S07.E06: Double Down On Delusion

[ottergirl]

ITA. I get that she doesn't have a mean bone in her body like others have said, but she doesn't have a kind or gracious one either. It is all about Sonja, all the time.

 

 

I agree - I think it's kind of a pre-requisite that you be a narcissist to be on a show like this, but I haven't seen Sonja show any interest in anyone but herself since the first season she was on.  She was great that long-ago time, with Kelley on Scary Island, self-deprecatingly funny.  But she started her next season with a raging out-of-control ego (remember refusing to let Alex/Simon speak at the Marriage Equality event?), and since then, it just keeps escalating.  I think Kristen's blog this week was sort of telling - she said that last season she thought Sonja was putting on an act (for the show), but now she sees that it's not an act, (implied:  Sonja truly is insane) and that makes her sad.

 

As the episode got underway last night, I said to my husband (who will never get why his seemingly normal wife watches this stuff) "This is how I love my Housewives - Fighting about being left out in the rain because Lady Morgan won't let them in!" It was the sort of no-stakes conflict that is this show at its best.  But then it went on, and Sonja spiraled, and I thought...oh dear, we're getting dark again.  (Granted, it was at least FUNNY dark, with the partying with John-John.)

 

Although it does make one cross-franchise point, namely:  the difference between being an addict (Sonja) and being an addict WHO IS ALSO AN ASSHOLE (Kim/Brandi).  Sonja is delusional, self-obsessed, and broken.  But she's not mean and she doesn't attack.  I guess in Housewives land, that practically qualifies her for sainthood?

 

I also agree with the commenter who said that at least for this episode, I'm Team B.  She was just as I loved her back in the day: funny, truth-telling, but not above it all.  However...

 

...I also saw editing machinations - the whole thing seemed to me like a producer assignment:  "Okay, all the supporting cast sit here at breakfast and talk about Sonja, while we send Lady Morgan upstairs for a private conversation with Bethenny, allowing Bethenny to show empathy and relatability whilst a Skinnygirl logo faces the camera."  Don't get me wrong, I LIKED Bethenny in the conversation, and I think she was empathetic and sincere, but at the same time, I think the producers specifically set it up to make sure she got to showcase the Softer Side of B.

 

People have said that Andy was undone a few weeks ago on WWHL, when a caller said that Bethenny was coming off like Jill Zarin in Season 3.  And on her blogs and in her twitter feed, Bethenny has entered apology mode, saying that she is coming off harsh but it's because she was stressed out; and now she's doing things like tweeting supportively to Kristen's business (apparently she shreds it during the season itself) and interviewing "I really LIKE Heather, this is all blown out of proportion."  I am suspecting now that there is some behind-the-scenes editing taking place to make sure the Queen B comes off well. 

 

Whether or not that's happening, even on screen, it does seem like a weird dynamic this season - like the rules are different for Bethenny.  Not only the most airtime is she getting, but also consistent product placement (like THAT wasn't negotiated), sympathetic storyline plotting, and obviously exempt from some of the rules (doesn't have to share a suite, doesn't have to be at Sonja's on time, only attending events she cares to attend).  I suspect some of the bad dynamic that might be rising up is because others are chafing at that "separate and unequal" treatment on what has always been an ensemble show.   I don't know if I can blame Bethenny for that - she negotiated the best deal she could get - but it makes the series seem less authentic, somehow.  As if that were possible.

 

All THAT said - still like the show.  I just watch it knowing that part of what I'm watching is stuff like "who negotiated the best deal" and "who's doing the best job managing their narrative," which to me is equally interesting.  Way back in the early days of Real World, one of the Beths from Season 2 LA (lesbian Beth, WHY DO I REMEMBER THESE THINGS) said that the real story of Real World is "how do people bounce off craziness" - and that's how I look at this.  It's not real.  But their reactions and their strategies and their effort to present themselves a certain way is real, and interesting to watch.

Edited May 13, 2015 by ottergirl

[Mountainair]

I'll admit to peeing outside, as an adult, but I was 9 months pregnant, all my bathrooms were occupied, it was pitch black dark outside and no cameras were rolling. I can hold my pee with the best of them and I've had two children. My husband on the other hand, drives me nuts, as soon as the mood strikes him we have to stop so he can pee. He can't even hold it for a minute. Whatever, on camera for my family to see, never! 

 

Wasn't it just last season that Sonja and Ramona were bitching about Kristen and her terrible hosting skills while in Colorado. Was it Colorado? I can't remember. They were just ragging on her and saying how they would have done this and this and had this and this available, etc. 

 

Let me get this straight. Everyone was supposed to pow wow in front of Lady Morgan's home inside the limo and then head to AC as a group. They were to meet at the limo at a certain time however the limo was not there and they were made to wait outside in the elements. Now, I am no Emily Post or Countess or Lady however in my first hand experience I have had family meet at my house to then caravan to a specific function. Technically all that needs to happen is everyone show up on time, sit in their cars until everyone arrives and then we leave. What if someone needs to pee? What if its too cold, too hot to sit outside, what if someone is running late? Personally, if I invite everyone only to my driveway I still clean the inside of my house top to bottom on the off chance that someone might need to enter. That is a good hostess. Always be prepared. I don't want to hear shit out of her mouth about how she is the only one who knows how to properly host. 

[trimthatfat]

I don't agree with Bethenny peeing on the side of the road, but really, if you have to go, you should go. Holding pee does far more harm than a lot of people realize.

[Higgins]

That's certainly possible (and it all fell flat in the delivery perhaps). But I think she was more than half serious, given that she does publicly speak highly of her body -- might be less tongue-in-cheek and more face-up-her-own-ass:

 

The honoree paired one of her favorite dresses from her closet with a Chanel coat for the evening. "I'm blessed," Radziwill told Us. "God gave me a whole bunch of other issues, but my body is good."

 http://www.usmagazine.com/celebrity-news/news/carole-radziwill-on-thin-bod-i-have-a-crazy-metabolism-2012139#ixzz3ZzRjMaH6

 

Okay? I couldn't disagree more. I would rather be 20 lbs "overweight" than have a body like Carole's. Especially if the weight is in the right places. It's all about hip to waist ratio in beauty and health.

[ZaldamoWilder]

This has probably been said by now.  If so, apologies, but these two things made my night:

 

Sonja:  I've partied with Madonna and John John Kennedy

Dorinda:  Well John John's dead so that's difficult

 

Sonja the next morning:  I don't know what's wrong with me, it must be the baromic pressure, we're so high up.

Kristen (snickering):  Yep, that's absolutely right, it's the baromic pressure.

 

Now something is wrong with me because as much as I felt for her when she was trying to talk to Sonja, I couldn't stop giggling that there's someone who verbally exhausts Bethenney. 

 

When Kristen is laughing at your dumbassery it's been a bad night.

[Mountainair]

 

 

Now something is wrong with me because as much as I felt for her when she was trying to talk to Sonja, I couldn't stop giggling that there's someone who verbally exhausts Bethenney. 

 

 

Yes! Between B and Sonja's non-stop talking over each other back and forth I was reminded of my five year old who Never! Stops! Talking! Ever!!!!

A few scenes later B said that Sonja reminded her of a 4 year old so that made me LOL!

[FamilyVan]

Another thing that I find hard to believe is that Sonja is claiming that her $7M lawsuit is what's preventing her from moving on from her ex.  Nah.  I think even if she settled that thing tomorrow, she'd find something else to blame for still being hung up on him.  She's the queen of excuses.  And really, I don't think she misses him as much as she misses being Mrs. John Morgan with endless money and connections.

 

 

She wants to date and she feels like how can she meet someone while she is having all this financial ruin.  So let's say she meets a guy, and she will want a guy that is super successful and has means, and she is like I have a 7M lawsuit, she feels like it is a strike against her and the guy is going to be like "check please".  When I got divorced my credit was shot and I was loosing my house. I knew I could not date while all that was going on, it made me not as much of a "catch".  It's instability.

 

I wouldn't have minded seeing thus group hanging out at the Tropicana with the lifers though.

 

 

Is Showboat still there?  LOL.  I have not been to AC since the 90's but up the top there was this place called Showboat all decked out with lattice work and the color scheme was apricot and kelly green.  It was so old school and hilarious.

 

The reference to JFK Jr. was making me uncomfortable and I am just glad Carole was not around when that was being thrown out there.

Edited May 13, 2015 by FamilyVan

[imjagain]

Don't do it Lisa!.... um......er......I mean, ryebread!!!

I agree that her tone was very bitchy! The Countess wasn't too broken up emotionally over the demise of her marriage as I think they did have an "understanding." She was more upset about the loss of housing, money and status which makes her comment event worse since she knows that Ramona is really hurting since she loved Mario.

I'm not sure if this is fair. We don't really know how upset Luann was about the end of her marriage. Lu seemed to want to keep a good face on for her children. If her and the Count had an arrangement idk, but I'm sure being tossed aside for another woman hurt Lu. Ramona doesn't imo get to much sympathy from Lu because Ramona was horrid to Lu. Imo Lu has been way more kind then I would be to Ramona. And way more kind then Ramona was to Lu. Edited May 13, 2015 by imjagain

[slitz]

What in the sweet holy hell was that?!?!  Sonja is seriously delusional.  I'm not sure who's in denial more, her or Kim Richards?  I can just see it now...

 

Kim: I'm in 100% goddamn pain!

 

Sonja: I partied with John John Kennedy and Madonna!

 

Kim:  Kyle stole my goddamn house!

 

Sonja:  I've been in PR my whole life because I promote people!

 

Kim: I am 100% goddamn sober...except for that one slip...but it wasn't a goddamn relapse...I was in 100% goddamn pain!

 

Sonja: P Diddy partied on my yacht!  You haven't lived the life!  Smokey-eye, updo, Gstaad!  Smokey-eye, updo, Gstaad!  Smokey-eye, updo, Gstaad!

[Morbs]

Was I the only one who didn't get the "smokey eye, updo and shot"?

 

 

I didn't get it either.  I thought Bethenny and Sonja had an off camera conversation where Sonja was literally repeating the words updo over and over.  Besides the drunken conversation late in the episode after Bethenny made her "Repeater Superhero joke" where Sonja kept going over why she was offended, I don't think Sonja repeats things that much.  Actually, I'm always impressed how she has new friends and careers to brag about.  I used to think Sonja was just funny and in on the joke.

 

Another thing about Sonja continuing to drink after she got back to the hotel, it appeared like Dorinda was helping her open the bottle!

 

I hate Heather.  She causes the problems about Sonja not inviting them in (why would you want to go inside that trap house anyways?  wouldn't you just assume Sonja wasn't anticipating her apt being filmed and thats why she didn't want you in there?), she even told them to wait in the limo at one point so I think it was there, and she gets mad about Bethenny being late (and then shows up an hour late herself) and THEN gets out of the limo like being in there was torture with those women, when she was the one making every situation worse.  Then don't go on these trips, Heather, we won't miss you!

[WireWrap]

I thought the bunny ears were fun. What better place to ham it up, sartorially, than at a Casino!

 

As for Sonja? Oh man. It's been said that when people are going through a rough emotional patch, we tend to retreat, mentally, to a time when we thought we were at the top of our game. Seems to me that that is exactly what Sonja is doing. But enough! Time to get help, Sonja! On another Sonja note, I wanted to shake her when she kept saying how "artists" are supposed to "understand" and "accept" everything about everyone. Um, no. And beyond that, though Sonja can be sweet, she is a stone-cold snob. The other night, on WWHL, Andy asked Diddy (who was surprisngly awesome on the show) if he knew Sonja (because last year Sonja said that Diddy had partied on "her yacht") and Diddy responded, "baby girl is very imaginative!" HA! Well, that imagination was on full display tonight!

 

I didn't think that Lu's comment to Ramona about "being better" without Mario was that awful. Ramona DOES show flashes of being a kinder, gentler Ramona. That said, she really needs to learn to treat people working in the service industry much better. My LAWD, how freaking RUDE was she to the driver!? Just gross!

 

On the fence about Heather. On one hand, Sonja can bring out the worst in people with her "to the (prostitution) manor born" shtick. So, I could see where the whole "not in my house, be gone!" episode was a "last straw" of sorts, and Heather just lost it. On the other hand (and I can't believe I am about to defend Bethenny), when heather refused to admit she was late getting ready for dinner, I wanted to punch the TV screen.

According to a tweet last night from Heather, they were all in her room when Bethenny/Sonja said she was late! LOL She was there (her room) and ready so she did not understand why they said she was late.

[pawsodoom]

I really don't like Carole.

 

She's trying too hard.

 

My take on Beth's interaction with Sonja is colored by a recent rewatching of Scary Island.  I don't want to drag up old business, but back then, Sonja was pretty f'ing rational and called Kelly on being nuts and tried to dial down the psychosis and drama.  Now Sonja is all satchels of gold and Al Sharpton, err, John John and Madonna.  She's just as off the farm as Kelly was on those eps.  I think Beth wanted to bring Sonja back around to the former gal she knew.  I don't even really like Bethenny, but I don't think her one on one with Sonja was about her (Beth).  Next week's previews, yeah.  But not that convo.

 

The conversations between Sonja and Bethenny were exasperating. I could understand Beth's reaction over Sonja repeating herself over and over. I deal with that everyday with my mother-in-law. However, my MIL is 95 years old and has no short-term memory to speak of, so she has an excuse. I find it painful to watch Sonja because she is trying so hard to project an image of being a successful, put-together, happy, and confident woman, when she is none of those things. I don't think she is inherently mean/evil (a la Kim Richards), but she seems insecure. Going from being at the "top" with the marriage to Old Man Morgan to where she is now is quite a drop in stature and it has certainly done a number on her.

[SFoster21]

She's trying too hard.

The conversations between Sonja and Bethenny were exasperating. I could understand Beth's reaction over Sonja repeating herself over and over. I deal with that everyday with my mother-in-law. However, my MIL is 95 years old and has no short-term memory to speak of, so she has an excuse. I find it painful to watch Sonja because she is trying so hard to project an image of being a successful, put-together, happy, and confident woman, when she is none of those things. I don't think she is inherently mean/evil (a la Kim Richards), but she seems insecure. Going from being at the "top" with the marriage to Old Man Morgan to where she is now is quite a drop in stature and it has certainly done a number on her.

Sonja's disintegration stems from the poor decisions she has made since the divorce. The judgment against her lies because she was found to have actually defrauded people. Her inability to confront reality is a refusal to take responsibility for that mess. She has been driven mad but her madness was self-created; she is like the lady in Blue Jasmine, whose empire collapsed because she dropped a dime in a moment of spite. The ripple effect drew her into the whirlpool. She is not Blanche du Bois even remotely, she is not a creative tender dreamer, she is someone whose downfall is her own doing. She can't face that, so she retreats.

She was just fine until she lost her money.

[MissMel]

Okay? I couldn't disagree more. I would rather be 20 lbs "overweight" than have a body like Carole's. Especially if the weight is in the right places. It's all about hip to waist ratio in beauty and health.

I'd rather be 20 pounds overweight, too. I'm not. I have a body like Carole's. I hate to leave my house because of it. You should see what I eat! I try to pack on a few pounds but, nope. Still skinny. (I say this with a laugh because really? There's not much a person can do in the situation. It is what it is)

[FamilyVan]

All that Carole has going for her is that she is a good 50 pounds lighter than most of her peers.  She has no ass, no boobs and an OK face.  That to me is not a great body.  But Carole may have body issues where she thinks the key to being attractive is being thin.  I mean is she is making digs at Ramona for not being able to fit in her clothes, uh, yikes.  Ramona has an amazing body and rocks a bikini well in her 50's - please I WISH I will look as good in my 50's as Ramona.  If I was Carole I would eat a few Ring Dings.

[archer1267]

[LuAnn] did not look all that comfortable on WWHL tonight, something was off with her IMO.

 

 

Agreed. After her Tweets during Carole's WWHL appearance, I expected Lu to be loaded for bear. Instead, she seemed pretty ill at ease. I was surprised that she admitted to going overboard and regretted a couple of her comments. I'm still not really buying this angle of Carole breaking up an active relationship, though. LuAnn mentioned Noel's 18th birthday in September, noting that Adam and Nicole had attended the birthday party together - and that was supposed to be proof that they were still a couple right up to filming. 

 

She also admitted that she gets upset with Carole over something that we haven't yet seen, so maybe this niece/Adam stuff was just a way for her to get her digs in early and often while working up to the grand explosion.

 

She was wearing a dress from her collection and while it wasn't to my taste, she wore it well and it's retailing for under $60 (Sonja, take note). I've got to wonder if LuAnn realized that going on a rant about people's infidelity is just going to open the door for people bringing up her indiscretion in St. Barth's, and that's why she's got regrets.

[chlban]

I started to get a Kim Richards vibe from Sonja this episode and recoiled when she flashed her cooch to the world.  If this season ends up being focused totally on Sonja's delusions I'm out!  I had enough of "let's poke the bear" with RHBH and Kim Richards, I can't take it with Sonja.  I feel like Bethenny.  It's just too much!  The sound of her name is starting to grate on my nerves already.

I am glad I am not the only one that had this feeling. It's not exactly news that Sonja is delusional but delusional really jumped the shark last night. Partying with Madonna and JFK Jr. who has been dead for almost 16 years? Wow. Not funny at all, just sad.

 

My Housewives are being ruined. All of them.  This started out as mostly mindless entertainment. Snark of the superficial famewhores of OC, N.Y. Beverly Hills. Simultaneously enjoy and envy the house porn. Not exactly deep, but fun.

 

Now Beverly Hills has turned into Intervention, the "star" of NJ is doing jail time and now we are going to watch Sonja dissolve into complete mental illness? Maybe it's just me, but this isn't what I signed up for with these shows.

 

I can enjoy good drama and am still reeling from Mad Men on Sunday night. The difference is, those are fictional characters, no matter how invested I may be in them. These women are real. I want to snark on them without feeling guilty about it. I can do that with Vanderpump Rules and Southern Charm. I want to do it with the Howives, but if BRAVO continues to deny me that pleasure, I'm out.

 

I have been BRAVO's bitch for a long time now, but I gave up New Jersey two seasons ago and only watched the first two episodes of Atlanta this year before giving that one up. I will not be back for Beverly Hills if Kim Richards and Brandi are.  Do not make me give up New York too. It's cruel.

 

But then, it's also cruel to televise Sonja's descent into insanity. 

 

BTW. No one that actually knew  John Kennedy Jr. ever called him John-John. Not as a child and certainly not as an adult. That was actually a creation of the press.  That alone told me she likely never met him much less partied with him, even 16 years ago. 

Edited May 13, 2015 by chlban

[Higgins]

I'd rather be 20 pounds overweight, too. I'm not. I have a body like Carole's. I hate to leave my house because of it. You should see what I eat! I try to pack on a few pounds but, nope. Still skinny. (I say this with a laugh because really? There's not much a person can do in the situation. It is what it is)

You probably don't brag about cucumber and vodka diet either or what a great ass you have just like I don't brag about my ( non existent) long ass legs.

Edited May 13, 2015 by Higgins

[slitz]

There was a lot in this episode.  That TH with Heather will get swept to the wayside because Sonja and Bethenny's parts were so compelling tonight. But yeah, I'll have to rewatch that and come back later.  But twice tonight I remember thinking, "What a raging bitch." The first time it was that TH with Heather and then when Luann told Ramona at the restaurant how much better she was without Mario.  It wasn't just what she said - it was the smug laughter and shoulder shrugging and hair tossing. Made me want to stand up and smash a glass on the table.

 

Thank you!  Seriously, what happened to the cool Luann from last season?  I want her back!  For all her talk about how Ramona was so mean to her during her divorce (and Ramona did say some truly horrible things, there's no denying that), she's no angel either.  She has managed to get in some pretty hurtful digs to Ramona as well, in my opinion.  If you're really better than that Countess, you wouldn't be doing it.

[Higgins]

Thank you!  Seriously, what happened to the cool Luann from last season?  I want her back!  For all her talk about how Ramona was so mean to her during her divorce (and Ramona did say some truly horrible things, there's no denying that), she's no angel either.  She has managed to get in some pretty hurtful digs to Ramona as well, in my opinion.  If you're really better than that Countess, you wouldn't be doing it.

Bravo illusion. She never existed.

[Duke2801]

That's certainly possible (and it all fell flat in the delivery perhaps). But I think she was more than half serious, given that she does publicly speak highly of her body -- might be less tongue-in-cheek and more face-up-her-own-ass:

 

The honoree paired one of her favorite dresses from her closet with a Chanel coat for the evening. "I'm blessed," Radziwill told Us. "God gave me a whole bunch of other issues, but my body is good."

 http://www.usmagazine.com/celebrity-news/news/carole-radziwill-on-thin-bod-i-have-a-crazy-metabolism-2012139#ixzz3ZzRjMaH6

 

Heaven forbid there be a middle aged woman who isn't criticizing her body.  And should she actually say she likes her body?!  OMG detain her and cart her un-fabulous ass off to Humility School tout de suite!

 

As far as inner ugliness, I'm going to have to side with Bethenny.  (Hell hath frozen over.)  I don't think there's a mean bone in Sonja's body.  She's sad and disorganized and is probably abusing booze and pills.  But she is no Kim Richards.  Now, that's what ugly insides looks like.

 

 

She might not be a Mean Girl/Queen Bee, but that's only because she's too self-involved to even notice the "worker bees."  Her narcissism and delusion are more sad and pathetic than outright ugly.

I liked Kristen's mismatched shoes. Was really cute, imo

 

 

She was pulling them off! If I, on the other hand, had attempted such a fashion maneuver, I have no doubt I'd end up looking more Bozo the Clown than High Fashion.

 

Ramona bitches at the driver, questioning how thorough he was loading their luggage, then when he's dealing with the luggage, she's shrieking about the wine opener. I just can't feel sorry for her, divorce and all.

 

LOL yeah she's still mostly terrible.  Like 95% terrible as opposed to her past season 100. 

 

The saddest for me was when Dorinda finally got her back in the suite, Sonja went straight for the bar and started opening yet another bottle of liquor. She had been drinking all day and was completely toasted, yet she doesn't want to stop.

 

 

I need to re-watch that scene again.  I could have sworn it was Dorinda opening the bottle.  And I remember thinking how strange that was.  Or did Sonja attempt to open the bottle first, and Dorinda was "helping" her? 

[Grneyedldy]

Right. It's a low bar, but Sonja can at least say she never got so wasted that she kicked a police officer.

Yet! Actually Sonja WAS arrested in the Hamptons for DUI (after the first season ended iirc) she just didn't try to kick the policeman. Knowing Sonja though I'm sure she flirted like hell.

Edited May 13, 2015 by Grneyedldy

[archer1267]

But Carole may have body issues where she thinks the key to being attractive is being thin.

 

 

Yes. A large part of it may be age and the insecurity that comes with that. When I look at pics from Carole in her 30s, she doesn't seem at all glamorous. I find myself increasingly comparing myself to women my age whereas I never did before. I catch myself doing it and I don't like it.  I pride myself on looking youthful but know that part of that is from having extra adipose tissue! I never thought I'd care about aging but it does definitely bring up certain issues around metabolism, skin, hair texture changing, etc. I'm definitely spending more money on skin care products and makeup than I did in my 20s and 30s. I don't blame Carole - or any of these women - for focusing on that or priding themselves on looking good for their age. (Ramona's been self-praising since S1, and nothing wrong with that.) 

 

Where Carole lives, too, it's a whole different ball game in terms of expectations of being svelte and fashionable. Many New York and LA women still believe that you can never be too rich or too thin. And if you're single, even moreso. 

 

I think Carole's crack about her ass goes back to St. Barth's, when Sonja said "check out the ass on Carole! No wonder Clooney did [dated?] her for a year." I don't think the "check out my great ass" comment came out of nowhere.

[MissMel]

You probably don't brag about cucumber and vodka diet either or what a great ass you have just like I don't brag about my ( non existent) long ass legs.

Haha! I've still got the long legs. Covered in crepey skin and a bunch of visible veins. My ass hasn't recovered from turning 31. Me thinks Carole should shut her trap about those things. It's not cute and she's older than me!

Edited May 13, 2015 by MissMel

[Duke2801]

Actually five year olds have to pee less than older women. I can only speak for myself, but once I was alongside of fifty, the urgency feels greater. So having to go doesn't feel able to put off.

These women are larely fifty and beyond.

And pee is sterile, not gross. It can even be medicinal.

Compared to some of the nastiness we see on these shows, a physically necessary universal act like peeing is humanizing, not disgusting, imo.

 

Right.  Not to mention they were drinking alcohol. Which is a diuretic and increases the urgency to pee. 

[SFoster21]

Yes. A large part of it may be age and the insecurity that comes with that. When I look at pics from Carole in her 30s, she doesn't seem at all glamorous. I find myself increasingly comparing myself to women my age whereas I never did before. I catch myself doing it and I don't like it. I pride myself on looking youthful but know that part of that is from having extra adipose tissue! I never thought I'd care about aging but it does definitely bring up certain issues around metabolism, skin, hair texture changing, etc. I'm definitely spending more money on skin care products and makeup than I did in my 20s and 30s. I don't blame Carole - or any of these women - for focusing on that or priding themselves on looking good for their age. (Ramona's been self-praising since S1, and nothing wrong with that.)

Where Carole lives, too, it's a whole different ball game in terms of expectations of being svelte and fashionable. Many New York and LA women still believe that you can never be too rich or too thin. And if you're single, even moreso.

I think Carole's crack about her ass goes back to St. Barth's, when Sonja said "check out the ass on Carole! No wonder Clooney did [dated?] her for a year." I don't think the "check out my great ass" comment came out of nowhere.

These women, for all their talk of "career" and "independence" are the least liberated of women. They still measure their worth based on their desirability to men. They dress for men, short skirts, cleavage, long hair, elaborate makeup.

That's why Carole hated LuAnn on sight. Genes alone give you a slender body that doesn't look like a concentration camp victim and unlined skin pushing fifty. Not to mention her height and posture. In that race, LuAnn will always be the winner.

If you are using creams in your thirties and forties, boy are you late. Should have been night creaming since adolescence. (Just my unsolicited opinion gleaned from the fashion mags of my youth.)

[jaync]

Sonja gets plastered at an event, acts the fool, and babbles senselessly. And?

 

Those who are really smart and self-aware don't need to say that they're smart and self-aware.

 

She got bent out of shape about Carole's dig against her, and she DID turn around and do the same thing to Sonja. oh, but she didn't want to hear that. Bitch.

Yep, and she ragged the others for having an argument, but then tried to resurrect said argument - twice - after it had been put to rest. Bitch and a hypocrite.

I've grown way tired of Beth and her ever-moving massive jaws and bad hair getting so much screen time. And, next week she gets a Very Special Episode. Fucking yay.

 

LOL at LuAnn backtracking on WWHL.

Edited May 13, 2015 by jaync

[ghoulina]

Yes! Between B and Sonja's non-stop talking over each other back and forth I was reminded of my five year old who Never! Stops! Talking! Ever!!!!

A few scenes later B said that Sonja reminded her of a 4 year old so that made me LOL!

 

Not only is Sonja just like a child with her inability to hold an adult conversation - you know, actually listening and replying when the other person is done? But she actually reminds me of my three-year-old who is on the spectrum and has some behavioral issues. That kid is stubborn. If she says a cow is a "horse", it's a horse, damnit. Nothing you say or do can change that. I've taught her older brothers to just agree with what she says and walk away, because it's futile to argue with her. Same thing applies to Sonja. I'd be all, "Yup, you were the queen of PR, sailing around Telluride on Diddy's yacht with John John Kennedy. Got it. Who's up for slots?"

 

, she even told them to wait in the limo at one point so I think it was there,

 

I don't think the limo was there the entire time. It pulled up as the girls were standing outside. And, from what they said, they had already been waiting quite awhile. I'm not sure WHY the limo wasn't there. Did the girls arrive early? Did the limo arrive late? Apparently Beth alerted Sonja she was coming late because of drop-off issues with Brynn. Is it possible that when Sonja heard this she told the limo to arrive later, but didn't inform the other women? It's still a bit confusing, but I do not think the limo was there the entire time, and Sonja really should have allowed the women access to at least one room of her house, so they weren't standing on the cold, wet corner. 

[jimene79]

Seeing lots of comments about Carole thinking too highly of her figure.  Personally, I think everyone should think highly of their bodies.  Lots of money is being made on the notion that there is something wrong with women's bodies and they keep inventing more issues for women to be insecure about.  To me, a woman who is unapologetically proud of her body is a great thing.

[JennyMominFL]

If you are using creams in your thirties and forties, boy are you late. Should have been night creaming since adolescence. (Just my unsolicited opinion gleaned from the fashion mags of my youth.)

I'm 45 and I have pretty awesome skin, always have. Knock on wood. I use absolutely nothing. I have just started too but only because I read the same magazines as you,lol

  Now my hair is a nightmare and always have been, so I am only so lucky.

Edited May 13, 2015 by JennyMominFL

[Mondrianyone]

Can we please start a PTV football team so I can be snatch guard?  (I guess Carole would be the tight end.)

 

I'll say something good about Sonja--when she was on WWHL a few weeks ago, I noticed, not for the first time, that she has the most excellent posture.  Beautiful shoulders, too.

 

I hate all this sniping about other women's bodies, no matter which side of the weight/age fence it's coming from.  As long as we keep doing that to ourselves and each other, we don't need to worry about men holding us back.

 

[TheFinalRose]

Sonja's disintegration stems from the poor decisions she has made since the divorce. The judgment against her lies because she was found to have actually defrauded people. Her inability to confront reality is a refusal to take responsibility for that mess. She has been driven mad but her madness was self-created; she is like the lady in Blue Jasmine, whose empire collapsed because she dropped a dime in a moment of spite. The ripple effect drew her into the whirlpool. She is not Blanche du Bois even remotely, she is not a creative tender dreamer, she is someone whose downfall is her own doing. She can't face that, so she retreats.

 

She was just fine until she lost her money.

 

 

 

This is Sonja in a nutshell. Kudoooz to you SFoster 21! How different she would be if she got real about her judgement and said I was play acting like a big-time negotiator but I didn't have thirty years of experience doing it, like old man Morgan did, and I screwed up and ruined my finances.  I can imagine when the cameras are off she deeply regrets naively playing around in the shark-infested Hollywood waters and she got bit in the butt big time.  Except for that one major mistake she might have been all right financially. That's what she really regrets, but as Bethenney said it's time to MOVE ON.   

 

What irks about Sonja is the celebrity and location name-dropping! Good grief, in her social group why does she still do that? All those women have had brushes with celebrity (Carole!) but you can't build your identity on it.  I would think being around celebrities de-sensitizes you to them; you see that they are still human, and usually flawed to the nth degree, and not any kind of a big deal. Which makes me think Sonja is experiencing some kind of psychic split, at least when the cameras roll, that is. I truly wonder what she is like on a non filming day. I suspect much more likable. 

[archer1267]

I suspect if it wasn't Carole saying it, many viewers wouldn't have an issue with it, Jimene79.

[slitz]

I'm not sure if you're a male or female scoobie, but after child birth a lot of women have a hard time holding it.

 

Hell I can't even cough or sneeze now without peeing a little bit.  I wish someone had told me about that little present from giving birth!  lol

[ZaldamoWilder]

She's trying too hard.

 

 

The conversations between Sonja and Bethenny were exasperating. I could understand Beth's reaction over Sonja repeating herself over and over. I deal with that everyday with my mother-in-law. However, my MIL is 95 years old and has no short-term memory to speak of, so she has an excuse. I find it painful to watch Sonja because she is trying so hard to project an image of being a successful, put-together, happy, and confident woman, when she is none of those things. I don't think she is inherently mean/evil (a la Kim Richards), but she seems insecure. Going from being at the "top" with the marriage to Old Man Morgan to where she is now is quite a drop in stature and it has certainly done a number on her.

 

See this is gonna sound totally bonkers but I understand it completely.  I HATE verbal repetition.  Maybe any repetition that I deem non necessary (because someone pressing an already lit elevator button will force me into a confrontation).  I get what she was saying here and I get what you're saying because in cases where, like with your MIL, it can't be helped, then you sit and take it.  I can only do this with people who have obvious memory impairments or very small children.  Thing is Beth knows this about herself and still stays in a conversation with a drunk, that's just silly.

 

The stature thing - do ya'll think it's insensitive that Bethenney said she needs to be over it by now?  How long has this gone on now, 10 years?  More importantly, why is she so torn up that she needs to stay perpendicular drunk every damn time they go out?  No shade to lunch hostesses but why is this woman having trouble "adjusting" to having to live on a $3M settlement?  

Edited May 13, 2015 by ZaldamoWilder

[TheFinalRose]

That's why Carole hated LuAnn on sight. Genes alone give you a slender body that doesn't look like a concentration camp victim and unlined skin pushing fifty. Not to mention her height and posture. In that race, LuAnn will always be the winner.

 

 

Love this! IMO LuAnn presents herself beautifully, and it seems effortlessly, too, although I'm sure she works at it. Maybe it's her short hair? She does not give off the "trying to recapture my youth" vibe which bugs me about Carole.

 

This is what I don't like about Carole: she doesn't work; she doesn't cook; she doesn't have anyone that she takes care of -- a pet or even a fish. We've never seen her family as part of her everyday life -- what does she really do with herself all day?  I don't think her life is as glamorous or as full as she wants you to believe, and I think she's kind of grasping now.  This season was filmed after The Widow's Guide came out, and I think the cool reception to the book might have thrown her into "I'm a hot chick" identity mode to replace the "I'm a sought after novelist" identity she had since she came on the show.  

[Trooper York]

Does a snatch guard stop you from sneezing on it?

[MissMel]

I suspect if it wasn't Carole saying it, many viewers wouldn't have an issue with it, Jimene79.

This is just it. It's one thing to celebrate yourself, even at an older age. It's another thing to deny it. My ass was great for more than 20 years ago. It's not now and I'm old enough to not care.

Carole has more accomplishments than I can ever dream of. She might want to stick with those.

Edited May 13, 2015 by MissMel

[Trooper York]

Can you spray snatch guard on your carpet so if Sonja sits down and scoots across the floor it can stay fresh?

[islandgal140]

That was a lot in an hour, but a slow hour at the same time, which is not to say that I didn't enjoy the episode.

 

I am going to believe Kristen on this. According to her blog post:

 

 

There was no car in sight, so we go into Sonja’s house, hoping for a warm welcome and to be able to chill inside until she is ready and all the girls arrive. Well, it turns out it was colder inside Sonja’s house than it was outside, because she refused to let us in and asked us to lug all of our suitcases and bags and go and wait at the Starbucks on the corner, instead. This made absolutely no sense. She has this huge townhouse in which she lives alone, and of course her interns, and she asked us to meet her there, and now we have to go and wait around the corner at Starbucks, because she’s running late and behind schedule.

 

If I was Heather, I would have been livid too. So if Sonja told them to go to Starbucks than she must have known that the car wasn't there.  I know B has said and others have agreed that Sonja isn't cruel and doesn't have a mean bone in her body but I disagree.  Sonja may not plot and plan, she may not intend to do harm, but her level of self involvement and lack of care for others sometimes can and does amount to hurting others just as much as if she had intentionally stuck out her foot to trip someone. 

 

Another thing that I find hard to believe is that Sonja is claiming that her $7M lawsuit is what's preventing her from moving on from her ex.  Nah.  I think even if she settled that thing tomorrow, she'd find something else to blame for still being hung up on him.  She's the queen of excuses.  And really, I don't think she misses him as much as she misses being Mrs. John Morgan with endless money and connections. 

 

The saddest scene I have ever seen featuring Sonja was a few seasons ago when she was going to what she thought was a final divorce settlement meeting where she believed there would be a sit down meet and greet with Old Man Morgan, whom I don't believe she had seen in ages. She was just so hopeful and happy and thought that everything would be alright. She was making sure to dress the way he liked and wear her hair and makeup the way he liked.  She really gave the impression that she thought that if she could just sit down in a room with him alone for a few moments and talk, that all her problems would be solved. I can't say if she thought they would get back together or Morgan would write her a check to make all her financial troubles go away. Ramona was there as she prepped and you could tell that Ramona didn't believe it for a moment but didn't want to burst her bubble. Well, Sonja came back from that meeting completely deflated. I can't remember if he didn't show, or if he was in the building and just didn't want to see her. The upshot was that Sonja didn't get to see him. All her high hopes were dashed. At that point, at crazy as it seemed I did think she thought maybe they would get back together if only she could see him, be alone with him and talk with him.

 

Sonja is delusion central. When the Countess has the most accurate psychological profile of you, your ass got a problem.

 

I was a bit surprised by B calling out Sonja's mix of alcohol and pills. 

 

I need to use the term "snatch guard" sometime in my life. 

 

I guess I am old fashion, but I think Ramona should have seen her BFF to her room.  You can't on the one hand say you love to party with them, and then hate to see them when they get drunk because you can't tell me that drunk isn't the usual for Sonja with a "J" by night's end.

 

But for Carole's other try hard antics this season, the t-shirt and ears would have been a fun and whimsical touch in AC. Hickies, really? 

Edited May 13, 2015 by islandgal140

[charmed1]

And in the morning, Starbucks is notoriously packed and hostile. Nobody wants to sit on a stool balancing luggage while next to some weirdo on his laptop until God knows when.

[archer1267]

I can't remember if he didn't show, or if he was in the building and just didn't want to see her.

 

 

He was in a different room and refused to see her. I thought that was cold, given that they have a child together. Speaking of Quincy, wasn't she at boarding school during filming? I didn't understand this big to-do over Sonja getting her sister to fly from Nashville to babysit. Her daughter's a student at the Taft School in Watertown, CT.

[Mozelle]

Seeing lots of comments about Carole thinking too highly of her figure.  Personally, I think everyone should think highly of their bodies.  Lots of money is being made on the notion that there is something wrong with women's bodies and they keep inventing more issues for women to be insecure about.  To me, a woman who is unapologetically proud of her body is a great thing.

 

So, this will probably sound like a weird comparison, but maybe three or four years ago, some guy got a "study" published in Psychology Today. It was all about scientifically proving that Black women are not attractive, and on top of that, since we were scientifically/biologically unattractive, it's non-sensical for Black women, on average, to have such high esteem about our looks and/or our bodies. Like, he took time out of his life to "study" this and a magazine actually published it. For me, it boiled down to this guy not being able to find Black women attractive, and since he didn't think we were attractive, how could we dare think highly of ourselves.

 

I feel like that's what's going on with this Carole topic, ya know? She's too skinny. She has an overbite. EYE think she's unattractive...so, how dare she believe herself attractive and beautiful?

 

This is just it. It's one thing to celebrate yourself, even at an older age. It's another thing to deny it. My ass was great for more than 20 years ago. It's not now and I'm old enough to not care.

Carole has more accomplishments than I can ever dream of. She might want to stick with those.

 

I think Carole talked about her accomplishments during her first season. She certainly mentioned them last season during that whole dust-up with Aviva (it's also part of her Twitter bio, apparently), and Carole was taken to task for mentioning them. She can't talk about her body. She can't talk about her accomplishments. She also can't talk about her marriage because then she's somehow dropping a tenuous connection to the Kennedys. 

Edited May 13, 2015 by Mozelle

[robroy]

Okay, let's start with foyer-gate. I'm confused. Heather kept saying they were made to wait in the foyer, yet we see them all huddled outside. Does foyer mean something different in NY? Were they allowed in the building or not?

 

Sonja's house has a bit of an odd layout. Typically you enter a townhouse by walking up a half flight of stairs to a stoop and entry hall that is on the 1st floor (which is really the second floor above ground with the ground level floor being considered a garden or basement level.) Sonja's house instead has a step down from the side yard to a little court then a step down into an open loggia (which I imagine was once enclosed space) and then enters into a ground level entry. So I am assuming that open loggia is what Heather means by foyer. That layout might work better for entertaining since a crowd of people who are being met at the door spill into a covered area instead of a stoop or sidewalk and the entry, living room and rear yard are all on one level which is not typical. But its also wonky since you enter on one level and go up a level to the kitchen the yard is adjacent to the most formal area.

 

And on that note- I find it bizarre Sonja can't keep at least the entry, living room and half bath that comprise the entirety of the first floor clean. What would the Rockerfellers say?

[MatildaMoody]

Seeing lots of comments about Carole thinking too highly of her figure.  Personally, I think everyone should think highly of their bodies.  Lots of money is being made on the notion that there is something wrong with women's bodies and they keep inventing more issues for women to be insecure about.  To me, a woman who is unapologetically proud of her body is a great thing.

 

 

I agree. I also think that it is especially important to think highly of your body when it does not fit whatever beauty standards are prevalent. The fact that someone who is stick thin like Carole could be super proud of her body and shape in the world where everyone is trying to look like a Kardashian is a great and refreshing thing to me. There is already so much body shaming out there, that being proud of your body no matter what size should be applauded and not denigrated for not having enough humility. Women spend their entire lives making comments about their bodies in a backwards notion of "this is how I show that I have humility and am humble and not a braggart." In actuality, they are practicing self hate so that others don't hate them first. 

[The Solution]

I'm kind of loving Doritos. She's constantly like "WTF did I get myself into with these broads?" and can't hide it. And so far,

 

 

Well, John-John's dead so that's difficult.

 

is the line of the season so far for me, followed closely by Bethenny's

 

 

I've seen the pyramids. ... How ya like me NOW?

 

I will never cease to be amused by Bethenny's half-a-wiseguy appropriation of street slang. Plus, I think grinchy hearts everywhere grew three sizes after seeing Bethenny's treatment of Sonja last night.

[Higgins]

Heaven forbid there be a middle aged woman who isn't criticizing her body.  And should she actually say she likes her body?!  OMG detain her and cart her un-fabulous ass off to Humility School tout de suite!

 

 

She might not be a Mean Girl/Queen Bee, but that's only because she's too self-involved to even notice the "worker bees."  Her narcissism and delusion are more sad and pathetic than outright ugly.

 

She was pulling them off! If I, on the other hand, had attempted such a fashion maneuver, I have no doubt I'd end up looking more Bozo the Clown than High Fashion.

 

LOL yeah she's still mostly terrible.  Like 95% terrible as opposed to her past season 100. 

 

 

I need to re-watch that scene again.  I could have sworn it was Dorinda opening the bottle.  And I remember thinking how strange that was.  Or did Sonja attempt to open the bottle first, and Dorinda was "helping" her? 

There is a difference between being critical of your body and bragging while cutting down others who are perfectly fit and in fact incredibly fit for being nearly 60 years old.

[Duke2801]

There is a difference between being critical of your body and bragging while cutting down others who are perfectly fit and in fact incredibly fit for being nearly 60 years old.

 

Who was she cutting down in this specific episode? 

[Higgins]

It wasn't in this episode.

[bichonblitz]

The problem is not Carole thinking too highly of her body. The problem is that she talks about it too much. Love your body all you want, just don't shove it down our throats. Oh, and why exactly is her skinny ass so magnificent? I thought the JLo and Kardashian ass was what was in at the moment. 

 

On to Bethenny. Since when has she been elected the all intelligent voice of reason? Her life is in shambles. She is clearly a very unhappy woman who has made alot of mistakes over the last few years. She got lucky and made millions off of some awful tasting Margherita mix. And she is still miserable. It's just a matter of time before she becomes totally disgusted wasting her time trying to help Sonja. She's only doing it because I'm sure BRAVO assigned her with that storyline. You know she really "doesn't care", as she has repeatedly reminded us and group of women on the show. It obvious she in not enjoying one second of being back. I just can't stand that manic, nervous, twitchy bitch.