S08.E04: Listen

[miles2go]

Can I just pretend Clara was consoling the Master?

It would make an interesting twist if it turned out to be that. :)

[TexasGal]

Clara said something in this episode along the lines of not wanting the TARDIS to tell her about her death. There was something like this in one of the earlier episodes this season too. Which makes me wonder if she's not going to be the mother of the Pink time traveling family but will die somehow.

[elle]

Can I just pretend Clara was consoling the Master?

I thought of that too as a "what if"?  But, do we really want Clara to be involved with the Master as well?

 

How do they explain that the "universal dream" was just the Doctor being stopped by Clara from seeing his future self?

[Starchild]

It really is too bad that we can never see Donna again, because I think Catherine Tate and Peter Capaldi would be hysterical together.

I can't think of a single incarnation of the Doctor that wouldn't be great with Donna as a companion. Hell, she'd be great with the Master. Donna was awesome! I wish she could come back.

 

But since every companion has to out-do the last, the next will probably be the Doctor himself from another timeline. Female of course. Because we can't have a male companion for the Doctor (without a female buffer).

 

Has there been a Doctor/male companion duo (with no women around) since Two/Jamie? That dynamic seems oddly underrepresented for a show that was essentially every British boy's fantasy.

[Lantern7]

Starchild . . . Four/Adric and Five/Turlough. And both were supposed to be boys (hard for me to think of Turlough as a schoolboy).

[ketose]

I can't think of a single incarnation of the Doctor that wouldn't be great with Donna as a companion. Hell, she'd be great with the Master. Donna was awesome! I wish she could come back.

 

But since every companion has to out-do the last, the next will probably be the Doctor himself from another timeline. Female of course. Because we can't have a male companion for the Doctor (without a female buffer).

 

Has there been a Doctor/male companion duo (with no women around) since Two/Jamie? That dynamic seems oddly underrepresented for a show that was essentially every British boy's fantasy.

The First Doctor had two companions and a granddaughter. Peter Davison was closest to that when he had up to three companions, one a male. The early doctors were older and I think they didn't want a young male companion because there might be some kind of alpha male contest involved. Ironically, the companions were female because women would supposedly be more willing to follow the Doctor. Now, the women are companions on their terms, except maybe for Martha.

 

Interestingly enough, Davison was told the Doctor could not touch the female companions in any way since he was 31 and looked almost as young as his companions. That was back when the BBC tried not to intimate sexual tension.

Starchild . . . Four/Adric and Five/Turlough. And both were supposed to be boys (hard for me to think of Turlough as a schoolboy).

I remember that school uniform Turlough had. It looked like he was auditioning for AC/DC.

[Dust Bunny]

Well, nuts. I really liked it, but I understand all your guys' points. I guess I hand-waved most of the timey-wimey bits.

For me, this was my favorite episode of 12 so far. I might have had something in my eye when the War Doctor showed up. Maybe because it brings up the connection of 10 and 11. I love "Day of the Doctor" so damn much. Clara had a major role as the voice of the companion at "The Moment", so I had no problem with the barn scene in this episode. I thought it was nice symmetry.

Seems to me that with each episode, Capaldi is feeling more comfortable in his incarnation. I think he's had the challenging position of trying to get the NuWho audience (such as me) used to an older Doctor after Tennant and Smith.

Also, I hope Danny gets a more active role, a la Mickey. Definitely something better than being tongue-tied in a restaurant.

[benteen]

It seems to me that one of the more important aspects of the Doctor is that there is an aura of mystery about him. In the past, we have been given the occasional glimpse into his early life, but no more than that -- just enough to intrigue us.  In this regard, I can draw some comparisons with the Doctor and Sherlock Holmes (I mean the Holmes of the canon, not modern interpretations).  Doyle was very careful not to tell us too much about Holmes's past; again, just enough to intrigue us.  

 

I would think it a big mistake to get into too much detail of the Doctor's childhood and pre-"Unearthly Child" past, and I'm hoping Moffatt will not take that route. I really hated that scene with Clara and the boy-who-would-become-the-Doctor, and I'm afraid there may be more material of a similar nature to come.   Let's hope it ain't so!

 

I've found it interesting for instance that despite having had children, we've never learned anything about who the Doctor's first wife was.

The First Doctor had two companions and a granddaughter. Peter Davison was closest to that when he had up to three companions, one a male. The early doctors were older and I think they didn't want a young male companion because there might be some kind of alpha male contest involved. Ironically, the companions were female because women would supposedly be more willing to follow the Doctor. Now, the women are companions on their terms, except maybe for Martha.

 

Interestingly enough, Davison was told the Doctor could not touch the female companions in any way since he was 31 and looked almost as young as his companions. That was back when the BBC tried not to intimate sexual tension.

I remember that school uniform Turlough had. It looked like he was auditioning for AC/DC.

 

I've heard that about the Davison years.  It's odd that they still clung to that asexual aspect of the Doctor even when they casted a much younger man in the role.  I know that when Carole Ann Ford returned as Susan for The Five Doctors, they didn't want her to refer to the Doctor as "Grandfather" because that would imply that the Doctor was a "sexual being."  Ford said she wouldn't appear if they didn't acknowledge the connection and she does refer to him as Grandfather in The Five Doctors.

[Mr. Simpatico]

Interestingly enough, Davison was told the Doctor could not touch the female companions in any way since he was 31 and looked almost as young as his companions. That was back when the BBC tried not to intimate sexual tension.

During one of the 50th Anniversary specials on the BBC (the one on the 5th Doctor) either Sara Sutton or Janet Fielding remarked that Adric and Turlough were part of the crew because the BBC didn't want viewers thinking that the young Doctor was travelling alone with two young female companions and getting up to "orgies" (it was said very tongue and cheek) but it was accurate as to the reason there were three companions during most of his run (which Davison said was one too many). Davison was told pretty clearly to be as asexual as possible. Turlogh/Five would have been the last male/male only Doctor companion set-up and we didn't even see that since Tegan left in one story and Peri was introduced in the very next one.

 

I actually think Capaldi's older Doctor is easily a great opportunity for another long-term male companion ala Jamie. Someone who is not there as a romantic foil for a female companion (as Danny Pink seems to be for Clara and as Rory originally was for Amy). I'm thinking since Capaldi seems closer to Hartnell's grouch than any other companion than someone like Steven Taylor (from the future) would fit the bill. Someone who would question the Doctor on his actions and a different set of morality (this also fits Turlough but they never went anywhere with that).

 

I've found it interesting for instance that despite having had children, we've never learned anything about who the Doctor's first wife was.

 

Despite digging in the past for everything else (including in this episode in his childhood on Gallifrey), NuWho doesn't even want to acknowledge even Susan's existence (outside of a picture on the wall on "Day of the Doctor"), let alone his prior family (which have from his own mouth as Hartnell and Troughton did exist).

 

This despite Susan being the first companion, the only person known to have blood ties to the Doctor, the one he said he would return to (and never did in 13 regenerations if you don't count Big Finish) and Carole Anne Ford still being around and working. Even the Moffat-written "Night of the Doctor" webisode with 8/McGann had him acknowledging by name all of his audio companions - save one - Susan. I've never quite understood why Davies and Moffat never wanted to return there or even mention her name vis-a-vis Gallifrey and the Time War. Perhaps acknowledging Susan (and thus her parents and thus the Doctor's previous wife) would take away from the "specialness" of Rose and River Song?

Edited September 15, 2014 by Mr. Simpatico

[wayne67]

 

 

See, now those things don't bother me, because the Doctor has always drifted aimlessly - that's how he's lived his entire life, by choice. He likes it that way. And as for River, Amy and Rory - that part of his life is over. This is normal characterisation for him - he forms very strong attachments with his companions while they are with him, but once his timeline moves out of synch with theirs, he puts them behind him and he moves on. He compartmentalises. He always misses them when they go, but he looks forward not back. And regeneration makes the emotional break complete. The 2nd Doctor described it beautifully to a companion called Victoria, in an attempt to comfort her when she was mourning her father. Victoria assumed that the Doctor wouldn't remember his own family, being over 400 years old and therefore ancient (how little she knew!). But the Doctor said: "Oh yes, I can when I want to. And that's the point, really. I have to really want to, to bring them back in front of my eyes. The rest of the time they sleep in my mind, and I forget. And so will you. Oh yes, you will. You'll find there's so much else to think about. So remember, our lives are different to anybody else's. That's the exciting thing. There's nobody in the universe can do what we're doing."

River, Rory and Amy are part of the Doctor's past now, just like Donna, Martha, Rose, Jack, Mickey, Ace, Mel, Peri, Turlough, Tegan, Nyssa, Adric, Romana, Leela, Harry, Sarah, Jo, Liz, Jamie, Zoe, Victoria, Ben, Polly, Dodo, Steven, Vicki, Ian, Barbara, Susan, and everyone else he's ever known and travelled with and loved. Once they've gone, he compartmentalises, locks the memory of them away to sleep in a little box in his mind while he moves forward with his life, exploring the universe. His prolonged periods of grief after losing companions in the modern show has been rather out of character, in fact. River has been dead ever since they first met, he always knew his time with her would be limited. He knows that Rory and Amy had a full and happy life together after leaving him. He grieved for them for a time. But he's since regenerated and moved on. Their memory now sleeps in a compartment in his mind.

 

 

I'd respectfully disagree with this assertion. This may have been true with Classic Who but NuWho has the Doctor complaining about lost companions for a while sometimes throughout the next companion.

For example through Rose's run he feels endlessly guilty about the Time War and there are traces of guilt through the rest of the series about his actions. Through Martha's run he constantly mentions Rose to Martha and how she would have done better. Even parts of Donna run is him feeling guilty about Rose and or Marth. He felt guilty about turning Martha into a soldier doctor and the torture inflicted on Martha's family. He spends unknown period of time mourning Amy/Rory and River maybe? before running into Clara and then he spends the next season obsessing about her earlier deaths. He was taunted by the visions produced by the Tardis when he was dying saying he felt guilty when the Tardis ran through his companions to console him . He saw River Song as a ghost somehow and said he could always see her though he apparently makes no effort to resolve that situation in any way.

 

He apparently couldn't let go of either Amy or Rory enough to let them live a normal life even though they had repeated attempts at saying goodbye because it'd be for the best and undermining that with each new reappearance of the couple until they were time locked which made no sense since he could go to the year after the time paradox theoretically. Then there's Clara he called during his past death so he wouldn't abandon his current regeneration somehow knowing the exact time she'd be having doubts and then returning to even though the Impossible Girl mystery is solved. The Doctor doesn't let go and move on. He hasn't for the last 4 years. 

 

If he really let go and moved on he would ditch Clara or show up at Clara's school with a new companion in tow. There doesn't appear to be any real reason for the Doctor to return to hang out with her especially since he could travel with Madame Vastra or another robot or anyone from time and space. Frankly it's the fact that he is apparently supposed to be drifting aimlessly and yet returns back to Clara instead of Jack Harkness or any of his other former companions that makes his motivations unclear.

 

As for this episode the payoff was weak. Nothing really relevant happened other than the Doctor may be losing his mind.

Edited September 15, 2014 by wayne67

[QuantumMechanic]

How did they end up on Gallifrey? Isn't it timelocked? Wouldn't that mean it's inaccessible in time? 

 

Given that the Doctor visited Gallifrey in "The Deadly Assassin", "Invasion of Time", etc., etc., it clearly is not inaccessible in time.

[tarotx]

I'm not surprised that a crying scared child doctor and the end of civilization is being presented.There is this sort of "This is the Doctor in his Master Utopia moment" feel to the parts of the season. Both of those images also reminded me of The master. I mentioned this comparison in the s8e1 thread. I don't know if that is where they are going but the imaginary has been strong imo. 

 

The Doctor's a bit Crazy and lost. This is all new to him in a way since it's been years since the ways of the Doctor was his life style. And he has the new Regeneration cycle and the worry that if you replace every part of yourself so much are you even the same person. 

 

Clara herself met the Doctor when she was a child. Even then she gave him advice that led to him finding her. He went off to a quiet place to have a good think and Adult Clara calls him while he's being all a lone with the Monks. And then the doctor went studying her on her timeline trying to find out why she's important. He was shown to interact with her mom and an even younger Clara. She's in his time line and He's in her time line. This has been their relationship from the beginning. I'm not sure why you are surprised. 

 

And as for as Clara just going there with Pink, I can easily believe that she believes that fate brings you to your one true one since her father believed that and he and her mom kept the Leaf. We'll see where it's headed. 

 

I liked this episode. I don't see how Clara is this super special character that you all are crying over. She's just a girl who's whole life has been influenced by fate. She's not perfect or special she just knows what has happened so she makes it happen by her choices.

 

Moffat does repeat his story structure a lot but this is a time traveling series so we can mess with our own history without even knowing we're doing it. A person can come and go in our lives and we might see them years later while they are the same age or younger that will influence what's already happened for you but is yet to come for them. 

Edited September 15, 2014 by tarotx

[benteen]

During one of the 50th Anniversary specials on the BBC (the one on the 5th Doctor) either Sara Sutton or Janet Fielding remarked that Adric and Turlough were part of the crew because the BBC didn't want viewers thinking that the young Doctor was travelling alone with two young female companions and getting up to "orgies" (it was said very tongue and cheek) but it was accurate as to the reason there were three companions during most of his run (which Davison said was one too many). Davison was told pretty clearly to be as asexual as possible. Turlogh/Five would have been the last male/male only Doctor companion set-up and we didn't even see that since Tegan left in one story and Peri was introduced in the very next one.

 

I actually think Capaldi's older Doctor is easily a great opportunity for another long-term male companion ala Jamie. Someone who is not there as a romantic foil for a female companion (as Danny Pink seems to be for Clara and as Rory originally was for Amy). I'm thinking since Capaldi seems closer to Hartnell's grouch than any other companion than someone like Steven Taylor (from the future) would fit the bill. Someone who would question the Doctor on his actions and a different set of morality (this also fits Turlough but they never went anywhere with that).

 

Despite digging in the past for everything else (including in this episode in his childhood on Gallifrey), NuWho doesn't even want to acknowledge even Susan's existence (outside of a picture on the wall on "Day of the Doctor"), let alone his prior family (which have from his own mouth as Hartnell and Troughton did exist).

 

This despite Susan being the first companion, the only person known to have blood ties to the Doctor, the one he said he would return to (and never did in 13 regenerations if you don't count Big Finish) and Carole Anne Ford still being around and working. Even the Moffat-written "Night of the Doctor" webisode with 8/McGann had him acknowledging by name all of his audio companions - save one - Susan. I've never quite understood why Davies and Moffat never wanted to return there or even mention her name vis-a-vis Gallifrey and the Time War. Perhaps acknowledging Susan (and thus her parents and thus the Doctor's previous wife) would take away from the "specialness" of Rose and River Song?

 

Both the 10th Doctor and the 11th Doctor have mentioned being a father and grandfather several times.  In The Rings of Akhaten, 11 tells Clara that he visited the planet long ago with his granddaughter and in The Name of the Doctor we see a newly created clip from an old Doctor Who with The First Doctor and Susan boarding the TARDIS for the first time.  They definitely haven't ignored the established history that the Doctor has had a family but they've never dwelled on it.  To my knowledge, Susan hasn't been acknowledged by name and it's interesting that in 50 years, we've never seen him return to her (Big Finish aside).  When the Doctor says his family is gone (I believe 9, 10, and 11 have all said this at one point) I've often wonder if that includes Susan.

 

Sorry to get somewhat off-topic.

Edited September 15, 2014 by benteen

[supposebly]

Given that the Doctor visited Gallifrey in "The Deadly Assassin", "Invasion of Time", etc., etc., it clearly is not inaccessible in time.

Well, I don't expect continuity for a time traveling series that long but I would expect it at least during one showrunner's time. Otherwise, the time war would have prevented those episodes too.

 

Overall, it all just doesn't seem to make any sense at the moment. I don't have a problem with the doctor, I have a problem with him seeming inconsistent. Maybe that's the point but right now, it's terribly frustrating. The fact that Moffat seems to be returning to previously often addressed themes is not helping and feels like he's run out of steam and ideas.

Edited September 15, 2014 by supposebly

[Llywela]

See, for me it has the opposite effect.  Being the Doctor's companion is something you're either all-in for or not at all.  I can't relate to somebody who has the opportunity to travel virtually anywhere in time and space and decides to balance that with her personal life as though being the companion were some kind of work study job she got so she could afford tuition at school.  Whenever she uses the Tardis to get to a date on time or whatever, it's like a record needle scratching.  I want to see Donna Noble agape with wonder.  If it's not engaging enough for Clara to even devote her full attention -- if picking the right cocktail dress is more important -- then why should I bother watching?

Yes, this. This is a woman who has supposedly always wanted to travel, yet having been given this opportunity beyond her wildest dream, she doesn't take it. Worse, she keeps the Doctor at the end of a bit of string, uses him when it suits her - this presentation turns something incredible into something mundane. It doesn't sit well.

I'm torn. On one hand, I'm really interested in Gallifrey. I'd love to know what kind of culture creates a being like The Doctor. On the other, seeing any character's childhood changes the way you perceive them and since in this case we're already dealing with new versions of everything, it seems like a bad idea.

If you want to see Gallifrey and Time Lord culture and how the Doctor feels about it, you just have to go back and watch The Deadly Assassin, The Invasion of Time - heck, The Five Doctors is also set on Gallifrey. So is the final episode of The War Games. We've already been shown plenty of detail of how Gallifrey works and how the Doctor feels about it. And it has always been a controversial move for the writer at the time - less is more.

 

Clara said something in this episode along the lines of not wanting the TARDIS to tell her about her death. There was something like this in one of the earlier episodes this season too. Which makes me wonder if she's not going to be the mother of the Pink time traveling family but will die somehow.

I hope not. I don't want Clara to die - I don't want more prolonged grief and the Doctor believing he's destroyed any more lives. NuWho has played that card too many times already. Sometimes, a companion simply moves on with their life and the Doctor accepts that. After the overblown nature of the last few departures, today's audience needs to be reminded of that.

I'd respectfully disagree with this assertion. This may have been true with Classic Who but NuWho has the Doctor complaining about lost companions for a while sometimes throughout the next companion.

Yes, and I've always considered that to be out of character. That's my point. It's been overdone. I know why they've done it, but it's been overdone.

 

If he really let go and moved on he would ditch Clara or show up at Clara's school with a new companion in tow. There doesn't appear to be any real reason for the Doctor to return to hang out with her especially since he could travel with Madame Vastra or another robot or anyone from time and space. Frankly it's the fact that he is apparently supposed to be drifting aimlessly and yet returns back to Clara instead of Jack Harkness or any of his other former companions that makes his motivations unclear.

Yes, that's what I keep saying. It doesn't bother me that he's going back to Clara rather than Jack, because Clara is the person he's currently 'imprinted on' for lack of a better word - she's the person he's synched up with currently, Jack is in the past. But what seems strange to me is that he's staying synched up with her (and Amy and Rory previously) despite going off for extended travels on his own. In the past, that would have broken the connection - he'd have moved on and found someone else. But Moffat's Who can't allow that to happen.

Edited September 15, 2014 by Llywela

[darkestboy]

An interesting episode. One of the most interesting ones the show has ever done really.

The stuff under the bed/silent passenger might be Moffat playing on his usual childhood fears/tropes but it worked pretty well within the context of the episode nonetheless.

Danny's backstory got a whole lot more interesting as well. I think I will like him and Clara as a couple but the date scenes were a bit awkward to watch at times.

A great one for Capaldi's Doctor though and Capaldi himself performance wise.

The last five minutes of this episode didn't bother me as such but I can see why they might have annoyed others though, 10/10.

[BizBuzz]

I thoroughly enjoyed this episode.  I don't know, but I think it makes a big difference watching it with my 14 year old daughter.  Seeing her reactions, watching it though her eyes, it's obvious that this is made mostly for the kids.  Things that I might think are unbelievable, in her eyes they are fantastic (pun intended).  Kids have a way of not over analyzing things I think.  They are not jaded yet with life.  ::giggle::

 

We both were significantly surprised with the young time lord thing, as well as the John Hurt appearance, it made us want to watch the 50th special again!

 

I think it's my fave so far this season.  But I think I said that with the Robin Hood one.

 

Oh well, I am enjoying PC and actually liking Clara this season (I was in LOVE with her outfit in Listen).  10/10 for me too!

[tv-talk]

As for this episode the payoff was weak. Nothing really relevant happened other than the Doctor may be losing his mind.

 

 

I've been wondering about this, if portraying the Doctor as relatively addled and incompetent is part of a bigger reveal for later in the season. I'm not sure I'll be able to stomach the scenes where Missy and Clara are patronizing Capaldi at the same time though, you know it's coming. They'll be debating something about him in front of him as if he's not there as they talk over his 'comic relief' protests.

 

At any rate, it will be interesting to see if this is just what the Doctor is now or if he's supposed to be not-quite-right at the moment and is intended to evolve out of it as series progresses.

[Dirtybubble]

As a proud member of the anti Clara campaign I was all for this episode until she had to weave her way into the doctor's childhood.  UGH, what is it with this chick?!  I've seen nothing that makes her stand above previous companions but the writers seem to insist on making her into this great soothsayer.  I'm all for Mr. Pink being the next companion and just dropping Clara and her bangs at the closest planet.

[BizBuzz]

As a proud member of the anti Clara campaign I was all for this episode until she had to weave her way into the doctor's childhood.  UGH, what is it with this chick?!  I've seen nothing that makes her stand above previous companions but the writers seem to insist on making her into this great soothsayer.  I'm all for Mr. Pink being the next companion and just dropping Clara and her bangs at the closest planet.

Maybe I am misunderstanding what happened in Listen, but the Tardis took her there.  Clara had nothing to do with it, except that they were here memories?

[ohjoy]

I think it might be the fact that she hooked herself back up to the "telepathic circuit" out whatever it was that she had her fingers in before when they ended up in Danny's timeline because she was thinking about him, and assumed they'd go back to Danny's timeline even though she was thinking about the Doctor. So yes, the TARDIS did fly there, but the only reason it flew anywhere was because she was trying to fly it.

And then she got out of the TARDIS, still assuming she was interacting with young Danny again, then got caught under the bed -- and then, after basically instigating the Doctor's nightmare about something under the bed, didn't just leave. Instead, she sat there, gave him a big speech while stroking his head as she slept, then when she finally got back in the TARDIS she ordered the (very much adult) Doctor to "do as you're told."

It's not much that they ended up in the Doctor's childhood, it's Clara's actions that led and kept them there. I'm not necessarily a Clara-hater (although I've never been a huge fan of the character), but it was frustrating to have this creepy, interesting, provoking episode devolve into more of "the Doctor has these thoughts/feelings and took this action LITERALLY because Clara told him to." Yes, I want the Doctor's companion to help be his moral barometer and encourage him to do good even when that doesn't seem to be an option. No, I don't want the Doctor's companion to literally be the one calling the shots.

Edited September 15, 2014 by RandomMe

[tarotx]

I'm thinking Going to the Pink time line and the Doctor's childhood has to do with the Doctor's quest. All involved that broken soldier. Clara was important but really we had to go to Pink's memory for the origin of the soldier and to see the future pink for Clara to get the Soldier and to see the doctor for the Origin of the night fear. The Soldier's purpose was for us to see that we were traveling the history of the doctor's quest. In reality we were on that Soldier's timeline tough it of course isn't alive. So The Doctor going on this quest is what created the memory in the first place. The same thing happened with the Master to a degree. That beat in his head was created by the future interacting with the past.

 

Imo Pink's mystery creature isn't important to the doctor-at least not yet. Rather that creature on the bed was real or not doesn't matter because the purpose of the time travel was about getting inside the Doctor's head both now and as a child. We can see he's similar now as to then. He's frightened of the unknown. And for 12, the unknown is himself. He's lived a long time, and had so many changes but now perhaps the last thing that was keeping him him has changed. He's in a new regeneration cycle. Like he asked in the first episode of 8(tough not about himself): If you take a broom, you replace the handle, and then later you replace the brush-is it the same broom?

 

This season has shown us there's legend and lore and nightmares but asking what's "true" and even when we know what does that mean in the larger picture? Especially when we are search for ourselves. 

Edited September 15, 2014 by tarotx

[LadyArcadia]

I did like Capaldi a lot in this though and found that I could understand everything he said for once :)

 

 

That's because he didn't say much.

 

The "Doctor Clara" comment from earlier is spot on. I said the same thing when we watched it.  I'm bummed because my husband is finally watching it this season....and this is what he's getting.  I keep having to tell him, "No! It's good. Really! This episode sucked. Well, last week did too, but.. it's not this bad usually. Really!"

 

And although I called the Doctor an asshole last episode, I'm kind of loving the Clara insults. She thinks she's so pretty and super speshul and he keeps knocking her down.  Keep doing that. I approve.

 

ETA: Oh and now Clara can drive the TARDIS because she has a telepathic connection?  Fuck no.

Edited September 15, 2014 by LadyArcadia

[ohjoy]

I'm thinking Going to the Pink time line and the Doctor's childhood has to do with the Doctor's quest. All involved that broken soldier. Clara was important but really we had to go to Pink's memory for the origin of the soldier and to see the future pink for Clara to get the Soldier and to see the doctor for the Origin of the night fear. The Soldier's purpose was for us to see that we were traveling the history of the doctor's quest. In reality we were on that Soldier's timeline tough it of course isn't alive. So The Doctor going on this quest is what created the memory in the first place. The same thing happened with the Master to a degree. That beat in his head was created in the future interacting with the past.

WHOA. You just simultaneously blew my mind and made me (almost) totally okay with the end of this episode. If it's the toy soldier with no gun that's the focal point, and it becomes representative of both Danny Pink and the Doctor, it can do that only via the TARDIS, and a personal counterpart to provide the meaning behind the gift. That person can't be Danny or the Doctor (since they're the ones being impacted for generations), so it HAS to be Clara.

That soldier as the focal point is much more subtle and thought-provoking and has a longer-lasting impact (at least on me). Tempted to delete my previous remarks - this idea is so much more on-target.

[MarquisDeCarabas]

The obvious difference between the characterization of the Doctor before and after nuWho is obviously the time war and the severe PTSD he undergoes.  On a certain level it breaks him.  

 

In his mind it is the single greatest failure of who he is.  I'm not that familiar with Classic Who but I'm fairly certain the self loathing aspect is only there post Time War. 

 

Now that he's aware he didn't do as much destruction as he did before, he might be able to forgive himself just a bit.  (I do think there's a part of him that will always have issues with the choice he made becoming the War Doctor) 

 

Hopefully there is less angst and perhaps why he's a little more ok with travelling alone

[jcin617]

Given that the Doctor visited Gallifrey in "The Deadly Assassin", "Invasion of Time", etc., etc., it clearly is not inaccessible in time.

I always assumed that a TARDIS's personal timeline was locked in synch with Gallifrey's; that is, it can't travel to Gallifrey's past or future from it's own current frame of reference.   Whenever he returned to Gallifrey, The Doctor always seemed to be arriving in Gallifrey's "present day" - extraordinary circumstances like "The Day of the Doctor" notwithstanding.  Which is why visiting The Doctor's childhood is problematic.  If the TARDIS can visit Gallifrey's past... well, it creates all kinds of problems with the story of the Time War.  

 

My question is - what was under the red blanket?  Just another kid?

[alias1]

I had no problem with the Tardis going back to Gallifrey and I certainly didn't see it as Clara meddling with anything on purpose.  But I don't want to see the Doctor's childhood.  The monster under the bed thing is ok as long as it's in the abstract and not what the Doctor is actually afraid of.  That's where I thought it came out of nowhere.  Moffat has explored similar themes before but not so explicitly as a fear of the Doctor.  I want the Doctor to remain somewhat of a mystery.  I want Gallifrey to remain somewhat of a mystery (although using the barn from DotD was clever).   In my opinion, Moffat did enough damage by demystifying River Song.  He doesn't know when to stop.  People have mentioned Susan and that the Doctor might have had a family.  I would prefer all of that to remain speculation.  I don't want Moffat to demystify the Doctor.

[miles2go]

That's because he didn't say much.

 

 

 

.

IIRC, Capaldi had several lengthy speeches (lengthy by TV standards, that is).  I thought his performance was quite good, actually; not his fault the episode was pretty iffy.

[LoneHaranguer]

 

But that is just me being annoyed that Jack has been all but forgotten by the show, but mostly it should still have been the same planet because shouldn't there only be one end of the universe?

First of all, the entire universe was rebuilt from scratch using Amy's memories. That's pretty big. But you could also have significant changes ripple forward from something that the Doctor, a companion, or Daleks have done. Apparently, human time travel has moved up from a few hundred years in the future (the pioneer from "Hide") to just a hundred in this episode. That sounds like a significant technological change. What if some future war goes differently and the original end-of-universe planet gets destroyed?

 

 

He isn't showing us Doctor Who through Clara's eyes. He's showing us The Amazing Adventures of the Perfect Schoolteacher and her Wacky Alien Sidekick.

By through Clara's eyes, he means as she might tell it, and most people will embellish their own part in a story while doing so.

 

 

I always assumed that a TARDIS's personal timeline was locked in synch with Gallifrey's; that is, it can't travel to Gallifrey's past or future from it's own current frame of reference.

I presumed that it involved technology on Gallifrey. If it was destroyed by the Daleks in the Time War, the Doctor's TARDIS would be able to go whenever it wanted.

[LadyArcadia]

IIRC, Capaldi had several lengthy speeches (lengthy by TV standards, that is).  I thought his performance was quite good, actually; not his fault the episode was pretty iffy.

 

What I mean was, this episode was the "Clara show." (again).  And I didn't even really dislike her at first, but I feel she's overshadowing the Doctor. We need a Clara-lite or Clara-free episode.

 

He isn't showing us Doctor Who through Clara's eyes. He's showing us The Amazing Adventures of the Perfect Schoolteacher and her Wacky Alien Sidekick.

 

 

This.

Edited September 15, 2014 by LadyArcadia

[ganesh]

It seems like these episodes are trying to do too much. I liked the universal dream. Why couldn't it just be that? It's a creepy concept and the type of scary stories that Doctor Who can do. Why do we have to roll it into the Doctor's past?

 

There's just too much of Clara on her own. I really didn't like the Doctor showing up to pick up Clara and she makes a fuss about it. Hey, then don't come with the Doctor and get on with your life. I'm also not really interested in seeing two people sit across from one another talking for 20 minutes out of the episode. Hey, look, they're awkward! Yawn.

[elle]

I don't think the producers have that much faith in Peter Capaldi, or are worried about his acceptance by the viewers, so they're not making him as central as The Doctor should be.

I got the opposite impression.   They were all "hey look who we got to play the Doctor, isn't he cool!" when the choice was announced.  It is seems to me they are playing with the thought that everyone will just love Capaldi that they can do anything with him, especially making him unlikeable.

[ketose]

I don't think the producers have that much faith in Peter Capaldi, or are worried about his acceptance by the viewers, so they're not making him as central as The Doctor should be.

That would really suck. I was on board with Capaldi from the newspaper clipping of him writing about how he loved Doctor Who at 15 years old. Even though Capaldi has kind of a menacing visage, Matt Smith was way too young in my opinion and had this death-like complexion.

[miles2go]

I don't think the producers have that much faith in Peter Capaldi, or are worried about his acceptance by the viewers, so they're not making him as central as The Doctor should be.

 

 

I got the opposite impression.   They were all "hey look who we got to play the Doctor, isn't he cool!" when the choice was announced.  It is seems to me they are playing with the thought that everyone will just love Capaldi that they can do anything with him, especially making him unlikeable.

I don't know  - - - I've been mulling over this myself.  Not sure what the demographics are for DW fandom, but I'm guessing it's mostly on the young side.  Maybe TPTB are afraid a young audience won't relate to the "old" Capaldi, so they're shifting emphasis to the young Clara.  And the less-than-loveable 12th Doctor would strike a chord with older viewers, who would be reminded of the William Hartnell years.  (Except the first Doctor did become quite likable after the first couple of episodes)

 

Just speculating.  Not sure what to think.

[supposebly]

Well, I only hope this is all leading somewhere. It feels like there might be several Chekov's guns in the air and at least some of them need to discharge eventually. Otherwise, it's just a mess that makes no sense to me.

[ohjoy]

MTE, miles2go. This coincides with Moffat's constant emphasis on DW as a children's/family show. They used Clara to represent acceptance of the new, older Doctor, and it seems to be continuing with that concept for the time being.

[Insomnia]

This despite Susan being the first companion, the only person known to have blood ties to the Doctor, the one he said he would return to (and never did in 13 regenerations if you don't count Big Finish) and Carole Anne Ford still being around and working. Even the Moffat-written "Night of the Doctor" webisode with 8/McGann had him acknowledging by name all of his audio companions - save one - Susan. I've never quite understood why Davies and Moffat never wanted to return there or even mention her name vis-a-vis Gallifrey and the Time War. Perhaps acknowledging Susan (and thus her parents and thus the Doctor's previous wife) would take away from the "specialness" of Rose and River Song?

 

And, as much as they try to avoid it, they then make a small mention of it; like when he puts the boy to sleep: "Once Upon a time." *finger to the head, zap* "The End." then turns to Clara and says "Dad powers." So he's acknowledging again that he was a father. Because if being a grandfather makes him sexual for having sex, you would think being a father would be more sexual. I mean no one wants to think of their parents having sex, but their grandparents?

[ganesh]

They used Clara to represent acceptance of the new, older Doctor, and it seems to be continuing with that concept for the time being.

 

There's nothing wrong with that, but it seems like the Doctor is more of a supporting character to Clara. I don't want her to be a damsel and the Doctor always have to rescue her, but he should be leading the adventures. 

[mac123x]

I've been wondering about the barn scene, Gallifreyan adults' conversation specifically.  They just didn't come across as parents dealing with their own child.  One of them said something about coming inside with the "other boys".  It felt like they were new to dealing with this young potential-Time Lord.  It could have been an orphanage, or a boarding school.  Maybe it was a preparatory school of some sort.

 

A weird possibility that jumped into my fever brain:  maybe the house was Lungbarrow, and Adolescent!Doctor was the Other, freshly out of the Loom.

[polyhymnia]

Yes, all of this.

 

I loved Martha, despite her Doctor crush (he was cute, he time-traveled and took her places; shit, I can't blame her. She got through it in the end.) and reading all of that just reminded me how badass she was. 

 

I also really hated how the spooky element was just dropped for the young Doctor nighttime cuddle. CLEARLY that thing in the red blanket wasn't a fellow child -- if it was, that was one effed up kid! I was totally into the episode until Clara got to the barn. It felt creepy and wonderful and that is exactly what I liked about Doctor Who in the first place; crazy stuff like the Weeping Angels. You can't tell me everything at the end of the world, all the freaky noises and the KNOCKING was just a figment of all three of their imaginations because they were 'scared'. Ugh. It was two different storylines that really didn't intersect.

 

I totally agree - the set up was great.  Creepy, tense, interesting and then it just fizzled plus no answer to the mystery (if there was a mystery).  I enjoyed all three characters this time, which was nice, but the story just didn't have anything in the last third.

[Mr. Simpatico]

A weird possibility that jumped into my fever brain:  maybe the house was Lungbarrow, and Adolescent!Doctor was the Other, freshly out of the Loom.

I agree. I have a theory that guys like Moffat, Gattis and Davies (with the latter two actually writing their own novels in the Virgin Adventures book line featuring the Seventh Doctor) who came of age as adult Whovians during the 7th Doctor actually believe in parts of the so-called "Cartmel Masterplan" where the Doctor is not just some rogue Time Lord who stole a Tardis and has been travelling time and space but a being on the level of Rassilon and Omega in terms of importance in Gallifrey/Time Lord society and thus why in NuWho the Doctor has become basically the most important/feared/lionized character in all the universe instead of just a time traveller. So I would not be surprised if we do see the exploration given to his background (though not all of it) start coming to the front. 

[tv-talk]

the Doctor has become basically the most important/feared/lionized character in all the universe instead of just a time traveller.

 

 

That's exactly my problem with Capaldi's Doctor so far (though it's the writing rather than him), compare 11 staring down combined forces of all his enemies in 'Pandorica' vs 12 unconscious in the TARDIS as a companion flies it into his past to fix his fear of the dark. It's not even the same character and I personally much prefer the Doctor who over course of 1200 years has earned this legendary status throughout the universe and generally behaves as such. It's not that I want the Doctor to be infallible nor for him to be a warlike Enforcer of some sort- doesnt have to be that much in your face every week. However, for me, it's just lame to see him in prolonged petty arguments with Robin Hood or driven crazy by a minor episode from his childhood.

 

Of course as has been pointed out here, who knows where the plot is exactly going and how various actions/behaviors of the characters will be explained. I'm just saying at some point Capaldi has to be THE DOCTOR and not the relatively addled person we've seen so far. 

[benteen]

Ugh...

 

http://www.cultbox.co.uk/news/headlines/doctor-who-writer-moffat-clara-is-the-main-character-in-series-8

 

[ohjoy]

From the article:

Moffat added: “Clara has her own Doctor now, and she becomes the main character – which of course the companion always should be, really…”

This just about killed my interest in the show. Which is a shame, since this is my first series to watch live. I mainlined all of NuWho so I would be ready for this series, and I was really excited to see Peter Capaldi be The Doctor. I don't tune into to this show for Clara, and as much as loved various previous companions, they aren't the reason the show is called Doctor Who.

Let me add: the concept of companion as main character is not necessarily problematic -- at least, it hasn't been as much of an issue when the focus was on the companion experiencing the Doctor's life, traveling with him in the TARDIS, etc. But more and more the companions are not living life with the Doctor -- they're choosing an everyday life and holding the Doctor at arm's length for just occasional trips instead of extended traveling. So it's become more of, rather than human aspiring to something fantastic beyond our realm, the alien who wishes he could be like us, or at the very least the alien with whom we're not really as enamored as we claim, because we're too busy being our own lives. It was cute at first, but it's worn so thin on me now that in the back of my mind I wonder, what's the point?

Edited September 17, 2014 by RandomMe

[catrox14]

Ugh...

 

http://www.cultbox.co.uk/news/headlines/doctor-who-writer-moffat-clara-is-the-main-character-in-series-8

Clara has been the main character since she was introduced . At least he's just admitting it now.

[tv-talk]

Well, that kinda dashes my hopes for this season.

 

Not that it matters since he's the guy in charge, but Moffat's characterization of the 12/Clara dynamic as reminiscent of 4/SJS is way offbase. Basically he's making excuses for the Companion he's written not being very well received and now he's doubling down on said character to an extent which may be ruinous for the show.

 

Hope I'm wrong I suppose! 

[ketose]

That's pretty offensive for Moffat to try comparing Clara to Sarah Jane Smith. Every companion (and actress playing her) has an adjustment period. Jenna Coleman had two of them. Plus, she's leaving anyway. People always hate the new doctor / companion and the quality of the stories is what brings the audience around. Instead, he trying to make people love her and the audience is begging off the new Doctor.

 

As far as Sarah Jane, Lis Sladen was working with Jon Pertwee at a point where he was pretty debilitated with back problems and wasn't as physical as earlier. Tom Baker was a younger and more engaged Doctor by comparison.

 

I think Martha may have been the last (only) companion who was just kind of a stray picked up by the Doctor. Even Donna was a kind of Doctor groupie when she officially became his companion.

[catrox14]

You know what bothers me more. Is that Moffat has been saying that there will never be a female Doctor for his own bullshit reasons. But here Clara is essentially the Doctor-lite.  So when fans revolt about her, he has a ready made excuse to say..."See fans will never accept a female Doctor". 

 

 If you tell us the next Doctor will be a woman great, just do that. Make her a Time Lord, give her a companion. We (some) can accept that with little issue. It's the bait and switch bullshit of this season that is bothersome to me, anyway.

[Mr. Simpatico]

You know what bothers me more. Is that Moffat has been saying that there will never be a female Doctor for his own bullshit reasons. But here Clara is essentially the Doctor-lite.  So when fans revolt about her, he has a ready made excuse to say..."See fans will never accept a female Doctor". 

 

 If you tell us the next Doctor will be a woman great, just do that. Make her a Time Lord, give her a companion. We (some) can accept that with little issue. It's the bait and switch bullshit of this season that is bothersome to me, anyway.

I actually wouldn't have minded seeing Jenna Coleman as "The Doctor". She can obviously do quirky, arrogant and eccentric. The show would suddenly make sense. But Moffat is just confirming what many people who saw this episode have said - that it is Clara and not the Doctor who now drives the show. And I don't think that works. Not for a full season (just think of "Trial of a Timelord" starring Peri or Mel).

Also did he just admit (in a round-about-way) the "Impossible Girl" storyline was a bust and he's basically starting over with her?

[ketose]

I actually wouldn't have minded seeing Jenna Coleman as "The Doctor". She can obviously do quirky, arrogant and eccentric. The show would suddenly make sense. But Moffat is just confirming what many people who saw this episode have said - that it is Clara and not the Doctor who now drives the show. And I don't think that works. Not for a full season (just think of "Trial of a Timelord" starring Peri or Mel).

Also did he just admit (in a round-about-way) the "Impossible Girl" storyline was a bust and he's basically starting over with her?

And really, Amy Pond's first storyline ended with The Big Bang. So Moffat wrote a new arc where Amy and Rory were River's parents and that whole mess. In some ways, I'd be a lot less annoyed with River if she were a female Doctor, which is what she was later in the series.