Michelle and JimBob aka J'Chelle and Boob

[wanderwoman]

Are we seriously going to have to suffer through 19 "quality time", hobby moments?  It comes off as so unnatural and insincere.  It's too little to late on the image front simply because Michelle makes it very clear that "since she not pregnant", she has the time to play with her children...wtf?

[wanderwoman]

What does she mean by being ready to "catch" a baby if that's what God wants?  She said that twice in that clip.  Is "catch" some kind of euphemism for getting pregnant?  Was she joking?  Did she mean literally "catching" the baby when it comes out (which seems it could be a little difficult)?

I noticed her choice of words, too.  I think she's using "catch" as a substitute for sustain.  Maybe she's using it in a colloquial way?  My grandma, who was from Ohio, would refer to miscarriages or infertility in a similarly odd manner - "Her pregnancy didn't take."  Like, the egg didn't catch the uturus or something?  Maybe Michelle thinks babies are football's and Jesus is the quarterback... she's hoping to be the wide receiver.  Who knows!?  The level at which they mutilate the English language is astounding.

[roamyn]

My family have lived in OH (& the OH area) since 1701, and I've heard the phrase "didn't take"

I've never heard the term "catch a baby".

Edited May 21, 2014 by roamyn

[SometimesBites]

Just posted this as a comment on someone's FB:

A high-risk OB is not a fertility doctor, stupid Today Show. A fertility doctor is a reproductive endocrinologist. What they are doing is responsible. Many older women discuss it with a high-risk doc before deciding to have more kids. As do women with recent traumatic pregnancies/births, including me. At least they're trying to be informed.

Now, if the high-risk doc tells her the chances of her life being in danger are very high, would she actively try to prevent via birth control or having her tubes tied? That's an interesting question. It would be the ultimate FU internets.

 

While I agree that claiming the Duggars went to a "fertility specialist" is mostly sensationalizing, I cannot agree that  Michelle seeking this OB's opinion is her stab at being responsible with her fertility. (I can barely stand to type the words "responsible" and "fertility" in the same sentence in regard to the Duggars!)

 

For just about anyone else, I would think  it absolutely responsible and smart to talk to an OB who specializes in high-risk pregnancies. But in the case of the Duggars, they have no business actively attempting pregnancy, IMO. The very idea that they are still TRYING to get pregnant (that is, not just eschewing birth control, but specifically and actively working  to make her "catch a baby") is one of the most egregiously irresponsible things I've ever heard. There is no question that carrying a baby to term is risky to Michelle's health: she was in such danger with Josie that they had to risk Josie's life in order to save Michelle's. Then she loses a baby that, for all practical purposes, was stillborn.

 

She stated in the clip that they have been informed repeatedly by several sources that their chances of having a child with Down's Syndrome is high (and moving daily toward the one-in-four range!); she has also publically stated that risking her own life to keep pouring out babies is tantamount to the biblical injunction to "lay down our lives" for each other. She's so focused on bearing children that she is willing to compromise her responsibility of RAISING them! How DARE she knowingly risk her life after bringing 19 children into the world?? Even if she is willing to die to give birth to #20, doesn't she care at all about what that would do to her kids? I find it to all be the epitome of selfishness.

 

Michelle isn't seeking advice as to whether getting pregnant again is a good idea for her--her mind is made up on that score. Michelle is hoping that maybe this doctor will give her some magical advice, since her baby factory seems to have finally stripped a gear. The whole thing is a sad, sad indicator of how much Michelle has, over these many years, tied her worth to procreation. I think she is probably feeling utterly lost now that the baby-making has shifted to the next generation. She likely to battle some serious depression.

 

(Editing because spelling matters.)

Edited May 21, 2014 by NewBaku

[Absolom]

Michelle had a miscarriage with Jubilee. She's tried to make it into a stillbirth, but she was at least two weeks shy of the designation. She's already in the 1/5 to 1/4 range of the possibility of Down Syndrome. She's also in the over 60% chance of miscarriage should she conceive. That's with a less than 5% chance of conceiving (that's at age 45) and possibly as low as less than 1% chance of conception. Looking at that and she still hopes to "catch a baby" and wants to know what to do to maintain the pregnancy? She sounds to me like she's live in Lala land. I'd like to hope that Jim Bob grasps the situation, but I'm not convinced of that yet either.

[mbutterfly]

Just posted this as a comment on someone's FB:

A high-risk OB is not a fertility doctor, stupid Today Show. A fertility doctor is a reproductive endocrinologist. What they are doing is responsible. Many older women discuss it with a high-risk doc before deciding to have more kids. As do women with recent traumatic pregnancies/births, including me. At least they're trying to be informed.

Now, if the high-risk doc tells her the chances of her life being in danger are very high, would she actively try to prevent via birth control or having her tubes tied? That's an interesting question. It would be the ultimate FU internets.

Or begin a life of sexual abstinence? 

[wanderwoman]

I agree with everyone above.  But, I will go a step further and say that there's a bit of hypocrisy in their behavior.  If you claim to give God control over your fertility and "leave it to His timing", then you have to do just that.  So, even if you are menopausal, you accept it as Gods wisdom.  Especially after 20 kids!  And, there's no reason to go all the way to a specialist in Little Rock to have your blood drawn for hormone levels unless you WANT to get pregnant.  There was nothing said or done for a menopausal woman that couldn't have been done locally.

 

It was telling, to me, that Michelle said JIM BOB made the appointment.  I think there are only two reasons HE would make that appointment.

Scenario 1: Michelle is actively TRYING to conceive and is devastated when Aunt Flo comes every month.

Scenario 2: Aunt Flo is becoming less regular and Michelle gets all excited only to be slammed back into reality when it does come.

SCENARIO 3: She is pregnant and it's not going to end well.

 

Michelle doesn't live in reality.  She's in a delusional state about pregnancy.  She doesn't love and cherish her children- she cherishes the pregnancies and the attention and the mock authority that the fundies give her. If she's not pregnant and her babysitters start leaving the nest, she's finally going to have to do what she is most uncomfortable and unnatural at: raising those kids herself!

Edited May 21, 2014 by wanderwoman

[ramble]

Does anyone think Michelle has a secret desire to die in childbirth, thereby cementing her as the most giving-est, birthing-est mother of all time?

I struggle with jealously when I see babies & I'm past the age I would try. I really wanted another child but both my kids involved lots of true reproductive specialists help & my now ex started on his cheating binge so I gave that dream up. When I hear the Duggars talk about one more I hear "greedy" in my head, but I realize I can in no way be objective.

[Chris Knight]

Ramble, I have also thought that possibly Mullet wants to die in childbirth. She has mentioned she is willing to die for the next baby,.amd I think she wants us to admire her for that stance.

I also agree their doc visit is the epitome of greediness. They are absolutely disgusting. Shame on them.

[wanderwoman]

Being willing to die for for a pregnancy, leaving 19 children behind, is the most selfish, un-parental thing a woman could do.  In Michelle's case, she's proved it's not only possible to die, but probable!!! She has a history of preeclampsia since Jana and John David.  Every pregnancy after that was Russian roulette and she managed to stay lucky until Josie.  And, who paid the price for her greed? JOSIE!!  The pregnancy was terminated early to save the life of the mother.  If Michelle had truly believed her mantra of "willing to die", then she could've looked at Jim Bob and said, "Sedate me. Put me on life support. But, let this pregnancy go 9 more weeks."  THAT would've been a miracle.  Still selfish as well because her choice to keep tempting fate put her existing children through he'll...but possibly more in line with her stance.  

 

They can't state with any credibility that they don't believe in abortion because Josie was pulled from Michelle's body before she could survive on her own to save Michelle.  If Michelle had been even a week earlier, it would have been impossible to save Josie.  To then, a year later, get pregnant AGAIN is insanity.  Trying to make a 17 week pregnancy into a stillbirth is Michelle's mind game.  

[SometimesBites]

Michelle had a miscarriage with Jubilee. She's tried to make it into a stillbirth, but she was at least two weeks shy of the designation. She's already in the 1/5 to 1/4 range of the possibility of Down Syndrome. She's also in the over 60% chance of miscarriage should she conceive. That's with a less than 5% chance of conceiving (that's at age 45) and possibly as low as less than 1% chance of conception. Looking at that and she still hopes to "catch a baby" and wants to know what to do to maintain the pregnancy? She sounds to me like she's live in Lala land. I'd like to hope that Jim Bob grasps the situation, but I'm not convinced of that yet either.

 

As someone who has had both a miscarriage (11 weeks) and a full-term (39-week) stillbirth, I don't feel that exact calendar dates are very useful for labeling a pregnancy loss so decisively. In my thinking the loss of a 19-week-old fetus is far more similar to, say, a pregnancy lost at 22 weeks than is losing a 19-week-old fetus compared to a miscarriage at 10 weeks. Not meaning at all to quibble--just mean to be clear that I consider the Jubilee loss different than an early miscarriage. Either way, it is a terrible loss, and I don't understand Michelle's willingness to subject herself and her many, many, many children to such heartache again.

Edited May 21, 2014 by NewBaku

[all4mom]

She would probably rather die in childbirth than face a bleak 20 years of doing her own laundry, cooking her own meals, cleaning her own house, and raising a bunch of howlers; I know I would...  But then, I didn't have 19 children?  "You make your bed, you lie in it..."

[Absolom]

Stillbirth is a legal definition. It's 20 weeks. Is a later miscarriage tougher than an early one, for sure. But as many people say, words have meanings and in this case a legal meaning. The fetus died at closer to 18 weeks. Close to the defining line, yes. Do I begrudge Michelle the grief she had, not at all. It doesn't change the facts that there is a given legal and medical definition for her situation.

 

But also, they delivered Josie early when she was obviously viable. That's an early delivery not a termination. A termination is never intended to result in a living infant. And yes, delivered a week earlier Josie might have also survived. 24 weekers are routinely resuscitated and saved. Some hospitals are resuscitating 23 weekers if they look like they have a chance. There are even a few 22 weekers that have survived. It's considered fairly normal medical practice to deliver early even at 25 weeks in the circumstances Michelle was in.

[aunt jen]

As someone who has had both a miscarriage (11 weeks) and a full-term (39-week) stillbirth, I don't feel that exact calendar dates are very useful for labeling a pregnancy loss so decisively. In my thinking the loss of a 19-week-old fetus is far more similar to, say, a pregnancy lost at 22 weeks than is losing a 19-week-old fetus compared to a miscarriage at 10 weeks. Not meaning at all to quibble--just mean to be clear that I consider the Jubilee loss different than an early miscarriage. Either way, it is a terrible loss, and I don't understand Michelle's willingness to subject herself and her many, many, many children to such heartache again.

God, you too? 37.5 weeks here and I still barely use the s-word 6 years later. But I felt for Michelle. I mean, she's still often a clueless hypocrite (you were a tomboy who dated and got to wear pants and have a real education? Too bad your daughters can't say the same), but the photos and the funeral? I did not begrudge then that one tiny bit. Likewise, whatever her reason for going to the high-risk doc, the net effect is that they can't claim not being informed, and also, that the info given educated some viewers who might make responsible decisions, or at least might seek out a professional opinion themselves.

[wanderwoman]

Stillbirth is a legal definition. It's 20 weeks. Is a later miscarriage tougher than an early one, for sure. But as many people say, words have meanings and in this case a legal meaning. The fetus died at closer to 18 weeks. Close to the defining line, yes. Do I begrudge Michelle the grief she had, not at all. It doesn't change the facts that there is a given legal and medical definition for her situation.

 

But also, they delivered Josie early when she was obviously viable. That's an early delivery not a termination. A termination is never intended to result in a living infant. And yes, delivered a week earlier Josie might have also survived. 24 weekers are routinely resuscitated and saved. Some hospitals are resuscitating 23 weekers if they look like they have a chance. There are even a few 22 weekers that have survived. It's considered fairly normal medical practice to deliver early even at 25 weeks in the circumstances Michelle was in.

I completely see your point and I don't disagree. My point was that, for a group that openly proclaims that there is never a good enough reason for abortion (including to save the life of the mother), they came pretty close to the line between the two and, in fact, chose mom over baby.  I don't think they did the wrong thing and yes, due to a life flight, a team of highly specialized doctors, and a great medical system, Josie survived her ordeal.  But, in strictest terms, they ended the pregnancy by c-section to save Michelle.  It's just a touch hypocritical to me.  Your mileage may vary.

[NCChic]

I also agree their doc visit is the epitome of greediness. They are absolutely disgusting. Shame on them.

 

Here's my question: Isn't using a fertility doctor hindering God's plan? If birth control was their reasoning for a previous miscarriage and thus their desire not to interfer with the Lord's work, couldn't the same be said with trying to enhance your body to get pregnant? Perhaps it's the Lord's plan for you to stop with children.

 

I'm probably beating a dead horse here, but that question always pops up in my head whenever I see that commercial of them heading to the doctor.

[Marigny]

 

Michelle isn't seeking advice as to whether getting pregnant again is a good idea for her--her mind is made up on that score. Michelle is hoping that maybe this doctor will give her some magical advice, since her baby factory seems to have finally stripped a gear. The whole thing is a sad, sad indicator of how much Michelle has, over these many years, tied her worth to procreation. I think she is probably feeling utterly lost now that the baby-making has shifted to the next generation. She likely to battle some serious depression.

 

(Editing because spelling matters.)

  

I think Mullet is "seeking" the opinions of these fertility specialists - with cameras in tow - in hopes that one of them is a fame whore that will treat her for the publicity. It is not a coincidence that she's not seeking the advice of the doctor she's been going to for years. I wouldn't be surprised if he refuses to treat her for fear of malpractice law suits.

I agree with everyone above.  But, I will go a step further and say that there's a bit of hypocrisy in their behavior.  If you claim to give God control over your fertility and "leave it to His timing", then you have to do just that.  So, even if you are menopausal, you accept it as Gods wisdom.  Especially after 20 kids!  And, there's no reason to go all the way to a specialist in Little Rock to have your blood drawn for hormone levels unless you WANT to get pregnant.  There was nothing said or done for a menopausal woman that couldn't have been done locally.

 

It was telling, to me, that Michelle said JIM BOB made the appointment.  I think there are only two reasons HE would make that appointment.

Scenario 1: Michelle is actively TRYING to conceive and is devastated when Aunt Flo comes every month.

Scenario 2: Aunt Flo is becoming less regular and Michelle gets all excited only to be slammed back into reality when it does come.

SCENARIO 3: She is pregnant and it's not going to end well.

 

Michelle doesn't live in reality.  She's in a delusional state about pregnancy.  She doesn't love and cherish her children- she cherishes the pregnancies and the attention and the mock authority that the fundies give her. If she's not pregnant and her babysitters start leaving the nest, she's finally going to have to do what she is most uncomfortable and unnatural at: raising those kids herself!

So much word!

[Absolom]

Here's my question: Isn't using a fertility doctor hindering God's plan?

 

That would be true had Michelle seen a fertility specialist.  TLC was pulling a trick on the viewers again.  The doctor Michelle saw was a high risk pregnancy specialist - a MFM specialist.  In truth, any OB could have done the testing she had done and given her the same info. 

[merylinkid]

O heavens, she barely pays attention to preemie Josie and her continuing development problems.   Josie only gets held up when they want show the "evils" of abortion.  Can you imagine if Michelle had a child with Down's Syndrome?   There is no way Michelle would put in the effort that child needs to function to that child's fullest ability.   

 

God is telling you loud and clear MIchelle that you are done making babies.   Stop whining about wanting a baby so you can hear what the Big Guy Upstairs is telling you.

[Sew Sumi]

FWIW, in the clip with Josie's birth and Jubilee's loss, Mullet did correctly label Jubilee as a miscarriage. I guess the correct terminology was pounded into her head often enough, by the right people, for her to change the designation. I remember this because I was so shocked that she was actually right for once!

[MarkySnark]

So the Boob and the Mullet haven't been able to conceive No. 20? Guess the "leaving it up to God" talk goes out the window when the answer is a firm, "NO!" Also, they love science when it might help to make No. 20 possible, but when science proves that dinosaurs existed waaaayyy before humans or contradicts the Bible in other ways, then science is bad. I don't claim to be a theologian or anything close to that, but one thing I feel pretty good about saying is that neither God nor Jeebus has ever been keen on hypocrites.

[bigskygirl]

Mullet love the attention she got with Josie, so I could imagine what she would be like with a developmentally disabled child. I can picture the Duggars dragging the poor child around at their anti-abortion rallies. Of course, Josie probably would end up jealous because she is use to being the golden child.

Edited May 22, 2014 by bigskygirl

[Rhondinella]

The doctor Michelle saw was a high risk pregnancy specialist - a MFM specialist.  In truth, any OB could have done the testing she had done and given her the same info.

 

 

Of course, they had to find a doctor willing to appear on camera with these two.  I'm guessing most ran away in horror when they were asked to be involved.

[JennyMominFL]

They can't state with any credibility that they don't believe in abortion because Josie was pulled from Michelle's body before she could survive on her own to save Michelle.  If Michelle had been even a week earlier, it would have been impossible to save Josie.  To then, a year later, get pregnant AGAIN is insanity.  Trying to make a 17 week pregnancy into a stillbirth is Michelle's mind game.  

 

To go along with this, If they really believe it's a baby from conception than she is really the mother of 21 . This show should be 21 and counting. Seems like the 2 failed pregnancies reallt don't count. No pun intended.

Edited May 23, 2014 by CuriousParker

[MrMattyMatt]

Of course, they had to find a doctor willing to appear on camera with these two.  I'm guessing most ran away in horror when they were asked to be involved.

Very true, Dr Sarver, who was their high-risk obgyn in the earlier days, seemed to be more and more annoyed each time J'Chelle was pregnant again.

[all4mom]

Now I remember that female OBGYN; it's been so long since M was pregnant, I nearly forgot!

[Absolom]

Dr Sarver, who was their high-risk obgyn

 

Amy Sarver is a regular OB not high risk.  :)

[MrMattyMatt]

I could have sworn they said Dr Sarver specialized in high risk or something similar.  Oh well, she seems to be out of the picture now.

[CousinOliver]

I think the doctor's visit was nothing more than the producers keeping the show's name viable. They should really change it to "The Duggars: Growing up and moving out (through marriage only!)" or "19 kids and courting" or something. They're not still counting, no matter how many times JB and M say they'd welcome more or hint at adoption.

I think Michelle wants another baby, but she's not interested in the opinion of some doctor when God opens wombs or some such something.

[Ivy26]

Honestly, they need to knock this down to yearly updates.  People would tune in to see where the kids are, careerwise and marriage wise.  But I could give a rat's ass about trips to markets, packing the stanky bus for trips to the Bateses. 

 

I think Dr. Sarver bowed out before Josie.  And a doctor can refuse to see a patient if the patient liability becomes too great (but will refer and recommend another doctor).  It's a double edged sword:  Let's say the next (oh god no) pregnancy is successful.  Remember how much crap the doctor of Octo Mom got?  This doctor will be critized for saying it was okay to proceed.  Let's say something goes horribly wrong.  This doctor will be vilified in the media, possibly face Board sanctions, and possibly a lawsuit.  Because it won't be the Duggars fault, heavens no!

 

I have four children.  The last pregnancy was my twins, and it was a high risk stressful thing.  I had my tube tied (yup, singular.  Ectopic in the past), and while I sometimes miss the feeling of pregnancy, I am grateful I have four overall healthy children.  Michelle has NINETEEN.  You are in the grandma phase, enjoy the "blessings" God has already given you.  Let.  It.  GO!

[Portia]

Tiny tots are absolutely precious, no doubt, but I've always been a bit impatient with people who fetishize infancy and toddlerhood.  I can't tell you how many times I've heard a mother say of her children, "Oh, I just wish I could keep them little," and sometimes I've had the boldness to point out (gently, I hope) that helping them grow up is kind of the point of parenthood, and that, for all the hard work and occasional frustration of parenting preteen, teen, and young adult children, it's extremely gratifying to watch your kids developing into decent, responsible, good-hearted adult human beings.

 

And for someone who supposedly trusts and obeys God unquestioningly, Michelle seems awfully reluctant to relax into this new stage in life.  She does realize she's going to have, like, billions of grandchildren to cuddle, right?

Edited May 25, 2014 by Portia

[iluvobx]

I could have sworn they said Dr Sarver specialized in high risk or something similar.  Oh well, she seems to be out of the picture now.

They went to Dr. Sarver because she would do the V-back.  (Vagina birth after a couple of C-sections).

She did seems to be annoyed with the amount of pregnancies.  

Didn't Anna use Dr. Sarver when she was pregnant with Mac?

[andromeda331]

Yes Anna did use Dr. Sarver, there was even an episode of Josh and Anna going to a doctor's appointment with JimBob and Michelle.

[SmallTownMom]

Whoever said earlier that Michelle will have a bunch of grandchildren to cuddle......that should make her happy but it won't.  I have never seen her cuddle the M kids, nor seem happy to see them.  I miss my granddaughter if I don't see her every couple of days!  Now that the Smuggars are in DC, you would think she would make the most of the time she does get to spend with them.

 

Michelle only wants the attention pregnancy gives her.  "And yes, I delivered every one of them!"

[bigskygirl]

Mullet was paying attention to Marcus since he was under six months old. I think Mack and Michael could care less about her.

[Ljohnson1987]

Mullet is a pregnancy addict. Instead of fueling her addiction by trying to have another baby, Boob should taking her to a therapist.  These people do not need any more blessings. J'Chelle doesn't even care about any of the 19, or three grandkids they have. 

[andromeda331]

Michelle only wants the attention pregnancy gives her.  "And yes, I delivered every one of them!"

 

 

Yep you see the looks she gives Anna when Anna announces she's pregnant? 

[Ljohnson1987]

Daggers. "Damn. Why can't that be me?" J'Chelle fuels on the attention that she receives when she's pregnant 

[Absolom]

Episode fodder is the only reason I have.  They might not have been able to get a doctor any closer to them to agree to filming. 

[MarkySnark]

More than just agreeing to being filmed, that doc may have been the only one that didn't laugh and say, "Are you freakin' crazy??" when asked if J'Chelle should or would "catch a baby."

[Ljohnson1987]

I wonder if the dr.'s who treat J'Chelle see some kind of notority  in it. I hope not. 

[Ljohnson1987]

Why don't we ask J'Chelle and Boob what they did when they dated? I bet it wasn't side hugs, and no kissing or hand holding. They're such hypocrites. It was okay for them to do whatever, but their kids can't? It just proves that they don't trust them, and want to control their lives for as long as they can.
 

[MrMattyMatt]

Why don't we ask J'Chelle and Boob what they did when they dated? I bet it wasn't side hugs, and no kissing or hand holding. They're such hypocrites. It was okay for them to do whatever, but their kids can't? It just proves that they don't trust them, and want to control their lives for as long as they can.

 

I'm sure they did much more that they are willing to admit.  They often say "We don't want our kids to make the same mistakes we made"   No idea what that means or what the difference is....

[MarkySnark]

And, if they made those "mistakes" and still turned out to be the favorite couple of Jeebus and Gothard, who's to say that what they did were the wrong things? They should loosen the reins a bit and, since they are such devout followers, trust what they have taught their kids. It's like they know they have kept too tight a grip on the kiddos their whole lives and it's too late to turn back.

[Wordsworth]

On the other hand, is it hypocritical for people who did drugs when they were young to tell their children it's not a good idea?

 

Jim Bob and Michelle obviously believe their younger selves made mistakes when dating and want to make sure their kids don't make the same mistakes.  We can agree or disagree with them, but I'm not convinced that makes them hypocrites. 

[MrMattyMatt]

Whenever they bring up the "mistakes", they show J'Chelle as a cheerleader pic.  There's always this underlying assumption that she is the one with baggage.  I think they might have went into a bit of detail in the first book about it, a previous relationship or something...

[SometimesBites]

Whenever they bring up the "mistakes", they show J'Chelle as a cheerleader pic.

 

Yes, they sure do. I figure it's because she's showing so much defrauding knee. L'il vixen. ;)

[wanderwoman]

On the other hand, is it hypocritical for people who did drugs when they were young to tell their children it's not a good idea?

 

Jim Bob and Michelle obviously believe their younger selves made mistakes when dating and want to make sure their kids don't make the same mistakes.  We can agree or disagree with them, but I'm not convinced that makes them hypocrites. 

Drug use WILL have very real, measurable, physical and emotional side effects.  There's really no good in drug use.  So, when a parent says, "I did drugs. It had these consequences for me and I love you too much to watch you do drugs.", it's reasonable.  What Jim Bob and Michelle are saying is, "we made mistakes in our relationship and sexuality and spirituality,....and we emerged relatively unscathed, in a happy marriage, with 19 kids and counting....but YOU will not have the same luck."  They're using an over-dramatic, false threat of horrible heartbreak and spiritual danger to keep the kids at home and firmly in their control.  The hypocrisy comes from the fact that they claim they have taught the kids so well, and they are so spiritually pure, but don't actually trust their kids not to go heels  to Jesus if left alone and unsupervised.  If you consider Jim Bob and Michelle s marriage as a success, then you have to give some credit to the way they got there and neither of them needed enforced purity to get it.  A lack of bad experiences isn't necessarily the BEST way to go through life.  We learn and grow by our bad choices just as well as the good ones. Protecting your children as hard core as the Duggars have can backfire just as surely as it can succeed.  If there is no physical or sexual chemistry in a relationship, what then?  If you don't learn that he/she is not your ideal mate until after the wedding, then what?  That's not to say that kids should run out and bang ten people before settling down, but this intimacy ban is silly.  

Edited May 28, 2014 by wanderwoman

[Wordsworth]

I must have then misunderstood the accusation of hypocrisy.  To me, the claim was was that, since Michelle and/or Jim Bob had done things in their youth, they have no right to tell their own children not to do those things. 

 

 

[wanderwoman]

I must have then misunderstood the accusation of hypocrisy.  To me, the claim was was that, since Michelle and/or Jim Bob had done things in their youth, they have no right to tell their own children not to do those things. 

I think it's more like, what the hell was so bad about what Jim Bob and Michelle did that they have to prevent their children from doing it.  

Michelle's big "mistakes" were.... 

Wearing pants.

Washing a car in a bikini in front of a neighbor.

Dating a few guys and, horror of horrors, doing more than a side hug.

Not giving power over her life to her dad or God.

Being a cheerleader and a Tom boy.

Using birth control.

There's nothing earth shattering about her life, but if you listen to her talk about it, she was evil incarnate, defrauding men and boys, and even after converting and marrying Jim Bob, she felt that God punished her with a miscarriage.  It's ridiculous.  They circled the wagons to o prevent an Indian attack that didn't exist in the first place.  DESPITE giving pieces of her heart to other boys, Jim Bob and Michelle have a happy, long marriage.  So, what exactly is she protecting them from.  The hypocrisy, in my opinion, is that they claim the kids have been trained so well, but they don't allow them to be tempted and prove that their training worked.  The hypocrisy is that, despite Michelle's experience helping her learn about herself and find Jim Bob and appreciate his worth,  she denies her children the same opportunity for growth.  It's not just dating.  It's being a cheerleader or playing team sports or defying strict gender roles...all things Michelle got to do, making her choices actual choices instead of laws.  They claim that the children get to chooseth their clothing standards, for example, but there's no "choice" if you present wearing pants and showing leg as sinful.   

I must have then misunderstood the accusation of hypocrisy.  To me, the claim was was that, since Michelle and/or Jim Bob had done things in their youth, they have no right to tell their own children not to do those things. 

I think it's more like, what the hell was so bad about what Jim Bob and Michelle did that they have to prevent their children from doing it.  

Michelle's big "mistakes" were.... 

Wearing pants.

Washing a car in a bikini in front of a neighbor.

Dating a few guys and, horror of horrors, doing more than a side hug.

Not giving power over her life to her dad or God.

Being a cheerleader and a Tom boy.

Using birth control.

There's nothing earth shattering about her life, but if you listen to her talk about it, she was evil incarnate, defrauding men and boys, and even after converting and marrying Jim Bob, she felt that God punished her with a miscarriage.  It's ridiculous.  They circled the wagons to o prevent an Indian attack that didn't exist in the first place.  DESPITE giving pieces of her heart to other boys, Jim Bob and Michelle have a happy, long marriage.  So, what exactly is she protecting them from.  The hypocrisy, in my opinion, is that they claim the kids have been trained so well, but they don't allow them to be tempted and prove that their training worked.  The hypocrisy is that, despite Michelle's experience helping her learn about herself and find Jim Bob and appreciate his worth,  she denies her children the same opportunity for growth.  It's not just dating.  It's being a cheerleader or playing team sports or defying strict gender roles...all things Michelle got to do, making her choices actual choices instead of laws.  They claim that the children get to chooseth their clothing standards, for example, but there's no "choice" if you present wearing pants and showing leg as sinful.