S08.E04: Listen

[Florinaldo]

Tis episode started very well with an intriguing idea, actually based on fact: many people do have waking dreams where they imagine they are awake and there is a presence in the room but they can't move. From what I remember reading though, the part about getting up and having your ankles grabbed from under the bed is an addition by the show based on that premise; that state is called "sleep paralysis" after all.
 
The determination and conviction of Capaldi's depiction of the Doctor made it possible to ignore the fact that there have been other "hidden from sight" menaces in the past, although the perhaps unavoidable use of the word "silence" was an unfortunate reminder at times. But I felt the atmosphere and suspense were on the whole excellently maintained throughout.
 
And then things fell apart when Clara landed on Gallifrey, depsite it being time-locked or in a parallel universe, take your pick of whatever explanation the writers find convenient on any given week. I suppose we could accept the costumes and run-down aspect of the barn, since in "The Day of the Doctor" Gallifrey was shown as based on a class system with marked differences in clothing and visible technological advancement between the Time Lords and the general population. But Clara being at the origin of the Doctor's nightmare in effect negated all that preceded in the episode and rendered it ultimately irrelevant, making it a much ado about nothing series of events.
 
I think I will rewatch the episode for the very good 35 first minutes or so, and turn it off before that absurd resolution begins.

 

Also, shouldn't the last man in the universe actually be Jack Harkness and not the Doctor since he's all immortal and stuff.

Not if you buy that throwaway line about him being called the Face of Boe back home.

[tv echo]

I thought that this episode was the best one for Peter Capaldi's portrayal of the Doctor so far (in contrast to the silly, amnesiac old Doctor or petty bickering, alpha-competitive Doctor of past episodes) because he acted with a lot more conviction.  However, the episode itself had many flaws.  There were genuine spooky moments and the overall tone of the episode was one of gripping suspense (except for the date scenes).

 

Some of the lines seemed over the top, both in content and acting.  It's like the writer got carried away with the prose and forgot how real people talk.  I think the show was trying too hard to create another iconic episode (like the Weeping Angels or the Silence episodes mentioned by others) and fell short.

 

The Doctor's original premise was flawed.  There is no such thing as a perfect predator or a perfect defense (certainly not the creatures in those pictures); therefore, there should be no such thing as a perfect hiding creature.

 

Another big problem was why would the Doctor focus now, out of all his long life/lives, on his fears of the creature in the dark?  There should've been some kind of trigger.

 

I also don't understand the Gallifrey visit either.  Unless it's only Gallifrey of the present and future that's locked, and you can still visit Gallifrey of the past.

 

So Clara was the thing under the bed that the Doctor was afraid of as a child?  Does that mean the shadow thing that everyone fears (including the thing under the blanket in Rupert's room) doesn't really exist, or was created out of a person's fears and imagination, or was a traveling Time Lord or companion?

 

As others have noted above, the new Doctor is really being written and portrayed as weak as a human being with a lot of human foibles - nothing special.  

 

(P.S.  Captain Jack Harkness is currently masquerading as human Malcolm Merlyn on Arrow.)

Edited September 14, 2014 by tv echo

[Primetimer]

If the Doctor misses his home planet so much, why has he never gone back in time to visit it?

Read the story

[NeenerNeener]

I had no idea that JLC was thinking of leaving until I read this thread. Wow, that seems quick....not that I'm going to miss her at all. For someone who was supposed to be the "Impossible Girl" she's been pretty much a non-entity for me.

[benteen]

 

But if she somehow made it to Gallifrey, either she could hide ti from the Doctor so he doesn't realize she meddled in his childhood.  Or she could TELL HIM SHE FOUND A WAY FOR HIM TO RESCUE HIS PEOPLE!!!

 

I wouldn't count on it.  Clara was annoyingly concealing information on why they were in Danny's timeline for no reason.

 

Still annoyed at Clara's snide comments to Danny because she and the Doctor both have a stick up their assess about soldiers.

 

This season seems to be dealing with the early life of the Doctor.  Last week referencing that the left a life of privilege and this week we see his childhood.  I'm mixed on that.  I'd like to know more about the Doctor's past but at the same time I can appreciate how they've managed to keep much of his early life a secret.

[stopeslite]

One really good thing about this episode - The Doctor is frighteningly fallible. We've seen him stumble and be wrong about things before, but this was an error built around his own fears and insecurities and loneliness and possibly age. It wasn't just coming to the wrong conclusion or miscalculating, it was an entire fantasy that he had convinced himself was real, and that's a terrifying trait to have in someone as powerful as he is. I'll be really interested if they start exploring this aspect of his new personality.

Also, it was actually scary. I can't even remember the last time I was scared at a tv show or movie, but when that bed sank in? I was live-tweeting and went immediately to ALL CAPS and then when the bedsheet ghost started moving I was all OH NO OH NO.

I could have even been on board with Clara being the monster under the bed, because wouldn't it be funny that the magic girl who saved him all the time was also the source of one of his worst fears? That would be a clever inversion of the impossible girl. But then... no. If they had just had her leave and not give him that last big speech, I would have been fine with it. I've been so pleased with the characterization they've suddenly given her, but that speech just thrust her back into the Save The Doctor Saint role.

Also still having trouble with the sound mix this season - it was better this episode, but I couldn't hear most of the conversation between the two guardians. I barely caught "time lord" and realized basically what was going on.

I'm still cautiously optimistic, but I'm afraid they really do have to get rid of Clara and wipe that storyline clean to move on.

[tv-talk]

Clara yelling at the Doctor "Do as you're told" in the TARDIS might be worst moment in entire history of the series. 

[cambridgeguy]

Well, I think this episode is Moffat in a nutshell.  If you like his themes and tendencies then this episode was a home run - if you think he should be fired then this episode illustrates why he should be gone.

 

That being said, the idea of the companion being the greatest person ever is something that RTD started - unfortunately, with the frequent turnover that means one upping the previous companion becomes harder without making her the most important person in the universe.  Rose made a beaten down 9th Doctor better, Martha traveled the world alone while the 10th Doctor was a prisoner, Donna was explicitly called the most loyal companion, became part time lord, and saved everybody while 10 and a bunch of previous companions were helpless, Amy wished the 11th Doctor back into existence, and Clara has apparently been nudging the Doctor in the right direction for centuries.  I imagine that Clara's successor will be the one who somehow created all the Time Lords.

[Endeavour]

At this point, I am only staying with this for Capaldi. Moffat needs to step away. Of course that will never happen. They'll need to pry it away from his "clever" hands.

[Guest Accused Dingo]

Finally a brilliant episode. I loved it from start to finish but than these are the kinds of episodes i like. I don't hate Clara and i don't hate the idea that she has basically been The Doctors imaginary friend from the start. I think it is clever to integrate her even farther back into his psyche as the thing under his bed that made him afraid of the dark and being alone. Every companion this series has had a storyline i am finally enjoying hers.

[elle]

 Also, the Doctor originally wanted Clara to visit her childhood self?  Not like another Doctor was terrified of what might happen if Rose interfered in her childhood...

And when he did ask her to make that trip, he took off all the safety locks so she was able to jump to his timeline.  The first time she got distracted by the thought of Danny and went to his childhood, then when she was trying to FLY THE TARDIS (excuse me) she was distracted by the Doctor and therefore we get the scene in the barn.  (Anyone else remember when the TARDIS didn't like Clara?)

 

Speaking of that visit of Rose's to her past, I thought that the scene where Clara meets Rupert echoed the scene where Rose meets a young Mickey.  Rose at least realized the significance of that when she commented that she thought that Mic

 

So what punctured the hull of Orson's ship and nearly killed the doctor ?  I don't think it was nothing, and I doubt the Doctor did it to himself.

The Doctor unlocked the door and presumably the airlock as well, which is why he insisted that Clara get back into the TARDIS.  It was convenient to the plot that she complied.

[Llywela]

Totally agree on that front. It seemed weird she did that, when she said 'let me show you' (or whatever she said) I thought she was going to take him to the tardis. The kissing thing was strange, just because one future shows them together then it must be!

It wasn't even that Clara was shown to be with Danny in the future. She met his great-grandson who talked about having time travel in the family, and from there assumed that he must be talking about her. Because she's been on one date with his great-grandfather. I mean, it's a natural assumption to make, given that there aren't that many time travellers out there, but it's still a leap.

I miss the sense of purpose of the main character. The Doctor seems to be drifting more aimlessly than usual. He's apparently putting no effort in finding Gallifrey, mourning his dead wife, figuring out how to visit his best friends or finding out why the Silence spent so much time trying to kill him.

See, now those things don't bother me, because the Doctor has always drifted aimlessly - that's how he's lived his entire life, by choice. He likes it that way. And as for River, Amy and Rory - that part of his life is over. This is normal characterisation for him - he forms very strong attachments with his companions while they are with him, but once his timeline moves out of synch with theirs, he puts them behind him and he moves on. He compartmentalises. He always misses them when they go, but he looks forward not back. And regeneration makes the emotional break complete. The 2nd Doctor described it beautifully to a companion called Victoria, in an attempt to comfort her when she was mourning her father. Victoria assumed that the Doctor wouldn't remember his own family, being over 400 years old and therefore ancient (how little she knew!). But the Doctor said: "Oh yes, I can when I want to. And that's the point, really. I have to really want to, to bring them back in front of my eyes. The rest of the time they sleep in my mind, and I forget. And so will you. Oh yes, you will. You'll find there's so much else to think about. So remember, our lives are different to anybody else's. That's the exciting thing. There's nobody in the universe can do what we're doing."

 

River, Rory and Amy are part of the Doctor's past now, just like Donna, Martha, Rose, Jack, Mickey, Ace, Mel, Peri, Turlough, Tegan, Nyssa, Adric, Romana, Leela, Harry, Sarah, Jo, Liz, Jamie, Zoe, Victoria, Ben, Polly, Dodo, Steven, Vicki, Ian, Barbara, Susan, and everyone else he's ever known and travelled with and loved. Once they've gone, he compartmentalises, locks the memory of them away to sleep in a little box in his mind while he moves forward with his life, exploring the universe. His prolonged periods of grief after losing companions in the modern show has been rather out of character, in fact. River has been dead ever since they first met, he always knew his time with her would be limited. He knows that Rory and Amy had a full and happy life together after leaving him. He grieved for them for a time. But he's since regenerated and moved on. Their memory now sleeps in a compartment in his mind.

Some of the lines seemed over the top, both in content and acting.  It's like the writer got carried away with the prose and forgot how real people talk.  I think the show was trying too hard to create another iconic episode (like the Weeping Angels or the Silence episodes mentioned by others) and fell short.

 

The Doctor's original premise was flawed.  There is no such thing as a perfect predator or a perfect defense (certainly not the creatures in those pictures); therefore, there should be no such thing as a perfect hiding creature.

 

Another big problem was why would the Doctor focus now, out of all his long life/lives, on his fears of the creature in the dark?  There should've been some kind of trigger.

I agree about the lack of an inciting incident. It wasn't meeting Clara that triggered the memory - he's been travelling with her for too long already. There needed to be something to trigger the whole investigation, but there wasn't.

[ketose]

I agree with others that the episode was very derivative of earlier stuff (The Silence!  Utopia!)  Maybe it was the cannabilistic cat people who punctured the air shield?  And Clara making it to Gallifrey made no sense since it is either time locked or trapped in a painting or a bubble universe.  But if she somehow made it to Gallifrey, either she could hide ti from the Doctor so he doesn't realize she meddled in his childhood.  Or she could TELL HIM SHE FOUND A WAY FOR HIM TO RESCUE HIS PEOPLE!!!  You know, seeing as how that's his new quest since he saved Gallifrey from the Time War.  Also, the Doctor originally wanted Clara to visit her childhood self?  Not like another Doctor was terrified of what might happen if Rose interfered in her childhood...

 

 

 

Rose changed the timeline by bringing her father back to life. If we are to believe the alternate timeline, he would eventually create Earth's version of Cybermen because of it.

 

Last season, they kind of established that if Gallifrey comes back, every evil race in the universe will target it at once, so it seems to be on hold for now.

 

In some ways, this Doctor is the youngest of all, which seems to be the dichotomy Moffat was going for with a older man playing the Doctor. I think that may be why he's exploring one of his earliest nightmares, fear being everyone's companion. I'm still going to bet that the unexplained stuff (chalkboard, blanket boy) will come back to the Big Bad this season.

[ketose]

Of all the inconsistencies in this episode, breaking the time lock on Gallifrey isn't high on the list. I accept the fact that some idiot turning off the safeties could allow the TARDIS to wind up on Gallifrey in the past. I have to assume, however, that the Daleks did not have this same capability.

 

Going back to Utopia, it was established that the TARDIS can maintain time paradoxes, like the people of the end of time going back and changing the past and their own future. I think the Doctor would just never chose to go back on his own history because of what it could mean for him and why Clara ordered him not to look. That part I could also live with, although I doubt he will listen. He certainly didn't when Amy tried to make him leave in The Beast Below. Clara kind of messed with that, too by talking about fear making him kind.

[Maelstrom]

At this point, I am only staying with this for Capaldi. Moffat needs to step away. Of course that will never happen. They'll need to pry it away from his "clever" hands.

Same here. The Musketeers lost Cardinal Richelieu for Who, so I feel obligated to keep watching for Capaldi. But thanks to Moffatt's Moffatyness, it's going to be more of a chore than a pleasure.

[alias1]

Quote: Another big problem was why would the Doctor focus now, out of all his long life/lives, on his fears of the creature in the dark? There should've been some kind of trigger.

Quote: I agree about the lack of an inciting incident. It wasn't meeting Clara that triggered the memory - he's been travelling with her for too long already. There needed to be something to trigger the whole investigation, but there wasn't.

This was my biggest problem with the show. This fear came out of nowhere and it didn't even make sense. But Moffat (being the cleverest person in the room) made it make sense by having Clara be responsible for the fear in the first place. This actually might have worked except for the stupid little talk she gave him at the end. Moffat doesn't know when to stop.

The date was horrible. The forced kiss at the end was horrible. I thought Danny and Clara were going to have a nice relationship based on the earlier episode. But Moffat can't leave it alone. It all has to mean something.

I like Clara and I hope she isn't leaving, but if she is, the next companion will not be any better if Moffat is still in charge.  I hated the Amy saga and I liked Clara so much better, but I see Moffat is going down the same road.

Edited September 14, 2014 by SierraMist

[Guest Accused Dingo]

I kind of hate the entire idea of the Doctor being shadowed by one person that somehow guides him. I mean to me that kind of ruins the idea of the Doctor being this amazing alien that solves the universes problems with the help of companions not with the guidance hand of Clara.

 

 

I took it another way.  How many times has the Doctor been a driving force for Earth History?  I can think of one off the top of my head.  The Doctor and Donna blew up a volcano and destroyed a civilization to save the world.  Hell Donna Noble's whole storyline is basically turn left.  Life is often about choices, dumb luck....with a mix of destiny thrown in.  What if Clara's story is similar?  What if the irony of Clara is that that she has always been what has made the doctor....run?   We are watching a time travel story and those are my favorites because only in those can you meet the dude who you will marry when he is ten and give a toy soldier that will become a family air loom generations later.  

Edited September 14, 2014 by Accused Dingo

[ketose]

Clara is a big believer in fate from the whole leaf story about her parents. I'd think other companions would try to fight the idea that their history is spelled out for them, but Clara may embrace it.

 

With Clara and Amy, there are basically two special stories attached. Amy was exposed to the rift and was able to prevent the destruction of the TARDIS and bring back Rory, which actually ended up being a good season. Then there's the second arc where Amy and Rory had sex in the TARDIS and somehow conceived a Time Lord, which makes no sense.

 

Then there's Clara, who after a few adventures with the Doctor, decides to cast herself into the time stream to save the Doctor throughout his life. That story is over, so now they have to give her some kind of destiny with Danny Pink, which is leading up to another impossible plotline.

[tv-talk]

What if the irony of Clara is that that she has always been what has made the doctor....run?

 

 

That's exactly what Moffat is doing and it's absolutely the worst plot development is series history (just my opinion). I mean, he's basically not the Doctor anymore. Doing too much about his childhood is a big mistake to begin with and for Moffat to be the one doing it doesnt bode well. With Clara the Doctor has gone from being the smartest most capable creature in the universe (so to speak) to an emotionally stunted, aging man who needs his nursemaid to continually 'fix' him. I would say that ranks as the biggest departure from the overall framework of the character that there's been since the series began.

[Lugal]

At this point, I am only staying with this for Capaldi. Moffat needs to step away. Of course that will never happen. They'll need to pry it away from his "clever" hands.

Moffat once said (granted this was 20 years ago): "My memories of Doctor Who are based on bad television that I enjoyed at the time. It could get me really burned saying this, but Doctor Who is actually aimed at 11-year-olds. Don't overstress it, but it's true."  This is how he sees the show, or at least how he came into it.  There is a juvenile aspect to Moffat's Who that is kind of under the surface, in the whole feeling of: This is cool! Who cares if it doesn't make sence in the context of the show (or even the same episode).

 

It wasn't even that Clara was shown to be with Danny in the future. She met his great-grandson who talked about having time travel in the family, and from there assumed that he must be talking about her. Because she's been on one date with his great-grandfather. I mean, it's a natural assumption to make, given that there aren't that many time travellers out there, but it's still a leap.

 

The date was horrible. The forced kiss at the end was horrible. I thought Danny and Clara were going to have a nice relationship based on the earlier episode. But Moffat can't leave it alone. It all has to mean something.

Clara assumes she and Danny will end up together because she meet his (and presumably their) great-grandson, but she and Danny could just as easily have a rough relationship only lasting a few years with a child that Danny ends up raising.

[catrox14]

That's exactly what Moffat is doing and it's absolutely the worst plot development is series history (just my opinion). I mean, he's basically not the Doctor anymore. Doing too much about his childhood is a big mistake to begin with and for Moffat to be the one doing it doesnt bode well. With Clara the Doctor has gone from being the smartest most capable creature in the universe (so to speak) to an emotionally stunted, aging man who needs his nursemaid to continually 'fix' him. I would say that ranks as the biggest departure from the overall framework of the character that there's been since the series began.

 

And really, what kind of commentary is that on the state of older people in our society? I think it's gross and devalues the Doctor in an ugly and unnecessary way.  All the other companions were the Doctor's friends and helped him along his way, but he never stopped being The Doctor.  He never stopped being the one in charge of his situations even when they went sideways and he needed someone to pull him back. But he was generally not incompetent and was always actually the smartest person in the room. I find this notion that Twelve needs a caregiver really offensive.

[NeenerNeener]

 

Clara assumes she and Danny will end up together because she meet his (and presumably their) great-grandson, but she and Danny could just as easily have a rough relationship only lasting a few years with a child that Danny ends up raising.

 

 

Or the next companion could be Journey Blue and she and Danny could meet through The Doctor, marry and spawn.

Not likely, though.

Edited September 14, 2014 by NeenerNeener

[Sakura12]

It wasn't even that Clara was shown to be with Danny in the future. She met his great-grandson who talked about having time travel in the family, and from there assumed that he must be talking about her. Because she's been on one date with his great-grandfather. I mean, it's a natural assumption to make, given that there aren't that many time travellers out there, but it's still a leap.

 

It was more than that, Orson handed her the toy solider, Clara said it belongs to him, it's a family heirloom. He pretty much said, yes, that's why I'm keeping it in the family when handing it to her. That's when she realized that Orson wasn't only a decedent of Danny's, he was a decedent of her and Danny. The way he talked also made it seem like his great grandparents were together for some time for the family to hear all about their adventures in time and space. 

 

Then I suppose she figured they are fated to be together so they might as well get on with it. Clara's whole life is fate. She's born to save the Doctor. When she dies she's reborn to save him another version of him. Don't know if Moffat is going to end that cycle when she leaves or not. It probably won't matter much anyway since he just likes to rewrite his own stories whenever he feels like it. 

[ketose]

That's exactly what Moffat is doing and it's absolutely the worst plot development is series history (just my opinion). I mean, he's basically not the Doctor anymore. Doing too much about his childhood is a big mistake to begin with and for Moffat to be the one doing it doesnt bode well. With Clara the Doctor has gone from being the smartest most capable creature in the universe (so to speak) to an emotionally stunted, aging man who needs his nursemaid to continually 'fix' him. I would say that ranks as the biggest departure from the overall framework of the character that there's been since the series began.

Ten started this trend of the Doctor being some super being who was the guardian of the universe. Even Nine used the word clever too much, something the original Doctors never had to do. The Doctor is a renegade Time Lord who stole a TARDIS. He's more brash and intelligent than other Time Lords, but he was never all alone until this new series. At the same time, instead of being the eyes of the viewer, Clara is the brain of the Doctor.

 

I'm dealing with Twelve as being sort of a Merlin character. He looks old, but he is a new incarnation of the Doctor, having been given a new set of regenerations by the Time Lords. It seems to be churning up his oldest fears and memories.

[stopeslite]

 

There needed to be something to trigger the whole investigation, but there wasn't.

 

I think there was, but they were so focused on getting to the clever parts that it got glossed over. When he first gave Clara that big spiel about "what if we're never alone", she gave him a sharp glare and asked him how long he'd been traveling alone this time, and he shrugged her off. I think that was meant to indicate that he'd been flying around by himself for many years, and it was starting to get to him, and that's what brought about his hypothesis - it was like a lonely kid creating an imaginary friend. Goes right along with RTD/Moffat's anvil of "The Doctor should never be alone", because then bad things happen in his brain. He needs companions to keep him grounded, and he hadn't had one in awhile. 

[tv-talk]

I think it's gross and devalues the Doctor in an ugly and unnecessary way.

 

 

Well, Moffat was accused of being a misogynist. Perhaps he took it to heart and has decided that the Doctor should be a subservient and at times weak character so as to elevate a female companion? I dont know, but this is a really weird characterization of the Doctor.

 

But he was generally not incompetent and was always actually the smartest person in the room. I find this notion that Twelve needs a caregiver really offensive.

 

 

I mean was the resolution of last night's episode that the Doctor was scared of the dark? Like a 10yr old? After all that he's done and been through, what just happened is he went on a crazy-eyed almost unbalanced quest for something that didnt exist.....because he got scared as a child? My word.

[NCChic]

I'm In agreement with those that have stated that we've seen Clara's exit strategy come Christmas, if the rumors are true about her leaving.

I had really thought that Twelve and Clara would have some kind of chemistry (non-romantic of course), but I find myself struggling to see it. It's boiled down to Clara the Teacher with Twelve the newbie. If the companion is supposed to be the voice of the viewer, then either Moffat thinks we've already answered everything in regards to Doctor Who or he's playing a really unfunny joke.

I like Clara. Or I used to until these episodes with Capaldi. It's just not working. It really is too bad that we can never see Donna again, because I think Catherine Tate and Peter Capaldi would be hysterical together.

It's becoming a struggle to remember to watch the episode on its first airing.

[marceline]

I've never seen Classic Who so I've only been around since Nine but this is the first time that a regeneration has left me feeling like I'm watching a whole new show. Everything just feels different. The flirting is (thankfully) gone, the Doctor is COMPLETELY different in every way, they seem to be trying to reboot Clara, even the structure of the show feels different. It feels like Act One is the Doctor and Clara setting up a premise then the rest is two totally separate shows, one is "Doctor Who" and other is "The Clara Oswald Adventures."

Edited September 14, 2014 by marceline

[benteen]

That's exactly what Moffat is doing and it's absolutely the worst plot development is series history (just my opinion). I mean, he's basically not the Doctor anymore. Doing too much about his childhood is a big mistake to begin with and for Moffat to be the one doing it doesnt bode well. With Clara the Doctor has gone from being the smartest most capable creature in the universe (so to speak) to an emotionally stunted, aging man who needs his nursemaid to continually 'fix' him. I would say that ranks as the biggest departure from the overall framework of the character that there's been since the series began.

 

Yeah, I'm interested in the adventures of Doctor Who, not the adventures of the Doctor's far less interesting companion.

[supposebly]

It feel Moffat has a limited bag of tricks and ideas and we are seeing the end of it. The idea of being afraid of something that we can't quite see and the whole monster-under-the-bed thing. Been there, done that in the monster in the room that didn't exist in Amy's house, the clock thingies with Madame de Pompadour, the angels, the library, I think we had that with the boy and the doll house (I forget, I never rewatch that one), and I'm sure I'm forgetting some. Now it's tricks over substance or the semblance of logic or canon.

 

How did they end up on Gallifrey? Isn't it timelocked? Wouldn't that mean it's inaccessible in time? Why wouldn't she tell him? Why would they find a descendant at the end of the universe (if there was a reason I had stopped paying attention at that point because I was so annoyed because I felt I was watching a rerun of previous Moffat episodes), and btw., if I had been on that date, I would not go back, no person would and certainly it wouldn't end in a kiss.

 

Why was the Doctor even worrying about it all? That came completely out of nowhere. Maybe he has lost his mind and memory? That's all I can come up with. We are at episode 4 and this whole thing makes no sense, the episodes don't seem to fit together over a common theme, and by themselves, they're not at all enjoyable. I think we need a new showrunner.

 

 

I think there was, but they were so focused on getting to the clever parts that it got glossed over. When he first gave Clara that big spiel about "what if we're never alone", she gave him a sharp glare and asked him how long he'd been traveling alone this time, and he shrugged her off. I think that was meant to indicate that he'd been flying around by himself for many years, and it was starting to get to him, and that's what brought about his hypothesis - it was like a lonely kid creating an imaginary friend. Goes right along with RTD/Moffat's anvil of "The Doctor should never be alone", because then bad things happen in his brain. He needs companions to keep him grounded, and he hadn't had one in awhile.

 

Maybe I'm not clever enough but that was not at all clear to me. All this time traveling is fine but if it interferes with character consistency, it doesn't work.

Edited September 14, 2014 by supposebly

[Llywela]

Goes right along with RTD/Moffat's anvil of "The Doctor should never be alone", because then bad things happen in his brain. He needs companions to keep him grounded, and he hadn't had one in awhile. 

I've always disliked that tag, which is so completely not what Doctor Who and the Doctor-companion relationship ever was. It's something brought in for the modern show because of this currently trendy belief that quality telly has to be angsty. It wasn't enough to bring Doctor Who back. It had to be brought back with baggage. I find that one of the fastest ways to spot whether a person knows only the modern show or the classic show also is how they talk about the character of the Doctor. To NuWho only viewers, the Doctor is an angst-laden tragic hero with a dark history who needs a human companion with him to keep him on the straight and narrow. To Classic viewers, the Doctor is an eccentric time-travelling alien who loves exploration and adventure and likes to take a friend or two along to keep him company on his travels. The whole presentation of the character is completely different.

 

And, I have to be honest, I don't much like that Moffat keeps having the Doctor going off on his travels alone and then popping back years later to pick up with the same companion where he left off. I know why he does it - he likes to think he's leaving spaces for fanfic writers to fill. But he doesn't leave the kind of spaces that I, as a writer of fanfic, like to play with. It's subjective - I'm sure there are plenty of people out there who do. But to me, it just feels out of character that he'd go off on his own for such long swathes of time and not meet someone new and travel with them - Moff would argue that he might have, but if he had he would not have gone back for Amy and Rory or for Clara later, because his connection with them would have been broken. That's how it works. That's how it's always worked.

 

Meh. I'm tired of feeling negative about this show. I've loved it all my life. I just want it to be light-hearted fun - this obsession with injecting some kind of deep and meaningful connection into every episode, often at the expense of credibility and characterisation, is dragging me down.

[ketose]

One of the things that killed original Doctor Who was the cheapness of the sets and costumes. The BBC still doesn't have much of a budget, but computers can do wonders for little cost. Sadly, the programmers at BBC decided that higher budget American imports were intrinsically better in the late 80's. Sometimes the British guys in rubber suits or the women with elaborate wigs said some stupid dialogue, but the concepts and stories were actually pretty interesting and provocative. The Doctor with the ugliest coat was part of the longest and most introspective story arc of the series.

 

NuWho is becoming Buffy the Vampire Slayer. Overly strong female characters and season-long villains who are defeated in the 45 minute finale. Even the dialogue is banter-y, which Moffat tried to meta in Robot of Sherwood.

[buttersister]

Agree that, plot withstanding, Capaldi was clicking. Makes it tough to reconcile companion as caretaker as something he would sign up for. Awaiting Moffat leaving some of this by the side of the road and getting on with Doctor Who. (ETA: *sigh* I know, I'll be waiting a long time.)

I cringed at the mention of the Silence, so it better have been a shout out to Eleven & co. derailing their hiding ability.

Edited September 14, 2014 by buttersister

[benteen]

I think Moffat is more wrapped up in his own "cleverness" than he is in telling a good story.

[aisha1000]

I actually like Clara, I think she's quite she's probably one of my favourite companion since Rose and Donna although I thought Rory was fantastic.

While I understand people are finding it frustrating the one companion having so much influence over the doctors timeline, but I think we should remember that she only fixed what the Great Intelligence had changed. Also the doctor never realised her presence until Asylum of the Daleks and the christmas episode.

Even if she has guided the doctor, she seems to have guided him using what she learnt from the doctor himself.

[Llywela]

I think Moffat is more wrapped up in his own "cleverness" than he is in telling a good story.

And the thing is, he does tell good stories, most of the time - but he always has to push it just that little too far, add that final twist. He believes that bigger is always better. Me, I tend to believe that less is sometimes more.

 

My main feeling toward this season is frustration - it's so close to being so good, and yet.

 

I just don't get on with Moffat's showrunning style. I realise now that I never will.

[Terrafamilia]

This seems to have been a rather polarizing episode. The reviews at TV.com and A.V.Club are complimentary but apparently a lot of people don't see it that way at all. While I agree that there was the usual Moffat wobbliness I all found it to the best yet this season. Capaldi seems to have found his feet in the role (and he changed his clothes this ep!). I can see why some are bugged by Clara's role but her role has always been weird. Having her as a stay-at-home companion trying to balance her work/personal life and her adventurous time-jaunts strangely makes her more relatable to me (not that I am in the habit of going off on adventurous time-jaunts).

 

I think it is a little too easy to say that Clara has become the lynchpin in setting the course of the Doctor's whole life. It's much more of a time paradox than that. Like the "fear is a superpower" speech; Clara heard it from the Doctor, who heard it from Clara, who heard it from the Doctor, who heard it from Clara...etc., etc.. The whole episode is ultimately a loop and Clara is every bit the victim of, as well as a willing, albeit inadvertent, participant in it.

 

Far from being creepy and inappropriate, I thought Clara's reaction to young Rupert/Danny and young Doctor were entirely in character to her being a teacher with a love of kids.

[Terrafamilia]

I think it is a little too easy to say that Clara has become the lynchpin in setting the course of the Doctor's whole life.

Sheesh, I'm responding to myself.

Remember, the Doctor had run off to sleep in the barn to cry himself to sleep. He already had issues that would help set the course of his life before Clara got all looped up in it.

[benteen]

I actually like Clara, I think she's quite she's probably one of my favourite companion since Rose and Donna although I thought Rory was fantastic.

While I understand people are finding it frustrating the one companion having so much influence over the doctors timeline, but I think we should remember that she only fixed what the Great Intelligence had changed. Also the doctor never realised her presence until Asylum of the Daleks and the christmas episode.

Even if she has guided the doctor, she seems to have guided him using what she learnt from the doctor himself.

 

This is a fair point.  I didn't mind the Clara jumping into his timestream back in the Name of the Doctor because she was basically decontaminating what the Great Intelligence had done.  But I really disliked it here.  The companions have always had a very positive effect on the Doctor going back to the very first serial where Ian stops the Doctor from doing something we could never imagine him doing (it's been 50 years but I won't spoil it for people who haven't seen it).  But I prefer to think that the Doctor's reasons for initially leaving Gallifrey were his own and that one of his companions didn't do it for him.  It undermines the character.

 

As I've said, I'm mixed on the increased look at the Doctor's past.  I'd like to know more about it but at the same time I've appreciated how much mystery they've managed to maintain with it over the past 50 years.  I know RTD turned down the chance to do a Young Doctor series because he didn't want to reveal too much of the mystery (this led directly to the creation of the Sarah Jane Adventures).  I hope if we do get an extensive look at the Doctor's past, it's handled in the same way it was with James Bond in Skyfall.

 

The critics seem to be more positive about this episode (though IGN only gave it only a 7.1 out of 10) but the fan reaction seems to be more mixed.

Edited September 14, 2014 by benteen

[truther]

 

Having her as a stay-at-home companion trying to balance her work/personal life and her adventurous time-jaunts strangely makes her more relatable to me

See, for me it has the opposite effect.  Being the Doctor's companion is something you're either all-in for or not at all.  I can't relate to somebody who has the opportunity to travel virtually anywhere in time and space and decides to balance that with her personal life as though being the companion were some kind of work study job she got so she could afford tuition at school.  Whenever she uses the Tardis to get to a date on time or whatever, it's like a record needle scratching.  I want to see Donna Noble agape with wonder.  If it's not engaging enough for Clara to even devote her full attention -- if picking the right cocktail dress is more important -- then why should I bother watching?

[TexasGal]

Yes, this. This is a recurring problem in Moffat's Who - he sets up one thing, and then pulls the rug out from under it and tells you it was something different all along, without actually explaining away or undoing everything that had previously been set-up. So it feels like a cheat. Because it is a cheat.

 

 Moffat cheat? You mean, like killing off your main character on camera and then bragging about how clever you will be in having him not have died at all, but then never really explaining it and also talking about how silly it is to expect an explanation (coughSHERLOCKcough)? Never!

My favorite episodes are always the creepy ones, so I was really digging this one until we got the usual hand wave in the last 10 minutes and the whole thing was pointless. And agree that I don't understand why he suddenly fixated on the idea that there must be a perfectly hidden creature. Came out of nowhere for me.

[tv-talk]

I think it's a mistake to do a bunch on the Doctor's childhood, that's just a bad idea that will lessen the character no matter how it's done.

 

Cat's out of the bag now though, so I expect Clara will be seen changing baby Doctor's diapers after saving him from Missy who is in fact an evil schoolmarm from Gallifrey.

[Mr. Simpatico]

Not very good. Capaldi is still mesmerizing (I love the intensity he has in even throw away lines) and the most important reason to watch but it seems like the story ran out of gas (or the writer just forgot the point) half-way through. So the “shadow” in the bedspread in young Rupert's room was one of his fellow kids, I guess? I dunno. The show gave up. But hey, let's focus more on how Clara Oswald apparently planted lines in young William Harntell's (I assume it was he) head that he will then repeat in the 1960s. Oh, and meet her possible descendant, giving her an excuse to be with Danny (and eventually leave the show) even though we don't even know if they have anything in common.

 

Did anyone else find it creepy that Clara essentially groomed a couple of pre adolescent boys to feel attached to her by a lot of inappropriate touching near a bed and then the Tardis scrambled their memories into an odd dream/nightmare ? 

 

It did bother me. From the minute she heard the word Pink she should have left that boy alone and when she figured it was the Young Doctor she should have left THAT boy alone. The fact that she's basically influencing what seems to be the two most important men in her life at the moment into becoming the men that they are by implanting thoughts in them as kids creepy.

 

...but it just bothers me that Clara is doing it out of a sense of pre-destination rather than because she thinks they are right for each other. And that just doesn't seem like a solid enough basis for a relationship.

 

I like Jenna Coleman. I like the actor playing Danny Pink. I could see them having chemistry together. But the show gives us none of that. In two episodes we go from a meet-cute at work, a disasterous first date (which Clara basically has to do a redo on twice) and we go from that to snogging. Because apparently she finds out that Orson maybe-possibly is her descendant with Danny (although we don't know for sure)? This is how romances are developed? It's like the show wants us to see these two as a couple but doesn't want us to actually see how that happens (they could easily establish Danny/Clara dating off-screen when she's not with the Doctor) so we get Insta-couple! Thanks to destiny or some such.

 

River, Rory and Amy are part of the Doctor's past now, just like Donna, Martha, Rose, Jack, Mickey, Ace, Mel, Peri, Turlough, Tegan, Nyssa, Adric, Romana, Leela, Harry, Sarah, Jo, Liz, Jamie, Zoe, Victoria, Ben, Polly, Dodo, Steven, Vicki, Ian, Barbara, Susan, and everyone else he's ever known and travelled with and loved. Once they've gone, he compartmentalises, locks the memory of them away to sleep in a little box in his mind while he moves forward with his life, exploring the universe. …. Their memory now sleeps in a compartment in his mind.

 

That's how it used to be. Davies (the man who created 10 and the obession with Rose) even made a point of it in the Sara Jane Adventures with 11, Jo Grant and Sara Jane. Jo is telling the Doctor how she waited for a message from him that never came and he tells her about her life since she left him. She marvels that he kept track of her after all and he just says “No, I never look back. I can't”. It was only 10 (and I guess it was perfectly in character for him) who checked on all his former companions before he died but before then he never bothered. Sara Jane just looks on with a knowing look.

 

Moffat's Doctor by contrast will pick up, leave and return to pick up companions as if it was a matter of course. Why didn't the Doctor treat Susan (who he promised to return to and never did), or Jamie or Jo or Sara-Jane or Tegan or Peri (who's fate is still amorphous in canon) or Ace (who I would wager meant a lot more to the 7th Doctor than 12 and Clara Oswald) the way he treats Moffat's companions? It's Moffat's insistence that HIS companions are the most important ones that the Doctor ever had particularly in giving him a wife in River (ignoring the fact that the Doctor started the show as an elderly gent with a granddaughter so probably already had a wife previous) and now the Impossible Girl who has literally directed the Doctor in every incarnation and since he was boy does a disservice to the companions who have shared his life previously and then moved on (or died – poor Katarina who thought the Doctor was her God and died saving his life has not been brought up since Hartnell). I'd love to see River Song (so secure in her belief that she was so special to the Doctor) return and come face to face with 12 and notice he views her differently now but with Moffat it would probably be the same old tired quasi-romantic schtick and not take into account the new Doctor's personality.

 

It all boils down to Davies and now Moffat's (ramped up to eleven) theory that the Companion, being the audience surrogate, is the most important character in the show and should be the focus. Something that wasn't true until from the time Ian and Barbara left to NuWho started. Which is setting the show up for a fall because after Clara has altered the course of the Doctor's existence since the beginning how can the next companion be even MORE special?

Edited September 14, 2014 by Mr. Simpatico

[ketose]

Moffat's Doctor by contrast will pick up, leave and return to pick up companions as if it was a matter of course. Why didn't the Doctor treat Susan (who he promised to return to and never did), or Jamie or Jo or Sara-Jane or Tegan or Peri (who's fate is still amorphous in canon) or Ace (who I would wager meant a lot more to the 7th Doctor than 12 and Clara Oswald) the way he treats Moffat's companions? It's Moffat's insistence that HIS companions are the most important ones that the Doctor ever had particularly in giving him a wife in River (ignoring the fact that the Doctor started the show as an elderly gent with a granddaughter so probably already had a wife previous) and now the Impossible Girl who has literally directed the Doctor in every incarnation and since he was boy does a disservice to the companions who have shared his life previously and then moved on (or died – poor Katarina who thought the Doctor was her God and died saving his life has not been brought up since Hartnell). I'd love to see River Song (so secure in her belief that she was so special to the Doctor) return and come face to face with 12 and notice he views her differently now but with Moffat it would probably be the same old tired quasi-romantic schtick and not take into account the new Doctor's personality.

 

There's also Adric, who got a little more respect, but ultimately died failing to stop the ship that would eventually lead to all human life.

 

It all boils down to Davies and now Moffat's (ramped up to eleven) theory that the Companion, being the audience surrogate, is the most important character in the show and should be the focus. Something that wasn't true until from the time Ian and Barbara left to NuWho started. Which is setting the show up for a fall because after Clara has altered the course of the Doctor's existence since the beginning how can the next companion be even MORE special?

It's funny how a couple of decades have turned the companion for a Doctor translator to a savior. The show used to let you ask "what if I were picked to go on a wonderful adventure through time and space?" Now it's "What if I were the most important person in the universe?" The new Doctors have a big ego because companion egos are even bigger now. 

[benteen]

I've seen shows before that introduce love interests as the future spouse of a main/supporting character.  I've never liked that because it doesn't feel like the relationship has been earned.  Clara and Danny definitely hasn't been earned and it's moved along way too quickly.

[miles2go]

It seems to me that one of the more important aspects of the Doctor is that there is an aura of mystery about him. In the past, we have been given the occasional glimpse into his early life, but no more than that -- just enough to intrigue us.  In this regard, I can draw some comparisons with the Doctor and Sherlock Holmes (I mean the Holmes of the canon, not modern interpretations).  Doyle was very careful not to tell us too much about Holmes's past; again, just enough to intrigue us.  

 

I would think it a big mistake to get into too much detail of the Doctor's childhood and pre-"Unearthly Child" past, and I'm hoping Moffatt will not take that route. I really hated that scene with Clara and the boy-who-would-become-the-Doctor, and I'm afraid there may be more material of a similar nature to come.   Let's hope it ain't so!

[AudienceofOne]

It's like the show wants us to see these two as a couple but doesn't want us to actually see how that happens

 

 

I don't know why, but that cracked me up because... hello... that's every relationship Moffatt has ever written - ever. Take River and the Doctor. That was a total non-event. All this epic build up to her being a companion and his wife and, really, she was neither. It sort of all happened in Offscreenville. In the writer's dictionary under 'show, don't tell', I believe it actually has Moffatt's photo with the words 'chief offender' across it. 

 

Truth is, Moffatt can't write for shit. He can't write women and, if he can't write women, how can he write a relationship?

[marceline]

I think it's a mistake to do a bunch on the Doctor's childhood, that's just a bad idea that will lessen the character no matter how it's done.

 

I'm torn. On one hand, I'm really interested in Gallifrey. I'd love to know what kind of culture creates a being like The Doctor. On the other, seeing any character's childhood changes the way you perceive them and since in this case we're already dealing with new versions of everything, it seems like a bad idea.

 

I hope TPTB intend for this season to be a complete reset for the entire show because that's what it's turning out to be and it would be a disaster for that to be inadvertent.

Edited September 14, 2014 by marceline

[Pattycake2]

I thought the trip back to the Doctor's childhood was interesting.  It made me think about how the  British upperclass used to send their sons off to boarding school when they were seven.  Prince Philip and Prince Charles both attended Gordonstoun which emphasized spartan style military discipline, cold showers, punishments, etc. as well as emphasizing service and other more palatable ideas by todays standards in an effort to produce leaders.  A boy could be very unhappy.  Yes, I think Capaldi finally had more to do, however, as I mentioned above, I only found it interesting.  If it had been ten or eleven, I would have been crying along with that child.

[ketose]

Can I just pretend Clara was consoling the Master?