S05.E10: Bisquick

[Bort]

Quote

Lorraine makes a visit and Dot prepares biscuits.

Season finale

Airdate: January 16, 2024

[Spartan Girl]

Godammit Witt, you should have just shot him!

[LadyintheLoop]

You had to go in there by yourself?
 

[SoMuchTV]

25 minutes in; it can’t be wrapped up that easily!

[Suzysite]

Well, there's still Munch...

[AimingforYoko]

I'd like to think Lorraine gave Roy his "punishment" for Dot, but I'm pretty sure it was for Danish.

I love Munch just being completely befuddled by Dot. I can't imagine that's happened too many times in his long life. I have to admit, the ending kind of got me choked up.

R.I.P. Witt, you shoulda brought backup.

[bosawks]

You know he’s invited to Holiday dinner and now I want a Fargo Christmas just to see what Munchian presents he would give.

[Spartan Girl]

Yeah, I’m sorry, I can’t accept Witt being killed while Munch gets some weird biscuit absolution. I didn’t care enough about him to be moved. All I felt during that last bit was seriously disturbed.

Lorraine paying prisoners to make Roy’s long prison life agony was perfect though.

[MerBearStare]

They wrapped up the Roy/standoff plot faster than I thought they would. 

I was yelling at Witt like I was watching a horror movie. No one needs to gently put down a knife! They can just drop it. 

Sweet Wayne. Death is sitting like five feet from him and he's just not picking up on that at all. 

I know Munch was a controversial character, but frankly I think all shows need a 500-year-old sin eater character. If you're a broke atheist, sin eating is actually a pretty good job.

[SnarkAttack]

Pretty damn disappointed in this episode.

[Blakeston]

The conclusion with Munch was primarily a reference to the end of No Country For Old Men, where Javier Bardem's character visits Kelly McDonald's character, and says that she needs to pay her husband's debt (and offers her the chance to flip a coin). She tells him that he can simply make the choice not to kill her. I guess Dot made a better argument!

I really liked this season, but I don't like how they brushed aside Dot's manipulation of her husband, and her effectively sacrificing the life of the guy in the hospital. (I guess the cancer patient's death was no big deal, because he wasn't very pleasant?)

 

[Starchild]

16 minutes ago, MerBearStare said:

I was yelling at Witt like I was watching a horror movie. No one needs to gently put down a knife! They can just drop it. 

I was wondering why Roy was still there at all. Why did he hang around for someone to find him instead of just booking it down the tunnel as soon as he came through the door?

 

20 minutes ago, bosawks said:

You know he’s invited to Holiday dinner and now I want a Fargo Christmas just to see what Munchian presents he would give.

Maybe he lives there now! :)

 

OK that final dinner scene was art, it was beautiful. I literally teared up. I wonder if he can die now.

[Lonesome Rhodes]

Excellent decision to end the siege so quickly.  I was dreading a drawn out blizzard of bullets and explosions to show off cinematography chops.  

Witt had courage for days, but was blind to true evil.

I was not happy that the cover for the escape tunnel was closed when Roy reached it.  Then, I loved discovering why that was.

The Gator outcome with Dot worked, but my vengeful self wanted her to deny him.  My best self is very happy that Gator was not fated to be another Munch.

The FBI agents' denouement felt undeserved.  Not sure they were heroes.  They were good guys, to be sure.

The wink from Lorraine to Dot was everything.

Roy's murder of his D-I-L was also a great moment - followed quickly by an even better one!  

One of my favorite albums is a re-imagined rock musical of "War of the Worlds."  The Martian invaders cry, "Ooooooh-laaaaa!" throughout.  Love Much's name:  Oola Moonk.

I am trying to fully grasp the meaning(s) of "debt" that Hawley is trying to impart.  It's a great life question.  Well done, sir.

A  mountain of suspension of disbelief was required of me, but I cherished the final scenes with Moonk.  Redemption is probably the central life issue, imo.  The man richly deserved it.

Edited January 17 by Lonesome Rhodes

[TakomaSnark]

Amazing.

I did expect Witt to die but holy fork, the ending with Ole Munch in Dot's house... the whole thing was gold.

[Starchild]

I loved how he told his story to the child. In some ways he was child-like himself, so I think he felt a connection to her that let him tell a story he probably never told anyone else in full before that moment.

And she looked at him with such empathy, and drew it out of him without judgement. No one judged him. Dot forgave him and Wayne followed her lead the whole time.

This was Dot's story, but I was so glad they ended it on Munch's awed and tearful face as all that sin dropped away.

Edited January 17 by Starchild

[TakomaSnark]

Quote

You gotta to eat something made with love and joy. And be forgiven.

Incredible line.  I wil be so upset if this season doesn't dominate next Emmys. Juno, Spruell, JJL, Hamm.

Edited January 17 by TakomaSnark

[possibilities]

46 minutes ago, Lonesome Rhodes said:

Witt had courage for days, but was blind to true evil.

 

I know it was wrong for him to go on his own, and then to not shoot. But I was very upset that he was killed off. I realize I'm not being rational. But I also don't know why it was deemed better storytelling to kill him, than not. Even Gator got a relatively happy ending, comparatively speaking.

[sistermagpie]

12 minutes ago, possibilities said:

I know it was wrong for him to go on his own, and then to not shoot. But I was very upset that he was killed off. I realize I'm not being rational. But I also don't know why it was deemed better storytelling to kill him, than not. Even Gator got a relatively happy ending, comparatively speaking.

I admit, I didn't get why he had to die either. Which really stood out since the rest of the season felt really organic. I would never have predicted that last shot of Munch, but it was perfect. Those who cling to toxic masculinity shall have no biscuits.

Also, this is absolutely the best use of orange soda pop I've ever seen. When that bright orance bottle was thrust into frame I lost it. 

[thuganomics85]

Dammit, Witt!  You just had to go after Roy alone, didn't you?  And be so damn noble that you try to arrest him and let him talk instead of just putting a bullet in his head as soon as he starts spouting his typical bullshit.  I guess it's within the theme of this show: sometimes the purest characters end up letting their nobility be their downfall.  The man just wasn't cutout for this world.

At least Roy's downfall was satisfying.  Dot does get her revenge, but he doesn't die from the gunshot wound.  Instead of going out in a blaze of glory, he gets arrested thanks in part to his own flesh and blood turning on him.  And if he thinks he's going to be the king of prison, well Lorraine made sure that wasn't going to happen!  A fitting end for someone who thinks he is the king but is really just a little shit weasel in Don Draper's body!

Looks like Gator is also deservingly getting locked up as well, but at least he made some form of peace with Dot.  He still did horrible things and deserved this, but I can see why she would grant him that moment since he was also a victim of his dad in a lot of ways.  Of course, I chalk up a lot of it to Joe Keery doing his normal thing of being so damn likable it almost carries over to his characters (remember hearing Steve was initially suppose to just be an one-note bully in Stranger Things, but it got changed once they saw more of him.)

Indira really didn't get to do much at the end, but hopefully this will lead to Richa Moorjani getting even more roles going forward.

Figured Munch would rear his head at the end, but I wasn't it expecting it to be him trying to get his "pound of flesh" from Dot, only to have her talk him out of it and basically make him realize he doesn't have to continue this cycle of violence or keep being the Sin Eater.

All in all, I will put this safely in the middle of the pack.  Not as good as season one or two (the last one in particular is one of my favorite seasons of television ever), but comfortably ahead of season three and especially four.  My biggest issues were I didn't quite connect to the characters like I did in S1/S2 and it could be even more heavy-handed than norm: especially whenever it came to their messaging on gender dynamics and sexism.  But I still enjoyed the ride and the cast/acting was top notch: shoutout to Juno Temple, Jon Hamm, Joe Keery, and Jennifer Jason Leigh especially. 

Curious to see if we get another season and see what combination of recognizable stars, familiar character actors, comedians, and out of left field castings we get this go around.  First thoughts: with Barry now done, I can see Bill Hader being an interesting choice for another season.  Really, any of the cast from that show.  Or how about someone like Walton Goggins?  Or Tatiana Maslany or Aubrey Plaza?  Or maybe Sarah Snook and Matthew MacFayden can follow Kieran Culkin and be other Succession actors to appear?!  The possibilities are endless!

[Armchair Critic]

🎵 "Taste the biscuit. Taste the goodness of the biscuit"  🎶

 

I'll show myself out....

[Spartan Girl]

6 hours ago, Blakeston said:

I really liked this season, but I don't like how they brushed aside Dot's manipulation of her husband, and her effectively sacrificing the life of the guy in the hospital. (I guess the cancer patient's death was no big deal, because he wasn't very pleasant?)

Thank you, I’m glad I’m not the only one bothered by that. It’s like how the season 3 was trying to get us to root for Nikki, glossing over the fact that it was her leading Ray by the nose and egging him on that led to his death.

Was Noah Hawley trying to overcompensate for his questionable portrayal of non-cop female characters in the past this season?

[Fake Jan Brady]

I loved the episode but I'm still bothered by the revelation that Dot [of all people!] didn't attend Witt's funeral or even thought to ask about his family details for an entire year.

The fact that he had a cat named Lucky was just salt in the wound.

[bosawks]

Munch becoming a sin eater because of men in power using food as control and enticement coupled with Munch being healed by a mother inviting him to not only break bread with a family but to help make the bread that will feed the family was incredible.

Well done show, well done.

[Spartan Girl]

7 hours ago, possibilities said:

But I also don't know why it was deemed better storytelling to kill him, than not.

 

7 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

I admit, I didn't get why he had to die either.

I have sneaking, cynical suspicion that it’s the old “Black Guy Dies” trope. Someone a few weeks ago correctly called out that POC have never fared well on this show—I didn’t watch season 4 so I have no idea what happened there—and it looks like they were right. Indira made it out okay but her happy ending  was basically becoming Lorraine’s assistant. Make of that what you will.

[Starchild]

49 minutes ago, Fake Jan Brady said:

I loved the episode but I'm still bothered by the revelation that Dot [of all people!] didn't attend Witt's funeral or even thought to ask about his family details for an entire year.

The fact that he had a cat named Lucky was just salt in the wound.

I chalk that up to Dot being heavily traumatized and needing to heal immediately after the events, and then being busy as a star FBI witness for the trials of Roy and Gator. But especially that first part.

In fact, when they were showing Dot's face on the ride home, the trauma was obvious. When the driver said "Almost home" and you saw the conflict on her face. Mentally she was still back on the ranch, but knew she couldn't bring the worst of this back to her family, so she was struggling to transition out of the darkness and back to the light as fast as she could. For Wayne and Scottie. Silently.

It was amazing to watch.

Edited January 17 by Starchild

[Dev F]

11 hours ago, Blakeston said:

The conclusion with Munch was primarily a reference to the end of No Country For Old Men, where Javier Bardem's character visits Kelly McDonald's character, and says that she needs to pay her husband's debt (and offers her the chance to flip a coin). She tells him that he can simply make the choice not to kill her. I guess Dot made a better argument!

That scene in No Country for Old Men was the first thing I thought of, too—but for me it just reinforced my growing realization this season that I much prefer the Coen brothers' take on this sort of material to Noah Hawley's take in the last three seasons or so.

In No Country, Carla Jean stands up to the spooky murderer come to collect her debt the same way Dot does. But, crucially, part of the way she does that is by puncturing his air of possibly supernatural malevolence. He tries to get her to go along with the self-important coin-flip ritual he's used throughout the film to guide his killings, but she dismisses the whole idea: "The coin don't have no say. It's just you." Possibly at the cost of her life, she refuses to validate the idea that he's some agent of divine destiny. And her skepticism is quickly validated: as he leaves her house, he's wounded in a car accident that under any normal understanding is completely random, but by the murderer's own standards is an indictment of him: "If the road you followed brought you to this, of what use was the road?"

The first couple seasons of Fargo were in keeping with that more existential perspective. Season 1 ended with Malvo, the self-appointed devil figure, being gunned down like a normal man. Season 2 had Hanzee, this unflappable specter of vengeance, turning himself into just another crime boss whose empire eventually gets washed into the sea. But in more recent years we've gotten these figures like Ole Munch or V. M. Varga whose supernatural mien is never deflated. Indeed, Munch gets a redemption arc based around the firsthand confirmation that he actually is some sort of immortal sin eater. His mien is not just unpunctured in the end, it's inflated!

Now, this kind of heavy-handed magical realism is a valid form of storytelling, of course, but as I mentioned in the discussion for the episode "Linda," I'm starting to realize how far it takes the series from what I love about the Coen brothers' source material. As I said there, the Coens have a neo-noir sensibility in which the punishment for bad behavior is the inescapable logic of unintended consequences: The road you followed brought you to this. But Hawley's perspective seems to rely too obviously on external intervention—either supernatural influence or just the heavy hand of the writer—to mete out punishment and convey meaning. And that changes the mode of the storytelling from neo-noir to morality play: Be good or the boogey man will eat you. And that's really not what I'm looking for in a Coen pastiche series.

And I'm certainly not saying I needed for the episode to end with Dot being murdered like Carla Jean. But I would've much preferred an ending in which part of Munch's redemption involved him accepting the fact that he's just some guy, not an ageless symbol of humankind's debt burden. Early on, I theorized that his sin-eater backstory was meant to be symbolic—that, as a hit man and fixer, his job centers around taking on the burden of other people's sins, and it's by framing this as a sacrosanct transaction that he's able to compartmentalize the violence and greed that actually motivates him. I would've been much more interested in a story arc along those lines: Munch as a guy who mistakenly thinks of himself as an incorruptible sin eater, but in his final confrontation with Dot and her family, he's able to shed that mask and make some sort of peace with who he really is and what really motivates him. Then it's a story about a character and not the Living Embodiment of Our Debt Burden, y'know?

9 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

My biggest issues were I didn't quite connect to the characters like I did in S1/S2 and it could be even more heavy-handed than norm: especially whenever it came to their messaging on gender dynamics and sexism.

Yeah, the sex and gender stuff ended up being pretty much a road to nowhere. Scotty is mildly tomboyish for a few episodes, and Munch randomly wears a kilt that people will occasionally label a skirt, but they don't amount to much or play off each other in a particularly interesting way. By the time Scotty is peeping sweetly at Munch in her pastel shirt and sparkly nails, it's not like she represents a more positive model of masculinity for him to follow or anything like that.

Edited January 17 by Dev F

[iMonrey]

I'm mostly happy with this ending, although I was yelling at Witt to stay out of the tunnel right along with everyone else.

I'm not clear on what Gator went to jail for, they don't know he killed the old lady Munch was living with, but I assume everyone on the ranch was sent to jail for being accessories to Dot's kidnapping among other crimes associated with the standoff. Plus whatever the FBI had on Roy.

I'm really torn about Munch in general. On the one hand, he's the very type of character that kept me from liking the first three seasons - so much so I didn't even bother watching the fourth and only gave this season a shot because of the dearth of content. This season had a strong storyline with Dot, Lorraine, Roy and Indira. I always felt like Munch was an unnecessary ingredient that didn't fit.

But his final scenes with the Lyon family somehow worked for me. I see the obvious parallels between his story and Dot's. It's almost a little too on the nose, but it was well written and Wayne and Scotty gave it just the right levity to pull it off. 

I also liked that they wrapped up the stuff at the ranch and got Dot back home within the first hour to really give that ending enough time to work. If they'd tried to shove it all into the last five minutes it wouldn't have. It was weird and not something I would normally like, but they did it so well I did.

This is the only season of Fargo I really, really liked, and I attribute that mostly to the excellent cast. Juno Temple was just so much fun in this role, Jennifer Jason Leigh was chewing the scenery right and left and dammit, Jon Hamm can do no wrong, even playing a bastard as awful as Roy. Top that off with Joe Keery, Lamorne Morris and Richa Moorjani and you've got one helluva watchable show.

[DMK]

I too was wondering what was going to fill time for the last half of the episode when the ranch standoff ended so quickly.

For one, I loved Lorraine essentially bribing three cell blocks to torture Roy. I cheered when Dot plugged him in the gut and for poor, hapless Whit’s sake wish that she’d finished him off, but Lorraine’s engineered justice is a more fitting end for such a heinous man. And right at the end of the scene, we finally saw him looking rattled and scared.

The final scene with Munch and Dot’s family was tense as hell because I kept waiting for all hell to break loose, but it never did, with Munch spending a lot of the time looking completely baffled — I lost it when Scottie pointed out the cup measurement and he thanked her. And that smile at the end was so freaky.

[Tom Holmberg]

13 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

Godammit Witt, you should have just shot him!

Godammit, Dot, you should have finished him off when you had him down!

[Crashcourse]

I checked in on this last episode just to see how it ended.  Overall, I thought it was a meh season.

I'd never seen or heard of Juno Temple before this show and didn't like her because I thought she was too "squirrely" and creepy.  I wish they had chosen a better lead actress.

If Witt was supposed to die, I wish it had been in a hail of bullets instead of stupidly standing there in front of Roy and not shooting him.  

Wayne is too stupid to live, letting a weird stranger into the house.  It wouldn't surprise me if he wound up accidently dead due to some shenanigans Dot pulls off against someone else.   

I wound up liking Lorraine out of all the characters.  Still didn't see the need for sin eater Munch.

The overdone Minnesota accents drove me crazy, especially from the female officer and Dot.  When they were talking at Witt's gravesite, I had to press the mute button.  

[Bannon]

1 hour ago, Dev F said:

That scene in No Country for Old Men was the first thing I thought of, too—but for me it just reinforced my growing realization this season that I much prefer the Coen brothers' take on this sort of material to Noah Hawley's take in the last three seasons or so.

In No Country, Carla Jean stands up to the spooky murderer come to collect her debt the same way Dot does. But, crucially, part of the way she does that is by puncturing his air of possibly supernatural malevolence. He tries to get her to go along with the self-important coin-flip ritual he's used throughout the film to guide his killings, but she dismisses the whole idea: "The coin don't have no say. It's just you." Possibly at the cost of her life, she refuses to validate the idea that he's some agent of divine destiny. And her skepticism is quickly validated: as he leaves her house, he's wounded in a car accident that under any normal understanding is completely random, but by the murderer's own standards is an indictment of him: "If the road you followed brought you to this, of what use was the road?"

The first couple seasons of Fargo were in keeping with that more existential perspective. Season 1 ended with Malvo, the self-appointed devil figure, being gunned down like a normal man. Season 2 had Hanzee, this unflappable specter of vengeance, turning himself into just another crime boss whose empire eventually gets washed into the sea. But in more recent years we've gotten these figures like Ole Munch or V. M. Varga whose supernatural mien is never deflated. Indeed, Munch gets a redemption arc based around the firsthand confirmation that he actually is some sort of immortal sin eater. His mien is not just unpunctured in the end, it's inflated!

Now, this kind of heavy-handed magical realism is a valid form of storytelling, of course, but as I mentioned in the discussion for the episode "Linda," I'm starting to realize how far it takes the series from what I love about the Coen brothers' source material. As I said there, the Coens have a neo-noir sensibility in which the punishment for bad behavior is the inescapable logic of unintended consequences: The road you followed brought you to this. But Hawley's perspective seems to rely too obviously on external intervention—either supernatural influence or just the heavy hand of the writer—to mete out punishment and convey meaning. And that changes the mode of the storytelling from neo-noir to morality play: Be good or the boogey man will eat you. And that's really not what I'm looking for in a Coen pastiche series.

 

1 hour ago, Dev F said:

 

I also prefer the Coen brothers take on such themes, but I still liked this quite a bit, no doubt in good measure due to the acting being so uniformly great. As I stated in another thread, I've met self-made midwestern tycoon women like Lorraine, and am astounded that JJL just nailed that real-life character, right down to the self-designed accent! Really astonishing stuff, and Temple, Hamm, and the others were on the same level. Bravo! I'll also say that even if I find some fault in the storytelling, it's wonderful to have a show like this with real ambition.

Finally, how often do you get a finale that takes the time to accurately observe that competently crafted bankruptcy law is critical to a well-functioning society!

[Raja]

26 minutes ago, Tom Holmberg said:

Godammit, Dot, you should have finished him off when you had him down!

With Dot limping towards Roy cocking her rifle was part Terminator and part horror movie for Roy the FBI SWAT team getting in the way lead to the western trope that getting gut shot was worse than a clean  kill. Until Trooper Farr didn't shoot.

[Tom Holmberg]

56 minutes ago, DMK said:

The final scene with Munch and Dot’s family was tense as hell because I kept waiting for all hell to break loose, but it never did, with Munch spending a lot of the time looking completely baffled — I lost it when Scottie pointed out the cup measurement and he thanked her. And that smile at the end was so freaky.

Minnesota nice wins again!

[LadyintheLoop]

Quote

I'm not clear on what Gator went to jail for[.]

He assumed he was going to jail but we never saw it. A newly blinded prisoner would have been a lot of trouble for the system, and he would have gotten some kind of a deal for testifying against Roy.  

[sistermagpie]

5 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

 

I have sneaking, cynical suspicion that it’s the old “Black Guy Dies” trope. Someone a few weeks ago correctly called out that POC have never fared well on this show—I didn’t watch season 4 so I have no idea what happened there—and it looks like they were right. Indira made it out okay but her happy ending  was basically becoming Lorraine’s assistant. Make of that what you will.

Yes, when it was happening I thought yet another reason they shouldn't have gone there is why on earth do you need to kill the one black person in the large cast? That alone is reason to just let him go.

Quote

The first couple seasons of Fargo were in keeping with that more existential perspective. Season 1 ended with Malvo, the self-appointed devil figure, being gunned down like a normal man. Season 2 had Hanzee, this unflappable specter of vengeance, turning himself into just another crime boss whose empire eventually gets washed into the sea. But in more recent years we've gotten these figures like Ole Munch or V. M. Varga whose supernatural mien is never deflated. Indeed, Munch gets a redemption arc based around the firsthand confirmation that he actually is some sort of immortal sin eater. His mien is not just unpunctured in the end, it's inflated!

True, but for this story it seemed more fitting for him to really be that guy, because it wasn't a story about somebody having to realize that. Dot was identifying with just that aspect of him as the sin eater needing healing rather than someone doing evil they needed to take responsibility for.

2 hours ago, Dev F said:

Yeah, the sex and gender stuff ended up being pretty much a road to nowhere. Scotty is mildly tomboyish for a few episodes, and Munch randomly wears a kilt that people will occasionally label a skirt, but they don't amount to much or play off each other in a particularly interesting way. By the time Scotty is peeping sweetly at Munch in her pastel shirt and sparkly nails, it's not like she represents a more positive model of masculinity for him to follow or anything like that.

I've seen other comments that agree with this and from the start it seemed like it was exaggerating what we were seeing in Scotty. Like I remember one reviewer claiming she was bringing in trans issues when she's always just been a girl who uses she pronouns and gender-wise presents as however she wants on any particular day. (Linking tomboys to trans men is a false anti-trans TERF talking point, in my experience.) She's intentionally a mixture of all sorts of outward symbols because she's being brought up in a home that doesn't require gender roles to be either one way or the other. Mildly tomboyish at times probably represents more girls and challenges gender norms differently than anything traditionally boyish meaning she's a boy.

Lorraine and Roy are both bothered by these aspects of Scotty, because they both, even in the end, have internalized more traditional gender roles. But Lorraine wasn't so far gone as to be unable to embrace her role as a mother or show love--unlike Roy, Mr. Toxic Masculinity.

That TM stuff was played out pretty explicitly with Roy and everyone in his world, especially Gator. Munch didn't need to learn a better way to be a man, exactly, the way Gator did. He was never trying to prove himself that way. But he did need to question the traditional sort-of male value system he'd been given, that considered a strict formula he called justice over compassion. It wasn't his supernatural state that was in his head, but the hopelessly final interpretation he had of it.

Edited January 17 by sistermagpie

[cdnalor]

I half expected Munch to turn to dust like some 500-year-old vampire when he bit into the biscuit.  I'm not sure I like having supernatural elements intruding into what I expect to be a noir-ish crime story but I suppose we can hand-wave Munch's backstory as a delusion of the character.

Quite satisfied with Tillman's comeuppance via Lorraine's manipulations.  An eye-for-an-eye type punishment is fitting for that Bible freak.

[Raja]

And to the end Ole Munch was described as the guy in a skirt, but not to his face where everyone saw nothing in the strange guy

[FoundTime]

13 hours ago, Starchild said:

I loved how he told his story to the child. In some ways he was child-like himself, so I think he felt a connection to her that let him tell a story he probably never told anyone else in full before that moment.

And she looked at him with such empathy, and drew it out of him without judgement. No one judged him. Dot forgave him and Wayne followed her lead the whole time.

This was Dot's story, but I was so glad they ended it on Munch's awed and tearful face as all that sin dropped away.

Yes, the softness in Scotty's eyes and the openness in her face. So beautiful.

The Christian allusions in the final shots were so heavy that they might have been anvilicious in a weaker series. Dot literally extending a piece of bread "made with love and joy" and inviting Munch to be forgiven, and then the beatific smile of transformation on his face.

I found this to be one of the stronger seasons; I would put it in the top two or three. Casting, cinematography, and music do a lot of the heavy lifting in this show, along with a solid script, and it was all there. This season was worth the wait for me, and I actually respect the hell out of Noah Hawley for waiting to do a new season until he has something to say.

[possibilities]

I think it was Lorraine who made an issue of Scotty's attire, when she pretended not to see her granddaughter in the very beginning of the season, at the photoshoot. I liked that Lorraine's issue was totally made light of by everyone else in the scene, and nobody got traumatized or intimidated... and Lorraine let it go. I don't think anybody mentioned it since then, as I recall. To me, that is a liberatory portrayal, as is the way that the only person who made an issue of Munch's kilt was Roy, and it's not like the show held Roy up as any kind of role model.

In fact, the parallels between Lorraine and Roy ran through the entire show, with this issue being actually in my mind the least of it. Lorraine was ultimately held up as a hero and Roy as a villain, but both of them were people who felt they were above the law, and considered themselves the final arbiters of both taste and morality. I suppose one reading would be that the show is saying that if you have power, use it for good and not for evil. Another is: the world is structurally unjust, so that's why we need vigilantes. But another is: Don't get too bothered by the existence of oligarchs, just hope you can get on their good side (Indira, Dot) because that's the ticket.

I have mixed feelings about Lorraine's arrangement to torment Roy in prison. I also have mixed feelings about her billionaire status being what brought the SWAT team/FBI to save Dot. I would have enjoyed it more if Dot had saved herself, or if Witt and Indira and maybe with Wayne somehow had helped her, or Dot and Munch alone had pulled it off, or SOMETHING other than the billionaire deus ex machina.

However, I'm ambivalent about my preference for seeing the above, because it's more realistic that it's the person with a crapton of money and thus connections, who is able to mobilize and "save the day"-- and underscores how much more the odds are against you-- even if you are a relentless, smart, creative, fearless, and determined scrappy person like Dot.

But the way they played it did kind of wind up glorifying Lorraine and her privilege, rather than sticking to the narrative that it's structural injustice and thus wrong.

Also, I prefer Dot's forgiveness narrative-- which was not only a self-serving attempt to save her and her family from Munch, because she also showed it toward Gator, who had nothing left to give her.

Lorraine's "I can one up you at your own game and mete out extrajudicial hell because you deserve that" is satisfying in a way. I'm not going to pretend I don't appreciate it on one level. But... like I said, I'm ambivalent. I want the smug wiped off Roy's face. But I am not sure I want what the show is selling, either, in the sense that torture and vigilante oligarchy are the hell-yes we all need.

[Maire]

30 minutes ago, FoundTime said:

Yes, the softness in Scotty's eyes and the openness in her face. So beautiful.

I could feel it through the screen! No wonder Ole Munch was healed. So glad there was no more violence.

Of course I was sad to see Witt die but overall loved the episode. Most everyone got what they deserved but I may never look at Jon Hamm the same ever again.

[sistermagpie]

18 minutes ago, possibilities said:

I think it was Lorraine who made an issue of Scotty's attire, when she pretended not to see her granddaughter in the very beginning of the season, at the photoshoot. I liked that Lorraine's issue was totally made light of by everyone else in the scene, and nobody got traumatized or intimidated... and Lorraine let it go. I don't think anybody mentioned it since then, as I recall. To me, that is a liberatory portrayal, as is the way that the only person who made an issue of Munch's kilt was Roy, and it's not like the show held Roy up as any kind of role model.

 

Right, and Roy also made a comment when he met Scotty about her having a boy's name. The show did seem to be explicitly saying that Roy and Lorraine spoke the same language. Lorraine was better, I think, because she was able to show affection and Roy wasn't. And of course, she wasn't as gender essentialist as Roy because she honestly made room for herself as a woman leader, Wayne as a sweet, nurturing man, Scotty in her tux and Dot as a tiger like herself. The fact that she was able to be "our" monster in getting back at Roy was undeniably satisfying, but it didn't change that she saw the world similarly to how he did, wanting the "right" people (iow, themselves) with the power to do what they wanted, meting out personal vengeance and justice. And both supported Trump and everything he stood for.

In the end, I'm not quite sure exactly where the show came down on Lorraine. It acknowledged that ultimately Lorraine was the one who was willing to give to Roy exactly what he meted out to others because they operated on the same lower level. Lorraine was the person who beat the men at their own game by playing the game better than they did with the goods to back it up. But Dot and other characters were on a higher level in questioning that system. Lorraine could beat Roy, but not Munch. Dot could beat both.

[Raja]

19 minutes ago, Maire said:

I could feel it through the screen! No wonder Ole Munch was healed. So glad there was no more violence.

Of course I was sad to see Witt die but overall loved the episode. Most everyone got what they deserved but I may never look at Jon Hamm the same ever again.

In the end Witt had a career which called for the tiger but it failed to appear twice 

[peeayebee]

15 hours ago, AimingforYoko said:

I love Munch just being completely befuddled by Dot. I can't imagine that's happened too many times in his long life. I have to admit, the ending kind of got me choked up.

Yes, I teared up as well. 

That whole final scene was so beautiful and moving. AND funny! I would have watched a whole hour of Wayne talking to Munch Moonk. Everything in their interaction was entertaining in every way.

15 hours ago, MerBearStare said:

 I was yelling at Witt like I was watching a horror movie. No one needs to gently put down a knife! They can just drop it. 

Like everyone else, I was so frustrated with Witt in this scene. Heck, the two of them were close enough that Witt could have just shot him in the leg. 

I was very disappointed that Witt died, and I don't understand why the show went that way. When he sunk to the ground, I thought, "Oh no, he's dead." Then as Roy left, I thought we saw Witt breathing. Then later the agent shook her head at Dot, indicating that Witt was dead. And then we see Witt being strapped onto that orange carrier thing, and I thought, "No, he's alive!" So, yeah, I went on my little rollercoaster.

I don't think the show killed off Witt because he was black. Thruout this season we've seen Witt as competent and good and smart, but all those qualities were no match for pure evil. Maybe that was why he died. 

15 hours ago, Starchild said:

I was wondering why Roy was still there at all. Why did he hang around for someone to find him instead of just booking it down the tunnel as soon as he came through the door?

Good question. Maybe he thought Dot would somehow follow him, or 'Munch,' since Roy was still worried Munch was around and after him. So -- and yes I am reallllly struggling to justify this plot point -- he was wounded and dripping blood all the way to the dugout. Perhaps he heard someone coming after him and so hid in order to attack, knowing he couldn't outrun whoever was behind him.

Quote

Maybe he lives there now! :)

Excellent!

 

14 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Those who cling to toxic masculinity shall have no biscuits.

Well said! :D

13 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

Curious to see if we get another season and see what combination of recognizable stars, familiar character actors, comedians, and out of left field castings we get this go around.  First thoughts: with Barry now done, I can see Bill Hader being an interesting choice for another season.  Really, any of the cast from that show.  Or how about someone like Walton Goggins?  Or Tatiana Maslany or Aubrey Plaza?  Or maybe Sarah Snook and Matthew MacFayden can follow Kieran Culkin and be other Succession actors to appear?!  The possibilities are endless!

I love these casting suggestions. I also hope for another season.

3 hours ago, iMonrey said:

I'm not clear on what Gator went to jail for, they don't know he killed the old lady Munch was living with

As someone posted, maybe Gator didn't go to jail, but I can see him confessing to the murder. He was so broken. It was sad and pitiful seeing him struggling to find his way, whimpering all the time. He knew he had done horrible things.

This probably wasn't intentional, but seeing Gator blindfolded, walking with his arms stretched out, made me think of Roy when he was looking for Dot on the ranch, saying, "Marco..." 

Loved when Gator asked Dot if she really saw his mom. "No, hon. I thought I did. But she was just a beautiful angel in a dream."

Roy was the worse kind of person, but I have to say it was satisfying to see him slit the throat of his father-in-law. "Take your dentures out so I don't break 'em," cracked me up.

The scene with Lorraine and Dot was another satisfying moment. Lorraine saying, "Shot him in the stomach, they say, which… that's my girl," followed by Dot embracing her, and Lorraine kinda sorta hugging her back, with the standard "There there," was great. And the wink.

Like possibilities, I'm not sure how I feel about Lorraine triumphing over Roy because of her power and wealth, her power BECAUSE of wealth. Satisfying for viewers, but an unpleasant reminder of how society works. "Yay! --- Wait a minute..." 

But the best part of the ep was the end. Kindness ultimately won. Kindness and love and joy heal and give hope. I doubt that Moonk was ever shown any kindness in his life.

Edited January 17 by peeayebee
'Ever' not 'never'

[tennisgurl]

Of all the ways I expected this season to end, an immortal soul eater crying over a biscuit is not what I would have guessed. I was surprised that the big shootout ended so quickly without a ton of bloodshed, but I think its because that's not what this season was about. Everything coming back to a tasty biscuit made with love and learning to love yourself is a perfect way to end the season, it feels very Fargo. One of the biggest themes of the whole franchise is finding joy in the little things and those simple joys being the best weapons against life's darkness, it felt like a perfect ending. Dot and her family showed him so much kindness, so much empathy, no wonder Munch burst into tears, probably for the first time in hundreds of years, finally able to put down those sins and just drink some pop. 

What do you bet that Munch is in next years Christmas picture? 

Not at all surprised that Roy always had an escape hatch and was going to leave the rest of his guys and his own family behind if things didn't go his way during the standoff. This is exactly the kind of ending I wanted for him, no more kingdom, no grand destiny, not even going out like a martyr for the "cause", he's going to spend his life as just another nameless prisoner who's going to be picked on by the rest of the inmates. Getting the eye for an eye treatment after all of his yammering on about the bible is delicious karma. 

I'm glad that Gator and Dot had a nice moment, I have no idea what happens next for him, going to jail recently blinded with his whole life gone doesn't sound like a great prospect, but at least he has some homemade cookies to look forward to. Maybe he wont get as harsh of a sentence since he's testifying against his dad and Dot might put in a good word, he has done a lot of awful things and deserves to face the consequences, but there is something so sad about him, someone who was once a sweet little kid who was corrupted by his abusive father, it still makes me feel for him and that little kid he was. He strikes me as more pathetic and broken than actually evil.

Overall I really liked this season, I would probably mark it as my second favorite season after season two. The acting, the directing, the characters, the themes, we had so much to chew on here. It had some flaws, the biggest one being how underused Indira and Witt were. At least Indira got a decent ending, poor Witt dying just seemed so random and mean. Everything else this season has felt so smooth and natural except for Witt randomly being killed by Roy after he went off to find him on his own. I mean, it doesn't really look great to put your only two major actors of color on the backburner for the whole season and kill one of them off in what seems like an afterthought in the finale. I also found a lot of the gender and sexism stuff to be way too heavy handed for my liking. Overall I thought that focusing this season so much on domestic abuse was a good idea and basically handled well, but there were so many scenes with Roy where I was like "oh my God, we get it! Sexism is super bad!" when we could have been doing more with characters like Witt and Indira. But in general this was a really great season, a real return to form after the disappointment of last season. 

Edited January 17 by tennisgurl

[UsernameFatigue]

Loved the season, and the ending at the Lyon home. 

Like others, I was shouting at Witt for going after Roy by himself. It was obvious when that happened that he was going to die. I'm glad that at least Indira adopted Lucky.

What I didn't understand is why Witt's tombstone said "Beloved Brother", not "Beloved Son and Brother" since Indira said that Witt's mom brought his six sisters to the service? Odd things like that bug me. Lol. 

[Bannon]

Witt died because, unlike Dot, he wasn't fully immersed in the nature of Roy Tillman, and thus tried to reason with someone entirely immune to reason. Roy being in law enforcement likely added to Trooper Witt's hesitancy. You'll notice Dot didn't hesitate to try to put a round into Roy, center-mass, as soon Roy rounded the corner of the porch.

[sistermagpie]

12 minutes ago, Bannon said:

Witt died because, unlike Dot, he wasn't fully immersed in the nature of Roy Tillman, and thus tried to reason with someone entirely immune to reason. Roy being in law enforcement likely added to Trooper Witt's hesitancy. You'll notice Dot didn't hesitate to try to put a round into Roy, center-mass, as soon Roy rounded the corner of the porch.

But I don't think that's what people (or me, at least) mean when we say we don't get why he died. It was clear very quickly that Witt wasn't prepared to shoot Roy, and if he wasn't prepared to shoot him he was going to die. The question was a Doylist one--it didn't seem necessary to show the audience that Witt didn't have it in him to be a killer because nobody thought that anyway. We already had Danish and Odin die for being less weak and psycho than Roy.

[aghst]

16 hours ago, Lonesome Rhodes said:

Excellent decision to end the siege so quickly.  I was dreading a drawn out blizzard of bullets and explosions to show off cinematography chops.  

Witt had courage for days, but was blind to true evil.

I was not happy that the cover for the escape tunnel was closed when Roy reached it.  Then, I loved discovering why that was.

The Gator outcome with Dot worked, but my vengeful self wanted her to deny him.  My best self is very happy that Gator was not fated to be another Munch.

The FBI agents' denouement felt undeserved.  Not sure they were heroes.  They were good guys, to be sure.

The wink from Lorraine to Dot was everything.

Roy's murder of his D-I-L was also a great moment - followed quickly by an even better one!  

One of my favorite albums is a re-imagined rock musical of "War of the Worlds."  The Martian invaders cry, "Ooooooh-laaaaa!" throughout.  Love Much's name:  Oola Moonk.

I am trying to fully grasp the meaning(s) of "debt" that Hawley is trying to impart.  It's a great life question.  Well done, sir.

A  mountain of suspension of disbelief was required of me, but I cherished the final scenes with Moonk.  Redemption is probably the central life issue, imo.  The man richly deserved it.

I think an action film shootout would have been very much at odds with the whole tone of the series.

They just showed flashes of violence in slow motion to give you a sense of what happened.

But they wrapped up the apprehension of the bad guys yet they had to kill off one of the good guys to show that there were real stakes?  Nobody was going to get out of this unscathed -- Dot may have some regret that she didn't kill Roy right on the porch, which led to Witt going after him.

 

I think an underrated part of the finale is Lorraine bragging about how she's the biggest funder of the Federalist Society so she gets her way with the courts, including the Supreme Court.

She would also be a big donor of GOP and especially MAGA politics, in order to have such control of the federal courts, because presidents nominate these FS judges to the courts, including the SCOTUS.

So while she's shown support for women during the season, like putting those old boys network businessmen in their place and hiring Indira and trying to help rescue Dot, she also is funding political entities which are changing laws to deny women rights not only to bodily autonomy but health.

We're suppose to enjoy how she's manipulated the legal and criminal justice system to make Roy's remaining years in prison a living hell.  But we also remember that she easily dismisses people as numbers, that is their debt.

She judges people who get in debt as being weak, not unlike how Odin and Roy were talking about being "soft"  -- Karen for not shooting Dot, Roy for not having killed Nadine already, Gator for being disappointingly not ruthless enough for Roy.

There is some criticism that Hawley leaned too much into contemporary politics, made it too much about certain MAGA behavior or mindset as articulated by Roy and the militia leader.

Even the idea of sin and penance, though borrowed from No Country for Old Men, kind of plays into the Christian Nationalism strain that Roy and Odin probably embody, though of course the leaders don't believe in penance for themselves, just everyone else.

 

[Crashcourse]

What was it that Lorraine gave to Roy in prison?

[Spartan Girl]

Maybe the ending would have worked better for me if there hadn’t been a fast forward. If we’d seen Wayne confront Dot over her lies and the fallout and reconciliation, or we’d seen Dot having to reckon with the actions she took and the people killed because of it—Witt, Danish, Jordan—and getting the therapy she needed. Then maybe her taking a level of kindness to Munch instead of choosing more violence would have felt like a more genuine act of growth and less “it’s my reality, you can stay or leave.”