S08.E04: Listen

[miles2go]

After reading that article, I'm ready to go into mourning.  RIP Doctor Who.

[HauntedBathroom]

To be honest, all the Moff is doing is repeating what RTD said about sodding St Rose. New Who expects more from the companions then asking "What is it, Doctor?" and making tea.

[miles2go]

I have no problem with a larger role for the companions.  But "main character"?  No, just  . . . no.

[Llywela]

Oh blimey. Thanks for linking that article. I've disliked Moffat's showrunning style and vision for the show for a long time and this kind of cements it for me.

 

Someone on the last page commented on Moffat's connection with the NAs and the Cartmel Masterplan, and I think they were spot on. Moffat (and Davies) was a Doctor Who fan during the dark period when it was not cool to be a Doctor Who fan, and he came of age as a writer during that period in the late '80s when fans got their hands on the show for the first time and decided that the Doctor Who they'd loved so much as children wasn't enough any more, it had to be deeper, darker, more mysterious - the Doctor became a Machiavellian Merlin and the Cartmel Masterplan (which I hate) was born. It was born of that desire on the part of that particular group of fans to make Doctor Who more edgy, as it were - it certainly wasn't born out of the show and its history. And the New Adventures, of course, took it much further - and a lot of those writers now admit that they went too far, simply because they could, because there was no one to stop them. That's the generation of fan Steven Moffat comes from (which is a big part of the reason I don't get on with his writing). And that's why he writes the way he does - he's still overcompensating for loving a show that wasn't considered 'cool'.

 

And the thing is, I kind of agree that the companion is the main character, but I disagree enormously with how he's translating that theory on-screen. Throughout the history of the show, the Doctor has been a mystery wrapped up in an enigma wrapped up in a puzzle. He's unknowable. So alongside him was a companion (or two or three), an ordinary person in extraordinary circumstances, someone the audience could relate to and empathise with as they struggled to cope with incredible adventures and struggled to understand their mysterious friend. That's what the companion as the main character means - and that's the formula Russell Davies used so successfully when he brought the show back. So I don't understand why Moffat seems to feel that making the companion the main character means turning them into the Doctor, making them the one who can do everything, while reducing the Doctor himself to an idiot who needs his magical companion to fix him, while attempting to plumb the depths of the unknowable to make him fully known. That is not what this programme needs - it's wrong. And it's a huge mess to hand over to his eventual successor - always supposing he has one.

 

I also think he's fallen for the old Hollywood mistake of believing that 'strong female character' means a woman who can do everything and makes no mistakes. It doesn't, because that isn't realistic - in fact, that's the opposite of a truly strong character. A 'strong character' is one with depth. One with nuance and layers, a character who is a person, flawed and believable. There is nothing believable about Clara.

 

I really don't like him comparing Clara to Sarah - I've felt from the start of Clara's run that he was hoping to create another Sarah, but the thing is, he's shaped his character as an ideal of perfection instead of recognising that the qualities that actually made Sarah so popular included 'weaker' traits such as vulnerability, a quality Clara does not possess at all - a character has to have actual weaknesses as well as strengths, that's what makes them believable as people.

Edited September 17, 2014 by Llywela

[catrox14]

To be honest, all the Moff is doing is repeating what RTD said about sodding St Rose. New Who expects more from the companions then asking "What is it, Doctor?" and making tea.

I don't think RTD said companions were the main characters. He said they were the viewpoint characters, which is fine because the doctor was still the main character. The companions were still companions

Edited September 17, 2014 by catrox14

[Llywela]

To be honest, all the Moff is doing is repeating what RTD said about sodding St Rose. New Who expects more from the companions then asking "What is it, Doctor?" and making tea.

Do you really believe that's all the companions did before the modern era? Because you are wrong. The Doctor was always the genius hero who saved the day, that's his schtick, but the companions always played a full and active role, using whatever skills and abilities they had. They saved his life so many times - without them, there'd be no Doctor for Clara to shout at today.

[tv-talk]

New Who expects more from the companions then asking "What is it, Doctor?" and making tea.

 

 

That's way offbase. Romana for instance was a Time Lord herself (or at least a graduate of the academy) and very often had knowledge the Doctor didnt possess- even about the Tardis. However she wasnt written as the Savior of All Time and Space and The Universe the way Clara and to an extent Amy were written. There have been plenty of Companions who were strong in their own right before NuWho and the dynamic was great.

 

edit- I will also add that Romana was gorgeous and certainly fulfilled the 'eye candy' role that Clara does so well. So really it's all been there before, the difference is just the extent to which the story centers around the Companion's doings rather than the Doctor.

Edited September 17, 2014 by tv-talk

[tarotx]

I just don't see how the show is focusing more on the Companion with Clara compared to other new who companions. The only difference right now is the Doctor is not sure of himself. He's the mystery this year. Clara last season was kind of not a main character but Amy, Donna and Rose sure were main characters. I get that her time with Pink seems not Doctor related and I guess I can see why that would be bothersome but I think they are going to be linking the Doctor to Pink. I mean so far they both are depressed with PTSD symptoms and questioning themselves. Clara is a bridge. She's the only one not a mystery this season.  I'm kind of looking at this season as a serial. Everything is linking to the season arc. Whatever happens with the season arch may affect my views of the episodes on reflection but I have my theories and so far I've enjoyed it.

 

As for as Moffat, he hasn't changed since his first episodes of Doctor who. Eventually he'll be gone and you all can pretend his years never happened. Either move on to a potential new show runner or Fan wonk that the show ended as Tennant Regenerated. Sometimes shows grow to disappoint you. Believe me I've been there.

[ganesh]

I certainly don't mind having the companions do stuff. They should. Part of the show is that traveling with the Doctor really inspires you to become better than you are. I think Rory is a great recent example. You can tell the story from the companion pov while having the Doctor being the main character. I think they're losing that focus. 

 

I didn't have a problem with Jackie becoming involved all the way to having an episode about the Ponds home life. I'm just finding half an episode about Clara on a date not particularly interesting. I don't find the awkward "say something zomg that's not what I meant!" to be interesting. 

 

On paper these episodes are good, but it just seems like they are doing too much and mess up the whole thing. Take out Clara visiting the boy doctor and just make the episode about the universal dream and it's a classic Who story.

 

I said before, not everything has to be A Thing. I think they're going overboard on having All This Add Up. Just having a seasonal plot of the Doctor coming back to his Doctor-ness is totally fine. At the time of the regen, Eleven thought he was really going to die for good. Coming back from that is interesting. Having Clara, who knew Eleven, around during this process is also interesting. Why isn't that enough for a show?

 

Either move on to a potential new show runner or Fan wonk that the show ended as Tennant Regenerated.

 

This is very condescending and inappropriate. People are allowed to not like a show that they like and can express themselves however they choose. This is a place to do that. If fact, I would say that people who are critical of shows they like are better fans. 

[tarotx]

Being honest is always the best policy when dealing with anything rather that is a positive or negative feeling. Sorry sometime I just don't get why people stay with things that they aren't enjoying. Re reading that section it does seem mean. I didn't mean as not to post your frustrations. I would have imploded if I didn't have a place to vent during the last years of Buffy and during a couple of seasons of SYTYCD. I just meant, that if you aren't a fan of Moffat then why want to waste your time? Just have the show close with Tennant leaving (which I meant as an if the show isn't renewed after Moffat) or to wait for a new show runner. Moffat's who has been the same since he had Jack and 9 man upping over a gun and a Banana. The Doctor did seem to come out better in that episode (which is one of my all time favorite stories) but Moffat has been the same from the beginning. Though Listen was a play on that sameness which worked for some of us but not for others. 

 

Not liking this season and not liking this episode or even 12 or Clara isn't the same as those that just don't like Moffat. I once heard someone say they had nothing against the British Royal family, They just hated the Windsors :p At some point it has to mean you aren't a fan of the show. If you aren't a fan of the show, what makes you keep watching. It's more a need I have not just with this show but many long running shows. This is really just me wanting to know to help me understand. It's all coming off Condescending but I don't really mean it as such. Sh-t I'm like Lolo Jones and don't know how to shut up. I promise not to bring this up again.

 

Clara on the date wasn't that bad. Yes it was awkward. Dates can be awkward sometimes. We were getting some insight into both Clara and Pink's characters and getting time travel redo moments that aren't actually redo's really since you enter at a time after the awkward happens. But they are the same people so the awkwardness continued. I wouldn't want to spend a lot of time on dates but since Pink's a recurring character for this season we were with two of the season's characters. Awkward has been a way they have shown Pink to be this season. 

Edited September 17, 2014 by tarotx

[tv-talk]

I just meant, that if you aren't a fan of Moffat then why what to waste you time? Just have the show close with Tennant leaving

 

 

By the end I had grown pretty weary of Tennant and actually found Matt Smith to be a breath of fresh air most especially because he got some great stories, so for me it's not any feeling one way or another towards Moffat so much as where he has decided to go with the Doctor and Clara story right now. Doctor as an aging, unbalanced, ahole isnt a Doctor I want to watch, so I'll stop watching if it really becomes The Clara Show. 

 

On paper these episodes are good, but it just seems like they are doing too much and mess up the whole thing. Take out Clara visiting the boy doctor and just make the episode about the universal dream and it's a classic Who story.

I said before, not everything has to be A Thing. I think they're going overboard on having All This Add Up. Just having a seasonal plot of the Doctor coming back to his Doctor-ness is totally fine.

 

 

I would echo these thoughts 100%, this was actually a very good episode until it split into 2 shows and went overboard at end.

 

I mean so far they both are depressed with PTSD symptoms and questioning themselves.

 

 

One question, what has the show specifically said about this 'PTSD' Doctor? Is this something fans are assuming based on the Doctor's behavior and having been on Trenzalore or was this spelled out at one point and I missed it? Obviously, initially after a regen the Doctor is out of sorts, but I didnt take this past episode and the Doctor's crippling fear of the dark to be related to having newly regenerated. 

[tarotx]

By the end I had grown pretty weary of Tennant and actually found Matt Smith to be a breath of fresh air most especially because he got some great stories, so for me it's not any feeling one way or another towards Moffat so much as where he has decided to go with the Doctor and Clara story right now. Doctor as an aging, unbalanced, ahole isnt a Doctor I want to watch, so I'll stop watching if it really becomes The Clara Show. 

 

 

I would echo these thoughts 100%, this was actually a very good episode until it split into 2 shows and went overboard at end.

 

 

One question, what has the show specifically said about this 'PTSD' Doctor? Is this something fans are assuming based on the Doctor's behavior and having been on Trenzalore or was this spelled out at one point and I missed it? Obviously, initially after a regen the Doctor is out of sorts, but I didnt take this past episode and the Doctor's crippling fear of the dark to be related to having newly regenerated. 

There has been no point in the show that says PTSD and the show may never name it. I mean, like you said, regenerating has it's own instability. From the memory loss to his continued Off kilter behavior and they have shown this common aspect between Pink and 12. And there was a direct linking with Pink and the soldier and the Doctor and the Soldier. I don't know if that is where they are going with this (that is why I try to qualify the word with using symptoms) but it feels like it to me. What would cause this in the Doctor? The whole "if you keep changing parts of yourself are you still you" Question is a big factor.  This new regen cycle and the events of the Trenzalore episodes and Gallifrey. It's all linked. Imo. 

[ohjoy]

By the end I had grown pretty weary of Tennant and actually found Matt Smith to be a breath of fresh air most especially because he got some great stories, so for me it's not any feeling one way or another towards Moffat so much as where he has decided to go with the Doctor and Clara story right now. Doctor as an aging, unbalanced, ahole isnt a Doctor I want to watch, so I'll stop watching if it really becomes The Clara Show.

 

THIS. Eleven is my Doctor. I'm not a Moffat-hater. I'm not a Clara-hater. I do however, dislike the trend that has the show going from "The Doctor saves the day with the teamwork and support of his trusty companion(s)" to "The Doctor is physically/mentally/emotionally incapacitated or otherwise incapable of saving the day (that is probably in peril due to his own faulty actions), so 'this is a job for the companion(s)'" in ways that are increasingly less and less subtle.

[miles2go]

We're having a very interesting discussion here.  I'm going to toss in my two-bits worth.

In regards to why keep watching when you dislike the material:  for those of us who are dyed-in-the-wool fans, there's a sense of commitment.  That may seem silly -- it's only a TV show, after all -- but there it is.  Also, we hope that things will improve (although, lately, that hope is rather faint).

 

Regarding Moffat:  At his best, Moffat is a brilliant writer.  My favorite NuWho story is the "The Empty Child" two-parter, which was his creation.  He has also written a number of other stories that I like.  So I do admire his talent, even if I'm a little doubtful of his skills as a showrunner.   I have had no strenuous objections to most DW material until this season.

 

Many have compared the bickering of  Doc 9 and Jack in "Empty" with that of Doc 12 and Robin in "Robot".  It is true that they are similar in type, but the 9/Jack interaction was very funny, while 12/ Robin is tedious.  Moreover, the Doctor didn't come across as a dunce in "Empty".  (Maybe Gattiss just isn't as skilled at writing that kind of dialogue?  )

 

"The Empty Child/Doctor Dances" was also a very spooky story that had a coherent plot.  "Listen" was a very spooky story that went into several different directions and ended up being barely coherent.  I got the feeling it was held together by duct tape.

 

Okay, so maybe it's not fair to compare the current season against one previous episode (and I do realize I'm rambling a bit).  My point is that Moffett is quite capable of producing great stuff, but that certainly isn't apparent with what we've seen so far this year.

 

It could be that all this will change as the current season's story arc unfolds.  Maybe all of "Listen"'s incoherencies and loose ends will prove relevant and/or be explained by season's end (Could that have been Scary Poppins under the bedspread?  Now that would be disturbing!) I'm willing to wait and see. The problem is, this episode contains some damaging stuff:  Clara actually bossing around the Doctor, and her inadvertent meddling with his past.  Can DW recover from this?  Time will tell.

 

Okay, this old geezer has rambled on long enough.  Thanks for your patience. :)

[ganesh]

Maybe all of "Listen"'s incoherencies and loose ends will prove relevant and/or be explained by season's end (Could that have been Scary Poppins under the bedspread?  Now that would be disturbing!)

 

That's my point. Does every episode have to have a time delay till the end of the season for it to pay off? Even Robin Hood had the stupid ass "promised land" in it. 

 

Since this is primarily a kids show, I'd think that "The Doctor saves the day with the teamwork and support of his trusty companion(s)" [and guest stars] would be a better theme since it implies that people can work together to solve problems. If the companion has to go it alone, it should be more rare because it will diminish the effort.

[miles2go]

That's my point. Does every episode have to have a time delay till the end of the season for it to pay off? Even Robin Hood had the stupid ass "promised land" in it. 

 

Since this is primarily a kids show, I'd think that "The Doctor saves the day with the teamwork and support of his trusty companion(s)" [and guest stars] would be a better theme since it implies that people can work together to solve problems. If the companion has to go it alone, it should be more rare because it will diminish the effort.

In answer to your question, no, each episode should be able to stand on it's own.  But there's nothing wrong with story arcs, as long as they are worth the wait and are not overly complex.  Classic Who had serials with story lines that lasted (usually) from 4 to 6 weeks.  NuWho has season long story arcs instead.  To my mind, however, some character development would be a sufficient unifying theme for a season. Byzantine plot lines are not necessary.

 

I'm not sure that DW is primarily a kids show;  "family viewing" might be a better term.  Something suitable for all ages, in other words.  Apropos of that, I'm shuddering at the message the current series is sending out:  Old folks are doddering fools; young folks should take control.  Or maybe I'm reading too much into things.

[ketose]

Doctor Who would have to piss me off a lot to stop watching it. I'm just disappointed in this season because I'm excited about Peter Capaldi and I'm getting the Jenna Coleman make-up test. Coleman's problem goes back to the fact that she was exciting and mysterious up until about the third episode when she was an actual companion. It's strong set up and weak delivery.

 

That being said, Doctor Who always had flaws in production, effects, writing and continuity. Original Who had miles of heart and I think that might be lacking in later seasons.

[Llywela]

I said before, not everything has to be A Thing. I think they're going overboard on having All This Add Up. Just having a seasonal plot of the Doctor coming back to his Doctor-ness is totally fine. At the time of the regen, Eleven thought he was really going to die for good. Coming back from that is interesting. Having Clara, who knew Eleven, around during this process is also interesting. Why isn't that enough for a show?

Character stories are never enough for the show these days. That's the trouble. If they would just dial back slightly and focus on just telling some rollicking good stories about characters, rather than trying to find good stories that are also Meaningful and Significant on a larger scale, I think they might do better. I always feel like every episode is trying too hard to be something More, if that makes sense. Show is obsessed with sensation - character stories can be wonderful, but they aren't the required amount of sensational, so the extra Plot gets grafted on top, and it all becomes too much.

Being honest is always the best policy when dealing with anything rather that is a positive or negative feeling. Sorry sometime I just don't get why people stay with things that they aren't enjoying. Re reading that section it does seem mean. I didn't mean as not to post your frustrations. I would have imploded if I didn't have a place to vent during the last years of Buffy and during a couple of seasons of SYTYCD. I just meant, that if you aren't a fan of Moffat then why want to waste your time? Just have the show close with Tennant leaving (which I meant as an if the show isn't renewed after Moffat) or to wait for a new show runner. Moffat's who has been the same since he had Jack and 9 man upping over a gun and a Banana. The Doctor did seem to come out better in that episode (which is one of my all time favorite stories) but Moffat has been the same from the beginning. Though Listen was a play on that sameness which worked for some of us but not for others. 

Why watch when I don't like Moffat's showrunning style? Well, I can't speak for others but I can speak for myself. I've grown up a Doctor Who fan. I was born during the 4th Doctor adventure Robots of Death. Watching the 4th Doctor's regeneration is among my earliest memories. I've watched Doctor Who all my life - airing episodes on telly, older serials on VHS and UK Gold reruns. I collected Target novelisations growing up. I avidly followed the production of the TV Movie in 1996. I was thrilled to bits when the show came back on the air. I've been a Doctor Who fan all my life. I happen to not much like the current showrunner - that doesn't mean I'm going to stop watching. He won't be around forever. It's a bit like being a football fan: you take the season as it comes, hoping that the new manager can knock the team into shape.There's always the hope it'll work out all right. You win some and you lose some, and you grumble and you groan when things don't quite work out, but at the end of the day you know that you're never going to give it up, because the whole is so much greater than the sum of its parts.

 

In answer to your question, no, each episode should be able to stand on it's own.  But there's nothing wrong with story arcs, as long as they are worth the wait and are not overly complex.  Classic Who had serials with story lines that lasted (usually) from 4 to 6 weeks.  NuWho has season long story arcs instead.  To my mind, however, some character development would be a sufficient unifying theme for a season. Byzantine plot lines are not necessary.

There's nothing wrong with story arcs, but the trouble is that there are very few writers who are actually good at weaving story arcs through a season, and fewer still at telling compelling story arcs that do justice to characters (I'm talking about more shows than just Doctor Who here). NuWho seasonal arcs are not the same as classic Who serials, in which a single adventure took place over 4-6 episodes - seasonal arcs involve individual episode plots with elements that add together to form a longer story arc, a different kettle of fish entirely, although the classic show did have a few of those, as well. But like I said, there aren't many writers who do a good job with story arcs, which as a result usually restrict the natural growth of character stories, because the arcs get imposed on the characters instead of building on their growth as a character. Arcs rarely feel natural, because they are rarely allowed to grow from within the story itself but are grafted on from outside - and always there's that obsessive need to go bigger, everything always has to be more sensational than what came before, which is a trend that's rarely good for any show.

Edited September 18, 2014 by Llywela

[supposebly]

Well, I'm a NuWho watcher and I think RTD was the superior showrunner. Still, I enjoyed season 5 and 6 and parts of 7. It's just that it starts to feel like Moffat is using the same old bag of tricks and it seem to be getting repetitive even more to the detriment of the individual episodes. They worked with me the first time, so I'm not saying it's all bad.

 

And well, Matt Smith charmed my socks off after I got used to him and I expect Capaldi to do the same but instead I still have to deal with Clara, the first NuWho companion I absolutely cannot stand.

 

It might surprise me in the end, season 5 did that too and I took a long time to warm up to Amy but right now, I'm meh and I've been meh pretty much since Clara appeared as the bloody impossible girl. I miss being excited.

 

But I also hope it will come back.

[Llywela]

I still have to deal with Clara, the first NuWho companion I absolutely cannot stand.

For me, she's the first companion of any era that I cannot stand - and I've met them all. I'm lukewarm on a couple of others - Mel and Dodo - but Clara is the first I've really disliked, and it disappoints me so much because I wanted to like her. But she's so badly overwritten, it's grating.

[Lugal]

Character stories are never enough for the show these days. That's the trouble. If they would just dial back slightly and focus on just telling some rollicking good stories about characters, rather than trying to find good stories that are also Meaningful and Significant on a larger scale, I think they might do better. I always feel like every episode is trying too hard to be something More, if that makes sense. Show is obsessed with sensation - character stories can be wonderful, but they aren't the required amount of sensational, so the extra Plot gets grafted on top, and it all becomes too much.

 

 

For me, she's the first companion of any era that I cannot stand - and I've met them all. I'm lukewarm on a couple of others - Mel and Dodo - but Clara is the first I've really disliked, and it disappoints me so much because I wanted to like her. But she's so badly overwritten, it's grating.

 

 

You can kind of see the Meaningful and Significant thing with the Moffat-era companions.  You have Amy Pond "The Girl Who Waited" and Clara "The Impossible Girl" and even with Rory, "The Last Centurion."  It's like they need that extra title or something to flesh them out a little more.  But it really doesn't add anything to them.  If I just say: Martha Jones, Donna Noble, Sarah Jane Smith, Ace.  If you were watching when they were on, you already know more about the characters without the Significant Title.

 

I miss it when there was something about the companion that impressed the Doctor as opposed to the companion being some mystery for the Doctor to figure out.

 

Well, I'm a NuWho watcher and I think RTD was the superior showrunner. Still, I enjoyed season 5 and 6 and parts of 7. It's just that it starts to feel like Moffat is using the same old bag of tricks and it seem to be getting repetitive even more to the detriment of the individual episodes. They worked with me the first time, so I'm not saying it's all bad.

Say what you will about RTD (and there were things he did I didn't like) but his episodes have a higher rewatch value.  The only Moffat-era eps I really remember rewatching multiple times are A Town called Mercy and The Crimson Horror

[tv-talk]

I miss it when there was something about the companion that impressed the Doctor as opposed to the companion being some mystery for the Doctor to figure out.

 

 

yeah, that's pretty much the long and short of it.

 

The show is Doctor Who afterall.

Edited September 18, 2014 by tv-talk

[alias1]

I so agree with the rewatching.  I'll watch 9 and 10 every time they're on and I hardly ever rewatch anything from 11.  I didn't care for much of 11's run but I watched it anyway.  I just tend to not rewatch it.  The entire Amy Pond story was so over the top.  The MOST special companion (EVER!).   I think Moffat was totally infatuated with her.  He said we can't think of Matt without Karen.  Oh, yes we can!   I personally found Clara to be a breath of fresh air.  I liked her with Matt and I like her with the new Doctor.  She does remind me of Sarah Jane.  She wasn't ordering the Doctor around.  She didn't want the Doctor getting off in Gallifrey.  OK so I wasn't totally on board with her being on Gallifrey but since she was I could understand that she didn't want him to know they were there.  I see Clara as a normal girl in extraordinary circumstances.  I'm so happy for this new season (apparently someone has to be).

[BizBuzz]

I'm so happy for this new season (apparently someone has to be).

 

You aren't the only one, my daughter and I are there with you!  ::giggle::

[supposebly]

 

You can kind of see the Meaningful and Significant thing with the Moffat-era companions.  You have Amy Pond "The Girl Who Waited" and Clara "The Impossible Girl" and even with Rory, "The Last Centurion."  It's like they need that extra title or something to flesh them out a little more.  But it really doesn't add anything to them.  If I just say: Martha Jones, Donna Noble, Sarah Jane Smith, Ace.  If you were watching when they were on, you already know more about the characters without the Significant Title.

 

So true. It seems the characterization of Moffatt's companions is reduced to advertisement slogans. But that might also just be some sort of writing tick. IMO, Amy was something different in season 5 and I would argue Rory was much more than the last centurion. It's just Clara that doesn't seem to be more than an impossible girl because I don't really know what else she is.

I rewatch 1-6 pretty regularly although I skip more in season 6 and haven't seen Amy and Rory's farewell episode except when it aired. I hate that stupid Statue of Liberty angel.

To make a comparison with the other "part-time" companions Amy and Rory. It made sense for them, they addressed that they had a hard time settling down although they liked to "one day". Life with the Doctor did quite a number on them and their daughter anyway.

River part-timed out of necessity and commitment.

With Clara, it seems flaky and pointless. Did she ever say why she doesn't want to travel full-time? Why is that even a thing? Even if she did, she could come back the moment she left (more or less, considering the Tardis' irregularities), but still. I don't understand it. It's like she goes on Sunday trips once in a while which generally adds to the impression that nothing ever really affects her.

[benteen]

You can kind of see the Meaningful and Significant thing with the Moffat-era companions.  You have Amy Pond "The Girl Who Waited" and Clara "The Impossible Girl" and even with Rory, "The Last Centurion."  It's like they need that extra title or something to flesh them out a little more.  But it really doesn't add anything to them.  If I just say: Martha Jones, Donna Noble, Sarah Jane Smith, Ace.  If you were watching when they were on, you already know more about the characters without the Significant Title.

 

I miss it when there was something about the companion that impressed the Doctor as opposed to the companion being some mystery for the Doctor to figure out.

 

Say what you will about RTD (and there were things he did I didn't like) but his episodes have a higher rewatch value.  The only Moffat-era eps I really remember rewatching multiple times are A Town called Mercy and The Crimson Horror

 

I thought The Last Centurion thing was cool but I see your point.  Moffat's companions have been reduced to catchphrases, something RTD's companions (or the Classic companions) weren't.

 

Amy and Rory's part-time status makes sense.  It was their third series and they'd been through a lot with the Doctor already.  But Clara, by the time she finally got this "Impossible Girl" thing worked out, she moved right to part-time companion.

[Lugal]

I thought The Last Centurion thing was cool but I see your point.  Moffat's companions have been reduced to catchphrases, something RTD's companions (or the Classic companions) weren't.

 

So true. It seems the characterization of Moffatt's companions is reduced to advertisement slogans. But that might also just be some sort of writing tick. IMO, Amy was something different in season 5 and I would argue Rory was much more than the last centurion. It's just Clara that doesn't seem to be more than an impossible girl because I don't really know what else she is.

 

I agree the Last Centurion was cool, and the Girl Who Waited didn't grate like the Impossible Girl (Moffat's Law of diminishing returns?)  I did like Amy and Rory.  I thought they did develop into really cool companions and I think that may be due to Karen Gillan and Arthur Darvill (especialy if you've seen him in Broadchurch) than to anything Moffat did.

 

You could kind of see this early on with the Girl in the Fireplace.  You have the nickname and something about this girl the Doctor must figure out.  It was still an awesome episode, but it shows how long Moffat's been going to that well.

 

Amy and Rory's part-time status makes sense.  It was their third series and they'd been through a lot with the Doctor already.  But Clara, by the time she finally got this "Impossible Girl" thing worked out, she moved right to part-time companion.

 

 

I rewatch 1-6 pretty regularly although I skip more in season 6 and haven't seen Amy and Rory's farewell episode except when it aired. I hate that stupid Statue of Liberty angel.

To make a comparison with the other "part-time" companions Amy and Rory. It made sense for them, they addressed that they had a hard time settling down although they liked to "one day". Life with the Doctor did quite a number on them and their daughter anyway.

River part-timed out of necessity and commitment.

With Clara, it seems flaky and pointless. Did she ever say why she doesn't want to travel full-time? Why is that even a thing? Even if she did, she could come back the moment she left (more or less, considering the Tardis' irregularities), but still. I don't understand it. It's like she goes on Sunday trips once in a while which generally adds to the impression that nothing ever really affects her.

 

It did make sense with Rory and Amy.  They were the beginning of the part-time companion, but were not as part time as Clara is and they were a married couple.  I remember they did comment on how dull their life is when they weren't traveling with the Doctor, and about how they didn't have any friends.  I thought that was pretty cool, to address their culture shock when they got home.  (I also hated their finale.  They were sent to the past but the Doctor could never see them again for some stupid Moffaty reason.  I thought they deserved better.)

 

Clara however, is the Impossible Girl, but her mystery has been solved and I don't think Moffat knows what to do with her.  Jenna Coleman is doing the best with what she's got, but it's not much.  Clara is the one who should be ready to leave with the Doctor, since she has no close family that we've seen and her job seems to be exasperating, yet she treats traveling with the Doctor like it's a distraction. It doesn't do much to make me like her.

[ketose]

It did make sense with Rory and Amy.  They were the beginning of the part-time companion, but were not as part time as Clara is and they were a married couple.  I remember they did comment on how dull their life is when they weren't traveling with the Doctor, and about how they didn't have any friends.  I thought that was pretty cool, to address their culture shock when they got home.  (I also hated their finale.  They were sent to the past but the Doctor could never see them again for some stupid Moffaty reason.  I thought they deserved better.)

 

Clara however, is the Impossible Girl, but her mystery has been solved and I don't think Moffat knows what to do with her.  Jenna Coleman is doing the best with what she's got, but it's not much.  Clara is the one who should be ready to leave with the Doctor, since she has no close family that we've seen and her job seems to be exasperating, yet she treats traveling with the Doctor like it's a distraction. It doesn't do much to make me like her.

Reading this made me realize something. Ten, Eleven (and even Nine) were shown as new Doctors who needed help from a Companion. Rose and Amy stayed with the Doctor for weeks before they started doing the back and forth trips. Twelve seems like he hasn't finished cooking yet and Clara decides to just let him go crazy on his own. She's a sidekick, not a companion.

 

In this kind of situation where we know Coleman is leaving, they should consider just bringing on the next companion now. This happened with the original series Doctors, like Tom Baker and Peter Davison, where Companions entered and left and reconfigured as a group.

[drmka9]

Clara however, is the Impossible Girl, but her mystery has been solved and I don't think Moffat knows what to do with her.  Jenna Coleman is doing the best with what she's got, but it's not much.  Clara is the one who should be ready to leave with the Doctor, since she has no close family that we've seen and her job seems to be exasperating, yet she treats traveling with the Doctor like it's a distraction. It doesn't do much to make me like her.

Not long after Jenna Coleman was announced, I read a brief interview with Moffat in which he said that part of the reason he cast Coleman was because she could talk faster than Matt Smith. It didn't exactly impress me, as it didn't seem that Moffat had a clear idea of what to do with Clara or what her character would be. She was just someone that could talk faster than the Doctor, even when he was babbling away. I'd hoped that Moffat would get away from that, but it really doesn't seem like he has.  There's nothing tying her to her own place and time except her decision to stay there, but that decision has never really been explored. It's such a waste of a character that could be pretty interesting and an actress clearly talented enough to handle better material.

 

I am enjoying Capaldi, though, I'm just hoping he starts getting some better material. It's a shame that his Caecilius is still stronger than his Doctor.

[AudienceofOne]

If you tell us the next Doctor will be a woman great, just do that

 

 

I have enough issues with the idea of a female Doctor as it is, without having to deal with the revolting thought of her being written by Moffatt. His 19th century nun/whore dichotomy is bad enough for companions. I suppose I could get mileage out of speculating - will she be one of his "dirty girls" or  a"maternal magical idiot"?  

[cardigirl]

Well, I enjoyed this episode, not as much as 'Blink' but close.  To me it had some of the same feel as the Blink episode, which is great storytelling. And that had barely any of Tennant in it.  Ha ha. 

 

I did not mind that Clara ended up being the one that put that dream in the doctor's mind (or did she) or even the speech she gave.  I love moments like that between the characters.  It has taken me awhile to enjoy the Clara character, but this season I'm really starting to like her.

 

I also enjoyed the awkward first date and I think I'll really like Danny Pink when his character gets going.  I'm intrigued by him.

 

I want to find out about Missy and I always enjoy the story arcs.  So I guess I'm saying I'm on board.

 

I loved Matt Smith's time as the doctor, and was very sad when it ended.  Amy and Rory were great favorites of mine.  I never warmed up to Rose or Donna (eesh) but I did like Martha.  I enjoyed the story arcs and once the seasons were over, I enjoyed rewatching to see where the clues were dropped in.

So far Capaldi's doctor is not living up to my expectations, but I'm sure I'll come around.  I usually have to watch episodes twice to get a sense of whether or not I really liked the story. The show is so frenetic that one viewing alone is not enough, I miss too much.  Hanging on for the entire season!

[HauntedBathroom]

Wow, cardigirl, apart from disagreeing about Capaldi, it's like looking in a mirror!

[angora]

Little moment I loved:  the Doctor thinking that Clara might bring her date home with her and deciding that the bedroom was the best place to hide.  I also adored his disdain for her three mirrors.  "Why don't you just turn your head?" made me roll.  Generally, I thought this was one of Twelve's best episodes so far.  His crotchetiness was used well and mixed with less caustic qualities.  Like his interactions with young Danny; he gave that lovely, encouragement speech about fear, but when Danny wanted a bedtime story, it was all, "Sure!  Once upon a time-" (POKE! zzzzzzz...)  I thought those two bits summed him up nicely.

 

I would've enjoyed this episode a lot more if it were two episodes with two separate stories.  It felt like the creature-under-the-bed plot was just getting going when we split off into the Danny-and-his-descendants plot, and rather than putting them together organically, linking them felt like trying to jump an expanse.

 

Overall, I liked the Doctor-Clara relationship here.  I don't know that I'd say Clara is perfect or a Mary Sue, but the relationship between these two sometimes seem to be written like a sitcom marriage.  Despite the Doctor's meager protests when he disagrees with Clara, there's an air of "yes, dear" to his near-inevitable acquiescence, like he's cowed by her or afraid of crossing her.  Here, though, I thought they were mostly better.  They seemed more like pals who can disagree rather than a put-upon husband who has to do what the missus tells him.

 

That said, I'm getting sick of the criticisms of Clara's appearance.  After critical remarks in "Deep Breath" and "Into the Dalek" (can't remember any from "Robot of Sherwood,") we get the makeup discussion, comments about her wide face, and an evident dislike for the back of her head in this episode.  It just seems really weird to me, like Moffat is trying to prove how much the Doctor isn't into Clara.  Not being attracted to someone isn't the same as finding them unattractive, and while I'm thrilled that WE'RE DONE WITH THE FLIRTING (in case you missed those subtle hints in "Deep Breath,") I wish their platonic relationship could be conveyed just by - gasp! - writing them platonically.

 

Clara's foot-in-mouth-ness during the date felt off to me.  To the extent that she had a characterization in series 7, I thought of her as good at reading people.  She knows when someone's hurting and she needs to show some sensitivity, and it rang false to have her make a flippant remark about killing people when she already knows it's delicate subject for him.

[ketose]

Little moment I loved:  the Doctor thinking that Clara might bring her date home with her and deciding that the bedroom was the best place to hide.  I also adored his disdain for her three mirrors.  "Why don't you just turn your head?" made me roll. 

 

That said, I'm getting sick of the criticisms of Clara's appearance.  After critical remarks in "Deep Breath" and "Into the Dalek" (can't remember any from "Robot of Sherwood,") we get the makeup discussion, comments about her wide face, and an evident dislike for the back of her head in this episode.  It just seems really weird to me, like Moffat is trying to prove how much the Doctor isn't into Clara.  Not being attracted to someone isn't the same as finding them unattractive, and while I'm thrilled that WE'RE DONE WITH THE FLIRTING (in case you missed those subtle hints in "Deep Breath,") I wish their platonic relationship could be conveyed just by - gasp! - writing them platonically.

I did notice the thing about the bedroom. Nine might have at least parked outside.

 

Clara is cute enough, but she does tend to dress a little below her age. I did like what the Doctor said about the back of her head, just because Clara was talking about how good she looked from the back.

[shapeshifter]

...I would've enjoyed this episode a lot more if it were two episodes with two separate stories.  It felt like the creature-under-the-bed plot was just getting going when we split off into the Danny-and-his-descendants plot, and rather than putting them together organically, linking them felt like trying to jump an expanse....

Yes, this seems to be the in-vogue story-telling style for TV shows for the 21st century. It's almost like they think they can fake out the viewer into thinking s/he has just switched the channel and so doesn't still need to do so.

[Jenniferbug]

This episode was proof that when Moffatt is on, he's on- while simultaneously being proof of every reason why he should not be in charge of the show.

I'm late watching this one, so I don't have a lot to say that hasn't already been said. This episode left me with mixed feelings. The premise was good, I like Danny, and Clara has finally begun to grow on me...and then we get a nonsensical end that answers nothing the premise set up, and Danny and Clara seem reduced to being Jenna's exit story (should she choose to leave).

I could definitely have done without the glimpse into the Doctor's past. At this point in the show (50 YEARS in), it seems incredibly presumptuous and pompous of Moffat and crew to think they have the right to create so much back story of a character who doesn't need it. They need to spend more time developing the characters they created, and less time creating backstory for a character who is essentially on loan to them (and who Moffat is claiming is not the main character anyway).

I'm not sure why Clara suddenly seemed so sure that Orson was her great grandson. If his name had been Clarence or Oswald or something, I could see that plus the toy soldier convincing her. But all she knows is that he looks like Danny, has Danny's toy soldier, and has Danny's last name. No real reason to think he's related to her at all. But maybe I missed something and will watch again with when my husband does to see.

[Llywela]

I'm not sure why Clara suddenly seemed so sure that Orson was her great grandson. If his name had been Clarence or Oswald or something, I could see that plus the toy soldier convincing her. But all she knows is that he looks like Danny, has Danny's toy soldier, and has Danny's last name. No real reason to think he's related to her at all. But maybe I missed something and will watch again with when my husband does to see.

It was because Orson said that time travel was in the family, that was what made Clara believe he was related to her - she has no reason to believe Danny will ever travel in time and aside from the Doctor Clara herself is the only time traveller she knows, certainly the only time traveller she knows who also knows Danny. It's not an outrageous leap to make, but it is quite a big leap nonetheless. She has no idea what her future holds and can't presume it includes Danny based on a very brief conversation with someone from the future. She barely knows the man yet now believes they are destined to be together and is acting accordingly; I find that troubling.

Edited September 20, 2014 by Llywela

[Jenniferbug]

Did he say his great grandmother was a time traveller, or were they deliberately vague and said grandparents? I can't remember. It's not an outrageous leap, but it does seem to assume a lot. I'd be more likely to assume that I would someday bring Danny with me on the Tardis, making him a time traveller too...but I'm not Clara :-)

[Llywela]

Did he say his great grandmother was a time traveller, or were they deliberately vague and said grandparents? I can't remember. It's not an outrageous leap, but it does seem to assume a lot. I'd be more likely to assume that I would someday bring Danny with me on the Tardis, making him a time traveller too...but I'm not Clara :-)

He doesn't specify at all. He just says that time travel is in the family, which is why he got involved with an experiment involving time travel. And yes exactly - it's a huge leap for Clara to make, there are all kinds of possibilities, but she seems to have concluded that since Orson is (apparently) Danny's great-grandson and claims that time travel is in the family and she, a time traveller, is currently dating Danny, that must mean that despite their horrible first date she and Danny are meant to be together. So they can jump straight past the getting-to-know-you, as well as the whole smoothing-out-everything-that-just-went-wrong thing and launch right on into a relationship, skipping the preamble.

 

It shouldn't surprise me that Clara would jump to that conclusion, though - she is quite self-involved and has a very high opinion of herself.

Edited September 20, 2014 by Llywela

[ketose]

The problem with timey-wimey is that it gives license to change everyone's history. Remember how Amy suddenly got back parents she didn't remember right away? The Master had the drum beat drummed into him by the evil time lords (which somehow didn't exist in The Day of the Doctor). I guess that malleability now applies to the Doctor's time line as well.

[tarotx]

Clara made that leap because Orson gave her the broken soldier while emphasizing that it was a family Air loom. It's really not that big of a leap. Her parents have already been shown to have been believers of romantic destiny. 

[Llywela]

The problem with timey-wimey is that it gives license to change everyone's history. Remember how Amy suddenly got back parents she didn't remember right away? The Master had the drum beat drummed into him by the evil time lords (which somehow didn't exist in The Day of the Doctor). I guess that malleability now applies to the Doctor's time line as well.

 

 

Clara made that leap because Orson gave her the broken soldier while emphasizing that it was a family Air loom. It's really not that big of a leap. Her parents have already been shown to have been believers of romantic destiny. 

But that heirloom is a Pink family heirloom - the broken soldier belonged to Danny, not to Clara, so it is still a big leap for her to assume she must be part of that family legacy. I can see why she makes the leap - and yes, her belief in romantic destiny is in character - but she's still on dodgy ground if she's going to build her life around that assumption. For all she knows, Danny might meet the Doctor through her and become a time traveller, then build a family with someone else, all of which would fulfil the backstory Orson gave her. There are loads of possibilities. She just seems to be taking a lot on trust and I don't want to see her rushing into something without being sure she and Danny are really right for each other.

[Which Tyler]

My reading of it is that Clara assumed that Orson was her descendant because he basically told her that he was. To paraphrase:

Orson gives her the soldier

Clara says "I couldn't possibly, it belongs in your family"

Orson says "Exactly" and gives her the soldier.

 

It's a very, very small leap to assume that Orson considers Clara to be her family, and he's in a much better position to know than she is. Factor in the rest of it, and it's a valid leap for her to make.

[Llywela]

The trouble I'm having is that whether we consider it a large or a small leap to make, we still end up in the same position of Clara dating a guy she thinks she is 'destined' to be with, which I'm sure Steven Moffat and many other people consider romantic, but I don't, I find it creepy and full of potential to go horribly wrong.

[tarotx]

But she was raised by parents who felt that Leaf was destiny. And this is a character who jumped into the Doctor's time stream because she felt she had already done it because the doctor had said he he met her in other lives. Going all in with Danny because she believes they are destined is in character from how she was raised and how she has been shown to be on the series. 

 

Now rather or not she is destined to be with Pink is still in question. Especially since shapeshifters are in play. 

The trouble I'm having is that whether we consider it a large or a small leap to make, we still end up in the same position of Clara dating a guy she thinks she is 'destined' to be with, which I'm sure Steven Moffat and many other people consider romantic, but I don't, I find it creepy and full of potential to go horribly wrong.

[Mabinogia]

Going all in with Danny because she believes they are destined is in character from how she was raised and how she has been shown to be on the series.

 

 

Yes, it was actually very in character. That doesn't mean it wasn't a huge leap to make, but making that huge leap is in character so I liked it. I like when the show is actually consistent with a character. Now, if one of the other companions had done it, I'd be all "the hell?" But since Clara is all about density it makes sense for her. She was probably looking for it, practically begging for a sign that she was part of the Pink family. Now, what would be interesting is if she acted on that assumption but it turned out to be her just reading too much into something, but that is way too interesting and complex for Moffat's little kiddie show so I expect it is destiny, she is the future Mrs. Pink and this is really just a simplistic, futuristic fairytale. (Funny thing is, until I read that Moffat insists this is a show for kids I never ever thought it was. *Shrugs*) But what do I know. I thought this was a show about the Doctor and apparently I'm wrong about that too.

 

I will continue to reluctantly watch in the hopes of getting another Blink, another The Empty Child, another Fires of Pompeii. Until the end of this ep this one was a pretty great episode. I know there was a lot to knitpick but my biggest one was why the hell did Clara grab little Doctor's leg? I mean who does that to a kid? That was pretty fucked up. Kid is scared, hears something under his bed and you freaking grab his leg? I'm going to chalk it up to Clara's desperation to have everything in her life be all deep and meaningful and pre-destined, so she only did it because she knows the Doctor had that nightmare and she has a desperate need to insert herself into every important event him his life.

[ketose]

Yes, it was actually very in character. That doesn't mean it wasn't a huge leap to make, but making that huge leap is in character so I liked it. I like when the show is actually consistent with a character. Now, if one of the other companions had done it, I'd be all "the hell?" But since Clara is all about density it makes sense for her. She was probably looking for it, practically begging for a sign that she was part of the Pink family. Now, what would be interesting is if she acted on that assumption but it turned out to be her just reading too much into something, but that is way too interesting and complex for Moffat's little kiddie show so I expect it is destiny, she is the future Mrs. Pink and this is really just a simplistic, futuristic fairytale. (Funny thing is, until I read that Moffat insists this is a show for kids I never ever thought it was. *Shrugs*) But what do I know. I thought this was a show about the Doctor and apparently I'm wrong about that too.

 

I will continue to reluctantly watch in the hopes of getting another Blink, another The Empty Child, another Fires of Pompeii. Until the end of this ep this one was a pretty great episode. I know there was a lot to knitpick but my biggest one was why the hell did Clara grab little Doctor's leg? I mean who does that to a kid? That was pretty fucked up. Kid is scared, hears something under his bed and you freaking grab his leg? I'm going to chalk it up to Clara's desperation to have everything in her life be all deep and meaningful and pre-destined, so she only did it because she knows the Doctor had that nightmare and she has a desperate need to insert herself into every important event him his life.

 Doctor Who was a children's show, although it really walks the line in the case of NuWho.

 

I think Clara grabbed the kid's leg to stop him from seeing the Doctor since she had just heard about how bad it is to meet yourself. Given this continued role as the Doctor's protector, I can see why that was her initial reaction before she realized the consequences.

[alias1]

ketose said:

I think Clara grabbed the kid's leg to stop him from seeing the Doctor since she had just heard about how bad it is to meet yourself. Given this continued role as the Doctor's protector, I can see why that was her initial reaction before she realized the consequences.

-------

Yes, that is exactly why Clara grabbed his leg and then, horrified that she had done that, she proceeded to try to allay his fears about something being under the bed. 

 

Since I like Clara I feel like I get some her actions more than people who really dislike her because they can barely watch her,.  Sorry, I know that sounds a little arrogant and I don't mean it that way.  We all have a right to our opinions.  I love the interaction between Clara and this new Doctor.  She is wonderful as a companion and I don't mind the fact that she goes off on a date.  Falling in love will trump almost anything. 

 

I've rewatched this episode and I like it so much more the 2nd time. 

[elle]

Was the tin soldier that Clara left for the child aka The Doctor the same as the one that young Rupert Pink called "Dan the Soldier Man", which was handed down through his family?  If yes, how did it get from The Doctor back to Rupert?

 

My main complaint about this episode is that is was such a bait-and-switch set up.  Fine have a change up within the story but don't give me a mysterious something under the blanket without a real life explanation.  Are we supposed to assume it was a mass hallucination?

 

Oh, and The Doctor really should watch the X-Files episode "Detour".

[HauntedBathroom]

Was the tin soldier that Clara left for the child aka The Doctor the same as the one that young Rupert Pink called "Dan the Soldier Man", which was handed down through his family?  If yes, how did it get from The Doctor back to Rupert?

It didn't. The progress of the soldier went toy box in the home -->Rupert --> Orson --> Clara -->young Doctor in the past. We may find out later on that one of the TARDIS crew travelled back to the home to leave the soldier there, but it's path is clear as it is.

Edited September 22, 2014 by HauntedBathroom