Sweet Fellowship: Duggars and Friends (aka the Bates Family and Other Featured Families Thread)

[leighdear]

Back when this happened, Jim Bob was still just a small-time breeder. The public knew nothing about him except for his half-assed bid for a significant political office.  I don't think he could "summon the elders" of his church to give advice.  They lived in whereverthehellthatis, AR.  Who's gonna fly in to consult with him because his teenage son did something stupid? 

 

The media info so far makes it sound like he had some kind of Papal Conclave of Cardinals assemble to determine the future of Prince Josh.  He probably made a few desperate phone calls to some, crying that his son was going to embarrass him and he didn't know what to do.  I think they all basically said "Do whatever you can to cover it up" and left Jim Bob to it.  

[fliptopbox]

Back when this happened, Jim Bob was still just a small-time breeder. The public knew nothing about him except for his half-assed bid for a significant political office.  I don't think he could "summon the elders" of his church to give advice.  They lived in whereverthehellthatis, AR.  Who's gonna fly in to consult with him because his teenage son did something stupid? 

 

The media info so far makes it sound like he had some kind of Papal Conclave of Cardinals assemble to determine the future of Prince Josh.  He probably made a few desperate phone calls to some, crying that his son was going to embarrass him and he didn't know what to do.  I think they all basically said "Do whatever you can to cover it up" and left Jim Bob to it.  

This made me laugh. I don't think such a thing even exists in Gothard-land. I don't even know how someone would even be considered an elder, since Gothard's teachings or whatever haven't been around all that long. I think he really got going in the late 80's, so as far as a sect of religion it's relatively young. But now I have this silly picture in my head of JB in his dopey plaid lumberjack shirt and rockhard comb-over meeting with a bunch of dudes in robes and big hats. HA!!!

[leighdear]

I know, Fliptop!

 

For whatever Jim Bob's actual "clout" is in his own religious community, he's small potatoes in the grand scheme.  Yes, he & his family have made TLC and Discovery Network a crapload of money, but he is a flea on the rat of profit.  He & his brood are useful for as long as they make money.  Once that stops, he's shoved to the back of the line.  And all of their "supporters" will make tracks, onto the next big thing. 

 

Loyalty in the TV biz has a very short memory, and a Network is only successful when it brings IN sponsors and new viewers.  

 

This show & family are tainted.  You can't un-ring the bell, and I think it's tolled for the last time for the Duggar family. 

[Joe Jitsu913]

I wonder what Kirk Cameron thinks of this mess?

[fliptopbox]

I wonder what Kirk Cameron thinks of this mess?

Probably staying as far away as he can. Kirk might be a weirdo fundie, but I am sure he doesn't support child molesters, regardless of who their parents are.

[Sew Sumi]

I imagine he is. He just graduated from one of Gothard's "seminaries." I am really curious how they will spin the whole Duggar mess, especially since IBLP and Gothard (complete with his perp record) have hit mainstream media. So yeah, Waller, Keilen, and Robert Staddon are three guys to watch in the coming months. 

[Literata]

I hope Joseph is safe and sound with the Bateses. I like that idea.

Early on, the Bateses seemed quite enamored with the Duggars (I'm thinking of the first time we met them, when Kelly announced that she was pregnant after doing a pregnancy test in a truck stop in the middle of the night). As time wore on, they seemed less so, especially in the episodes that revolved around remodeling the Bateses' house. Kelly seemed to wasn't very much for them to go home.

I'd love to be a fly on the wall at the Bateses'. Although I anticipate they'll come out in support of the Duggars, they have to have been seriously rocked by this.

[Sunnybobs]

The only thing about the Bates I keep thinking about is that all of the horrible Gothard print outs on how to treat victims of sexual abuse etc (so the IBLP & ATI composed literature) is also reflective of how they have been taught to believe - they are high up in this institute. This horrendous news has really made me think more critically about both the Bates & Kellers because they are in at the top of this organisation.

[birkenstock]

I think that the Bates support the Duggars too. The Duggar and Bates kids seem to genuinely like each other even if the parents have a tense relationship at times. Jim Bob just seems to get the family there uncomfortably early or rudely late. Then overstays his welcome.

The Bates may remain silent because season 2 of their show starts in a week and a half. They don't want any backlash that could affect ratings. The media's growing interest in Gothard could cause problems for the Bates' mainstream appeal too. I like the Bates family, but hope that the public learns more about how damaging following Gothard can be.

Edited May 25, 2015 by Cocka doodle dont

[becca3891]

But I don't believe for one minute that "church elders" are drawn from the people at Jim Bob's church. No way is he going to answer under authority to them. No way. They answer to HIM, no the other way around.

And we do know that there is a Gothard hierarchy that may not be a "church" in the traditional sense, but is the authority for church leadership. That is established in the book written By Don Veinot, A MATTER OF BASIC PRINCIPLES. It seems reasonable to me that JB submitted to these men. Question of who they are is up for

Debate.

I have to say I totally disagree -- and I have the Don Veinot book too! I understand that there is a Gothard hierarchy, but my understanding, and everything I have witnessed in my fundie upbringing that included home churches with some Gothardites in attendance, is that elders are still on the local level. Gothard and his minions are/were very powerful in that world, but I just don't see Gil and others being called elders when it isn't even a church. Elders are supposed to get together frequently and make church decisions, and you just couldn't do that from a distance to thousands of little home churches scattered all across the country.

[GEML]

I'm not saying that anyone flew anywhere. There is such a thing as a conference call, and they certainly existed.

And while Jim Bob certainly wasn't the person he is today, he was well known. Gothard had made the decision to back him in the state senate race, and then again in the Senate race, providing not only financial benefits but also calling for numerous Gothard volunteers. The idea that he wasn't on Gothard's and his hierarchy's radar is simply ludicrous.

He would have met with the muckety mucks in my opinion. Money had been spent on him.

[becca3891]

I'm not saying that anyone flew anywhere. There is such a thing as a conference call, and they certainly existed.

And while Jim Bob certainly wasn't the person he is today, he was well known. Gothard had made the decision to back him in the state senate race, and then again in the Senate race, providing not only financial benefits but also calling for numerous Gothard volunteers. The idea that he wasn't on Gothard's and his hierarchy's radar is simply ludicrous.

He would have met with the muckety mucks in my opinion. Money had been spent on him.

Hmm, I hope you weren't speaking directly to me with that "simply ludicrous" remark. Of course he was on Gothard's and his hierarchy's radar, as I already agreed. That is not the same thing as saying that Gothard and other higher ups in that bizarre world being referred to as church elders. I can totally see Jim Bob consulting some of them by conference call, and sure, maybe that's what he meant. I can't prove it but I just think that while he may well have consulted them, the elders at the then home church, now storage facility church, were who directly dealt with the Josh incident. But it's looking like we'll probably need to agree to disagree.

[GEML]

Sorry - unless I directly quote of mention someone, my posts are never directed to anyone personally. I would never want anyone to think that.

To me, Jim Bob used the term "church Elders" because it was one the police officer would understand. Not because it was one that he meant in a literal sense. You see that sort of subterfuge through this comments in the report. Michelle's is actually more transparent.

[Julia]

On the bright side, I feel much better about the Supreme Court allowing the guy who owns Hobby Lobby to decide what reproductive healthcare women have access to. Judging from this, he seems to be a real responsible fellow.

 

ETA: this, just in case anyone wasn't sure, was intended as intense sarcasm.

Edited May 25, 2015 by Julia

[Cherrio]

I have to say I totally disagree -- and I have the Don Veinot book too! I understand that there is a Gothard hierarchy, but my understanding, and everything I have witnessed in my fundie upbringing that included home churches with some Gothardites in attendance, is that elders are still on the local level. Gothard and his minions are/were very powerful in that world, but I just don't see Gil and others being called elders when it isn't even a church. Elders are supposed to get together frequently and make church decisions, and you just couldn't do that from a distance to thousands of little home churches scattered all across the country.

Now I have this picture in my mind. Remember the meeting of all the families from all over the country in Godfather 1?    It was held in a very richly decorated room with beautiful arrangements of fruit.

        I see a Gothard "meeting" held in a storage room of a Waffle House with flour and grease all over.  Big stacks of cold waffles on paper plates for refreshment. Lots of artificial green leaves as decoration.

[Cherrio]

Honestly, though, I can't see the Duggars agreeing to meet the polygamist Browns. I don't know anything at all about the Willis' though, so maybe there's that.

True, but I don't see the Browns wanting to be anywhere near the Duggars either for many reasons.

[kathe5133]

Rant begins: The Browns??? One guy, three wives. If this Duggar debacle has taught us nothing, let me spell it out. One guy, three wives. I don't think I have to say more. The Willis'? I don't know of them, but if they are on reality TV they need to find a job and not be on reality TV. The Bates? They follow Gothard. Again, they should get a garden, get a job and buy some condoms. I could go on, but you get my drift. "Reality" TV was fun, while it lasted but now freaks are being put on parade for money. Our friend Kate asked "if someone came to you and offered you money to be filmed, what would you do?" If you are normal, you say, no! No one normal wants to earn a living that way. No matter how "likable" a reality TV family appears, they are not normal by virtue of what they have agreed to do for money. If they appear "normal" it is only a matter of time before the police reports, brothers, babysitters, and the like come forward, most likely for money, and expose the freak flag. When "The American Family" came out in the early 70's I thought them odd and it was a novelty. Now every weirdo from Snookie to Kate thinks people care about them. Until we demonstrate that we don't this foolishness will continue. Ok, rant over.

[JenCarroll]

No matter how "likable" a reality TV family appears, they are not normal by virtue of what they have agreed to do for money. If they appear "normal" it is only a matter of time before the police reports, brothers, babysitters, and the like come forward, most likely for money, and expose the freak flag.

Yeah, I've been saying this (in real life) for years now. There's just something fundamentally off about these people.

[RazzleberryPie]

Now I have this picture in my mind. Remember the meeting of all the families from all over the country in Godfather 1?    It was held in a very richly decorated room with beautiful arrangements of fruit.

        I see a Gothard "meeting" held in a storage room of a Waffle House with flour and grease all over.  Big stacks of cold waffles on paper plates for refreshment. Lots of artificial green leaves as decoration.

Nah, it would be a Chic-Fil-A, and the artificial green leaves would come straight from Hobby Lobby, with the price tags intact, so JimBob could return them later and save the difference.

[Wellfleet]

Now I have this picture in my mind. Remember the meeting of all the families from all over the country in Godfather 1?    It was held in a very richly decorated room with beautiful arrangements of fruit.

        I see a Gothard "meeting" held in a storage room of a Waffle House with flour and grease all over.  Big stacks of cold waffles on paper plates for refreshment. Lots of artificial green leaves as decoration.

 

This is perfect. We don't have any Waffle Houses in my area of the country but I am somewhat acquainted with them. I'm a fan of standup comedian Jim Gaffigan who does a whole bit about them. A sampling:

 

"Boy, I thought the IHOP was a dump - until I went into Waffle House. It's like a white trash convention in there. Actually makes the IHOP look international!"

 

"If you've never been to a Waffle House, just imagine a gas station bathroom - that sells waffles..." 

 

"Actually I like Waffle House, and not just because watching someone fry an egg while smoking reminds me of my Dad..."

 

"I've seen a gun 5 times in my life. Three of those times have been in a Waffle House!" 

 

Mods - if this should be moved to the Prayer Closet, mea culpa - and please do so. I'm just approaching Duggar poisoning right now and thought we desperately needed some comic relief. Many thanks. 

Edited May 25, 2015 by Wellfleet

[3 is enough]

Noticed that a lot of people are posting comments/questions on Alyssa and Erin's instagram accounts.  Seriously?  They seem to be (rightly) concentrating on their newborns and husbands right now.  I know that all the Duggar accounts are silent, but taking the conversation over to the Bates' is just wrong. Of course they know each other, but I have often thought that the actual degree of closeness was played up for the cameras.

Edited May 25, 2015 by 3 is enough

[JenCarroll]

On the bright side, I feel much better about the Supreme Court allowing the guy who owns Hobby Lobby to decide what reproductive healthcare women have access to. Judging from this, he seems to be a real responsible fellow.

My feelings exactly.

Note, you might want to put a smilecon or an eye roll on a post like this, or people may miss the irony entirely. Just a thought -- I'm not a mod or anything, but it's the kind of mis-interpretation I've experienced.

[Julia]

taking my Waffle House thoughts to the open thread

ETA:

Note, you might want to put a smilecon or an eye roll on a post like this, or people may miss the irony entirely. Just a thought -- I'm not a mod or anything, but it's the kind of mis-interpretation I've experienced.

done.

Edited May 25, 2015 by Julia

[CarolMK]

The Bates television show will be back  next week, and they have a lot of new material to cover. Michaela's engagement and wedding coming up in August, Erin and Chad's  new baby (born 3 weeks early but healthy), and Alyssa and John's new baby. I also believe that one or two of their older boys might be attending college.

I know they're on a network that not everybody gets...UP, is what it's called here in NJ. Now I wonder if TLC might try to get them back on the air, but if I were the Bates, I wouldn't return. TLC didn't renew their show the last time it was on. Unless they were able to offer them significantly more money than UP, I assume they'll stay where they are. 

[Absolom]

The Bates family likely has a muli-year contract with UP, so moving any time soon probably isn't an option.  

 

I smile every time I remember my cable company added UP the week the Bates show began.

[charmed1]

Now I have this picture in my mind. Remember the meeting of all the families from all over the country in Godfather 1? It was held in a very richly decorated room with beautiful arrangements of fruit.

I see a Gothard "meeting" held in a storage room of a Waffle House with flour and grease all over. Big stacks of cold waffles on paper plates for refreshment. Lots of artificial green leaves as decoration.

This is perfect. We don't have any Waffle Houses in my area of the country but I am somewhat acquainted with them. I'm a fan of standup comedian Jim Gaffigan who does a whole bit about them. A sampling:

"Boy, I thought the IHOP was a dump - until I went into Waffle House. It's like a white trash convention in there. Actually makes the IHOP look international!"

"If you've never been to a Waffle House, just imagine a gas station bathroom - that sells waffles..."

"Actually I like Waffle House, and not just because watching someone fry an egg while smoking reminds me of my Dad..."

"I've seen a gun 5 times in my life. Three of those times have been in a Waffle House!"

Mods - if this should be moved to the Prayer Closet, mea culpa - and please do so. I'm just approaching Duggar poisoning right now and thought we desperately needed some comic relief. Many thanks.

I laughed so hard at this, but I'll respond in the Prayer Closet. Thank you Pale Force!

[becca3891]

I admit I'll be watching Bringing Up Bates. I wonder if the Duggars will be featured? They weren't last season, although I seem to recall it being mentioned that some of the older girls were out of town for a wedding, and if I recall, it was November so presumably they were at Jessa's wedding. I always thought their families being close was mostly played up for the cameras anyway.

[Churchhoney]

Whoops. The Bates' Bill-Gothard oreo-studded birthday cake arrives on Gawker. (according to the story, at least, Kelly Bates deleted it from their website but then reinstated it labeled as the "groom cake.")  The story of how the Bates family espouses ATI teachings -- just like the Duggars -- accompanies the cake.

 

http://defamer.gawker.com/the-bates-family-is-cable-tvs-new-duggars-and-theyre-ju-1706997724?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+gawker%2Ffull+%28Gawker%29

 

Edited May 27, 2015 by Churchhoney

[AmandaPanda]

I may hate everything about the Gothard teachings, but damn, that cake looks delicious.

[Absolom]

The Bateses and the Duggars won't be shown on each others' programs since they are on different networks.

[Churchhoney]

I may hate everything about the Gothard teachings, but damn, that cake looks delicious.

Yeah. Too bad they made that luscious concoction for such a horrible person.

 

Shows you just how devoted they are, I guess.

[Cherrio]

http://defamer.gawke...e-ju-1706997724

 

Excellent and imo very factual article about The Bates family.

[mbutterfly]

I just learned that I have UP - "Uplifting Television" - on cable here (Comcast). I don't think I'd ever heard of it before.

 

I also see that repeats of 7th Heaven are on its schedule. I thought that show was totally cast out after the Stephen Collins scandal. Maybe UP got it cheap.

IF I remember correctly, UP had "7th Heaven" before the Collins scandal, and cancelled it. So they must have brought it back. In that case I think it was an okay thing to do -- it is such an old show. 

[anna0852]

http://defamer.gawke...e-ju-1706997724

 

Excellent and imo very factual article about The Bates family.

This keeps linking back to this page, not out to Gawker

[Missy Vixen]

Let's see if this link works a bit better.

 

http://defamer.gawker.com/the-bates-family-is-cable-tvs-new-duggars-and-theyre-ju-1706997724

 

The most interesting thing about the article, at least to me -- Mr. Bates brags he does not have a full-time job. Really?

[Gweilo]

May God protect all young fundie girls from sexual abuse.

Because their fathers surely won't.

[3 is enough]

 

The most interesting thing about the article, at least to me -- Mr. Bates brags he does not have a full-time job. Really?

 

A few years back ABC did a couple of prime-time specials about the Bates family.  One very interesting revelation was that Lawson Bates (18 or 19 at the time) had managed to start up a lawn care company that was quite successful,and Gil was not ashamed to say that he had borrowed money from his son on more than one occasion. IIRC, Erin and Zach had also borrowed money from their brother to finance their educations. The snark boards had a field day with that piece of information, and there were many mentions of the "Bank of Lawson", while raking Gil over the coals for depending on his son to support the family.

[Sew Sumi]

Us gets a statement out of the Bateses w/r/t the Duggar scandal. Predictably, they're "praying" for the family. I've long suspected that the families are more frenimies vs. real friends, so this canned response doesn't surprise me one bit. 

 

http://www.usmagazine.com/celebrity-news/news/duggar-pals-gil-and-kelly-jo-bates-praying-for-family-amid-scandal-2015285

[IndianPaintbrush]

Thank god they didn't go into a long explanation of how Jesus forgives all like the Seewalds.  That does speak volumes about how they really feel.  If there was any kind of pre-courtship in the works between these families, I imagine it's going to be very tough now.

[mynextmistake]

I may hate everything about the Gothard teachings, but damn, that cake looks delicious.

There's no shame in coveting a delicious cake.

[anna0852]

I wonder what all these other fundie, ATI and IBPL families are thinking about the Duggars now. A pretty big spotlight is being shined on their world because of them and it isn't to show how wonderful they all are.

[becca3891]

Let's see if this link works a bit better.

 

http://defamer.gawker.com/the-bates-family-is-cable-tvs-new-duggars-and-theyre-ju-1706997724

 

The most interesting thing about the article, at least to me -- Mr. Bates brags he does not have a full-time job. Really?

Why is that something to brag about when you have admitted to borrowing money from your son, and were living in a very inadequately tiny house until TLC (and now UP) came along to save the day? I wish there were a way to show the public how a REAL ATI family lives in many cases -- in poverty and going without needed medical care, all in the name of slavish adherence to debt free living, lack of education and maniacal procreating.

 

Edited to add: I wonder, too, what other fundie/ATI families think. There have to be many of them thinking of their own abuse, as we know statistics show one in five girls will be sexually abused, and cult-like religious beliefs often scare guilty victims into silence. I hope it emboldens some of them to come forward.

Edited May 29, 2015 by becca3891

[Potato511]

Resurrection Eggs ~ A Fun Easter Illustration

 

 

Posted by David Waller

[TomServo]

But I don't believe for one minute that "church elders" are drawn from the people at Jim Bob's church. No way is he going to answer under authority to them. No way. They answer to HIM, no the other way around.

 

The question here is when did the "church of Jim Bob" start?  The incidents in the police report happened when the Duggars were still living in that regular-sized house.  There would not have been a house church there.

Also, there are clues in the police report as to who the elders were.  One was said to be a chaplain at the Piney Ridge program, so whether or not that person was Jim Holt, by definition that person was local.  Another elder is identified as being an ex-prison guard, so the question is was there a person *at the time* on the board of IBLP or ATI who was an ex-prison guard?  Mr. Keller had a prison ministry, but I do not think he had a job as a prison guard.  Then it says they "found out about" this other thing in Little Rock, not that "one of the elders was running this program in Little Rock" even though we know from the reports in the Arkansas newspapers that the man Michelle most likely was talking about who was "kind of a mentor" and was "remodeling a building" WAS Gothard.  Gothard owned the building at that point and it was his plan to remodel it and set it up like the one in Indiana.  The report also says that Jim Bob and the church elders decided to talk to the police and that one of the elders went with him.  Again, at least the person who went with him would have been a local person, and I have my doubts (based on "open secrets" in my area in regard to ATI-related things that have happened) that Gothard would have thought it was a good idea to report the incident to police.

[Sew Sumi]

One of the old specials (I think the very first) showed them homechurching at the old Johnson Rd. home. So we know that it goes back to at least 2003-4 when they taped. JB and Holt had been tight for year before that, so homechurching could have already been happening a couple years prior when Josh was running rampant. The elders of that church would be nothing more than the male "headships." Did JB even recuse himself from those proceedings (if they actually happened)?

 

I remember how much that Easter video made my brain hurt. Robert Staddon is another one of Davey's BFFs, and as you can see, has not a fucking clue around little kids (a pity, since his wife just pumped out their third). 

 

But one can see from this little clip why the kids in this cult are so socially backward. Look at their teaching! It's sad that Brandon Kelien has fallen in with these guys, now that he's also working at Headquarters. I have a weird feeling about him and what kind of husband/father he will be. I know Michael Bates is steeped in the Gothard kook-aid, but that world won't protect her if Brandon gets abusive (he showed some ugly streaks of a temper when she came up to surprise him at school). But yeah, I see them falling in with this crowd, no problem. Sad. 

Edited May 31, 2015 by Sew Sumi

[RazzleberryPie]

Did they start homechurching before or after the times of Josh's incidents? Homechurching and homeschooling are excellent, seemingly legitimate,ways for a family to withdraw their children from any social situations where some little mouth might blab "Josh touched XXXs privates, and YYYS, and ZZZs, oh, and AAAs, too."

[Sew Sumi]

No one knows that answer for sure. I just posted what we knew; they were homechurching when they filmed the first special, and that JB and Holt had been tight for years before that. If they were homechurching, much of what they said about their church structure would be suspect. But then again, it wouldn't be the first time, or the tenth, that the Duggars have stretched truths - or flat out lied - to make themselves look better.

[GEML]

Also, I'm not someone who is taking the police report as "truth." I think the Duggar tend to use language to shield themselves. "Church Elders" sounds reasonable enough, but if they were some baptist offshoot like they claim, wouldn't they have said Deacons? I think they said "church elders" because it was NOT local and they didn't want to lie outright, but it was close enough to regular "churchy" terminology that no one would press them on it.

[Sew Sumi]

Definitely a matter of semantics. All of these fundies have their code down pat. Certainly, other Gothardites understood any of this language that may have come out at the time (although I am inclined to believe that the Duggars really tried to make this go away).

 

It's hard to say how many of the Duggars' pals knew of this, but in hindsight, thinking about the interactions they've shown us between Josh and other families like the Bateses, he's pretty much a non-factor. JD seems to be the brother who is tight with Zach Bates. I want to believe that it was a poorly-kept secret, but if families outside of their church knew, they have certainly done a good job of staying quiet all these years. Although as far as the Bateses are concerned, it may well have been for the earning potential of TV, which ended up being a "thing" for them. It certainly has beehoved them to keep their mouths shut and noses to the grindstone, so to speak. 

[Absolom]

At one point the Duggars were going to an independent baptist church in their area when the children were small.  Whether that overlaps with the Josh issue I don't know.  I don't know if the church was simply independent or IFB, but some Baptist churches do have elders.  It's one of those divisive points it appears.