S01.E07: Rosie

[Tara Ariano]

FINALLY.

 

Rosie tries to strengthen her case against Harry as the trial draws near, yet she alienates the few sympathizers she has left.

[missy jo]

I haven't watched all the episodes of this show, because it's the most boring thing ever, but what accent is the actress playing Rosie trying to pull off? As far as I could tell, she was aiming for a New Yawk accent when she was on the witness stand, and the rest of the episode she was poorly masking ... whatever her native accent is. It took me out of the show, but that's not very difficult to do.

[ottoDbusdriver]

School Principal: "We gave Hugo a timeout"
Rosie: "What's that ?"

 

No surprise there about Rosie.

 

Per that backstory, Rosie was a model -- really ?

 

The worst part of this episode -- Rosie's horrible accent.

 

After Rosie finished testifying and turned on the waterworks, Harry thought he was done for -- I was the of the opposite thought that Rosie sounded on the stand like a helicopter parent who was trying to extract her pound of flesh.  And then Harry's lawyer showed that she really was a bad parent.  The one question he needed to ask -- did Rosie regularly consume wine at home before nursing Hugo ?  Maybe Hugo is an alcoholic and doesn't even know it.

 

And the other question -- what were the results of Hugo's psych eval that Harry's defense team requested ?  It kind of looks like Hugo never went in for that psych evaluation -- because I think that's something Rosie would have brought up by now, and how it messed up her son even further.   Because Rosie still seems to think that Hugo has PTSD, while Hugo misses the man who used to give him lollipops (that would be Harry).

 

At the trial, Rosie was dressed like Jenny from Forrest Gump.

 

And what was with the "End ?" during the preview.  It's a 8-episode mini-series -- are they really going to do "Slap 2: The Quickening" ?

 

My prediction -- the only one that goes to jail is Richie.  For destruction of evidence.

[Armchair Critic]

Is Rosie supposed to be that unsympathetic? That kid doesn't even seem phased by the slap, didn't he say he wanted to see the guy who slapped him to get candy?

[Madding crowd]

I really can't stand the actress who plays Rosie, but are we supposed to feel some sympathy for her? Breastfeeding while drinking several glasses of wine? And she seems to try so hard to make it difficult for Hugo to be a regular child. I'm not sure I like anyone in the show and I don't feel connected to anyone either.

 

Richie has the right to show/not show his pictures, but they make every decision seem life or death on this show. Why can't he just say he doesn't want to be in the middle without it seeming like his life hangs in the balance? Odd, odd show.

[reggiejax]

School Principal: "We gave Hugo a timeout"

Rosie: "What's that ?"

 

I thought Rosie's response was "What?!", as in she was expressing horror that her precious little snowflake would ever have to endure such cruel and unusual punishment. I'll have to go back and listen. 

[Amethyst]

I knew Thanassis would fight dirty, but the wine/breastfeeding issue is a legit point.  The danger probably depends on how much you drink and the proof of the alcohol, but I don't know how many studies are geared towards children who are being breastfed, as opposed to babies and toddlers.

 

Is there a reason why Aisha and Rosie are the only ones on the stand?  I know Harry and Richie will testify next week, but what about everyone else at the party?  I could see how Rosie's testimony was winning until the "Hugo was just learning how to play baseball" part.  That's bullshit.  He was swinging the bat at the other kids because his turn was up and the other kids didn't want to play with him anymore.  

 

Rosie was right that Harry shouldn't have slapped Hugo, but it feels like they're sidestepping the root of Hugo's behavioral issues and how his parents choose to tolerate them.  Hector witnessed Hugo tearing up his house way before the slap even happened, so them pretending that Hugo's problems are only stemming from the incident is absurd.  No matter how weepy Rosie got, or how chivalrous Gary appeared to be showing up, it doesn't change that they're crap parents.  I'm surprised Thanassis didn't bring up that Hugo got kicked out of preschool, since he has people spying in the Weschlers.  Finally learned their last name.

 

Agree that Rosie's accent was awful this week.  Sometimes it sounded like she was from the Bronx, other times, there was a hint of Midwestern.  Really took me out of the scenes.

[Darian]

I thought Rosie's response was "What?!", as in she was expressing horror that her precious little snowflake would ever have to endure such cruel and unusual punishment. I'll have to go back and listen. 

She said, "A what?" Sounds more like she didn't know what it was, but I can't tell for sure. If she did know what it was, I am sure she react as you described. 

[izabella]

After Rosie finished testifying and turned on the waterworks, Harry thought he was done for -- I was the of the opposite thought that Rosie sounded on the stand like a helicopter parent who was trying to extract her pound of flesh.  And then Harry's lawyer showed that she really was a bad parent.  The one question he needed to ask -- did Rosie regularly consume wine at home before nursing Hugo ?  Maybe Hugo is an alcoholic and doesn't even know it.

 

I hadn't even thought of that, but that's a good question.  If she drinks often, maybe that's why Hugo is still so into breast feeding at his age. 

 

Rosie needs some therapy.  She's a wreck filled with anxiety focused on her son.

[ottoDbusdriver]

So, did Gary bang that "up and coming" artist from the gallery ?  They went back to her place, but Gary didn't seem too enthusiastic.

[JudyObscure]

At the trial, Rosie was dressed like Jenny from Forrest Gump

And even Robin Wright looked awful in it.  Between Rosie's awful hairdos, Aiesha's hair getting between her and her patients and Connie's oily clumps down her collar, I find the hair even more distracting than the floating accents.

 

I hated the Rosie/Gary marriage dynamics.  He had apparently taken a back seat to all Rosie's hysterical mothering and whining, no doubt because any suggestion of draconian methods like time-outs was shouted down.  So Rosie humiliates him for his un-bear like, beta male behavior by calling him a big wuss who doesn't earn enough money to meet her great expectations.  I thought that was probably the end of the marriage, but apparently either her emasculating tirade, or the art fan's adoration, did wonders for him and now he's there to offer the strong arm of comfort.

 

I hope the judge caught Rosie's contradiction in stating that no one should ever usurp her position as parent, immediately followed by saying it was okay to get drunk at the barbeque because there were lots of other parents there.  What could that mean other than that she expected them to help parent her  child?  If four glasses of wine is equal to four rum and cokes, I would be under the table laughing about something -- probably Rosie's hair.

[ElTVaddict]

Rosie stated while on the stand that she wanted Hugo to know that they are consequences to actions. That is funny when there is never any consequences for Hugo's actions. Hugo was rampaging through Hector and Aisha's home without facing consequences. Then when he does face a consequence for his action of putting other children in danger, they decide to sue the person that was teaching him the lesson. 

The pictures do not tell the whole story. He doesn't show Hugo swinging the bat wildly at the other children. They only show what happened when Harry reprimanded him. The pictures does it show when Hugo kicked Harry when he took the bat from him and that is what enlisted the slap.

 

Harry's goose is cooked the pictures does not show the whole picture.

[dumbdownus]

This show should have been called "Victims R Us"

[JudyObscure]

The pictures do not tell the whole story.

 

That's the truth.  Why doesn't someone testify about Hugo and the records and pulling up the flowers.  Those are perfect examples of the fact that Hugo's parents weren't making any effort to control him so someone else had to.

[applecrisp]

I just thought it interesting when Thanasis was talking to Aisha on the stand, that he was about to ask another thing and he looked at Sandi who shook her head no.

 

I thought it was telling and Sandi does have Aisha's back.

 

This is a frustrating show.  How many times have you been at the grocery store and kids are running all over the place, while their oblivious parents stand by.  I have experienced this at restaurants as well.  One time we were at this restaurant and there were two kids by the waitress station and they were putting their fingers in the water, poured for waiting customers.

 

I don't have any kids but I did work at a preschool for about 7 years.  Most of the kids were great, some were like Hugo and it always seemed like these kids took so much time and effort that some of these really sweet kids were given less attention.  

 

After I left the job,I remember walking out of the store if there were screaming children.  The problem is not Hugo it is his parents.

[Primetimer]

The Slap serves up an episode focused on the only character that matters, and it actually doesn't disappoint.

Read the story

[swimmyfish]

I'm surprised Thanassis didn't bring up that Hugo got kicked out of preschool, since he has people spying in the Weschlers.  Finally learned their last name.

 

 

I expected Thanassis to bring that up as well, but then I realized that Hugo getting kicked out of school is a post-slap event, which might then seem to strengthen Rosie's claim that the child has been scarred by the slap.

 

Maybe I'm a terrible person, or maybe it's sufferring from overuse, but every time anyone used the word "slap" on the stand, all I could think of is how unbelievably trivial all of this is. I mean, hitting children is terrible, but somehow 'slap' really fails to convey any real sense of seriousness or threat to me. Maybe that's just me.

 

Also, Rosie's insistence that the slap has made Hugo think that the world is not a safe place was ridiculous, because in many ways, the world is not a safe place. Hugo is probably a little young to be learning the lesson that sometimes a stranger will slap you in the face, but hey - at least he'll have a solid foundation for the disappointment that comes from discovering your parents are just total assholes.

[kassa]

At the trial, Rosie was dressed like Jenny from Forrest Gump

 

I thought she looked like a nurse at a fundamental polygamist compound.

[izabella]

Also, Rosie's insistence that the slap has made Hugo think that the world is not a safe place was ridiculous, because in many ways, the world is not a safe place. Hugo is probably a little young to be learning the lesson that sometimes a stranger will slap you in the face, but hey - at least he'll have a solid foundation for the disappointment that comes from discovering your parents are just total assholes.

 

If he never learns to respect other people rather than wildly swinging bats at them, he's going to keep getting slapped and then punched, restraining orders and eventually jail.

[walnutqueen]

Good thing the kid didn't make it to snack time on his first day of school.  ;-)

[callmebetty]

I really don't understand the type of person Rosie is. Are there really people this flighty in real life that live in this head in the clouds existence? That life has no consequences for anything you do. I guess the guilt she has for leaving Hugo alone when he was 7 months has caused this over compensation? But mostly baffled with what type of person she is she almost child like.

[CynicalGirl]

^ Well, I know one thing. She's the type of person I hate. 

[LucyEth]

Wow, I think Sandi may be the only character I like!  The nerve of Rosie to interrupt Hector's meeting with her stupid crap.  So now Gary is throwing Richie to the wolves in support of his lunatic wife and crazy son.  Any common sense and reason he had went out the window when crazy was sobbing on the stand.  I don't condone Harry slapping that kid, he had no right, but Rosie, Gary and Hugo are a disaster.  What will they gain from this?  Harry going to jail and his family being destroyed because they don't like him and are jealous of his money?  Aisha would enjoy that because she's just a bitch.  They should have just accepted his apology and moved on.  Did Rosie say they raised Hugo to be an equal, right, kids don't need guidance or discipline  at all, what a kook.  Can you tell I hate her!  Can't imagine what finally brings, I have not seen the Aussi version.  

[JudyObscure]

Rosie would be bad enough if she was just a childlike, hippie dippie, kook who is all about some sort of flowery, nurturing, freedom of expression, through art, sunshine, flowing dresses and butterflies.  But no.  She's not even honest about any of that because, I think, deep down she wants to trade in her soft, artistic husband for a macho, rich guy so she she can have all the expensive jewelry, clothes, cars, and big houses in the world, while telling everyone that it doesn't mean anything to her.  I think she secretly wants Harry.

[Palomar]

It IS fair game to bring up that both Rosie and her husband were drinking at the barbeque so there wasn't much parenting going on (and Hugo could have been affected by the breastfeeding).  I don't think a judge would allow the question about Rosie's post partum episode leaving her child though.  And, no Doctors report or even close up pictures showing the alleged resulting injuries?  There's no way in hell this wouldn't have gotten thrown out.  There is no case, just bad parenting and aggression on Harry's part (since Hugo's parents weren't doing THEIR job) that he obviously regrets. What would have happened if Harry did not intercede and Hugo hit one of the kids with the bat that did result in injuries.  Who would be on trial then?  I hate all these people! 

[Amethyst]

I just thought it interesting when Thanasis was talking to Aisha on the stand, that he was about to ask another thing and he looked at Sandi who shook her head no.

 

I thought it was telling and Sandi does have Aisha's back.

 

It's sad that Sandi is one of the legitimately interesting characters in the show, and we never get an episode on her, but we do get one on Connie and her late father, and Anouk and her pregnancy, because that stuff matters...why, exactly?  Connie's was somewhat relevant to the plot, I guess, but I can't say the same for Anouk.

 

Speaking of which, I RME so hard at Rosie's plaintive "I have to dress like myself, Anouk!" while they were shopping.  Because there's no balance between a cold looking black suit and the white dress that looks like it belongs in a commune.  

 

 I think, deep down she wants to trade in her soft, artistic husband for a macho, rich guy so she she can have all the expensive jewelry, clothes, cars, and big houses in the world, while telling everyone that it doesn't mean anything to her.  I think she secretly wants Harry.

 

I don't know Rosie wants Harry after what he did to Hugo, but I absolutely agree that she's a lot more shallow than she realizes.  She sounds like a real flake, going from career to career and now she has a man who will take care of her, so why rock the boat?  Gary's retort to her "You're such a 'free spirit'.  If people only knew what you really were" said it all.

 

Hugo is probably the first real thing that Rosie has ever committed to 100%, because it's not like she has anything else in her life to focus on.  She doesn't work, she doesn't have any real interests, so she puts all her time and energy into her son.

 

And the other question -- what were the results of Hugo's psych eval that Harry's defense team requested ?  It kind of looks like Hugo never went in for that psych evaluation -- because I think that's something Rosie would have brought up by now, and how it messed up her son even further.   Because Rosie still seems to think that Hugo has PTSD, while Hugo misses the man who used to give him lollipops (that would be Harry).

 

IKR?  They focus on so much extra stuff like dead parents and useless affairs instead the trial.  Since next week is the finale and focuses on Richie, I think the psych eval will just be a forgotten plot point.

 

 

And what was with the "End ?" during the preview.  It's a 8-episode mini-series -- are they really going to do "Slap 2: The Quickening" ?

 

The Slap 2: Electric Boogalo?

[yourmomiseasy]

I hope that Harry's PI is still following Hugo around and they know about him not even making it to snack time at school and call the principal to the stand as a surprise defense witness so she can testify about what a shitty parent Rosie is.  That parent principal conference was amazing.  How dare the school give that little shit head a time out!

 

I kind of liked Gary this episode just because it seemed like he hates Rosie and Hugo as much as I do, but really, he's part of the problem.  

 

Is Thanassis the first name or last name of Harry's lawyer?  It just seemed so weird to me that the DA called him "Thanassis" like he's the Cher of the legal world.

[bilgistic]

Is Grandpa the only man faithful to his wife on this show? Everyone needs a dick slap.

[Julia]

Oh geez. Let's tick all the boxes of mommy hate bingo, shall we? Shallow, not very bright, making poor decisions because she's confused her needs and the kid's, trendy self-mythologizing self-righteous birkenstock-wearing granola hipster judging everyone who can't afford to or doesn't want to make her choices, expecting everyone else to pay for the deficits in her childrearing and generally harshing everyone else's Waldorfy cool-parent buzz. The only classist cliché missing is the kale chips.

This character is a straight-up comment section driveby on two hooves. It's kind of hilariously obvious that in her face off with an abusive asshole who hits kids we're practically being ordered to judge her. Not quite as hilarious as her anachronistic aussie outer borough accent, but damn close.

Edited March 28, 2015 by Julia

[Sammich63]

I just thought it interesting when Thanasis was talking to Aisha on the stand, that he was about to ask another thing and he looked at Sandi who shook her head no.

I thought it was telling and Sandi does have Aisha's back.

 

I do agree that Sandi does have Aisha's back, but I also think Sandi is afraid that her own past with Harry could be presented as evidence if Aisha is pushed too far with questions from the defense.  I don't think she was willing to take that risk, as that would be very damaging to Harry if allowed in court as evidence for the prosecution. 

 

I'm curious as to what the verdict will be in this case.  I can't imagine any jail time for Harry due to slapping Hugo, but he could end up on probation and have to pay restitution. 

[marny]

I'm curious as to what the verdict will be in this case.  I can't imagine any jail time for Harry due to slapping Hugo, but he could end up on probation and have to pay restitution. 

Restitution for what? People only pay restitution when the victim of a crime suffers financial losses-- like if something is stolen and there needs to be reimbursement.  Rosie and family had no financial damage from this situation.

 

Frankly, I only watched this show because I couldn't fathom how they could make 8 episodes revolving around a slap.  And I was right.  Most of this show was completely irrelevant to the supposed central conflict.  The prosecutor should be ashamed that she's wasting her time on this matter.

[27bored]

Is there a reason why Aisha and Rosie are the only ones on the stand?  I know Harry and Richie will testify next week, but what about everyone else at the party?  I could see how Rosie's testimony was winning until the "Hugo was just learning how to play baseball" part.  That's bullshit.  He was swinging the bat at the other kids because his turn was up and the other kids didn't want to play with him anymore. 

 

Rosie was right that Harry shouldn't have slapped Hugo, but it feels like they're sidestepping the root of Hugo's behavioral issues and how his parents choose to tolerate them.  Hector witnessed Hugo tearing up his house way before the slap even happened, so them pretending that Hugo's problems are only stemming from the incident is absurd.  No matter how weepy Rosie got, or how chivalrous Gary appeared to be showing up, it doesn't change that they're crap parents.  I'm surprised Thanassis didn't bring up that Hugo got kicked out of preschool, since he has people spying in the Weschlers.  Finally learned their last name.

We're on the same page, Amethyst.

 

I...feel a small amount of sympathy for Rosie and Gary, for different reasons. I think a lot of Rosie's overprotectiveness comes from the post-partum depression and leaving Hugo alone for hours. She probably hasn't forgiven herself for that, so she worries if he'll have some residual effects of it. Gary is checked out, but it makes sense when Rosie wants to do everything herself. She's probably no more forgiving of Gary disciplining Hugo than the caring teacher or any other adult. She probably feels she's uniquely responsible for Hugo, and no one else will understand the way she does. She's right in the sense that she's his mother, but she's horribly wrong in the sense that he has a father and they don't live in the fucking Australian outback OMG what is up with her accent?

 

I almost felt a twinge of sympathy at the end of her testimony, and it's the first time I've done so, but I also wanted Thanassis to destroy her. Gotta do what you gotta do. I thought Harry showed an unexpected amount of evenness when Rosie showed up at his dealership, and he made a lot of sense. He probably wishes he could just let it go, too, but...there's no turning back. And Harry was wrong, dead wrong, and that was the time to say it and mean it. But I guess he didn't want to give Rosie too much to use against him.

[geauxtee]

I am surprised that a NYC prosecutor was not more blunt with Rosie and would say straight up, "Your parenting is going to be cross examined mercilessly,is that ok?" I can't believe Rosie goes on the stand and is shocked that her drinking/postpartum depression are brought up. The trial was almost levels of Kimmy Schmidt bad. Did Hugo get a psych eval that would discuss lasting trauma? It seems everyone  just assumes he has lasting trauma because Rosie says so. 





 

[Julia]

I think Rose is everyone else's Hugo, and they enable her because they think she's fragile, so she keeps throwing tantrums and breaking things because she doesn't understand consequences. The prosecutor tried to warn them that it was going to get ugly. Rose started squawking and Gary shut the subject down, because he can't be asked to deal with his family but everyone else needs to back off.

[lezlers]

 

 

My prediction -- the only one that goes to jail is Richie.  For destruction of evidence.

 

What?  Those pictures were his personal property, not under subpoena and he is not a party to the case.  There is nothing illegal about what he did, it's akin to a random bystander recording someone getting jumped on their cell phone, then deleting the recording weeks later.  

Is Rosie supposed to be that unsympathetic? That kid doesn't even seem phased by the slap, didn't he say he wanted to see the guy who slapped him to get candy?

I think it goes to show that this whole trial and arrest isn't for Hugo at all, it's for her.  I'm guessing to help ease her guilt about abandoning him when he was still an infant. 

[lezlers]

It IS fair game to bring up that both Rosie and her husband were drinking at the barbeque so there wasn't much parenting going on (and Hugo could have been affected by the breastfeeding).  I don't think a judge would allow the question about Rosie's post partum episode leaving her child though.  And, no Doctors report or even close up pictures showing the alleged resulting injuries?  There's no way in hell this wouldn't have gotten thrown out.  There is no case, just bad parenting and aggression on Harry's part (since Hugo's parents weren't doing THEIR job) that he obviously regrets. What would have happened if Harry did not intercede and Hugo hit one of the kids with the bat that did result in injuries.  Who would be on trial then?  I hate all these people! 

 

Every time someone proclaims "there's no WAY this case wouldn't have been thrown out!" I want to bang my  head against a wall.  I have defended cases stupider than this in criminal court.  You don't need proof of injury to be guilty of battery. Hell, I've defended attempted battery cases where there WEREN'T any injuries!  Judges don't just throw cases out of court willy nilly, if you have a cooperative victim and the d.a. has some evidence of the crime, the case can go to trial.  All this armchair lawyering in these threads is killing me. 

Edited March 28, 2015 by lezlers

[izabella]

Every time someone proclaims "there's no WAY this case wouldn't have been thrown out!" I want to bang my  head against a wall.  I have defended cases stupider than this in criminal court.  You don't need proof of injury to be guilty of battery. Hell, I've defended attempted battery cases where there WEREN'T any injuries!  Judges don't just throw cases out of court willy nilly, if you have a cooperative victim and the d.a. has some evidence of the crime, the case can go to trial.  All this armchair lawyering in these threads is killing me. 

 

Considering how hard it is to get someone convicted and jailed for repeated domestic violence, it shocks me that this sort of stuff has any legs in a courtroom.

[lezlers]

Considering how hard it is to get someone convicted and jailed for repeated domestic violence, it shocks me that this sort of stuff has any legs in a courtroom.

I'm a public defender.  Trust me when I say it DOES.  Lord, it does. 

[kassa]

Is Grandpa the only man faithful to his wife on this show?

 

I thought we had a scene where it was implied very strongly that he had not been faithful -- Hector confessed the thing with the babysitter and his father said something vague about people having to live with stuff.  Did I read that wrong?

[Sammich63]

Restitution for what? People only pay restitution when the victim of a crime suffers financial losses-- like if something is stolen and there needs to be reimbursement.  Rosie and family had no financial damage from this situation.

 

Frankly, I only watched this show because I couldn't fathom how they could make 8 episodes revolving around a slap.  And I was right.  Most of this show was completely irrelevant to the supposed central conflict.  The prosecutor should be ashamed that she's wasting her time on this matter.

I meant restitution if it is recommended that Hugo receive psychiatric counseling due to PTSD. I don't think Hugo is so traumatized if he refers to Harry as Rocco's dad who gives him candy, but who knows what the prosecution will want.

[LibertarianSlut]

Every time someone proclaims "there's no WAY this case wouldn't have been thrown out!" I want to bang my  head against a wall.  I have defended cases stupider than this in criminal court.  You don't need proof of injury to be guilty of battery. Hell, I've defended attempted battery cases where there WEREN'T any injuries!  Judges don't just throw cases out of court willy nilly, if you have a cooperative victim and the d.a. has some evidence of the crime, the case can go to trial.  All this armchair lawyering in these threads is killing me.

I'm a lawyer with no experience in criminal law outside of an internship, so please excuse any arm chairing...

Did I miss something on this show? Is Harry being prosecuted for attempted battery? I thought all along it was simply battery, or battery of a minor, which are different crimes from attempted battery, and with different elements. Comparing attempted battery with battery is tantamount to comparing attempted murder to murder.

In what jurisdiction can someone be found guilty of battery if the prosecution fails to establish the element of harm? I think this is why so many people were asking why there had been no psychological testing on Hugo--something the prosecution had spoken about. Because the prosecutors in NY have to show some injury, and maybe it can be psychological, or maybe they just need to prove imminent fear of the threat of harm (which can be defined as 'harm' itself), but there is definitely an element of injury/harm that must be proven in order to prevail on a battery claim, at least in the NY criminal court system.

If the prosecution just had to prove that Harry intended to slap Hugo, and that he did slap Hugo, then "slap" would need to be a legal term that denoted harm in and of itself. So far, I haven't seen any evidence of that. If you are trying criminal battery cases where there is no injury established and people are getting convicted, there is a problem in your jurisdiction.

I do agree that it's not a judge's job to dismiss a case willy nilly, but it is their job to dismiss cases in which the prosecution has not reached its burden of proof. And if judges don't think the prosecution will be able to meet its burden, they will be very persuasive toward both sides in their attempt to avoid a trial that is going to end in a dismissal anyway. If I learned anything from my internship, it's that state court judges from big cities with high case loads--such as is the case in King's County (Brooklyn), New York, which is Harry's venue--HATE to go to trial. If there's evidence and/or a witness, the judge will urge the parties to settle. We haven't seen the judge lean hard enough on the parties to be realistic. I think that might be where some of the "this case should/would/could have been thrown out" comments came from.

I can't speak for everyone's experience, and it's not for me to say that there is not a court or a judge in the land that wouldn't want to take on a case such as "the slap." If a judge is up for reelection or loves headlines, or has some other combination of political or monetary ambitions, maybe they want this case...I'm sure it's happened before. All I am saying is that I have seen this show take liberties with the way the legal system is portrayed, and I think the comments here reflect the frustration people have in seeing that played out, as opposed to ignorance toward the way the legal system works.

[callmebetty]

All I know is that my sentence being handed down is that everyone gets a slap but Sandi. And the hardest one is reserved for the writers for writing such contrived,cliched stories that I feel that I have now committed (I admit: stupidly) too much time I have to see it to the end.

Mary Louise Parker's immune system must have known what dreck she was signing onto that it gave her an internal slap to get her out of it.

[Ailianna]

Every time someone proclaims "there's no WAY this case wouldn't have been thrown out!" I want to bang my  head against a wall.  I have defended cases stupider than this in criminal court.  You don't need proof of injury to be guilty of battery. Hell, I've defended attempted battery cases where there WEREN'T any injuries!  Judges don't just throw cases out of court willy nilly, if you have a cooperative victim and the d.a. has some evidence of the crime, the case can go to trial.  All this armchair lawyering in these threads is killing me.

I'm a lawyer with no experience in criminal law outside of an internship, so please excuse any arm chairing...

Did I miss something on this show? Is Harry being prosecuted for attempted battery? I thought all along it was simply battery, or battery of a minor, which are different crimes from attempted battery, and with different elements. Comparing attempted battery with battery is tantamount to comparing attempted murder to murder.

In what jurisdiction can someone be found guilty of battery if the prosecution fails to establish the element of harm? I think this is why so many people were asking why there had been no psychological testing on Hugo--something the prosecution had spoken about. Because the prosecutors in NY have to show some injury, and maybe it can be psychological, or maybe they just need to prove imminent fear of the threat of harm (which can be defined as 'harm' itself), but there is definitely an element of injury/harm that must be proven in order to prevail on a battery claim, at least in the NY criminal court system.

If the prosecution just had to prove that Harry intended to slap Hugo, and that he did slap Hugo, then "slap" would need to be a legal term that denoted harm in and of itself. So far, I haven't seen any evidence of that. If you are trying criminal battery cases where there is no injury established and people are getting convicted, there is a problem in your jurisdiction.

I do agree that it's not a judge's job to dismiss a case willy nilly, but it is their job to dismiss cases in which the prosecution has not reached its burden of proof. And if judges don't think the prosecution will be able to meet its burden, they will be very persuasive toward both sides in their attempt to avoid a trial that is going to end in a dismissal anyway. If I learned anything from my internship, it's that state court judges from big cities with high case loads--such as is the case in King's County (Brooklyn), New York, which is Harry's venue--HATE to go to trial. If there's evidence and/or a witness, the judge will urge the parties to settle. We haven't seen the judge lean hard enough on the parties to be realistic. I think that might be where some of the "this case should/would/could have been thrown out" comments came from.

I can't speak for everyone's experience, and it's not for me to say that there is not a court or a judge in the land that wouldn't want to take on a case such as "the slap." If a judge is up for reelection or loves headlines, or has some other combination of political or monetary ambitions, maybe they want this case...I'm sure it's happened before. All I am saying is that I have seen this show take liberties with the way the legal system is portrayed, and I think the comments here reflect the frustration people have in seeing that played out, as opposed to ignorance toward the way the legal system works.

I'm a prosecutor in NY. There is no crime of "battery" in NY. We call it assault, but it requires injury and a red mark that fades in a few hours isn't injury, as a matter of law. It could be harassment 2, which is a charge with the same seriousness as a traffic ticket (called a violation) which would require proof that the slap was done with the intent to harass, annoy or alarm Hugo.

There's also Endangering the Welfare of a Child, but would require doing something "likely to cause injury to the physical, mental or moral welfare of a child less than 17 years old." No physical harm, and you'd need the much-lauded psych eval to show there was some kind of mental or moral injury (which the candy comments would seem to refute). And even the Endangering charge is only a misdemeanor.

And New York recognizes the right of adults authority figures to use reasonable corporal punishment. The only times I've seen an arrest where a parent/guardian is even charged is where there are deep welts (lasting days, sometimes bleeding long term), broken bones, or something that is extreme and out of proportion to any type of legitimate punishment. In other words, you can spank, slap, et cetera as long as it's not done to cause pain. Now Harry isn't the parent, but under the situation, with a family BBQ and everyone's kids together, and familiar with each other, he has a good argument for being in a position of in loco parentis. Add in Rosie's testimony now that she was relying on the other adults to watch Hugo... No way in real life is Harry getting convicted of anything.

Also, even if a prosecutor had so little to do (never even close to my experience!) that they were spending so much time on this case, Rosie doesn't control if there's an offer made, or if the case goes to trial. The ADA doesn't have to have her sign off on a plea agreement, or even an outright dismissal.

So, yes, the legal part of this is making me a little crazy, since it's completely wrong.

[LibertarianSlut]

I'm a prosecutor in NY. There is no crime of "battery" in NY. We call it assault, but it requires injury and a red mark that fades in a few hours isn't injury, as a matter of law. It could be harassment 2, which is a charge with the same seriousness as a traffic ticket (called a violation) which would require proof that the slap was done with the intent to harass, annoy or alarm Hugo.There's also Endangering the Welfare of a Child, but would require doing something "likely to cause injury to the physical, mental or moral welfare of a child less than 17 years old." No physical harm, and you'd need the much-lauded psych eval to show there was some kind of mental or moral injury (which the candy comments would seem to refute). And even the Endangering charge is only a misdemeanor.And New York recognizes the right of adults authority figures to use reasonable corporal punishment. The only times I've seen an arrest where a parent/guardian is even charged is where there are deep welts (lasting days, sometimes bleeding long term), broken bones, or something that is extreme and out of proportion to any type of legitimate punishment. In other words, you can spank, slap, et cetera as long as it's not done to cause pain. Now Harry isn't the parent, but under the situation, with a family BBQ and everyone's kids together, and familiar with each other, he has a good argument for being in a position of in loco parentis. Add in Rosie's testimony now that she was relying on the other adults to watch Hugo... No way in real life is Harry getting convicted of anything.Also, even if a prosecutor had so little to do (never even close to my experience!) that they were spending so much time on this case, Rosie doesn't control if there's an offer made, or if the case goes to trial. The ADA doesn't have to have her sign off on a plea agreement, or even an outright dismissal.So, yes, the legal part of this is making me a little crazy, since it's completely wrong.

Wow, thank you for all of the New York-specific law! I only have one question: now that I know all of this, it's even harder to buy into this show--how do you watch faithfully without going crazy? If I were a NY prosecutor, and I had to watch this farce of a trial on Thursday, I probably would have emailed the show that they were idiots, and to hire a consultant next time. Guess you have bigger fish to fry, what with having to deal with ACTUAL criminals.

Are there any statutes in New York that govern adults who continue to breast-feed children that are old enough to cut and eat their own steak?

[Ailianna]

There are no breastfeeding specific criminal laws, but the Endangering the Welfare of a Child can be a catch all kind of thing. But you would have to demonstrate that the adult's behavior was likely to be injurious to the physical, mental or moral welfare of a child. If he were older, 7 or 8, I think there could be an argument (I don't know of any case law though), but there are people, including medical providers, who believe in breastfeeding until 4 or 5 (where I think Hugo is). There was quite a bit of discussion about that in the first episode thread. On the other hand, drinking wine (and using whatever else she is using, prescription or street, because I just can't see Rosie as not being an abuser of some type of drugs) might kick it over, since as was pointed out, it's transmitted through breast milk. If there's physical harm caused by the drugs transmitted through the milk... But that would be a rough case, and would probably only come up if a child's doctor reported the presence of alcohol or drugs that were harmful to the child.

[LittleIggy]

Thanks, Ailianna, for the NY prosecutor's perspective. I never practiced criminal law, but as a lawyer wondered how this trivial case could have gone to trial.

[lezlers]

I'm a lawyer with no experience in criminal law outside of an internship, so please excuse any arm chairing...

Did I miss something on this show? Is Harry being prosecuted for attempted battery? I thought all along it was simply battery, or battery of a minor, which are different crimes from attempted battery, and with different elements. Comparing attempted battery with battery is tantamount to comparing attempted murder to murder.

In what jurisdiction can someone be found guilty of battery if the prosecution fails to establish the element of harm? I think this is why so many people were asking why there had been no psychological testing on Hugo--something the prosecution had spoken about. Because the prosecutors in NY have to show some injury, and maybe it can be psychological, or maybe they just need to prove imminent fear of the threat of harm (which can be defined as 'harm' itself), but there is definitely an element of injury/harm that must be proven in order to prevail on a battery claim, at least in the NY criminal court system.

If the prosecution just had to prove that Harry intended to slap Hugo, and that he did slap Hugo, then "slap" would need to be a legal term that denoted harm in and of itself. So far, I haven't seen any evidence of that. If you are trying criminal battery cases where there is no injury established and people are getting convicted, there is a problem in your jurisdiction.

I do agree that it's not a judge's job to dismiss a case willy nilly, but it is their job to dismiss cases in which the prosecution has not reached its burden of proof. And if judges don't think the prosecution will be able to meet its burden, they will be very persuasive toward both sides in their attempt to avoid a trial that is going to end in a dismissal anyway. If I learned anything from my internship, it's that state court judges from big cities with high case loads--such as is the case in King's County (Brooklyn), New York, which is Harry's venue--HATE to go to trial. If there's evidence and/or a witness, the judge will urge the parties to settle. We haven't seen the judge lean hard enough on the parties to be realistic. I think that might be where some of the "this case should/would/could have been thrown out" comments came from.

I can't speak for everyone's experience, and it's not for me to say that there is not a court or a judge in the land that wouldn't want to take on a case such as "the slap." If a judge is up for reelection or loves headlines, or has some other combination of political or monetary ambitions, maybe they want this case...I'm sure it's happened before. All I am saying is that I have seen this show take liberties with the way the legal system is portrayed, and I think the comments here reflect the frustration people have in seeing that played out, as opposed to ignorance toward the way the legal system works.

 

I practice in California.  In California, simple battery is Penal Code section 240.  The jury instructions for that section specifically state that the touching does not have to case pain or injury of any kind. In the civil code system, however, it requires that the plaintiff show harm. Could be different in NY, though. 

[KarmaG]

Rosie would be bad enough if she was just a childlike, hippie dippie, kook who is all about some sort of flowery, nurturing, freedom of expression, through art, sunshine, flowing dresses and butterflies.  But no.  She's not even honest about any of that because, I think, deep down she wants to trade in her soft, artistic husband for a macho, rich guy so she she can have all the expensive jewelry, clothes, cars, and big houses in the world, while telling everyone that it doesn't mean anything to her.  I think she secretly wants Harry.

 

ITA. I think she wants, at the very least, the kind of life Harry provides Sandi. Her insults to Gary prove that. 

 

So we've learned in this bunch that the men are not faithful, not even the artist. Odd too that in the flashback scene they show Gary as being such a successful artist, and they imply that when he had the conversation with the young female artist at her showing yet Gary and family seem to live as poor people. Poor for NYC that is.

[Julia]

Poor for NYC that is.

 

Poor for NYC is very, very relative. Rosie is a SAHM with a large apartment, a child enrolling in private school who has at least a part-time hired caregiver, and an active social life, all supported by her husband's earnings and whatever private resources they have. I believe she and her husband keep a car (which only 44% of families in NYC do, because our insurance rates are prohibitive and parking is a nightmare).

 

Even given the TV convention that poor people in NYC can somehow afford to live in tastefully decorated air craft hangars, nothing about Gary and Rosie's lives suggests that they're anywhere near poor. They may not have Harry's money, but then if we're grading on a curve, Harry's money comes from selling expensive toys to people who have a great deal more money than he does. 

 

I do think she's dissatisfied with Gary's place in life, but I think that has more to do with the fact that she's reduced whatever her aspirations were before to being strictly a wife and mother (what did that godawful voiceover say - she finally found what she always wanted, a man?) and neither her husband nor her son are providing the reflected glory she was hoping for. I thought the most disgusting thing she said on the witness stand was that she somehow found the strength to love her son. Uh, gee, thanks, mom. She's got the kid totally isolated and dependent on her, he has no friends or positive reinforcement from anyone else in his life, he doesn't have the skills to make friends or get positive reinforcement, she's trained him so he can't be soothed when he's more than a few feet away from her breast, and she ignores him when he acts out. And she forgives him for being unpleasant?  

 

I really don't know how this woman got away after the first incident without intensive counseling. Our child went to public school and all the parents were warned at the outset that social services could review our fitness as parents if there was excessive lateness.

Edited March 29, 2015 by Julia

[lezlers]

I'm a prosecutor in NY. There is no crime of "battery" in NY. We call it assault, but it requires injury and a red mark that fades in a few hours isn't injury, as a matter of law. It could be harassment 2, which is a charge with the same seriousness as a traffic ticket (called a violation) which would require proof that the slap was done with the intent to harass, annoy or alarm Hugo.

There's also Endangering the Welfare of a Child, but would require doing something "likely to cause injury to the physical, mental or moral welfare of a child less than 17 years old." No physical harm, and you'd need the much-lauded psych eval to show there was some kind of mental or moral injury (which the candy comments would seem to refute). And even the Endangering charge is only a misdemeanor.

And New York recognizes the right of adults authority figures to use reasonable corporal punishment. The only times I've seen an arrest where a parent/guardian is even charged is where there are deep welts (lasting days, sometimes bleeding long term), broken bones, or something that is extreme and out of proportion to any type of legitimate punishment. In other words, you can spank, slap, et cetera as long as it's not done to cause pain. Now Harry isn't the parent, but under the situation, with a family BBQ and everyone's kids together, and familiar with each other, he has a good argument for being in a position of in loco parentis. Add in Rosie's testimony now that she was relying on the other adults to watch Hugo... No way in real life is Harry getting convicted of anything.

Also, even if a prosecutor had so little to do (never even close to my experience!) that they were spending so much time on this case, Rosie doesn't control if there's an offer made, or if the case goes to trial. The ADA doesn't have to have her sign off on a plea agreement, or even an outright dismissal.

So, yes, the legal part of this is making me a little crazy, since it's completely wrong.

 

Thank you for clarifying! I only know California law, since this is where I practice and apparently we're a bunch of sensitive flowers over here with the whole not requiring injury.  :)