S05.E07: The Gift

[The Mighty Peanut]

I have never had sex in Game of Thrones-esque medieval times (thank God) but I think -- well, I hope -- there's a difference between an average man who believes sex is part of the overall property agreement, and psychopathic torture-murderers. I think the former would be more likely to try to make the sex a non-horrific, albeit probably not pleasurable experience for the woman, whereas Ramsey strove to make Sansa's first time the most painful and humiliating experience imaginable without permanently physically damaging her. Rape is about power -- Ramsay was getting off on intentionally roughly fucking this beautiful highborn girl in her own home that he has stolen while a childhood friend she believes helped him murder her family watched the debasement. He actively sought to traumatize her. Ned and Cat were an arranged pair too, but Ned wouldn't have consummated the marriage like that.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that even for the time period this still seems like a clear cut case of rape (even if it wouldn't have been considered a criminal offense), and that I think it's less to do with Theon or Sansa being victims than it is about Ramsey being a horrible person. Which we already knew, but again it comes down to us seeing all of his other horrors and tortures, why would this instance of violence that is totally in keeping with his character be seen as particularly exploitative?

Edited May 25, 2015 by The Mighty Peanut

[MrWhyt]

That was a pretty pathetic turn-out for the fighting pits considering those people were so pissed Dany closed them. I kept wondering if it was like fighting pit dress rehearsal.

 

That wasn't The Fighting Pits, it was a lower tier one, a farm team if you will. It was explained that it was tradition for the rulers to visit the lower pits before the big fight in order to honor all the fighters.

[One Tough Cookie]

I'm a bit confused--Marcella has been in Dorne, according to her for years now", yet baby Sam it still a newborn? 

 

LOVED seeing Cersei in the cell.

Counting down to Ramsey's inevitable death...

 

Bronn better not die.

[Andromeda]

That was a pretty pathetic turn-out for the fighting pits considering those people were so pissed Dany closed them. I kept wondering if it was like fighting pit dress rehearsal.

I thought it was a dress rehearsal. The winner gets to go to the Big Games in the capital. Really dumb to all fight to the death, though, when it's not even the main event. Wasteful in the extreme. What slave owner would agree to seeing his investment trashed without having a chance to properly train and improve for a comeback?

Edited May 25, 2015 by Andromeda

[AimingforYoko]

I got a kick out of the look in Cersei's face when Tommen said he loved Margary. Awesome acting by Lena Headey. Just minor twitches, but you could see how much it bothered her to hear that.

As much as I enjoyed Cersei's comeuppance, I hope her punishment is such that it leaves her on the show. Lena Headey just killed it in this ep. She really is the Queen. (Of wordless acting)

[Duke Silver]

Any episodes full of Sam/Gilly makes it an instant :yawn: for me.  Some good things this episode, but I agree w/ the apparent consensus that it was mostly underwhelming...as is this season to date.

 

The fight scenes suck this year as well.

[paigow]

That wasn't The Fighting Pits, it was a lower tier one, a farm team if you will.

Minor League 4: The Pit Years- "Wild Thing" chooses mortal combat over rehab....

[Mz Anthrope]

The fight scenes suck this year as well.

Without question.  The Sand 'fight' (can't even call it a faux skirmish) was sad to be kind.  For all the writers/directors have delivered with previous fight scenes, seems like they're letting the interns take the reigns this season

[madam magpie]

I just think that when portraying the sort of dehumanizing and brutal violence against women that our modern society is still combating, the writers have a responsibility to connect that violence with the basic humanity and personhood of the woman it happens to, or else it is only misogyny-as-entertainment, which is problematic.

Do you mean you don't see a connection between what's happening to Sansa and her self? I do. I think we're seeing a pretty tortured, trapped person trying to figure out how to save herself. It hasn't happened yet, but eventually something will, I imagine.

And the thing with Gilly was, as someone said up thread, meant to show how violent and dangerous life at the wall is without leadership. It's why Stannis didn't leave his family there and why we're meant to be worried about Sam and Gilly. I think the writers have a responsibility to their story to make the events and actions purposeful, but I have to say, I don't think they inherently owe the women of the world sensitivity. This is the story they want to tell, and it's certainly legitimate to criticize it, but I'd hate to say a writer owes his audience anything except a good story. If it becomes a cause, that should come later, I think. Plus, since I haven't read the books and the show isn't over, I can't say I know for certain what the complete story or message will be. If have to wait until it's over for that.

Edited May 25, 2015 by madam magpie

[izabella]

I'd hate to say a writer owes his audience anything except a good story

 

I question how good a story it is when, after years of torture, murder, betrayal, rapes, wars, stabbings, poisonings, and various body parts being chopped off, we're just given episode after episode of more of the same with no end in sight.  I'm getting tired of all of it, not just the rapes, near rapes and gratuitous boob scenes.  I'm starting to think the author has no real story to tell and is just milking it, marking time, as long as possible.  That makes the misogyny as entertainment that much more unbearable, just like the torture-porn became with Theon.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

For example, a feminist Sansa who kicks Ramsay's butt out a freakin' window might not be true to medieval Europe, but you know what else isn't true to that time period? Zombies and Dragons.

Ha! Thanks for bringing some much needed levity (as well as logical points) to this discussion.

[Kite]

Can't seem to be too overjoyed about Cersei's downfall. Guess I'm just too creeped out by the religious nutters, and I get where her "sins" came from. Still, girl had it coming to her.

The Sansa thing was pretty bloody gratuitous. And why does it have to always be beautiful young women suffering oh so beautifully? If it's realism you want, little children, men, old women, get/got raped plenty too. "Vikings" the show as a gritty historical analogue seems to be missing the reality that men were routinely raped by victors in battle, as well as male slaves by their masters, for instance, but that's not sexy stuff. Not entertaining.

Definitely excited to see Tyrion meet Danaerys. Fina-bloody-lly! That storyline has been a very pretty exotic set piece giving us sunshine and dark skinned savages relieving us from northern Irish clouds and pale skinned savages, and now we can link em up a bit. Tyrion is a perfect foil for Dany.

WTF was that boobs scene? Must have been one of the most gratuitous of the show, or what. Still, she had rather nice breasts which made the scene fun, cannot deny, but that scene is so much more pointless for those who can't appreciate, which is most women, who routinely get deprioritised by creators. Exhibit one, male gaze.

I've heard the Sand Snakes are pretty awesome in the books, but they seem pretty stripped of menace on the show, more like rebellious teenage girls who think they can play with the big boys.

[RedheadZombie]

I thought the fighting pits were reopened for free men.  They didn't seem to be hiding the slave chains.  What am I missing?

 

Have they showed or referred to LF having sex with anyone other than Lysa?  He seems completely asexual to me.  He wasn't tempted by Sansa, and he didn't seem to mind that Ramsay would be taking her virginity, instead of him.  He also seemed disinterested while training his whores.

 

With this last episode, LF seems more powerful than the Lannisters and the Tyrells.  LF's information put Margaery and Loras in jail, and Olenna was powerless without his help.  He is now responsible for the information that placed two queens and a powerful heir behind bars.  Yet people continue to trust him and work with him.  I want him to realize he is responsible for the situation that Sansa is in, and better yet - I hope she tells him how much she hates him.  Poor Sansa.  She put her faith in the man who brought about her father's death.  And that began the destruction of the Stark family.  I want her to know these things, and I want to see her spit in his face. 

 

Meh, Theon/Reek did her a favor. He knows perfectly well how smart Ramsay is, and what happens when people disobey him (esp in a "boring" way). Sansa was asking for a one-way trip to a flayed hand, at best. And daddy Roose, with his full fighting force, is stationed in every nook and cranny of Winterfell. Girl, no.

 

This is my thinking at this point.  They made a point of showing Theon's humanity, by his reaction to Sansa's rape.  They also showed him moved somewhat by her appeal.  He knows Ramsay better than anyone, and he knows how dangerous it is for Sansa to attempt an escape.  Theon thinks Ramsay is all powerful, and he knows nothing about Brienne.  In his mind, it's impossible for Sansa to escape, and he knows she'll die trying.

 

I don't understand why Roose allows Ramsay to run amuck in his sadistic endeavors.  It's not possible that Roose doesn't realize that Sansa is being held as a sex hostage.  She's never seen for her meals.  Roose obviously treats his own wife decently.  She seems happy enough, and she doesn't seem to be held hostage and raped nightly.  He must also realize how bad it looks to flay little old ladies.  Roose is a traitor from a family familiar with brutality, but he's ambitious.  He also seems to have self-control.  Why doesn't he rein in Ramsay?

[Andromeda]

I don't understand why Roose allows Ramsay to run amuck in his sadistic endeavors.  It's not possible that Roose doesn't realize that Sansa is being held as a sex hostage.  She's never seen for her meals.  Roose obviously treats his own wife decently.  She seems happy enough, and she doesn't seem to be held hostage and raped nightly.  He must also realize how bad it looks to flay little old ladies.  Roose is a traitor from a family familiar with brutality, but he's ambitious.  He also seems to have self-control.  Why doesn't he rein in Ramsay?

I agree, it doesn't really make a whole lot of sense that Ramsey is behaving so abominably while his father is in residence, for all the reasons you name. I was wondering that, too, about Sansa not appearing for meals. I would think Walda would invite her to her daily sewing circle (Sansa enjoyed needlepoint back in the day, and was good at it), and would wonder why she never saw Sansa in the hall or parlors of Winterfell. Roose also is well aware about the danger of inciting the northern citizens, which he warned Ramsey about after Ramsey flayed the family who refused to pay their taxes. So why isn't he concerned that he hasn't set eyes on his new daughter-in-law since the wedding?

[Chief Queef]

I've always found the "historical accuracy" argument pretty weak for a show that also features dragons, napalm attacks and the freaking walking dead as everyday occurrences. It's not a period drama, it's a show set in a fantasy world with some allusions to medieval Europe. And even if rape is a commonplace occurrence in this world, that doesn't mean viewers aren't allowed a critical response to WHEN and HOW it is portrayed. On a show where naked female bodies are routinely portrayed as mute, sexualized scenery objects complete with leering porn-y camera pans, I think it's a reasonable expectation that viewers will be somewhat suspicious of how the writers (who are 100% male this season afaik?) choose to portray sexual violence against women. And at the end of the day it's a 21st century show marketed toward a 21st century audience - of course contemporary sexual politics are relevant to the discussion!

That said, I think we actually are seeing some growth with Sansa. She's gotten an admirably quick read on Ramsay and has already begun using his weaknesses against him. I also don't think her revenge, when it comes, will be in the form of a big crazy feminist moment of kicking Ramsay out the window or whatever. I think it'll be through trickery and subterfuge designed to tear the Bolton family's solidarity apart from inside.

And apart from Cersei's (cheap and telegraphed from 10 miles away) comeuppance, I didn't find much to enjoy about this episode. Right now I'm questioning the writers' decision not to check in on some characters (Bran, Hodor etc.) at all this season while devoting TONS of time to uninteresting characters like the Boltons. Meanwhile some storylines (i.e. Dany at Meereen) have moved at a snail's pace, while others (Dorne) have developed in ridiculous ways. Imma need GoT to get it together before it becomes yet another victim of the dreaded HBO curse, where formerly great shows suddenly go to shit around season 4/5.

[Macbeth]

It's one thing to argue about whether a show is able to accurately portray a culture of misogyny without actually participating in the misogyny

 

I hate to say that IMO this show is participating in the misogyny at this point.  I have been a great fan of this show but if this season had happen earlier I would be so gone.  I have put so much time in this show so....

 

Gilly is a sore point for me.  A woman who is almost raped will be in no mood to have sex.  Absolutely none.  And let us not forget - as the writers obviously have - that her previous and only sexual experience was being raped by her father.  She would be completely traumatized in the area of sex.  But Gilly is not a full-blown character; she is only an appendage to Sam and his needs.  This is very poor writing on GOT's part.

 

The more I think about last night and all of the moments of degradation - the more I believe GOT and I may be heading for a divorce.

 

But I would hate to give up Tyrion in the divorce so....

 

 

[Philbert]

 

The men of the Knights Watch are seriously the worst group of people ever assembled. When Alliser leaned into Sam at the funeral pyre to say that his friends are disappearing...still? You got out of latrine duty, will you never not be salty?

 

The point has been made ad nauseum since S1 that the majority of the Night's Watch are scum. Yeah, there are some  good guys running it and in the ranks but most of them are self serving bastards. It's the reason Stannis gives for not leaving Selyse and Shireen there. Think about it, they're so bad that he'd rather risk his wife and child being killed in a battle or at least freezing to death in the snow rather than take their chances with that pack of douchebags. And these paragons of virtue are the last best hope of mankind. Thanks but I'll be putting my life savings on the Lord of Night for the win please...

Edited May 26, 2015 by Philbert

[madam magpie]

I question how good a story it is when, after years of torture, murder, betrayal, rapes, wars, stabbings, poisonings, and various body parts being chopped off, we're just given episode after episode of more of the same with no end in sight. I'm getting tired of all of it, not just the rapes, near rapes and gratuitous boob scenes. I'm starting to think the author has no real story to tell and is just milking it, marking time, as long as possible. That makes the misogyny as entertainment that much more unbearable, just like the torture-porn became with Theon.

It just depends on one's perspective, I guess. The scenes with Sansa and Theon were definitely hard for me to watch. I felt like Theon's torture went on longer than I wanted to see. But I also wasn't ever especially interested in Theon as a character (I'm still not). I am very interested in how Sansa is going to get free, though, and how she will rebuild her life and kingdom, so yeah, I think that bit is a very good story so far.

[rozen]

I agree, it doesn't really make a whole lot of sense that Ramsey is behaving so abominably while his father is in residence, for all the reasons you name. I was wondering that, too, about Sansa not appearing for meals. I would think Walda would invite her to her daily sewing circle (Sansa enjoyed needlepoint back in the day, and was good at it), and would wonder why she never saw Sansa in the hall or parlors of Winterfell. Roose also is well aware about the danger of inciting the northern citizens, which he warned Ramsey about after Ramsey flayed the family who refused to pay their taxes. So why isn't he concerned that he hasn't set eyes on his new daughter-in-law since the wedding?

 

Well, from our (mercifully short) peek into Roose's past, he was pretty wild when he was younger too. The Roose that would bother to personally hang a butcher and then rape the miller's daughter (or whatever they were) doesn't appear to exist. He's got bigger fish to fry. I imagine this is his very very sick version of "boys will be boys". As long as Sansa is alive and having Bolton deposited in her every night, I'm sure daddy will consider Ramsay to be performing his husbandly duties perfectly well. 

 

And Roose needs Fat Wanda because he still needs the Freys. For all we know he's planning to flay her the minute the alliance is unnecessary. Besides, she did grow up with Walder Frey as a father. I have no doubt that he's done sick shit to his girls that would make Craster flinch, she's probably made of sterner stuff and can handle whatever Roose delights in. 

 

I hate to say that IMO this show is participating in the misogyny at this point.  I have been a great fan of this show but if this season had happen earlier I would be so gone.  I have put so much time in this show so....

 

Gilly is a sore point for me.  A woman who is almost raped will be in no mood to have sex.  Absolutely none.  And let us not forget - as the writers obviously have - that her previous and only sexual experience was being raped by her father.  She would be completely traumatized in the area of sex.  But Gilly is not a full-blown character; she is only an appendage to Sam and his needs.  This is very poor writing on GOT's part.

 

The more I think about last night and all of the moments of degradation - the more I believe GOT and I may be heading for a divorce.

 

But I would hate to give up Tyrion in the divorce so....

 

I think it's an accurate reflection of Gilly's character. She's never been valued as anything other than a receptacle. It all she's been taught is valuable about her. She's grown up with the knowledge than any daughters she raises she will have to present to her father at his whim and the best she can hope for is that they have girls and can comfort one another. Gilly is kind of creepily practical, so yes I can see her offering sex as reward to Sam, because what else has she got to give him? Alll her actions to date seem to revolve around ensuring this strange, soft, man continues to care for her child because that's all she has. The debt's gone too high, she's got to pay it before he gets fed up with her.

[justawatcher]

I continue to spitball, especially after this episode, that Melisandre is going to burn Shireen and that Shireen will not burn ala Dany. It will have something to do with the greyscale or something magical we don't know about yet. I haven't figured out the parts but that's my guess.

 

Then again, I haven't ruled out a ship between Gendry and an aged up Arya either.

[Amarsir]

The show wants us to view things from a 21st century perspective. It applauds Arya and Brienne as plucky warrior women, presents the bigotry Tyrion faces as an injustice, and tackles religious extremism in a way that echoes modern movements

And yet the whole premise of the show relies on us accepting monarchy. I don't know if that's irony or a commentary on how willing we still are to be ruled. But it's a little odd how easily we go "oh he'd be a good king".

[missy jo]

Some of the critics noting the number of rapes on GOT noted that there have been three so far, but it's interesting that they didn't classify Ramsay's torture and violation of Theon-- which was definitely sexually focused (if perhaps not literally penetrative)-- as yet another rape.  If you count that, there's been four (not to mention the almost-rapes like with Gilly on tonight's episode).

 

 

I've taken to calling this show "Game of Rapes." Like, we get it already.

[LittleIggy]

My neighbors must have thought I was crazy when I was whooping over Cercei being hoisted by her own petard! That was awesome! And now Stansa has a dagger!

Edited May 26, 2015 by LittleIggy

[Bats27]

I thought the fighting pits were reopened for free men.  They didn't seem to be hiding the slave chains.  What am I missing?

 

Have they showed or referred to LF having sex with anyone other than Lysa?  He seems completely asexual to me.  He wasn't tempted by Sansa, and he didn't seem to mind that Ramsay would be taking her virginity, instead of him.  He also seemed disinterested while training his whores.

 

With this last episode, LF seems more powerful than the Lannisters and the Tyrells.  LF's information put Margaery and Loras in jail, and Olenna was powerless without his help.  He is now responsible for the information that placed two queens and a powerful heir behind bars.  Yet people continue to trust him and work with him.  I want him to realize he is responsible for the situation that Sansa is in, and better yet - I hope she tells him how much she hates him.  Poor Sansa.  She put her faith in the man who brought about her father's death.  And that began the destruction of the Stark family.  I want her to know these things, and I want to see her spit in his face. 

 

 

This is my thinking at this point.  They made a point of showing Theon's humanity, by his reaction to Sansa's rape.  They also showed him moved somewhat by her appeal.  He knows Ramsay better than anyone, and he knows how dangerous it is for Sansa to attempt an escape.  Theon thinks Ramsay is all powerful, and he knows nothing about Brienne.  In his mind, it's impossible for Sansa to escape, and he knows she'll die trying.

 

I don't understand why Roose allows Ramsay to run amuck in his sadistic endeavors.  It's not possible that Roose doesn't realize that Sansa is being held as a sex hostage.  She's never seen for her meals.  Roose obviously treats his own wife decently.  She seems happy enough, and she doesn't seem to be held hostage and raped nightly.  He must also realize how bad it looks to flay little old ladies.  Roose is a traitor from a family familiar with brutality, but he's ambitious.  He also seems to have self-control.  Why doesn't he rein in Ramsay?

Agreed.  I mean Roose is a bad guy himself (including being a rapist himself in the past).  But he's at least got a practical/pragmatic streak to him.  He might not have moral objections to what Ramsay is doing, but would see it as being counterproductive long-term (if he wants his family to hold onto the North).  They NEED her.  I guess the most plausible, though still kind of iffy, explanation is that he doesn't know (or at least doesn't know just HOW bad it is). 

 

But then again the only characters who's actions/motivations have made sense thus far are Ramsay and Theon, so perhaps I shouldn't be surprised.

[Gella]

The whole comparison to the mediaeval times is a moot point. High bred women weren't routinely raped and beaten. Yes, they were pawns in a political games and means to ensuring political alliances, but they had money, servants, needlepoint and hunts, medics to make sure they lived and were fit to have children, musicians to entertain them, romances (Tristan and Isolde is a fine example), etc. It was fashionable to be chivalrous towards women of high class. Henry VIII had to jump through hoops just to get a divorce from the wife he did not want, and the murder of Anne Boleyn was shocking because a Queen had not been executed before her. Queens weren't locked in towers to be raped and beaten on a nightly basis. That was not their role in life. There were also plenty of high born female schemers and power wielders. Medici women certainly come to mind.

GOT is about as truthful representation of those times as Reign on CW. It's a fantasy show. Extremely violent and extremely misogynistic, where a woman (Dany) gets raped on her wedding night and then falls in love with her rapist, and mourns his death. Or another woman (Cersei) gets raped by her lover/brother and then somehow it turns into consensual gratuitous coupling. That is a dusturbing message to convey and it has nothing to do with "well, that's how things were during the war of the roses".

[RedheadZombie]

That was awesome! And now Stansa has a dagger!

 

Is that what it was?  Clever girl - she stole it before she knew help wasn't coming.  A sign that she's becoming proactive, rather than simply waiting to be rescued.

 

I was also confused by something Cersei had.  As she was walking away from visiting Margaery, she was smirking and seemed to toss something to the ground.

 

I always love seeing Ghost, but his scene made little sense to me.  He appeared from nowhere.  He just came strolling in, as if Sam wasn't almost dead, and Gilly wasn't seconds from rape - as if time wasn't of the essence.  He also disappeared like a fart in the wind (TM The Shawshank Redemption).  The bad guys bolt and the door slams.  Ghost is never seen again.  No pat on the head.  No "good boy".  No turning and walking away with a "my work here is done" saunter.  He apparently just passed through the closed door.  I actually rewound and thought, where the hell did he go?

 

And how sad that Gilly values herself so little, that she tells Sam to just walk away next time.  

[Philbert]

 

I'm starting to think the author has no real story to tell and is just milking it, marking time, as long as possible.

 

 

Yes, well you are not alone in that...and I'm  NOT talking about Benioff and Weiss here. I honestly believe they are doing their best to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear...with very mixed results. Seriously, if you all think this season is bad....read "A Feast for Crows." It will give you a new appreciation for the work these guys do.

 

I've taken to calling this show "Game of Rapes." Like, we get it already.

 

 

Try watching "Outlander" sometime. It will give you an appreciation of the restraint this show has by comparison. No, I'm not kidding.

[Law Mom]

When Sansa took the weapony thing, my first reaction was that she will use it to kill Ramsay and that Theon will take the blame for her. That would kill two birds with one stone.

 

I was very excited for the long awaited Dany-Tyrion meeting as well. Dany has been the Aria Montgomery of this show. All of these houses and kingdoms coming together and splitting apart for five seasons, while she's off on her own show eating cake.

 

When Cersei was listening to the High Sparrow's speech about what she assumed were hypothetical sins, she did this thing where she looked off to the side, then ahead, then to the side again as realized he was talking about her and at the same time heard the guards coming for her. Amazing how she conveyed her horror and disbelief with just a few glances. Well done!

 

In the scene where Brienne was looking out the window, which was obviously shot at the same time as last week's scene where Brienne was looking out the window, did anyone else get a George Washington vibe? Just me? Okay then.

[RealityCreator]

Just watched it this evening.  When I heard several epis ago that for Sansa to get protection from Brienne, she'd have to get a lit candle into the highest window of the broken tower, I said to myself, "How is she going to do that when she's being abused and imprisoned by Ramsey?"....duh, Brienne!  Someone in imminent danger might have a wee bit of a problem pulling that off.  So dumb.  And I blame it on the writing, because the Brienne we've been shown is just not that stupid.  

 

I am in the Sansa's storyline is redundant and becoming both offensive and boring camp.  That POV has been discussed admirably above, so I'll leave it at that.  I fear that the reason her story has become so redundant and boring is because the writers are going off book at this point - or so we've been told.   The Dorne scenes are also a mess.  

 

I did enjoy seeing Cercei's comeuppance, and kudos to Lena Heady for her portrayal of going from smug to sheer horror in a minute flat.  In fact, I found all the Kings Landing scenes interesting and I'm invested in learning what happens next with all the characters there.  (Can NOT say the same about the characters at Winterfell.  I am so sick of Ramsey torture porn that I couldn't care less about watching anymore of any plot that involves him or anyone he's torturing - and, sadly, that includes Sansa.  

Edited May 26, 2015 by RealityCreator

[ElectricBoogaloo]

And how sad that Gilly values herself so little, that she tells Sam to just walk away next time.

I think it's more that, like many mothers, she values her son's life more than her own and she is willing to sacrifice herself for her child.

 

I do think that Gilly has very low self-esteem thanks to her disgusting father seeing all his children as fuck toys, which is why I think she had sex with Sam. Her only worth to her father was sex, so she thinks that's all she has to offer Sam to thank him for all his kindness. And maybe a small part of her just wanted to have sex voluntarily and with someone other than her own father (I can't remember what book it was but I recall a character who had been sexually abused by her father mentioning something along those lines).

[Holmbo]

I was thinking her reasoning was more that he wouldn't be able to stop them so they would just kill him and then rape her anyway.

Talking about Gilly does anyone else get the feeling she's not in love with Sam? It's probably meant to be portrayed like she is but it doesn't seem that way to me.

[Lady S.]

This is my thinking at this point.  They made a point of showing Theon's humanity, by his reaction to Sansa's rape.  They also showed him moved somewhat by her appeal.  He knows Ramsay better than anyone, and he knows how dangerous it is for Sansa to attempt an escape.  Theon thinks Ramsay is all powerful, and he knows nothing about Brienne.  In his mind, it's impossible for Sansa to escape, and he knows she'll die trying.

Hell, Sansa doesn't even know about Brienne. She wasn't told who sent her the message about the candle signal. Maybe she thinks there are multiple family "friends" trying to help, but it's just one woman against the whole Bolton army. A woman Roose has actually met before back in Harrenhal, so idek how Brienne plans to just infiltrate the castle. At least Yara had 50 other guys backing her up, but Theon still didn't believe he could really escape with her, why should he be more open to Sansa's escape chances when she's clearly desperate to even be talking to him while believing he murdered Bran and Rickon? It's not like she was actually about to walk out to safety and he stopped her, so how was this really another active Stark betrayal? Nothing happened to Sansa, the terrible thing was what happened to the old lady, she's the real victim there. But while witnessing her dead body is another traumatic memory, it doesn't really make Sansa any worse off than she was already.

 

I was thinking her reasoning was more that he wouldn't be able to stop them so they would just kill him and then rape her anyway.

IA, her response probably would have been different with a guy she actually believed could protect her. And I took her initiating sex with Sam so soon after being attacked to mean she was just that desensitized to rape after spending years as her father's sex slave. I guess what I appreciate about Sam/Gilly is that she's not really a damsel since she's clearly the one in charge in their relationship and believes she can take care of her own survival while only relying on him to provide for Sam Jr.

 

I'm a bit confused--Marcella has been in Dorne, according to her for years now", yet baby Sam it still a newborn?

Myrcella left for Dorne in 2.06 and Sam Jr was born in 3.03. My fanwank is that s1&2 were at least year each while s3&4 were maybe a year or less combined. There's no way Tyrion's trial and the build-up to the battle at the Wall in s4 were stretched out over more than a few months.

[Holmbo]

My view is that Sam Jr should be two by now. I can understand though that they would prefer filming with a baby than a two year old. That would be worse than the cat.

[mascan42]

It says a lot about my feelings about religious zealots that I'm actually rooting for Cersei here.

[SimoneS]

I just noticed these posts referring to Walda as "fat Walda." Has this always been a thing? Because it is not okay. I have not seen anyone referring to Sam as "fat Sam." People cannot complain about misogyny on the show and then in turn practice or tolerate it here. There is no difference between Ramsay mocking Walda's weight and referring to the character by her weight on this forum.

Edited May 26, 2015 by SimoneS

[justawatcher]

On the show moving very slow:

 

I will posit that the first time (I am aware of, since I don't read the damn books) the writers went "off-book" was in the Blackwater episode. Some character said something about some military thing being 200 ft when in the book it was 400 ft and the book readers collectively lost their minds!! They are obsessed with every detail exactly matching Martin's books and raise hell when they don't. In addition, I went and looked at Wikipedia (and thank you Wikipedia for designing the page with no spoilers. Yay!) for the book publication dates and they started in 1996 with an average of 3-4 years between them, taking a total of 15 years to get the first 5 written. Wikipedia says there are two more books to go (as of now) so I think the showrunners are simultaneously trying to keep an HBO series going, kick a writer in the ass to write faster, and realizing that if they want to do the rest of this, they are going to have to make up the ending and do it. But, I also think the author isn't going to give up control of the end of this story and we may quickly be at that point where the characters completely diverge from the books and turn into fanfic. HBO has done it before (looking at you, True Blood) so it wouldn't surprise me. What I do know if that if we are going off-book, it's time to go off-book and quit with some of this stuff and move this story along. Commit to telling the HBO version of GoT and quit worrying about the George Martin version of GoT.

@SimoneS- Roose Bolton calls her Fat Walda because Frey offered him any of his daughters in marriage and the dowry was the daughter's weight in coin. So Roose, being the practical man he is, choose the fattest one to get the most money for a dowry. From all appearances, he treats her well and she has survived at least a year as his wife and appears happy.

[Sideshow Dave]

Did anyone else get a Star Wars flashback when the slaver purchased Jorah? As he was walking away with him, Tyrion (R2 D2) is left behind saying beep boop beep (translation : " hey take me too, we're a team! You have to buy me too!" LOL!

[darkestboy]

Now that was a brilliant episode.

 

Cersei well and truly had the rug pulled from under her when she was lording it over Margaery's imprisonment, only for Lancel and the high Sparrow to turn on her as well. That's what happens when you ally with religious fanatics, people.

 

Speaking of Margaery/Loras - still think one of them won't be making it out of this season alive. Even Olenna couldn't get the High Sparrow to bend to her will. I also hope at some point she ends up taking Littlefinger down a peg or two as well.

 

I didn't expect Daenerys to actually be reunited with Jorah or meet Tyrion so early on. That should lead to some interesting developments over the next few episodes.

 

Good scenes with Jaime/Myrcella, Cersei/Tommen and even Bronn/Sand Snakes as well, though not sure why the Sand Snakes decided to spare Bronn though.

 

Ramsay needs putting down and fast. I'm bored of him terrorising Sansa and Reek now. Then again, who isn't at this rate?

 

Nice that Stannis is against sacrificing his own child too. The Sam/Gilly scenes were a little unexpected as well, 9/10

[Knuckles]

The whole comparison to the mediaeval times is a moot point... Queens weren't locked in towers to be raped and beaten on a nightly basis. That was not their role in life. There were also plenty of high born female schemers and power wielders.

 

 

[annsterg]

With all the OTHER warfare going on, I didn't expect a fullblown religious war was coming, but it sure seems that way...the Sparrow is trying to put the Seven on top, while Stannis and company are for the Lord of Light, while the Old Gods are in play for Bran, and Dany is dealing with the Sons of the Harpy (or whatever they are, that worship the winged god that Dany threw down)....

 

So...does the Night's Watch now send a raven to Oldtown to ask for a new Maester?

 

And...I don't know about you, but the first thing I want to do after sustaining a brutal beating is have sex. NOT.

Edited May 26, 2015 by annsterg

[NoWillToResist]

Myrcella is basically being very politely held hostage in Dorne, and her life is in danger, but rather than seeing her shift her understanding as to her real situation and what it means, the story is all about Jaime.

 

I can't categorize her as a hostage. Dorne didn't snatch her; her family sent her there ahead of her arranged marriage to keep her protected from the shitstorm that was happening in King's Landing. Jaime went in to sneak her out, on Cersei's orders, without consideration for the fallout of breaking that alliance. Instead of simply openly traveling to Dorne and being all 'after the Oberon business, we wanted to make sure no retributive harm would come to Mycella', they were going to just grab her and run, which is such a stupid plan on so many levels. Of course Cersei came up with it. ;)

 

Last ep, Mycella was a useless pawn, but I was very happy to see Mycella in this ep basically tell Jaime to fuck off; that she would be marrying the Dornish dude, thank you very much, and would be staying. And then sassing him that she doesn't know her at all, before swooping out of the room with all the nose-held-high indignation a sixteen year old girl can muster. I look forward to her screwing up Jaime and Cersei's plans for her.

 

As much as I enjoyed Cersei's comeuppance, I hope her punishment is such that it leaves her on the show.

 

Killing is too kind a fate in this world. Much like my hopes for Gemma on Sons of Anarchy, I am rooting for Cersei to live out the rest of her days in prison, having had her true self exposed to her loved ones such that they shun her. THAT is fitting punishment, I think.

 

I think what makes Cersei so utterly odious to me is that she has wealth, power, comfort, family, etc. She has it better than 99.9% of the population yet she's the pettiest fucking bitch in Westeros.

 

Then again, I haven't ruled out a ship between Gendry and an aged up Arya either.

 

Can someone remind me what happened to Gendry? I remember Melisandra screwing him and then I think there was something about leeches? Where is he now?

 

Queens weren't locked in towers to be raped and beaten on a nightly basis.

 

To be fair, at the end of the last episode, it just looked like Ramsay was going to force Sansa into sex on their wedding night while Theon was forced to watch. It was only in THIS episode that we saw that Ramsay has locked her in her bedroom and is basically brutalizing her nightly. I think it's fair to assume that such behaviour was NOT the norm.

And...I don't know about you, but the first thing I want to do after sustaining a brutal beating is have sex. NOT.

 

To be fair, Gilly was doing all the "work" and it looked like the least active intercourse ever. Seriously, I think she basically sat on his crotch.

Also, never underestimate a man's willingness to have sex...particularly if it's his first - and potentially only - time. Strike while the iron is hot and all that...  ;)

 

Can anyone clarify for me exactly WHY Tommen can't do anything? I mean, his mother is the one who gave the religious folks power so why can't the KING undo it? Or is it just that TOMMEN can't do anything because (A) his mother has made sure that he's weak and easily controllable, (B) his mother sent away their army, and (C ) he's well known as a bastard with no right to his kingly status?

 

If the King were still, say, Joffrey, would he be able to nix the religious group?

 

I'm interested to see what the sceptre dude's endgame is. He's put himself in a delightful position. All he needs now is to "prove" that Tommen is a Lannister instead of  Baratheon, and the whole monarchy is gone, presumably leaving him in control. Once that's happened, will his vows of poverty and humility be shown to be false?

 

Is it because he's young and a total wuss thanks to his mother making sure he's easily controllable? Is it becuase

Edited May 26, 2015 by NoWillToResist

[Drogo]

 

The hips were working arguably better back then. 

[Drogo]

 

Can someone remind me what happened to Gendry? I remember Melisandra screwing him and then I think there was something about leeches? Where is he now?

At the end of Season 3, Davos freed Gendry, shoved him into a rowboat and gave him directions to King's Landing.  He couldn't swim, so yeah... could be fish food now. 

[LuciaMia]

 

Cersei well and truly had the rug pulled from under her when she was lording it over

She did have a great parting line to one of her jailers: "Look at my face. This will be the last thing you see before you die!"

[NoWillToResist]

At the end of Season 3, Davos freed Gendry, shoved him into a rowboat and gave him directions to King's Landing.  He couldn't swim, so yeah... could be fish food now. 

 

Thanks, Drogo. Heh. How's the afterlife? ;)

[Calamity Jane]

With all the OTHER warfare going on, I didn't expect a fullblown religious war was coming, but it sure seems that way...the Sparrow is trying to put the Seven on top, while Stannis and company are for the Lord of Light, while the Old Gods are in play for Bran, and Dany is dealing with the Sons of the Harpy (or whatever they are, that worship the winged god that Dany threw down)....

 

So...does the Night's Watch now send a raven to Oldtown to ask for a new Maester?

 

And...I don't know about you, but the first thing I want to do after sustaining a brutal beating is have sex. NOT.

I was wondering about a new Maester for Castle Black, too.  How does that work?  

[RadiantAerynSun]

I kind of felt that Sansa reminded Ramsey of his bastardness to somehow get him on her side. Or that she'd plot with him to kill the kid. Sort of how Margary was with Joffrey.

 

I know right... Sansa is playing this all wrong, so disappointed. She has been doing more of a Cersei (being snarky) rather than a Margaery (go along to get along). She should have voiced concern about the future of their family and title and suggested Ramsay ought to come up with a plan re: Walda's baby "just in case". Sure, that's terrible, but odds are Ramsay will come to the same conclusion himself eventually, might as well use it to your advantage to win him over so you can possibly manipulate him.  She also might try to trick Theon into betraying Ramsay and then turn him in herself... but no, same old same old from Sansa. Come on girl!

 

 

 

IMO, Stannis being a good dad is going to be his end.  I don't think he is going to let Melissandre sacrifice the child and as much I don't care for her, Mel tends to mostly be  right.

 

I sure hope this doesn't lead to Shireen being burned. :( On the one hand, I think if he doesn't listen to Melisandre, he will probably fail, and she will once again blame it on him not listening to her (which probably puts Shireen at even more risk in the future). If he fails, then probably no big rescue of Sansa, etc. If he does burn her he will probably win - but at what cost?!  IMO he ought to try burning Melisandre to see if prophets of the Lord of Light have even more power than kings' blood...

[Chris24601]

The majority of NW are redshirts and require little character development. I am planning to cheer if any White Walkers reach Castle Black this year and kill Ser Alliser.

It's somewhat telling that the White Walkers are actually among the most rootable characters in the series. I mean, other than walking dead attacking people north of the Wall (arguably their territory) about the worst we've ever seen a White Walker proper do is take a child that would otherwise be left to die and turn it into one of their own (basically adopting it into their family). Compared to the Boltons, Walder Frey, the majority of the Nights Watch and High Priestess Burn Everyone to Death they're practically saints too good for this wretched world.

 

There's a part of me that literally expects some sort of last season switcheroo where we learn that the Walkers are actually the good guys and the Wall was built by Bran Stark to keep them safe from all the wicked people south of the wall (which is why its an ICE wall and not some wall of fire that would actually hurt the Walkers in some way) and the Wardens of the North were supposed to be keeping those depraved southerners OUT rather than siding with them to keep those north of the Wall in.

[RadiantAerynSun]

 

Poor Oberon...these Sand Snakes are his legacy? Obie deserved better. They are tedious beyond words...and though Bronn is giving it his best shot, Jaime seems wan, his scene with Myrcella was flat. Zero chemistry there.

 

I thought the lack of chemistry was deliberate. This is his daughter, but she treats him like just some distant uncle she hasn't seen in years (which is closer to the truth). He has no relationship with her, really.

 

 

I'd have more respect for them if they showed it rather than winking at it, since the fan focus is now not on Ramsay but instead on Theon "betraying" her and how she needs to get revenge. It's no longer about what Ramsay does to her, but about one abuse victim needing to make sure another abuse victim pays.

 

Hmm I thought it more made clear that Ramsay is the evildoer since he had the woman flayed, and Theon is a victim even more helpless than she is, rather than a potential savior.

 

 

 

Or will FrankenMountain end up smashing in there like the Kool Aid Man? This would also be quite acceptable.

 

Ohh yeah I keep forgetting about that whole thing. But maybe nothing will ever come of it again - like, uh, what happened to theos eWarlocks that were after Dany in S3E1?

 

 

I was *waiting* for the Sparrows to remember Lancel's confessions.  He'd 'unburdened' himself when he'd joined, thus freeing him (paraphrasing big time).  I am wondering if the High Sparrow knew this all along and just used Cersi's visit to maneuver his way into authority and the castle.

 

I think it is likely he planned it from their first meeting (if not before). He seems crafty like that. The only thing I regret about Cersei's imprisonment is that I saw it coming several episodes ago. It would have been more delicious if we hadn't known for sure that the Sparrows had dirt on her, but they put that out there right in episode 1 when she runs into Lancel. I sort of wish they'd saved the Lancel reveal until later, so we would have been shocked that they had someone on the inside with dirt on her...  so it wasn't so obvious that she was digging her own grave. It also made her seem incredibly, incredibly stupid, and I know she's not supposed to be the brightest bulb, but I don't see even Cersei being stupid enough to get in bed with those people after Lancel basically threatened her with what he knew.

[Triskan]

I just noticed these posts referring to Walda as "fat Walda." Has this always been a thing? Because it is not okay. I have not seen anyone referring to Sam as "fat Sam." People cannot complain about misogyny on the show and then in turn practice or tolerate it here. There is no difference between Ramsay mocking Walda's weight and referring to the character by her weight on this forum.

 

That's her book nickname. The one her entire family (the Freys) always given her... and within the fan community, it is given to her with a lot of sympathy. She's one of the most beloved minor characters.