S29.E03: Actions vs. Accusations

[ProfCrash]

Except "New York gay man," is not a derogatory slur, while "hick," is. In fact "New York gay man," implies a certain level of sophisticated urbanity. Josh basically complimented himself while he called Keith something that means backward and dumb. People from the South get just as sick of others assuming they're stupid and bigoted, as gay people get hearing negative stereotypes about themselves. If Keith had said that he thought it was cool that a Southern gentleman was getting along with a (insert gay slur,) it would have been comparable. I thought Josh was patting himself on the back for getting along with Keith, while insulting him at the same time.

I am sure that there are parts of the country who would disagree that New York Gay man is in any way a positive. My point, though, is that Josh was discussing how the general expectation is that two people who fit a very specific stereotype are not expected to get along because they are seen as being so different and yet they were out there eating snails and enjoying each others company. We are interpreting the talking head differently and that is fine.

 

I don't give Natalie the benefit of the doubt, she has been on the Amazing Race twice. She is aware of the cameras and knows how she and her sister are seen. There are folks who love them and others who hate them and very little in between. The two of them have always been loud and have no filter and god knows that they are free with calling themselves "brownies" and other similar terms. I am not sure that they are aware of how people perceive their use of language, otherwise Nadia might have thought twice about refusing to Josh as one of the girls and assuming that because he was gay he would align himself with the minorities, which is how she was trying to sell an alliance. So, yeah, she knows better and yet she ran her mouth in a bad way and attacked Rocker for an article that she probably didn't read and assuming that he is the ass that Jeremy said that he was.

 

Keith is not the most sophisticated person on the planet. Anyone who is willing to blithely discuss corporal punishment in the manner that he did is someone who most likely thinks the rest of the country has gone crazy in the way that we discipline out kids and it leads to lazy people like Drew. I get that there are different takes on spanking kids but I have never fully understood the folks who say that they are willing to hit their children with such ease. Something about that strikes me as wrong, it should at least pain you to discuss physically causing your child pain even if you think that it is good for them.

[LizBug]

Interesting that, while John & Natalie were tossing insults back and forth, she moved further and further from him, ending up standing at the farthest point from him.  IMO, with her mouth and attitude, she won't last long after the merge (assuming she gets to the merge).

 

Baylor is showing a lot of gameplay in bringing people together to vote "John" instead of "Baylor."  She's not riding Josh's coattails.  Yes, Josh thinks he's running the show but he'd better watch out for that little girl.

 

Wish they'd show us whether or not Jeremy has found the idol on his team's beach.  And why the longer, more complicated clue to the idol(s) if John already had the one for his tribe?  Will there be another idol hidden in the same place now that John's taken his to the pre-Ponderosa hangout.

[cooksdelight]

I kinda loved how Julie kept referring to "my boyfriend John" amid her tears. Of course that was producer-directed

It is absolutely producer directed. They have started doing it on Amazing Race as well and I don't need it.

If Jeremy had found it, they'd have shown us, I think. The funny thing is.... he kept the clue, John went on memory, and John found it. They will hide another one on the yellow tribe's property, if not in the same place, they will have to change up the map and rehide the one on the blue team's property for it to be in a new spot. If memory serves, they did the same type of clues on the previous Exile Island, adding more information with each one.

[Bryce Lynch]

I was actually hoping John would lunge at Natalie and scare the crap out of her.  I hated her twin and I hate her even more.  Consumed with loathing is probably a better way to put it.

 

I still can't stand Jeremy.  Sour grapes, party of one.  As soon as he realized that the million dollars was down to just him, he again exhibited the caged beast of aggression and rage.  He's gonna crack at some point, and it's gonna be nasty.

 

I like Josh. 

I agree that Natalie was way out of line.  While it sounded bad, I actually liked when Rocker said, something like "If you were a man, I'd hit you.".   I hated seeing Natalie claim to be a "bad ass" and insult, taunt and challenge a man, only because she knows he won't and can't do anything about it because she is a woman.  It would have been much more "bad ass" for her to challenge a physically powerful woman in that way, as the woman might actually do something about it.

 

I didn't like Rocker much, and didn't think he played all that well, but I was impressed with how he took the blindside both at TC (I think he said, "Well played") and in his exit interview. 

[Runningwild]

I feel bad for John. The people jumping all over him weren't even on his team. They were judging him by something that happened years ago. And they didn't even know about it. Someone told them he said some stuff years ago. And then they listen to Natalie and weaken their tribe the way she wanted? And she needs to shut it. Her behavior on TV has been far more disgusting than anything I've seen from John.

[Gummo]

I think Rocker was voted out because he was a time-bomb, too dumb and too temperamental to be trusted.  The fact that people hate him made him prime third-place-goat material, but just a few weeks in and he was already making side deals and keeping secrets from his alliance. He was the biggest guy there, but his team wasn't winning anything, and having to walk on eggshells around Bruce Banner ("Don't make me angry.  You won't like me when I'm angry.") had to be exhausting. 

 

And yes, people get voted out on this show for "who they are" all the time.  People can vote out their competition based on whatever criteria they please, and none of it's "wrong."  That's how the game is structured.  That's what makes it Survivor!

 

Both Keith and Josh made some verbal gaffes when talking about each other, but I think each in his own way was trying to be open-minded about the other.

 

Baylor is starting to impress with her game play.

 

I don't get the "this season is dull!" talk.  I'm enjoying the heck out of it.

 

One things bugs me, though:  Shouldn't it really be called "Blood vs. Blood and Water vs. Water"? 

[NutMeg]

Late to the party, but watched later and read all your interesting comments before posting.
 
Let me preface by stating that I had never heard of John Rocker before this season started, and do not watch baseball, or football, or whatever sport he used to play. I do watch other sports but do not follow what happens to the players (apart from injuries that may affect their game). I'm not even sure which tennis player is gay or not, for instance, and couldn't care less, I'm only interested in their serve, their backstrokes, their physical stamina, their mental stamina when in a disadvantageous position, etc.
 
So I started watching Survivor as I would any other strategic game, and with a blank state (except that I had seen the Twinnies on TAR and was rooting from them there).
 
Based on what I saw on my screen, I was disappointed at how Jeremy reacting at Val's ouster by sharing trash about John (oh Jeremy, if only you'd know how bad Val was at this game and how she was influential in her own elimination, by lying to John on a strategic aspect of the game when he was really trying to help her - in my world, in someone has two idols and I tell them to be sure to play one, I'm helping - I might even vote for that person to make sure it happens; as I see it, if it turns out there were no idols after all, well bummer for you, I did all I could with the parameters you gave me). But ever more awful was that, based on hearsay, Natalie took it upon herself to spew degrading comments at John and instruct the other team to vote him off. [once again, not knowing anything about the guy and not having researched his background or that of other contestants, the comments felt degrading to me as based on hearsay - these went beyond usual trash talk that I'm also not too fond of but I can understand  somehow, as it's usually more glib). 
 
Now, if I were yellow team, I would be suspicious as to why team blue was so intent on me voting out X, and trying to influence me with descriptions of what X is supposed to be. If I already knew this about X and was fine with him in my team, then why change now? If I didn't, then why vote out someone that the other team seems to want out so badly that they're willing to "instruct" me to vote for that person that I so far had no problem with? All the more reasons to keep X: either they fear him, or they dislike him so much that they'll vote him out at the first opportunity. In the latter case, good for me at the merge (provided I'm not on the chopping block today or soon), in the former he is such an asset that I actually might make the merge if we keep him. 
 
So whether as an asset, which he was (cf. the team using him as a human ladder, per his suggestion,  or him shooting hoops much better than Baylor this episode), or as a goat/umbrella, he was worst keeping around. (In addition, he seemed to be handy with fishing gear, which, based on comments for last week episode, is very rare) I feel the trigger was Josh and he puzzles me - the guy tells you he has the/an immunity idol and that's reason not to trust him!? and engineer his vote-off!? Of course he was not going to use it on you, not now, not at this stage of the game, but if you were as good a player as you wish you were, you'd have seized an opportunity there (see exhibit 1: Parvati vs. Amanda; exhibit 2: Parvati vs. Russell - you get the drift, Parvati you are not, my friend, though you're starting to have as much confessionals as Russell).
 
The other nitwit I'm annoyed with is Baylor - Josh lies to you repeatedly, and still your only game is to play with him? Yeah, yeah, I get it, you're trying other things, but they always come to nought. I could say you're the Sierra of this season, but even that would be a compliment that you haven't earned yet.

 

ETA: manicure that stays put = gelish manicure.  
 

Edited October 9, 2014 by NutMeg

[Runningwild]

It looked, to me, like he intentionally and unnecessarily shoved someone when he was crawling under to get his ball.

He is a baseball pitcher. His girlfriend got hit crawling under that thing, so he retaliated. In baseball, if one of your team gets beaned, you retaliate.

[fishcakes]

I am pretty sure it was "If you were a man....I'd knock your teeth out" And I don't remember the calling her a slut, but I could have missed that.

 

After he said the above he said, "You look like one." Or at least someone said that, I guess it's possible it wasn't John because they didn't show the face of the person saying it, but it sounded like John and honestly why would someone else say that.

 

And he said to Natalie after she started going off, "Blah blah (shut up basically I think), slut." At least that is what it sounded like to me, but it makes so little sense, so maybe I misheard.

 

I heard it the way you did. When they were still walking off the course and Natalie started yelling at him, he was making that "blah blah" gesture with his hand and then said, "back at you, slut." And I also heard "you look like one" after the "if you were a man" comment. This is really the first time I've ever enjoyed watching Natalie, but it's partly because every time the camera cut back to her, all I could see was

 

 

As someone noted upthread, it seems that a lot was edited out of the argument. At one point, Probst asks Julie why her tribe as a group has so much animosity towards John and then everyone starts chattering about "John's a poor sport," "John's a trash talker." So it clearly wasn't just Natalie vs. John, although I don't doubt that she was the primary mouth from their tribe. Similarly, Josh in a talking head said he was appalled by what John said during the fight and Baylor said that she was frightened by it -- they could have been reacting to "slut" and "you look like a man," but rude as those things are, I wouldn't call them horrifying or frightening. So I suspect that what we didn't see was much worse than what they showed us. I wish they'd put the whole thing up as a secret scene.

 

I'm really disliking Dale as well. I can't put my finger on exactly why, but there's something off about him. Didn't he and Kelley (his invisible daughter whose name I had to look up) say that there was a three-year period where they didn't speak to each other? I would say let's hear more about that, but I don't actually care about either one of them that much.

 

More superficially, Wes's head is shaped like an anvil.

Edited October 9, 2014 by fishcakes

[jumper sage]

Wow!  You all have covered the John/Natalie fight so well.  I also noticed that John said they should tear down the competition apparatus and fight.  To me that was the more horrible.

 

I now know the difference between Natalie and Nadyia.  I like Natalie better for she has slightly more awareness then her sister.

 

The John blindside was all kinds of awesome.  I like when a tribe knows to go for it IMMEDIATELY.  I loved when he left with the idol in his pocket. 

 

I can't believe John outed Val's husband and his own alliance like that.  Truth be told he did try to help Val but the doofus she is/was and the whole idols business was too much.

[cooksdelight]

More superficially, Wes's head is shaped like an anvil.

I almost choked on my Coke with that one! :)

[survivinmt]

Notice the two people that were willing to stir things up with the other team were Natalie and Jeremy - who didn't have their significant others to tell them to shut it. Also, I hate it when a team that hasn't yet gone to Tribal Council gives advice or even trash talks the other teams amongst themselves about what a bad job they are doing. I assume that being at TC is STRESSFUL for everyone who goes and everyone just feels lucky coming out the other side. For the blue team - who have yet to even seriously think about who they would vote out - to be superior about it is a joke IMO. The ridiculousness of Natalie telling the 2 girls to vote out John - I mean, does she understand numbers? I know the tribe did end up voting out John but wtf? And Jeremy misread how Val was voted out too. This is the big reason why I don't like one team to win all the Immunities - I'd rather have both teams feeling the sting of TC. Even if I really don't care who gets voted out on either tribe.

[blackwing]

More superficially, Wes's head is shaped like an anvil.

Yep.  I said before that I think Wes' face looks particularly squashed.  Almost like an anvil dropped on his head a la Wile E Coyote and squashed him.

 

Josh is getting a lot of airtime because a) Coyopa are losing consistently, and therefore the greater narrative and strategy concerns are on his tribe, and b) the rest of his tribe are barely doing anything, with the exception perhaps of Baylor. They are not a particularly bright or charismatic bunch, and Josh is the one that communicates best. Doesn't mean he wins - this isn't necessarily a winners edit. He's just the go-to speaker because he is playing with relative awareness, and is interesting, articulate and can communicate in soundbites. The rest (again, with the exception of Baylor) not so much.

I dunno, I would imagine that TPTB probably does hundreds of Talking Heads.  Each episode covers a three day period.  They mostly have nothing to do but sit around all day.  Surely each person would get at least 10 chances in 3 days to be interviewed.  In all those hundreds of Talking Heads, surely they could have found something that Dale or Jacqueline or Kelly or Reed said that was somewhat intelligent.  I don't buy at all that Josh is the only one saying intelligent things.  I think Josh is getting lots of THs because the editors are hell bent on shoving him down our throats.  TOO MUCH JOSH.

[JudyObscure]

Keith is not the most sophisticated person on the planet. Anyone who is willing to blithely discuss corporal punishment in the manner that he did is someone who most likely thinks the rest of the country has gone crazy in the way that we discipline out kids and it leads to lazy people like Drew. I get that there are different takes on spanking kids but I have never fully understood the folks who say that they are willing to hit their children with such ease. Something about that strikes me as wrong, it should at least pain you to discuss physically causing your child pain even if you think that it is good for them.

Plus they often add, "I was whipped all the time when I was little and look at me! Ummm-hmmm. So, yeah, I hate it that while I don't think Josh should of called Keith a hick, he's kind of acting like one.

[ghoulina]

3. Tribal Divisions - The Brains/Brawn/Beauty and the cultural/racial divisions of the past made it so much easier to track who was on which tribe early in the game. I have no idea who is on whose team right now, which makes the challenges meaningless to me. And the team names themselves are a problem. Is it the Crapola tribe vs. the Honeypoopoo tribe? Give me something I can remember here, producers!

 

LOL! This post really made me chuckle, and I wholeheartedly concur. I can remember MOST of the names by now, but not who is on what tribe. I definitely think it's a lack of interesting characters and just the general set-up. I really love the BBB season we had last year. It was fun right off the bat, and most players were memorable. 

 

I will laugh my ass off if after getting rid of their "strongest" player (who didn't win them anything, mind you) the orange tribe wins immunity next week. Based on the promo where they focused on the blue tribe I think it may happen.

 

Sheer strength really isn't the be all-end all in this game. It's not as if every challenge involves them hoisting monster truck tires over their heads. Yes, being physically fit is important, but there are more aspects to that than just strength - stamina, agility, balance, etc. Not to mention the host of mental aspects that come along with many of the challenges. So I've never been a huge fan of people lobbying to keep "a strong player" based solely on that alone. 

[Guest]

I actually give Probst credit for recognizing that Natalie may have been strategically 'outing' John to his tribe.  His tribe knew who he was but Jeff didn't know that, and if they hadn't, it would've been a good time to get John to comment about that.  

 

And Natalie's plan did work.  I didn't get the impression they were going after John before that.  

 

I got a little Rudy flashback from Keith's comments about Josh. 

[truthaboutluv]

In my opinion, Josh wasn't calling all Southerners a hick and inferring that because one is from the South, they are a hick. He was simply calling Keith specifically a hick. And I can understand if that bothers some but then I can't see how one can say that Keith himself wasn't just as offensive with his "not my kind of good 'ol boy" and let me be clear that there will be no spooning and no sleeping next to each other and apparently no gay people exist in Louisiana. Both said something dumb but I actually don't think Josh's comment was offensive because again I didn't think he was speaking about everyone from the South at all but referencing Keith specifically. Whereas in Keith's world view gay people don't exist at all in Louisiana. Okay then...

 

You misheard this. Keith said "Just not my good ol' boy." I think he meant while Josh was good company, he still wished his son could have been there instead.

 

 

YMMV but I can't buy that as Keith's meaning particularly because he didn't make any mention of Wes or give any indication he wished he was at Exile Island with him. And then he later followed up that comment by making sure it was known that absolutely no spooning would be happening between him and Josh and informing us that apparently no gay people existed where he is from. 

 

Baylor is showing a lot of gameplay in bringing people together to vote "John" instead of "Baylor."  She's not riding Josh's coattails.  Yes, Josh thinks he's running the show but he'd better watch out for that little girl.

 

 

Except she didn't engineer that. Based on what the editing showed, her trying to get Alec and Wes to vote with her and Jacqueline to get John out, basically fell on deaf ears and all she did was get frustrated and snap at them. And when she walked away they both basically were like "yeah she's trying to save her ass but whatever we're sticking to the plan." It was when Josh went to Wes first about John revealing he had the idol and then floated the idea of getting him out that things seemed to change.

 

And then Josh was the one who said they could do it with himself, Wes, Alec and the two women. And we see Baylor come into the water, Josh tells her what he's thinking and she jumps at it and in her talking head states that she's putting her trust in Josh again for things to go as planned. And when Wes brings up the new plan to Alec, he mentions Josh saying they should take John out. Baylor did not engineer that move - Josh did and of course it benefited her.

 

That said, I will agree she's not a complete idiot and so maybe down the line she'll notice that Josh so far is the one with all the power and try to engineer a move against him but honestly if that one scene between her and Alec and Wes is anything to go by, doesn't look like either have much use in entertaining her ideas. But this is Survivor and things can always change. 

Edited October 9, 2014 by truthaboutluv

[Constantinople]

Josh as clearly behind every vote off so far no doubt but something caught my eye tonight that may come back to bite him in the ass. Near the end of the episode we had a confessional from him that Baylor was supporting him 100%. Yet earlier in the episode not only did we have Baylor saying the exact opposite of that babout not trusting Josh but that she tried to get a 4 person alliance together between herself, Jaclyn, Wes and Alec. No Josh. Trusting Baylor is going to be his undoing, my opinion.

 

 

I saw that scene entirely different and think Keith is the one who came off looking bad. Yes, Josh stated that he and Keith were an unlikely pairing and you wouldn't think they would get along but then added that's what he loved about experiences like Survivor because it allows you to meet and interact with people he ordinarily wouldn't in his everyday life. Keith pretty much said the same thing about them being so different and an unlikely pairing, saying it was like night and day. And then he proceeded, right after Josh is going on about having a nice time and seems to be enjoying himself, to say that Josh is a "good 'ol boy -  just not his kind of good 'ol boy."

 

And then he makes certain to of course state that they would be sleeping on opposite ends and there would be absolutely no spooning because gosh, can't have anyone thinking that, what with the gay guy there with him. And then he apparently thought this was the most hilarious thing ever. I liked Keith and wouldn't say I actively dislike him now, but his comments made me uncomfortable and it was a pity because the scene started off really nice, when it seemed to show how well these two unlikely individuals were getting along.

Perhaps it's Marquesas all over again

Josh is John Carroll "Neleh and Paschal, I think, are really supporting my success in this game, and are really rooting for me."

Baylor is Neleh, except this time instead of having a relationship with another player that's like parent and daughter, this time she actually is another player's daughter.

Keith is Boston Rob "When I first saw John, I knew he was a big time queer. He seems rough and tough over here, but he does all the cookin', so I won't be sleepin' next to him. *grin* Not the first night, anyway."

[Tryangle]

And right out of today's headlines we have someone (I think it was Keith?) claiming he'd have "whooped" the lazy non-weaver were it his son "because we still spank/whoop in The South." Yes, we are aware of that thanks. Ya watch any football??

 

That was perhaps a bit unfortunate, what with the Adrian Peterson situation now playing out, although in fairness to Keith, there's a difference between a traditional spanking/'whoopin' and what Peterson's alleged to have done.

 

John is an ass, but I do question the decision to vote out the physically strongest guy and best athlete. He was being judged on his past. In this game, he never said anything that bad to his own tribe. I think they will regret it. He easily made his basketball shot, he helped the team in that first obstacle course, he caught fish. Seems like he was a key team player and provider.

 

I suspect a lot of it was the major alliance worrying that Rocker was playing multiple sides. Rocker pretty much admitted he had an alliance with Jeremy in place in front of everybody. That's a risk, as far as Josh and the others are concerned. Besides, they've already lost challenges *with* the athletic threat, so it's not as big a deal.

 

As for Natalie's outbursts - I think she took the revelations about Rocker's past to heart a bit more than the others (and possibly also, as a female person of colour within her tribe). From her TAR experience, she (and her sister) are vocal, don't hold back, shoot from the hip. Yes, it damages her gameplay, but it wasn't unexpected from where I was sitting.

 

At this point, Jeremy was thinking personally, and not with respect to gameplay at all. He was flat-out pissed, and probably frustrated too in that he aligned with someone he'd ordinarily want nothing to with, and for naught. He may be able to reel in his rage next time out once he sees that Rocker's gone.

 

The IC itself was semi-interesting although it was blatantly designed to encourage physical clashes. Why the orange team continued with that Josh/Baylor combo, I didn't understand. Must have been random drawing outside of the team's control.

Edited October 9, 2014 by Tryangle

[SHOgirl]

 

That felt goooooooooood. Really good. Granted, it probably would've been better with one Twinnie holding John down while the other beat him up, but I take what I can get.

 

Am I the only one who thought Natalie came out looking worse after the Immunity Challenge? I really don't think John would have been voted out if he wasn't know from before. Just based on what happened in the game, I've heard a lot worse things on Survivor that hasn't warranted the reaction John's been getting.

 

I found Natalie's behavior to be reprehensible. Two wrongs do not make a right.  And, despite the "if you were a man..." comment, I thought Rocker held up well to her relentless assault.  Also being a hot head, I certainly would not have held up as well as he did.  I would have been thrown out of the game. 

 

Also, I tend to view the game of Survivor in a vacuum.  I try not to let anything that has occurred in real life affect how I view the player and his/her game.  I did not see any behavior of John's within the vacuum of the game that would indicate that he is a racist or a homophobe.  People make sweeping generalizations and people say things, things that they wish could be forgotten.  Unfortunately, when you are a public figure, things are never forgotten, regardless of your current behavior.  

 

And, as a Southerner myself, I can state that a lot of us are still evolving when it comes to race/gender issues.  Thankfully, I had a very progressive mother, but a lot of folks, especially when young, just spew the crap that their parents taught them.  Then they grow and learn and change their beliefs.  Thanks Mom for not only being progressive but also teaching me the value of understanding and forgiveness.  

[willpwr]

He is a baseball pitcher. His girlfriend got hit crawling under that thing, so he retaliated. In baseball, if one of your team gets beaned, you retaliate.

I would agree with this except his own teammate accidentally hit his girlfriend.

 

The argument between John and Natalie looked highly edited, we don't really know what was said but it seems to have gone on a while and based on an article from last week, John had said some nasty things to Natalie after Nadiya was eliminated so was it personal? Yes, very much so, the same as Jeremy's agenda. I don't think anyone came off looking well in that argument. Josh didn't have a problem with John's sexist, racist or homophobic statements until he found out that John was supposed to look out for Val, that was John's biggest mistake and then admitting to having an idol after he was a main factor in trying to get Val to flush hers out in last week's episode. Jeremy came off as a hypocrite to me, he was fine with John's comments also until his wife gets voted out and then he gets all morally outraged and offended and brings things up because now he wants him gone.

 

So far I like the people I have seen the least of, which are: Kelley, Jon and maybe Reed. I am basing this off of seeing them in the background and usually reacting the way I would in that situation.

Edited October 9, 2014 by willpwr

[Runningwild]

It's still his girlfriend.

[willpwr]

I know but in that case he could have said something to his teammate, not get physically aggressive with the other team.

[leighdear]

 

Goodness knows I am no fan of Rocker and I care not a lick that he's gone but Natalie really was the one who came off very confrontational and volatile in that situation, especially considering they'd just won. And honestly, all I was thinking while she was going at him was that "there is no way she's winning this thing."  And we saw her go at Drew this episode as well - like everyone knows one of the basic rules of Survivor is to keep your mouth shut.

Thus making her the newest, bestest goat-in-waiting for a really smart player.  Let her keep spewing and take her right to the end, and sit beside her while she gets ZERO votes for the million.  I guarantee that somebody on that island had that idea.   

[Nashville]

Meanwhile, given how rabid the blue tribe was about John Rocker, it would seem a no-brainer to keep him until the merge.  With numbers down, and a pagonging possible, he would have made a great big doofus-shaped shield for that first, post-merge TC. 

 

Really, really, really, this.  THE OTHER TEAM is railing at you to evict a particular someone - and you DO it??? 

Heck, I'd be putting an armed security detail around his unpleasant ass - at least until merge.

Here I was laughing at Natalie, thinking, "Geez, girl - if you're wanting them to get rid of Rocker, that's exactly the wrong way to go about it."

Well, surprised = me.  What real strategic thought is going on in this game?

smh

 

[poppy-]

There really is nothing Natalie said that put her remotely in the category of John "New York subways are full of queers with AIDS" Rocker. Nothing.

Really, really, really, this. THE OTHER TEAM is railing at you to evict a particular someone - and you DO it???

Heck, I'd be putting an armed security detail around his unpleasant ass - at least until merge.

Here I was laughing at Natalie, thinking, "Geez, girl - if you're wanting them to get rid of Rocker, that's exactly the wrong way to go about it."

Well, surprised = me. What real strategic thought is going on in this game?

smh

I kind of thought the same thing, but, the most athletic person in the game is never a good choice for a goat.

[ratgirlagogo]

 

 

While the shouting match with Natalie after the IC may have contributed to John going home, I don't think that alone would have been enough.  Instead, I think the following factors were much more important:

1. That John openly admitted to making a deal with someone from the other tribe behind the backs of his own tribe and alliance, basically proving that he was not trustworthy.

2. That the two girls did a good job in tribal council of reassuring John that they still bought in to his fake plan to backdoor the older guy.

This I agree with.  Especially since it seems that Josh was the engineer of John's ouster and he straight up stated that he wanted to get rid of John because he thought he was "sketchy" and a "wild card" - thus not a good person to rely on in Survivor terms.  He didn't seem to do any pearl-clutching over John's fucked-up opinions and would have been willing to keep him  in the alliance if he thought he could count on him.  What cemented his decision seemed to be finding out that John had a HI - that he thought that the HI might make it hard to get rid of him later, so they better do it now.

 

ETA: 

 

I don't think the need to "keep numbers" to avoid a Pagonging at the merge really applies in a Blood vs. Water format.

 

Yes, all the strategies are different and you have to assume you might get(or get stuck with) the loved ones of your alliance members on your own team.

 

I'm not trying to defend John, but again, I don't think there should be any interaction between the tribes at challenges - especially where one tribe is actively lobbying for an opposing tribe member's ouster.  There will be time for that after the merge!

See above.  It's one of the annoying things about Blood vs. Water as a concept - that it encourages the players to not really work as a team but to actively work as though they were merged from the beginning.

Edited October 9, 2014 by ratgirlagogo

[FineWashables]

When people started talking about the controversy surrounding Rocker, they discussed how he'd shot off his mouth 15 years ago.  No one seemed to realize that it's still ongoing on his blog.  More importantly to this episode, no one seemed aware of the Bleacher Report article in April of 2014 in which Jeff Pearlman, the author of the original article from 1999, details how Rocker's behavior and comments now have gotten even worse.  When Julie said, Oh so they've read the article, this was no doubt what she was referring to.  I was amazed that none of the Survivors asked what article she meant.
 
So Julie knows about the article.  I wonder if she read it, because, and I quote:

 

As we walked down the sidewalk, his pen slipped from his hand to the ground. I picked it up and said, "Hey, you dropped this."

He stared at me for a moment. "Nah," he said. "I did that on purpose."

Um…

The day got weirder. We picked up John's girlfriend. When she exited the car, he called his other girlfriend. At one point, with Girlfriend I in the front passenger seat and me sitting in the back, John asked if I'd ever been to Disney World.

"Sure," I said.

"You know all those characters who walk around the park?" he said. "Mickey, Donald, Minnie?"

"Yeah," I said. "I do."

"Well, the people who dress up in the outfits are all f-----g f----ts, man. They're all f-----g f----ts."

Um…

Later on, as we drove from there to here and here to there, John filled me in on some of his social takes, referring to Randall Simon, his black teammate, as a "fat monkey" and making it clear he was no fan of the Big Apple ("Imagine having to take the [Number] 7 train to the ballpark, looking like you're [riding through] Beirut next to some kid with purple hair next to some queer with AIDS right next to some dude who just got out of jail for the fourth time right next to some 20-year-old mom with kids. It's depressing.")—even though he knew the city was my home.

 

[cooksdelight]

What real strategic thought is going on in this game?

They are starting to remind me of the Brains team. No logic. Get rid of an athletic guy, get rid of a girl who bugs, etc. As for John being a goat, I don't think anyone on that team saw him that way. Heck, they didn't see him as anything other than someone with an idol so we better vote for him. They did the same thing with Val. You're throwing a vote away if they decide to use one. Then the other person you want rid of is gone. So why not just vote for Baylor everybody? Trying to get rid of an idol doesn't always work, and the person usually ends up finding more. Tony did. Russell did.

[green]

It would have been smarter for John to have said "Hey, Val did herself no favors by telling everyone she had two idols. I told her to play one if she wanted to be safe, and she had none to play. She lied to all of us." Instead of what he said, which again I attribute to his unfamilarity with how the game is played. Jeremy might have not lashed out if he realized his wife had made such a dumb move.

 

If Rocker thought it was possible that both he and Val held THREE immunity idols after two tribal councils he should be booted for utter stupidity alone.  If he was (d'oh) stunt cast?  Well even a total idiot is such a case should have bought/rented some past seasons to view before going on the show.  Speaks to his arrogance that he didn't even bother.

 

(I wish if they stoop to stunt casting -- and we all know they always will -- at least stunt cast someone who has watched the show.  It isn't hard to find tons of these annoying Z-Listers that do).

Edited October 9, 2014 by green

[ratgirlagogo]

 

(I wish if they stoop to stunt casting -- and we all know they always will -- at least stunt cast someone who has watched the show.  It isn't hard to find tons of these annoying Z-Listers that do).

I wish they wouldn't stunt cast, but if they do I'm all for casting people who've never seen the show.  Their lack of knowledge about the show allows them to fuck up in entertaining ways.

 

("Imagine having to take the [Number] 7 train to the ballpark, looking like you're [riding through] Beirut next to some kid with purple hair next to some queer with AIDS right next to some dude who just got out of jail for the fourth time right next to some 20-year-old mom with kids. It's depressing.")

Hmm, I detest Rocker but that particular quote is from the original 1999 article, i.e.,not a quote from April 2014.

Edited October 9, 2014 by ratgirlagogo

[iMonrey]

It cracked me up when Jeremy told his tribe that John Rocker had made "homosexual comments." I know he meant "homophobic" but it made me picture John Rocker saying things like "Wow, that guy is hot!"

 

Look, anyone who has watched this show for the 29 seasons it's been on (and I've skipped several of them myself) is wise to the editing tricks they use. So it really amazes me that the producers think they're fooling anyone. Example: Probst asks if anyone wants to play a hidden immunity idol. Cut to: John Rocker, reaching down into his bag, seemingly; almost standing up, seemingly. Except: Not. Clearly these shots were taken when John first arrived at tribal council and sat down. Not foolin' anyone, show. 

 

Same goes for the "reaction" shots of John when Baylor and Jaclyn talk about a possible splinter among the men's alliance. We're meant to think John is alerted to the fact that they may vote him out! But - no. Of course not, because John thinks Baylor and Jaclyn are voting out Dale. He has no reason to look "surprised" by what they're saying. They just cut that reaction shot in from something else.

 

That's what I'm really tired of.

 

And it makes me question everything else they show us. Did Natalie just straight up, out of the blue, call out the opposing tribe after the Reward Challenge? Or did someone or something prompt her to do so? Same thing after Immunity Challenge. I'm so suspicious of the editing I'm convinced we missed something here. Yes, Natalie could very well just be a hothead, as anyone who's watched Amazing Race already knows, but still. The editing on this show is so deliberately misleading you can't trust anything about it.

 

Bottom line, I think John Rocker's infamy and past transgressions overall had far less to do with his being voted off than the editing would like us to believe, and it will be interesting to see if they try to portray some kind of vindication on the Blue Tribe next week as if they had a hand in it.

 

(And no, I still can't remember the tribe names. I really don't see the point. They're silly, and will be irrelevant after the merge.)

[blackwing]

When people started talking about the controversy surrounding Rocker, they discussed how he'd shot off his mouth 15 years ago.  No one seemed to realize that it's still ongoing on his blog.  More importantly to this episode, no one seemed aware of the Bleacher Report article in April of 2014 in which Jeff Pearlman, the author of the original article from 1999, details how Rocker's behavior and comments now have gotten even worse.  When Julie said, Oh so they've read the article, this was no doubt what she was referring to.  I was amazed that none of the Survivors asked what article she meant.

I'm trying to understand how any of what he said 15 years ago or what he is saying today in his blog is at all relevant to the game.  He was definitely an ass back then, he may or may not still be an ass today.  But I have a hard time understanding exactly why it seems so important that they "realize" what he is saying then or in his blog.  It is outside the context of the game.

 

Many of these contestants had absolutely no idea who he was.  Jeremy was perfectly fine working with John until he saw that Val was gone.  Then he blamed John for not protecting her.  John did keep his word and tried.  Then just because Jeremy's all pissed off, Jeremy goes and tells his tribe that John is a racist and homophobe.  Then the whole tribe goes "jiggawhhaaaaa?!  How dare he breathe the same air as us!"  Then Natalie screams and tells the other tribe to vote him out, simply because she thinks he is a disgusting human being.

 

In the context of the game, he didn't display any racist or homophobic behaviour.  He allied with Jeremy, a black man.  He tried to give advice to Val, a black woman.  He called Nadiya, a South Asian woman, a "sweet girl" when he voted her out.  He considered his closest ally on his tribe to be Josh, a gay man.  Is he actually in fact a racist and a homophobe?  He might very well be.  But if he is, he didn't let it affect his gameplay.

 

Earth to Natalie and all of those self-righteous contestants.  There have been plenty of contestants on Survivor.  I absolutely guarantee that some of these past contestants have been, in fact, racist and/or homophobic.  Did they get called out on this on national TV?  Did they get voted out for these beliefs of theirs?  No.  Because if they had these feelings, they didn't bring them into the game.

 

I'm no fan of Rocker, but I do think it is wrong that he got voted out almost entirely for something he said 15 years ago.  Now I guess you could say that this is what CBS gets for casting a famous person with baggage, but I would have preferred to have seen him get voted out because of strategy and gameplay on the part of the other contestants, as opposed to simply because "we don't like you".

[FlyingEgret]

Keith said "Just not my good ol' boy." I think he meant while Josh was good company, he still wished his son could have been there instead.

 

That's the way I heard that comment as well; but either way at least they weren't yelling/threatening each other

[Rachel RSL]

Plus, I'm not sure how much I buy how regretful he is for his past comments when he is still making gross comments. And he never did say he was sorry for anything so.

He's not sorry at all. He said something like: "I shouldn't have blabbed my mouth." So, basically, he doesn't regret anything he's said. He just regrets saying it out loud.  Douchecanoe.

[green]

I feel bad for John. The people jumping all over him weren't even on his team. They were judging him by something that happened years ago. And they didn't even know about it. Someone told them he said some stuff years ago. And then they listen to Natalie and weaken their tribe the way she wanted? And she needs to shut it. Her behavior on TV has been far more disgusting than anything I've seen from John.

 

Why?  Because she is a strong, assertive woman?  Because she got upset when she heard the truth about Rocker.  And it was the truth.  Why would the fireman lie about something like that that could be so easily verified later.

 

And it was a VERY big deal a few years back, not something anyone should never ever sweep under the carpet.  And it wasn't a "something" but a whole string of tirades that just climaxed in the Sports Illustrated article.  Dude was on the network news more than the recent train wreck of NFL wife/kid abusers.  Whole country was talking about him. 

 

It was no small thing and forgetting it would be an insult to the people he vented against.  Especially since Rocker has never apologized for it.  And he has a homophobe and racist pov that continues to this day on his blogs.  Why blame a strong, emotional woman instead of an angry, emotional bigot?  Why is it every time a woman gets into a shouting match with a man the woman is viewed as the "bad" person and was being "mouthy"?

 

And the "if you weren't a woman I would knock your teeth out" is a threat.  It's the phrase many a man uses before he does indeed strike a woman.  Not likely with camera and production there but still the hatred in his delivery was chilling..

 

Rocker was a former closer with the Braves.  He should know how to handle people yelling at him.  It happened all the time as a pro athlete.  Guy has serious anger and control issues.  Then he calms down he turns on the "charm" he thinks he has and "spins" stuff.  Doesn't fool me one bit.  Worst person cast on Survivor ever.

[candall]

OF COURSE voting off the strongest person on the team was a bad move.  This isn't Brains/Beauty/Brawn or men vs.women, where the physical challenges are dialed back to make things more equitable.  They ousted the guy who made himself a human ladder and boosted people up that obstacle wall like they were puppies.  Did they think they were improving their chances of winning the next challenge?  

 

That elimination, plus Miss Ingenuous alluding to the masterplan at TC, makes me think they won't exactly be a lock on cerebral challenges either. 

Edited October 9, 2014 by candall

[leighdear]

 

Why would the fireman lie about something like that that could be so easily verified later.

Because later for all of them means AFTER the votes have been cast and somebody gets a million dollars.  Nothing said on that island is "verified" during their stay.  He could lie about every single aspect of his life, and it wouldn't matter then and there.  

[ProfCrash]

I think pointing out that the strong women are being voted out is a perfectly valid game observation. It is fair game, 'Hey you are voting out the women" because it puts the other tribe on notice that you see what is happening and they are prepared to deal with it. Suggesting that maybe the other women try and do something to switch it up is not a bad idea, although it could be a foolish thought since there were only two women left. Big Brother this season had a series of women who honestly were playing to be the last woman in the house because they liked the men so much and were happy to be lead around by their noses and voted out. It was disgusting. So I don't have a problem with the obvious being pointed out to someone like Baylor who seems to need placards that let her know what is happening.

 

Natalie was out of line. Rocker is as ass, got it. Rocker had not done or said anything to her or anyone on her tribe that was racist or homophobic. It does not appear that Rocker had said anything to his team that was racist or homophobic. I don't know what was said during that entire exchange or at past meetings but I am reasonably certain that CBS would air Rocker making racist or homophobic statements. Rocker is a massive trash talker and probably a good one at that. He gets under peoples skin. Given the amount of time he played baseball, I am not surprised that he is a good trash talker or that he is uber competitive and says dumb stuff during competitions. I did not see anything that made Natalie's outburst make any sense.

 

Natalie was pissed off because her sister was voted out. Finding out her sister was voted out by a racist, homophobe was too much for her. She flipped out. I am guessing she assumed that Nadia and Val were voted out because of their color and she lost it. There is no indication that that was the case and there was no way for Natalie to know if it was or was not. But if Nadia and Val were voted out because of their race, then her anger should have been directed at the entire tribe and not just Rocker.

 

Natalie's approach is not one I appreciate in or outside of the game. It is not productive. It changes nothing and impresses no one and simply makes her look like a nut job. All she succeeded in doing is make me realize that Jeremy knows that he can use her whenever he wants, just tell her the right thing and let her go. She did not look strong or moral, she looked, to me, like an irrational person screaming vile crap at someone who has said vile stuff. It is not an approach that adds to the conversation or enhances the conversation, if anything, it distracts from the conversation.

 

I am glad Rocker is gone. I do think he is gone because he was playing too many sides. I do think that Josh changed his vote for that reason and because he could not really justify to himself playing with Rocker with all that Rocker symbolizes. I think there was some game play and some non-game play involved. I think it was a bad move because Rocker is a physical threat in challenges and losing that muscle could hurt him. It is possible that removing him eases some unspoken tension at the camp and allows them to win but I am not so sure about that.

[Guest]

I doubt John was voted out due to being a bigot.  They knew he was before Natalie pointed it out.  So people pitying him for losing Survivor due to being a douche can probably relax.

 

If I had him on my team, I'd want him out for being a terrible player who doesn't know the first thing about the game.  He openly admitted to his tribe that he made side deals with Jeremy on the other tribe.  That's almost asking to be voted out.  "Hey, I can't be trusted!"  

 

Usually the 'bundle of muscles' guys don't even do well on the challenges.  They spend all their time in the gym working on their 'mirror muscles' and none doing anything functional or to build stamina or balance.  I bet Natalie with her Crossfit background is more of a challenge monster.  

 

 

[lunastartron]

Why?  Because she is a strong, assertive woman?  Because she got upset when she heard the truth about Rocker.  And it was the truth.  Why would the fireman lie about something like that that could be so easily verified later.

 

And it was a VERY big deal a few years back, not something anyone should never ever sweep under the carpet.  And it wasn't a "something" but a whole string of tirades that just climaxed in the Sports Illustrated article.  Dude was on the network news more than the recent train wreck of NFL wife/kid abusers.  Whole country was talking about him. 

 

It was no small thing and forgetting it would be an insult to the people he vented against.  Especially since Rocker has never apologized for it.  And he has a homophobe and racist pov that continues to this day on his blogs.  Why blame a strong, emotional woman instead of an angry, emotional bigot?  Why is it every time a woman gets into a shouting match with a man the woman is viewed as the "bad" person and was being "mouthy"?

 

And the "if you weren't a woman I would knock your teeth out" is a threat.  It's the phrase many a man uses before he does indeed strike a woman.  Not likely with camera and production there but still the hatred in his delivery was chilling..

 

Rocker was a former closer with the Braves.  He should know how to handle people yelling at him.  It happened all the time as a pro athlete.  Guy has serious anger and control issues.  Then he calms down he turns on the "charm" he thinks he has and "spins" stuff.  Doesn't fool me one bit.  Worst person cast on Survivor ever.

 

John's lengthy history of proud ignorance is pretty much irrelevant to Natalie's eruption because literally neither she nor anyone there other than Jeremy knew what they were talking about. They had expressed no knowledge of the article, let alone John's more recent remarks, on the footage that was broadcast. Jeremy could barely articulate the content of the quotes in the Sports Illustrated piece ("homosexual" is not synonymous with homophobic). She did not know it was the truth because she was not educated to any degree whatsoever on the subject of her tirade. So, no, she wasn't being a "strong, assertive woman." She was exercising her jaws. Large swathes of the American demographic characterize equal opportunity, President Obama, and the concept of white privilege as racist; that doesn't automatically make them so. Natalie parroting some terminology that she gleaned from Jeremy is actually the antithesis of "strong," even if the semantics happened to be correct.

 

As a queer man of color, I think it would be awesome if any of the players had been familiar with Rocker and said, based upon substantive knowledge and information they had encountered firsthand, "I don't want to play with him. He has a pattern of indulging in xenophobic, racist, and otherwise problematic language, and if it's up to me, I'd prefer not to associate with that manner of person so I'm voting him out."

 

That didn't happen.

 

As for the "emotional" distinction: I think it's quite fair to ascribe that adjective to Natalie precisely because, again, she didn't know what she was talking about. Exploding to the point that you can't intelligently defend or promote your view is indeed emotional, imo. And I think histrionics/yelling invite that term more than John's comparably superficially quiet anger.

Edited October 9, 2014 by lunastartron

[GaT]

I actually give Probst credit for recognizing that Natalie may have been strategically 'outing' John to his tribe.  His tribe knew who he was but Jeff didn't know that, and if they hadn't, it would've been a good time to get John to comment about that.  

 

 

 

I found Natalie's behavior to be reprehensible. Two wrongs do not make a right.  And, despite the "if you were a man..." comment, I thought Rocker held up well to her relentless assault.  Also being a hot head, I certainly would not have held up as well as he did.  I would have been thrown out of the game. 

 

 

 

There really is nothing Natalie said that put her remotely in the category of John "New York subways are full of queers with AIDS" Rocker. Nothing.

 

 

 

 

I didn't have any idea who John Rocker was before this show, & I had no idea of things he may have said, & I'm not going to make comments on it without checking it out for myself. This brings me to Natalie. Obviously she was not in a position to check it out for herself, but if this was a plot on her part to out John, then I give her credit for a plan well played. If it wasn't (and I'm inclined to go with this), then she's a friggin' moron. Jeremy tells her that John is a bigot & a homophobe, & Natalie, who has never heard of John, just believes him. It never occurs to her that Jeremy could be lying (lying on Survivor? whoever heard of such a thing!) or at least stretching the truth because he wants John gone. Jeremy says John is a bad man, well then Natalie is going to tell people all about it! And John gets eliminated. I can't wait to see who Jeremy sics Natalie on next. "Hey Natalie, Drew said he doesn't like twins, he should be voted off" "Hey Natalie, I heard that Dale was mean to Nadiya, he should be voted out for that behavior" She's got a big mouth, too bad her brain doesn't match.

[Donny Ketchum]

Don't know what you are talking about.  They were/are not bigots.  And they were funny on TAR.  They got cast cause of their entertainment value.  Not for being full of hate toward their fellow man.  They don't write articles attacking various groups on web sites.  They seem like nice enough peeps to me.

I was referring to your statement about people getting rewarded with castings on reality shows after acting horribly.  Both Natalie and Nadiya ran the gamut for that in TAR21 and TAR24, no matter how much entertainment value they had.

 

Josh is getting a lot of airtime because a) Coyopa are losing consistently, and therefore the greater narrative and strategy concerns are on his tribe, and b) the rest of his tribe are barely doing anything, with the exception perhaps of Baylor. They are not a particularly bright or charismatic bunch, and Josh is the one that communicates best. Doesn't mean he wins - this isn't necessarily a winners edit. He's just the go-to speaker because he is playing with relative awareness, and is interesting, articulate and can communicate in soundbites. The rest (again, with the exception of Baylor) not so much.

I agree with this.  Last season, Spencer had most of the Brains' confessionals since he had the most animated personality of them all, and he didn't win, either.

[RedheadZombie]

Am I the only one who thought Natalie came out looking worse after the Immunity Challenge? I really don't think John would have been voted out if he wasn't know from before. Just based on what happened in the game, I've heard a lot worse things on Survivor that hasn't warranted the reaction John's been getting. 

 

Natalie proved that one twinnie can be just as loud and obnoxious as two twinnies.

 

It looked, to me, like he intentionally and unnecessarily shoved someone when he was crawling under to get his ball.

 

I went back and watched because I hate John Rocker, and I'm choking on the need to "defend" him.  It looks to me like he deliberately blocked a guy.  I don't believe he actually hit him - there was deliberate sound effect added to give us the impression that he hit the guy, but the guy didn't even budge.  If Rocker deliberately hit him, there would have been some damage.  I saw three incidences of blocking/hitting.  In my opinion, Rocker's was the least aggressive.

 

I'll never be one to defend John Rocker, but it seems to me that the challenge was set up to invite those sorts of run-ins.  It was designed to have the competing pairs intersecting with each other.  For that matter, it seemed to me that in her last time through the "twinnie" might've thrown a hip at the other team.

 

She threw her entire fat ass at Wes, then tried very hard to hit the guy following behind Wes.  I kind of snickered at that because she missed him and fell hard.  She's a very solid girl and she's aggressive - she can do just as much damage as a man by deliberately hitting people.

 

Oh no, I'm not suggesting she was taking a stand against bigotry.  More wondering if there was any strategy involved in it at all.  When she came about the information about John is sort of irrelevant in terms of strategy.  Swaying the opposing team to vote in your own team's favor is good game play.  Not so much when there is a lack of intent.  It doesn't seem like Natalie was yapping with any sort of strategy in mind.  It definitely seemed more like she thought she was taking a stand which was wildly inappropriate at the time based on the edit.  He hadn't said anything to her during the game and his major infraction at the time was poor sportsmanship by purposely knocking people down just because Julie was accidentally hit.    

 

I was a huge Braves fan in the 90s, and I thought John Rocker was an absolute disgrace to Atlanta, but there was a lot of ugly on last night's episode, and much of it wasn't from Rocker.  First of all, I don't think Julie was accidentally hit.  The guy (Alec?) looked up and saw Julie, then deliberately knocked hard into her.  Jeremy then taunted Rocker about his girlfriend being hurt, which was pretty low.

 

I liked Jeremy initially, but he can go take a hike now.  Rocker's racism and homophobia were tolerable to him - when it potentially benefited him.  He's butt hurt now because his wife is gone.  Has he actually met his wife?  As much as he put on that she was a helpless delicate flower, we knew she was a tough Boston cop.  She sabotaged her own game and he has to at least suspect that.

 

I would like to think that Natalie's rage was due to Rocker's racist comments, but after watching her on two seasons of TAR, I know that's simply her personality.  Interesting that she was enraged at Rocker's poor sportsmanship.  Not only did she hit Wes hard, she went for his partner.  And let's not forget, this is the girl who stole money from another team on TAR, then gave part of it to another team to mitigate her actions.  She plays dirty, then deflects her behavior onto others. 

 

I hate the reality show tactic of trying to incite violence to get someone thrown off the show.  BUT, Rocker's "if you were a man .... " comment is indefensible.

[poppy-]

I'd bet most people over 35 remember the Rocker controversy. I'm a white straight person who doesn't follow sports at all and I remember it.

I am just catching up on old seasons now that so many are available on Amazon Prime for free. I'm watching Cook Islands. Parvati and her friends, who are all in a minority and are about to be voted off, spend a lot of time yelling at the frontrunners "vote off that guy we hate! Then us after. Mostly him!" It reminds me of Natalie's yelling a little. Her sister's out, this big guy who acted super aggressive and douchy was probably responsible for it, and she hears he's a bigot on top of that. Emotions high, not enough food, yelling ensues. Made for an interesting TV moment.

[Bryce Lynch]

Why?  Because she is a strong, assertive woman?  Because she got upset when she heard the truth about Rocker.  And it was the truth.  Why would the fireman lie about something like that that could be so easily verified later.

 

And it was a VERY big deal a few years back, not something anyone should never ever sweep under the carpet.  And it wasn't a "something" but a whole string of tirades that just climaxed in the Sports Illustrated article.  Dude was on the network news more than the recent train wreck of NFL wife/kid abusers.  Whole country was talking about him. 

 

It was no small thing and forgetting it would be an insult to the people he vented against.  Especially since Rocker has never apologized for it.  And he has a homophobe and racist pov that continues to this day on his blogs.  Why blame a strong, emotional woman instead of an angry, emotional bigot?  Why is it every time a woman gets into a shouting match with a man the woman is viewed as the "bad" person and was being "mouthy"?

 

And the "if you weren't a woman I would knock your teeth out" is a threat.  It's the phrase many a man uses before he does indeed strike a woman.  Not likely with camera and production there but still the hatred in his delivery was chilling..

 

Rocker was a former closer with the Braves.  He should know how to handle people yelling at him.  It happened all the time as a pro athlete.  Guy has serious anger and control issues.  Then he calms down he turns on the "charm" he thinks he has and "spins" stuff.  Doesn't fool me one bit.  Worst person cast on Survivor ever.

Personally, I see being loud, obnoxious and unnecessarily contentious as a sign of weakness, rather than strength in both males and females. YMMV.

 

Both of the "Twinnies" strike me as the sort of people who claim to be and pretend to be a lot stronger than they are. A true "bad ass" doesn't go around saying she /he is a "bad ass".  Other people say it about him/her. 

 

I firmly believe that a man should NEVER strike a woman, and Rocker's comment that "if you were a man" expressed the same idea.  But on the other hand,  when women abuse that respect for their gender, buy using it to verbally (and in many cases physically) abuse men, in a way that a man would never do, unless he was prepared for a fist fight, it offends me.

 

As a Mets fan, I always hated John Rocker...almost as much as I hated "Larry" Jones.  :)  At the same time, I think his infamous comments were probably  about 60% him trying to be the "pro-wrestling heel" of baseball,  20% what many or most New Yorkers. of all races and backgrounds might think when they are on the subway, but would never say it, and about 20% him just being a jerk.   

 

Also, Nadiya and  Natalie frequently referred to the Beekman Boys who won their first season on TAR as "the evil gays".  Now, I don't think that had real hatred, but they both have sort of Michael Scott like politically incorrect sense of "humor" that they think is funny, but nobody else really gets.  If they are going to call others out on their politically incorrect comments, from 15 years ago, maybe they should check their own, much more recent comments. 

[cooksdelight]

I wish they wouldn't stunt cast, but if they do I'm all for casting people who've never seen the show. Their lack of knowledge about the show allows them to fuck up in entertaining ways.

That's why the early seasons were the best, to me. Season one will always be my favorite. It is a classic example of how to play this game. As the years have worn on, and people who were mini-celebrities were cast, it started to become not as interesting to me. I enjoy seeing people do dumb stuff (give away immunity and then get voted off, etc) and run their mouths to the point that they will quickly become a liability. If the orange team doesn't wake up to Natalie's tactics, they are all doomed.

I'm anxiously awaiting to see who she targets next.

[green]

When people started talking about the controversy surrounding Rocker, they discussed how he'd shot off his mouth 15 years ago.  No one seemed to realize that it's still ongoing on his blog.  More importantly to this episode, no one seemed aware of the Bleacher Report article in April of 2014 in which Jeff Pearlman, the author of the original article from 1999, details how Rocker's behavior and comments now have gotten even worse.  When Julie said, Oh so they've read the article, this was no doubt what she was referring to.  I was amazed that none of the Survivors asked what article she meant.

 

So Julie knows about the article.  I wonder if she read it, because, and I quote:

 

As we walked down the sidewalk, his pen slipped from his hand to the ground. I picked it up and said, "Hey, you dropped this."

He stared at me for a moment. "Nah," he said. "I did that on purpose."

Um…

The day got weirder. We picked up John's girlfriend. When she exited the car, he called his other girlfriend. At one point, with Girlfriend I in the front passenger seat and me sitting in the back, John asked if I'd ever been to Disney World.

"Sure," I said.

"You know all those characters who walk around the park?" he said. "Mickey, Donald, Minnie?"

"Yeah," I said. "I do."

"Well, the people who dress up in the outfits are all f-----g f----ts, man. They're all f-----g f----ts."

Um…

Later on, as we drove from there to here and here to there, John filled me in on some of his social takes, referring to Randall Simon, his black teammate, as a "fat monkey" and making it clear he was no fan of the Big Apple ("Imagine having to take the [Number] 7 train to the ballpark, looking like you're [riding through] Beirut next to some kid with purple hair next to some queer with AIDS right next to some dude who just got out of jail for the fourth time right next to some 20-year-old mom with kids. It's depressing.")—even though he knew the city was my home.

 

I bolded the current day Rocker comments from the one at the end which was from the old Sports Illustrated article.  Thanks for proving he hasn't changed his stripes one bit.  He only regrets he shot off his mouth which caused him to destroy his professional baseball career.  Not that he doesn't still believe this stuff in this day and age.

 

Also no wonder the woman with him on Survivor keeps going around referring to herself as "John's girlfriend" all the time.  I imagine she is thinking to herself, "Take that, other girlfriend!  I'm the real Girlfriend #1 cause he took me on Survivor to eat bugs with him; not to Disney World filled with all those Goofys and Mickeys he hates."

 

BTW loved the recap of this episode here on Previously TV.

Edited October 9, 2014 by green

[Alapaki]

Heck, they didn't see him as anything other than someone with an idol so we better vote for him. They did the same thing with Val. You're throwing a vote away if they decide to use one. Then the other person you want rid of is gone. So why not just vote for Baylor everybody? Trying to get rid of an idol doesn't always work, and the person usually ends up finding more. Tony did. Russell did.

 

 

I agree, and I think that in both instances Wes was the one driving the train on wanting to flush both Val's and John's HII's, completely without regard to whether Val and John were the strategically optimal elimination decisions.

 

As far as Josh and Keith on Exile Island, I was uncomfortable with the way both of them handled it.  I think they were both "othering" each other.  But I think a big part of the game, especially this season with the casting, is to stir up what Probst and Burnett see as demographic conflicts.  And when it comes to testimonials, I can never know how much is prompted (either overtly or subconsciously by the player's desire for camera-time) by Production.

[kassa]

One team heeding the advice of an opposing team may seem completely un-Survivor-y... and yet it’s an inevitable consequence of BvW.  The “other team” are their own loved ones.  Collectively the enemy... individually not.  It’s not the ___ tribe telling you you’re being picked off by the bad guy on your team, it’s your wife/son/sister, etc. who have a vested interest in your survival.  And your alliance member's wife/son/sister right alongside her.

 

I agree that Natalie was way out of line. 

 

Me too. 

 

While it sounded bad, I actually liked when Rocker said, something like "If you were a man, I'd hit you.".   I hated seeing Natalie claim to be a "bad ass" and insult, taunt and challenge a man, only because she knows he won't and can't do anything about it because she is a woman. 

 

 

Or, you know, he could use his words.   Against a woman OR a man.  She should have kept her mouth shut because it’s rude, sure, but not because poor menfolk have no defenses against wimminfolk because they’re not allowed to hit them.