Give The Devil His Due: Lucifer In The Media

[HunterHunted]

24 minutes ago, Maherjunkie said:

Should we protest?

Protest what? A cancellation that was rightfully earned. Or a dumb showrunner who ran the show into the ground. The latter yes, the former no.

[Featherhat]

7 hours ago, CheshireCat said:

Maybe the ratings would have been better if they had read and gone by other comments than the fangirl comments on twitter.

Hey, don't just blame fangirls, by which I guess you mean "Deckerstar" shippers. This show failed in about 50 other ways as well this season. I didn't like the romance but I also thought the rest of the writing had a noticeable drop in quality and characterisation. There was also plenty of shippy moments in S2 and even to a lesser extent S1. 

For me the absolute worst was Ella. She went from overly quirky but a recognisable adult to being an insult to 12 year olds if I called her that in all aspects of her character. Luci still had his moments occasionally, she never did. Also Pierce was a bad choice to base the season around, even if he'd never been a part of the love triangle. 

[CheshireCat]

15 minutes ago, Featherhat said:

Hey, don't just blame fangirls, by which I guess you mean "Deckerstar" shippers.

I mean the fans who seem to be unable to like a show and still be critical of it. In other words, the fans in the eyes of who the show can't do anything wrong (and/or can't do anything wrong as long as there is Deckerstar).  

[CheshireCat]

Recap and interview with Henderson. https://tvline.com/2018/05/14/lucifer-recap-season-3-episode-24-series-finale-chloe-sees-devil-face/

Reading what the season/character development had been intended to be, I think that a full season order was too much to handle for TPTB. I can't remember when they learned about the full season order but they should have adjusted their plans and let the reveal happen earlier and not fill up the season with a whole lot of "dead air".

In hindsight, I also think that Fox is in part to blame because their episode order is the reason why they had too many episodes this season and they weren't helping.

[RinaX]

11 minutes ago, CheshireCat said:

Recap and interview with Henderson. https://tvline.com/2018/05/14/lucifer-recap-season-3-episode-24-series-finale-chloe-sees-devil-face/

Reading what the season/character development had been intended to be, I think that a full season order was too much to handle for TPTB. I can't remember when they learned about the full season order but they should have adjusted their plans and let the reveal happen earlier and not fill up the season with a whole lot of "dead air".

In hindsight, I also think that Fox is in part to blame because their episode order is the reason why they had too many episodes this season and they weren't helping.

Even the "dead air" episodes could have been better by just writing the characters naturally and not side-tracking into all of the silly out-of-character stuff.

[wilnil]

It probably didn't happen that way, but if part of the problem with the season's crappy pacing was some network suit urging the producers "Don't start the season with the big reveal, leave it till the end at least -- shaking up the show's premise is risky!" I'll be doubly annoyed with Fox.

[ProudMary]

This is definitely cool.  I'm sure that the extra episodes will at least appear on the S3 DVD.

[jhlipton]

34 minutes ago, ProudMary said:

This is definitely cool.  I'm sure that the extra episodes will at least appear on the S3 DVD.

If by "cool", you mean "completely unacceptable and icky", then I agree.  First, because there should be no voice of God; second because it should be John Lithgow or Larraquette or other other distinguished actor and third because Gaiman is a sexist, racist slug.

On 5/11/2018 at 3:37 PM, Twilight Man said:

Out of all the TV shows that deserved a TV movie to resolve its cliffhanger, you give one to ALF????

Sense8 is also getting a wrap-up movie.

[Delphi]

Honestly,  now that I think about it.   I really don't think it's a great choice on Fox's behalf.   This season hasn't been great,  I have yet to see the finale.   But for some reason networks seem to think that second year slumps are to be expected while third year means the show has run its course and if that logic were sound there would be plenty of shows that I watch that would've been cancelled. 

I think separating the show from Gotham forthe inhumans was a huge mistake.   I think giving them more episodes was a mistake,  because they saw Lucifer as profitable and wanted to profit which is obvious since they keep having them film and write burner episodes for the next season, that misfire is on fox, you want more screen time then we planned for and then get shook when there are episodes that went no where..shocker. 

I can not just blame the writing when to be honest,  we're here posting because we might be a bit obsessed with television.   The regular audience for these shows is not us. They all seem to enjoy the hell out of the show still. 

[Pindrop]

All I know is that euthanasia is sometimes the kindest option. This season felt like wheel-spinning.

• Half of the characters stagnated and the other half became one-note caricatures of their former selves, or simply slipped so far out-of-character so as to be unrecognisable.
• Nothing happened for entire episodes, then the plot would suddenly leap forward in the most trite and trope-ish manner (a love triangle, again, over a character that sucks all the fun out of the show- really?). The pacing was all over the place.
• The cast was bloated and there were too many pointless B, C and Z plots that no-one cares about, or cameo appearances with no purpose.

I will miss what this show was in seasons one and two, but this season; good riddance.

Edited May 15, 2018 by Pindrop

[Gigi43]

For all the #SaveLucifer on social media the episode did about 3.2 million viewers and 0.8 in the demo which is better than last week but not a huge increase. The Resident still did better afterwards. Even if people read spoilers numbers mather most. Once the show hit 0.6 and stopped showing, up on biggest  DVR increase I figured it was gone since it's just a little more than half way to the 100 episode mark (unlike Gotham which is so close of course WB was able to manage it even though it was almost gone.) Unless the show is huge overseas since there was no huge number increase to at least 1.0 I will be completely floored if anyone buys it.

[tennisgurl]

18 hours ago, jhlipton said:

third because Gaiman is a sexist, racist slug.

Ummmm, you wanna elaborate on that? Because, while I've certainly heard complaints about some of his books not being sufficiently woke (like basically anything else) I've never heard of him being described in such harsh terms. Did he say something I am unaware of?

I honestly dont know why the networks continue to act like its still 1998 when it comes to the ratings systems. Maybe it wouldn't have made much of a difference with Lucifer, but its bizarre to me that they seem to operate so much based on the old standard ratings, when so much of TV is watched on line or through streaming now. Heck, with Netflix and other streaming services putting out so much content, and Peak TV allowing so many shows from lesser known networks to shine, they should be happy to get the ratings they do dealing with the network crap they do, if thats all they look at. I know they do look at streaming and social media buzz, but this cancellation season really proves that they're underestimating an online audience. 

[Gigi43]

Ratings are SO much lower these days than the standards of say 10yrs ago it's insane. It's not entirely that people are watching in different ways it's too that people have so many options of what to watch that everything gets lower. Im sure thats had to impact the bottom line of revenue and advertising.  So much focus  is on ownership to the point I'm not entirely sure why networks are bothering buy shows not made in house because it really needs to be a hit to survive. On the flip side owned shows can get by easily Elementary's ratings are terrible but CBS managed to sell it in syndication for an insane amount of money years ago so producing more episodes gives them all the profit of that.  Lucifer maybe could have gotten by if it was owned by Fox.

[Mabinogia]

1 hour ago, tennisgurl said:

I honestly dont know why the networks continue to act like its still 1998 when it comes to the ratings systems. Maybe it wouldn't have made much of a difference with Lucifer, but its bizarre to me that they seem to operate so much based on the old standard ratings, when so much of TV is watched on line or through streaming now. Heck, with Netflix and other streaming services putting out so much content, and Peak TV allowing so many shows from lesser known networks to shine, they should be happy to get the ratings they do dealing with the network crap they do, if thats all they look at. I know they do look at streaming and social media buzz, but this cancellation season really proves that they're underestimating an online audience. 

Because it doesn't matter how many people see the show, it matters how many people see the commercials and live, on network TV is still where the advertisers are looking. It all boils down to the advertisers. If advertisers aren't interested in buying time on a show, the show is going to be pulled. 

[CheshireCat]

1 hour ago, tennisgurl said:

I honestly dont know why the networks continue to act like its still 1998 when it comes to the ratings systems. Maybe it wouldn't have made much of a difference with Lucifer, but its bizarre to me that they seem to operate so much based on the old standard ratings, when so much of TV is watched on line or through streaming now. Heck, with Netflix and other streaming services putting out so much content, and Peak TV allowing so many shows from lesser known networks to shine, they should be happy to get the ratings they do dealing with the network crap they do, if thats all they look at. I know they do look at streaming and social media buzz, but this cancellation season really proves that they're underestimating an online audience. 

Fox was actually the first network to announce that they'll stop circulating the live+same day ratings and instead would also take the other numbers into account http://deadline.com/2015/11/fox-live-same-day-ratings-stop-1201631918/ (And wow, that was in 2015? I could have sworn it was at least a year later. I'm getting old! ;-))

It might have changed with the Disney takeover or they were just cleaning house.

[tennisgurl]

I suppose it looks like Fox is just cleaning house, and wants to give some new pilots a try, and is hoping they do better than the bubble shows they already have/had. And to do that, I guess they have to get rid of some of the old shows. 

[BooBear]

3 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

I suppose it looks like Fox is just cleaning house, and wants to give some new pilots a try, and is hoping they do better than the bubble shows they already have/had. And to do that, I guess they have to get rid of some of the old shows. 

What frustrates me is that there seems to be so much junk on Netflix and Hulu (truly they seem to have green lighted everything pitched) you would think they would pick up every show that a network passed on because it has a built in audience. Even if they had to cut back on the show's budget.  Also I feel like they already have these shows anyway and completing them in a satisfying way makes for a product they can sell for years... rather than a half completed series forever. 

[CheshireCat]

20 minutes ago, BooBear said:

What frustrates me is that there seems to be so much junk on Netflix and Hulu (truly they seem to have green lighted everything pitched) you would think they would pick up every show that a network passed on because it has a built in audience. Even if they had to cut back on the show's budget.

Well, that's an easy fix: let Chloe be completely freaked out and move away. They can then focus on the celestial aspect, let Lucifer be the devil and have one less actor to pay. Win-win-win ;-)

[RinaX]

1 hour ago, BooBear said:

What frustrates me is that there seems to be so much junk on Netflix and Hulu (truly they seem to have green lighted everything pitched) you would think they would pick up every show that a network passed on because it has a built in audience. Even if they had to cut back on the show's budget.  Also I feel like they already have these shows anyway and completing them in a satisfying way makes for a product they can sell for years... rather than a half completed series forever. 

Those services, particularly Netflix, have algorithms telling them the likelihood of a show attracting new subscribers. That's what they care about. 85% of Netflix's budget is targeted at original programming they own free and clear. I don't see them picking up too many things the networks cancel unless they see a huge upside. 

One other factor really working against Lucifer is the shift away from genre programming by the major networks. It looks like multi-cams and run-of-the-mill dramas are back in favor.

[ketose]

3 hours ago, Mabinogia said:

Because it doesn't matter how many people see the show, it matters how many people see the commercials and live, on network TV is still where the advertisers are looking. It all boils down to the advertisers. If advertisers aren't interested in buying time on a show, the show is going to be pulled. 

Different platforms have different ads. Even On-Demand uses different ads than the live airing. Unfortunately, the ratings books are the metric advertisers are comfortable with.

Streaming services are also a problem. They give you a smorgasbord of junk and then use viewing data to work out how to adjust the mix. I'd love to see it all replaced by a system of micro-payments. If you like a high quality show with a low viewership, you have to pay more to keep it in produciton.

 

2 hours ago, CheshireCat said:

Well, that's an easy fix: let Chloe be completely freaked out and move away. They can then focus on the celestial aspect, let Lucifer be the devil and have one less actor to pay. Win-win-win ;-)

That didn't work out well for New Amsterdam.

[jhlipton]

5 hours ago, Mabinogia said:

Because it doesn't matter how many people see the show, it matters how many people see the commercials and live, on network TV is still where the advertisers are looking. It all boils down to the advertisers. If advertisers aren't interested in buying time on a show, the show is going to be pulled. 

Truth.  The fault, if any, lies with the advertisers who think (rightly or wrongly) that they get a much larger income from live TV than they do from anything else.  So the networks have to take that into account -- if the ad execs don't feel they're getting their money's worth, they're not going to pay for a show.

4 hours ago, CheshireCat said:

Well, that's an easy fix: let Chloe be completely freaked out and move away. They can then focus on the celestial aspect, let Lucifer be the devil and have one less actor to pay. Win-win-win ;-)

This is just I-Hate-Chloe nonsense.  The CGI budget would eat up German's salary easily.  Moreover, they'd certainly hire someone else for you to hate.

[jhlipton]

7 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Ummmm, you wanna elaborate on that? Because, while I've certainly heard complaints about some of his books not being sufficiently woke (like basically anything else) I've never heard of him being described in such harsh terms. Did he say something I am unaware of?

Something I've become increasingly aware of, culminating with the treatment of Bilkis, the Queen of Sheba, who Solomon treated as his intellectual equal, was reduced to a man-eating sex machine in American Gods, because we know how those black women are.

[tennisgurl]

9 minutes ago, jhlipton said:

Something I've become increasingly aware of, culminating with the treatment of Bilkis, the Queen of Sheba, who Solomon treated as his intellectual equal, was reduced to a man-eating sex machine in American Gods, because we know how those black women are.

I mean, to each his own interpretation, but I never got that vibe from his writing. He has written other black female and POC women in many of his works where they're more well rounded characters, and there are even other black women in American Gods who are sympathetic. Even Bilkis is somewhat sympathetic. And she isnt really the Queen of Sheeba, shes the version that was brought to America after her glory days. Plenty of the old gods were doing crappy things in the modern age. I mean, if you dont like that interpretation thats fine, but I dont think that makes someone a racist slug. I dont think she is any commentary on black women in general.

Off topic, sorry. 

[jhlipton]

10 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

I mean, to each his own interpretation, but I never got that vibe from his writing.

Fair enough.

[Pindrop]

I don’t consider the finale a cliffhanger. The face reveal was long overdue and caused elements of the show to stagnate, or worse, circle the drain. This is the big moment the show has been endlessly, tediously building towards and it should be the culmination. Leave it now; there is nowhere else to go.

It also irritates me that the US networks insist on such overlong seasons. Almost every show I watch would be vastly improved if it were 8-12 episodes and the plotting was tightened.

Edited May 16, 2018 by Pindrop

[katmax]

3 hours ago, Pindrop said:

 

It also irritates me that the US networks insist on such overlong seasons. Almost every show I watch would be vastly improved if it were 8-12 episodes and the plotting was tightened.

I honestly can't understand why they were given such a long season 3 when it was obvious that the two shorter seasons in 1 & 2 had worked well for them. It just created wasted episodes which diluted the story they were trying to tell.

11 hours ago, CheshireCat said:

Well, that's an easy fix: let Chloe be completely freaked out and move away. They can then focus on the celestial aspect, let Lucifer be the devil and have one less actor to pay. Win-win-win ;-)

I think that would go down like a lead balloon.  Chole seems to divide viewers. Personally she doesn't do anything for me, but the whole deckerstar fandom focus on her and Lucifer with starry eyes waiting for them to get married or go to heaven or something.....(I've no idea what), but the show would loose a lot of viewers (if it was still on) if she was gone.

[katmax]

12 hours ago, BooBear said:

 Also I feel like they already have these shows anyway and completing them in a satisfying way makes for a product they can sell for years... rather than a half completed series forever. 

That's what I want more than anything. If I spend hours and hours watching a series I want an episode to properly end it. The lack of wrap up episodes is the real crime in modern television and the producers of series rarely get a heads up that they should wrap up a story for viewers.   I much prefer going into an older TV series knowing it will have a proper end. I've  ditched series in the past that I've heard are cancelled on a cliff-hanger as it barely seems worth the effort of watching them just to be frustrated.

10 hours ago, RinaX said:

 

One other factor really working against Lucifer is the shift away from genre programming by the major networks. It looks like multi-cams and run-of-the-mill dramas are back in favor.

Ugh. That's depressing. We had a good run of genre shows over the last 5 or so years.

[Pindrop]

2 minutes ago, katmax said:

That's what I want more than anything. If I spend hours and hours watching a series I want an episode to properly end it. The lack of wrap up episodes is the real crime in modern television and the producers of series rarely get a heads up that they should wrap up a story for viewers.   I much prefer going into an older TV series knowing it will have a proper end. I've  ditched series in the past that I've heard are cancelled on a cliff-hanger as it barely seems worth the effort of watching them just to be frustrated.

When I watch a show I always assume that Season 1 is the story the writers/show runners want to tell, and anything beyond is the goodwill the producers/networks want to sell. I am quite content with one good season of a show, anything more is a bonus.

[katmax]

19 hours ago, Gigi43 said:

Unless the show is huge overseas since there was no huge number increase to at least 1.0 I will be completely floored if anyone buys it.

I saw some screenshots from sites which follow twitter and I was suprised at where they were coming from. There are a huge amount of fans for Lucifer in Brazil, Germany, Canada, with smaller groups of fans in Russia and Australia and in some parts of Africa. Its watched all over the world, but only the USA viewers are counted for ratings purposes.  It was actually pretty educational to see the fan distribution from twitter.

[BooBear]

1 hour ago, katmax said:

That's what I want more than anything. If I spend hours and hours watching a series I want an episode to properly end it. The lack of wrap up episodes is the real crime in modern television and the producers of series rarely get a heads up that they should wrap up a story for viewers.   I much prefer going into an older TV series knowing it will have a proper end. I've  ditched series in the past that I've heard are cancelled on a cliff-hanger as it barely seems worth the effort of watching them just to be frustrated.

There are so many good shows hanging around Netflix and Hulu that don't have an ending. I can understand because it is hard to get the actors and actresses back together once they have disbanded, but when a network drops a series like Lucifer, that is the time to get in there write an agreement for 8 more episodes to end the series.  Done!

It seems odd to me that they don't do this.  As for any algorithm saying what shows will bring them subscribers, I find it unimaginable that continuing a popular network show wouldn't bring them significantly more subscribers than some new show. For me it is the other way around. I get Hulu to watch Timeless and I end up watching Runaways because it is there. Not the other way around. 

[Sonja]

1 hour ago, katmax said:

I saw some screenshots from sites which follow twitter and I was suprised at where they were coming from. There are a huge amount of fans for Lucifer in Brazil, Germany, Canada, with smaller groups of fans in Russia and Australia and in some parts of Africa. Its watched all over the world, but only the USA viewers are counted for ratings purposes.  It was actually pretty educational to see the fan distribution from twitter.

Of course only US ratings are counted. Internationally, depending on the territory, they are still in previous seasons, earlier in the season or now first on SVOD services (mostly Amazon Prime) and on 'free TV' after. Also, the ratings don't matter to the rights holder (sometimes not the same studio for all territories); they sell the series for a fee, if the local TV station manages to recoup or not is their problem.

[Helena Dax]

Deckestar shippers aren't the reason this show had a shitty third season and got cancelled. And you can ship two characters and still care about everything else, like good plots or good characterization or the story itself. I shipped them and imo, it's pretty clear that they were endgame since the first episode; however, I was perfectly able to see that this show was making a lot of mistakes and I can only assume that most of my fellow shippers did the same, since that's what I've experienced in the past and I know for sure that shippers can indeed have a critical mind.

Did I think they would get married and go to Heaven together and such things? No. Did I think they would have kids together? No. I didn't expect or want a traditional happy ending for them. I just thought they would be solving crimes and facing evil supernatural beings together AND they would be a couple. In fact, my favourite ending would have been very similar to the one we got, except that Chloe would have had time to accept Lucifer and we would have found out what's the deal with her. That's all.

[enoughcats]

This may fit here.  Years ago I was in LA, got in very late from Houston, and I was at the Bonaventure Bar.  I thought recognized the couple to my right, and asked her if I knew her from Television.  She laughed and said "I was the owner of the paper on Mary Tyler Moore".  I said I really liked her character and had missed seeing her.  She responded that they had run out of story lines for her so they killed her off.  I said I missed her and hoped better things would come for her.

I still remember that and wonder if writers cause more turnover than actors.

[CheshireCat]

13 hours ago, jhlipton said:

Tweets have absolutely zero effect on renewal or cancellation

Not necessarily. It's true that revenue is what matters and if this show is losing too much money then no amount of fan outrage in the world matters. But it does matter. How much, I don't know, and it probably also depends on the networks but it's not dismissed entirely.

 

13 hours ago, jhlipton said:

This is just I-Hate-Chloe nonsense.  The CGI budget would eat up German's salary easily.  Moreover, they'd certainly hire someone else for you to hate.

A) You may have seen the smilie face at the end which was an indication that I wasn't entirely serious and B) I don't hate Chloe. I hate (though dislike might be a better word) how she was written/that the writers don't seem to be able to show us what is going on. They always have to tell us. But that's not just the case with Chloe and that she's special, they were also incapable of developing a proper relationship between Chloe and Pierce. They just told us through Ella and expected us to see what Ella saw. But how could we when they didn't show us?

But the story with Chloe could have been so much better and had a lot more potential even without off-the-charts-chemistry between German and Ellis. Proper development of relationships and showing us how/that she is special would have gone a long way in making up for the lack of chemistry.

 

6 hours ago, katmax said:

I think that would go down like a lead balloon.  Chole seems to divide viewers. Personally she doesn't do anything for me, but the whole deckerstar fandom focus on her and Lucifer with starry eyes waiting for them to get married or go to heaven or something.....(I've no idea what), but the show would loose a lot of viewers (if it was still on) if she was gone.

Probably. But I've seen viewers threaten to dump a show when this or that happens or doesn't happen and it didn't make much difference in the end so who knows. But as I said, I wasn't entirely serious. They could have done that after S1 but it's far too late for it now.

 

 

5 hours ago, Sonja said:

Of course only US ratings are counted. Internationally, depending on the territory, they are still in previous seasons, earlier in the season or now first on SVOD services (mostly Amazon Prime) and on 'free TV' after. Also, the ratings don't matter to the rights holder (sometimes not the same studio for all territories); they sell the series for a fee, if the local TV station manages to recoup or not is their problem.

 

6 hours ago, katmax said:

 Its watched all over the world, but only the USA viewers are counted for ratings purposes.  It was actually pretty educational to see the fan distribution from twitter.

Only US ratings are counted but it a show's international success still matters because it contributes to the show's revenue. I think it's Elementary which is doing so well internationally and that is part of the reason it keeps getting renewed. CBS is, apparently, still making money with it and at the end of the day, it's the revenue that matters. Ratings are only a part of that/are used to attract advertisers.

But that is why I'm also sure that social media matters. When advertisers see that there is huge response to a show they may be inclined to want to advertise even if the ratings don't seem that good. It all depends on the bottom line and social media is now a part of the bottom line.

Edited May 16, 2018 by CheshireCat

[katmax]

6 hours ago, Sonja said:

Internationally, depending on the territory, they are still in previous seasons, earlier in the season or now first on SVOD services (mostly Amazon Prime) and on 'free TV' after.

And this is exactly why online piracy flourishes even now.  I know where I live it can be up to 12 months later that shows turn up, in the meantime spoilers are all over the internet and fandoms have moved onto discussing the next episode leaving those who don't have access to it left behind. The internet has been a game changer for how people find out exactly what they are missing out on and either get angry or do something about it, whether it is legal or not.

Advertising is the main revenue stream for free to air TV and much of cable (I admit I hate paying for cable only to get adverts it seems like double dipping) but people with premium cable like HBO and who watch DVDs have got used to watching with out advertisements and many, like me I'm afraid, do their best to avoid them. Its jarring to go back to free to air these days and I'd rather not watch any TV at all than put up with the ads for too long. TV has hit a log jam between what viewers really want and the way their business model is set up.

[Happy Harpy]

4 hours ago, CheshireCat said:

Only US ratings are counted but it a show's international success still matters because it contributes to the show's revenue. I think it's Elementary which is doing so well internationally and that is part of the reason it keeps getting renewed. CBS is, apparently, still making money with it and at the end of the day, it's the revenue that matters. Ratings are only a part of that/are used to attract advertisers.

 

It's true that with the Sherlock Holmes brand, Elementary sold well, but its biggest revenue is a US syndication deal that reportedly earns CBS at least three millions per episode. Although no one knows how long WGN America signed for (it was back in S2, IIRC)  imo Elementary will get renewed as long as it lasts.

As for international revenue, it's a tricky thing to evaluate and often, it isn't as big as people think.  Some shows are imposed in a package by distributors through a system of contracts, and/or air on networks that have a limited audience. In spite of the success of (illegal) streaming, which increases the visibility of a show via online fandom, the mainstream audience still gets their US series through good old TV, and the major networks in particular. It must create a huge revenue discrepancy. For example, here, Lucifer was bought by the number one network. The US scripted shows it airs can expect between 4 to 6 millions viewers for primetime. But the number one network is a kind of CBS, so it doesn't air Lucifer and only sells it on its VOD platform. It's broadcast on a genre cable network which is lucky when it gets 10.000 viewers. Even if VOD is profitable, I don't think it can compare to the revenue brought by several million people who have access to a show for free.

Edited May 16, 2018 by Happy Harpy

[jhlipton]

7 hours ago, CheshireCat said:

A) You may have seen the smilie face at the end which was an indication that I wasn't entirely serious and B) I don't hate Chloe.

 

But the story with Chloe could have been so much better and had a lot more potential even without off-the-charts-chemistry between German and Ellis.

Sorry I missed that. 

It really bugs me that Nicole Beharie, who had chemistry out the window with Tom Mison gets treated like crap by Fox (and, no, I am NEVER going to let that go!) while Lauren German (and -- ugh -- Jamie Alexander) go on and on and on.  I'm not saying it's racism, but I'm not saying it isn't, either.

[CheshireCat]

27 minutes ago, jhlipton said:

Sorry I missed that. 

It really bugs me that Nicole Beharie, who had chemistry out the window with Tom Mison gets treated like crap by Fox (and, no, I am NEVER going to let that go!) while Lauren German (and -- ugh -- Jamie Alexander) go on and on and on.  I'm not saying it's racism, but I'm not saying it isn't, either.

In case of German, it may merely be clouded judgement due to German being such a fun person to be around. Everyone on set seems to love her and I think it's possible that they're seeing what they want to see (the great and fun person that she is/seems to be) and not what's actually happening on screen.

Also, when Lucifer and Chloe played their friendship, they were great, so maybe it was the writing more than the acting. I don't really recall that I've ever seen a scene which would have allowed German and Ellis or German and Welling to play out any kind of attraction. There never was a scene when Chloe stopped and stared, for example, and you had the impression that she's contemplating something about Lucifer or Pierce. There never was some sort of smile that she gave either that didn't quite make sense, never a sort of teasing, nothing that would hint that she may be attracted to either. But there was in the episode when Lucifer and Pierce went undercover and even though Pierce clearly didn't want to be there, the dialogue and scenes were more charged than any non-sexual scenes between Chloe and Lucifer or Chloe and Pierce.

At the same time, if there had been better chemistry, it might have made up for the lack of good dialogue and maybe a different actress would have been able to sneak in what was needed even if it wasn't explictly in the script.

[jhlipton]

23 minutes ago, CheshireCat said:

At the same time, if there had been better chemistry, it might have made up for the lack of good dialogue and maybe a different actress would have been able to sneak in what was needed even if it wasn't explictly in the script.

A lot of good acting can definitely make up for mediocre scripts and good scripts can make up for mediocre acting (for a wretched example of mediocre acting on a mediocre script.

[Gigi43]

Huh. So Fox is airing those two other episodes on Memorial Day. Guess they had nothing  else to waste?  

 

http://deadline.com/2018/05/lucifer-fox-airdate-bonus-episodes-cancelled-series-1202395468/

[Notwisconsin]

Fine with me....

[ketose]

Bone-us with 2 out of sequence episodes.

[katmax]

On 5/19/2018 at 3:21 AM, Ivydoom said:

As far as ratings go, what use is it for US companies to advertise in other countries? So why would advertisers care about internatinal ratings? I have no idea if selling a show to foreign networks will bring in enough revenue to keep the show producing when it doesn't bring in money in the home country.

And that has always been the problem for international fans of USA made shows. We count for nothing on the networks over there where only Neilson ratings count. The new streaming services on the other hand have hard information on who is watching every show in a way you can never see with Neilson boxes and the streaming isn't so dependent on advertising. Its because traditional TV gets all its revenue from advertising and it boxes them into a corner with the ratings.

The real problem I have is that if a show dips below a certain ratings level they don't give the how runners enough notice to change direction and properly wind up a series. All these unresolved genre TV series are a real turn off for people, especially in their second life on streaming services or on DVD release. I'm sure it makes a lot of people reluctant to start new series they see coming up on TV.

[Unclejosh]

I just don't think this will be picked up anywhere else. It will get rebooted at some point though i bet.

[Pindrop]

4 hours ago, Unclejosh said:

I just don't think this will be picked up anywhere else. It will get rebooted at some point though i bet.

I agree. Fox are doing all they can to ensure it isn't, by having an inconsistent schedule, airing episodes out of order, and commissioning further wrap-up episodes. 

[CheshireCat]

47 minutes ago, Pindrop said:

I agree. Fox are doing all they can to ensure it isn't, by having an inconsistent schedule, airing episodes out of order, and commissioning further wrap-up episodes. 

Did I miss something?

[Pindrop]

8 hours ago, CheshireCat said:

Did I miss something?

Yes, you missed an article spread by one of our less trustworthy and gutter-bound news outlets (The Daily Express), which had me fooled on a cursory reading. As usual the headline and leading paragraph bore no resemblance to a nothing-story. 

[katmax]

An interesting, and very lengthy article giving an overview of each episode of Lucifer by Ildy Modrovich and Joe Henderson. Their talk of network interference and the things they wanted cut out or not included and the insistence on light police procedural is very interesting and explains a lot.

http://comicbook.com/dc/2018/06/04/lucifer-showrunners-talk-about-every-episode/#1

[Happy Harpy]

45 minutes ago, katmax said:

An interesting, and very lengthy article giving an overview of each episode of Lucifer by Ildy Modrovich and Joe Henderson. Their talk of network interference and the things they wanted cut out or not included and the insistence on light police procedural is very interesting and explains a lot.

http://comicbook.com/dc/2018/06/04/lucifer-showrunners-talk-about-every-episode/#1

Interesting link, thanks. They talk about network interference / light procedural thing mostly about S1 and a bit about S2, don't they? I loved those seasons and I thought they were well balanced. I couldn't get through half of the bad soap fest that S3 quickly became so I must say I rolled my eyes at their gleeful comments about tearing the female relationships apart and the two love triangles.

[Mabinogia]

1 hour ago, Happy Harpy said:

I must say I rolled my eyes at their gleeful comments about tearing the female relationships apart and the two love triangles.

The two worst things about the show. Oye. I loved Maze's relationship with both Linda and Chloe, as I felt it grounded her a lot. And I found one love triangle cringeworthy while the other was ludicrous. Maybe a little network interference isn't such a bad thing sometimes. 

The main thing I got out of that article is the show runners had no idea what they were doing and were making it up as they went along. Shame, really, but probably best it got cancelled since they clearly didn't know what they were doing other than putting the Devil in "clever" situations while thinking they were cleverly twisting tropes on their ear.