S05.E06: Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken

[Avaleigh]

I have to say that I appreciated Tyrion's quick thinking when they were caught by the slavers. You could totally see a thousand emotions going through him as he's trying to think his way through his growing panic. Obviously I knew that they weren't going to kill Tyrion but they still managed to make the moment intense when he cried "Wait, wait, wait!" and I thought there was a nice little callback to a conversation in season one where Robert is telling Barristan and maybe Jaime about how he killed this one nobleman and the kid shouted "Wait! Wait" before Robert cracked him to death with his hammer. 

Although, do count me in as one who hopes that Sansa totally kills Littlefinger.

I want it to happen so much. 

 

For a long time I was on the fence as to whether or not I wanted Littlefinger to be killed by Sansa or something more supernatural e.g. Lady Stoneheart, a White Walker, a dragon, etc. Like book!Tywin, Littlefinger doesn't really seem like he'd have a plan for what to do if were in a situation where he was confronted with an Other and I kind of like the idea of him freaking out in fear.

 

Now that this has happened though I want it to be Sansa. The Moon Door would be nice but I doubt they'll visit the Eyrie again. Maybe she can poison him. I wonder if she still has that necklace? (Oh hell, now this has me wondering if she couldn't poison Ramsay if she still has the stones.) 

Edited May 18, 2015 by Avaleigh

[Oscirus]

Just weighing in to say that Loras is an idiot.  His former squire says "He has a birthmark" and he loses his mind and attacks him?  The appropriate response was "Yes, I do, which my squire has seen many times when he fetched water for my bath."  Really, it was all too stupid. Loras is an idiot.

 

Dudes having his livelihood  and his sister's livelihood threatened in public. It's hard to think of a good defense under those circumstances. Hell even Tyrion who has the gift of gab couldn't do so under similar circumstances.

 

So now that Littlefinger's about to become warden of the north, his ascension to the throne should start to become clearer.

Edited May 18, 2015 by Oscirus

[OakGoblinFly]

When Jaquen said something like "you're ready to become someone else," it made me wonder if they're skipping her adventures as Cat of the Canals and Beth the Blind Girl and getting right to her first asassination mission.  Like next week she'll stalk and kill the insurance underwriter guy, and maybe run into someone else who happens to be visiting Braavos and on her death list...

 

 

I hope not - Cat of the Canals is one of my favorite chapters in the series.

[Helena Dax]

I'm  not surprised  Littlefinger didn't know about Ramsay's tendencies even if his sigil is a flayed man, as  some people have pointed out. I mean, it's also  Roose's sigil and  he's treating his wife very well,  for all we know.  LF  had all the reasons to  believe that Ramsay would treat Sansa well and respectfully, mainly  because  the Boltons should be aware that she's kind of legitimizating their presence at Winterfell. 

 

Now,  Jeyne's rape was all about Theon because she isn't an important character. She doesn't matter in the game of  thrones.  Sansa,  otoh, is a major  character, so that rape is also  about  her, of course  it is. No Northener would rally after Jeyne because she isn't really a Stark, but Sansa  is, and her choices can change the war. I like her a lot and I'm sorry she had to  go through it, but I  think she could  become more important for the plot here than in  the Vale. Especially because if her role at  the Vale had  been really important in the long run, the  showrunners wouldn't have changed it.

 

Cersei's so  dumb I'm surprised she remembers how to  breathe. Doesn't she understand that  if  the HS is willing to go after the Queen,  he can go after the Mother Queen too? Why does she think she's safe when the rumours that she's been fucking her twin brother behind the King's back are all around Westeros? It makes  zero sense.

 

Tyrion's lucky  those pirates don't know about Cersei's offer for dwarves' heads. 

[Avaleigh]

And I know this might be too soon for some people, but did anyone else get a giggle when Ramsay was talking about Sansa not wanting to bang a dwarf while she stood there towering over him? Bwhhwhahaha. Hilarious and what a great shot.

In my head I'm imagining her thinking, "No, I don't have anything against kind dwarves, only deranged hobbits."

 

Just weighing in to say that Loras is an idiot.  His former squire says "He has a birthmark" and he loses his mind and attacks him?  The appropriate response was "Yes, I do, which my squire has seen many times when he fetched water for my bath."  Really, it was all too stupid. Loras is an idiot.

Dudes having his livelihood threatened. It's hard to think of a good enough retort under those circumstances. Hell even Tyrion who has the gift of gab couldn't do so under similar circumstances.

I agree that Loras could have saved himself if he'd thought quickly and said something like what was suggested above. In fact I feel sure that Olenna would have coached him on what to say. I can see though how he felt like shit not only about how publicly this is being handled but in the way Renly was thrown in his face. It wasn't just having to deny Renly and say that their very real and loving relationship was a lie but even being mocked for wearing Renly's armor--this is a moment where he was a hero to the people of KL and this self-righteous and prejudiced fanatic can only focus on whether or not Loras engaged in some anal sex. It's too sick and frustrating and in no way do I think that the HS is some kindly grandfather figure. The High Sparrow is bad fucking news as far as I'm concerned, I don't care if he's feeding people soup--a man with those sort of misanthropic tendencies should never have been put into a position of power. 

 

What good is having a Kingsguard if they can't protect the royal family? Pretending for a second that Tywin has been in a coma and wasn't around for Cersei's boneheaded decision to rearm the FM--I wonder what he'd do to nip that situation in the bud? Would he have let the Kingsguard loose on the Sparrows that time they denied Tommen entry into the Sept or when they decided to take Margaery? Would he just have the High Sparrow killed? What about Lancel? 

 

In the books the logical solution to the problem of the Sparrows was to have them all sent to the Wall. Not only would it have fulfilled their obligation to the Wall but it would have helped with the strain on KL in terms of food and everything.

 

In the show though I'm not sure what the best way would be to counter the damage that Cersei has already done by allowing them to take up arms in the first place.

Edited May 19, 2015 by Avaleigh

[Oscirus]

If Tywin was around, they wouldn't have been armed in the first place. The only reason all of this stuff is happening is that Cersei's running around and doing things in the name of the king  without anybody to keep her stupid plans in check. Something that Tywin definitely wouldn't have allowed to have happened.

[Avaleigh]

Cersei's so  dumb I'm surprised she remembers how to  breathe. Doesn't she understand that  if  the HS is willing to go after the Queen,  he can go after the Mother Queen too? Why does she think she's safe when the rumours that she's been fucking her twin brother behind the King's back are all around Westeros? It makes  zero sense.

It really doesn't. I suppose somewhere in her deluded brain she thinks that it doesn't do anyone any good save Stannis to prove the charges of incest. The HS's power was granted through the King and theoretically Stannis could take it away. The Tyrells need Tommen to be legitimate if they want Margaery to be Queen. 

 

From the HS's point of view, I would think that some part of him would have to understand that he needs for Tommen to stay in power if he doesn't want to deal with new king Stannis who is all about a new religion now. The Tyrells are slightly more optional but at the end of the day they need their food unless they work something out with the Vale and even then, what sort of sense does it make to alienate the second most powerful house in the 7K?

 

Tyrion's lucky  those pirates don't know about Cersei's offer for dwarves' heads.

 

 

Oh shit, I didn't even think of that. 

 

Re: Margaery's arrest--I've been thinking that she's going to be executed in the books ever since ADWD but now that she's only had one charge brought to her on the show I'm less confident that she'll lose her trial unless other stuff starts to come out about her and they haven't really set anything up yet. It doesn't make any sense for the HS to want to execute her because she perjured herself. I can't even see him attempting to justify a walk after that. Maybe a fine but being found guilty and then being executed? I don't see how that would help the Faith at all. 

 

As for the deal that it seems like the HS is going to make with Olenna--I'm guessing she's going to get her grandkids off of the hook but that they'll both have to endure trials. I'm just not sure if Loras will get a TBC. That would be three trials in one season and that sounds like it could be a bit much. 

[Calamity Jane]

I have never liked Sansa, but I have pitied her.  I don't think she will ever become like Ayra and take someone's life herself.  But I just want her to be the one to take down Littlefinger - I need it so bad.  I'm positive some less than honorable characters are going to survive this mess - there is no way they are going to let only "good guys" live at the end.  But I really want LF to bite it before we are done.  Amusingly, I don't actually need Cersei to die - I just need her defeated.  Littlefinger, Roose, and Ramsey I want dead.

With this author, I don't think we need to worry about only good guys surviving.  He seems intent on destroying as many of them as possible, and really, the message seems to be that the world is just too cold and cruel for the good and just and innocent.  

[Avaleigh]

If Tywin was around, they wouldn't have been armed in the first place. The only reason all of this stuff is happening is that Cersei's running around and doing things in the name of the king  without anybody to keep her stupid plans in check. Something that Tywin definitely wouldn't have allowed to have happened.

Well yeah, I know lol, that's why I said pretend for a moment that Tywin was in a coma when she did that. I'm just curious what the best way would be to clean up the mess that Cersei has made and wondered what he'd do or what he'd have her/Tommen do.

[Funzlerks]

Show Cersei isn't as promiscuous as Book Cersei. So, maybe she will only be accused of sleeping with Lancel. Because once she is accused of sleeping with Jaime, everyone's claim save Stannis's is pretty much shot and no one should want that, especially Olenna.

[Oscirus]

Sorry didn't read the second part that well. In that case, he'd probably have the sparrows slaughtered and do something humiliating to their bodies as a way of making an example of them.

Edited May 18, 2015 by Oscirus

[nksarmi]

Yea Show Cersei might not have as many charges lobbied at her, but the one that matters most - the one that will sink her - is Lancel.  Littlefinger knows about Lancel - and I doubt he is the only one.  I'm not sure Olenna can strike any deal with the HS that would save Loras, but as for Marg's accusations - this is really a he said/she said thing and what makes this guy's word more relevant than the queen's?  As for Loras, he would be best to demand trial by combat - there has to be a fair amount of opponents he could defeat.

[Mya Stone]

Cersei was totally channeling Willy Wonka with her fake writing dismissal of Olenna, right? 

I'm pretty sure she even threw in a "Good day." 

(To which I said out loud in the comfort of my own bed "...SIR.")

[Avaleigh]

Cersei was totally channeling Willy Wonka with her fake writing dismissal of Olenna, right? 

I'm pretty sure she even threw in a "Good day." 

(To which I said out loud in the comfort of my own bed "...SIR.")

I thought Cersei was playing hangman with herself but I like your idea better.

[Advance35]

Do I see Sansa as a victim in general?  Not sure.  I see her as a survivor and I admire her resilience.  I admit it has been frustrating watching her sit alone in her room this season instead of chatting up the castle.  That was basically Dany's technique.  She talked to the tribe and figured them out.  Of course she had Jorah with her to help.  We've seen a few people in the castle whisper to Sansa so there's some form of help there we never see her seek out.

 

This is what I like most about Sansa's character.  She has survived things I wouldn't have thought her capable of.  When this story started I did think she would die a lot earlier in KL.   I think Sansa is in a coccoon in terms of lack of trust because it's been so long.   She trust in Baelish's desire for her body (wasn't enough to hang your hat on but grown women have been known to make that mistake), but she didn't even really trust the Lords of the Vale.   Why would she rely on a fully Bolton/Frey occupied Winterfell.

 

I honestly think Roose and Ramsay are going to survive the battle for Winterfell.   Based on actors hints and so forth,  I could see Stannis losing.   What this means for Sansa and her future I couldn't say.

[that one guy]

Well, I liked it. Just like I preferred Brienne fighting the real Hound to the books' fake Hound, I like marrying Ramsay to a real Stark rather than a fake Stark. It should have been this way in the book. Yes, it was rape and disturbing, but only because Ramsay forced her to do it in front of an audience, and someone she hates for killing her family. But remember that the scene starts on their wedding night, walking into a bedroom in which they obviously intend to have consensual sex. She doesn't intend for it to be the terrible traumatic experience that it is, but she definitely intends to sleep with Ramsay - because she needs to get pregnant with his child. That's kind of the whole point of this marriage. As far as she knows, her whole family is dead and she's the last Stark. The Boltons are now Lords of Winterfell, so she needs to produce an heir who's half Bolton and half Stark. Once that's accomplished, and not before, Roose and Ramsay can be killed and Sansa installed as regent and Warden of the North. As Game of Thrones plans go, this is actually a good one - it makes sense and can be achieved.

 

As for Littlefinger, I do think he's being smart here. Stirring up conflict, he's gotten both Roose Bolton and Cersei Lannister to consent to his moving troops from the Vale into the North, and now he can do so without resistance. Each one thinks he's on their "side" even though they were on the same "side" until he stirred up trouble. Whom does he plan to support? Roose? Stannis? Cersei? The answer is, whoever happens to be winning when he gets there.

 

I don't get how Cersei could be this dumb. In the book, the Faith tortured one of her goons who gave up more information than he was supposed to. But here, the storyline is simplified - and the Sparrow shock troops are being led by Lancel, her onetime accomplice in treason and regicide. The High Sparrow likely already knows she killed King Bob. Since her crimes are far more serious than what the Tyrells are being accused of, she should be screaming at this point that the Sparrows have not right to arrest the Queen - since establishing the legal precedent that they do will likely lead to her head on a spike.

And - as someone else pointed out - where the hell were the Kingsguard?

[Haleth]

It seems pretty obvious that the HS will accuse her of adultery with Lancel since Lancel has become so prominent this season. I don't know about any accusations of complicity in Robert's death. (If the issue is incest with her cousin the irony is the HS missed an even more shocking relationship that was right in front of everyone.). We'll know for sure when we see the previouslies. As for Loras coming up with a logical explanation of why his squire would know about a birthmark, well, Loras is pretty and accomplished in combat, but no one ever sent him an application for Mensa.

I was surprised to see Mr Eko and the pirates. (Lol, spell check capitalized pirates as if I were talking about a band.) I figured Jorah's and Tyrion's journey to see Dany was going to be expedited to ignore anything that happened in the book. I guess we need to see someone in the fighting pit that we care about when the dragon comes back.

Edited May 18, 2015 by Haleth

[BlackberryJam]

I thought Cersei was playing hangman with herself but I like your idea better.

The whole season is Cersei playing hangman with herself...she's just too stupid to realize it.

[Avaleigh]

I don't get how Cersei could be this dumb. In the book, the Faith tortured one of her goons who gave up more information than he was supposed to. But here, the storyline is simplified - and the Sparrow shock troops are being led by Lancel, her onetime accomplice in treason and regicide. The High Sparrow likely already knows she killed King Bob. Since her crimes are far more serious than what the Tyrells are being accused of, she should be screaming at this point that the Sparrows have not right to arrest the Queen - since establishing the legal precedent that they do will likely lead to her head on a spike.

And - as someone else pointed out - where the hell were the Kingsguard?

The Kingsguard were there. That was one of the things that was so crazy about the moment. Tommen put up his hand with a couple of fingers as if to stay their hands because they were going for their swords. Then Tommen looked around and I guess Olenna felt that she couldn't order him to order KG into action. 

 

What I'm curious about is why the HS didn't have Cersei seized right then and there as well. What is he waiting on? He has the power, he doesn't need her anymore, and he likely already knows. It makes it seem as though he's playing a game as opposed to just arresting the people he thinks are corrupting KL. 

Edited May 18, 2015 by Avaleigh

[VLove]

I am looking forward to the moment when Ramsay gets his. And that moment better come eventually.

 

EYE TO EYE!

 

Except Ramsay's own words continue to haunt/taunt me: "If you think this has a happy ending, you haven't been paying attention."

[Pogojoco]

Apart from the Winterfell bits (which have made me question whether I want to keep watching this show), the rest of it was decent. I loved Tyrion, Jorah and the slavers. Quick thinking resourceful Tyrion is way better than sad sack Tyrion. I really liked them discussing The Old Bear (Jorah's face!) 

 

Jamie and Bronn are always fun, but the Sand Snakes are lame. That wasn't a good fight. It was all twirly cameras and no real fighting. 

 

Arya's part had some beautiful and interesting images. It's equal parts seductive and creepy for Arya. 

[jjjmoss]

Just weighing in to say that Loras is an idiot.  His former squire says "He has a birthmark" and he loses his mind and attacks him?  The appropriate response was "Yes, I do, which my squire has seen many times when he fetched water for my bath."  Really, it was all too stupid. Loras is an idiot.

Lol, silly, he's gay and can't get any dimension beyond that, so of course he has no room for an iota of intelligence.

 

When Jaquen said something like "you're ready to become someone else," it made me wonder if they're skipping her adventures as Cat of the Canals and Beth the Blind Girl and getting right to her first asassination mission.  Like next week she'll stalk and kill the insurance underwriter guy, and maybe run into someone else who happens to be visiting Braavos and on her death list...

 

That would annoy me; so far Arya's stuff has been useless for me, and I enjoyed both Cat and Beth. 

[mac123x]

That would annoy me; so far Arya's stuff has been useless for me, and I enjoyed both Cat and Beth. 

 

It has been pretty dull, but I expect she'll kill her target, kill Merryn Trant on the side, get in trouble for "giving the gift" for personal reasons, and get turned into Beth.  Basically Trant substitutes for the Nightswatch guy she killed in the books.

[Dobian]

She looked just as terrified as she did on her wedding night to Tyrion. There was nothing in her performance that shows she's doing this for power or revenge. If she tried to seduce Ramsay or manipulate the situation I could buy into the notion that she's learning but it didn't happen. And again how is she going to kill them all?

 

I think poison should be the method of choice.  Ramsay would be quite easy, just put it in his mouth when he's sleeping.

[xls]

Do these assholes have a fucking rape fetish?  God that scene was gross and disgusting and fuck them for deciding it was necessary.

 

The rest of the episode was pretty terrible too.  Only Maisie Williams and Peter Dinklage saved any part of it.  The showrunners have no idea what they're doing without Martin to guide them.

The Wedding Night Rape is becoming such a cliché with GOT and other costume dramas and I'm so sick of it.They even changed Danny's wedding night scene from a seduction by Kal Drog into the usual forced doggie-style. (If I recall correctly)

I don't know if I will continue watching.

[Zaffy]

Seriously.  What makes them think viewers want or need to see any more of this shit?!?

the more horrible the crimes of the bad people the biggest the satisfaction of the audience when the bad people will perish. 

isnt this the target of almost every GOT plot? The joy of watching Ramsey getting killed in some brutal way will be rewarding. Or will be?

[Pogojoco]

I would've found Ramsey's death satisfying even if Sansa had never returned to Winterfell at all. 

[MadMouse]

Figured we all needed a laugh and we can all agree the Dorne stuff is horrible.

 

[cambridgeguy]

 

Lol, silly, he's gay and can't get any dimension beyond that, so of course he has no room for an iota of intelligence.

My trusted squire has betrayed me with these lies is also a plausible excuse and no one, straight or otherwise, came up with that either.  Being short tempered and short sighted is hardly limited to Loras.  In fact, his indiscriminately sleeping around makes him exactly the same as Robert and Tyrion.  The only difference is that those two aren't around for the religious fanatics to imprison.

 

 

I think poison should be the method of choice.  Ramsay would be quite easy, just put it in his mouth when he's sleeping.

Ramsay dying in his sleep won't satisfy the audience - his death needs to be as painful and terrifying as possible.  Thematically a Stark should be the one to do it. Imagine the thrills if the Brotherhood without Banners is wandering the North for some reason and snags Ramsay - the last scene of the season could be LS unmasking and ordering him hung. 

[Scratch]

The fight scene in Dorne was abysmal. All of a sudden, Jaime and Bronn have somehow infiltrated the gardens and of course the Sand Snakes show up at the same time. What the bloody hell kind of writing is that. That really irked me.

 

However, unlike others, I'm not so convinced that the truly horrible to watch scene of Sansa being raped by Ramsey is out of place to the characters and setting. While good arguments could  be made about the plot contrivances to get Sansa to there being strained, and good arguments could be made that maybe because of what Sansa learned from the time with Joffrey that she should have begun trying to figure out some sort of plot and resources to protect herself against Ramsey, the facts that she had not and that she ended up in that chamber pretty much means that Ramsey Bolton was going to rape her. Ramsey Bolton is vile and horrible, he takes pleasure in inflicting pain on people. 

 

And that is quite true to the spirit of the actual books -- that no one is invulnerable and that everyone is flawed. It's a harsh and ugly world with some vile characters running around in a strongly patriarchal society. In the books, it was Jeyne Poole who got victimized. Here it was Sansa. That is a terrible and horrible fact in both the film and literary universes. Jeyne Poole's rape and humiliation by Ramsey was horrible in the books, and Sansa's rape and humiliation is awful here. 

 

I hated watching that scene. It filled me with anger at Ramsey Bolton and those around him who enable him. It was some of the most uncomfortable television I've ever watched and if I ever decide to rewatch this season, I'll likely not watch it again, but just skip on to the next episode when it's time.

[Hecate7]

^ And it will have a better payoff with Sansa than Jeyne.  I am hoping beyond hope that Sansa more or less saves herself, or at least actively participates in her rescue with Theon or Brienne or Stannis, whoever arrives first.  Jeyne was too beaten to do anything for herself.

Besides which, Jeyne was a substitute for Sansa or Arya to begin with.

[Dewey Decimate]

The only part of this ep that I enjoyed was Bronn going "You fight pretty well. For a girl(woman/female whatever word he used)."  He seemed surprised and it made me chuckle. 

 

I think Bronn's words were something like "You fight pretty good, for a little girl." Which immediately made me wish for SexyVoice GrammarHound Stannis Baratheon to teleport in and quip "'Well.' She fights 'well' for a little girl." I adore that man.

 

I freakin' loved Tyrion's witty denial of a proportionally-sized wiener, but then laughed even harder at Mr. Eko's needing to find a cock merchant. Holy shit! I picture him checking the Yellow Pages for "COCK MERCHANTS - see also: DICK MONGERS".

 

Horrific events in WF, but every actor is killing it. KL action is fantastic too - strangely, my stomach feels even more knotted at the doings there than in WF. Something about (essentially) rule by a fanatical theocracy sends chills down my spine. Even more so than a deranged hobbit and his cold-as-ice dad. There are a thousand ways to kill a man in Westeros; conquering a religion and its followers, not so easy.

[Ambrosefolly]

So pretty much the KL moral is that putting a religion in power (the Red God, the Seven) is a bad idea.

[Dandesun]

The Dorne storyline needs to have a point. I need to understand why Doran is suddenly only father to one and Ellaria is all REVENGE!! when she was quite the opposite. I loved her whole bit about revenge not holding her at night and such and how pointless it was and how it only bred more revenge. I can HOPE that is where this is going to lead her because otherwise... I don't see a very good end for Ellaria (and I need to have Indira Varma on my television, dammit, and most of what I end up watching her in results in her dying. She's like the feminine version of Sean Bean for me!)

 

And Arianne being missing means that the whole concept of Dorne attempting to crown Myrcella goes away... which also means that Doran's uber long view of the Game gets shut down. Unless he spills it all to Jaime and... why the hell would he do that? I need Dorne to step it up because other than looking gorgeous, it's letting me down.

 

As I said before, the Sansa storyline went the way I was expecting it to. The question is how they're going to deal with it now. One of the bigger problems is that the rape trope has long become played out here. It's the expected result in any situation where a woman is in danger. And 'of course' really shouldn't be the response when it comes to something like this. Alas, no going back there but they need to step it up in regards to what Sansa CAN do. A teenaged virginal girl, no matter what she's been through, isn't going to be able to wile her way out of not consummating her marriage to the resident asshole. Sansa may have learned how to survive but no one has taught her anything about using her feminine wiles as a weapon. What... was Cersei going to teach her that shit? There has been absolutely nothing in the entirety of this series that has convinced me that Cersei has any feminine wiles herself. From the start she's been a sour faced shit who looks down on everyone and relies solely on her resting bitchface and her family name. I think Lena Headey is awesome but her Cersei has never struck me as remotely seductive. Ever.

 

So how does Sansa learn how to deal with Ramsay? Dany had help on that score from her various ladies but Sansa doesn't have that... except from Myranda and, yoinks, that would just be uncomfortable.

 

And I don't know how much I can take of Ramsay treating Sansa poorly so we get the idea of 'the crying of Sansa Stark is more dangerous to the Bolton's than the army of Stannis Baratheon.' If they are going to go for a 'The North Remembers' storyline then they had best get to it! Make this shit worth my while, Show!!

[Helena Dax]

I'm not  that surprised there are cock merchants on that side of the Narrow Sea. I mean, they seem to think  they  have magic properties, as young Varys learnt years ago.

 

Find  your balls,  Tommen, or people will start calling you Tommen the Unsullied.

[Ambrosefolly]

So how does Sansa learn how to deal with Ramsay? Dany had help on that score from her various ladies but Sansa doesn't have that... except from Myranda and, yoinks, that would just be uncomfortable.

 

As bad as Dany's first few scenes with Drogo were, Drogo always treasured her for her from the beginning and it had nothing to do with her title or what kind of prestige it could give him, he already had it. He wasn't trying to please anyone else. While Ramsay did acknowledge Sansa's beauty, she is viewed in much the same way that Margarery was viewed by Joffrey - a means to an end. He needs to earn something from his father because he can't earn it himself. 

[Hecate7]

The Wedding Night Rape is becoming such a cliché with GOT and other costume dramas and I'm so sick of it.They even changed Danny's wedding night scene from a seduction by Kal Drog into the usual forced doggie-style. (If I recall correctly)

I don't know if I will continue watching.

 

 

These are marriages arranged against the girls' wills. We don't like to face what that really means, which is that for centuries women did not get a say in sex. Who they had it with, when, and why, were all decided for them by other people. And we especially don't like to confront that this means Wedding Night Rape, most of the time. Romeo and Juliet were the exception, not the rule. We don't want to look back at history and think that we come from generation upon generation of Wedding Night Rape. But we do, most of us. There's an occasional anomaly, and of course there are girls "making the best of it," but for the most part, more sex was rape, than wasn't. It was assumed that women didn't want sex anyway and so it wasn't that big a deal for them to have nonconsensual sex all their lives in order to produce heirs.

[Haleth]

"COCK MERCHANTS - see also: DICK MONGERS".

 

I think I went to High School with Dick Mongers.

(Sorry, I couldn't resist.)

[WatchrTina]

 

 

The Kingsguard were there. That was one of the things that was so crazy about the moment. Tommen put up his hand with a couple of fingers as if to stay their hands because they were going for their swords. Then Tommen looked around and I guess Olenna felt that she couldn't order him to order KG into action.

What I'm curious about is why the HS didn't have Cersei seized right then and there as well.

 

I was appalled that Tommen didn't order the Kingsguard to protect the Queen but he is very young and his mother the Regent wasn't calling for action and he really really doesn't want to see blood shed.  If, however, the Faith Militant had seized Cersie, SHE would have ordered the Kingsguard to kill them all to protect her.  And they would have.  I think the High Sparrow knew Cersie wanted Margery seized.  For all we know, she told him that Margery was Loras' "procurer" or something along those lines at the same time she offered up Loras, and he has simply been biding his time -- waiting to trap her in perjury before seizing her.

 

 

Find  your balls,  Tommen, or people will start calling you Tommen the Unsullied.

This needs to happen -- at least here on the boards.

 

Add me to the list of people who regret that religious fundamentalism has become a driving force in the narrative.  It's just so depressing.

Edited May 19, 2015 by WatchrTina

[benteen]

About Loras using common sense to deny Olyvar's claims, don't forget this is Loras.  He's always been an act first, think later (much, much later) kind of guy.  THAT was the one aspect of his character that the show got right last night.

 

It's interesting that Magarey is being arrested on even more flimsy evidence than she was in the book.  I think the Tyrells were going to be arrested no matter what.  I'm curious what the end game here is...the Tyrells are the real power in King's Landing now that Tywin is dead.  The Faith needs them and they need Tommen, who "gave them" their power.

I got the impression that Tommen realized that Magarey is never going to sleep with him again after this. 

 

Among the many things I'm disappointed with in the character assassination of Ser Loras is that we lost his mentorship of Tommen.  That was a nice little bit in the books.

 

Olenna's "It smells like shit from five miles away!" line was great.

 

As much as I hated the ending, the acting was of course first-rate.  I was particularly impressed with Iwan Rheon, as I thought he made Ramsay more terrifying than he'd ever been before.  It helps that Show Ramsay isn't completely over-the-top like Show Ramsay.  He has much more of a quiet menace, like you're always waiting for the next shoe to drop.

Edited May 19, 2015 by benteen

[Knuckles]

I rewatched the episode tonight, as I usually do, but i turned it off mid-wedding. I do not want to see or hear that again.

Agree that Loras could have saved himself, and perhaps his sister, if he simply explained what a squire does...which includes dressing his knight.

As for Olyvar...he looked so smug...but as an admitted sodomite, whose little turn as a snitch is done, I expect him to catch the full weight of whatever punishment the Sparrows dish out...bro did not think this one thru. Being a snitch is a dangerous business. Often short-lived.

And did the same director who delivered such great stuff as Jorah and Tryion meeting the slavers also direct the amateur theatrics at Dorne? Skip the sorry sand snakes, just consider that Jamie, a combat veteran, and Bronn, an experienced sell-sword, walk into a large, maze-like garden in the middle of the day, without even re-conning the layout of the place, or figuring out an escape route, or  counting the guards present. These two are not Seal Team 6, 

[Arnella]

 

Sansa to Myranda:  "I'm Sansa Stark, BITCH."

HA!  That's exactly how I described it to a co-worker today!    I took that scene as that girl trying to scare her but actually it served to prepare her a little (since there was no way for her to prepare completely) for what was to come and steeled her resolve to survive it.  I'm just hoping for the day when she is Wardeness of the North!

 

Finally got some Tyrion snark and genius manipulation of lesser minds!  Missed it so bad!  I hope Jorah appreciates it.

 

Love Oleanna so much... "What veil?"  I hope she saves her grandchildren and gets Cersei her walk of shame.

 

That Sand Snake/Jamie/Bronn scene seemed pointless to me.  If it was to give us a cool battle - uhhh, no.  Make us like or dislike Myrcella or Tristane - nope, neither!  It made the Sand Snakes and Jamie and Bronn look pretty incompetent (Jamie captured AGAIN).  I hope it's not to give Bronn a useless death by poison!

Edited May 19, 2015 by Arnella

[Zalyn]

She looked just as terrified as she did on her wedding night to Tyrion. There was nothing in her performance that shows she's doing this for power or revenge. If she tried to seduce Ramsay or manipulate the situation I could buy into the notion that she's learning but it didn't happen. And again how is she going to kill them all? With who? Her only hope is to sit around and wait for either Stannis or Littlefinger to rescue her. But it'll just be a replay of Blackwater with Theon taking the place of the Hound and her escaping with him. 

This is what drove me bonkers about that scene.  If Sansa had actually had some sort of agency or exercised some power of her own - to show that she is this "hardened woman" - then I would have accepted this scene as accomplishing something.  I'd buy "seductive/charming Sansa" because that would show that she's taken Littlefinger's advice to heart and used information from Miranda (kind of how Daenerys started to take charge with Drogo).  Alternatively, if Sansa just went total Stone-Cold Quiet while she was being raped, and we got a shot of her face, tight with stoicism and burning with resentment, then there would be a clear sign of strength and agency - making it about her (and not about Theon's angst).  But the way it played out, it did nothing to show us that Sansa is any different from how she started out, or that she's any different from any other woman (which is part of the terrorism of M-F rape).  Lazy writing, repetitive tropes, nothing interesting.

 

I also really resent that the writers are using Sansa's rape as a tool to get us to hate Ramsey more and to look forward to him dying horribly; we didn't need that, and it does great disservice to Sansa, whose story is more important than Ramsey's and Theon's combined.

[Bats27]

Hello everyone.  This is my first time here, and I really wish that it was under less, angry circumstances.  Anyway I've never been a guy who believes that any and all changes are toe source material are automatically bad, and I've supported some of the changes on this show even.  But this, this was a mistake imo.

 

"Rape as plot device/character motivation" is already one of the most overused, lazy, cheap, and problematic clichés in all of fictions, and this show has gone to that well too often as it is.  That the writers deliberately changed Sansa's storyline for the sake of "she gets raped," made me want to bang my head against a wall.  You seriously couldn't think of ANYTHING else to do with her.  NO other way to develop her character, without resorting to this tired trope, seriously writers?  Show some creativity.  And it's just pointless.  We didn't learn anything new here and EVERYTHING that could possibly come of it could have been done without playing the rape card.

 

-Ramsay is a sadistic monster-We already knew that.

-Life for women in Westeros sucks-We already knew that.

-Theon needs to "snap out of it"-Well if it takes Sansa being raped in order for that to happen, then that's another huge can of worms right there.

-Sansa needs to "develop" as a character-And all of the other traumas that she's endured weren't enough to do that (seriously, her entire story has been about abuse/degradation).  You needed to through a rape in there to, seriously?

 

It's pointless and makes no sense to boot.  You know they COULD have made this less squicky if Sansa would have used her sexuality to lure Ramsay into a false sense of security/complacency.  It's still kind of messed-up, but at least she has some agency of her own and it'd fit in with her character arc. But that would require some thoughtful writing so of course it didn't happen.

[jeansheridan]

I was appalled that Tommen didn't order the Kingsguard to protect the Queen but he is very young and his mother the Regent wasn't calling for action and he really really doesn't want to see blood shed.  If, however, the Faith Militant had seized Cersie, SHE would have ordered the Kingsgu

 

Add me to the list of people who regret that religious fundamentalism has become a driving force in the narrative.  It's just so depressing.

Mellisandre has freaked me out from the get go too. Let her battle it out with the High Sparrow. Arya is also with religious zealots. And Bran is doing some transcendental thing. Religion has always been in this world. And thus far, other than the reanimated knight, they all seem dangerous and creepy.

[BruceAE]

The further the show departs from the books, the more they start relying on tired tropes and techniques - something GRR has always subverted.

 

The coincidence of Jaime & Bronn arriving at the exact same time as the Sand Snakes being one such example.  

 

My view on this scene probably isn't helped given the Sand Snakes have failed for me on every level.  I don't find them interesting, compelling, convincing or sympathetic.  I loved Oberyn, and thought the show improved what was already a very interesting character, but somehow they have gone the absolute reverse direction with the Snakes.

 

The rest of the episode was good, but it felt like setup for more interesting events further down the road.

 

...

 

I suppose I should mention 'that scene' at the end of the episode, but honestly I was expecting far worse from Ramsay.  Sansa has proven an expert at social survival, so I have no doubt after this she will adapt and learn how to either manage Ramsay or change her situation for the better.

[FemmyV]

I've never been a big fan of Sansa as a character and this show was a reminder that, in spite of everything she's been through, Sansa Stark of Winterfell is still thinking like the spoiled brat she was in Season 1. And I hate to say it, but in the laws of TV soap writers going back decades, rape is the route of choice for redeeming young, selfish brats.

 

Or, to put it a more kind way: Sansa is where she is now, because, like Tommen, she has her head up her ass. She wanted to be queen, but she never put any thought into about what Queens do and how they do it, beyond getting their hair brushed every night and fine fabrics stiched (side note: Sansa's Winterfell wardrobe is ugly beyond ugly. Calling LL Bean for rescue.

 

She could have taken Theon's arm, as he begged, but she chose not to look beyond her hatred.

 

When asked why she was a virgin, Sansa could have chosen a lie that didn't elevate Tyrion and make Ramsey look like a heathen in comparison. "I'd have loved to, but the Imp was always too drunk to pull it off," would have been an easy exit from that conversation, and given Ramsey a reason to try impress her, in a good way.

 

If, for that one minute, Sansa had the ability to look beyond her own discomfort, that would have been an indicator she was ready to start taking an active position, manipulate Ramsey, and play the damn. Game. But she wasn't ready, still. To compare Sansa to the other female power characters, it shows something Margaery, Dany, Cersei, and even Cate all understood: weilding power comes, partly, from the ability to give others what they want, and not just worrying about yourself.

 

Won't it be interesting to see what choices Sansa makes next? I have little doubt the writers will, eventually, grow her up and give her long-range motivations other than pure survival. Right now it looks like they're going for rape-redemption and, shiiiiiit ... it was a stupid shortcut on the soaps and it is on GoT, too.

 

 

However, I don't believe the true villain of this scene is the sick bastard Ramsey, but Littlefinger.  I never once believed that he wouldn't use anyone - even Sansa - for his own gain and he did when he arranged her marriage here.  Even if Ramsey wasn't a crazy psycho, he had to know that something very similar to this scene would play out for Sansa.  Yet he used her a chess piece all the same.

 

Exactly. When Sansa pulls her head out of her ass, I expect she'll realize how much Littlefinger manipulated events in her family, all along, marry him and stick the knife between his shoulder blades in one way or another, wind up Lady of the North AND the Vale, and, if she has any self-awareness, at long last, will also realize how unfit she is to even try to rule Westeros.

 

 

First award for tonight's episode goes to the cinematographer.  The episode was full of visual delights like the hall of faces and the nighttime Winterfell wedding scene.

 

OMG, yes. And isn't it funny, how weddings in Westeros are such beautiful, dignified affairs while actual marriages ... not so much? But the Godswood was lovely.

 

The hall of faces - and so much in the House of B & W - reminds me of HR Giger's works.

[Pete Martell]

If, for that one minute, Sansa had the ability to look beyond her own discomfort, that would have been an indicator she was ready to start taking an active position, manipulate Ramsey, and play the damn. Game. But she wasn't ready, still. To compare Sansa to the other female power characters, it shows something Margaery, Dany, Cersei, and even Cate all understood: weilding power comes, partly, from the ability to give others what they want, and not just worrying about yourself.

 

The main difference between Sansa and those women is lack of support. She has no "good" man, the way that Catelyn had Ned or Dany had Khal. She has no dragons, the way Dany did. She has no proud family lineage behind her, the way Cat and Margaery did. She has no family who could help her find a way to power, the way Margaery or Cat did. She doesn't even have a Jorah figure, the way Dany did. Her Jorah figure is a complete shit-for-brains who lets her get raped while he's busy smirking away in King's Landing. 

 

Even with Joffrey, Olenna knew that marriage was a terrible idea, and she had him killed before he ever got to touch Margaery in a marital bed. 

 

Sansa has nothing and no one. If she did, they would have never let her near Ramsay, because no amount of feminine wiles or cunning manipulation can get to Ramsay. He's a monster. He would brutalize her at some point, in some way, for some reason. She can't do anything about that. She can't do anything about anything, because she has zero agency until it's time for someone to "save" her.

 

That's the reason why I've grown tired of Sansa's story - the show bends over backwards to find ways to victimize her. Other than Dany, this show seems to only see women as victims, villains, or repressed figures who only show emotion in "bad-ass" action scenes. 

Edited May 19, 2015 by Pete Martell

[Bats27]

The problem with that theory is that they've specifically said that Littlefinger DIDN'T know about Ramsay's "habits," (which I'm buying in the slightest writers).  And they also said that if he DID know, that he wouldn't have put her in that situation to begin with (which I CAN buy). 

 

And IF it turns out that the writers are really going for a "rape=redemption/empowerment" idea, then I'll probably puke my guts out in disgust.

Edited May 19, 2015 by Bats27

[FemmyV]

 

The main difference between Sansa and those women is lack of support. She has no "good" man, the way that Catelyn had Ned or Dany had Khal. She has no dragons, the way Dany did. She has no proud family lineage behind her, the way Cat and Margaery did. She has no family who could help her find a way to power, the way Margaery or Cat did. She doesn't even have a Jorah figure, the way Dany did. Her Jorah figure is a complete shit-for-brains who lets her get raped while he's busy smirking away in King's Landing.

 

Oh, I wildly disagree.

Maybe she has no good counsel right now, but she's had plenty of people around her for support overall. She grew up adored and doted on, while Dany had no one but Viserys and his abuse. But Dany DID have the smarts to ask someone to help her wrap Drogo around her finger, sexually. Sansa could have asked Shae for help there (and wouldn't that have been interesting?). Sansa has proud family lineage to spare, Kings of the North, etc. etc.

 

I think Sansa's problem is she wants the pretty trappings that go with have power, and doesn't understand how they go together.