S04.E17: Best Laid Plans

[coops]

One thing I just thought of that confuses me is why didn't Maleficent just ask Cruella and Ursula what happened to her baby? Presumably they all landed in our world together? Surely they would have known its fate or at least if it was a boy or girl. Why did she have to wait to do a deal with Rumple to find out?

[pezgirl7]

One thing I just thought of that confuses me is why didn't Maleficent just ask Cruella and Ursula what happened to her baby? Presumably they all landed in our world together? Surely they would have known its fate or at least if it was a boy or girl. Why did she have to wait to do a deal with Rumple to find out?

 

Mal probably didn't know they fell through the portal with her baby, but you'd think they would have told her! I also have issues with her hardly fighting to get the egg back. She could have chased after them. I also have issues with what Snow and Charming did not being their darkest secret, which they would have had to tell at the Echo cave. I guess whatever is good for the story being told at the time, who cares about continuity!

 

I also feel bad for Henry since he wasn't there when the author was released. He's had his nose in that book for ages, and has been all about Operation Mongoose. I hope he's a bit angry at Emma and his grandparents the next time he sees them.

[iMonrey]

 

In the flashback, why didn't Maleficent run after Snow and Charming, put Charming to sleep, and then use some magic to impede Snow with the egg?

 

It's worse than that. Remember back in S1 when Regina forced Maleficent to give her the Dark Curse? Well  . . . it turns out that Maleficent can simply put Regina to sleep with a wave of her hand. So - why the hell didn't she do that back when Regina made her give up the Dark Curse???

 

This is really a consistent problem with any show where characters have magic powers but it's especially egregious on this show. We've seen characters do all sorts of magical things but then when the time comes where they'd really need those powers they are nowhere to be seen. I just don't buy for a minute that Maleficent would just stand there and allow Charming and Snow to walk off with her egg baby. We've seen her teleport, or vaporate, or "poof" herself or whatever they call it on this show. Why didn't she follow them, grab the egg and poof away? Why did Cruella and Ursula show up at the Sorcerer's hut instead of Maleficent herself? For that matter, why were Cruella and Ursula outside standing guard for Maleficent? Didn't they have anything better to do? WTH is Ursula even doing out of the water when she's in the Enchanted Forest?

 

As someone above explained, Kitsis and Horowitz may be effective script writers but they are horrible, horrible story-tellers.

[Rumsy4]

For me, there's a lot of room between "never does anything wrong ever," and "deliberately fucks up the karma of another baby so their baby could maaaaybe be good." There's two big issues I have overall. The first is that they basically decided to pretend this horrible fucked up thing they did never happened. Which makes a lot of their actions in past episodes look retroactively creepy and messed up. 

 

But does every line out of [snow's] mouth have to be so sanctimonious and preachy? It dehumanizes her for me - her happy mode is sugar sweet; unhappy is self-righteous.

 

They took someone’s child even if they thought the child was a sentient puppy or something (either way they knew it was Maleficents chlid. They are rationalizing if they didn't think part of it wasn't at least human and could change to human form especially considering that's exactly what Mal can do). They then turned the child into Cujo and furthermore banished the child alone to another realm. 

 

Agree with all these points. Snow and Charming were shown as stupid and selfish. I don't agree with Snow's assessment that what they did was brave but unkind. It was blatant cowardice and cruelty. I don't buy this BS that Snow and Charming did not suspect the egg!baby would be human. They have both seen Mal transform back and forth between her human and dragon form, and it must be generally known that dwarfs hatch from eggs (no dwarf women or babies). Even if the egg had hatched a dragon or a giant scorpion, it would still have been a blank slate, and did not deserve to have all the potential for Darkness from another baby dumped into it. Snow sounded so freaking self-righteous and hypocritical when she made a blanket statement that Mal's baby would grown up to be a monster like her. If she believed that, then it was reckless to dump more darkness into it. Also, doesn't that mean that a child born to "heroes" like them would also grow up be a hero? Did she even listen to what the Apprentice said about Free Will? It now seems likely that Emma ended up alone in the Real World as a price for what they did to Mal's baby. 

 

Also, what did Snow and Charming do to make up for what they did to Mal? Instead of making flowery speeches about being good henceforth, they should have tried their best to track down Mal's baby and bring it back. But they just wrote it off as a mistake. They do this terrible thing, and it didn't this come up when David tried to get Snow to not kill Cora, or at the Echo Cave? The Show has finally succeeded in ruining Snow and Charming. These are not the people we knew--flawed but good people. These new retconned versions are not. 

[legaleagle53]

So the baby is named Lilith, huh?  Hope she invades Storybrooke with a big ass women's music fair.

 

Lily, not Lilith.

[Daisy]

I'm not watching, because I refuse to watch them ruin Snow and David....but I think Wyatt's storyline on Charmed made more sense than what I've read of this stuff.  The writing of Charmed got worse each season (I didn't even watch season eight), but at least with Wyatt, he was the most magical creature ever and his mother (whom he adored) was the tipping point for him to go from good to evil (as I recall).  And he had a brother who risked everything to save him.  That overall plot is way better than this story from what I can tell.  I'm so hoping the finale is good enough I can come back for season five lol.

 

With Wyatt, he was the uberest superpowered baby , but he was never once mentioned that he'd be "the greatest good" or the greatest evil, he was just the most powered magic baby. (Season 4 and 5). People started to go after him (ie kill him) because of that until they made the pact that no one would target him until he was like .. 18 or something. (this was v. early season 5). the whole. "OH MAH GAWD! WYATT CAN BE EVOL, WHAT DO WE DO?!" was this huge thing in season 6, and it basically turned out that the actions of someone that Wyatt/Charmed ones trusted, and learning to do whatever it took to survive "turned him Evil." (which was dumb LOL). 

And how this ties in with ONCE it's very much like "well, Emma can be dark" well. sure. because it's a choice. she could be dark, and stay there, she could be light and stay there, she could be grey. And it drives me so nuts that it never once hit anyone that it's a decision that Emma needed to make for herself (forget how Snowing raised her. Like Regina was nice and sweet and she had a cow for a mom. She chose to be evil because she lost everything she cared about and went with that. SNOW of all people freaking should have known that).

And this is why I''m not liking Emma's temper tantrum either. Who gives a flying crap that Snowing lied to you. Be mad that they were stupid, be mad that they did that to Mal's eggling etc. (I could see that).but like... I don't know. lIke I don't really get why Emma was mad. (I might have to re-watch the previous episodes. and I don't want to), to the point she'd be stupid and put people in danger because she's once again having a moment of "oh you mean, people don't believe in me?" I'm sorry. get over it now. Hook loves and adores you. Henry loves and adores you... and I get there's the whole "I was an orphan and here are my parents.." but at the same time, move on. (or keep them at arms length). 

 

I would really though like them to have a come to Jesus moment how Snowing treats Emma like a deus ex machina. (which is why Neal (ugh). should really be having more action baby or not). 

[DeLurker]

 

Lily, not Lilith.

I thought the Dad adopting the baby said she was going to be named Lilith and then called her Lily the next time he cooed at her.

[YaddaYadda]

I thought the Dad adopting the baby said she was going to be named Lilith and then called her Lily the next time he cooed at her.

 

That's exactly what he said.

[Mari]

Glinda the Useless told Snow she held two pure hearts.  She must be right since, Glinda is a purveyor of light magic.  Meanwhile, Maleficent is terrible and evil, so she's right that Emma can turn evil.  This show has some fucked up logic.  

Well, if we're blunt about it, Glinda was all reputation, little actual skill and power.

 

She may have had no clue what she was talking about.

[KingOfHearts]

 

She may have had no clue what she was talking about.

"Well you made it through my door! I guess it must be pure...right?"

Edited March 30, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Serena]

Plot twist: that door wasn't for clean hearts, but for clean people. Regina doesn't shower, and that's why she couldn't pass!

[Shanna Marie]

Actually, the Apprentice said toward the end that darkness could born in Emma again if the Charmings didn't raise her to follow the right path, which they didn't, thus darkness was born in her again and she was right back to where she started when just a fetus. Emma simply used free will to choose the right path of her own accord. It all just emphasizes how tragically pointless the whole ordeal with Maleficent's child was, and how STUPID the Charmings (mainly Snow) were by not just leaving Emma as she was to start with.

Oh, right, I guess I missed that while my head was exploding. It just makes this all the worse. This show is terrible about devoting massive amounts of screen time and angst to things that they then brush aside and make meaningless. So they go through this whole ritual to move all the evil to one baby and all the good to the other, and then both can pretty much still end up the same way they started.

 

But I'm starting to think that maybe it was for the best that the Charmings didn't raise Emma. A lot of her strength, moral character and compassion have come from all the trials she went through. If she'd grown up a pampered princess in a palace, she might not have had the same strength, especially if she had a helicopter mother who was terrified that she was going to turn out evil hovering over her every move. That's an Emma who might have been a villain to rival Regina.

 

So what was wrong with August? Dutch Elm disease? They didn't take him to the hospital? They just took him to the empty mansion?

I thought he was at the convent, which is similar to the mansion, but not the same place, since Henry and the others were later running around at the mansion. I'm not sure why they took a sick man to the convent instead of the hospital.

 

Finally, it's also the way the show frames evil done to a villain is worse than the evil deeds done by actual, consistently evil, characters.

It's part of that bizarre hero/villain double standard. The hero doing something wrong is ten times worse than the villain doing something wrong, and the hero doing something that hurts a villain is far, far worse than anything the villain does to a hero. It sometimes feels like the heroes could burn down a village and it wouldn't be seen as such a bad deed as giving a villain a mean look. The heroes also have to take all responsibility for their bad deeds, while the villains get to blame the heroes for making them do it.

 

She said that being with Henry, Roland and Robin (for like a week)

More like maybe fifteen minutes, since Henry only got his memories back the day before Marian returned. The only place in the timeline I can fit in time for them to have all gotten together might have been right after Henry got his memories back and before he visited his father's grave and Snow went into labor. Which points out the insanity of Regina clinging to something that probably never happened as the closest she's come to happiness. Or maybe she means the thirty seconds in which she, Robin and Roland came to the diner after getting ice cream, and Henry was also in the room, before Robin noticed Marian.

 

Also, am I the only one who is waiting for a Cruella commentary on Hook and not getting it?  I find it odd that she made comments on Rumple's height, David's brains and chiseled jaw, August's scruff, and nothing on sleeping Hook?

I know! I kept waiting during that whole scene when she was going on about wanting to strangle Emma for her to comment about Hook. I was rather disappointed, since she bothered to comment on August.

 

And what about the Jolly Roger? She's back, and has nobody noticed? I guess she's expensive to work with. Didn't they have problems with the boat on a barge that they can pull up next to the docks and shoot on location, so they only have the one they can use in the studio where they have to CGI the scenery? But someone could have at least said something about Hook having his ship back. Then again, I suppose this is all the same day as the previous episode, since Hook seems to have gone straight to Emma to tell her what Ursula said. And can I get a "Glory, Hallelujah!" about for once someone on this show just going and telling someone something instead of him angsting about it and being afraid to tell her?

[KingOfHearts]

 

Plot twist: that door wasn't for clean hearts, but for clean people. Regina doesn't shower, and that's why she couldn't pass!

Maybe it just checks for cleavage. 

[DeLurker]

 

It's part of that bizarre hero/villain double standard. The hero doing something wrong is ten times worse than the villain doing something wrong, and the hero doing something that hurts a villain is far, far worse than anything the villain does to a hero.

And when the villain does something good, it deserves a parade.

 

Kinda like how a lot of parents react to the Perfect Child breaking a rule versus the Black Sheep breaking the same rule.

[Actionmage]

So basically, these "authors" are more like prophets who are tasked with recording important events.

 

I think a more apt description of what the characters do might be Historical Stenographer/Transcriptionist. They make the history more entertaining to read, so still Authors, but The Transcriptionist isn't as sexy sounding or someone might think Jason Statham was going to pop in for a moment. *g*

 

Well  . . . it turns out that Maleficent can simply put Regina to sleep with a wave of her hand. So - why the hell didn't she do that back when Regina made her give up the Dark Curse???

 

 

Because it wasn't in the script! ;p

 

Has there ever been a good dragon? Have we ever seen a good dragon? Every time we've seen them on this show, they've been terrorizing villages.

 

Because in their small sample of dragons ( Mal), Snowing were so certain that creatures that are sentient and can take human form and speak human language could never be reasoned with or be worthy of redemption?

 

I am done watching this show because the show's authors are expecting me to believe and accept not just flawed heroes, but heroes, who have been shown to be anything but villainous, who are actively evil towards an infant in the name of their unborn infant? No. I am supposed to just go along with a story in which the shown in-show heroes who are actually clever and thoughtful and can see past their noses in Season 1 and under a curse, are mindless, idiotic non-listeners  who wouldn't   know a warning if it introduced itself as such.   

 

As others have said, flawed heroes? Super! Love 'em. This isn't flawed; it's railroaded. There was no other outcome that Snowing were allowed, by the show's writers. They had a point to make and it's been made: heroes are no different from villains, so why label anyone good or bad? We're all the same! There is no nuance in last night's episode, but we had one just the week before? 

 

I have no more legs for A&E to pull.

[Primetimer]

Snow White, Prince Charming, and their Storybrooke equivalents consider turning to the dark side to save their daughter.

Read the story

[Writing Wrongs]

I think this show is starting to circle the portal.

[iMonrey]

 

I'm not sure why they took a sick man to the convent instead of the hospital.

 

I'm not sure anyone is better off in the hospital than they would be in the convent. 

 

I really don't understand Snow and Charming's panic over the prophesy that Emma had the potential for great good or great evil. Um, you mean like every other human on earth? Their reaction is just way overblown, especially considering the source.

[MaiLuna]

What A&E said about us now looking at the series in a different way after this it's true. But it's totally something they came up with this arc in favor of the plot. I'm pretty sure when they wrote the pilot they were not thinking "Snow and Charming just sent Maleficen't egg baby to the LwM and that's why they're trying to be extra good!"

 

What I hate more about what Snow & Charming is that they care more about Emma being good than her wellbeing & happiness. But that's why they've always done so it's consistent. They only care about her saviour status and magic when it's gonna save them. I hope at least Emma now actually deals with this and it isn't instantly resolved by again showing her they love her just because of her white magic.

 

I do not like the Peddler Author having the power to force people to do things. Hopefully he didn't do much before being trapped. He didn't force the Charmings though? They need to stop trusting strangers. If they hadn't trust Maleficent, the Peddler and the Apprentice none of this would've happened. They could've just raised Emma to be good since everyone has the potential of evil or good, duh. They took the easy way out. And if Emma had turned "evil", would they have not loved her?

 

They are not like the villains anyway, because of the big difference that they felt bad about what they did. Until I see Regina feeling actual remorse, I won't be convinced she's good just because she's not killing people anymore.

 

In Tumblr everyone was so excited about cute, jealous Hook. I do not like Hook being jealous. That means he is not secure in his relationship with Emma and I can't really blame him.

[YaddaYadda]

I guess we are to assume that whatever is wrong with August is more magical than medical.

 

That's pretty much what Shady said.  She said that August had been changed by magic too often.  He seemed to be doing much better by the end of the episode though.

 

ETA - 

 

Has anyone mentioned how Rumple gives no fucks about Henry at all?  You know, the child he was planning on kidnapping during 4A, whisk him away and Belle, erase his memory so that he can be his hero?  Henry has the book, Henry has the page.  Let's go get Henry, let's be persuasive with him if doesn't comply.

 

Rumple is such an ass!

Edited March 30, 2015 by YaddaYadda

[snarkastic]

That's pretty much what Shady said.  She said that August had been changed by magic too often.  He seemed to be doing much better by the end of the episode though.

 

He just needed a good nap. Thanks for the sleeping spell, Mal!

[stealinghome]

As someone above explained, Kitsis and Horowitz may be effective script writers but they are horrible, horrible story-tellers.

Are they even that effective of script writers? Their last few outings have been "Heroes and Villains" and "Darkness on the Edge of Town," both of which were underwhelming; "The Snow Queen," which was good; and "A Tale of Two Sisters," which was...okay. In S3, they wrote the opener, Ariel, Going Home, New York City Serenade, A Curious Thing, and the last hour of the finale. Going Home was very good, A Curious Thing was awful aside from Goodwin and Dallas' acting, and the rest of the episodes were passable but nothing special.

 

Frankly, I think their scriptwriting skills have devolved alongside the show. Their writing in the Pilot or "The Heart is a Lonely Hunter" or "The Land Without Magic" or even "The Stable Boy" was much better (though for honesty's sake, we should also remember they wrote "Dreamy"...but oh, to be back in the days when they were capable of writing Regina as a a little sympathetic but weren't excusing/whitewashing/retconning/etc her evil).

 

I thought he was at the convent, which is similar to the mansion, but not the same place, since Henry and the others were later running around at the mansion. I'm not sure why they took a sick man to the convent instead of the hospital.

Probably they were hoping the fairies could heal him, given that whatever was ailing him was likely magical in nature.

 

Because in their small sample of dragons ( Mal), Snowing were so certain that creatures that are sentient and can take human form and speak human language could never be reasoned with or be worthy of redemption?

Not entirely true--David slew a dragon in 1x06 that AFAWK was just a dragon (and terrorizing several villages). The way the show has always talked about them, it's been like dragons are animals, and Mal is singular in being able to turn into one. Though I agree that they probably should have at least suspected that Mal would have a shapeshifter baby (but then as I write that, I'm really not sure anyone would look at an egg and think a human baby was coming out of that).

Edited March 30, 2015 by stealinghome

[DeLurker]

Has anyone mentioned how Rumple gives no fucks about Henry at all?  You know, the child is was planning on kidnapping during 4A, whisk him away and Belle, erase his memory so that he can be his hero?  Henry has the book, Henry has the page.  Let's go get Henry, let's be persuasive with him if doesn't comply.

 

Rumple is such an ass!

But I think he's pretty consistent - he's always got an angle and probably has never done anything unless it somehow benefitted him.  I totally love Rumple as is - he really has made no effort at all this redemption crap.

[Actionmage]

Not entirely true--David slew a dragon in 1x06 that AFAWK was just a dragon (and terrorizing several villages).

 

Thank you for this. ^  I knew there had to be at least one more, and the dragony creature  (yaugwai?) that Philip was turned into. There was a very, very small sample of actual dragons that Snow and David had faced in person, was my point. That they supposedly never thought that there was the possibility of a good one is hard to believe.

 

My anger and frustration truly is aimed square at Adam & Eddie and what they expect their writers to spin into gold. It ain't straw. 

 

I'll  read you wonderful folks' posts, even if I disagree with your points, because you all keep me thinking and striving to be open-minded.

 

edited: no probably; ya'll make my days! *g*

Edited March 30, 2015 by Actionmage

[Shanna Marie]

I need the pattern for the hat baby Emma was wearing in David's vision. Or maybe I need a clear still from the episode to study and create the pattern. I'm not sure it's worth watching the episode again to see it.

 

I'm pretty sure when they wrote the pilot they were not thinking "Snow and Charming just sent Maleficen't egg baby to the LwM and that's why they're trying to be extra good!"

The whole thing stinks of retcon and is so wildly inconsistent with what's been presented before. You'd think Mal would have been right alongside Regina in helping her get revenge. One reason Regina had to cast the curse was because of the spell put on her to keep her from harming Snow in their world. But Mal was under no such restrictions, so why didn't they tag-team? (Or maybe Mal did try to kill Snow and Regina turned her into a dragon to keep her from stealing her fun -- but then Regina would have known before this arc that Mal hated Snow.) Then there was the "pure of heart" door thing. And the Echo Caves -- surely this would have been a bigger, worse secret. The bridge shouldn't have formed until they spilled this one. The "you aren't really what I wanted, so I want another baby" thing pales in comparison to "we were afraid you were going to be born evil, so we stole someone else's baby, had it darkened, and let it be sent to another world." "I was poisoned and I didn't tell you" doesn't even come into the same ballpark. Or does it not count as a secret since both Snow and David knew, and it only worked if no one else knew. Except Hook knew about David, so that hand-wave doesn't work there.

 

But I can't even hate Snow and David because it's so out of left field for the kind of people we've seen them be, both in the past before this incident happened and in the time afterward, that I can't make myself believe they really did it. It was pod people territory. I'd love to know what the actors thought and how they rationalized it in order to play it because it was so off from the characters they've been playing. I think I'd have had to mentally create another character entirely to make myself say those lines because I wouldn't have been able to make Snow do it. This whole thing just illustrates this show's greatest weakness, which is that it sacrifices character and even plot in favor of Big!Surprises, and we're definitely in Alien Vampire Bunny territory here.

 

I think I'm in train wreck territory here. I'm curious to see how bad it gets rather than really caring about the story anymore.

[Curio]

I think I'm in train wreck territory here. I'm curious to see how bad it gets rather than really caring about the story anymore.

 

Ditto. All of the stories I actually want to see played out on screen (e.g., Hook getting his heart restored by Emma, how Belle and Will somehow came to start dating, what the Jolly Roger was up to while she was under Blackbeard's command, and the full conversation of Snow and Charming's confession to Emma about their secret past) always get pushed off into Offscreenville, so I'm basically just watching how terribly this author plot falls apart at this point.

[FabulousTater]

In Tumblr everyone was so excited about cute, jealous Hook. I do not like Hook being jealous. That means he is not secure in his relationship with Emma and I can't really blame him.

I don’t like the idea of blaming Emma for Hook’s insecurities because these insecurities of his are something internal to character and a result of his past not because of something Emma has done to him. Like, in the last week’s episode, Emma was unsure about her place in Hook’s happiness and Hook put that insecurity to rest because Emma is the type of person that needs to see AND hear things to truly believe it -- and that's because of her past not because she doesn't trust Hook or because he's done something wrong. I don’t blame Hook for Emma’s insecurities in those scenes anymore than I would blame Emma for Hook's jealousy about August. Both Emma and Hook are insecure because of their pasts and not because of each other. But, what is cool about their relationship is that they are both good at helping each other get through those insecurities together.

 

In this episode alone we saw plenty of moments when Emma comforted Hook when he was worried or feeling insecure. When Hook’s worried Emma will go dark she tries her best to soothe his fears. She assures him that she won’t allow others to determine her choices and she uses touch and affection to allay his fears — she caresses his face, holds him, and hugs him. It’s a very tender and intimate moment. Way better than some endless monologue IMO. Then later when Hook’s jealousy about August rears it’s head, Emma explains to him why August is important to her; she shares details of her past and herself that she shares with no one else, and let’s him know that her feelings of concern for August are nothing more than what you would feel for a friend. Emma’s practically cuddled by Hook’s side saying you have nothing to worry about, comforting him the best way she knows how.

Emma has always been someone who demonstrates what she feels with actions -- she's an action speaks louder than words person. Always. And not being as eloquent and monologuing about her feelings for him doesn’t mean she feels for him any less than if she wrote him a sonnet and recited it out loud during Slam Poetry Night at Granny’s.

Edited March 30, 2015 by FabulousTater

[kili]

And the Echo Caves -- surely this would have been a bigger, worse secret. The bridge shouldn't have formed until they spilled this one. The "you aren't really what I wanted, so I want another baby" thing pales in comparison to "we were afraid you were going to be born evil, so we stole someone else's baby, had it darkened, and let it be sent to another world."

 

I thought maybe we could fanwank this by saying that the "Egg-napping" thing wasn't a true secret because two people in the cave knew about it (Snow and Charming). But, two people knew Charming's secret and the cave accepted that (Charming and Hook).

 

This episode requires WAY too much fanwanking:

- why were Urusla and Cruella guarding the entrance to the cave and why were they cold? Mal breaths fire.

- why didn't Mal pursue Snow and Charming? They would have to put the egg down sometime - at least kill them after they hurt the egg

- how did Urusla and Cruella find Snowing, but Mal did not?

- why did Urusla and Cruella not take care of Lily?

- why did Ursula and Cruella not at least tell Mal about Lily being in our world?

- why did  Ursula and Cruella not age?

- why wasn't this not Snowing's darkest secret in Echo Cave?

- why didn't Regina hear about any of this?

- what kind of guarantee was this spell when it was no guarantee at all? Was the Apprentice SB job selling extended warranties at Best Buy?

- who is the Author that took over after this  Peddler Author?

- whose actions were controlled by the Peddler Author?

- why did Snowing have a pure heart to entire the door?

- why did Charming not have black spots on his heart when he was sacrificed?

-  why let the Peddler Author out when he clearly isn't the Author mucking with Regina's happy endings?

- why does this Author plot seem to be contradicted every episode but nobody buys a clue and keeps thinking he will solve all of Regina's problems?

Edited March 30, 2015 by kili

[KingOfHearts]

 

In Tumblr everyone was so excited about cute, jealous Hook.

I forgot about this scene. Thought it was dumb. I find Wooden Swan to be so absurd and gross at this point that for Hook to see him as a possible threat just doesn't register well in the mind. It felt like a fan service to the a few crazy people who've kept watching since S1/S2.

 

Pretty "meh" on the secret reveal to Emma. Surely there could have been a more creative way to expose it than for Snow's guilt to catch up to her. Even the way they did that could have been a whole lot better and more dramatic. Regina is the reason she decided to tell the truth. It wasn't because Emma was in danger or their own conviction for deceiving their daughter. After all the build-up, marketing and tension, we didn't even get to see the climax of it. Only the aftermath. Leave it to this show to pump up something only to conceal the finished product.

Edited March 30, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Joanh23]

ok so I hated what Snow & Charming did to Malificent & the baby - their logic was so messed up! And they had no faith in their own parenting skills as they were assuming they'd be raising Emma all along. That said I do think their chat in the nursery did a good job of explaining how they wanted to try and redeem themselves by being the best people they could be going forward. I thought Jennifer Morrison did an excellent job of showing how upset Emma was at her parents - especially the scene with August you could really see Emma's anger and pain at Snow. I'm guessing Rumple is somehow involved in giving the author (back in the Enchanted forest)the magic quill that lets him determine people's faith. Not looking forward to the next episode - I don't really care about Robin or Zelena........

[pezgirl7]

I forgot about this scene. Thought it was dumb. I find Wooden Swan to be so absurd and gross at this point that for Hook to see him as a possible threat just doesn't register well in the mind. It felt like a fan service to the a few crazy people who've kept watching since S1/S2.

 

I think that whole scene was there for Emma to tell Hook about Lily, so the audience would be reminded of her name when she was mentioned later in the episode. But I thought the whole scene was cute, and liked seeing Emma reassure Hook and share more of her past. And on a shallow note, a lot of CS fans like jealous Hook, cause they think it's adorable.

[kili]

I thought Jennifer Morrison did an excellent job of showing how upset Emma was at her parents

 

I understand Emma being mad at her parents, but it still does not exactly fit well with how she is so quick to forgive Regina for burning her mother at the stake to the point of grovelling for forgiveness from Regina the next day because she (Emma)  saved Marian's life..

 

I know that she has come to expect more from her parents, but come on. Regina is thousands of times more evil and Emma spends her every waking moment trying to get her a happy ending. She could extend some of that level of forgiveness to her own parents.  Even Hook gets a relative free pass for doing evil things and lying to her about it (he got frosted out for an afternoon after the Zelena lip curse thing).

[YaddaYadda]

So, does Emma show Mal the tape of Lily?

 

Jealous Hook probably came from him not really knowing anything about August.  Once she explained it, he was over it.  At the docks, he said your friend will be okay which showed completely acceptance.

[Shanna Marie]

Jealous Hook probably came from him not really knowing anything about August.

Since Emma had to explain August's role in her life here, I seriously doubt he knew anything about August being the one to con Neal into sending her to jail. All he knows is that this guy hasn't been in the picture since before he and Emma were anywhere near being an item, and now he's back and she's very happy about this. Better to clarify what's up than to assume the worst and sulk about it or do any of those wacky misunderstanding plots where he just assumes he was plan B and August was plan A and now that August is back he removes himself from the picture without realizing that they were just friends -- or worse, gets mad at her and angrily breaks up with her about it.

 

But I think this also comes back to his self-loathing and his overall self image. He admitted in the previous episode that he was worried about being a former villain and what that meant about his happy ending. If he's afraid he doesn't merit a happy ending, then he might be afraid he'd lose her, so another guy who doesn't appear to have been a villain (since he doesn't know the whole story) might look like a threat because he might be the one coming into her life to give her a happy ending with a non-villain while Hook loses his happy ending. He's just seen Regina lose Robin when Marian came back into his life, and this situation might look similar to him.

[FabulousTater]

I understand Emma being mad at her parents, but it still does not exactly fit well with how she is so quick to forgive Regina for burning her mother at the stake to the point of grovelling for forgiveness from Regina the next day because she (Emma)  saved Marian's life..

I know that she has come to expect more from her parents, but come on. Regina is thousands of times more evil and Emma spends her every waking moment trying to get her a happy ending. She could extend some of that level of forgiveness to her own parents. Even Hook gets a relative free pass for doing evil things and lying to her about it (he got frosted out for an afternoon after the Zelena lip curse thing).

I think it all comes down to a matter of the level of trust, and the breach of hard earned, implict trust is something that's hugely hurtful to Emma.

 

Emma trusts Regina, but only so far. She's trying to be her friend (or considers her friend now) but that's miles away from Regina being completely trusted and living inside what I call the "Emma Zone of Trust". Like, if Regina were to betray Emma now, she'd be disappointed but also like, "Well, I should've known." There are select few that have been let in behind Emma's walls, few with which she has completely removed her armor, trusts them implicitly, and believes the best in them no matter what her instincts say. And her parents were inside that zone of trust. Emma chose to stop protecting herself around them, to be open and completely trust them that they wouldn't hurt her, but within weeks of her deciding that she was going to let them into her life completely without hestitation, they betrayed that trust.

 

It wasn't just that Snowing did something terrible in the past, because I'm sure that's a big part of it, it's also that Emma asked them repeatedly "Why do you have a problem with these villains? What's going on? What aren't you telling me?" And every time they lied to her. Over and over and over they lied and decieved her to the point that Emma felt she was going just a tad crazy because her instincts were telling her the opposite. Snowing abused the trust that Emma -- after experiencing a lifetime of so much personal betrayal -- had placed in them, and they did so to protect their lie and conceal their guilt. They say they did it to "protect" Emma, but lbr, they did it to protect themselves. And I can only imagine how many times Emma has been told by others that have used her that they did something hurtful to her because "We did it for your own good, Emma." *cough*Nealfire*cough*, when in truth they were protecting themselves. Hell, at one point, Emma even asked Snowing point blank, "Why are these villains coming after us?" and Snow and Charming say, "Because we're heroes and they are villiains." (And all after overhearing Emma tell Hook that she knows he has a skeletons in his closet and that he's trying to be better, but not to lie to her about his past because that's something she's not okay with)

 

With Emma a monumental breach of trust of that sort from those she chooses to trust is what's truly hurtful. Nealfire's betrayal of Emma was a thousand times worse because she trusted him. She'd let him into her life and he stuck a knife in her back. Hook's past betrayals were done when they were frenemies, so she can cope with that. Plus, in those events she gave as good as she got. But if Hook were to betray her now (now that she's decided to let him in completely into her life, trust him completely, and now that he means so much to her) and his betrayal were along the lines of what Nealfire did to her (or her parents just did) she would be seriously hurt if not more so by that betrayal.

Edited March 31, 2015 by FabulousTater

[KingOfHearts]

The OUAT Facebook page posted the quote from August's speech at the end. Now I'm really confused. "It's a job, not a person, and the one trapped in here was just the last tasked with the great responsibility." So does that mean he was the last author? I'm wondering if he actually wrote the entire book before he was trapped, it just hadn't transpired yet. Since Blue confirmed he wrote multiple books, the one concerning the Best Laid Pland flashbacks might have been a different one from the main Storybook.

Edited March 30, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[LaChavalina]

Wow. I saw the initial posts right after this aired so I was prepared for a bad episode, but that still sucked. I'll put in my prediction for the season finale right now: Rumple somehow corrupted this author back in the day so that the author would: Remove Regina's happy ending and keep her evil, manipulate the Apprentice/Snow/Charming into acting bad, and in the process banish Mal's baby and put her on the warpath. So, in the end, we'll find out that this was all Rumple's fault and Snow/Charming will be absolved of blame. Blah. What was seen cannot be unseen, writers.

 

I'll add a couple of other points to the list of many, many inconsistencies between this episodes and other episodes:

1. We were told that Emma was attacked in a previous episode because she had the "greatest potential for evil," yet the the spell was cast on her to take her potential for evil and put it into Lily. So... wasn't that potential no longer there?
2. Based on what we saw of Lily before, she's not exactly a demon child. If she has all of Emma's potential for villany, wouldn't she be doing a little more than knocking off supermarkets and breaking into lake houses? She was actually kind of affectionate to Emma, even if she lied about being a foster kid.

[buildmeupbuttercup]

The episode was just "meh" for me. Nothing that got me stabby like Enter the Dragon but a glaring backslide after a really strong episode last week. I think I'm just resigned to the fact that they are determined to drag Snowing through the mud in the quest for their "groundbreaking" heroes = villains arc, which makes my season 1 Snowing-loving heart oh so sad. I also want to be enraged about not seeing Snowing explaining the secret to Emma but again I'm so beat down by us never seeing those scenes that I don't even expect it anymore. Thanks all of season 2's missed Charming family convos! 

 

The episode raised more questions than answers with that stupid author plot and why we have wasted so much screen time on it this season. I know Jane E wrote the episode so she's ultimately the "authority" on whose free will was controlled by peddler/author (btw once again here's a writer for this show issuing an explanation on effing Twitter because their writing is ineffective in conveying it onscreen) but since the peddler in canon directed Snowing to the Apprentice's cottage instead of letting them go home (which is what they were intending to do), then yeah I feel like he manipulated them and while not taking away their free will when it came down to stealing Mal's egg certainly put the events in motion to lead them that way. So I would argue that on my screen it appears Snowing were manipulated by the peddler/author as much, if not more, than the Apprentice. Whatever writers. 

 

A few other random points:

What questions did Emma think the author could answer? Why does Hook never take off his jacket? Come to think of it, nobody else does either - is there a heating problem in Storybrooke?

No it's because the Charmings had the fucking window open in the loft. In Maine. In (presumably) winter. When everyone is running around in their big coats all the time, the window in the loft was open. When Hook and Emma are having their jealousy talk you can see the curtains blowing and then when they watch the spell coming, confirmation that it was open more than just a crack.

 

--File this under things I never thought I would say back in 4A but...when do you think its time to call CPS for missing, inappropriately-named do over babies? I get babies are showkillers when you use them too much and that BDO was mainly a contrivance last season for GG's pregnancy and the Zelena/get-Emma-back-to-Storybrooke storyline but I'd take any two second passing reference by Snowing to prove they are capable of parenting/worrying about more than one of their children at a time. As an Emma stan, I'm thrilled that Snow is finally acknowledging her but geez.

 

--I don't really understand this secret "look" Regina gave Henry and "smart kid" bullshit about him giving the villains the fake page. Oooh he's so smart that he didn't give Regina (who he knows is a double agent) the page when the villains are standing right there in the same effing room. I mean bravo I guess for going against your Truest Stupid name but shit I don't see where there was any sleuthing, smarts, or deduction needed. All I could think of during that exchange was The Princess Bride:

Inigo: "Fezzik, you did something right."

Fezzik: "Don't worry, I won't let it go to my head"

 

--I never comment on makeup or wardrobe on this show but I hated the reddish eyeliner or whatever it was they had on Emma last night, that mimicked her "eevvii1lll eyes" from the Oscar promo. The liner looked "off" the whole episode, and let me tell you, if I noticed it's bad because I usually don't notice stuff like that because I'm usually too upset about the plot de jour that makes no sense.

[Zuleikha]

So I would argue that on my screen it appears Snowing were manipulated by the peddler/author as much, if not more, than the Apprentice. Whatever writers.

 

 

The way I understand events is that the Author pushed Snowing towards an outcome, but they made their choices with free will. However, the Author magically compelled the Apprentice to perform actions the Apprentice would not have chosen to do, which is why the Apprentice bound the Author in the book. I am going to withhold judgement on whether Jane E. needed to explain anything on Twitter in the sense that if she hadn't, no one would know by the end of the season, or whether she gave the answer on Twitter to placate fans early but more clarifications and explanations are coming in the next few episodes. We're clearly not done with this story.

 

The more I think about it, the more I really hope the Author's meddling and Snow/Charming stealing Maleficent's child is a result of Zelena's time travel spell. It won't rescue Snowing's characters, but it would address the inconsistencies with the Echo Cave secret and Glinda's door of pure heartedness. 

[Arnella]

Way back in discussions of the episode where Emma goes through the portal as a baby, I expressed incredulity that a healthy white baby found abandoned wouldn't have prospective adoptive parents coming out of the woodwork. 

 

The general consensus was that Emma put them off with some kind of magic aura.  Well, imagine the magic aura, not to mention extra added darkness, permeating Lilith and she was adopted no problem.  The writers just secretly hate Emma.

[FormerMod-a1]

IIRC, Emma did have someone that wanted her, she was with them for 2 years until they had a child of their own and stopped the adoption (they had been fostering her).  Babies are in high demand, 2+ years old? not so much.  

[Dani-Ellie]

Way back in discussions of the episode where Emma goes through the portal as a baby, I expressed incredulity that a healthy white baby found abandoned wouldn't have prospective adoptive parents coming out of the woodwork.

 

I think this has more to do with her first family keeping her until she was three and then returning her. If they fostered her until she was three but never adopted her and then sent her back into the system at three, you now have an angry, confused, scared toddler who is well beyond prime adoptable babyhood. An angry, confused, scared toddler is a difficult child and not every prospective parent wants to deal with that. When my sister-in-law and brother took custody of my nephew (my sister-in-law's sister's son), he was almost three. Blond hair, brown eyes, and the social worker told them flat out that he would have a bitch of a time getting placed because he was 1) almost three, and 2) "emotionally troubled." (He wasn't so much emotionally troubled as had never had stability in his young life and was angry and confused.)

 

ETA: Or what aquarian1 said, hehe.

Edited March 31, 2015 by Dani-Ellie

[Mari]

Yes.

Plus, the circumstances they were found would likely be different enough that Lily was more quickly legally adoptable.  The naked newborn in a weird place fits "unwanted abandoned baby" stereotype much better than "baby wrapped in handmade, handwoven blanket and basket, complete with embroidered name" does. 

[pcta]

I think he may be suffering from "Bobby Carlyle wants off the crap fest these writers are churning out - itis."

Good diagnosis. And a most understandable disease.

[Donny Ketchum]

Snow and Charming's mistake is still quite obviously a very big mistake, but I thought it was quite clear even before Snow's freakout when the egg started hatching that they thought there was a baby dragon in that egg, not a baby person. Their intent was to return the egg to Maleficent and they felt guilt for what they'd done. Again, it's not at all right, but it's not the evilest evil that ever eviled, either.

I don't think so, either.  But it was still quite horrible, and at least they both felt horrible and sick with themselves over what they did.  But it seems everyone's already made up their minds about them, so it is what it is.

Edited March 31, 2015 by Donny Ketchum

[KaveDweller]

Snow and Charming should have just captured a spider or something and had Emma's evil transferred into that.  Then just stepped on it or something.  I mean, I don't advocate animal cruelty, but that at least seems like a better plan than stealing someone's child.  They knew the Maleficent was pregnant before she turned into the dragon, so why didn't they consider the egg was human too?

[Camera One]

Shouldn't Blue be a tad more pissed/confused/WTH that Rumple was able to turn August back, using her own freak'in potion that he stole?  That doesn't even make sense.  If she made the potion, wouldn't she know how to turn him back into Adult August?  And if so, why could she only turn him into a boy in "Selfless Brave and True"?   And where the hell is Gepetto?  

Edited March 31, 2015 by Camera One

[KAOS Agent]

The more I think about it, the more I really hope the Author's meddling and Snow/Charming stealing Maleficent's child is a result of Zelena's time travel spell. It won't rescue Snowing's characters, but it would address the inconsistencies with the Echo Cave secret and Glinda's door of pure heartedness.

 

The writers have repeatedly stated in interviews after the S3 finale - including one in the last couple of weeks - that we have seen all of the effects of Emma/Hook in the past. Marian and Elsa's urn are the only things that were changed. That's it. Everything else in the book from the moment they left Snowing at the Troll Bridge returned to the way it had been - as we saw with the book's illustrations being that same. All of this with the peddler/apprentice occurred long after Emma/Hook had left, so it wouldn't even make sense to try to play it that way.

 

On a completely separate topic, I'm not sure why there is all this hate for Emma wanting to talk to the author and removing him from the page. They knew that Rumpel & Co were after the page. They had recently been placed under a sleeping curse and utterly helpless to stop them from retrieving it. Why wouldn't you open the page and try to talk to the author first? Sure, she was told he'd gone rogue, but by letting him out, he'd be much more apt to work with them than if they'd left him trapped and then Rumpel ultimately freed him. They had questions and he could provide the answers. It also seemed to me like the author was meddling by setting people on a different path to try to create drama. It didn't seem like he was actually able to force their actions by writing it. Seems reasonable that he's not some super powerful god, but rather a guy who takes dictation and got bored with that and tried to be a bit more creative. It's ridiculous that he got away from them though. Emma can make a magic forgery, but she can't create a sudden obstacle in front of the guy? I was actually pretty cool with her letting him free. The writers' contrivances so that he escaped was my problem. I'm so excited for hike through the woods searching for someone part 458451354. 

Edited March 31, 2015 by KAOS Agent

[Zuleikha]

The writers have repeatedly stated in interviews after the S3 finale - including one in the last couple of weeks - that we have seen all of the effects of Emma/Hook in the past....All of this with the peddler/apprentice occurred long after Emma/Hook had left, so it wouldn't even make sense to try to play it that way.

Butterfly effect. It's obviously not something direct like Marian, but their presence in the past affected the book. So I would love it if it was the inspiration for the Author to go rogue.

 

I don't hold writer interviews as the end-all-and-be-all answer since I've been lied to in the past by them, but I also don't think the Katsis and Horowitz Hot Seat interview (if that's what you're referring to as the recent one) was meant to address the idea of the Author changing things as a result. They were talking about Emma and Hook actually being present in actions. In any event, I'm not expecting the show to tie the two things together; I'm just hoping for it because it's the only way I can reconcile what we've seen of how Snow/Charming's hearts have been magically judged with them effectively cursing Maleficent's child.

[Dianthus]

I don't have too much hate for Emma freeing the Author either (aside from general hate for the whole Author plot overall). Emma was unjustly imprisoned herself for one thing. Sure she caught skips as a bail bonds person, but that didn't necessarily put her in judgment over them.

I'm not super crazy over jealousy as a rule, but Hook was even 'jealous' of his own past self, so I'll cut him some slack. 'sides, August aint gonna be around much longer. No way does Emma turn to some other guy after Hook laid it all out there for her.

Edited March 31, 2015 by Dianthus