next two episodes! I want my Margaery back! OK, Loras, too.

 

I think Olenna and Kevan between them will get Margaery and Loras out of prison at least while they await their trial.  I have a theory that something unfortunate will soon befall Olyvar and with the key witness against them gone, the Faith will be forced to release the Tyrell siblings.

[SeanC]

I'm worried Margaery will be stuck in that cell all year if they don't free her in the next two episodes! I want my Margaery back! OK, Loras, too.

This is the fourth straight season where the Tyrells start out the year as a big deal and then fade into the background by the latter half.

[Notwisconsin]

While that would have made more sense, that wasn't true. She put her children on one of the boats.  The Wights and the White Walkers apparently aren't waterproof, so Jon and the others could escape.

Maybe not ALL of them. This is an Ice-age society we're talking about, those "Fee Folk" and medicine was was extremely primitive and ineffective. She could have had five or six and only two were still alive.

[lucindabelle]

Is it possible fangs father wasn't mad after all but wanted to burn the city to stave off white walkers?

I dunno something about the way "the mad king" keeps being repeated is giving me pause.

[Avaleigh]

I think Olenna and Kevan between them will get Margaery and Loras out of prison at least while they await their trial.  I have a theory that something unfortunate will soon befall Olyvar and with the key witness against them gone, the Faith will be forced to release the Tyrell siblings.

We probably don't have time but if the Faith score a conviction against the Tyrell sibs this season then couldn't that scare Cersei into confessing to the less serious stuff which will then lead her to the Walk? Or maybe she hears that Margaery has been released until the trial starts and that makes her willing to do the Walk because she'll be concerned about Margaery having all of that time alone with Tommen. 

 

ETA:

 

Did anybody else wish that Jon had picked up the White Walker's weapon after he killed it?

Edited June 2, 2015 by Avaleigh

[Knuckles]

In the books, Cersei was truly evil...murdering her best friend as a child, and ordering the killing of all of Robert's bastards, even the infants. On the show, she is a cold-hearted bitch, but that is a different thing.  The Queen of  Thorns had no trouble plotting and pulling off regicide, so she could be sitting in that cell just a easily as Cersei if it were known. In a way, it is simply realpolitik...but Cersei did seem to enjoy it, unlike Olenna, who saw it as simply necessary business, which makes Cersei more of a target of fan hatred.

i loathe jailers and torturers and am rooting for Cersei to show some steel. If Jaime gets a redemption arc, after murdering his cousin to escape, and throwing Bran out a window, why should Cersei be denied. 

[BlackberryJam]

She deserves to go to trial for killing Robert but on the show what else has she done other than being a hypocrit? She had Lady killed. That's awful. How much is she to blame for Joeffrey' s behavior? Not much once he is king. She does blindly protect her children. Is that a flaw? She hates Tyrion but I do think she fully believes he killed her son.

 

Decapitated dwarfs. This character sipped on some wine while a dwarf head rolled across the table and she did not blink an eye. How do people not remember this? She ordered the decapitated of all dwarfs. Hating Tyrion is not justification for that.

 

*bangs head into wall*

 

What has Cersei done? Honestly, HONESTLY people. 

[mac123x]

Regarding the rarity of Valaryian steel:  the show is kind of vague on that.  In the books, it's pretty rare but there are still hundreds of VS-based weapons in the Seven Kingdoms.  We see a few of them (Lyn Corbray's Lady Forlorn, Randyll Tarley's greatsword) and hear about others.

 

In the show, we've only seen or heard of a few weapons: Longclaw, Ice (and it's derivative swords), the dagger.  But both Brienne and Jaime recognized VS on sight, so it has to be common enough that they've both seen it before.

 

 

 

There were some weird conditions to that curse. Something like "your womb will quicken again only when the sun rises in the west", which the witch clearly meant to be something impossible, but I suspect we will see at some point, by a dragon spitting a big fireball in the west, or something like that.

 

"When the sun rises in the west, and sets in the east.  When the seas go dry, and the mountains blow in the wind like leaves."

 

The sun rising in the west and setting in the east is (metaphorically) Quentin Martell.  Since the show has excised him, I'm guessing that Mirri Maaz Dhur's "prophecy" isn't as important as it seems in the books.

 

Edit -- west and east are confusing directions.

Edited June 2, 2015 by mac123x

[The Mormegil]

No, Joffrey took the dagger from Robert Baratheon's own collection, which is why I have always said that if Catelyn had simply presented the dagger to Robert and asked for justice, the matter would have come to an end very quickly, with no war at all. Of course Joffrey would have been hit up the side of the head again.

 

Littlefinger told Catelyn it was his own dagger, as a ploy to build trust. Only an innocent man would claim the weapon as his own. He showed disarming "honesty," and then explained how he had lost the dagger in a wager with Tyrion Lannister. In fact the wager never happened, the dagger NEVER belonged to Littlefinger, and the whole story was made up by him to move Catelyn to start a war by arresting Tyrion.

 

The dagger actually belonged to Robert Baratheon, who had absolutely no idea that it was even missing.

3) They forgot, or really weren't paying enough attention to know why that answer was important.

 

 

I can't recall if this is specifically stated in the books or not but The Ice and Fire Wiki states that Littlefinger did lose the dagger while betting at the Tourney only he lost it to Robert and not Tyrion as he claimed.

Edited June 2, 2015 by The Mormegil