S04.E10: Fall

[Shanna Marie]

He can't be following commands and have free will at the same time.

He could have free will beyond the boundaries of his commandments. So Rumple may have ordered him not to try to save himself and not to tell anyone what's going on, and he may send him on errands, but then he might have free will outside those boundaries. He can go say goodbye to Emma but he can't tell her what Rumple's up to. He can hang around with Team Good Guys watching the curse roll in as long as Rumple doesn't need him for something else.

 

I have wondered why he hasn't tried killing himself. It might not stop the final stage of the plan since Rumple already has his heart, but it would prevent Rumple from using him to do his dirty work. Again, that's something we should maybe have seen, like him attempting and failing because Rumple prevented it, and that closes that plot hole. What would happen to Rumple's schemes if Hook had just stepped off the pier while holding the hat box?

 

This really should have been the two-hour episode. There's so much room for things that could have been added that would have explained things. Like, we could have seen Hans's Hot Brothers thawing at the castle gates, where they'd been frozen as they rushed to Hans's rescue, we could have seen Regina trying to burst through the wall with fire, we could have seen Rumple giving Hook specific orders and Hook trying to find loopholes, like trying to kill himself only to have Rumple prevent it.

[ABitOFluff]

He could have free will beyond the boundaries of his commandments. So Rumple may have ordered him not to try to save himself and not to tell anyone what's going on, and he may send him on errands, but then he might have free will outside those boundaries. He can go say goodbye to Emma but he can't tell her what Rumple's up to. He can hang around with Team Good Guys watching the curse roll in as long as Rumple doesn't need him for something else.

When Rumple took out his heart, the thing I worried most about was having a robot-Hook for the rest of the series. So, I'm glad that we got a tiny bit of the old Killian in regards to his love for Emma. But I think the way he's acting now is understandable. He's a hostage. I'm pretty sure if he said anything to anyone about Rumple's plans, he'd be dead instantly.

 

So, he's biding his time, quietly trying to figure something out. As long as he can stay alive, there's a glimmer of hope that he can be of some use to the good guys. I keep thinking back to when he hatted the fairies. We didn't actually see them go into the hat itself, right? Just a lot of lights flickering and a swirly things with one of the nuns. Maybe I'm being optimistic, but maybe he found a loophole?..Maybe?

 

And, oh yeah, Emma totally knows something's wrong with him. I think she had an idea at the end of the last episode. Let's hope she finds out next episode.

Edited December 1, 2014 by ABitOFluff

[El Seed]

I didn't even know Hans's brothers got frozen.  I thought only Hans had been.  Also, Hans had always been in the palace.  Ingrid had put him there after freezing him back in "Rocky Road."  I don't know about his brothers, though.

 

Wiki'd that episode and you're correct; I think my brain is trying to preserve my sanity by forgetting this crap. But if his brothers escaped, how would they know where to find Hans? And how did they have enough time to get to the palace, meet up with Hans (who would have "unfrozen" right around the time Anna and Kristoff did), and then bust in on Anna and Kristoff? Why am I trying to  make sense of this show?

 

When Robin said he would chain himself to a tree, well I really, really hope Ruby finds him and eats him.

 

 

I didn't know I wanted this until now.

[toodles]

As much as I like this show, I can't think about it too much.  It give me a headache.

[kennyab]

Yes, true love is the most powerful magic according to Rumple, so they shouldn't be affected at all, by any curse.  But that pronouncement from early on was apparently gibberish.

 

There seem to be certain curses that specifically take True Love's Kiss into account, such as the one used by King George to render Snow infertile. Curses that exploit love are presumably immune to TLK, otherwise what's the point of the curse?

 

I agree with the poster who mentioned above that Regina should have taken a sleeping potion, and either Henry or Robin could wake her up after the mess has passed. Heck, it may even protect her from being cursed. In that case, she and Henry could both take a potion. Then Emma could wake up Henry, who in turn could wake up Regina, and they'd have one of their strongest magicians available to help fight Ingrid. Evil Queen vs Unhinged Snow will be more fun, no doubt, and I'm really good at ignoring Fridge Logic, but team Swan needs a good strategist ASAP.

Edited December 1, 2014 by kennyab

[Souris]

He wasn't chained, though. I thought he's immune because heartless.

 

I have a question: did Anna remember she had urned Elsa?

 

She did. She told Kristoff she had to make sure Elsa knew she didn't mean it.

 

I actually took the blonde comment as a two-for-one verbal slap at Emma, since apparently not letting Regina kill someone is a betrayal.

 

It absolutely, totally was a slap at Emma. Because Regina gets to verbally abuse her and everyone at all times and it's A-OK.

 

Yes, please let Ruby eat Robin! Awesome idea!

 

They keep calling it the Spell of Shattered Sight, so maybe the writers are making it not-a-curse so it can't be broken with a TLK.

[Joanh23]

ok so I loved this episode - all the goodbyes were great - and don't even get me started on the Emma/Hook kiss, it was as emotional as i was hoping it would be - Morrison and O'Donoghue are excellent together.  I really cannot wait for Rumple's plans to fall apart - his arrogance is unbelievable and I'm guessing Belle will give him an ultimatum - her or his power and he'll chose power.

 

I'm uber excited to see how the rest of this arc plays out.

[Guest]

I wish Elsa would take off that dress and wear something normal. Her ballgown look ridiculous next to everyone else's 21st century garb.

 

Rumpel saying "Granny's diner" in a mean and menacing way made me chuckle. Also, Hook saying "you have my heart". That's just about everything good abot the Hook/Rumpel blackmail plotline. We'e seen those angsty looks before, Hook, and they're not working anymore.

Regina is finally being given good lines again! Her deadpan "coming from you that's just terrifying' to Snow was fantastically in character, as was the 'i should know not to trust blondes by now' (and the look she gave Emma when Snow said she was right!). 

 

and don't even get me started on the Emma/Hook kiss

 

 

This was ruined for me by the fact that Hook doesn't hae a heart and my headcannon insists that you cannot feel without a heart. I know last season says otherwise, but I can't get past it.

Edited December 1, 2014 by Trichromatic

[HeimrArnadalr]

I wondered why they couldn't have used the chain of the necklace for the fairy meth lab, leaving Elsa with the enchanted wishing star part for finding Anna in the cave-to-beach tunnel? Unless the shards of glass didn't land in the chain? Ergh, whatever.

I was thinking the same thing. Even if they needed the snowflake portion, they could have kept the chain and used another locator spell after the Shattered Sight was dealt with.

 

It's rather annoying when the writers set up a one-or-the-other choice and then don't bother to address an obvious third path that lets them have their cake and eat it too. Even a line about how the fairies need the entire necklace and chain to be certain of success would've sufficed.

[ImogenLeFay]

I had to laugh when Regina apologized to Henry abut not focussing enough on Operation Stupid Book Plot and instead screwing Robin Hood. As much as I disliked the Outlaw Queen crypt hook-up, I actually prefer Regina doing anything about her life insteadd of sitting around and whining about the book author. But seriously, did she maybe consider she should be sorry about not focussing on the Snow Queen? Seriously, it would have helped everybody if she'd stop sulking and tried to help with that huge threat for all of Storybrooke.

[FabulousTater]

But seriously, did she maybe consider she should be sorry about not focussing on the Snow Queen? Seriously, it would have helped everybody if she'd stop sulking and tried to help with that huge threat for all of Storybrooke.

Regina doesn't care about anyone except herself. She was only trying to find the Snow Queen back in 4x05 because she wanted to unfreeze Marion because it affected Regina herself. Otherwise, Regina doesn't give a crap. The whole town can burn and if she can remain untouched by it and stay safe in her crypt with Henry (and now Robin) she would do that. Everyone could be bleeding out of their eyes and Regina would be like "It's not my problem." And since I'm being blunt, I don't see how she's any better than Rumple except Rumple is actively trying to kill good magical people. That's the only point in Regina's favor nowadays -- that "Welp, she's not actively trying to kill any of us at the moment. Yay." Regina was only "helping" (and by "helping" I mean not actually contributing anything useful but instead standing around and offering snarky, unhelpful, mostly asshole commentary) in this episode because the Shattered Sight Spell directly affected her. Otherwise she'd be in her crypt counting hearts, boning Robin, or something equally appalling. (I really want nothing more than for Regina's crypt to suddenly collapse on top of her leaving her as dead as Graham.  *Squish!*)

Edited December 1, 2014 by FabulousTater

[bmoore4026]

All the stuff with Anna, Kristoff, and Hans just reinforced, for me at least, how dull the characters have become...or have been but I've refused to see it.

 

Anna has so much more spunk than Emma and her attitude makes the show lively, which has been lacking for quite awhile.  Plus, she has a pleasant face.  Huge plus.  (Not that Jennifer Morrison isn't pretty.  She is.  It's Emma and her perpetual bitch-face that's the problem.  I'm pretty sure Jennifer Morrison can do softer expressions.)

 

Kristoff isn't fawning over Emma; his heart belongs to Anna.  To have a male character that's not caught in the "'Chosen One's' natural charisma orbit" and falling head over heels in love with her is a breath of Goddamn fresh air.

 

Hans isn't overly-complicated as a villain - he wants the kingdom of Arendale at any cost (though I'm sure his big brothers will betray him and take it for themselves).  He isn't related to Snow White et al, he doesn't want curses, he doesn't want to turn every fantasy land upside down for a relative with zero personality.  What's more is that he's fallible (he's been beaten twice - in the movie and was frozen by the Snow Queen), in comparison to Rumple and Regina, who are wearing karma-proof vests.

 

I don't care if the Frozen characters are coming off as Mary Sues/Gary Stus. in comparison to all the characters on this show and their "complexity", Anna and Elsa and the rest are nice dinner mints after a dinner of mediocrity.

[RadioGirl27]

I liked this episode quite a bit, even if there were some pace problems, some scenes felt too long and some others too short. This should have been the two-parter, that way this problems would have been solved.

I never thought I would say this, but I'm going to miss the Frozen characters (even Hans, lol) when they leave.

The acting was great, especially Colin, he was amazing. His face after putting the Blue Fairy in the hat was incredible.

[FabulousTater]

To have a male character that's not caught in the "'Chosen One's' natural charisma orbit" and falling head over heels in love with her is a breath of Goddamn fresh air.

I think you must mean like Robin Hood chasing fairy tale Hitler all over Storybrooke because he thinks Hitler Regina's got a hot ass. Seriously, Robin sees being an evil mass murderer as "bold an audacious". Yep, Kristoff is definitely a breath of fresh air when compared to that.

Edited December 1, 2014 by FabulousTater

[Helena Dax]

Yeah, I'm being a bit facetious with the blindfolds suggestion, since we know nothing physical will stop it, because magic. Still, it would make a little sense to have someone suggest something simple like that, even if it were just dismissed right away.

 

They talked about hiding themselves in the caves or whatever and Regina said magic didn't work that way and the curse would get to them wherever they were. After that, talking about sunglasses or blindfolds is a moot point. I like the idea of putting everyone to sleep, though; it could have worked.

 

Loved the scene where Elsa and Anna found each other. The goodbyes were touching too. Well, they weren't exactly goodbyes; more like declarations of love.

 

Poor Hook, his plot is killing me. And just because he wanted to hug Emma with both hands... And because Rumple is VERY evil. He deserves to lose Bella. I hope the fairies and the others aren't dead because Hook couldn't forgive himself otherwise, even if he had no choice but to do what Rumple wanted.

 

I think Regina was more worried about hurting others than others hurting her. She still has her powers; she can use them to kill half town. The problem, as many of you have pointed, is that while she's able to lock herself down there, she's also able to free herself, so her hiding spot doesn't make any sense.

 

ETA Choosing to spend the rest of your inmortal life with Belle and Henry. Belle and Henry.  Sounds like hell to me.

Edited December 1, 2014 by Helena Dax

[2deadcows]

My impression has been that, until recently, only Ingrid knew that she was preparing to cast the Shattered Sight spell and that it would affect the town at-large.  Then Rumple figured it out after Belle's experience in the Snow Queen's ice cave.  Prior to that, as far as anyone knew Ingrid was only after Emma and Elsa.

 

Of the magical beings that could be of help in this situation...Rumple sat on the knowledge about Ingrid's existence, then her plans for the Spell of Shattered Sight -- that's when he wasn't out attempting to murder Emma and out-right murdering Mickey and the fairies.  He has not only not helped the townsfolk but is actively working against them.  Elsa has been too busy chasing after her ghost of a sister from another realm and sucking everyone into her quest rather than trying to develop her magic into something helpful to free the town from the ice barrier.  (And don't forget Emma's magical freakout that re-focused everyone's attention for a time - which wasn't her fault but which might have been dampened somewhat had Emma treated her magic more seriously, earlier).  I don't recall Blue being involved during this Frozen plot either.  But yet somehow fault for the lack of progress with ending Ingrid's (unknown) schemes lies with Regina because she spent time trying to save Marian?  What we have seen onscreen during Regina's "come to the good side" development is that when Regina is aware of or is asked to help others -- whether it be with Marian or Emma's magic lessons and magic freakout, developing a locator potion to find Emma, or fighting the Wicked Witch, twice, despite believing that she will die -- she does.  But then when Regina is allowed by the plot to contribute, the Mary Sue and Woegina comments dominate.   

 

As for being all het up about Regina's non-involvement in the Frozen storyline, blame asinine plot contrivance and plot holes instead of involving Regina in their stupid Frozen plot.  I thought one way to make the Marian contrivance relevant with FrozenTM was to have there be some overlap between the spell that Marian is under, Ingrid's ice wall, and Elsa's magic...that knowledge gained during Regina's research into cracking Marian's condition would somehow be helpful towards dealing with Ingrid's magic overall.  Then have Regina simultaneously collaborate with Elsa -- who shares ice magic and a bloodline with Ingrid which would both presumably be useful when joined with a knowledgeable witch like Regina -- to solve the mystery of Ingrid and Marian.  (Throwing in Emma's special True Love magic to round everything off to crack the code.)  But the writers were illogically determined to keep Regina isolated in the vault until the very end.

Edited December 2, 2014 by 2deadcows

[maryle]

The Frozen stuff grew on me, especially Elsa, Kristof and Hans I'm still on the fence about Anna.

Hook and Colin are fast becoming my fav. In fact Colin deserves some praise about his performance. He really sold all his scene.

Rumple should be a main villain for 4b too. Too much meat that can be explore. Rumbelle should go the dark romance road. They could explored Belle really have to realize what are the consequence to love the D.O .It will be more interesting that the usual  Rumbelle routine.

 

But Regina for me still is the loser character Wise. She seems to belong to another soap show.

They write her to appeal to the shipper but lost the creativity somewhere.

 

Emma is already suspicious about hearthless Hook, I'm beginning to hope for a real CS TLK or at least ILY for them. It's about bloody time !

[Camera One]

Why didn't Blue and the Fairies do their standby and put all the people in Storybrooke except Emma and Elsa to sleep until the Shattered Sight Curse is over?  Of course they probably can't because they have no fairy dust.  Convenient as usual.  You'd think Snow enacting the Curse would have enabled the Fairies to bring some of their equipment over, but nope.  Only Rumple and Regina are allowed to do their unlimited magic.  

 

 

Also, stupid but made me laugh:  before Boob Fairy got hatted she was pouring something into a sundae glass over what looked like a jalapeno pepper. 

 

I think they're called apothecary glass beakers.  I've seen them in science labs before.

[ShadowFacts]

 

I think they're called apothecary glass beakers.  I've seen them in science labs before.

 

Then it's even funnier to me that there were lab beakers at Granny's.  I know it's just me, but that scene just cracked me up.   Mother Superior looking all serious as hell working on the antidote or whatever, when she is never shown to give two hoots about what's going on when people are in dire straits. 

[Mari]

ETA Choosing to spend the rest of your inmortal life with Belle and Henry. Belle and Henry.  Sounds like hell to me.

 

 

I know. I wouldn't choose those two are my forever companions. Heck I'm picky about who I have dinner with let alone escape from town.

I think it depends on what you want from a forever companion.  If your criteria includes people who will blindly accept that you are a good person, no matter what you do or how you treat other people? Those are your companions.  Special bonus qualities:  Blaming other people when things don't go the way you want them to go and mindless cheerleading even really bad plans.

[Minneapple]

I love: Emma, Elsa, Anna and Kristoff. Oh, and Hans who is my new favorite villain. I am working on shipping him with Ingrid. Not sure about the ship name yet, but I plan to pester the writers on Twitter about it ASAP.

 

The DQ's plan to curse everyone is still weird to me. So what, everyone is cursed and then she lives happily ever after with Emma and Elsa? Not that, you know, I'd have much of a problem with that. But Emma and Elsa are nicer than I am, so they might have an issue with it.

 

And Rumple's plan also leaves much to be desired. Belle and Henry will merrily skip town with him while everyone else is cursed? Belle I can believe because Rumple will feed her some stupid lie about why they have to leave and she'll eat it up. But Henry will be okay with this? Okay then, Rumple. You go ahead with your plan, mkay? Let us all know how it works out.

 

The curse and the goodbyes were so boring. It might actually be entertaining if a few people were knocked off next week, just to freshen up the plot. About the only goodbye that I felt had any real significance was Emma and Hook's, because of his missing heart. And oh, all right, Snow handing Snowflake over to Emma kind of melted my heart a little. BUT ONLY A LITTLE, OKAY?

 

I will say that sometimes Ginny Goodwin can wow me, and the point when she went from Nice Snow to "Bitch, please," I sat up and was like, "OH YES I CAN'T WAIT." Even though it will only be temporary and there probably won't be any real consequences, I will enjoy Bitchy Snow while I can.

 

Goddamn, I hate Robin. I can't believe I hate someone more than Regina. Also, stupid much. Regina takes Henry because he'll be safer with her, then...leaves him alone? WTF?

[Camera One]

Mother Superior looking all serious as hell working on the antidote or whatever, when she is never shown to give two hoots about what's going on when people are in dire straits. 

 

Everyone likes to feel needed.

 

Then it's even funnier to me that there were lab beakers at Granny's.  I know it's just me, but that scene just cracked me up.

 

I think the Nuns brought their own supplies from the convent.  Now that sounds funny.

[KAOS Agent]

 

Choosing to spend the rest of your immortal life with Belle and Henry. Belle and Henry.  Sounds like hell to me.

 

I read the best comment in the TWOP archives about Henry and the undoing prophecy. It said that it completely makes sense that Henry will be Rumpel's undoing considering anyone spending a significant amount of time with him will be driven to suicide or murder.

 

Still, it's weird that Rumpel wants to take Henry with him considering the prophecy. Has Rumpel yet been undone? I don't think so. Why not leave him there to die? Also, what moron would voluntarily take guardianship over a pre-teen boy? Most especially Henry?

[jhlipton]

You know, why is Elsa's heart pure enough to use the Wishing Star when she had just tricked everybody with the empty pouch?  That was an understandable but semi-selfish move on her part.

I think Elsa still had a "pure" heart because it wasn't like she said "I'm going to find my sister, everyone else can die." She believed she could find Anna who could provide the cure for the townspeople. Anna had a purpose beyond just being Elsa's sister. She wanted to do both and they couldn't come up with a good reason why they wanted her to sacrifice her goal for their benefit beyond "we think it'll take too long."

As Jean said, she wanted to find Anna, not just for herself, but to make sure her sister was safe, and to save the whole town via hair-pulling.

 

 

When Hook and Rumple were standing in front of Granny's, with the hat in Hook's hand locked and loaded, did anyone else yell, "What are you waiting for, HAT HIM!!!"?

Rumple has almost assuredly given Hook a command that H can't harm R. 

 

 

If the writers can pull it off....

 

Thanks for the laugh of the thread!

 

Should I not ask how the bottle that was lying at the bottom of the ocean in the Enchanted Forest can float in Storybrooke because laws of physics would dictate otherwise? Maybe the oceans of the Enchanted Forest are saltless?

The bottle was right next to the Magic Trunk. I fanwanked that it got caught in the Pulling Current and was therefore sucked onto the beach.

[FabulousTater]

I read the best comment in the TWOP archives about Henry and the undoing prophecy. It said that it completely makes sense that Henry will be Rumpel's undoing considering anyone spending a significant amount of time with him will be driven to suicide or murder.

LOL. I would love the Snow Queen forever and ever if her Shattered Sight Spell drove Regina to kill Henry and then herself. That's a murder suicide I'd be up for watching. I don't think anyone understands how happy that would make me. So very, very, very happy.

Edited December 2, 2014 by FabulousTater

[stealinghome]

It's like the writers can't focus on both Emma-Henry and Regina-Henry scenes in the same season. It's other one or the other. It's odd.

I honestly think this season has been so Regina-Henry heavy because it's the only way Regina could interact with a fellow show regular. imo it's very clear Adam and Eddie were told Regina couldn't touch the Frozen stuff with a 30 foot pole (or at least not the way they wanted her to), so it was the only thing they could come up with to give her a storyline outside of Outlaw Queen and let her interact with someone who's a full-time cast member.

 

Man, thanks all who "warned" me about OQ scenes. The dialogue, it burns my ears!

Yeah, you know, this show generally has pretty unmemorable (at best) dialogue, but the Outlaw Queen stuff is ripped straight from a romance novel. It's noticeably worse that the rest of the show's dialogue.

[Rumsy4]

I rewatched the episode today, and the timeline of Elsa/Anna's parents getting the Wishing Star is still unclear. At the beach scene, Elsa tells Emma that she found the necklace with her parents' stuff in their trunk. Was this trunk recovered from the wreck of their parent's ship, or was it from before? Why would they have tried to buy the Wishing Star from Blackbeard in any previous journey? I hope this will be cleared up once the floating bottle is recovered!

[KAOS Agent]

This show generally has pretty unmemorable (at best) dialogue, but the Outlaw Queen stuff is ripped straight from a romance novel. It's noticeably worse that the rest of the show's dialogue.

 

Hey now, let's not insult romance novels. Outlaw Queen is just messed up. Even better dialogue couldn't save it.

 

Can anyone explain what was up with Regina's apology for being distracted from Operation Mongoose? As much as I detest what's going on with Robin and Regina, I would actually give her credit for trying to find happiness on her own rather than tracking down some Happy Ending God to demand her happy ending. What does finding the author have to do with the Shattered Sight Spell? Snow & Charming got their happy ending and then it was promptly taken away. Does Regina understand that even if she gets a happy ending, she'll have to work to keep it? And even then someone else like the Snow Queen might come along and mess it up regardless of what she does.

Edited December 2, 2014 by KAOS Agent

[The Cake is a Pie]

I love: Emma, Elsa, Anna and Kristoff. Oh, and Hans who is my new favorite villain. I am working on shipping him with Ingrid. Not sure about the ship name yet, but I plan to pester the writers on Twitter about it ASAP.

Hagrid?

[2deadcows]

Can anyone explain what was up with Regina's apology for being distracted from Operation Mongoose?

 

That was out of nowhere and not needed.  The best I can come up with is that Operation Mongoose offered an opportunity for Regina and Henry to rack up substantial bonding time by embarking on an adventure of their own.  But Regina was simultaneously immersed in finding a cure for Marian and also starting up with Robin Hood, so Operation Mongoose fell by the wayside for a bit?   Reaching even further, maybe if Regina had been successful in finding the author (and presumably her happy ending, assuming that's how it works but we all suspect that it's not), then the Spell of Shattered Sight might not affect Evil Queen-Regina so drastically and Regina wouldn't be as worried about going completely apeshit under the spell?  In that vein, finding the author might not have helped with the spell, but it might temper Regina's reaction to it?  But there's absolutely no basis to believe that's true.  I don't know; it's a line I was confused by immediately and tried to puzzle out for a minute, then decided to not dwell because it probably wasn't important anyway.  Maybe it was an attempt to add another layer of sentimentality to Regina and Henry's good-bye.

Edited December 2, 2014 by 2deadcows

[satrunrose]

 

 

I love: Emma, Elsa, Anna and Kristoff. Oh, and Hans who is my new favorite villain. I am working on shipping him with Ingrid. Not sure about the ship name yet, but I plan to pester the writers on Twitter about it ASAP.

 

Hagrid

 

 

I was going to suggest Bro Queen, but I think I like this better!

 

My read on the Operation Mongoose line was that it had more to do with regret over a missed bonding opportunity than a serious plan. I'm sure the writers will prove me wrong and O.M. will be a major thing in 4B but I haven't felt that Regina has taken it particularly seriously since very early in the season. She's still referring to it because Henry seems into it, and Regina wants a shared quest bonding thing like Operation Cobra, but I think the original plan was the rough equivalent of trying to fix a break up by going out and hooking up with the first guy you see (i.e. screw you I can get my happy ending elsewhere...(so to speak)) and now that Robin has proved himself an ass, a cheater and an accommodating booty call the whole thing has become a lot less important in Regina land. 

 

Plus, and I'm no Regina apologist, but if my options were tracking down a writer who could maybe give me a happy ending and being hit by a spell that would either make me hurt the ones I loved most or end with the town tearing me limb from limb because whatever mass insanity let them mostly forgive me for being a brutal tyrant  is about to be overturned... yeah, I'd go with the Mongoose. 

[dr pepper]

Personally, i think the use of Blackbeard is cheating. He's not a fairytale character, a folklore character, or even a victorian storybook character. He's a real historical thief and murderer, and his incorporation damages the suspension of disbelief.

[jhlipton]

Personally, i think the use of Blackbeard is cheating. He's not a fairytale character, a folklore character, or even a victorian storybook character. He's a real historical thief and murderer, and his incorporation damages the suspension of disbelief.

Plenty od other historical figures have seeped into fairy-tales, though. To a major extent, the "George Washington" I grew up learning about is a fairy tale, and very little like the actual man. Robin Hood may well have been an actual person (quite possibly a thief whose exploits were romanticized), just as the real Blackbeard has.

Per Wikipedia (with no dissent):

A shrewd and calculating leader, Teach spurned the use of force, relying instead on his fearsome image to elicit the response he desired from those he robbed. Contrary to the modern-day picture of the traditional tyrannical pirate, he commanded his vessels with the permission of their crews and there is no known account of his ever having harmed or murdered those he held captive.

I personally don't see this portrayal of Blackbeard as a problem.

[ImogenLeFay]

 

but if my options were tracking down a writer who could maybe give me a happy ending and being hit by a spell that would either make me hurt the ones I loved most or end with the town tearing me limb from limb because whatever mass insanity let them mostly forgive me for being a brutal tyrant  is about to be overturned... yeah, I'd go with the Mongoose.

 

I think that's a bit of a flawed comparison. It's like sitting in the real world, faced with a real threat and then going "I could either just wait for the horrible thing to happen, or I could try to go to the end of the rainbow and ask the friendly leprechaun there to solve things for me!"

 

Sure, in general doing something is better than waiting for something to happen. But the "doing something" part should maybe be something that's even a little bit realistic, and the whole "find the author" plan is just so ridiculous.

[YaddaYadda]

But Regina was simultaneously immersed in finding a cure for Marian and also starting up with Robin Hood, so Operation Mongoose fell by the wayside for a bit?

 

I actually thought she was off banging Robin before the curse hit.  Dolt followed her to the office where she was stashing Henry.  That was my read on the whole scene.

[Curio]

I finally got around to watching the entire episode without any sound/video glitches last night. (My ABC feed was all sorts of messed up Sunday night... and of course it would always cut out right at the good bits, like the flea infestation conversation between Hook and Rumple and Emma's goodbye to Killian.)

 

I don't have too much to add to the conversation, but just wanted to give props to the director Mario Van Peebles. There were some nice transition shots that kept the pace going between the scenes, which is saying something because the entire episode was literally all about the slowest moving curse ever. One transition that stood out to me was when Rumple told Hook he was a dead man by tomorrow, and Colin turns his head quickly to the side with the camera following. The next shot is immediately of Emma and everyone entering the police station. Small things like that can really help out a slow-moving script.

 

The only thing I thought could have been better directed was everyone's reactions to the glass shards falling. Like, why was Elsa the only one who closed her eyes?! And she's one of the only immune people! Isn't it a natural human reaction to close your eyes when floating particles are near your face?

 

Props to Curio, whose fake press release for this episode was at least 90% accurate.

Ha! You know, I was totally thinking during the episode that I couldn't believe something I wrote as complete satire would actually come true. I guess I should have known what show this was and "Hook hatting the magical Storybrooke nuns" shouldn't be abnormal. Only on this show, folks.

Edited December 2, 2014 by Curio

[Mitch]

Here's the thing.  At first I wondered if everyone would lose their memories of who they truly are once they get to the other side of the ice barrier, but then remembered they're living under Snow's curse now...so any forgetting is probably off of table.  But aren't folks still prevented from leaving town?  I thought there was more danger in leaving than just losing one's memory.  Or did I make that up?  At any rate, I'm assuming that there is some magical element to the ice, that it isn't JUST ice, that would prevent folks from crossing the town line and escaping the SS curse.

 

 

This show is so craptastic now with its flawed logic, and inconsistent magic rules. It wasnt the curse that kept people leaving town, the curse itself broke. Its the fact that these people don't belong in our world and that Rump a Dump brought back magic...so our world effectively contained both the magic and the people who dont't belong. If they cross the town line they loose their memories and become regular joes again.

 

So, with Snow's second curse HOW did she bring magic back to Storybrooke to the Land Without Magic. Have those two in charge ever explained that?

 

Anyway, I think it will be Regina saying she just wants to see Snow bleed AND to top it off she will magically give herself sword skills...(yes, too stupid but that is this show now.)

[HoodlumSheep]

When Blackbeard did his 'Fin-terference' gag, I wanted to give him a fist bump.

This. I want to keep him. He can just randomly pop up in people's story lines. Or actually get involved with the main plot. Either way, I hope we get to see more of him and his magnificent puns.

[Souris]

Personally, i think the use of Blackbeard is cheating. He's not a fairytale character, a folklore character, or even a victorian storybook character. He's a real historical thief and murderer, and his incorporation damages the suspension of disbelief.

 

This bugs the crap out of me, too. He's different from every other character to me for this reason. We know who he was, what his crimes were, and when and how he died. The wreck of his ship has been found. He pirated the waters of the Caribbean and Atlantic, not the waters of the Enchanted Forest. There's no "steeped in legend" aspect about a person who may or may not have existed; he EXISTED. It's like if the show brought on Abraham Lincoln or Napoleon. No, I do not like the inclusion of Blackbeard on the show at all.

[Mitch]

Oh, I forgot to add...as cute as Kristoff (the good guy from Frozen) is...I think it might be good that Anna didn't complete the marriage vows in the Crate O' Doom.I think she is in for a little heartache...."Uh, Anna, now that we are in this world, and in a state that has gay marriage...I have a little something to tell you...."

 

Forgot to add, my neighbor was over when the show was on, he never watches the show but he stopped and said, "Are they screaming for help at the bottom of the Ocean?"  And..I just said sheepishly .."Well this show is really stupid so...."

[Dani-Ellie]

Eh, I give them a pass on that. Calling out for help when one is trapped is kind of a natural thing to do, regardless of whether or not it's feasible for people to hear you.

[pezgirl7]

Forgot to add, my neighbor was over when the show was on, he never watches the show but he stopped and said, "Are they screaming for help at the bottom of the Ocean?"  And..I just said sheepishly .."Well this show is really stupid so...."

 

But this is a show that has mermaids, one of which saved Blackbeard, so I don't think it was that foolish to scream for help.

[KingOfHearts]

 

Eh, I give them a pass on that. Calling out for help when one is trapped is kind of a natural thing to do, regardless of whether or not it's feasible for people to hear you.

 

Well, in a world of mermaids and sea goddesses, anything can happen.

 

Edit: pezgirl7, you beat me!

Edited December 2, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[2deadcows]

Forgot to add, my neighbor was over when the show was on, he never watches the show but he stopped and said, "Are they screaming for help at the bottom of the Ocean?"  And..I just said sheepishly .."Well this show is really stupid so...."

 

It was stupid.  But Blackbeard told them that he was rescued by a mermaid (after Hook seemingly killed him by making Blackbeard walk the Jolly Roger's plank into a bevy of sharks);  maybe Anna thought she'd might try her luck by screaming for help?  

 

I actually thought she was off banging Robin before the curse hit.  Dolt followed her to the office where she was stashing Henry.  That was my read on the whole scene.

 

I'm not sure if this is snark, but that's not what I got from the scene.  Robin stupidly/naively thought he'd be safe in Regina's presence (and that she'd be safe in his...he's apparently been a bit of a gray hat based on his comments, so I'm sure he could at least hurt Regina verbally while under the SS spell), but I doubt anyone was banging anyone in Storybrooke while waiting for SS to hit.  My earlier comments were an attempt to address Regina's movements throughout Season 4, not just those scenes prior to the Regina/Henry conversation in the Mayor's office.  Sorry for any confusion!

 

ETA:   Oops, looks like the neighborhood Mermaid Watch is on it.

Edited December 2, 2014 by 2deadcows

[TigerLynx]

Are Hook and Emma ever going to get more than two seconds together in an episode?

 

Shut up Regina, you murdering psychopath, about Emma, Elsa, Snow, and anyone else.

 

Sven needs to find his way to Storybrooke.  Emma, Elsa, Sven and Hook can stay in Storybrooke.  Everyone else, I don't care.

 

I like the actor who plays Blackbeard so maybe he can come and stay in Storybrooke to.

[ParadoxLost]

This bugs the crap out of me, too. He's different from every other character to me for this reason. We know who he was, what his crimes were, and when and how he died. The wreck of his ship has been found. He pirated the waters of the Caribbean and Atlantic, not the waters of the Enchanted Forest. There's no "steeped in legend" aspect about a person who may or may not have existed; he EXISTED. It's like if the show brought on Abraham Lincoln or Napoleon. No, I do not like the inclusion of Blackbeard on the show at all.

 

Its different.  Peter Pan  is more modern than other tales and Blackbeard is part of the original works.  Once Upon a Time didn't cheat and bring him in.  Captain Hook is described as "boatswain to Blackbeard."

[HeimrArnadalr]

I was thinking (a dangerous pastime, I know) about the ice wall recently, and I'm not sure why they couldn't have built a framework over the wall without touching it (which seemed to be what set it off). Or Elsa could have built a staircase over it; she's done it before, both in Frozen and this show. Did none of this occur to them?

 

It could also be possible for someone like Regina to teleport to the other side. This might not work if the wall sits directly on top of the town line and it's not possible to teleport into the Land Without Magic, but I still find it unlikely that she wouldn't try (it's a better option than sealing yourself in a vault with a protection spell that you yourself can undo).

 

What happened to the tunnels that lead out of town? That was actually a plot point back when Belle nearly got her memory wiped by them, yet in this episode our heroes go into the mine and don't even mention them. Are we supposed to assume that they collapsed? 

[Dani-Ellie]

Did Emma get to say goodbye to Henry at all?

 

For like, four seconds at the beginning of the episode after Regina inexplicably decided Henry was safer with her than with the parent who is immune to the coming curse. Oh, and Regina hurried them along, too. Not that I'm bitter or anything.

[YaddaYadda]

Did Emma get to say goodbye to Henry at all?

 

For like 15 seconds at the ice wall. 

 

Also, regarding Elsa being selfish and the wishing star still working for her...Elsa is someone who acknowledges her errors and she said that she basically deserved being attacked for her actions of the day, much like she told David she didn't deserve thanks for saving Emma during whiteout because she was the one who endangered her in the first place.

 

Self-awareness is such a nice thing.

[SilverShadow]

I was thinking (a dangerous pastime, I know) about the ice wall recently, and I'm not sure why they couldn't have built a framework over the wall without touching it (which seemed to be what set it off). Or Elsa could have built a staircase over it; she's done it before, both in Frozen and this show. Did none of this occur to them?

 

HeimrArnadalr I just wanted to give you kudos for an exceptionally well placed Beauty and the Beast quote.

 

I've described this episode as a "place setting episode." I liked the Arrendelle stuff (okay mostly I was happy to have confirmation the Hansicle did get thawed and he wasn't really most sincerely dead and that Ariel got a shout-out) but it felt like 90% of the present day stuff could have been covered in a quick montage. I wonder if some material initially meant for this episode was pulled out and put in the extended two-parter because it felt very thin.