S04.E21: Headache

[RedInk]

Juliette is irredeemable. The writers presented a clear parallel with Renard in this episode - he was truly possessed with no control over his actions and cannot be responsible for the events that occurred. If they wanted an exit strategy for Juliette, they would have gone the same route. She was clearly thinking out the consequences as the plan was unfolding and made the decision to continue. I completely agree that the conscience she showed made her actions WORSE. She said "Thank God," when she saw that Diana was unharmed, so maybe the writers are planting the seeds that she hasn't fallen too far... but that's a huge fail. She can't come back from this, and if she gets a redemption arc, I think the viewers will turn on the show. Well, I will. She's gotta go.

[theatremouse]

I think the word I'm looking for is "Clunk".

It still makes absolutely no sense to my why, after 20 years of successfully pretending to be dead, Kelly would just show up. (I don't mean we haven't seen her before. Obviously I know we have. I just mean, she was so stealthy and whatnot. She seemed to need too little convincing given who she's supposed to be.) I'm also confused why she'd bring the kid with her when the invitation was to a life or death situation. It just....Ken's plan seemed to hinge on a lot of assumptions for it to work...and yet...it worked exactly. It was way too easy. Which normally would make me think what we thought we saw wasn't really what we saw. Except, at this point, with this show, with these writers, it's almost just as predictable-and-too-easy for them to turn around next week and say "what you saw wasn't what you thought you saw" as what happened in this one really actually being it. I feel like I'm in a giant circular conversation with this show of "well you knew I'd know you know I knew..." second guessing of reverse psychology kinda thing. It's still a binary choice. So it's still predictable and boring either way.

The whole "Juliette looks semi regretful in that blank stare vague hint at any emotion way she does" scene while she was upstairs made me seriously think she was going to come downstairs to see everyone (except Kelly) murdered by Diana and she'd be all shock and awe. I cannot give them credit for surprising me that the most obvious possible thing to happen actually happened, because I'd rather see something I expected that is interesting, than something surprising that is boring.

I enjoyed exactly two things about this episode: Teresa, and Hank's one liner in the precinct.

I can't remember the line now, but when Nick said some painfully trite cop show segue type statement I also can't remember right now, but basically Nick said "Exposition!" and Hank said something to the effect of that being a pointless statement. It was hilarious, and yet, know what writers? You can get a laugh out of hanging a lantern on your own bad writing, OR, maybe, perhaps, possibly, perchance, consider...just writing something better in the first place. Although at the same time...I suppose one could get away with saying it was a character moment because Nick is Mr.ClunkyCopShowExposition and if that's really his personality intentionally, not bad CopShow writing, then I guess Hank's calling it out is good. But I'd still suggest giving the lead on a magic!CopShow a personality of someone who tends to talk like trite cop show exposition is probably not the best writing choice to begin with. So really they're burned either way.

Edited May 9, 2015 by theatremouse

[Free]

Juliette is irredeemable. The writers presented a clear parallel with Renard in this episode - he was truly possessed with no control over his actions and cannot be responsible for the events that occurred. If they wanted an exit strategy for Juliette, they would have gone the same route. She was clearly thinking out the consequences as the plan was unfolding and made the decision to continue. I completely agree that the conscience she showed made her actions WORSE. She said "Thank God," when she saw that Diana was unharmed, so maybe the writers are planting the seeds that she hasn't fallen too far... but that's a huge fail. She can't come back from this, and if she gets a redemption arc, I think the viewers will turn on the show. Well, I will. She's gotta go.

 

Viewers are already struggling with this storyline, if they try to do anything else, they'll make it even worse than it already is.

[Mrs OldManBalls]

Oh well, at least they saved Sean Renard. And didn't kill Wu.

 

I didn't realize I was holding my breath during their scenes until I let it out on one big "whew!" when Wu was rescued.

 

 

 

And Rosalie again proves to be the real badass of this show. Last week, it was her managing to dissect Adalind's mom's corpose while everyone else was too grossed-out. This week, she takes action on Jack the Renard when everyone else is frozen. You can just see the thought balloon each time: "Damn, do I have to do everything around here?" Or was that all part of the plan to trick Jack into thinking he was dead, since they were using rubber bullets anyway?

 

She's more important to Team Grimm than Juliette ever was. 

 

Thank goodness Trubel is here.  It's time to start decapitating these fools.

 

It's nice to have her back. 

[OtterMommy]

I stand by what I say. Let's compare the Juliette Lies in a Hospital Bed comatose for an entire season, then watches a hole in the floor floor, then the 800 fakeouts of being told Nick is a Grimm dragging out for a whole season. 

 

Also, how many episodes has it been since ZOMBIE!NICK! came into being? He would stop breathing. He went to one doctor who gave him no answers, said turning green and not breathing was totes okay with him for the time being, and the gf with the medical training agreed with him. They've never resolved it and just stopped him from having symptoms, except now every few episodes he can hear really well.

 

You know what? At least there was a payoff for Renard, and it happened within the season. Eight to ten episodes for Grimm is speedy.

 

I will give you that the Jack the Ripper storyline was finished off faster than most multi-episode story lines on this show.  My mistake was comparing his story line to actually well written shows as compared to the writing in THIS show.  Ha ha!

[Dobian]

Playing Devil's advocate: Yet a HUGE part of fandom were totally about Spuffy (Spike and Buffy) and of course Buffy/Angel when both Angel and Spike had done HORRENDOUS things including murdering a parent, murdering slayers, and let's not forget Jenny Calendar.  But everybody got along with them.  I particularly hated that Spike was popular while he was chipped and still WANTED to murder people, he just couldn't do it because of the pain.  He even told a story to Dawn about hunting down and killing a child while babysitting her.  I wonder what makes the difference.  Personally I'm with the crowd that sees Julliette as too far gone but I'm consistant as I don't think it was reasonable for the Scubies to have accepted Spike.  I think it is much more realistic for these characters to not be able to forgive Juliette. But I do wonder if gender bias plays a part in how people react. I think redemption via death may be in the cards although I never forgave Darth Vader for killing children so it won't really work for me either way.

 

The real issue, which you ae hinting at, is that the difference between Juliette and Spike/Angel, is that Juliette has done things to directly offend both the main characters and the viewers.  That's the main reason why most people hate Juliette but like Adalind, when objectively you could say that Adalind is no better.  Now if Spike had murdered Giles in front of Buffy, or left his head for her in a box, I doubt people would have been all "Spuffy" anymore.  But much of his murderous activity was directed at third parties or shared with people through bygone tales.  And his violence toward the main characters during his villain days was always thwarted.  Adalind tried to kill Nick's aunt and kill Hank and do other terrible things, but she was unsuccessful, so she never crossed that point of no return.  But Juliette didn't just step over the line, she leaped over it.  She had his mother beheaded.  She torched his aunt's legacy.  That last one was a lot bigger than I think the writers expected.  It would have been like if Data went batshit crazy and blew up the Enterprise.  The Grimmebago was literally a character on the show.  I think for any show, the rule of thumb is that if you "try" to kill a main character, the main characters and viewers can forgive in the right situation, but if you pull it off, there's no going back.

Edited May 9, 2015 by Dobian

[Enigma X]

As for the Juliette and Kenneth, I don't understand why these characters must twirl their mustaches so much. That never makes for an interesting villain. I don't even love to hate them. I just hate them.

[icewolf]

This episode should have been titled "Heartache".

[ottilie]

"Speaking of writing, why would possessed-Renard bother taking Wu along?"

 So it gives Renard the chance to speak in cockney accent and act crazy, for drama. It was great acting

Edited May 9, 2015 by ottilie

[OtterMommy]

"Speaking of writing, why would possessed-Renard bother taking Wu along?"

 So it gives Renard the chance to speak in cockney accent and act crazy, for drama. It was great acting

 

Sigh...what I think we lose in this show, amidst the clumsy story lines, bad writing, and horrendous acting by a few, is that there are some really impressive actors in this show.  Sasha Roiz has always been underutilized, and Silas Weir MItchell has been neglected for at least half this season, even DG (who I think started out as a very stiff actor) has really developed.

 

What a waste....

[Fable]

What a waste of an hour!  This show is a mess. 

 

Not much of anything that happened this episode made a lick of sense. 

 

Why on earth did Nick come to the conclusion that Adalind would know what was up with Renard?  That really seemed like a stretch.  And, the Renard's Ripper arc seemed completely pointless, but at least it's over. 

 

No way in Hell would Kelly have walked into that setup (with a baby no less) and be taken out so quickly and easily….no way! 

 

As for Juliette, there are no words, so I'll just say what everyone else is saying – DIE!

[Black Knight]

Fully on board the kill Juliette train. If she's alive at the end of next week's episode, I may reconsider watching next season. 

 

The only question is, who would make the most satisfying killer? I'm leaning toward Monroe going full Blutbad on her. 

 

I'd vote either Monroe or Rosalee though.

For me, Monroe and Rosalee are dead last on my list of satisfying killers. Why? Because Juliette got into this to save them. Don't get me wrong, it doesn't excuse what she's done since; I agree she's irredeemable and needs to die, and I in no way think that Monroe and Rosalee owe her any consideration, forgiveness or friendship, or that they should want anything other than her dead. And they can cheer when she's dead, and spit on her grave. I also don't think they need to feel guilty about Juliette turning into a Hexenbiest.

 

But still...it would not be satisfying for me if they were the ones to actually do the deed. Because she did the spell for them. And in recognition of the woman she once was, the woman who cared enough about them to do the spell even though it wasn't what she herself wanted, I think it should be someone else. Anyone but them. Nick is at the top of my list, though. I think it's very fitting for him to be the one to kill her.

 

But, I have to admit I hope it's not this season. I've never minded BT's acting, and I like having Juliette as the Big Bad; I'm much more interested in the Big Bad when it's her rather than the ever-revolving and confusing cast of Royals, none of whom I've ever given a shit about. I'd like Juliette to realize that the Royals are a waste of space and that it's ridiculous that they control any Wesen, and kill them all, and take their power for herself. Then she can head up the bad Wesen and go against Nick, Trubel (who should be made a series regular) and the gang for next season - which I assume will be the show's last - and be finally killed by Nick in the series finale.

[OtterMommy]

 

Why on earth did Nick come to the conclusion that Adalind would know what was up with Renard?  That really seemed like a stretch.  And, the Renard's Ripper arc seemed completely pointless, but at least it's over. 

 

Yet another thing that bothered me...after genius and all-knowing Adalind (ha!) tells Nick what is going on with Renard and basically says you have to kill him to fix this, Nick and company develop this elaborate ruse to sort of, kind of kill him but they never actually discuss how they are going to get the spirit out of Renard.  I expected them all to fake kill Renard and then all look at each other and say, "Okay, now what?"  Luckily, though, we have magic to take care of everything.

 

You know one little thing they could have done to improve that whole story line?  Forget about Jack the Ripper and go the Jekyll and Hyde route.  It makes more sense--there was a potion (or "magic" involved) that led to the Jekyll and Hyde dual personality, there was the conflict of he duality of personality, and it was fiction so you didn't have the problem of making a real person magical. I last read Jekyll and Hyde in the 8th grade--so far more years ago than I'd like to admit--but I think that Mr. Hyde killed some prostitutes as well?

 

Of course, there are many other things they should have done with that story line (I gave my ideas in the thread for 4.20), but opting for Jekyll and Hyde over Jack the Ripper would have been an easy, and smart, thing to do.

[squidprincess]

I think people are being a bit unfair to Kelly.  It made sense to me that she brought Diana.  She probably figured: "Oh, Nick's in trouble.  I'll leave Diana with Juliette and some of the many cop and/or wesen friends at the house while I go save Nick."  She had spoken to Juliette by email and by phone and Juliette had indicated the house was safe.  She had no way to know that Juliette was the danger.

[Free]

As for the Juliette and Kenneth, I don't understand why these characters must twirl their mustaches so much. That never makes for an interesting villain. I don't even love to hate them. I just hate them.

 

That's because they are.  Kenneth is an interchangeable generic baddie, who can easily be replaced by the next Royals stand in because the writers have done nothing substantial with them.

 

As for Juliette, the writing is just awful, worse than the previous horrible storylines.  Her sudden descent to villainy was just poorly constructed all around, all that managed to do was piss off more people than before and she was already hated to begin with.

Edited May 9, 2015 by Free

[The Wild Sow]

 

 

"Speaking of writing, why would possessed-Renard bother taking Wu along?"

So it gives Renard the chance to speak in cockney accent and act crazy, for drama. It was great acting

Yep.  That, and so he could remark to Wu, "You're probably asking yourself, 'How on earth did this bloke learn to drive?'"!

 

Ha!  Right, who DID teach Jack the Ripper to drive (assuming he's actually been dead since the late 1800's and not periodically hitching rides back to life with other revived folks)?  Kind of like the hilarious essay about how did Michael Myers (the killer from Halloween, not Austin Powers!) learn to drive?!

 

I guess if "Jack knows whatever Sean knows" that includes how to parallel park, use turn signals, etc....

 

Oh, and unless HexenRoyal children age at about 4-5 times the usual rate, Diana (who was born in March of 2014!) has the worst case of SORAS I've seen in many a year!

[icewolf]

And it never occurred to the genius Nick that he might warn his mother that Juliette was a little dangerous before the bad happened? He had several episodes to do so. He had been in contact with her before. When did Nick get possessed by the ghosts of all idiots past?...he left the trailer exposed, he left his computer open to be used, he apparently has no impulse to have a spell whipped up that would keep Juliette out of the house, and he doesn't warn the most obvious people that Juliette is rampaging and can't be trusted. Sadly this just mean we probably have a season of guilt ridden Nick to look forward to no matter what happens (or doesn't happen) to Juliette.

Yes, Nick has turned into a complete moron this season on everything involving Juliette.

You know what? I'm just glad as hell Trubel didn't knock on the door, go inside the house, and be yet another person betrayed by Juliette.

If Juliette had told Kenneth that Trubel was a Grimm, he would have very likely ordered her death. Another dead Grimm is another good day for him. Thankfully, Kenneth thought Trubel was just some random kid, and sent one Hundjäger after her instead ten.

[chrisvee]

Yet another thing that bothered me...after genius and all-knowing Adalind (ha!) tells Nick what is going on with Renard and basically says you have to kill him to fix this, Nick and company develop this elaborate ruse to sort of, kind of kill him but they never actually discuss how they are going to get the spirit out of Renard. I expected them all to fake kill Renard and then all look at each other and say, "Okay, now what?" Luckily, though, we have magic to take care of it.

The discussion happened offscreen but the scene showed their plan pretty explicitly and it worked perfectly.

The potion was to slow-kill Renard in a way they could revive him. They lied about the memories to fool Jack. The Grimmies then waited until Renard was about to potion die to lure Jack with Rosalee, then they rubber bullet shot him at the moment the portal opened. Jack thought the shots killed Renard so he fled. Then the Grimmies revived Renard. If Jack had suspected potion death he would have hung on to wait to be revived which would have either meant Renard's true death or Jack taking over permanently. The had to get Jack to jump out of Renard voluntarily.

Edited May 9, 2015 by chrisvee

[Fable]

I think people are being a bit unfair to Kelly.  It made sense to me that she brought Diana.  She probably figured: "Oh, Nick's in trouble.  I'll leave Diana with Juliette and some of the many cop and/or wesen friends at the house while I go save Nick."  She had spoken to Juliette by email and by phone and Juliette had indicated the house was safe.  She had no way to know that Juliette was the danger.

 

I don't think the writers were very fair to Kelly...to have such clever and kick-ass woman meet such ridiculous ending.  It was so out of character from what has been established about Kelly.  It's a shame really!  RIP Kelly. 

[Shadda2]

Well, that was interesting and tragic and funny and annoying and ever so many things.  I did like it and I do think it set up a few things going forward.  A couple of thoughts I have and responses to other posts:

 

- Why doesn’t Nick seem to have the strength and powers he has had in the past?  I loved the zombiefied Nick and I miss him.  The super hearing last night was nice, but we need more.

 

- Kelly was not dispatched easily, she was set upon by several beasts, we don’t even know really which ones and held her own for a while.  So I do not feel that her death was too easy.

 

- Also, Kelly thought she was dealing with the loving Juliette who was going behind Nick’s back to help and protect him because she was so scared and worried about him.  I do believe she thought she was coming to help in a back door kind of way so her trusting Juliette made sense to me.   She also called the house phone and confirmed that it was Juliette and she was indeed inside.  To us it was an obvious setup, but to her, not so much.

 

- One of the things I loved about this show from the beginning was the humor, that has been waning lately and I do believe needs to be revived.  There were several funny lines tonight, but they are getting fewer and farther between.  The reason I am a fan of Adalind is she brings the funny.  The exchange between she and Nick was one of the nicer moments on the show.

 

- DG has grown so much as an actor.  That last scene was amazing.  They did a nice job, if you can use the term, directing what played out.  Cutting the music and everything going quiet was a good choice and the look on DG’s face was amazing.

 

- So glad Truble is back.  Best reintroduction ever, though I have to admit to being a little uncomfortable with the whole beheading thing given today’s realities.  I have liked her from the beginning, as long as they were not showing her eating.  I loathe scenes where people eat like pigs.

 

- As for girlfriends, or even wives, often being disliked by the fans, I have seen that happen in a lot of shows, Sleepy Hollow being the first that comes to mind.  I tend not to do that because I like the idea of no relationship drama.  But in this case I never could warm to Juliette and I have tried and tried. 

 

- Thank you, those who have pointed out that Adalind is not the impetus for all of the trauma in Nick’s life.  It was indeed Sean Renard that started it all because he wanted Nick’s aunt dead and didn’t give a crap about any collateral damage (Hank).  Then he wanted to control the Grimm and at that point he had already thrown Adalind out like yesterday’s trash.  Her solution to getting even with both Sean and Nick was epic, and in the long run boring as hell.

 

Okay, that’s it for now.   I’m looking forward to next week’s episode.  Perhaps next year we can learn more about the royals and if we have to keep her we can dispatch Juliette to, where ever the Royal’s live, and only see her on occasion.  Oh and I really don’t like her super powers.  Having her be a hexenbiest is fine, but having her the superest most specialist most powerfulest biest ever to be was probably not their best bet.

[icewolf]

I don't think the writers were very fair to Kelly...to have such clever and kick-ass woman meet such ridiculous ending. It was so out of character from what has been established about Kelly. It's a shame really! RIP Kelly.

Kelly was pretty mush sacrificed at the alter to continue the Juliette drama, and get Nick into vengeance mode. Stuffed into the Fridge is a common trope in fiction. It was so lazy and gross of the writers to do that.

[shapeshifter]

Good bit:

The Scoobies discussed possibly having to shoot Jack if he took over Renard. Then, when they were giving Renard the potion, we saw that just Nick had a gun ready "just in case." So when they all began blasting Jack/Renard's body at point blank range in the torso, I said to my TV, "Wow. Overkill?" Moments later they mentioned rubber bullets. IRL he would've been more bruised and had ribs broken, but it was comic relief.

Other good bit:

Bud stammering about how he didn't know how Nick and Hank managed living with the constant anxiety, to which Hank replied, "We don't use bats."

[sigmaforce86]

I don't hate Juliette - I don't love her or need her on the show though; I just never totally hated her or Bitsie either.  But there's nothing the writers can do now to redeem the character and still stay in the real of logic.  It seems like Diana will be her undoing but even to give Juliette a tiny but of purpose she needs to die protecting and saving Diana.  It's not redemption since she got Diana into this in the first place but it seems like the only way this can go.  The worry is will the writers back off and instead do something like having Juliette go off to raise and protect Diana the way Kelly did earlier.  Letting her live like that is a cop out.  But letting her live to threaten the team another day just won't work;  Juliette just isn't enough of a character to become the new "big bad" of the series (as others have said she's not Angel to Angelus material); she pretty much has to die for this to end correctly.

 

 

Sigh...what I think we lose in this show, amidst the clumsy story lines, bad writing, and horrendous acting by a few, is that there are some really impressive actors in this show.  Sasha Roiz has always been underutilized, and Silas Weir MItchell has been neglected for at least half this season, even DG (who I think started out as a very stiff actor) has really developed.

What a waste....

 

That story, especially that accent could have gone horribly wrong but I think Sasha went all out and did a great job.  When he turned to Jack just after beating up Wu he even changed his bearing pulling his head in and twisting his body.  Silas/Monroe had a story but they dropped it and I'm hoping what we've seen so far with the PTSD was just a set up for something that'll be part of next season and they didn't drop it completely They do both need more to do and the Captain needs to be in this with more than just the Royals plot line.

Edited May 9, 2015 by sigmaforce86

[Dobian]

There is rather a big difference between Spike and Juliette.  Spike had a distinct personality and was always interesting to watch (you might not like what he did, but he was not boring).  Juliette...well, for all her anger and hatred, she just isn't that interesting because she has had only one note for several episodes.  I don't care whether she lives or dies, to be honest, but I would like the focus to be taken off her. I feel like they could have several episodes without her in it and, when we returned, she'd still be the same.  This is not completely the fault of the actress...the writers have done her no favors.

 

Spike was a terrific character, the classic "villain you love to hate".  Dukat and Weyoun were similar charismatic villains on Deep Space Nine.  Some people just know how to play villains.

[MrWhyt]

 So when they all began blasting Jack/Renard's body at point blank range in the torso, I said to my TV, "Wow. Overkill?" Moments later they mentioned rubber bullets. IRL he would've been more bruised and had ribs broken, but it was comic relief.

 

IRL everyone there wouldn't be having a normal conversation for awhile, guns (especially in closed spaces) are LOUD y'all.

[Prevailing Wind]

Y'know, I'm really OK with Bud being the one to take out Juliette.  While she's busy terrorizing Nick, et al., here comes safe, sweet Bud up behind her with his bat...

[evilmindatwork]

Goodbye to my light, funny show. I hate it when shows that start off fun just descend into darkness. I didn't like it with Buffy and Grimm was never well-written enough to handle it to begin with. How annoying. I used to like Juliette but there's no way to recover from killing your boyfriend's mother. Ugh! Evil Juliette came out of nowhere. It would have been more bearable if the writers had spent some time explaining her motivations.

 

ETA: I wouldn't like it but could deal with it if Juliette's descent into villainy made sense.

Edited May 9, 2015 by evilmindatwork

[Straycat80]

My problem is the age of Diana. Wasn't she just born last year? She looked to be about 3 or 4 in this episode.

[Dobian]

But the worst of the bad writing is as others have mentioned -- Kelly would never have fallen into that trap and bring Diana right into it.  Not a chance.  She may not have anyone she can trust enough to leave Diana with, so she would be absolutely sure it was safe to bring the baby with her to the house.  And that pretty much would be never in a million years.

 

Kelly would have had her radar up simply due to the fact that she was never talking direclty with Nick, and before she made any kind of move she would have spoken with him first.

[GaT]

That's because they are.  Kenneth is an interchangeable generic baddie, who can easily be replaced by the next Royals stand in because the writers have done nothing substantial with them.

 

 

 

That's because the writers still haven't figured out who the Royals are, they're just generic "royals". We have no idea how they happened, or what they're trying to accomplish. Everything about them is going to continue (and I really wish they wouldn't continue) to be interchangeable generic baddie until the writers decide to actually write them.

And it never occurred to the genius Nick that he might warn his mother that Juliette was a little dangerous before the bad happened?  He had several episodes to do so.  He had been in contact with her before.  When did Nick get possessed by the ghosts of all idiots past?...he left the trailer exposed, he left his computer open to be used, he apparently has no impulse to have a spell whipped up that would keep Juliette out of the house, and he doesn't warn the most obvious people that Juliette is rampaging and can't be trusted.  Sadly this just mean we probably have a season of guilt ridden Nick to look forward to no matter what happens (or doesn't happen) to Juliette.

I really thought he had warned Kelly when they showed the scene of Nick noticing that the mouse had been moved. It seemed like that was what they were implying. Maybe we'll all be surprised when it turns out Nick has been acting this whole time, & Kelly isn't really dead & that's why they never actually showed her.

[Darklazr]

I find Juliette and Trubel to be bland and unwanted characters.

 

My theory is this on what may or may not happen due to all of the outrage from the Grimm fans.

 

Kelly is NOT stupid enough to have live this long as a Grimm to take a baby like Diana blindly back to Portland.  What if?  What if Diana has morphed from a baby into this powerful ten year old thanks to Adailand getting her powers back, and she is able to "SEE" what is really going down in Portland with Nik and company, and the Royals?  Kelly and Uber powerful Diana create copies of themselves to fool everyone in Portland, except that "little Diana" has no powers and will eventually be given to Adailand to raise to shut her up. Uber powerful Diana will kill Juliette and let Nik take out Kenny.

 

Before leaving Portland for the last time, the "real" Kelly and Diana will present themselves to Nik and Renard with the caveat that no one knows they are alive or the entire mess with the Royal's will begin all over again.  The Grimmabago is reborn with all of the books, weapons and potions thanks to Diana with an admonishment from Kelly that Nik needed to secure the Grimm legacy with stricter security, because it will all be needed once all seven keys are found.  Diana is the one that informs Renard to get a DNA done on "little" Diana because Eric was always the father, and she permanently takes away all of birth mother's and the new baby's powers.

 

I hope the show is able to get the actress that played Kelly back long enough over the summer to shoot the above scenes to close out the powerful Diana part of the story.   

[Enigma X]

Hasn't Diana caused elaborate elusions before? My money is on this being another. Although, there is no rhyme or reason to leave an illusory Kelly's head behind for Nick to find. The writers have come up with other ridiculous things though.

[GaT]

I find Juliette and Trubel to be bland and unwanted characters.

 

My theory is this on what may or may not happen due to all of the outrage from the Grimm fans.

 

Kelly is NOT stupid enough to have live this long as a Grimm to take a baby like Diana blindly back to Portland.  What if?  What if Diana has morphed from a baby into this powerful ten year old thanks to Adailand getting her powers back, and she is able to "SEE" what is really going down in Portland with Nik and company, and the Royals?  Kelly and Uber powerful Diana create copies of themselves to fool everyone in Portland, except that "little Diana" has no powers and will eventually be given to Adailand to raise to shut her up. Uber powerful Diana will kill Juliette and let Nik take out Kenny.

 

Before leaving Portland for the last time, the "real" Kelly and Diana will present themselves to Nik and Renard with the caveat that no one knows they are alive or the entire mess with the Royal's will begin all over again.  The Grimmabago is reborn with all of the books, weapons and potions thanks to Diana with an admonishment from Kelly that Nik needed to secure the Grimm legacy with stricter security, because it will all be needed once all seven keys are found.  Diana is the one that informs Renard to get a DNA done on "little" Diana because Eric was always the father, and she permanently takes away all of birth mother's and the new baby's powers.

 

I hope the show is able to get the actress that played Kelly back long enough over the summer to shoot the above scenes to close out the powerful Diana part of the story.   

Please get a job as a writer on this show. Please.

[Blue Plastic]

Playing Devil's advocate: Yet a HUGE part of fandom were totally about Spuffy (Spike and Buffy) and of course Buffy/Angel when both Angel and Spike had done HORRENDOUS things including murdering a parent, murdering slayers, and let's not forget Jenny Calendar.  But everybody got along with them.  I particularly hated that Spike was popular while he was chipped and still WANTED to murder people, he just couldn't do it because of the pain.  He even told a story to Dawn about hunting down and killing a child while babysitting her.  I wonder what makes the difference.  Personally I'm with the crowd that sees Julliette as too far gone but I'm consistant as I don't think it was reasonable for the Scubies to have accepted Spike.  I think it is much more realistic for these characters to not be able to forgive Juliette. But I do wonder if gender bias plays a part in how people react. I think redemption via death may be in the cards although I never forgave Darth Vader for killing children so it won't really work for me either way.

I've never watched more than a couple of episodes of Buffy so I can't say if I would have accepted Spike or comment on why I think a lot of fans accepted him.  I can say that I feel more accepting of Adalind than I do of Juliette and I know that's crazy because they have done similar horrible things.  It might be because I like Claire Coffee's acting better than BT's.  Some of it, I think, is also because, as another poster said, Juliette was Nick's girlfriend and trusted friend of Rosalee, Monroe, Hank and Kelly and now she's betrayed them all in the most horrible way.  Not that it's okay to murder a stranger vs. a friend, but it does add betrayal to the list of sins.  Also, I think it might be because Juliette's transformation to evil has been very fast and she has committed her crimes very quickly and close together, whereas Adalind's have been sprinkled throughout the series.

[redfish]

Juliette didn't just step over the line, she leaped over it.  She had his mother beheaded.  She torched his aunt's legacy.  That last one was a lot bigger than I think the writers expected.

 

Definitely, it showed how far gone Juliette has become. I don't think Juliette can ever come back from that. She is actively deciding to lose her humanity and not care. I don't think she can use "they did to me" as an excuse. This is going to end badly and I had felt sorry for Juliette and Nick's relationship. It was one the more normal things in his life.

 

I think it was creepier that she sat there upstairs with no reaction hearing the massacre down below was almost borderline sociopathic (no regret or remorse) and cowardly at the same time (she didn't even have the guts to show Kelly who set her up). 

[Shanna Marie]

Here's the problem with "Everyone hates the wife/girlfriend." If they get an awesome actress, don't give her a bunch of annoying traits, and make her integral to the plot, people will love her.

 

Case in point: Felicity on Arrow.

I may be wrong because my knowledge of Arrow is based on what I see in my Facebook feed from friends who do watch, but I think this is a different situation because Felicity didn't start the series as Oliver's built-in girlfriend. In fact, there was another character who was meant to become his girlfriend (or actually was his girlfriend?), based on the source material. So Felicity was a 'shipping thing, someone fans wanted to get together with Oliver, and fans pretty much hated the person who was either his built-in girlfriend at the start of the series or his destined girlfriend based on the source material. The character who's generally loathed is the woman who is the main character's wife or girlfriend when the series starts, so we didn't see them meeting and getting together or going through all the will they/won't they stuff. There was no chance to 'ship them because they were already together. There's a very different fan reaction to a woman who becomes the main character's girlfriend during the course of the show because there's usually a stretch of time when fans want her to be the girlfriend before she actually is.

 

I have a hard time seeing where they can go from here with Juliette because she's actually been a little too competent to be an ongoing villain. She's accomplished everything she set out to do -- burn the trailer, set the trap for Kelly, get Diana for the Royals, avoid getting the suppression potion. So far, no one has been able to stop her. So if she remains as a regular villain, she'll have to get less competent or she'll just crush the Grimm Gang. Or else they'll have to raise their game and crush her. Adalind at least has the benefit of being not entirely competent, so it's possible to keep her around.

 

I'm not sure why HexenJuliette is so evil and so different from Original Recipe when Adalind was just as awful while her powers were gone. Is there something that different between made and born? Is it more like a possession? I don't feel like they've set up this abrupt about-face very well.

[Commando Cody]

I also thought the baby could be powerful enough to make it all look real.  The only problem with this being an "illusion" is I don't think Kelly would traumatize Nick by letting him see her head in a box.  If she is really dead, it was if the writers had no idea of who Kelly was.  It was so poorly written.  

 

If Kelly is really dead, this could, potentially, set  Nick up with an instant family.  The kid is going to have to live with someone after they get it back from, the royals.  I don't think Theresa would want to raise her.  After everything they went through, It might be Adelind, Nick and Renard raising the kids after all.  

 

That kid should only be a year old.  I hate when TV does that.  

 

One more thing I noticed, but keep forgetting to mention.  They made Renard this potion in a glass jar - and once again just handed it to him.  He and Jack.  They apparently didn't learn anything from handing the glass of potion to Juliette.  One would think they would be a little more cautious now.  

Edited May 10, 2015 by CommanderCody

[Blue Plastic]

And it never occurred to the genius Nick that he might warn his mother that Juliette was a little dangerous before the bad happened?  He had several episodes to do so.  He had been in contact with her before.  When did Nick get possessed by the ghosts of all idiots past?...he left the trailer exposed, he left his computer open to be used, he apparently has no impulse to have a spell whipped up that would keep Juliette out of the house, and he doesn't warn the most obvious people that Juliette is rampaging and can't be trusted.  Sadly this just mean we probably have a season of guilt ridden Nick to look forward to no matter what happens (or doesn't happen) to Juliette.

For a cop he doesn't seem to be very good at security.  You'd think he'd be better at keeping the house and trailer physically secure, and if he's not good with technology/computers/e-mail, he probably has some trustworthy Wesen friends who could hook him up with VPN and passwords and whatever else would protect him and Kelly from Juliette.

 

I think it was creepier that she sat there upstairs with no reaction hearing the massacre down below was almost borderline sociopathic (no regret or remorse) and cowardly at the same time (she didn't even have the guts to show Kelly who set her up). 

Poor Kelly probably died thinking she had let Juliette down, not even realizing Juliette had betrayed her because Juliette didn't at least have the courage to show her face to her victim.

[Free]

I agree the writers left absolutely NOWHERE for Juliette's character to go. How much more evil could she be? They've had her try and kill her friends, burn down the Grimmebago, and had her BF's mom beheaded. She has nowhere to go but...up, which is where, unfortunately, they are going to take her. Mark my words.

 

Juliette took what she know as a trusted confidante and weaponized it, but they are going to "redeem" her, and the rest of the Scooby gang is going to fold like a cheap card table. I cannot see them just continue to have Juliette do more and more and more horrible things to the people that love her. What's the point? There's such a thing as overkill. We got that she was evil when she tried to kill a pregnant woman. We got that she was evil when she tried to get Monroe killed. WE GOT IT. But no, the writers want to make sure we get the point, so she gets Nick's mom killed. WHY? What was the point? The writers are as subtle as a sledgehammer. They were not at all gradual. They had her say she enjoyed her powers before she sought revenge for having them.

 

She seems to have control as to when she woges, so it's not like she's woging uncontrollably. She's not numb. She's a monster. I am not getting any of this. And I don't trust the writers to have a bigger plan other than to give Bitsie a juicier role and have her character be more interesting, which is a huge FAIL.  

 

Even if they try to force a redemption on her, it wouldn't be believeable, her transformation to a villain has been poorly constructed based on character stupidity allowing her to get away with it and poor character motivation on Juliette's character as a whole.

[Lugal]

I've never seen a show go down in writing quality so fast. I hate it when shows try to shake things up, or do things for shock value.  I think of Vikings where a character was killed off and the showrunner actually wrote a 5 page essay to the actor on why his character had to die.  Now that's thinking things through.  I think the Grimm writers mistook finding your groove for being in a rut.

 

I think the Jack the Ripper storyline could have been interesting on it's own (Sasha Roiz was awesome when Renard was realizing he was losing control) but it was sort of lost in the shuffle here and just one more horrible thing that was happening.  But there was actually some hope in that Nick will finally kick over the table and start cutting off some heads.

 

With Adelind it was never this personal, like her "I don't want to hurt Hank, so Nick, just give me the key" plan. We've seen Adelind's scheming and she's been a good enough undervillain, and Claire Coffee made us care for her.  Her reaction to her mother throwing her out when she lost her powers was great, I really felt for her.  I actually find myself liking Adelind even now more than I probably should.  Plus she lost as much as she won, like in the whole "seduce your enemy but forget to bring birth control" plan.

 

I always liked Juliette and I like Bitsie Tulloch, but there is no way to redeem the character now.  She's destroyed Nick's legacy from his aunt and the tools of his Grimm trade (not to mention centuries of accumulated knowledge), she also set in motion events that would end with his mother's death, the royals taking Diana, the deaths of her neighbors as well as the near death of Monroe and Hank.  She's also done it one of the most mean and spiteful ways possible.  There is no coming back from this.  She is too powerful to be a regular villain and she's gone too far for redemption.  If you need to keep Bitsie around, kill Juliette and use some Hexenbiest potion to make someone else look like her, and then it might even be interesting to see how would the others react to seeing the face of the woman who almost destroyed them.

 

Also to the Royals: You've got one of the most powerful hexenbiests ever on your hands who had no trouble betraying her longtime friends.  Bear that in mind.  Although if the writers insist on redeeming Juliette, massacring the Royals would be a good start.

[ottilie]

Did you also catch the brief scene where he is taken over by the spirit and starts writing a message from Jack on the mirror in blood? That is totally out of the Shining scene w Jack Nicholson.

[Slovenly Muse]

If we're talking about who is and is not redeemable, I think the main difference between Adalind and Juliette is that when Adalind did awful things to people, it was as a means to an end. She may have enjoyed it, but she was doing it for a purpose, to achieve something, or because she'd been coerced. She didn't rape Nick because she wanted to, or because it was the kind of thing she would normally have done on her own, but because she thought it was the only way to get her child back. What makes her "evil" is that she considered this to be an acceptable way to get what she wanted. Juliette set up Kelly to get murdered for no reason whatsoever. She gets nothing out of Kelly's death but the... satisfaction? I guess?... of knowing that Nick was in pain because of it. She has no goal, and no purpose to what she's doing. Hurting someone to further your own agenda is despicable, but it's at least something an audience can understand. Where Juliette is right now, there's just no way to connect to that.

 

I would be less pissed that Kelly is gone if I thought her death would ultimately mean something or result in some real, lasting change. With this show though? I don't expect anything but business as usual by the time the next season starts. What a waste of a great character.

 

Trubel is back, though, so I will be focusing on the positive as much as I can going in to next week. Because Trubel is back!

[Free]

Did you also catch the brief scene where he is taken over by the spirit and starts writing a message from Jack on the mirror in blood? That is totally out of the Shining scene w Jack Nicholson.

 

I think this is another example of what sets Juliette apart from the other characters that are redeemed.  We actually see Renard disoriented when he wakes up in random places, we actually see him getting taken over by Jack the Ripper, we see him getting phantom wounds, etc.

 

With Juliette, we're told that this isn't her or that she's can't control it and then we're also told straight up that she likes her power.  We're shown flashback that are supposed to show remorse and then we also have Juliette going along with everything with no hesitation taking Diana while Kelly is attacked and beheaded off screen.  There's a major disconnect with her character's action and motivation with what the writers want to portray.

[Free]

There's no point to it. There's no point to the entire Juliette "arc" except, "OOH! This is fun to make Juliette evil!" there seems to be no thought put into it at all. Just, "She's evil." Well, okay?

 

As a villain she will suck, because what is she going to do next? Take candy from babies? What can they do to make her more evil? And if they force a redemption on us, which is highly more likely, then they took her too far to do that. Even if "But I had no idea what I was doing!"

 

That's also been proven wrong, due to her kind of realizing her evilness while she's doing it. 

 

What happened to this show? WHAT?

 

Exactly, they will have cornered themselves no matter what they did and the forced redemption would make it worse considering that had to destroy the trailer and kill Kelly off to push this awful storyline, it's also what makes this worse than the other bad storylines we've had in this series.

[johntfs]

 

As a villain she will suck, because what is she going to do next? Take candy from babies? What can they do to make her more evil?

 

She will build a house in the Portland woods that is made entirely of candy, lure children inside and then eat them, obviously.

[Darklazr]

Nik actually seeing Kelly's head in a box "no pun intended" makes it more believable to everyone that she is dead, while we know that "real" Kelly and Diana tell the truth to Nik / Renard in order to wrap up the story of uber powerful Diana.  Uber powerful Diana is gone until the show's final year and then all bets are off!

Juliette having flashes of her old life with Nik as she listens to his mother being slaughtered was vile, and I hope the character dies soon, real, soon!

[shapeshifter]

Diana's unusual growth is an ROUS situation...

Rats Of Unusual Size? Heh. I'm more inclined to think it's just a Grimm time thing. And I'm so glad she's not a teenager already.

...That's quite different from, "So, I hate my boyfriend for giving me powers I've stated I love and am happy he gave them to me, so I'm going to make sure his mom gets beheaded."

That's the same logic my boss often uses! I'm trying to think of a way to compress this into a memorable anagram that I can mutter next time it happens. Heh. Logic of the Power-Drunk Made-Hexenbiest (LPDMH) isn't very catchy.

Anyway, I still think they spent an awful lot of screen time showing Juliette's regretful looks and flashbacks for it to not mean some sort of redemption arc is coming. I looked on IMDB, and although Bitsie has 3 movies coming out, I don't see any future projects, so it seems unlikely she's dying a martyr's sacrifice--which seems the most logical resolution But why should we expect a logical resolution? Adalind has been retconned so many times, her head should be doing Exorcist-style spinning by now.

[Free]

Juliette having flashes of her old life with Nik as she listens to his mother being slaughtered was vile, and I hope the character dies soon, real, soon!

 

That's the worst part if they try to force a redemption on her, she showed no inner struggle or at least trying to resist.  We just see her blankly going along with the Royals, selling out Nick and the others, destroying the trailer, getting the neighbors killed off, and setting up Kelly to her fate.

 

 

...That's quite different from, "So, I hate my boyfriend for giving me powers I've stated I love and am happy he gave them to me, so I'm going to make sure his mom gets beheaded."

 

Exactly, the motivation has been piss poor and very inconsistent.  All this has accomplished is destroying important plot points like the trailer and killing Kelly off all for the sake of a terrible storyline, which only pissed off more people to Juliette's character than before.

 

 

Anyway, I still think they spent an awful lot of screen time showing Juliette's regretful looks and flashbacks for it to not mean some sort of redemption arc is coming. I looked on IMDB, and although Bitsie has 3 movies coming out, I don't see any future projects, so it seems unlikely she's dying a martyr's sacrifice--which seems the most logical resolution But why should we expect a logical resolution?

 

It's too late for anything logical, not that there was much of one, but it's gotten worse than ever before.

[Free]

I'm so pissed that Constantine may get the boot, while Juliette's Wild Ride gets renewed. 

 

 

This at least would be centered around an actual Grimm fairy tale and would make sense in the context of the show! 

 

Rodents of Unusual Size

 

And GLS: Grimm Logic Sucks

 

Catchphrase: Grimm, we come up with good ideas and ruin them!

 

Ikr, at least Constantine was actually doing his thing, here, we get stuck with these nonsensical storylines and destroying things like the trailer and killing off characters like Kelly for this bs.

[ShadowFacts]

 

I've never seen a show go down in writing quality so fast.

I never have, either, though I don't watch a huge variety of shows.  I am used to many good shows losing their luster in later seasons, and sometimes a promising show takes an offensive turn that makes me stop watching.  But this one was going along so well until the second half of this season with the Juliette hexening.  So, so poorly planned and executed.  A real disappointment to me.

 

 

I think this is another example of what sets Juliette apart from the other characters that are redeemed.  We actually see Renard disoriented when he wakes up in random places, we actually see him getting taken over by Jack the Ripper, we see him getting phantom wounds, etc.

We are shown that he doesn't remember and we are shown that he is disturbed by the thought that he could have done these murders.  Juliette has full awareness and the ability to stop but doesn't. That contrast would seem deliberate.  It would follow that since they have different  "pathologies", they will have differing paths back.  For me it will be hard to even see Renard going back to business as usual at the police department, if that's what happens.  Even though he was controlled from beyond (which I didn't like), he should go through some self-blame and self-doubt.  Juliette can never atone for her sins and crime, short of self-sacrifice.  I don't even have to compare and contrast with Adalind.  Juliette has lost her soul, and for no reason.