S05.E03: High Sparrow

[SFoster21]

I hope not. When the entire things ends, I would like the remaining Stark children to retake Winterfell and their revenge to be so brutal that it is at least 6 generations before anyone thinks about messing with them. I prefer the Starks to Dany.

It's fairly obvious to me that the journey of the Stark children is the story. They have lost their their three parental figures (four if you count the old Maester) and they are being groomed separately as Jedi knights, each with specific and excellent capabilities. Banded together, they will be formidable.

Edited April 27, 2015 by SFoster21

[Haleth]

All we really know about FrankenMountain is:

The Mountain did not actually die when he fought Oberyn.

Qyburn was kicked out of Maesterworts for being involved in strange medical experiments.

He told Cersei that the process he was using would "change" him. 

When asked if it would make him weaker, he said "no" in a very sinister tone.

Somebody big is under a sheet, occasionally grunting and moving.

And, maybe, just maybe, he is now green, has bolts in his neck, and eats dwarf heads and rats. 

Think of the merchandising possibilities if George R. R. Martin decides to put out a breakfast cereal.

And if he puts on a top hat and starts singing "Puttin' on the Ritz" we will have a show!

 

{small voice} I keep imagining Richard Armitage making a magnificent cameo appearance in black leather on horseback................

Yes please.

[Dobian]

It seems to me Sansa's destiny is to marry everyone (or marry into their family anyway) who butchered her family.  What a gig.

Edited April 27, 2015 by Dobian

[Guest]

Add me to the list of people who think that this is a story about the North and the Stark children. Their alleigance to Winterfell was tested and no one disappointed. Jon was as honourable as his father, Sansa is back home (and the North remembers) and Arya keeps Needle. Bran and Rickon's absence seems conspicious by its absence, but I like where this is going with the eldest 3. I would really like to believe that Sansa is done being eternal victim and is finally waking up. Her stony face and her curtsy seem to point to that direction - very Cat-like indeed.  On the other hand, I was surprised to find myself a bit disappointed that Arya's Faceless Men are based on religion. I think I have my fill of religious overtones with Melisandre and the fundamental Sparrows. What the hell were the Faceless men doing with that corpse?

Tyrion is by far the cleverest man on the show. I thought his recklessness was slightly out of character considering how well he knows Cercei's hate for him. Then again, as entertaining as the banter between him and Varys is, the characters did need a change of pace. I hope Jorah is taking him to Dany though. If Jorah loses his devotion to her, not sure I'd remain interested in him.

Margery seems to be overplaying her hand unless there's something that she's bringing to the table besides sex and sheer charm. In other KL news, the resident scientist has a Frankenstein alter ego? I've learnt to trust this show, but I hope that goes somewhere good. 
 

Also, with Brienne following her, there is the return of (most of) Ned's sword to the North which I would think would have a great impact

 

 

 I'm scared of spoliers if I go looking... half of Ned's sword is with Brienne because Jaimie gave it to her. Where's the other half?

Edited April 27, 2015 by Trichromatic

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Why does the High Sparrow look familiar?

I will always think of Jonathan Pryce as The Engineer in Miss Saigon!

[dramachick]

Margery seems to be overplaying her hand unless there's something that she's bringing to the table besides sex and sheer charm. In other KL news, the resident scientist has a Frankenstein alter ego? I've learnt to trust this show, but I hope that goes somewhere good. 

 

 

 I'm scared of spoliers if I go looking... half of Ned's sword is with Brienne because Jaimie gave it to her. Where's the other half?

 Margery's family is financing the throne.  The Baratheons are broke and not just because Robert was a lousy king.  Littlefinger embezzled a lot of loot before he got out of Dodge.  Tywin loaned the throne money, but I don't think Kevin will do the same.

[SFoster21]

Add me to the list of people who thinks that is a story about the North and the Stark children. Their alleigance to Winterfell was tested and no one disappointed. Jon was as honourable as his father, Sansa is back home (and the North remembers) and Arya keeps Needle. Bran and Rickon's absence seems conspicious by its absence, but I like where this is going with the eldest 3. I would really like to believe that Sansa is done being eternal victim and is finally waking up. Her stony face and her curtsy seem to point to that direction - very Cat-like indeed. On the other hand, I was surprised to find myself a bit disappointed that Arya's Faceless Men are based on religion. I think I have my fill of religious overtones with Melisandre and the fundamental Sparrows. What the hell were the Faceless men doing with that corpse?

Tyrion is by far the cleverest man on the show. I thought his recklessness was slightly out of character considering how well he knows Cercei's hate for him. Then again, as entertaining as the banter between him and Varys is, the characters did need a change of pace. I hope Jorah is taking him to Dany though. If Jorah loses his devotion to her, not sure I'd remain interested in him.

Margery seems to be overplaying her hand unless there's something that she's bringing to the table besides sex and sheer charm. In other KL news, the resident scientist has a Frankenstein alter ego? I've learnt to trust this show, but I hope that goes somewhere good.

I'm scared of spoliers if I go looking... half of Ned's sword is with Brienne because Jaimie gave it to her. Where's the other half?

The two swords were given to Joffrey and Jaime, IIRC. Don't know which one Brienne has.

[dargosmydaddy]

 

Don't know which one Brienne has.

Jaime's, I think. Presumably Tommen inherited Joffrey's?

[Guest]

Tommen inherited Joffrey's

 

 

Poor Tommen is such a babe in the woods. I wonder why no one sat with him and tried to prepare him for the chaos he was going to be thrown into. I know Tywin had kind of made a half-assed effort at one point but Cercei should really have been on top of that. 

[MrsRafaelBarba]

There's no room for compassion in a military command, especially one under threat. Slynt openly challenged Jon's leadership, in the most disrespectful way possible.

And, thanks to Sam, all the Night's Watch know that Slynt hid during the battle, so he's a cowardly bastard as well. Jon had to execute him, or lose his command.

Janos Slynt's death was long overdue.

Far back as Season One.

[Le Renard]

I'd like to think Littlefinger has a plan to deal with Bolton, he wouldn't have forgotten the part the man played in Cat's death. He seems to be making use of Sansa but I don't think he's giving her away, I hope Ramsay is dead before long.

[justawatcher]

Arya- the other girl's comment about how she didn't earn her coin, etc makes you wonder how long the other girl has been there. And, she has the exact same sullen attitude that Arya has. I could see Arya two years from now still sweeping the floor and cleaning bodies and wondering how come some other girl is there with a coin she hasn't (yet) earned. The dead men and the water- maybe drinking the water and dying proves you weren't really No One and hadn't given up your previous identity, kind of like the golden crown on Dany's brother proved he didn't have dragon blood. And maybe the dead people are the faces you assume. Which would mean that Jaqen has on someone else's face, which still has me holding out hope that he's really Syrio the dancing master (also from Braavos) and Arya's getting a coin wasn't an accident. (Remember, we never saw his head on a spike but we saw everyone else's)

 

Jon- at some point, someone has to let him out of that oath. Or, they redefine it. Jon deserves a HEA.

 

Tyrion- anyone else suspect that maybe Varys and Jorah are in cahoots? that maybe that particular brothel was a planned stop? And who was the Asian chick? Where have I seen her before?

 

Cersei spitball- I am going to spitball that Cersei tries to do something to Margery and Tommen either  banishes her or executes her. 

 

I could care less about the white walkers and nasties beyond the wall. Snore.

 

The Boltons- I was surprised to see Rooses's wife still alive. Presumeably he already collected his silver from Walter Frey and Ramsey is now legitimate. There doesn't seem to be a need for a wife. And, as creepy and wrong as they both are, Roose and Ramsey have always been hot, which makes it even more uncomfortable. But, this episode? Ramsey looked not hot and even more like the kid you know who's not right. What's up with that?

[izabella]

On the other hand, I was surprised to find myself a bit disappointed that Arya's Faceless Men are based on religion. I think I have my fill of religious overtones with Melisandre and the fundamental Sparrows. What the hell were the Faceless men doing with that corpse?

 

I was disappointed at the religion angle, too.  I was hoping for magic!

 

 Margery's family is financing the throne.  The Baratheons are broke and not just because Robert was a lousy king.  Littlefinger embezzled a lot of loot before he got out of Dodge.  Tywin loaned the throne money, but I don't think Kevin will do the same.

 

I'm pretty sure I remember them saying the Lannisters are broke now.  It was something about the gold mines not having produced any gold for 3 years? 

[SimoneS]

 Margery's family is financing the throne.  The Baratheons are broke and not just because Robert was a lousy king.  Littlefinger embezzled a lot of loot before he got out of Dodge.  Tywin loaned the throne money, but I don't think Kevin will do the same.

 

Exactly. Without the Tyrells, the Lannisters' control over the throne already tenuous would collapse completely. This is why Tywin was determined to have Cersei marry Loras, to strengthen the alliance and keep the money flowing. Kings need money to pay their armies and guards, buy off enemies, and win new allies. This is why Stannis went to the Iron Bank. So Margeary is not dispensable as some people suggest, the Lannisters need to keep that marriage alive and well. Cersei will no doubt continue to try to undermine Margeary to hold onto the throne through Tommen like she did with Joffery, but that is because Cersei is a stupid woman without a lick of sense.

Edited April 28, 2015 by SimoneS

[SourK]

So... I think, at the end of last season, Ramsay came up with an ill-defined plan to have Theon be a mole or something. There were whispers about him having to pretend to be Theon Greyjoy again, etc, etc, so it sounded like they were going to send him on a mission. I guess that didn't happen yet? Or am I remembering it wrong?

 

I spent the last two weeks being underwhelmed, because nothing all that horrible was happening, and then, this week, it was fresh horrors all the time, and I got excited. Like, when Jon Snow cut off that one dude's head, it was the first time all season that I said "Holy crap" out loud because I was so shocked and surprised, and, for some reason, that was also the moment I knew this episode was a winner. What's happening to me?

 

I fear for Sansa, but with all the Starks' people around, I cannot believe that Ramsay will dare mistreat her. Besides Stannis and Brienne are on their way to Winterfell. I doubt that marriage will last long if it happens at all.

 

I was worried for Sansa at first, but, after thinking about it, I agree that Ramsay will probably be okay with her. He doesn't take being a Lord for granted, and marrying a noble woman is part of what his father gave him by legitimizing him -- I think he'll treat it really seriously. If Sansa needs to be worried about anyone, it's Ramsay's girlfrind from his bastard days.

 

Also, since Margaery comes from a great house, I would assume she was still a virgin.  But she's always seemed very sexually mature - back when she was advising Sansa about her marriage to Tyrion.  It certainly didn't seem to be her first time, and she was very comfortable sharing her night with the king to all the ladies.

...

I am not understanding LF's motivation at this point.  I thought he wanted Sansa for himself, yet he's willing to turn her over to a monster.  Is his motivation vengeance for Catelyn's murder?  My only hope is that he's about to pull a Tyrell and murder Ramsey before he can get his sadistic hands on Sansa.

 

Yeah, Margaery has always seemed pretty worldly to me, too.

 

For Littlefinger and Sansa, I think she can do so much better than him, but my sense is that maybe they are now a genuinely committed murder couple, and he's going to marry her off to the Boltons so they can kill the Boltons together. I totally agree that his endgame still has to involve being with Sansa, but I think he'd rather be with her as the Lady of Winterfell than some fake, random neice he made up. My gut feeling is that she can probably trust him, because he's taken with her, but that she'll have to kill him one day to really come into her own.

 

Dragons do bring fire, which the Lord of Light should like. Mel isn't the Red Popess, think of it as any major religion with different factions and beliefs. Somehow Melly latched onto Stan, but Dany really makes a lot more sense as a fire god's messiah.  

 

This made good sense to me, too, when I heard it. Interested to see where it goes.

 

On the other hand, I was surprised to find myself a bit disappointed that Arya's Faceless Men are based on religion. I think I have my fill of religious overtones with Melisandre and the fundamental Sparrows.

 

The religious stories aren't really my bag, either, but religion plays a role in the power relationships within a society, so I understand why this keeps coming up. For the Faceless Men, though, I thought they were just going back to their "There's only one god, and that's the god of death" thing -- the same as Arya's teacher used to say. I dont think they're going to turn out to be religious, but they have magic powers, so who knows?

[SimoneS]

The Boltons- I was surprised to see Rooses's wife still alive. Presumeably he already collected his silver from Walter Frey and Ramsey is now legitimate. There doesn't seem to be a need for a wife.

 

Roose Bolton cannot just kill Frey's daughter. Marriages are long term political alliances that last generations. If anything he needs Frey more than ever with the Lannisters weakened and few alliances in the north. Besides one legitimate son is this nothing. Ramsay could die tomorrow.

Edited April 28, 2015 by SimoneS

[Matt K]

For the Faceless Men, though, I thought they were just going back to their "There's only one god, and that's the god of death" thing -- the same as Arya's teacher used to say. I dont think they're going to turn out to be religious, but they have magic powers, so who knows?

I just assumed that they meant that there was one god but he takes the form of the others which makes sense as they also take other identities.

[MrWhyt]

So... I think, at the end of last season, Ramsay came up with an ill-defined plan to have Theon be a mole or something. There were whispers about him having to pretend to be Theon Greyjoy again, etc, etc, so it sounded like they were going to send him on a mission. I guess that didn't happen yet? Or am I remembering it wrong?

 

it happened, he sent Theon into Moat Cailin to get the remaining Ironborn there to surrender. They did, then he flayed them.

[Constantinople]

"I want to do this all day, every day, for the rest of my life"

 

Perhaps Tommen really is Robert's son.

[paigow]

I will always think of Jonathan Pryce as The Engineer in Miss Saigon!

Elliot Carver - Evil Media Mogul:  Tomorrow Never Dies (Brosnan 007)

[Ambrosefolly]

Thorne seems to me like the kind of guy whose respect has to be earned, he was tough on Jon right from the get go and I'm sure isn't happy he's not Lord COmmander, but Jon had the opportunity to be just as bad to him - by assigning him to latrine digging duty - and instead bestowed on him the title of First Ranger, to acknowledge his leadership in the battle (which, he did lead, and didn't hide in the larder like some people). I think Thorne grudgingly respected that decision and that is why he wouldn't step forward to help Janos Slynt.

I wonder if hearing in the meeting to pick the Lord Commander, that Slynt hid while he was facing off against cannibal wildings slightly pissed him off. Throne doesn't tolerate weakness, and as much of a bully he was to Sam during his training, he had a point,\ do they want a man behind them or a scared little boy when they face off against god knows what beyond the wall?

Edited April 28, 2015 by Ambrosefolly

[Lady S.]

Since Theon regarded Robb as a brother, Sansa would be a little sister. But in a Stark, not Lannister kind of way. Theon groped his sister because he truly did not recognize her and felt disgusted with himself after learning the truth. Even Greyjoys draw the line at incest.

Littlefinger married one of his foster sisters and tried to win the one he really wanted in a duel, he's a definite skeeveball but no one's called him an incestuous one. (And Robert regarded Ned as a brother while having the hots for Ned's sister, but then he and Lyanna didn't grow up together.) I don't think Theon thought of himself as a big brother to Bran and Rickon (or else he was a pretty terrible one), or they him (Bran included him only as an afterthought in his prayer when Robb went to war). He regarded Robb as a brother, but probably saw the others as Robb's siblings, and they probably saw him as Father's ward and Robb's jackass best friend. I see Theon's time with the Starks as more like the neighbor kid in a sitcom who practically lives with the family than a true adoption, when the family was all together in the pilot he only really interacted with Robb and Jon and was absent from the cute scene with the boys and Arya doing archery in the yard. If he did have a thing for Sansa (back when he still had a thing to give to girls hardy har har), the only icky part would be that she hadn't even started her period yet when she was last in Winterfell.

 

I'm pretty sure I remember them saying the Lannisters are broke now.  It was something about the gold mines not having produced any gold for 3 years?

Yes, but I also like dramachick's idea that LF was cooking the books. That certainly sounds like something he'd do. Why be an honest royal accountant when he's dishonest in everything else?

Does anyone really think Janos Slynt deserved mercy? Seems the dude is only capable of fighting babies, like the ones he killed in the s2 premiere. And he's one of the biggest idiots on the show if he still thinks he has friends in King's Landing. At least Sam has his wits and is useful in a advisory/clerical capacity.

Edited April 28, 2015 by Lady S.

[Elkins]

Why does the High Sparrow look familiar?

Jonathan Pryce's roles. I don't know which of these you've seen, but that's where you know him from. :D

I always think of him as Sam Lowry from Brazil, myself. And then I weep, because comparing Pryce-then to Pryce-now reminds me that I really am growing old.

 

I've wanted a Stark back in Winterfell for so long, but not like this. NOT LIKE THIS.

Heh. "I've wanted X for so long, but not like this. NOT LIKE THIS" could be the slogan of the entire series, really, couldn't it? It applies to both the characters and the audience! Hey, Sansa, want to travel to the big sophisticated southern city, betrothed to the heir to the throne? Hey, Arya, want to go on exciting outdoor adventures in boy's clothes and with your very own sword? Hey, audience! Want to see Robb marry for love, instead of getting stuck with some Frey girl? Want to see Theon pay for his treachery? Want to see Daenerys become a ruler over men?

 

Suuuuure you do!

 

Is Sansa at Winterfell or at the Bolton's castle?

As Sansa and Littlefinger looked down at the castle, he asked her if she'd ever been there before. She replied that they stopped there on her way to Kingslanding.

I thought this was a little confusing too. It could have been made much more clear, IMO.

The castle in the swamp that they were looking down upon from up on that bluff is called Moat Cailin. It's the castle that the Boltons used Theon to take back from the Iron Islanders last season. It appeared in the opening credits, if that helps you to place it.  It's in a strategic position as the gateway to the North, which is why Sansa would have passed through it before on her way south to King's Landing and why the Boltons needed to reclaim it before they could get their army back home.

Later on in the episode, they entered Winterfell. There was a shot of them passing through the gates and into the courtyard that I think was supposed to call back to King Robert and his retinue arriving there all the way back in the first season. That's where the old woman welcomed Sansa home and told her that the "north remembers." The show skipped over the journey from the one castle to the other, presumably because nothing of interest happened during it.

I think they really missed a trick there, personally. Not only was it confusing as all hell (I had to rewatch the episode to convince myself that they really had traveled from one castle to the other between scenes), but it also seemed pretty severely downplayed dramatically. Sansa's been yearning to go home for ages, show! We haven't seen Winterfell since it was sacked in Season 2! Wouldn't it make sense to give the moment a bit more dramatic weight?

Ah well.

 

It seems to me Sansa's destiny is to marry everyone (or marry into their family anyway) who butchered her family. What a gig.

Mmm. Well, I understand that old Walder Frey is in the market for a new wife. Maybe that can be Sansa's plotline for Season 6.

[Holmbo]

The transitions in this episode were very season 1 like I think. Brienne says how she's going to kill Stannis: cut to Stannis. Bolton taking about a suitable wife for Ransay: cut to Sansa. There were many more like it and it made me think of how they switched between scenes in the first season.

[justawatcher]

It also came to me last night after the discussion about Ned's sword that Brienne has one of the two now and there has to be something symbolic about her using Ned's sword to defend Ned's daughter in Ned's home. Get that sword to Jon ....

[ElectricBoogaloo]

I also like dramachick's idea that LF was cooking the books. That certainly sounds like something he'd do. Why be an honest royal accountant when he's dishonest in everything else?

Littlefinger was definitely stealing from the royal treasury. He totally admitted it to Tyrion beffore he left King's Landing and basically advised Tyrion to do the same.

[Featherhat]

This episode set a new high for me in creepy brothel scenes, what with the High Septon conducting a blasphemous "mass" while "ministering" to young prostitutes and Jorah being in the same brothel as a popular Dany cos player.

 

Tommen/Margaery was definitely manipulative but Tommen was so obviously really enjoying himself I didn't mind the existence of their sex life in general.

[darkestboy]

I liked that episode. Maybe the best one we've had so far.

Sansa having to marry Ramsay is not a good thing unless it's used as a means for her to avenge Cat and Robb's deaths. Here's a hoping.

Cersei is so going to regret getting in contact with that High Sparrow guy. You can just tell she won't be able to control him.

Loving the scenes with Margaery working her magic to try and faze Cersei out by putting the Casterly Rock idea in Tommen's head as well.

Brienne and Podrick's scenes were great. I loved seeing her opening up this week about her past.

Arya's scenes in Braavos were also great this week. I'm really enjoying this arc for her.

More Varys/Tyrion moments please. Loved the last moment where Jorah captured Tyrion for all the good it'll do him though.

The wall stuff was the least interesting but hey, at least they killed off Janos Slynt. Best thing Jon's done in a while to be honest, 9/10

[JTMacc99]

Poor Tommen is such a babe in the woods. I wonder why no one sat with him and tried to prepare him for the chaos he was going to be thrown into. I know Tywin had kind of made a half-assed effort at one point but Cercei should really have been on top of that. 

 

Cersei is way too self-absorbed as a result of her obvious raging anger and depression issues to really be on top of anything for too long. She did, however, probably trust that Tywin was going to handle it for her so that she could concentrate on all of the things that were making her upset, which is pretty much the way she has gone about things since she was a very young girl.

 

The castle in the swamp that they were looking down upon from up on that bluff is called Moat Cailin. It's the castle that the Boltons used Theon to take back from the Iron Islanders last season. It appeared in the opening credits, if that helps you to place it. 

 

Later on in the episode, they entered Winterfell. There was a shot of them passing through the gates and into the courtyard that I think was supposed to call back to King Robert and his retinue arriving there all the way back in the first season. That's where the old woman welcomed Sansa home and told her that the "north remembers." The show skipped over the journey from the one castle to the other, presumably because nothing of interest happened during it.

I think they really missed a trick there, personally. Not only was it confusing as all hell (I had to rewatch the episode to convince myself that they really had traveled from one castle to the other between scenes), but it also seemed pretty severely downplayed dramatically. Sansa's been yearning to go home for ages, show! We haven't seen Winterfell since it was sacked in Season 2! Wouldn't it make sense to give the moment a bit more dramatic weight?

So, this brings up something interesting for me.  I actually rewound the opening credits this week because I thought they added a location, or at the very least I needed a refresher on everything. I noticed that Winterfell wasn't burning, and it seemed like it was fairly normal on the map as opposed to a mess. I have no idea how long it has been that way, but since I paid attention this week, I noticed.  As a result, when Sansa rolled into Winterfell, I immediately associated all of the construction going on with the rebuilding of Winterfell. 

 

Had I not rewound the credits, I probably would have been confused about whether they were at Moat Calin or Winterfell up until the part where we got the "welcome home".

Edited April 28, 2015 by JTMacc99

[DigitalCount]

It is fairly normal, with the exception of the giant red X on top. The wolf castle has a bit of a vampire infestation.

[ulkis]

I hope not. When the entire things ends, I would like the remaining Stark children to retake Winterfell and their revenge to be so brutal that it is at least 6 generations before anyone thinks about messing with them. I prefer the Starks to Dany.

 

I'm gonna reply in the book thread.

[Potanical Pardon]

It's fairly obvious to me that the journey of the Stark children is the story. They have lost their their three parental figures (four if you count the old Maester) and they are being groomed separately as Jedi knights, each with specific and excellent capabilities. Banded together, they will be formidable.

I hope that's not the case. I felt like Ned's death and subsequent Stark events have been hammering away the point that honor and the traditional narrative of a main character/characters eventually coming out on top was being turned on it's head. Why should any of the Starks end up the final victor other than the viewers being weened that way in other stories? It seems like only in fiction are we all hooray for the true kings/tyrany/emperors/royalty, though in reality we're pretty opposed to it even if the ruling family seemed like good people. Varys seems like the narrator character trying to teach us the author's moral of the story - Honor, bad; warm and fuzzies nothing more. Good of the realm (the people) is what always really matters. Then there's Cersei's line: "When you play the Game of Thrones, you win or you die." and Ramsay's "If you think this has a happy ending, you haven't been paying attention." Those moments feel like the authors/writers/showrunners warning us.

My personal hope is that the end game puts no Houses in power. While all the richie-riches are getting the screen time, under the surface we have these scenes of unhappy citizens who couldn't care less about all the Houses drama and growing more and more bitter at their own lives being used as pawns as seen with the Brotherhood Without Banners. We also see that all that desperation has manifested itself in religions growing more powerful and influential. The economics of everything is shown through the Bank of Bravos being the true power as well as Dany's own growing pains of altruism and idealism being thwarted. It feels like everything is headed towards this climactic end that involves dragons, white walkers, gods where everyone goes down simultaneously and with a bittersweet ending for whom seem like the main protagonists of the whole story: Jon, Dany, Tyrion, Bran giving way to a newly fully democratic society in Westeros/Esos.

I'm biased, though...I LOATHE the entire Stark family except Benjen...and probably Jon who's totally growing on me now. The rest of the lot of them...served them right all of their fates. Sansa didn't deserve anything the most, but it's her family's tradition of being dumb and sheltered that left her ill-prepared for the real world. Same thing with Arya - her problem is that she thinks she's got the whole world figured out but she's just as ill-prepared. Robb and Bran are both entitled brats with zero appreciation for consequences while Rickon is off in his own world. That's what happens when mom and dad are all judgy-judge "Rah, Rah! The North!" of everyone around them and get to label it honor because their disdain of other people whom they all clearly think are below them is conveyed passive-aggressively as opposed to the Boltons, Baratheons, Targareyns (sp?), Tyrells, Lannisters, and Martells who aren't afraid to be looked upon as assholes.

Edited April 28, 2015 by Tandaemonium

[Holmbo]

It feels like everything is headed towards this climactic end that involves dragons, white walkers, gods where everyone goes down simultaneously and with a bittersweet ending for whom seem like the main protagonists of the whole story: Jon, Dany, Tyrion, Bran giving way to a newly fully democratic society in Westeros/Esos.

I would love to have the series end with a shift in the society. I don't see though how everything crashing and burning would accomplish that. For democracy to work you need a certain level of structure of the society. Voters need to have some kind of understanding of the world outside their own village and the access to information system. I think the best we could hope for is perhaps the beginning of a basic republic system were the king is chosen by the major lords who are chosen by the lesser ones. A higher influence of maesters or merchants would be good too but I don't thing the story has shown them having much importance so far.

About Starks winning in the end I want this to happen. Not because they are "the good guys" but because I would find it unrealistic if the final moral of the story is that thinking long term never pays off. That is what being honorable and keeping ones word really mean. Instead of doing things that are most beneficial in the moment, betraying allies and sacred customs, one thinks about the long run. If I do this now people will feel like they can trust me doing the same in the future. Neds children might have lost faith in honor and decency in their everyday struggle to survive but that doesn't mean they can't reap the benefits of a reputation their family has cultivated for generations.

[paigow]

I would love to have the series end with a shift in the society.

Lord Commander is an elected position...free from any King...Modify the vow to allow marriage and children and the Night Watch Party would bring democracy to the North.

[Dobian]

 

Mmm. Well, I understand that old Walder Frey is in the market for a new wife. Maybe that can be Sansa's plotline for Season 6.

 

In a way it's the ultimate revenge, as they all must suffer being married to this boring, drippy wife.

[Featherhat]

Historically the brutal collapse of one society doesn't do much to encourage a fairer, more democratic one. In fact often the opposite, no matter what they claim (e.g. regimes that call themselves versions of "people's democratic republic........" etc).

 

There might be circumstances where the Lord's Paramount insist on something like a Magna Carta but it depends on how many of them are viably left, who is left in contention for the Iron Throne and who they are in relation to the ending of the zombie apocalypse, among other factors. And whether anyone who's still alive wants the IT.

[candall]

Oh Tyrion - you are really going to miss your comfortable box.

 

And thank you for gagging him.

Call me Smokey 'cuz I second that emotion.  For the first time in 40 hours, I'm tired of Tyrion.  Enough of the drunk with the vomiting, self-pity and poor judgment.  Ha, I'm sure Varys feels the same.  Consider that rope around your neck a wakeup call and get your act together, T.

 

 Also, since Margaery comes from a great house, I would assume she was still a virgin.  But she's always seemed very sexually mature - back when she was advising Sansa about her marriage to Tyrion.  It certainly didn't seem to be her first time, and she was very comfortable sharing her night with the king to all the ladies.

I'm certain Margaery knows her way around the sheets.  Loras made some reference to her "supposed" virginity way back in the Renley tents and how the only thing that mattered was her official status of record.  But mainly, when she was giving pointers to Sansa, Sansa asked, "How did you learn all this?  Did your mother tell you?"  And Margaery blinked at her naivete' for a couple of seconds and decided to let it pass.  I think she said something like "Mmmkay, let's go with that."

 

Modify the vow to allow marriage and children and the Night Watch Party would bring democracy to the North.

I like this plan.  Could you put that bug in the Pope's ear as well?

[Cool Breeze]

When discussing sex with Sansa, didn't Margaery say that you could do, and learn, a lot without going "all the way"?  That's what I recall as I would think an ability to sexually manipulate (along with all other forms of manipulation) would be important to a noblewoman of Westeros.  But virginity would be highly prized as well.  I don't see Margaery having given that up outside of a royal marital bed.

[CletusMusashi]

I think the Tyrells are powerful enough that if Olenna tells the one in charge that they can phone it in on their virginity inspection, they don't argue with her.

"Yes, my lady, of course. To question Lady Margaery would be absurd. And, yes, you're quite right about the others as well. Loras is completely straight and Mace is totally not a muppet."

[Dobian]

Aside from being the hottest babe among the regular cast, you know Margaery is a total party girl and her virginity flew the coop years ago.  Tommen is one lucky king boy.

[JTMacc99]

For the first time in 40 hours, I'm tired of Tyrion.  Enough of the drunk with the vomiting, self-pity and poor judgment.  Ha, I'm sure Varys feels the same.  Consider that rope around your neck a wakeup call and get your act together,

Well, yeah. The fear of death has always brought about the best of the Tyrion character, hasn't it?  I think the rope around his neck is exactly what we needed. I would be absolutely shocked if he keeps moping.

[Boudicea]

I hope that's not the case. I felt like Ned's death and subsequent Stark events have been hammering away the point that honor and the traditional narrative of a main character/characters eventually coming out on top was being turned on it's head. Why should any of the Starks end up the final victor other than the viewers being weened that way in other stories? It seems like only in fiction are we all hooray for the true kings/tyrany/emperors/royalty, though in reality we're pretty opposed to it even if the ruling family seemed like good people. Varys seems like the narrator character trying to teach us the author's moral of the story - Honor, bad; warm and fuzzies nothing more. Good of the realm (the people) is what always really matters. Then there's Cersei's line: "When you play the Game of Thrones, you win or you die." and Ramsay's "If you think this has a happy ending, you haven't been paying attention." Those moments feel like the authors/writers/showrunners warning us.

 

In the long run I think there are a lot of lessons to learn from this story and there will be more then one moral of the story. But basically I think everything is about balance in this story, too much or to little of anything is generally a bad thing.

 

In season 1 we quickly learned with the beheading of Ned Stark that too much honour can get you killed. But now in season 5 we also see the other side of the coin. Honour might have helped to get Ned killed but that same honour is also helping to cultivate some support for the Starks. Compare the Starks with the Lannisters, Tywin was very intelligent and the most powerful man in the realm, and he still ended up just as dead as Ned Stark, so much for all his power, deceptions and clever plans. There is a great irony here when you compare the two deceased heads of the Starks and the Lannisters. 

 

All Tywin ever wanted was respect for his family and the family name, he bullied those around him into submission. When he was alive the Lannister name meant something as people really feared them. He just wanted the Lannister name to live on in that same manner after his death. And yet, what has happened after his death? The exact opposite, everyone is making plans to move in on the Lannisters, and they are certainly not respected at all.  No cares that Tywin is dead, and no one really honours his memory in death.

 

 

Compare that to Ned Stark, we are in season 5 and we still hear about old Ned quite often. Even though the Stark name has practically disappeared people still respect that Stark name. And it is useful for those who are still alive, The Lords of the Vale where willing to support Sansa because of the respect they held for Ned, all of the other houses in the North are willing to stand up for the Starks because they respected them. We saw that clearly with letter from the Mormonts to Stannis. Ned's honour might not have kept him alive, but it has kept the respect of Stark house alive, which will surely help them in the future. By comparison I am pretty sure that the bannermen in the Western lands wouldn't really care one way or the other if the Lannisters where in charge of Casterly Rock or not, it would just be a different set over Lords. Ned Stark treated people with honour, and it seem like people remember that even after his death. Honour is certainly not the ultimate killer in Westeros, you just have to look at Robb Stark, he was basically killed because he didn't honour his duty.

 

The big irony here is that the one thing the clever Tywin Lannister ever wanted has been denied to him in death, whereas Ned Stark actions actually cultivated exactly what Tywin always wanted most. One could say that they are almost the exact opposites of each other, so therefore I would say the lesson is that you need a balance between the two. To much blind honour is dangerous, but too much deception, power and scare tactics is just as dangerous, and yet all of these qualities are also useful if executed correctly. 

 

Varys is just like Littlefinger he certainly does not care for the good of the realm, otherwise he would not be supporting the Targaryens, for the most part they have been horrible rulers. Varys cares about his own agenda, he just appears less slimy then Littlefinger.  

Edited April 29, 2015 by Boudicea

[ulkis]

I hope that's not the case. I felt like Ned's death and subsequent Stark events have been hammering away the point that honor and the traditional narrative of a main character/characters eventually coming out on top was being turned on it's head. Why should any of the Starks end up the final victor other than the viewers being weened that way in other stories?

 

I don't need the Starks to win anything per se . . . I just want the remaining siblings reunited, even if briefly.

[Hecate7]

I just want to know where the direwolves originally came from.

[ulkis]

I figured they were a gift from the old gods.

[SourK]

The castle in the swamp that they were looking down upon from up on that bluff is called Moat Cailin. It's the castle that the Boltons used Theon to take back from the Iron Islanders last season. It appeared in the opening credits, if that helps you to place it.  It's in a strategic position as the gateway to the North, which is why Sansa would have passed through it before on her way south to King's Landing and why the Boltons needed to reclaim it before they could get their army back home.

Later on in the episode, they entered Winterfell. ... Not only was it confusing as all hell (I had to rewatch the episode to convince myself that they really had traveled from one castle to the other between scenes), but it also seemed pretty severely downplayed dramatically.

 

I firuged out where they were, but I agree it was a weird jump. My feeling, watching it, was that there was probably either a scene in between those two points that got cut, or the scene at Castle Swamp was originally supposed to be in a different episode from the scenes at Winterfell, and they got moved closer together. .

[Lady S.]

I just want to know where the direwolves originally came from.

I thought they came from beyond the wall, but the real question is mama wolf got past that wall. Did she go through the gate at the Nightfort like Bran or was she an amazing mountain climber or a strong enough swimmer to cross a frozen bay? Or did Creepy Tree Dude have a human agent or a child of the forest guiding her as Bran was guided the opposite way?

[JTMacc99]

I figured they were a gift from the old gods.

Or a reputable breeder.  I hope they didn't come from a puppy mill.

[Elkins]

My feeling, watching it, was that there was probably either a scene in between those two points that got cut, or the scene at Castle Swamp was originally supposed to be in a different episode from the scenes at Winterfell, and they got moved closer together. .

That's quite likely. They do move scenes around quite a bit even up to the editing stage. Scenes often seem to wind up in different episodes than originally intended.

I've found that even when binge-watched, episode breaks do a much better job of implying time passing than scene changes do.

[TheLastKidPicked]

Something struck everyone in our house about this season:  The characters are actually relateable to people in modern society.  Sounds crazy, but think about it:

 

Tywin Lannister--  The evil boss everybody hates, and with good reason...  but we all suspect that without him the company would fall apart within a year.

 

The Lannister Dynasty--  The family that has the biggest house in town, has a wing in the hospital named after them, and yet nobody can figure out their source of income.  When it all comes crashing down we find out how much debt the family really had.

 

Cersei Lannister--  The soccer mom we are all scared of.  Her kid can do no wrong and nothing is the kid's fault.  Everybody is scared to get on her bad side.

 

The Tyrells--  A family with so much money that they seem to flounder around from one bad business venture to the next (Such as marrying Tommen).

 

Margery Tyrell--  A woman who grew up with enough money and privilege that she's never been intimidated by a woman like Cersei.  TIme will tell if this will work out to her advantage or be a disaster.

 

Tommen--  "It happened so fast"  Ha-- what more can you say about Tommen.