S05.E03: Episode Three

[RealityTVSmack]

With servants around all the time, wouldn't there have been some kind of understood system in place for keeping things private? A closet that locked and only had one key, or at least a lockbox under the bed? Something that was the owner's only, and any servant knew they'd be sacked immediately if they were found to be messing about with it? It seems that they would have had to have some kind of convention for that, to keep the birth control and the love letters and whatnot in. Or was there really that level of trust (or dismissiveness) that servants knew everything about the masters' business, and just never, ever used it against them?

Very good point...IRL I would suppose each room had a safe where papers/money could be kept. It really seemed idiotic to give Anna a bag of birth control to keep. Now we all know that later those items will be found by Bates as part of a huge emotional scandal. Poor Anna will be made to pay for her loyalty towards Mary. No good deed seems to go unpunished in Downton Abbey?!?

[pbutler111]

I'm really impressed by Mary's thoroughness in vetting a potential husband to make sure that they're sexually compatible. Couldn't help but notice, though, that, so far, she's not even shown the most fleeting look of mild concern over whether or not this guy might get along with her son. Love her priorities!

[RedHawk]

I really enjoyed Cora's storyline with Bricker. As some have said, we finally get to see Elizabeth McGovern act! And they have lovely chemistry together. I like that Fellowes is giving Cora this "woman of a certain age" story because it's more true to life than several of the plots we're suffering through. She's been married -- what was it -- 32 years? Her husband loves her but doesn't think that she might have actual opinions and interests worth hearing about. She has raised her children, helped run a military hospital, suffered great loss, and now feels the restlessness of wanting more. We've seen glimpses before and now it's time for Cora to emerge from her shell!

[RealityTVSmack]

I just had a wild thought, but I'm not sure if the timing is right.  Could Green have been the footman who used Baxter?  I know she provided a different name, but if someone is that horrible, he must have a million aliases.  And , if so, could she be the one who killed him?  Help me out with the timing everyone.  Was she working for Lady Cora when he raped Anna?  I can't remember.

This would be interesting and could be why Baxter told Cora she did not wish to go to the police to turn in the horrible Machiavellian footman whose spell she was under when committing the theft...she knew he was dead already!!! Love this possibility...the characters point the finger at each other and poof we are all surprised that it was Baxter!

[jadecorleone]

I must say, it was worth the price of admission to hear Mrs. Patmore (or was it Daisy) say 'spotted dick'. I don't even want to know. I noticed it on the homepage, though, for a different program. And yes, sometimes I'm 12.

Speaking as someone who still chuckles when they hear the words "dill weed"  no judgement here.

 

For me the best part was seeing the normally so composed (for her anyways) Violet get all flustered at seeing the Prince. And the look on Isobel's face

[Abstract]

I really enjoyed Cora's storyline with Bricker. As some have said, we finally get to see Elizabeth McGovern act! And they have lovely chemistry together. I like that Fellowes is giving Cora this "woman of a certain age" story because it's more true to life than several of the plots we're suffering through. She's been married -- what was it -- 32 years? Her husband loves her but doesn't think that she might have actual opinions and interests worth hearing about. She has raised her children, helped run a military hospital, suffered great loss, and now feels the restlessness of wanting more. We've seen glimpses before and now it's time for Cora to emerge from her shell!

Except it's such a familiar plot line that it feels like I've already seen it more than once. Takes me back to when I watched the Waltons as a kid, and Olivia took an art class and nearly had a fling with the teacher. On Parenthood the grandmother actually did have a fling with the art teacher.

[RealityTVSmack]

I guess Mary's grateful she took Tony for a test drive, since now she knows she doesn't fancy herself being married to him, but now he's latched on and she can't shake him. I'm sure she'll figure something out, what with her "cold and unfeeling way" and all.

Well darn it if Mary didn't go get her itch scratched...that should last her for awhile...till her next itch, lol. Guess Tony was disappointing in more than one way...like he's boring as hell and lousy in the sack!

 

I haven't enjoyed Cora this much since her righteous anger with Donk after Sybil's death. But my lord are she and Simon the sparkliest. I liked hearing her talk about her pre-Downton life.

 

Anyway...I agree with the poster who said something to the effect that Cora may have been portrayed as a dim bulb all these years, but only because that was all she was allowed to be. It's very possible she could have a great interest/aptitude for art but she simply never got the opportunity to express it (and the story runs a very nice parallel with Daisy's). Donk treats her like shit, honestly, and it's nice to see her finally realizing that.

I agree Cora needed a little more fleshing out...out from under Donk's thumb. My goodness she has been lackluster dragging around Downton it was so nice to see her out in the world being treated like an equal. She comes back from dinner and there's Donk reminding her she's subservient to him once more.

 

 

Still not much sympathy for Edith. I feel bad that she lives in a time where she's not allowed to raise her own child under certain circumstances, but she's got some serious blinders on. Yeah, I get it, she loves her kid, but idk anyone who throws literally all common sense and decency out the window after giving birth. If anything, I thought having children helped people get a better perspective on things.

Edith has really messed up the pig farmer's lives with her placing Marigold with them and now jerking her away...at least that's how it looks in next weeks coming attractions. Oh and if Mrs. Drewe can visit little Marigold when she likes, huh...that should solve everything???

 

 

Any goodwill that Sarah built up with me when she was tutoring Daisy last episode has evaporated. Again, it's not what she says. It's how/when she says it. Read a room, lady!

Also dislike big mouth pushy Sarah...enough is enough. Right or wrong it seems like she shows prejudice towards the upstairs crowd by purposely making a spectacle of herself. Was she brought up in a barn...even the pig farmers know better than to insight guests? Tom should let her know she can share her thoughts with him, but that his family is off limits.

Edited January 19, 2015 by RealityTVSmack

[SoSueMe]

I'm really impressed by Mary's thoroughness in vetting a potential husband to make sure that they're sexually compatible. Couldn't help but notice, though, that, so far, she's not even shown the most fleeting look of mild concern over whether or not this guy might get along with her son. Love her priorities!

There does seem to be very little hands-on time with the kids, George or Sybbie, so I guess for the times it was more important that a child get along with their nanny.

 

Marigold, on the other hand, seems to be getting lots of face time with her natural mommy, at least til the end of the episode.

[applecrisp]

Glade, oh God, I know.  The Russian aristocracy does not stir my sympathies one bit.  Peasants were basically serfs there and treated like dirt:  the ruling class got what they deserved when they lost power.  I'm not talking about shooting the Tsar's family, of course.  But loss of wealth and position?  Cry me a river. That one prince got so butthurt when Sarah said something about the Tsar.  Sure, she needs to just shut her mouth sometimes (and that was one of them) but it was like the guy couldn't BEAR to hear anyone question him.  Just like Robert.  A big baby. 

  

I agree so much with you, yet when Violet talked about going to Russia it did seem somehow magical.  

 

I am endlessly fascinated by the Russian aristocracy.  I would not watch this show otherwise.  It all really is very dreary if you think about it-the endless routine.  I would not like to be in the upstairs or the downstairs of Downton, better to be a merchant or a merchant's wife.

[pbutler111]

I just had a wild thought, but I'm not sure if the timing is right. Could Green have been the footman who used Baxter? I know she provided a different name, but if someone is that horrible, he must have a million aliases. And , if so, could she be the one who killed him?

This doesn't seem likely to me. I think Baxter was at Downton when Green was. But, regardless, the reason Baxter went to prison is because she'd already given these valuable jewels to this footman. It seems unlikely that this same guy would still be working in service amongst the aristocracy in the same area.

[Constantinople]

It's a bit pot & kettle, but I was greatly amused when Robert & Cora were talking about the war and Robert said, in essence, that Mary did jack shit.

[morakot]

Mrs Pattmore is basically the executive chef of a farm-to-table restaurant and Daisy is her sous-chef. She manages her own budget, sets menus (with minimal input from the establishment owner (Cora) and essentially hires and fires her own staff. She's provided on the job training for Daisy and is paying for other education out of her own pocket. It's not a bad position.

[ShadowFacts]

I hate everything about the Bates/Green storyline, it is all ill-conceived.  The fact that someone turns up with information so much later smells of a set-up to me.  I doubt anyone heard Green say anything, and "what are you doing here?" is meaningless absent someone seeing Green being purposely shoved. 

 

Mary and her paper bag, ugh, poor Anna.  She had crummy alternatives -- insubordination, or taking the groty thing.  Besides, if anything happens to it, she will be sent back to the pharmacy.  Mary is such an entitled jerk.  She is presumably not going to be using it at Downton anytime soon, so she should have gotten rid of it herself. 

[SusanSunflower]

What exactly is Baxter's connection with Thomas Barrow that she knows his parents longtime? I missed that. (and I won't ask why being a childhood friend of Thomas Barrow**-- if that's what it was -- would be the only reference the Grantham's would require -- some prior employer, some proof she has the skills required, etc.)  Also, Barrow's been at Downton a longtime now ... (amazingly silent rumor mill that no one downstairs failed to hear anything about Baxter)

Edited January 19, 2015 by SusanSunflower

[Driad]

 

Have we seen Isobel interacting with her grandson George?  I don't recall her even mentioning him much, maybe because George is the child of the unmentionable Matthew.

[Pallas]

Here's an interesting idea for Julian Fellowes - how about a story line where Edith and Mary put aside their differences for the greater good, some cause that they both get behind and forces them to realize that blood is thicker than water.

 

How welcome that would be.  But I suppose Fellowes could protest that he did so, when Mary and Edith pursued Sybil and Tom to intervene on their elopement.  "And look how that turned out!  Lovely little Jessica Brown Findlay took it into her head to abandon us all, planting the seed with Dan Stevens, all but demanding that I murder a young mother in childbirth and then a new father on the day his son and heir was born -- as the climax of the Christmas Special!  I can't put the nation through that again." 

[Dirtybubble]

I hate everything about the Bates/Green storyline, it is all ill-conceived.  The fact that someone turns up with information so much later smells of a set-up to me.  I doubt anyone heard Green say anything, and "what are you doing here?" is meaningless absent someone seeing Green being purposely shoved.

 

ITA!  How long has it been since Green died, a year?  Two?  All of a sudden this is being brought up because I witness hear him say what are you doing here?  I feel like the writers just want to give the Anna & Bates some sort of story so they think they'll keep beating this dead horse.  It's a shame really because I like both these characters and thoroughly enjoyed them while they were courting but this....this is so tiresome.  The writers could have made an interesting little side story of them with that stupid birth control and book in Anna's coat pocket.  Bates maybe could have found it and thought she was trying to avoid the idea of having children or something.  Something other than this Mr. Green b.s.!

 

I can't really remember what Baxter's connection with Barrow is.  I think she had mentioned they were childhood friends/classmates or something like that.  Enh, I guess it's not really important but I have a feeling that Baxter knowing Tom's father is.  What if she calls or visits to check on his dad and sees he isn't ill, then she'll have a little somethin-somethin' on him!

[helenamonster]

I am trying to figure out where Bates got the time to murder Green. Downton Abby really is near York which is 200 miles away from London which would have been at least a 4 hour train ride both ways. Servants at that time, if lucky, got one afternoon off a week and every other Sunday. They also had a curfew on their days off.

 

Well, at the time of Green's death, Robert was in the states and had taken Thomas with him at the request of Mary, who was imparting the request of Mrs. Hughes, who wanted to help Bates stay at Downton for Anna's sake. Bates was pretty much just idling away his days and didn't really have to be in the house very much at all. Still, it is still quite a long journey that could not have been stuffed into one day. Though I doubt any of that matters because I'm still convinced Bates is a red herring.

 

Yes, I thought Mary was threatening Anna which reminded me of last week talking about how her parents had big rooms and many servants and she just has Anna and Anna has to suck it up and be Mary's confidante and keeper of Mary's intimate secrets, because Mary has no female friends her own age. Servants were expected to be discreet, but Mary announced, imho, she was going adding to Anna's official job description.

 

Anna has been performing duties outside of her job description since she helped Mary carry a body across the house twelve years ago in show time. I doubt she'd see very much as off-limits these days, even if she finds the task distasteful.

 

What exactly is Baxter's connection with Thomas Barrow that she knows his parents longtime? I missed that. (and I won't ask why being a childhood friend of Thomas Barrow**-- if that's what it was -- would be the only reference the Grantham's would require -- some prior employer, some proof she has the skills required, etc.)  Also, Barrow's been at Downton a longtime now ... (amazingly silent rumor mill that no one downstairs failed to hear anything about Baxter)

 

She said that she was a friend of his sister's growing up.

 

ITA!  How long has it been since Green died, a year?  Two?  All of a sudden this is being brought up because I witness hear him say what are you doing here?  I feel like the writers just want to give the Anna & Bates some sort of story so they think they'll keep beating this dead horse.  It's a shame really because I like both these characters and thoroughly enjoyed them while they were courting but this....this is so tiresome.  The writers could have made an interesting little side story of them with that stupid birth control and book in Anna's coat pocket.  Bates maybe could have found it and thought she was trying to avoid the idea of having children or something.  Something other than this Mr. Green b.s.!

 

Oh trust me. That is definitely coming.

 

Actually, it would be a kind of interesting story/conflict for Anna and Bates to have. Servants usually didn't marry, so they could afford to give their utmost loyalty to their employers. But that's not the situation for Anna and Bates. By keeping Mary's secret, Anna could possibly be endangering herself. Does she give Mary up or protect her? Which obligation matters more, that to her employer or that to her husband? While I'm definitely nervous about Bates finding the diaphragm, it is the basis for a different kind of conflict.

 

I thought for half a second that Green might have been "Peter Coyle," but now I'm not so sure. Baxter wasn't at Downton at the time of the rape, but she was there when Green came back to visit and noticed all the awkward looks between him, Anna, and Bates. They seemed to get along well and there was no hint of them having met before.

[lucindabelle]

 

Was she brought up in a barn...even the pig farmers know better than to insight guests?

Thank you RealityTvSmack. This is my objection to Donk's overt rudeness. I've known a lot of people with inherited wealth, grew up among them, and his overt rudeness to Sarah feels sooooo phony to me. What he might say about her privately or out of earshot another matter, but to let on so overtly to a guest that he dislikes her is very common.

 

And of course, Sarah's no better. Tone deaf.

 

Elizabeth McGovern is 53, hardly an "old lady." Was surprised Bricker didn't contradict her there.

 

Politically, no, no sympathy for the Russians, but I do pity them as people. The family of the Czar actualoly didn't have it all that easy-- I was reading up on this after "Anastasia" came on TV for the umpty umpth time. The princess had a narrow cot, washed in cold water, they all had to get up eearly, had many duties etc. I'm not excusing anything, just saying their luxury was far less luxurious than the Downton brats.

 

I've always found it peculiar that none of the wounded soldiers proposed to Edith. In real life, they surely would have. Then again, in real life, the young women would all have friends or at least refer to them.

[RedHawk]

Well darn it if Mary didn't go get her itch scratched...that should last her for awhile...till her next itch, lol.

 

 

I thought the problem was that Mary didn't feel any itch around Tony. That's the way I read it at least. It seemed to be the most passionless courtship, and while she apparently got a good many hours sleep after their, um, endless nights of love, she clearly hadn't fallen in love with him. What's all this "I do love you" from her -- what did she actually mean? She loved Matthew and apparently felt real physical attraction for him. I don't think it took her a full week to realize Tony wasn't going to awaken her cold heart. 

 

And having written that, I sympathize with her predicament of having to tell Tony that she cares deeply for him but he's a dud in the drawing room AND in the sack. He's ready to call the vicar and she just wants out. 

Edited January 19, 2015 by RedHawk

[pbutler111]

Is there any chance whatsoever that Thomas won't at some point plant something valuable of Cora's/the household in Baxter's room? Any chance at all?

I actually don't understand Mary's animosity toward Edith. I could understand it in season one when Edith was being such a see-you-next-Tuesday all the time, but now? What basis does she have for constantly riding Edith's jock now? You'd think, having been through such a tragedy as her husband's death, and the shared tragedy of Sybil's death, she'd have grown and mellowed enough to have bit of sympathy for Edith, who hasn't been horrid for quite a long time, and who's had her own challenges, both known and unknown. I think this non-stop petty meanness toward her only living sister makes Mary seem incredibly immature.

[jumper sage]

I agree so much with you, yet when Violet talked about going to Russia it did seem somehow magical.  

 

I am endlessly fascinated by the Russian aristocracy.  I would not watch this show otherwise.  It all really is very dreary if you think about it-the endless routine.  I would not like to be in the upstairs or the downstairs of Downton, better to be a merchant or a merchant's wife.

Me too!  A great book addresses this whole "Alfies marriage".  I nearly jumped when they spoke of it.  I am a history buff and therefor have read The Reluctant King, the Life and Reign of George VI.  I read another great book From Splendor to Revolution which is the story coming from the Russian side.  I wanted to jump through the tv and look at the items at the tea.  The intermingling of the royal families, the politics, the love stories is too much to go into here but I love it all. A book that speaks to the incident in the show:  Fatal Passion:, A: The Story of the Uncrowned Last Empress of Russia

 

I some times have to brace myself for each episode.  Dreary, morose, miserable - all words I use with this show and yet I can't look away.  The whole Russian thing was a nice diversion.

 

I actually don't understand Mary's animosity toward Edith. I could understand it in season one when Edith was being such a see-you-next-Tuesday all the time, but now? What basis does she have for constantly riding Edith's jock now?

Don't forget the Mr. Pamuk storyline.  Edith did contact his family.  Not something I could forget, but then Mary got her back that summer.

 

Ok, the dates on the threads is confusing me.  First time it ran in UK?

Edited January 19, 2015 by jumper sage

[dustoffmom]

 

From Splendor to Revolution

Wonderful book!!!  Fellow history lover here!

[Diane M]

Why must Mary wed either Tony or Blake?  It's pretty obvious that she doesn't love Tony and is willing to settle.  That would make a pretty miserable marriage.  Are there no other single 30ish men of some wealth in the north of England?

 

I think the most interesting part of Episode 3 was the missing Thomas.  What's his story?  I doubt if his father is sick.

 

Cora STILL has not made up her mind about Baxter.....    Yes she did.  She's letting her stay.

 

There's little doubt Bates killed Green,     Really?  I agree with another poster who thinks Bates is just a red herring.  

 

So, I guess Bates is an accused murderer...again?   Accused?  He wasn't arrested, so maybe just a suspect.

 

Poor Anna is going to get beaten by Bates.  Was this a poor attempt at a joke?  He worships Anna and would never physically harm her.  

 

I'm as tired of this Green death story as anyone else .  Bates is not a bad man.  He has spent years in prison twice for crimes he didn't commit.  He's fought for his country, survived years with the horrid Vera, and now has a loving marriage.  Come on, Fellowes, let him and Anna have some peace.

 

Mary dressed herself that entire week?  Does she really know how?

[RedHawk]

Mary dressed herself that entire week?  Does she really know how?

 

 

Ha ha! Well, Tony helped. 

[applecrisp]

Thanks Jumper Sage for the recommendations.  The Tsar and his wife were not remarkable in any way except that they loved their family and were killed very brutally.  So it is still shocking to me, now.  I would think it would have been quite painful to the people who knew them.  I guess I don't think it was an over-reaction for the aristocrats at that time who were at Downton.

 

I remember when the leaders of Romania were taken out and shot.  The aftermath was shown on the news and I was shocked.  That they deserved it was another story.

[SusanSunflower]

Mary dressed herself that entire week?  Does she really know how?

 

As a long-time diaphragm user myself,  "does she really know how" made me laugh -- umm, no.  I recall my first experience with using said contraception in some place other than my own home ... while camping .... just no, fortunately the man I was with was able to laugh with me, and that was with modern spermacides. The disposable contraceptive sponge was a wonderful thing -- It's back, now called "Today" -- No idea about any pro's and con's. Last time I was using them, rubber diaphragms got holes if they were not properly washed and dried and allowed enough "air" in storage. The disposables were a god-send in the case of a suddenly discovered emergency.

Edited January 19, 2015 by SusanSunflower

[MissT]

I could be way off - but I think Barrow secretly loves Anna.  She's so nice to him.  He's jealous of Bates and he killed Green.    Just my 2 cents.

[Diane M]

Well, I meant her clothes, but I guess her diaphragm could be included in that.  I think that's one thing she HAS to do herself.

[LittleIggy]

Thanks Jumper Sage for the recommendations.  The Tsar and his wife were not remarkable in any way except that they loved their family and were killed very brutally.  .

Same sort of thing with Louis VI and Marie Antoinette. When they got in the bed it was already on fire, so to speak. MA was an almost illiterate child bride when she got married to the clumsy, awkward teenager Louis. The way their poor son was abused by his Revolutionary keepers was heartbreaking.

[Constantinople]

Why must Mary wed either Tony or Blake?

Because it will be 54 years until Jill Clayburgh stars in An Unmarried Woman

 

It's pretty obvious that she doesn't love Tony and is willing to settle. That would make a pretty miserable marriage.

Is Lady M willing to settle? Back in Season 1 she said, "I know you mean to help. I know you love me. But I also know what I’m capable of, and forty years of boredom and duty just isn’t possible for me. I’m sorry"

 

Are there no other single 30ish men of some wealth in the north of England?

I wonder. If you weed out the "troubled souls", as Mrs Patmore would say, there may not be that many, given the number of men that were killed in the war and who would have married in the six years since then. The few that remain can probably be quite finicky, so Lady Ice Cube may not be as attractive a match as before the war.

 

 

Mary dressed herself that entire week?  Does she really know how?

Now that you mention it, if Mary had been attending some informal conference in Liverpool, she almost certainly would have brought Anna with with her.

Edited January 19, 2015 by Constantinople

[SusanSunflower]

 

Now that you mention it, if Mary had been attending some informal conference in Liverpool, she almost certainly would have brought Anna with with her.

ITA, I had thought it was just a weekend (one could leave a diaphragm in for a weekend, though it's not recommended). I didn't see Mary as up-to-here fed-up with Tony, just sort of passively looking forward to him going to his room to retrieve his breakfast which he would totally bring into her room to "eat breakfast together" unless she slipped into the bath and made herself unavailable. She "knows" she's not that keen on him, but she's not willing to annoy him or make a honest declaration -- and beside, it's flattering to have someone so "besotted" with you, except he really isn't (AFAICT), he's going through the expected repertoire of a suitor, including (tiresomely, rudely) showing up at Downton a day later. How could he read her mind, when she's not even "inconstant" in her affections.

Edited January 19, 2015 by SusanSunflower

[ZoloftBlob]

Is Lady M willing to settle? Back in Season 1 she said, "I know you mean to help. I know you love me. But I also know what I’m capable of, and forty years of boredom and duty just isn’t possible for me. I’m sorry"

 

Ironically - at the end of the day, while she wasn't bored I think, that's pretty much what she had with Matthew and what she would get with either Tony or Charles.

 

ETA - I'm just saying her married life was hardly biting into a York Peppermint Patty

Edited January 19, 2015 by ZoloftBlob

[Pallas]

I agree with you though that Edith needs to get a grip and tell Mrs Drewe the truth already because it would make the situation easier for everyone involved.

Too ridiculous that Mary would ask Anna to keep it at her house when it could easily be hidden somewhere in Downton.

 

Avaleigh, the juxtaposition of those two sentences made me chuckle.  The Crawley girls hiding aftereffects or accessories of their illicit affairs in domestic staff's or tenant farmers' cottages, all over the estate.  Small wonder Robert is concerned about adding 50 new accommodations.  

 

As a long-time diaphragm  user myself,  "does she really know how" made me laugh -- umm, no.  I recall my first experience with using said contraception in some place other than my own home

 

Hoo boy.  May I ask what happens when you hear this word: "Boing!" 

[Cranston]

Largest question for me is...where did Thomas really go?  Surely his father isn't really ill.  Maybe it has something to do with the Green murder.  It almost has to be something Bates related.  Did he leave Downton before the mysterious witness to Green's offing showed up?  Maybe he's gone off to try again with young Jimmy.  

[chessiegal]

Re where is Thomas, I may have heard wrong, but I thought when he asked to use the telephone, in private, when he made the call he said something about wanting to place/answer a personal ad. Then he gets a call in return and he's off. I thought he was heading out for a tryst, but, like I said, I may not have heard correctly.

Edited January 19, 2015 by chessiegal

[Pallas]

I suspect Thomas may be pursuing a mid-1920's version of gender preference conversion therapy. The preview that reminded us of Jimmy's saying, "I hope you may find happiness."  His confession to Anna last week that he sometimes longs to belong.  Those things coupled with the ad that promised, "Choose your own path."  Ambiguous wording, to be sure, but it would have to be.

[SoSueMe]

I could be way off - but I think Barrow secretly loves Anna.  She's so nice to him.  He's jealous of Bates and he killed Green.    Just my 2 cents.

Well, he may love her in some fashion but I don't think romantically. It was made pretty clear that he's gay. Probably her acceptance has endeared her to him.

[SusanSunflower]

Are the previews of next week supposed to be "secret" or "spoilers"?  Do all PBS/American viewers see them?  -- Regardless, I groaned, loudly.

 

ETA: I'd actually rather NOT discuss them much less speculate what they "suggested" to me. Let me be surprised, in a good way.

I'll be happy to delete if requested.

Edited January 19, 2015 by SusanSunflower

[LilyoftheValley]

Re: Miss Bunting.  I got it.  Fellowes actually sees people who want change and social justice as being crass, rude, obnoxious, insensitive and not very sophisticated.  Recall that Tom used to be this character, and now Miss Bunting is this character.  Seriously, write a more complex character already!  

 

Oh, and count me in on not being able to tell Mary's suitors apart.  They both look and act exactly the same to me. You know, watching someone sort of half-ass date some guys who are not all that attractive or interesting makes for some really bad television.  How about if Mary starts banging the stable boy?  Gives us something.  You know this show is turning to shit when Cora is now the most interesting character.  

 

And really, Bates never was an interesting character and he never will be one.  You can make his stories as dark and intriguing as you want, but nothing will make Bates anything more than yawn-inducing.  Can the numerous policemen who talk to him finally just arrest him and take him away for good already?  

[ZoloftBlob]

He wasn't executed in secret. There's never been any secret about it from the army's point of view - he was just another deserter who got shot. It is the family who have tried to keep it secret, out of shame - and quite frankly there is no reason for the execution of a traitor in wartime to have become public knowledge, it was just another wartime death, from the point of view of the village where he lived, and his family want it to stay that way. That's why they are so upset about his name being left off the memorial, because it makes public something they have tried to keep private.

 

That's not how it went down - although the way it did go down is equally ridiculous and nonsensical.

 

In Season two, Mrs. Pattmore approached Robert to find out what happened to her nephew because the Army wouldn't tell them what happened - that's kinda the nonsensical and ridiculous part - you're absolutely right that in reality this wouldn't have been private from the Army's point of view and frankly there's no way the family wouldn't have gotten notification that they raised a coward who had to be executed. The British were not *kind* about that sort of thing. It tended to get publicized simply so people knew they would be bringing shame down on their families. But as portrayed in the story, the family was not told what happened to the nephew. That's why when Robert told her, Mrs. Hughes comforted her with how she didn't have to tell the boy's parents , that they should remember that he volunteered etc.

 

In theory the nephew's family may not even know this because it was never clear if Mrs. Pattmore told them. Although they would probably find out if they pressed for the memorial.

[JudyObscure]

Mrs.  Drewe was my MVP this week.  I've always enjoyed her barely concealed annoyance with the  kitchen guest who never leaves, then this week we saw a very realistic panic when she came home to an empty house, followed by her seething anger and jaw dropping disbelief when Edith said she was planning to show up uninvited the next day.  I wish we had been privy to her take down of Mr. Drewe.  It must have been quite a show of strength since it resulted in him telling Edith she couldn't come back, even though we know he's very sympathetic to her. 

 

My husband and I both laughed at the spotted dick line and then realized that we had indulged in vulgar humor and now Lady Mary would never marry us.

Edited January 20, 2015 by JudyObscure

[SusanSunflower]

Fellowes, and as far as I can tell a lot of people, have issues with the treatment of conscientious objectors in WWI -- which was not about cowardice, it was "civil disobedience" against a war that many in the lower classes believed had nothing to do with them. Moseley was definitely made a coward and draft dodger (with Dr. Clarkson's quite "criminal" assistance at Violet's insistence to avoid his Moseley's father losing his son). The Butler in Gosby Park (played by Alan Bates) was also a conscientious objector (who absolutely quivered in fear that his secret shame might become common knowledge).

 

To read "Goodbye to all That" and to consider Thomas Barrow (rather obviously) shot himself in the hand to be sent home, men broke fairly often. I think killing such "crack-ups" was not automatically brushed-over... too many men were cracking up -- getting sent home to rest -- and then being sent back to fight. This deserves a fact-check in my book. Perhaps some "Sophie's Choice" of killing someone shrieking in the trenches, endangering others might be excused, but in WWI, men were sent back to the front over and over and over ... it was brutal. Someone executed for "cracking up" probably would just be called a combat death to avoid anyone knowing about it.  Like "friendly fire." YMMV.

Edited January 20, 2015 by SusanSunflower

[ZoloftBlob]

Believe me, I am not saying it was *right* for the British to play the shame game so harshly, but they totally did and it was not hidden. If the nephew was found to be a coward, the family would have been told how he brought shame on them. There would not have been any need to have Mrs. Pattmore call in a favor with her employer to find out what happened.

Edited January 20, 2015 by ZoloftBlob

[iMonrey]

One line that stuck out to me was when Tony was telling Mary all the things she does that he pays attention to, like the way she dresses and the way she puts on her makeup. Wait, what? Would a proper young woman of the noble class have worn cosmetics in 1924? I know it's probably borderline, since this was more or less around the time that Elizabeth Arden made cosmetics acceptable to women who weren't prostitutes, but I'm not sure the daughter of an English Earl would have worn them at this point in history.

 

I really couldn't make heads nor tails of Baxter's story, the way she described her footman made it sound like he abused her and bullied her more than seduced her.

[Crs97]

Regarding Mary's continuing sniping at Edith, I put some blame on Michelle and Laura. They have been pretty vocal about their love of acting out those moments, and I think JF likes making them happy.

[SusanSunflower]

ZoloftBlob -- I agree completely ... Conscientious Objectors were summarily executed ... dragged to the battlefield and given a "choice" -- fight or die -- and killed. Other were imprisoned harshly -- but they were conscientious objectors  -- who were presumed cowards -- rather than refusniks. They weren't "draft dodgers" -- like Moseley -- they were "draft resistors" .. Oh and it was Farewell to All that -- Robert Graves.  Mrs. Pattimore would  not have asked, would not have stirred the ashes. Might have confessed her compassionate lie to immediate family so they might avoid doing so.

Edited January 20, 2015 by SusanSunflower

[RealityTVSmack]

Fellowes, and as far as I can tell a lot of people, have issues with the treatment of conscientious objectors in WWI -- which was not about cowardice, it was "civil disobedience" against a war that many in the lower classes believed had nothing to do with them. Moseley was definitely made a coward and draft dodger (with Dr. Clarkson's quite "criminal" assistance at Violet's insistence to avoid his Moseley's father losing his son). The Butler in Gosby Park (played by Alan Bates) was also a conscientious objector (who absolutely quivered in fear that his secret shame might become common knowledge).

 

To read "Goodbye to all That" and to consider Thomas Barrow (rather obviously) shot himself in the hand to be sent home, men broke fairly often. I think killing such "crack-ups" was not automatically brushed-over... too many men were cracking up -- getting sent home to rest -- and then being sent back to fight. This deserves a fact-check in my book. Perhaps some "Sophie's Choice" of killing someone shrieking in the trenches, endangering others might be excused, but in WWI, men were sent back to the front over and over and over ... it was brutal. Someone executed for "cracking up" probably would just be called a combat death to avoid anyone knowing about it.  Like "friendly fire." YMMV.

My great aunt was a nurse during WW I and was awarded the Croix de Guerre for saving the lives of soldiers poisoned by mustard gas on the Verdun front-line. She and her fellow nurses wore gas masks and worked tirelessly within a half-mile from the front. I agree it was horrendous to say the least.

 

FYI...the Battle of Verdun

This World War I siege stemmed from German General Erich von Falkenhayn’s edict to elicit major bloodshed from the French defense of the fortress complex around Verdun. German forces advanced quickly in February 1916, claiming Fort Douaumont and Fort Vaux after brutal subterranean melees. Despite coming within two miles of Verdun cathedral, the Germans called off their offensive in mid-July, and Falkenhayn was relieved of his position. The French retook their forts and pushed back the line, and by the time their forces ground to a halt in December, both sides were left with more than 600,000 casualties.

Edited January 20, 2015 by RealityTVSmack

[jschoolgirl]

Regarding makeup, we saw a Coty face powder box on Mary's vanity a few seasons back. Powder was certainly worn, as wel as "rouge" (a little-used term today), and probably some lipcolor.

I think Tony's use of the word "makeup" for someone not in the theater is anachronistic, though.

http://glamourdaze.com/history-of-makeup/1920s

Edited January 20, 2015 by jschoolgirl

[roomtorome]

MS is just a treasure; with so little she does more than the others who have full pages of dialogue.  I agree, her expression when she saw the prince covered so many layers of emotion/thought in just seconds.

 

I too love her and Isobel together - they are a hoot.  I think Fellowes gives certain characters/actors his best stuff - and the rest suffer with redundant stories/dialogue.  He really couldn't think of anything better than another murder mystery for Bates?  I liked him right from the start and I liked he and Anna together but the show just tortured them to the point that I wouldn't mind both being moved over and out of the series.  

 

Carson may just need to get laid, to put it crudely; it may lift his mood considerably.  It has probably been decades.

 

I don't see why Fellowes couldn't take this crew all the way into the 40s with the second world war - it's not like they all won't look exactly the same as the first episode all those years ago.  It's a magical estate - no one ages - not even a day.  

Edited January 20, 2015 by roomtorome