S04.E14: Unforgiven

[Actionmage]

"I have important business!" --Mayor Regina Mills

 

Tell me, Ms. Mayor, did you:

 

* bring down the magical barrier around your town?

* beef up the electrical infrastructure that has broken down twice in three years?

*Bought a back-up generator for the Important Places in town, like the hospital, Granny's and that one area in the park with a bridge?

*Put in magical Early Alert Systems, like the Emergency Alerts here in Mundane World? So "Incoming" magic sets of the alarm ( or Grumpy) and folks get to a known shelter area?

*Made the pointy bits on Knifingham Playground softer, squishier, or not there for the safety of all four children who might play on it?

*dismantled the Torch & Pitchfork stations around town?

*A good daycare for former royalty to leave their little ones so Mom & Dad can help more with the town?

 

That's more important that getting a Boyfriend/Lover/Time Killer.

 

 

I am sorry to have missed the Marco/Regina scene; I will be looking for it.

[ParadoxLost]

Given that everyone is always related, I'm slightly terrified about who fathered Malificent's baby.

[Joenigma]

 

But, if Snow and David are at fault for Maleficent not having her child, there needs to be more to the story.  They need to have actively separated her from the baby, or this is just another case of "Snow and/or David get blamed for behaving in a reasonable way and someone else killing a person."

Yep

 

But killing the innocent guards was totally unnecessary!  Think about it -- Maleficent is a dragon; therefore, she can fly!

 

Maleficent just used a sleeping curse on an entire kingdom, she couldn't just put them to sleep?

[Mari]

Given that everyone is always related, I'm slightly terrified about who fathered Malificent's baby.

Hee!

 

Maybe that should be our next poll--or we should start some sort of betting pool. 

 

Phillip? 

Not Rumple, I'd guess.

Henry Sr.  (I'd give up chocolate for a month if we can have it be Henry Sr.  The look on Regina's face.)

Hook?

The Sorcerer?

The Author?

Any one else?

Edited March 9, 2015 by Mari

[YaddaYadda]

On the completely random, the tree (was it called the wisdom tree which looked a lot like the heart tree from GoT but without the face)  That's the same tree they use for Storybrooke on those plaques right outside of the heritage buildings, like the honeymoon house.

 

Now back to our regular programming.

[KingOfHearts]

 

But at the same time, it's hard to fault the Charmings for not trusting her and not wanting to partner with her.  In the brief temporary partnership, she torched guards and was trying to intimidate them into doing what she wanted.

I don't blame them for not trusting them at all. In fact, I don't even blame Snow for her reaction in the bedroom scene.

 

 

But, if Snow and David are at fault for Maleficent not having her child, there needs to be more to the story.

 

I didn't see it as enough to justify all the hype. For all this stuff about secrets revealed, there wasn't a whole lot of revealing. I thought the flashbacks would have explained more.

 

 

Maleficent just used a sleeping curse on an entire kingdom, she couldn't just put them to sleep?

I don't think it was a sleeping curse. That was just Snow's understanding. It was a callback to Sleeping Beauty, where the kingdom merely slept temporarily. I doubt Sleepy had a True Love to wake him up.

Edited March 9, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[LizaD]

also don't know if I like the idea that Emma isn't who she is because she's basically a good person despite it all, but because of some spell or something.  It's just more piling on removal of free will here.

Yeah I'm not sure I like the nasty implications embedded here. Before it was Emma's had a crappy life as any of the villains but she managed not to kill entire villages or babies. Now they seem to be saying well that's only cause Snow and Charming cheated the "system" and ensured that she stayed good. See guys if Snow and Charming weren't so evil and separated a child from its mother to make sure their kid stayed pure and good, Emma would've been raping and killing right alongside the best of them. Worst in fact since she has the potential for the greatest evil! Aren't we so clever?

[Souris]

They didn't really wanna write the beginning of the Will/Belle romance, huh? They prefer shock value than actual on-screen development.

 

Why should they change their modus operandi now?

 

They really are cheap writers. They can't be bothered with any sort of development, whether to begin (this) or end a storyline (Hook's heart).

[SnoGirl]

Has it ever been said when in the timeline the Wonderland timeline happens? Has Will not rescued Alice yet? When Will got those two coffees, I knew it was for a lady but I was hoping it was for Red because he called Granny "Mum."

I hate how they build things up on this show and it pans out to be nothing. Will is on the show for what reason? Snow and Charming are keeping a secret from Emma about how she could be the next huge bad?

I am, however, curious about the picture of the door Henry found. I wounder which new land we're going to see next...

[FabulousTater]

Snow and Charming are the worst liars ever. For Emma to just blindly believe them was just dumb, dumb, dumb. Say, how were you sheriff/bailbondswoman again?

No, Emma did think they were lying to her. Hence she kept asking WTF was going on. But after David fed Emma that BS about how it's so bad to expect the worst in people (as Emma is standing there with her lie detector telling her "lie, lie, lie") just to cover for the fact that he and Snow were actually flat out lying to her, David and Snow basically made Emma think that she was wrong for believing they were lying to her. So Emma chooses to believe that they aren't lying to her because "Oh, they would never" and it's just her own personal screwed up childhood thats making her think they are lying to her, even though she's totally right and they are lying to her. All that leads up to Emma's exchange with Hook where she tells him "I choose to see the best in you", which is hilarious because she just took that line from David and Snow as they were lying to her.

 

I mean, Emma's conversation with Hook taken on it's own was very sweet and I liked it, but the fact that Emma got played by Snow and David because she trusts them despite her own better judgement is sad funny.

 

Man, I feel sorry for Emma.

 

ETA:

That smug certainty that they are heroes and an unborn child could be the only reason they were thrown back from the tree ticks me off.  I flashed right to Snow protecting baby Snowflake from Emma.

The writers are really writing Snow and Charming as borderline smug about how good they are, aren't they. I don't remember them (Snowing) being this annoying about being "heroes" in past seasons. This must be part of the writers intentions of making the villains seem less evil by making Snow and David smug and giving them a deep dark "evil" secret. Pfft, whatever. Unless Snowing had a village slaughtered because they thought it would be fun, I'm not buying it (I'm not buying that bit about them being as bad as the villains, 'cause they really are coming off as smug).

 

What I don't get is Emma has always been far more realistic about things. She knows sometimes good people make wrong choices. Finding out that Snow and David were lying to her will suck, but seriously it's not like shit like this hasn't happened to her before. She's seriously resilient. All sorts of bad shit has happened to her and she hasn't gone off on a revenge murder spree. But Snowing lie to her, and "BAM! Evil Emma!"???? BS. I'm not buying that Snowing's deceptions will send her "tumbling into darkness". Give me an effing break.

 

And  the whole "greatest potential for light or the greatest potential for darkness" schtick? It's dumb. Basically, Maleficent told Snow and Charming that their child could be good or that they could be evil...you know, like every single baby born ever! JFC, show. People can be good, evil, and everything in between. It's the choices that they make throughout life that decides if they were good or evil or whatever. So WTF is the big deal about Maleficent's revelation??? She might as well have said "Your baby will be....something. What we don't know. But she has potential to be any of those things. Mwa haha ha!"

 

...This all also stinks of predetermination, and no one having choices (because author!), and I hate it. Wasn't the whole premise of this show about making your life what you choose -- "People will tell you who you are, but you gotta punch back and say, 'No, this is who I am!'" -- and "evil is made not born"? WTF ever happened to that premise, Show. GAH!

Edited March 9, 2015 by FabulousTater

[Shanna Marie]

They didn't really wanna write the beginning of the Will/Belle romance, huh? They prefer shock value than actual on-screen development.

I'm sure that episode of Once Upon a Time Offscreen was really moving, and probably more interesting than this one. In the same episode, we learn what Hook does with his time between delivering sandwiches to Emma. He's probably even already had the "If you hurt her, I'll kill you, she doesn't need to be betrayed again so soon" conversation with Will about Belle.

[YaddaYadda]

I like that no one knows that Rumple is back in town yet.  How about that?

[stealinghome]

The show wants us to feel sorry for villains and see heroes with feet of clay.  The show's point is that everyone has light and dark in them, and the choices they make as to their behavior will place them variably either in the hero or in the villain group.  It relies upon perspective.  From Maleficent's perspective it was perfectly fine to burn the guards on the bridge, because she needed to learn how to counteract Regina's curse and therefore protect her baby.  From Snow's and Charming's perspective it is ok to put Maleficent's unborn baby at risk to protect their own baby's future.  And don't all villains see themselves sympathetically - how else can they justify their villainous behavior?  There is no absolute good/absolute evil for this show - always a mixture.  OUAT has been preaching this from the beginning.  But - at some point one must draw a line where nothing can justify certain types of villainy and the show seems capable of forgiving the worst behavior including murder.  I think that is what many find objectionable about the show's handling of theses issues.

ITA, but what's so interesting to me about this is that the writers--I'm sure totally unintentionally--are really undoing their own logic right now with these two plot strands.

 

Clearly the point of the Snowing plot seems to be that "heroes" and "villains" don't exist, and all people are flawed, Snowing are just as big of villains as Regina, etc etc etc. Which, okay, fine. If they want everyone to be equal, then they're all equal. But at the same time, it's hard to avoid noting that the people who generally seem to at least try to be good, and do ethical things based on protecting and helping the greatest number of people, and make mistakes but try to learn from them and be better in the future, get "happy endings."* And the people who don't mind doing evil, and do unethical or immoral and bad things based largely on self-interest, tend not to get happy endings. So why is that? I can really only thing of 2 options:

1) There IS, actually, a distinction between heroes and villains, and it's what I outlined above. Which invalidates the Snowing half of the story now, because it implies there IS a basic distinction between good people and bad people, and sorry, telling a secret when you're 10 and manipulated isn't the same thing as mass murder. It's not to say heroes are always right and infallible, but it IS to say we can generally differentiate between good and bad people.

2) Happy endings aren't about whether you're Good or Bad, they're simply about rolling with the punches of life and looking on the bright side. It's about your attitude toward what you have--appreciating what you have instead of what you've lost. (*And this is a separate but related problem about the definition of a Happy Ending. I mean, Snow and Charming, for example, have had shit lives. The only reason anyone calls their life now a "happy ending" is because they choose to focus on what they have instead of what they've lost, choose to be happy instead of sad. So I also don't understand why Regina acts like a happy ending is getting everything you've ever wanted unproblematically--when has that EVER happened for ANYONE on this show? What, exactly, is the working definition of Happy Ending that everyone is working from?) If that's the case, it pretty much invalidates Regina's half of the story, because it makes her--and everyone else--look like an idiot for needing some great Author to tell them essentially to buck up.

 

So basically, whichever way the show plays it, whichever half of the story "wins" is going to really cancel out the logic by which the other half is working. I'm...not quite sure the writers realize this yet.

 

But kudos to Regina for finally making a sincere, remorseful apology!

Not that I'm at all excusing Regina's actions toward Pinocchio--they were appalling, and that apology was DEFINITELY called for--but it's pretty sad that among her many, many crimes, THAT seems to have generated the sincerest apology she's ever given. I mean, really? I wish she could show a fraction of the same remorse for her mass murders, rapes, destruction of a civilization/enslavement of its people, etc etc etc.

 

I didn't see it as enough to justify all the hype. For all this stuff about secrets revealed, there wasn't a whole lot of revealing. I thought the flashbacks would have explained more.

I assume more will be revealed as the half-season progresses. We have yet to see the full story.

Edited March 9, 2015 by stealinghome

[ParadoxLost]

But, if Snow and David are at fault for Maleficent not having her child, there needs to be more to the story.  They need to have actively separated her from the baby, or this is just another case of "Snow and/or David get blamed for behaving in a reasonable way and someone else killing a person."

 

I was thinking about this differently.  I was thinking they will go for symmetry of one child born of true love (Snow's) and one of the greatest evil/hate (Mal's).  Both have the potential to go either way; but Snow did something that moved the all the potential for evil into Mal's baby and the good into hers.

 

Thinking about last week, I think Chernabog focused on Mal because she was pregnant.

[MaiLuna]

 

Not that I'm at all excusing Regina's actions toward Pinocchio--they were appalling, and that apology was DEFINITELY called for--but it's pretty sad that among her many, many crimes, THAT seems to have generated the sincerest apology she's ever given. I mean, really? I wish she could show a fraction of the same remorse for her mass murders, rapes, destruction of a civilization/enslavement of its people, etc etc etc.

Regina has always been like this. The very few things she has apologized for were stuff she's done in the present (except for Belle but she didn't have much of a choice there), as she could've apologized for the curse to Marco too. I'm guessing she still has that "no regrets" mentality regarding the EF actions because they got her Henry. Sigh.

[Shanna Marie]

So I also don't understand why Regina acts like a happy ending is getting everything you've ever wanted unproblematically--when has that EVER happened for ANYONE on this show? What, exactly, is the working definition of Happy Ending that everyone is working from?

That's a fundamental flaw with this whole plot line. A story book has a happy ending because we don't see the rest of the story. A life doesn't have an ending, happy or sad, until it actually ends. Since Regina hasn't been forced to dance to her death in red-hot iron shoes (the Grimm ending for her), she hasn't had a sad villain ending because she's still alive. She doesn't yet know how her story will end. She'll only be sad and alone if she ends up spending her whole life tracking down an Author to demand a happier ending rather than actually living the kind of life that could have made her happy.

 

I mentioned this in a thread for a much earlier episode, but it seems to me that losing Robin is actually a hero kind of thing to happen to Regina, and a sign that instead of getting a villain ending, she's starting a new hero story. Heroes' lives suck until they get to that happy ending -- that moment when their antagonists have been vanquished, they get justice, and things work out -- and as we see on this show, they may have troubles after that one perfect moment where the story books end. A hero wouldn't have been allowed to keep Robin because a hero wouldn't be allowed to profit from prior bad behavior. If Regina had still been a villain, she might have been allowed to take Marian's husband or get Marian's husband after executing her. That's what villains do. A hero would have to give him up because it's the right thing to do, and heroes are often required to suffer in the name of good. Along the way, really bad things happen to heroes -- like Cinderella slaving away in her own home, Snow White cast out into the woods, the Goose Girl's position as princess being usurped by an unfaithful servant, the sister being forced to remain silent for seven years so she could save her brothers from being swans, etc. If Regina kept from retroactively doing something villainous and is suffering in the early phases of her hero "story," it means she's on the right track and being treated like a hero. In a storybook, she'd meet someone else along the way, preferably while helping someone else.

[YaddaYadda]

I'm guessing she still has that "no regrets" mentality regarding the EF actions because they got her Henry. Sigh.

 

Of course she has no regrets.  The only thing she regrets is not going into that tavern.

 

I thought her pointing out to Marco that he sent his son in the wardrobe was rich coming from the person who cast the curse.  Even Maleficent who is considered a villain was trying to protect her child.

 

I'm glad Marco told her to step off.  Even freakin' Henry, Regina's apologist was shaking his head at her behavior.  

[turbogirlnyc]

As per usual, Emma will be distraught because her parents caused a villain to lose her baby. And I'm sure whatever The Charmings did was in the best interest of the entire realm and Emma. Whatever Show.

I take it Henry is completely indifferent to his birth mother these days? Just weird.

I found it odd how Ursula walked past Hook without a second glance. Did I miss something?

I think some of the regulars are phoning it in at this point. Can't say I blame them.

Glad I took time to read some of this forum. Saved me a lot of disappointment.

[Dani-Ellie]

So far I'm not at all seeing how what Snow and Charming did at all warrants the whole deepest darkest secret ever thing. Dollars to doughnuts the further reveal is more along the lines of how Snow admits she ruined Regina's life even though it's only part of the reason. Which is fine with me because yeah.

 

So the "great potential for darkness" in Emma is pretty much like I thought ... her power and how she uses it. Speaking of Emma, she and Hook are still the cutest little muffins this side of the Mason-Dixon Line. (Emma walking with her chin on Hook's shoulder at the end there may be the cutest thing I've seen in a while.) I liked that she recognized that he would come to her in his own time and that she let him know so he'd be comfortable enough to do so. Much like she did when he asked her permission to go through her box of childhood trinkets, he has to be secure enough with her that he feels whatever happened won't send her running in the other direction.

 

Marco was my hero this episode. Yes, finally, someone laid the truth on Regina. And no, Regina, it is not okay to talk to any child like that, and certainly not a child who has already tried once to remember what Adult August knew and couldn't (and guess what, Emma and co took their disappointment in that instance on the chin ... y'know, like adults). (And Pinocchio is still an adorable little kid.)

[YaddaYadda]

Regina brought up Phucket where August was asleep, with two naked women. That's one of those things a child should remember.

Regina has zero tact. Imagine this child remembering everythign his adukt self did? I don't think there's enough therapy in the world to get him through that.

[statsgirl]

I get the feeling that Emma and the Charmings only have a darkness because A&E love Regina so much, they want her to be like all the heros on the show except for a few pesky mistakes she's made in the past when people have been mean to her.  It's not really her fault, see, Snow and Emma can be just as bad as Regina. Except, they're not.  Emma has had far worse things happen to her in her life than Regina has and she's still trying to make things better for other people. If they suddenly try to make her dark to make Regina look better, it will be such a cheat.

 

The Author storyline is really bugging me. It's like there is some great being (God?) who controls our destinies and if we can just convince him to put us in the good guys side, we'll have happy endings. We don't need to work for it, or have free will, He'll take care of it all. (It's as stupid as Oliver protecing Malcolm Merlyn on Arrow and that's saying a lot.)

 

The tree thing is stupid.  How can it reject Charming and Snow because the baby, a mere collection of cells at this point, has the potential to someday be evil?  Why are Snowing so stupid as to get all worried about this?

 

I was thinking about this differently.  I was thinking they will go for symmetry of one child born of true love (Snow's) and one of the greatest evil/hate (Mal's).

But wasn't Malificent showing concern for her baby an indication of love?

Edited March 9, 2015 by statsgirl

[Bluerang1]

I loved Cruella bringing up Regina's past in front of Henry and also Gepetto calling her out. 

Ursula has the best side-eyes.

 

I wonder who Maleficent's baby daddy is. It bothers me that they said Snow and Charming wronged her the most, what about the King and Queen that didn't invite her to the christening? Or perhaps they aren't going this route.

[tennisgurl]

So what if Emma has potential for great darkness? Am I missing something? Doesn't everyone who has ever been born ever have potential for great good, or great evil? Is goodness genetic now? Was there a prophesy? Do these people not have free will? Of course with this whole author thing, the free will thing might be coming into question...

 

When Regina cant get her "happy ending" immediately, she starts yelling at kids, and threatening them. Figures. I know she said sorry, but it seems kind of fishy that the one person she actually apologizes to is the one she needs something from. 

 

Judging by Marco`s rant, I think its possible more than a few of the other fair tale citizens are not as peachy with Regina as mayor as the main cast are. Maybe there are more people who still have issues with the Evil Queen. 

[Mathius]

Given that everyone is always related, I'm slightly terrified about who fathered Malificent's baby.

It's Charming. He impegnated her with an egg, after all, when he rode that pickle.

[shapeshifter]

Given that everyone is always related, I'm slightly terrified about who fathered Malificent's baby.

...

Not Rumple, I'd guess....

Actually, he was my first go to--which would have made the baby Henry's step-uncle, right?

But then I read this, and it seemed much more plausible, hee!:

It's Charming. He impegnated her with an egg, after all, when he rode that pickle.

I am just so relieved it wasn't Mal who Hook had history with!

This was a pretty lackluster episode for me too (like others have mentioned). Does anyone know when it was filmed?

[Artsda]

Belle and Will Scarlet have been dating on the down low all this time? Because that kiss was out of nowhere. Gold deserved it though, Belle deserves better.

[YaddaYadda]

I wonder who Maleficent's baby daddy is. It bothers me that they said Snow and Charming wronged her the most, what about the King and Queen that didn't invite her to the christening? Or perhaps they aren't going this route.

Doesn't matter. Whatever they did contributed to the loss of her child. This is where it starts and ends with her. She went to them, then to Snow to explain her motivation. We don't know yet the extent of the eviiiiiiiiil Snowing are responsible for.

The rattle was sort of on par with Emma's nursery back in season 2 when Snow and Emma were in the EF and Snow was heartbroken over everything she lost with Emma, you know, back when they had a relationship to speak of. Not everyone is forgiving towards the person who wronged them when it comes to their child or a fucking doormat like Snow is when it comes to Regina. Girlfriend stole 28 years from Snow. Never mind what it did to Emma who incidentally mentioned her fucked up childhood while her parents stood there eavesdropping.

This show is contrived as fuck but they knew exactly where to go with Mal, I think.

Also, is this the reason Chernabog identified her last week's flashback? Not so much her but her baby? I'm starting to see all sorts of weirdness in this.

[KingOfHearts]

 

Regina has zero tact. Imagine this child remembering everythign his adukt self did? I don't think there's enough therapy in the world to get him through that.

Trying to get Pinnochio to remember was just plain stupid. Regina, who is known for giving forget spells left and right, should not suspect Pinnochio knows anything after having his memories wiped away by magic.

 

 

I wonder who Maleficent's baby daddy is.

I'm guessing King Stefan. This show loves ripping off movie adaptations.

 

 

We don't know yet the extent of the eviiiiiiiiil Snowing are responsible for.

Snow is so inconsistent. "We won't give into darkness!" Just a few months ago she was going to dark fairy dust to kill off Regina. And later, she went to the Dark One for a forgetting potion. She used a dark magic candle to kill Cora, then used the Dark Curse to save her child like Maleficent was trying to do. 

Edited March 9, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Minneapple]

And  the whole "greatest potential for light or the greatest potential for darkness" schtick? It's dumb. Basically, Maleficent told Snow and Charming that their child could be good or that they could be evil...you know, like every single baby born ever! JFC, show. People can be good, evil, and everything in between. It's the choices that they make throughout life that decides if they were good or evil or whatever. So WTF is the big deal about Maleficent's revelation??? She might as well have said "Your baby will be....something. What we don't know. But she has potential to be any of those things. Mwa haha ha!"

They should probably ask the Author. You know, since he's responsible for everyone's decisions and nobody has free will.

[retrograde]

I guess this was more of an arranging the chess pieces, “setting things up for the next few episodes” kinda episode. Bearing that in mind, and putting aside the stupidity of the author plot — as I already knew going in that it would be there and be dumb — I guess I liked it okay.

 

Liked

• Continuing to love everything about Cruella.
• I’m less enamored with Ursula, but I do like the pair of them just cruising around town offering bitchy comments. Particularly needling Rumple about Belle. They’re weak as villains, but they’re great as henchwomen.
• GEPETTO! Glad someone is calling Regina on her shit now Emma apparently won’t.
• Glad they didn’t draw out the angst/secrecy with Hook any more episodes. I mean, he hasn’t told her, but at least it isn’t going to be another season of “Hook stares forlornly at Emma instead of just telling her whatever he’s keeping from her.”
• “Pound Puppy and Fish Sticks.”

 

Not so much

• Regina trying to make Pinnocchio remember his adult life was super effed up. Just… gross.
• Belle and Will. Maybe there will be more to this storyline, but I really suspect they just needed something to do with Will and using him to make Rumple jealous was their solution.
• If babies born from true love have potential to be super evil, then why aren’t there more villains who had amazing loving childhoods?
• I love that Storybrooke continues to use outdated tech, but the iPhone-sporting Emma should be more annoyed by Windows 95 and that clunky old computer. I’d have thrown something through the screen waiting that long.
• Please bring back snarky fun Hook.

[Blue Plastic]

Remind me again why it's so "dark" to ensure that a super dark evil villain doesn't have a child? Isn't stopping evil procreating a good thing?

I'm so confused by this story I don't even know where to begin.  Besides, Snow and Charming don't seem to bat an eye now at the thought of teaming up with Regina to work against a perceived threat that is even worse, so I'm not sure why she just rejected Maleficent's proposal out of hand.  Plus WTH does working with Maleficent have to do with whether or not baby Emma will be a good person?  Wouldn't that have more to do with how she is raised and the environment she is in and her own disposition?  Ugh!

 

I almost wish we get a glimpse of an alternate universe in which Snow cooperated with Maleficent and Maleficent had her bouncing baby dragon, LOL.

 

Introductory scene questions: Why is Snow wearing an ugly blue smock? Why don’t they give her a prettier nightgown? And her Enchanted Forest wig was even uglier. OUAT producers, I beg of you, stop this madness.

That blue monstrosity looked like a hospital gown.  Why do they want Snow to look so severe and plain, like she never has an ounce of fun and never enjoys anything?

 

Totally stupid that Snow and Charming overheard Captain Swan having their conversation about Ursula (which I couldn't care less about) and decided to continue to keep their annoying secret.  I was hoping it would be a good secret but I should have known better.  It will likely be along the same lines of the "horrible crime" that Snow committed against Regina, never mind that Snow was only 8 years old at the time and was actually trying to do a good thing.  Whatever!

[Leia1979]

I'm switching to Team Evil because Good is dumb. This makes two episodes in a row I've found just kinda meh. My favorite part is Cruella (though the makeup person should really go a little thinner on her eyebrows).

 

I'm already tired of Snow and Charming and "Oh noes, our sekrits!" I've enjoyed seeing happy Emma, but I'm so disappointed that she "chose to believe" her parents weren't lying to her. I expect more. Frankly, at this point, I'd be more interested to see Emma's great potential for darkness than anything else going on this season.

 

Maleficent isn't scary enough. I don't really remember her from earlier seasons, but cartoon Maleficent was scarier. I feel like she ought to be just as intimidating as evil Regina.

 

Gepetto giving Regina a verbal smackdown was great. Too bad it didn't last. And Belle and Will Scarlet was quite a surprise. Whatever happened to Anastasia?

[Emma]

I love Cruella. Her swagger. Her snark. Her gangster car. Please let her stay.

I'm pretty much just in for Emma and Captain Swan at this point.

Snowing were creepy eavesdropping on them at the end though. Sheesh.

[Camera One]

This episode got me so angry.  Episodes have been bad before but this one was just horrible.

 

I never find it entertaining when people keep secrets, decide to tell the secret, and then back out after hearing the potential secret-hearer say something sappy. It makes me want to rip my hair out. Congratulations, this episode succeeded at a tried and true Days of Our Lives technique.  And for the stupidest reason too.  Emma can't hear that she potentially could be evil?  And hearing that would make her turn evil?  Uh, yeah right.  From what we saw in the flashback, there was zero reason why Snow and Charming can't tell what we saw, even if what happened afterwards caused Maleficent to lose her baby.  They saw her incinerate three people.  Of course Snow will not work with her willingly.   

 

The level of stupid in this episode was just off the charts.  Why didn't Snow and Charming consult Blue about the Tree of Wisdom?  If anyone should know about it, she would have.  Meanwhile, in Storybrooke, you had Charming and Emma "tailing" Cruella and Ursula 5 meters behind.  

 

Was that "steal the box from the pawnshop and have Charming accidentally find it so he and Snow could try to get Maleficent's ashes from under the library" con be any more convoluted and unnecessary?  

 

Does every ex-villain get the requisite "You're not that person anymore!" (despite hearing stuff like your foster mother took the heart of every person in a village, or vague as hell responses like "Did you break her heart?  Worse...").  So they get complete understanding, but meanwhile, Emma just HATES people who lies, and if her parents do, it'll send her "tumbling down a dark path"?  Give me a freak'in break.  The double standards on this show couldn't be more crystal clear.

 

What the hell was with Belle and Will kissing?  I don't even want to go there...

 

So August found the author's door.  Yeah, whatever.

 

The only parts I liked was Gepetto telling Regina what we all think about the Author plot.  Regina working undercover also sounds intriguing.

 

I just wish this didn't necessitate them demonizing Snow and Charming and making them dumber than a block of wood, because this entire storyline hinges on them being idiotic about keeping this from Emma.  If they must do that, at least set up a situation where the secret keeping is actually warranted.  

 

I don't think I've ever hated this show as much as I do at this moment. Can't wait for the sob story coming up about how Snow killed Maleficent's baby.

[KAOS Agent]

So that episode happened. We have this huge secret and we're going to be ridiculously stupid about it ensuring that when it all goes to hell and Emma learns about it, she's going to be about ten million times more pissed at us than if we'd just said we screwed up so help us fix it. And also, we're not going to tell you what exactly we did. I don't even know why I bother to watch anymore.

 

A few notes:

 

- Cruella and Ursula can stand around and snark on all the goings on in town and I will watch for hours.

 

- Regina's treatment of Pinocchio was sick and gross. I did like how they juxtaposed Regina being terrible with children with Emma calmly and nicely asking him a few questions. August fucked Emma over but good and she's nothing but kind to his child self while Regina is still awful. Note to Regina: Did you notice that when you did something human and apologized something good happened? See how that works?

 

- I loved Regina's comment about how she just wanted to go back to when it was just Henry, Regina, Robin and Roland. Would someone like to tell me when that happened because that moment couldn't have lasted more than a minute.

 

- And two episodes in and already a continuity error with their base story. Sigh. Maleficent says Emma has the potential for the greatest evil ever. Much greater than Regina. Why then did Rumpel have to tell Cruella and Ursula that? They were standing right there when Maleficent said it.

 

- I love how these people are faced with magical beings and pull swords like that would mean anything. And apparently, they couldn't just poof to the tree or across the bridge or you know, fly on Maleficent's back. No, they had to kill a bunch of guards to cross. Maybe the hero tree thing didn't work because Snow & Charming suck, not because of their completely innocent baby. 

 

- Not at all here for Emma = Rosemary's Baby

 

- I did like Emma telling Hook that she doesn't need him to tell her what he did because she gets that he sucked as a human being in the past, but it's not okay for him to lie about it. Exactly. Interestingly, Emma's message to Hook was that she's accepting of past mistakes just don't lie to cover them up. And Snowing took that to mean they should continue with the cover up and lie. They suck. A lot.

 

- Henry is just creepy at this point. He needs to get a life outside of his crazy mother. Regal Believer is not cute, it's weird. And what the hell was up with the donuts?  

[Rick Kitchen]

 

I found it odd how Ursula walked past Hook without a second glance. Did I miss something?

 

Am I confused?  She said, "Hello, Hook," and Emma kept questioning him through the whole show about how he knew her.

[Blue Plastic]

She seems to be grounded and has self-awareness. Her determination (to save her child from a curse) is much more logical and human than Regina's revenge spree or Zelena's Operation Envy. She doesn't seem like a person who would just go out and kill people for fun. She just has clear goals she needs to accomplish and she's not going to let anything stand in her way. Her scene with Snow in the bedroom was touching.

I totally bought Mal's sincerity in those two scenes (in Snow's bedroom and with rattle) and felt for her.  It's the first time I've been able to stop doing anything other than roll my eyes when one of the Queens of Really Super Evil (or whatever they're being called) is on screen ever since they started being advertised for the second half of the season.  I'm not even a parent and don't necessarily relate to lost baby/children plots as part of a fictional story - but somehow the actress really sold it and made me believe in her motivation in a way that many/most of this show's other "big bads" haven't.  It will probably deteriorate and devolve into ridiculousness at some point as the writers rush to make some harmless coincidence look like an act of intentional evil on Snow's part, but tonight I totally wanted Snow to help Mal in the fairyback.  Stupid, I know, since she had just killed those soldiers but I was affected by the poignant moment.

 

I love how these people are faced with magical beings and pull swords like that would mean anything. And apparently, they couldn't just poof to the tree or across the bridge or you know, fly on Maleficent's back. No, they had to kill a bunch of guards to cross. Maybe the hero tree thing didn't work because Snow & Charming suck, not because of their completely innocent baby. 

All of this.  I guess it just goes to show how stupid Snow and Charming are that no matter how many times they are confronted by Regina, Rumpel, and other magical adversaries who can crush them with the wave of a pinky finger, they still think they have a chance in a fight with human weapons.

[Actionmage]

- I loved Regina's comment about how she just wanted to go back to when it was just Henry, Regina, Robin and Roland. Would someone like to tell me when that happened because that moment couldn't have lasted more than a minute.

 

::Applauds:: Thank you!  IA agree with Camera One's assessment of David's ability to "tail" anyone. Extra Difficulty Points when not on foot or horseback.

 

I think with Mal, we are to think about how "evil" people have families, pets, and even babies that they love-- Just Like The Heroes!, as if it's news to the audience. It feels cheap. At least right now.

[jhlipton]

i know two months to get over the love of your life (that you are still married to). I think Rumple is totally justified in going all medieval on them.

 

Not to me.  Rumple is a sociopath who only cares about power. He's got no right at all as to what happens with Belle.

 

I don't think it was a sleeping curse. That was just Snow's understanding. It was a callback to Sleeping Beauty, where the kingdom merely slept temporarily.

In the original story, Mal cast the sleeping curse. And it looked like she had cast the same one here.

[FabulousTater]

I can't get over how senseless this entire Snowing's secret is --
 
Snow tells Regina that she and Charming went to extraordinary lengths to ensure Emma's "goodness", but then in the same breath Snow says she can't tell Emma what exactly she did (to ensure Emma's goodness) because that could make Emma go bad??? What the???...Hold up. Wait a minute. Snow, you just flipping said you did 'xyz thing' to ensure/guarantee Emma is a hero and good with the lightest light magic and all that. So explain to me how in seven hells she can go 'bad' now because of your dumbass secret?!? You just said her goodness was 'ensured'! I mean, do you lose your "Good Child Guarantee" if Emma finds out you have a guarantee? Is it a limited warranty? 'Heroic Goodness' - Guarantee not valid in the continental U.S. and Storybrooke? What? I mean.... WHAT??? 
 

UGH. The writing for this show *repeated head desk*.  I'm running out of synonyms to describe just how stupid I think all of this is.

 

(ETA: I can't emphasize enough how much I also hate this predetermination BS the writers seem to be circling towards. Emma's not good because she chose of her own free will to be a good person, and to do good and what's right despite all the terrible things people did to her. Nope, she's good because Snow and Charming did XYZ. Except oh, wait, in spite of the XYZ assurance, she's still got the greatest potential for the darkest evil because reasons, so don't tell her.... This. Effing. Show. )

Edited March 9, 2015 by FabulousTater

[KAOS Agent]

How dumb do they have to be to think Maleficent isn't going to tell Emma? Team Not So Charming grabbed hold of the idiot ball and jumped off a cliff with it didn't they?

[ParadoxLost]

What the hell was with Belle and Will kissing?  I don't even want to go there...

 

I've added to my head cannon.  In addition to the town meetings they've been having about placating Evil Queen to keep her from plotting to kill everyone after the lasagna incident; they now suspect Rumpel is in town and embarked on a plot for Belle and Will to kiss at random intervals to draw him out.

 

Why is Will even on this show?  Did they like him enough on Wonderland that they decided to pay him for doing nothing?  I'm starting to think the actor had a contract that guaranteed he'd go to OUAT or get paid for X episodes if Wonderland didn't make it.

[ParadoxLost]

But wasn't Malificent showing concern for her baby an indication of love?

 

When I say a baby born of true love / hate I don't think it has anything to do with how the parents feel toward the baby but rather how the parents feel toward each other.

[Serena]

Who are the writers trying to kid? Like less than one year ago, Snow and Charming passed through Glinda's Pure Heart Only™ door. Suuuuuure they're baby killers. Sure. 

BTW, I don't give a fig if Snowing had the choice between saving themselves/Emma and Mal's baby and they chose Emma. OF COURSE THEY CHOSE EMMA. That's the fricking least they should have done.

[YaddaYadda]

JFC, Cruella and her blood diamonds line was so very wrong on so very many levels.

 

And Ursula's eyes bulging out of her head when Emma said "You're off the hook"...I am very much looking forward to that backstory and see just how "ugly" it was.  I'm sure it's as "dark" and "evil" as what Snowing did.

 

Also, Snow and David should do what they could to save their kid, but now they seem to be drawing parallels between the two pregnancies and/or between Emma and Maleficent.  I really thought it was Emma/Maleficent parallels after the whole Chernabog "incident" in both the flashbacks and in Storybrooke.  And now I don't really know.  Was Chernabog Maleficent's tree of knowledge test?

 

Marco called the search for the Author ill-fated.  I'm gonna go ahead and choose to believe that since the search for the Author is ridiculous and makes no sense.

Edited March 9, 2015 by YaddaYadda

[FurryFury]

God I hated this one. Not as bad as Breaking Glass, obviously, but definitely up there among top 10 worst episodes of the show, even despite the absence of Robin (who takes each episode down a peg just by having screentime talking to/kissing/screwing Regina.

The Snowing secret is idiotic, whatever it is, and the way they were talking about it was incredibly contrived. Nobody talks like that, writers. And it's terribly annoying that this whole story has been created to once again shill Regina by comparison.

I'm sorry, am i supposed to empathize with Maleficent, who has just killed three totally innocent guards just because she considered carrying her friends on her back in dragon form beneath her? FWIW, she got what she's deserved. Not to mention, her child is 100% not dead, because this is Once.

So, nobody, even Emma, thought that trying to spring a child's memory of his adult self may scar him for his (second) life? Jeez.

Marco's insta-forgiveness of Regina encapsulates all that is wrong with her character in a nutshell. No matter what she does, she gets a free pass.

P.S. I kinda want a twist that Emma won't get a dark heart, Neal will - after all, he's a true love baby as well and supposed to have the same potential. But I doubt the writers care.

[coppersin]

Re: Mal's baby daddy:

I'm guessing King Stefan. This show loves ripping off movie adaptations.

My memory of Aurora's storyline is foggy at best, but didn't she take her mother's place in the curse, or something like that? So maybe Mal punished her mother because Stefan chose her instead, despite a baby on the way?

However:

Henry Sr.  (I'd give up chocolate for a month if we can have it be Henry Sr.  The look on Regina's face.)

This. This is what I didn't know I wanted until just now. Regina's face would be perfection. And maybe we can somehow bring Henry Sr back, so someone can point out that Regina's non-regrets include murdering her own father.

 

 

 

Has it ever been said when in the timeline the Wonderland timeline happens? Has Will not rescued Alice yet? When Will got those two coffees, I knew it was for a lady but I was hoping it was for Red because he called Granny "Mum."

I'm confused as well. I used to watch every episode but my liver couldn't take it; as a casual viewer, I don't usually have a problem keeping up because this show is hardly complicated. But I feel like whether Will's current plot is pre- or post-Wonderland series is important. Maybe the writers think it's dramatic to hold off the reveal, and miscalculated? Because I don't feel anticipation, just annoyance.

 

 

i know two months to get over the love of your life (that you are still married to). I think Rumple is totally justified in going all medieval on them.

Rumple is a sociopath who only cares about power. He's got no right at all as to what happens with Belle.

Rumple's hurt is understandable, but lashing out, while expected, will not be okay. There is no time limit on relationships and moving on. When it's over, it's over, and Belle made it very clear that they're over at the town line.

 

 

Meanwhile, this episode is one of many that has me scratching my head regarding Regina. I've backed off from the show for many reasons, the writing being the main one, but Regina constantly has me scrunching my face in confusion. Henry helps heal her, but I never see much growth. She loves snarking on people but can't handle judgment being thrown at her. The writers give her a love story, but do so by tainting a well-known and beloved fictional couple when they could've given her any single guy in the whole damn world. Her storyline, to me, is such a mess and I can't decide what the hell the writers are thinking with her, and whether they believe they're succeeding.

And to be clear, my problems with her have nothing to do with her being a villain. I usually love the villains more, even when I don't like them much, because they're more interesting and generally seem more enthusiastic. I think Rumple is great, and Rumbelle could be complex and compelling in the hands of different writers, but I have no illusions about his asshole behavior. It's all interesting to me (though, admittedly, it's more about what I think the storyline SHOULD be than what I suspect we'll actually get). But with Regina, there's none of that. I'm either annoyed, confused or disinterestedly waiting for the next scene. I honestly don't understand the appeal, or the hopes for the character, or why we have moments like Marco calling her out when we know damn well that nothing will come of it. I wish I could sit with the writers or a Swan Queen/Outlaw Queen fan and explain to me what they see. Because I just don't get it.

 

In fact, "I just don't get it" has become my mantra for this show. I miss the good ol' days...

Edited March 9, 2015 by coppersin

[kirkola]

The Belle & Will scene cannot be what it looks like.  But it had to look that way to tear a hole in whatever is left of Rumple's heart. 

1) It's been established that each has their own True Love . 

2) Belle was, not 12 hours earlier, looking at the Annoying Duo of Evilness and wistfully asking after Rumple. 

 

It's far more likely that what we were actually seeing is the culmination of some off-camera story.  that they will have to explain in some future episode.  This version of Belle (as written) is far more likely to be aiding Will in finding his True Love than in making a relationship with him.

[Selina K]

Regina brought up Phucket where August was asleep, with two naked women. That's one of those things a child should remember.

Regina has zero tact. Imagine this child remembering everything his adult self did? I don't think there's enough therapy in the world to get him through that.

 

For real, this is how you want to jog the kid's memory?  Couldn't start with 'you came over in the wardrobe?'

 

Mal promises Snow she is going to suffer as much as Mal did losing her child.  Because Snow didn't completely already do that and let's see if we can remember whose fault that was ... 

 

So is the invisible tagline to "evil isn't born, it's made" ... by the author?  I don't understand this author storyline in the least.  Up until now it was the choices you made determined your evil / good status.  Now it's we want everyone to be morally gray so we'll have some puppet master in the back determining everyone's fate?  Is there actually some kind of Catholic "free will" vs. Calvinist "predestination" kind of war occurring in the writers room?

 

Slow clap for Marco.  I actually did applaud in real life when he told Regina everything was her fault.  It was beautiful.

 

I think I have to accept that the way to watch this show is to accept each episode as a series of vignettes which could be watched in any random order without either adding to or subtracting from the plot and individual character development.

 

And just at the end when I'm just thinking wtf did I just watch, we get an adorable Captain Swan moment, which I will attribute entirely to JMo.  She is really selling the letting down my walls with Killian expressions. And then Carlyle's fabulous reaction shot to the wtf of Belle and Will.  I love these actors and smh at these writers.  Except for Cruella - she is fabulous.  Really should keep Cruella and Ursula around to MST3K the rest of what happens in Storybrooke.

[YaddaYadda]

And just at the end when I'm just thinking wtf did I just watch, we get an adorable Captain Swan moment, which I will attribute entirely to JMo.  She is really selling the letting down my walls with Killian expressions.

 

 I thought that moment was interesting not regarding her speech about doing what her parents do which is seeing the best in people, but rather her line of questioning because she assumed Hook had broken Ursula's heart and the look in her face?  She was really scared that the answer would be yes.

 

I was half expecting her to mention that she was a bit prickly at one point.