S05.E06: Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken

[enlightenedbum]

 

I know that Sansa is vastly considered as an "end-game character"...maybe she isn't and bound to stay a victim or a pawn. Don't get me wrong, I'd like to see an empowered Sansa take Winterfell with the Vale armies behind her, but "If you think this has a happy ending, you haven't been paying attention".

I think this is mostly because someone has to kill Littlefinger.  She seems most likely.

[Oscirus]

I now wish that Tyrion wouldn't have been so damn noble because I know how show-Tyrion treats women, and Sansa's first experience wouldn't have been so traumatic -while still horrible as I said above.

 

That would've been worse. It still would have been a rape. And this would've been her second time being raped by a person that was a family member of the person responsible for the death of her family.

[Insomnia]

I call bullshit on Littlefinger not having a clue what Ramsey is like. Their sigil that they chose to present to the world is a flayed man. Sure, this is a world where people lob off other people's heads and stick them on spikes, but no one else chose a beheaded man on a pike as a sigil. You have animals, and flowers, and fish, and a flayed man. That stands out. There were flayed people when they arrived at Winterfell on display. Do you really need to know about Ramsey's hunts at this point to know you are dealing with a family of sick fucks? Even if he doesn't know anything about the son, he knows something about the father. It's not like they hire people to flay for them, and then put it on their banners.

 

"I haven't heard anything about him really, but he removes all the skin off a person while they are still alive? I bet once you get to know him he's very cuddlesome. I'm sure the people he's flayed were very bad people and they deserved. I'm sure he completely regrets having to do it as well."

 

Please. Anyone who knows what the banner of House Bolton is knows what kind of people they are. Even if you use Ramsey as being recently legitimized as an excuse, this show has gone out of it's way to point out family traits. Flaying is the Bolton thing.

[enlightenedbum]

Remember, show Littlefinger is basically a clueless moron until he has to be smart for the plot to function.

[jeansheridan]

I hate what happened to Sansa but...She is mentally tough. I see her rising. Fighting back not physically like Arya but through plotting. She won't crumble.

Just like Arya could take a whipping and not crumble. And of course she cares for the Hound! He protected her during the worst moment of her life. And gave her her mojo back.

The Dorne sequences sucked. It feels like another show.

Yea! to Tyrions' s quick brain! Loved that whole sequence.

[Lady S.]

That would've been worse. It still would have been a rape. And this would've been her second time being raped by a person that was a family member of the person responsible for the death of her family.

Nah, couldn't have both. If Tyrion had raped her, LF wouldn't be able to claim her to be "no man's wife" to sell her to the Boltons, Tyrion/Sansa's non-consummation is what opened the door for this contrived shitstorm.

[jeansheridan]

No, it's not dramatically better.  It sacrifices all Sansa's character development in favour of putting her in exactly the same role she occupied before, only worse.  She's in literally the same place she was in season 2.

I think Sansa is much tougher now. She saw her Aunt Lysa die. She tolerates Littlefinger. There was no way for her to charm Ramsey. He is a beast she must survive. Much like Dany she is a hunted woman trying to survive via a marriage. Unlike Dany she married a horrible person. I hate the rape but it was inevitable when Sansa chose to marry him.

[Oscirus]

Nah, couldn't have both. If Tyrion had raped her, LF wouldn't be able to claim her to be "no man's wife" to sell her to the Boltons, Tyrion/Sansa's non-consummation is what opened the door for this contrived shitstorm

 

I doubt it would've mattered. The only people in winterfell that would've known about her lack of virginity would've been the boltons and sansa and I doubt the Boltons would've told anybody.

 

 

Onto stranger questions. How much does a dwarf's cock sell for?  Also this is the second time  we've heard about a dwarf's cock bringing luck. I'm sensing a pattern here.

[Lady S.]

No, but crazy Batman-voice thought her virginity mattered enough to offer to let Roose check for himself, if he's dumb enough to think Roose Bolton produced a non-psycho son, maybe he's dumb enough to think it really matters whether the perfectly normal son has a virginal bride. 

[Ariah]

There goes my hope for Sansa to be a virgin queen of the North... (And I really don't know and dread what GRRM will do to her in the books now)

 

What bothered me most in this whole concept was the fact that Sansa's suffering was all about Theon. Ramsay did what he did to punish Theon, not Sansa. Sansa was just a collateral, an instrument. Even in her suffering she's less significant. When Theon cam to Sansa to take her to the ceremony, he asked her to take his hand - or Ramsay will punish him.

She refused, and Ramsay did punish him.

By punishing Sansa.

 

Would the night play out differently had Sansa take Theon's hand?

Maybe.

Ramsay would have probably found something different to punish Theon for.

 

I don't know why the writers think rape makes good story, I guess all writers are a bit sadistic inside and they want their characters to suffer. To endure torment and become stronger in the process. Still, rape is a cheap trick.

 

What to say about the rest of the episode?

- the visuals of Arya's story are stunning.

- Tyrion and Jorah have potential.

- I'm going to pretend Jamie is in Riverlands and not Dorne. Better - I'm going to reread these chapters in the book.

[ElizaD]

Show Sansa chose to marry Ramsay the way Book Sansa chose to marry Tyrion: she wasn't told about the marriage until it was too late to escape. The only choice was between being dragged to the altar or walking with her head held high.

 

It's been a month since the spoilers/interviews made it clear this was happening, and it's still infuriating that the thing the showrunners loved most about the North in ADWD was Jeyne's rape. They were prepared to trash logic and character development just to have that rape and turn Sansa into a joke to viewers who see her repeating the same storyline, with the difference that the sexual violence escalates as the actress ages out of childhood.

 

And this change becomes even worse when it's compared to their treatment of Tyrion. All the excuses about why rape is realistic and logical become irrelevant when it involves a character the showrunners actually care about: then it's removed. Tyrion is scrubbed clean of all unfortunate implications and instead held up as a shining standard of chivalry, because him raping an abused sex slave when he's depressed would be too realistic and we can't have a rape scene that's faithful to the book when it would make Tyrion look bad. Sansa, on the other hand, is given the role of a minor character who only existed to give Theon an opportunity to rescue the damsel and to provide the brand new information that Ramsay is a sadist who enjoys sexual torture, which we could never have guessed from his previous deeds. The showrunners removed rape from a male character's storyline and added it to a female character. Based on the total irrelevance of the Jaime/Cersei scene, I have zero reason to expect the rape to have any reason for existing beyond the courting of controversy by means of a disposable female character whose own storyline matters less than the question of which male character's storyline she can now be used to prop up (chivalrous Tyrion/poor Theon/wicked Ramsay). Show Sansa will be Jeyne Poole, with the awesome exception that she'll talk to/signal her rescuers.

 

It's just an absolute mess. In the books Tyrion is a rapist and Sansa is not raped, yet the showrunners decided to create a situation where Tyrion becomes a saintly gentleman who would never abuse a woman and Sansa is raped to enable the "see how lucky she was with Tyrion!" comparisons. So Sansa's first marriage becomes about what a gentleman Tyrion is and her second becomes about how horrible her rape is for Theon, who must now overcome his fear to rescue her. How awful it is that Tyrion's child bride doesn't want him and he has to endure her unhappiness over her family's murders! How awful it is that Theon must watch Sansa's rape! And whether a female character is raped or not is just a minor detail that can be changed on a whim.

 

When the showrunners said in an interview that they didn't think Tywin was a villain or a sadist, I thought that was a dodgy interpretation of a character who ordered a girl gang-raped. Now it's looking sadly indicative of their general use of rape as a source of cheap shocks that don't really matter in the long term.

 

I have to take back my criticism of Downton Abbey's rape storyline and whether it focused too much on the husband's reaction. Compared to this, it's a high point of realism and characterization. Downton had Anna dealing with her trauma, it didn't try to pretend that her being raped in what had been a safe, happy workplace could be shrugged off, she received emotional and practical support from Mrs. Hughes, the show didn't follow the rapist on his visits to other houses for extra shocks, and Mr. Bates didn't blame Anna for causing what had happened through her choices. On GOT, Anna's decision to hide the rape would have been presented as bullshit "empowered woman makes a choice" stuff, the way they're trying to spin Sansa's rape, and GOT Anna would have actually succeeded at keeping Mr. Bates from finding out because rape changes nothing significant about a female character's development or behavior.

Another mess: Dorne. It's utterly B-movie. Seeing the Sand Snakes makes me love Pedro Pascal's performance all the more: he had better source material, but he also made it work onscreen. The Sand Snakes just feel like non-actor extras and even Indira Varma has fallen victim to Dorne's suckiness.

 

At least previous episodes had the improvement of the Wall storyline to feel upbeat about.

[Danny Franks]

Yeah, predictable as fuck. These writers see sex as a weapon, one that can be employed either to dominate a woman or manipulate a man. But also, conveniently, as a way to titillate the audience (handy, that. Boobs are boobs, whether the woman wants you to see them or not).

 

Sansa's story arc: seasons 1 to 3 - abused and threatened with rape. Season 4 - escapes. Season 5 - abused and raped. Fantastic. Next time some vapid article claims that Game of Thrones is about strong women, they need to actually look at the show more than counting the number of times Dany yells at someone or Cersei smirks.

 

Littlefinger, who I never liked, simply does things now because the plot needs them to happen. He's not even a character, just an agent of narrative direction.

 

Dorne has been rendered an utterly pointless sideshow, and that was one of my few remaining interests in both the books and the show.

 

Jon's storyline has lost nearly everything relevant beyond his love of wildlings, and we already know how it's going to play out. He gets stabbed, doesn't die, then probably doesn't do much of anything interesting.

 

So the rape was their Big Shock of season 5, was it? Like the Red Wedding was of season 3, the Purple Wedding and Oberyn's death were of season 4? That's all this show is, now. A procession from one Shocking Event to the next, with little of import happening in between. Sad.

[Pete Martell]

What bothered me most in this whole concept was the fact that Sansa's suffering was all about Theon. Ramsay did what he did to punish Theon, not Sansa. Sansa was just a collateral, an instrument. Even in her suffering she's less significant. When Theon cam to Sansa to take her to the ceremony, he asked her to take his hand - or Ramsay will punish him.

 

Ramsay raped Sansa because he is a psychopath who has spent years torturing, murdering, and raping other women. He would have raped her because she wore gray instead of black one day, or because there was a cloud in the sky. 

 

If this was about Theon, he wouldn't have been barely above extra status in most of the episodes this season. 

 

They likely cut to Theon because they didn't want us to actually see her get raped, and because they can minimize Theon's story by tying it to the larger suffering-Starks narrative instead of having it on its own terms the way it was in the books. 

 

I'd be shocked if anything this season is about Theon on his own terms. His reactions will likely play into Sansa's story, and Sansa again being victimized by the new Joffrey. 

Edited May 18, 2015 by Pete Martell

[areca]

"This is a hardened woman making a choice and she sees this as the way to get back her homeland." What? if that's what they were going wow did they whiff hard.

I got that completely.  I think she knew exactly how things were going to go down, and that she believed Myranda. I don't think the she thought it was quite as sick as it was though, but Sophie did a fantastic job of conveying knowing IMHO.  Remember, Sansa did this because she intends to kill them all.

 

Show Sansa chose to marry Ramsay the way Book Sansa chose to marry Tyrion: she wasn't told about the marriage until it was too late to escape. The only choice was between being dragged to the altar or walking with her head held high.

She was told on the road to Winterfell, and Littlefinger would have turned around if she'd chosen not to marry at that point.  He'd have found some other way to get her to the altar, but she certainly didn't learn about this when it was too late...

Edited May 18, 2015 by areca

[The Mighty Peanut]

I wish Sansa hadn't been raped because I like her and want to protect her, but IMO it makes sense in the context of the show. It goes with what Cersei said to Oberyn about girls never being safe (paraphrased) and the use of sexual violence as a means of control and torture -- naturally, Ramsey would be all about that. It's not like this one time he's going to be gentle, not when he has the opportunity to rape a long-suffering virgin bride in her own home. If he wasn't interested in sex he'd be Joffrey with the crossbow all over again.

I also think Sansa had to be totally broken before being rebuilt as the new, hardened Sansa. It is a bit cheap that her family being murdered, Joffrey, Lysa, etc. weren't enough to do that and that she had to lose her innocence through sex, but I get it.

Plus this way Sansa has to recover after a personal violation, and Theon has to look outside of his own pain, so there's a lot of potential for internal and external growth.

Edited May 18, 2015 by The Mighty Peanut

[BlackberryJam]

With The Winds of Winter nowhere in sight, I have absolutely no idea where the final two seasons are headed.

I know! Isn't it thrilling?

[Haleth]

I can understand why people are upset about how the scene played out, but did they really expect anything else?  It was basically the same as in the book except for the bride.  Jeyne was even more sheltered and innocent than Sansa and she shut down after being raped.  I think (hope!) the show writers are going to have Sansa use her anger to strike back at the Boltons, Manderly style.  Yes, after last night's episode she is in the same place she was in season 2, how she adjusts and reacts to her situation will tell us if she's graduated from LF's School of Deception and Manipulation or not.

 

Everything about the Dorne scene was dreadful, the writing, the acting, the direction.  Everything.

The sand snake fight was ludicrous.  I have a hard enough time telling them apart when they're standing next to each other.  Whirling around with scarves on their faces I was reduced to "the one with a spear, the one with knives, the one with a whip" but no idea which was which, nor any real interest in figuring it out.

 

Were they stunt doubles?  (If so, not very good ones.  D&D need to get their money back.)

 

Best thing?  Olenna calling Cercei a famous tart.  HA!

Edited May 18, 2015 by Haleth

[IDFfm0870]

Sorry, wrong thread

Edited May 18, 2015 by IDFfm0870

[franopy]

That was incredibly hard to watch and I wish they had not gone there. However, I did get the feeling throughout that Sansa did know what she was getting into. After putting Myranda in her place in the bath, I took her expression as one of steeling herself for what was to come. That doesn't mean that she did not suffer when the rape happened and it probably was then that she realised just what she would have to endure while going through with LF's (not so) grand scheme. After all, she seemed to realise just how much of a sick fuck Ramsay is during the dinner scene from hell and what Myranda told her only deepened the abyss she would have to look into. Now do I think that rape is a great tool to further female character growth? Absolutely not, but I continue to feel that this is a different Sansa who chooses to endure her victimisation for the time being rather than the wide-eyed and constantly shell-shocked girl we saw in the King's Landing days. Still, what a terrible, terrible scene.

 

I think what added to the general sense of despair was that, since they left out Lord Manderly's (spelling?) revenge, there was not a single glimmer of hope for the Freys and Boltons to pay for what they have done, which makes everything feel even more dire to me. No real sign of the Great Northern Conspiracy on the show and I hate that - still hoping for significant development in that direction from here on, ideally with real agency on Sansa's part (lighting a candle in the tower doesn't count).

 

Also, I partly revise my previous verdict on LF, what a glaring lack of due diligence, I really thought he had done his homework on the former Bolton bastard. Way to be blindsided, master schemer.

Edited May 18, 2015 by franopy

[Advance35]

If Sansa had a family willing to kill Joffrey or Ramsey, then she wouldn't be a "victim" either. I don't think a single bit of character development has been relinquished here.

 

Very well said. Your entire post.  Bad things happening doesn't to a person does NOT diminish that persons strength or perseverance.   It reflects on the perpetrator not the Sansa.

 

She chose to go with LF to Winterfell.  She knew she was likely going to have to marry Ramsay and at the time she thought the gamble was worth it.   She's experienced in many ways but inexperienced in quite a few others.

 

And I reiterate that Sansa could have the exat same wedding night in THE BOOK only with Harry instead of Ramsay and their won't be Reek in the chambers but everything else could concievabley be word for word.   It's amazing how many seem to think they KNOW where Sansa's storyline is going and all the beats that will get her character to it's end destination.    I think there will be MUCH more horror ahead for the character in the books.   What some think hinders the characters development based on speculation about the characters future COULD be in the over all plan the creator has for the character.   But than again as much as I enjoy the Sansa' character, I am glad she nore anyone else on this show is a sacred cow.

 

I got that completely.  I think she knew exactly how things were going to go down, and that she believed Myranda. I don't think the she thought it was quite as sick as it was though, but Sophie did a fantastic job of conveying knowing IMHO.  Remember, Sansa did this because she intends to kill them all.

 

ST was REALLY good in all her scenes this episode.   And I too thought she took Myranda's word's to heart.  She was under NO illusions that Ramsay was anything approaching a Prince Charming.   She is out for survival and revenge.   She has managed to cling to one throughout this story (unlike Ned, Robb, Catelyn, Talisa, Tywin, Joffrey and others) and she is working to find a way to grasp the other.

[Pete Martell]

I can understand why people are upset about how the scene played out, but did they really expect anything else?  

 

I don't know if it was much of a surprise; it just feels utterly pointless and repetitive, as much of her story has to me this season.

[Happy Harpy]

I. Glenn, A.Allen and M.Williams were fabulous in this episode. 

 

My poor Jorah. His life sucks so much, he could be a Stark girl.

I like the evolution of his relationship with Tyrion and I love how they worked together for the first time.

Tyrion makes the best use of talking, until he talks too much. Jorah told you so! And we're back to Tyrion getting the best line of the episode.

 

Jaqen: "You're ready to become someone else".

Oliver Queen voiceover: "You're ready to become something else". 

 

I actually like the Dorne storyline, and I didn't think I would. I love what I saw of Areo and Doran, and Jaime and Bronn make everything better. Even though they're stupid, Trystane and Myrcella are sweet and the comedy moment when he's knocked out and she's wailing helplessly made me laugh. I can't wait for the Fire and Blood reveal and I can see Jaime finding its place in Doran's scheme.

Cersei's face when she talked about Jaime made me believe the speculations that she sent the box to herself and intends for him to die. I wonder if a talk between Doran and Jaime could reveal this, and Doran could use it in order to turn Jaime against Cersei. If so, I expect Jaime to make it and get back to his book storyline, at whatever point will be significant for his/the general endgame.

 

While explaining to Cersei, onctuously, the strategy to use with the Boltons and Stannis, Littlefinger is using the exact same strategy with her and the Tyrells. Imo, he talked about Sansa in order to cover his ass, if word was to spread that he was seen with her (consequence of being recognized by Podrick and Brienne). I think it's already part of his next move. For me, he sees earlier and farther than anyone when it comes to KL and politics (although he doesn't have Varys little birds re:Ramsay) so he probably sees that Cersei has doomed herself with the Faith. He pretends to give her Sansa until Cersei is gotten rid of. Imo, Olenna will make him help her to take Cersei down, blackmailing him with Joffrey's murder...or think she does, whereas it's part of his plan. With the Faith, Cersei endangered his lucrative activities so she has to be on his shit list. He was wayyy too subdued with her. Moreover, I'm certain he wants to climb the ladder until the top and doesn't want the church to threaten or compete with his authority once he's there.

With both heirs in jail. House Tyrell is now in pole position for being wiped out, even before House Baratheon. 

 

Sansa again: I'm not sure, after the backlash last year and the Sept controversy being what many, many people seem to retain about S4, that D&D would have made such a controversial move on a Stark of all characters if it didn't have any base whatsoever in the books; especially since there are imo even more Stark lovers among non-book readers, casual viewers and Unsullied. Wasn't there supposed to be a controversial Sansa chapter in TWoW? 

 

I don't believe that rape builds a character, or that it will make Sansa stronger. Bullshit. I think it's her "crucible", something horrible she has to go through on the way to survival/her revenge. For me, the scene with Myranda was supposed to show that Sansa's strong already, that she didn't lose her determination. But it's one thing to know that you're going to have to go through something horrible, and actually going through it. 

It made me fear more for every character, because Sansa was so oftened threatened with rape and more (S2 riot) that it created a false sense of security. "Oh, they teased it so much that they won't do it/she didn't escape Joffrey to have to endure Ramsay". I didn't think she could charm and manipulate Ramsay the way Melisandre or Margaery do with men, each in their way, but I kept hope that she'd manage to stall long enough for the wedding not to happen. 

Now, please make that she isn't pregnant. Since the original plan was for her to have Joffrey's baby...I hope more than ever than that particular direction wasn't kept in the definite version. 

[jeansheridan]

Jumping to another aspect, I like the change of Myrcella actually falling in love with what appeared to be an okay prospect. Puppy love sure but still sweet. And that Jaime stupidly didn't have a plan for getting her out. I am hoping for some sweet talking from him next week. Book Jaime is an okay diplomat post hand chop. Let's see some of that please.

I love that Myrcella is a teen and won't just obey. I wish she seemed brighter. Even Miranda makes more of an impression. The Sand Snakes are so dreadful.

The Dorne me sequences have been so off. It is like another show. That farce in the Gardens. Just awful choreography. And I love how Bronn &Jaime just walk in and punch the heir to the throne!

There has been some massive lazy action writing this season. Last week I forgave that Jorah somehow swam with an unconscious Tyrion across a bay. But now we see Jaime and Bronn winging a kidnapping? Gah.

[Sarah D. Bunting]

'The Dwarf Lives Until We Find A Cock Merchant': last night's episode Particles, by Nick Rheinwald-Jones.

[Hanahope]

With The Winds of Winter nowhere in sight, I have absolutely no idea where the final two seasons are headed.

 

I know! Isn't it thrilling?

 

Guess we'll all be unsullied in another year.

[Dobian]

The boy king better grow a pair quick or his queen is toast.

[WatchrTina]

Just weighing in to say that Loras is an idiot.  His former squire says "He has a birthmark" and he loses his mind and attacks him?  The appropriate response was "Yes, I do, which my squire has seen many times when he fetched water for my bath."  Really, it was all too stupid. Loras is an idiot.

[mac123x]

When Jaquen said something like "you're ready to become someone else," it made me wonder if they're skipping her adventures as Cat of the Canals and Beth the Blind Girl and getting right to her first asassination mission.  Like next week she'll stalk and kill the insurance underwriter guy, and maybe run into someone else who happens to be visiting Braavos and on her death list...

[Maximum Taco]

Just weighing in to say that Loras is an idiot.  His former squire says "He has a birthmark" and he loses his mind and attacks him?  The appropriate response was "Yes, I do, which my squire has seen many times when he fetched water for my bath."  Really, it was all too stupid. Loras is an idiot.

 

Yeah I was thinking the same thing only my excuse was

 

"He's my squire, and has dressed me for battle on several occaisions, I'm sure he's had the opportunity to see my birthmark many times. Although I am shocked and appalled that he would pay that much attention!"

 

They seem to be going out of their way now to make Loras an idiot. I have always contended he's never been portrayed as particularily sharp, but this was just mind numbingly stupid.

Edited May 18, 2015 by Maximum Taco

[Pete Martell]

Just weighing in to say that Loras is an idiot.  His former squire says "He has a birthmark" and he loses his mind and attacks him?  The appropriate response was "Yes, I do, which my squire has seen many times when he fetched water for my bath."  Really, it was all too stupid. Loras is an idiot.

 

This is the same dumbass who got back into bed with a man who sold him and his family out in season 3.

 

I know that you don't "need" a sympathetic character to be invested in a story, but Margaery, Loras, and Olenna are all so dumb and so hollow - why am I supposed to care about any of them at this point? I realize we're supposed to be rooting for Cersei's downfall, but shouldn't I have a reason to care about them too? 

[SFoster21]

Sansa, Sansa, sad fucking shit. And next week is dark right? Memorial Day? So, way to go, guys...

But Tyrion owns the night! "Guess again!"

[proserpina65]

They could have Ramsey gleefully telling Theon his plans before he acts and Theon warning Sansa.

 

Except nothing we've yet seen of 'Reek' has suggested that he would have taken that step.

 

Look, I hate that Sansa has been substituted for Fake Arya on the show, but once she was, there was no way the storyline was going to go any other way.  And it was one hell of a lot worse in the book.

[Haleth]

^ And it will have a better payoff with Sansa than Jeyne.  I am hoping beyond hope that Sansa more or less saves herself, or at least actively participates in her rescue with Theon or Brienne or Stannis, whoever arrives first.  Jeyne was too beaten to do anything for herself.

[SeanC]

I think Sansa is much tougher now. She saw her Aunt Lysa die. She tolerates Littlefinger. There was no way for her to charm Ramsey. He is a beast she must survive. Much like Dany she is a hunted woman trying to survive via a marriage. Unlike Dany she married a horrible person. I hate the rape but it was inevitable when Sansa chose to marry him.

No, it was not inevitable.  This story could have easily been written to avoid the wedding.  And Ramsay being "a beast she must survive" is different from her past story how, precisely?  What you're basically saying is that she's just become a tougher victim.

[proserpina65]

Why are there no other Northern lords at the wedding?  Why didn't they have a wedding feast?

 

I think the lack of other Northern lords was to emphasize how isolated the Boltons are from the rest of the North.

[BlackberryJam]

There is an episode next week. They are not skipping a week for Memorial Day.

 

All of the Winterfell scenes have been designed to show that the Bolton's do not have the support of the Northern lords. The wedding was just another part of that.

[cambridgeguy]

Somewhere Oberyn is shaking his head.  Obara couldn't take out a one handed man even though she had superior range and speed? 

 

That being said, I do look forward to Doran reading them all the riot act.  Dorne could probably fight the Lannisters and Tyrells to a stalemate but nothing more.  That's not good enough for the revenge minded.

[nksarmi]

You know, because Ramsey clearly has the power of life and death over Sansa, I believe it would be impossible for her to truly consent to sex with him.  But in essence, without her resistance, it's hard for me to say Ramsey in his f-ed up mind would view this as rape.  In his head, I'm sure he just did his husbandly duty and bedded his wife.  That fact that it was unpleasant for her only proves her virginity.

 

If you listen to Roose talk about Ramsey's mother and how she fought him, that is likely what Ramsey believes rape would be like and I'm certain he is not opposed to it.  But we didn't see that type of rape.  What we saw was a woman who felt she had no option but to consent and so she silently/willingly went along with what Ramsey did.  It's funny because to me - even though Sansa never once said no or resisted - this felt like more of a rape than the sept scene between Jamie and Cersei.  I don't know if it's because I know that scene played differently in the books, because the two had been lovers for decades, or because I believe Cersei is such a liar that it would be just like her to say one thing while her body does another. 

 

But while I never got the feeling that Jamie raped Cersei - I do understand why people believe Sansa was raped here even though she didn't resist or say no.  However, I don't believe the true villain of this scene is the sick bastard Ramsey, but Littlefinger.  I never once believed that he wouldn't use anyone - even Sansa - for his own gain and he did when he arranged her marriage here.  Even if Ramsey wasn't a crazy psycho, he had to know that something very similar to this scene would play out for Sansa.  Yet he used her a chess piece all the same. 

 

The needless cruelty of the moment was having Theon watch.  I suspect Sansa was prepared for it to be unpleasant and hurt - she wasn't prepared for humiliation. I hope if this did anything, it woke her up to the fact that she cannot trust LF and she cannot play his game. If she wants to take back her home, she must enlist the help of the North and figure out how to help Stannis.  Then she needs to put LF in the ground.  Frankly, I hope Theon lives just long enough to tell Sansa that her brothers lives and then he is put out of his misery and dies.  I hope Jon has already told Stannis how to break into Winterfell and they easily defeat the Boltons while Brie and Pod keep Sansa safe.  Then I hope we see a ounce of wisdom from Sansa and that she asks Brie to put aside her hate for Stannis and to go secretly find her brother and return him to Winterfell while bending the knee to Stannis and telling her knew king of all of LF's scheming. 

 

If Sansa brings LF down, I will forgive her for every irritating moment she has been on my screen until now.  Also, I hope they don't have her get pregnant from this.

 

And Cersei's downfall can't come soon enough for me.

[Happy Harpy]

You know, because Ramsey clearly has the power of life and death over Sansa, I believe it would be impossible for her to truly consent to sex with him.  But in essence, without her resistance, it's hard for me to say Ramsey in his f-ed up mind would view this as rape.  In his head, I'm sure he just did his husbandly duty and bedded his wife.  That fact that it was unpleasant for her only proves her virginity.

I think that on the opposite, in his fucked-up mind, Ramsay is unable to envision any kind of sexual intercourse that isn't what we call nowadays "rape". Because he doesn't care about consent, he cares only imo about domination and humiliation, which is the point of a rape. 

Imo, he made the whole thing more brutal and humiliating when Sansa began to take off her clothes instead of pleading/struggling/crying, because her silent acceptance of her fate/doom didn't satisfy his sadistic urges. 

 

Definitely, Sansa wasn't better with the devil she knew, aka Littlefinger. I thought his demise was close, now I don't know. He could be a casualty of the Olenna/Cersei war. But somehow I think that Sansa won't be the one to take him down. I could see another character offing him and unknowingly avenge her, like Jon did for Ned by beheading Janos Slynt.

[jeansheridan]

 

No, it was not inevitable.  This story could have easily been written to avoid the wedding.  And Ramsay being "a beast she must survive" is different from her past story how, precisely?  What you're basically saying is that she's just become a tougher victim.

While it's true Stannis could have arrived just in time to save the day and stop the wedding, the moment the show went through with the wedding, her wedding night horror was inevitable.  Do I see Sansa as a victim in general?  Not sure.  I see her as a survivor and I admire her resilience.  I admit it has been frustrating watching her sit alone in her room this season instead of chatting up the castle.  That was basically Dany's technique.  She talked to the tribe and figured them out.  Of course she had Jorah with her to help.  We've seen a few people in the castle whisper to Sansa so there's some form of help there we never see her seek out. 

 

I'm not quite sure whom Sansa is using as a role model actually.  Is she trying to borrow Cersei's game face with her scene with Miranda?   Is she borrowing some of Shae's attitude?  Those are the two women she was around the most. 

 

There is a lot of rape on this show, but the show also has three men who have been dismembered as recurring characters.  Physical violence is part of this world.  It's one of the reasons why I like Prince Doran so much.  He isn't a man of action and yet as far as I can tell, his region has been fairly peaceful other than minor skirmishes.  Might be luck on his part or good management.  I think a bit of both. 

 

Does anyone else remember when or how Oberyon managed to become such a renowned warrior if his region was never embroiled in a war?  Because in some ways it makes the Sand Snakes are kind of crap at combat against two seasoned warriors (even a one handed man) given they only have training and no practical experience.  At least as far as we know from the books and the show.  Training is one thing, but as Brienne has shown, nothing beats in the field experience.  She is a better fighter for having faced off Jaime and The Hound. 

[Calamity Jane]

I'm still processing last night's episode.  Right up until the end, I thought it was quite good, silly water-garden battle aside (was that water dancing?)  I'm dying to know how the Cersei/Olenna showdown will pan out. I can see it going either way, although I'm definitely rooting for Mrs. Peel to kick Cersei's arse all the way to Flea Bottom. Or perhaps it will be Lancel who upsets her apple cart.  I'd hate anything to happen to Olenna, but they can bury the two grandkids for all of me. 

 

 As for deviations from the books, both actual and future, my understanding has been that Martin started out with a general plan of where the story would go and how it would end, that he shared the plan with the show runners, and that they promised to adhere to those broad outlines.  How they get there can clearly diverge quite a bit, but there should not be any huge deviations from the overall arc as described by the author. Hopefully this is so.

 

I have come to prefer the show to the books because it's hard to shake the feeling that Martin has lost the discipline and/or the fire in the belly needed to produce those massive tomes of plot, side-plot, sub-side-plot, etc., he needs to get through to finish the series.  To me the book plots seem like streamers that are dividing into ever more little streamers, well past the point where one would expect them to start being woven back together to bring the story to an eventual conclusion. As a hard-core reader, it's seldom indeed that I prefer a visual interpretation to the actual text of a book, but here we are.  

[Dobian]

I don't know if it was much of a surprise; it just feels utterly pointless and repetitive, as much of her story has to me this season.

 

It really comes down to whether or not Sansa actually does anything about her situation (and opportunity) and avenges her family.  If she just continues to be a victim until her eventual demise, then her story is utterly pointless.

 

Jaime and Bronn's courtyard fight with the sand snakes was like something out of Indiana Jones, lol.  It would have been a lot of fun with better fight choreography and camera work.  It was confusing to watch and I couldn't understand how these girls couldn't have easily gotten the upper hand on the men, especially with the whip girl keeping Bronn off-balance.

 

Lady Olenna should simply go to the general and plainly state that his army's money, food, and supplies are going to go up in smoke unless Margaery and Loras are released.  Force a confrontation between the army and Cersei and her fanatics.

Edited May 18, 2015 by Dobian

[Ambrosefolly]

Definitely, Sansa wasn't better with the devil she knew, aka Littlefinger. I thought his demise was close, now I don't know. He could be a casualty of the Olenna/Cersei war. But somehow I think that Sansa won't be the one to take him down. I could see another character offing him and unknowingly avenge her, like Jon did for Ned by beheading Janos Slynt.

If Littlefinger somehow manages to survive to the end of the series, and since Tyrion is currently the least stupid member of his family now that the Tywin dead,  I could see him figuring out Littlefinger was the one that framed him for Joffrey's murder.  

 

But I want Sansa to take him down. It isn't that he started this shit by having Jon Arynn murdered, knowing Robert would go to Ned as the his new Hand, it is that he managed to continuously fuck her over because he had a obsessive need to have her mother and when she died, have her. Betraying Ned, which ended up separating her from Arya, ruining her potential marriage to Loras (yes he is gay as the day is long, but he isn't an abusive asshat), then framing Tyrion for Joffrey's murder, thus removing her from another relatively safe union with a guy that successfully mitigated a lot of Joffrey's cruelty. As terrible as it was being held prisoner at the Red Keep, Tyrion is at his core a good person that doesn't like seeing the helpless hurt, Margarey was fond of her (and I truly believe that) and even the Hound protected her when he was there. Now she has no back up she can truly trust. Brienne is going to do a lot to prove she isn't an agent of the devil aka the Lannisters.

Edited May 18, 2015 by Ambrosefolly

[CherryMalotte]

I have to vote Iain Glen the best actor of this episode.  His face when Tyrion stumbles into telling him that his father was dead, murdered by his own men, is a great meld of emotions, all held in check.  Alfie Allen is a close second.

 

There is some disappointment with Dorne.  I like Doran, I enjoy the set for the Water Gardens, I even enjoy the love that Trystane and Myrcella seem to have for one another.  I am missing Arianne, I wish there was some way they could have had her in the plot, as well, and I think it would have enhanced the story.  I'd still like to see the Sand Snakes loosed upon Westeros - perhaps that will happen.     

Edited May 18, 2015 by CherryMalotte

[Avaleigh]

If Sansa had a family willing to kill Joffrey or Ramsey, then she wouldn't be a "victim" either. I don't think a single bit of character development has been relinquished here.

I feel the same. I disagree that her character growth is suddenly nonexistent because she's been raped. Sansa has definitely grown as a character and I don't even think that she's in the same position that she was in during the second season. I don't feel like I have any reason to think that Sansa won't get her revenge or that she'll be nothing more than a prop so that the redemption story of Theon can be told.

 

Some people think that the camera focused on Theon so that it could be all about Theon's man pain and that this totally minimizes Sansa's horror. Then you have the demented little assholes who are complaining loudly that they didn't get to see anything. I can see how it feels like a no win situation to D&D *if* they chose to incorporate this because of what happens between Harry and Sansa in TWoW. I thought Harry came across like a jerk in that sample chapter so it isn't hard at all for me to believe that he'd be the opposite of kind to the bastard daughter of Littlefinger during the consummation.

 

I thought it was the better choice for them to not show it.

 

Very well said. Your entire post.  Bad things happening doesn't to a person does NOT diminish that persons strength or perseverance.   It reflects on the perpetrator not the Sansa.

 

She chose to go with LF to Winterfell.  She knew she was likely going to have to marry Ramsay and at the time she thought the gamble was worth it.   She's experienced in many ways but inexperienced in quite a few others.

 

And I reiterate that Sansa could have the exat same wedding night in THE BOOK only with Harry instead of Ramsay and their won't be Reek in the chambers but everything else could concievabley be word for word.   It's amazing how many seem to think they KNOW where Sansa's storyline is going and all the beats that will get her character to it's end destination.    I think there will be MUCH more horror ahead for the character in the books.   What some think hinders the characters development based on speculation about the characters future COULD be in the over all plan the creator has for the character.   But than again as much as I enjoy the Sansa' character, I am glad she nor anyone else on this show is a sacred cow.

I pretty much agree with all of this. I'm perplexed by this idea that Sansa shouldn't have any more bad things happen to her simply because she's been a victim in the past. For Sansa to live in the same place as the Boltons and to not have anything bad happen to her wouldn't make sense to me at all. If they kept coming up with reasons for why they didn't go through with the marriage ceremony or the consummation after that it would have felt totally contrived IMO. 

 

As for how the show will handle how Sansa is dealing with the rape, we don't yet know how much focus there will be on Sansa's pain vs. Theon's. I agree though with those who feel that the scene was all about Sansa anyway and that whatever Theon and Ramsay were feeling was secondary. 

 

I don't see the story as pointless because I think Sansa will be able to continue to develop, learn, and change, and I think this will spur her to continue to find ways where she can take control. I even think feeling empathy for Theon will ultimately be helpful to her. For me it's less about Theon being redeemed than about Sansa finding help and support in unlikely places. I'm not even sure that Theon can be redeemed anyway but I do like the idea of him doing what he can do to become a human being again and spending his remaining time trying to be of assistance to House Stark.

Edited May 18, 2015 by Avaleigh

[hammaboo]

The only part of this ep that I enjoyed was Bronn going "You fight pretty well. For a girl(woman/female whatever word he used)."  He seemed surprised and it made me chuckle. 

 

I get that they have to compress the books in order to move forward, but it really feels like the story this season has not gone anywhere - at least not what would need to be half of a book worth of movement. 

 

The non-bookwalkers that I watch with are struggling to understand why I loved the book series so much.  I understand why - there's just so much that is being missed and weird parts being focused on and/or added. 

[nksarmi]

I have never liked Sansa, but I have pitied her.  I don't think she will ever become like Ayra and take someone's life herself.  But I just want her to be the one to take down Littlefinger - I need it so bad.  I'm positive some less than honorable characters are going to survive this mess - there is no way they are going to let only "good guys" live at the end.  But I really want LF to bite it before we are done.  Amusingly, I don't actually need Cersei to die - I just need her defeated.  Littlefinger, Roose, and Ramsey I want dead.

[Dandesun]

Man...

 

I was really HOPING they weren't going to go there but, ultimately, I figured that they would. There was just no way I could legitimately convince myself that Ramsay Snow-Bolton was somehow going to be so enamored of Sansa that he was going to treat her well. And I'm just too familiar with the whole concept of the 'crying of 'Arya Stark' is more a danger than the armies of Stannis Baratheon' to think that Sansa was going to remain unscathed.

 

I'm not happy about it. Not even remotely. I actually kind of hate it but, at the same time, I get it. No one was going to give two shits for a 'fake Arya gets abused by Ramsay' story when it comes down to it... and this does up the stakes a lot.

 

Although, do count me in as one who hopes that Sansa totally kills Littlefinger.

 

They've so completely dropped the ball on the whole concept of the North taking slow and steady revenge on the Freys and the Boltons on this show but I'd still be okay with that story rearing its head in a big way now.

 

Ugh... I hate this. I knew it was coming but I hate it.

[MadMouse]

I got that completely.  I think she knew exactly how things were going to go down, and that she believed Myranda. I don't think the she thought it was quite as sick as it was though, but Sophie did a fantastic job of conveying knowing IMHO.  Remember, Sansa did this because she intends to kill them all.

 

 

She looked just as terrified as she did on her wedding night to Tyrion. There was nothing in her performance that shows she's doing this for power or revenge. If she tried to seduce Ramsay or manipulate the situation I could buy into the notion that she's learning but it didn't happen. And again how is she going to kill them all? With who? Her only hope is to sit around and wait for either Stannis or Littlefinger to rescue her. But it'll just be a replay of Blackwater with Theon taking the place of the Hound and her escaping with him. 

[BlackberryJam]

Bronn is so dead. There was poison on that blade and he is going to die a slow, painful one unless someone puts him out of his misery. Poor sweeting singing Bronn. I would love for Jaime to sing The Dornishman's Wife over Bronn's grave.

The Sand Snakes are just terrible. Ellaria had her 'Bosley goes badass' moment with her Charlie's Angels and it was dumb. These actors should be bringing it, they should be elevating the dialogue. Instead it's just like community theatre bad.

I really felt like the Dornish scenes did not belong in this episode. They would have been better served in Episode Five. The lighter tone did not serve the darkness.

Tyrion and Jorah were amazing, just amazing. Iain Glenn was fantastic and he gets the award for this episode of showing emotions without a sound. I also loved Tyrion as the voice of the audience assessing Dany. Thank you!

Cersei is a dumb fuck. She's so being set up and I think Baelish sent her the necklace in a viper mouth. It would fit with his plan to manipulate her into into authorizing the Vale people to march on Winterfell.

Cersei has also set precedent by letting the High Sparrow arrest the wedded and bedded Queen. I just want to hold up a picture of Lancel to her and say, "See this guy? Remember fucking him and having him help you with that whole regicide thing? He's a sparrow. You think he's going to protect your lameass?" Oh Cersei, so pretty. So stupid.

And I know this might be too soon for some people, but did anyone else get a giggle when Ramsay was talking about Sansa not wanting to bang a dwarf while she stood there towering over him? Bwhhwhahaha. Hilarious and what a great shot.