S02.E06: Warning Shots

[MartyQui]

Don’t forget that Fellowes had an imposter hero show up in Downton, so it’s not beyond the realm of possibility that he’s recycling that plot for Maud’s storyline.  I 100%believe that there is some kind of scam afoot…nice young ladies in the 1880’s didn’t wait outside for their date.

[peeayebee]

Man, I hate having to wait until my sister can watch with me.

 

On 12/3/2023 at 9:43 PM, gwen747 said:

What do you suppose Dashiell's end game is? Money seems obvious, but Marian doesn't have any, so what else? A mom for his daughter?

That and he likes her! She's pretty, kind, and intelligent. But he doesn't really seem to be considering how SHE feels. He's a prize, she should see him as a prize, so it's decided!

 

On 12/4/2023 at 9:24 AM, EdnasEdibles said:

I don't know if Marian is a poorly written character or if the actress is just kind of blank. But she was absolutely sending mixed signals to Dashiel the whole time.

I see the problem as the actress. As you offered, she's blank. But I don't see Marian as sending mixed signals. She was being polite and kind. She was a teacher to the daughter, ol' what's-her-name, and Marian was, again, being kind to her. I never saw her being encouraging to Dashielle. If anything, he was being obtuse. 

One thing I was thinking about this ep re the actress, is that she doesn't use her voice well. You listen to Christina Baranski or many of the other actors, and you can hear how they use their voices. Louisa Jacobson's voice is all flat. 

 

On 12/4/2023 at 9:52 AM, ahpny said:

Though I suppose the "clock alarm patent" tangent was of scant interest to most, and possibly an amusing diversion from weighter issues like strike violence and opera box ownership, it was of some interest to those familar with patents because it was flagrantly misrepresentative of the patenting process and just wrong in almost every way.

While the current patenting process isn't identical to that in place in the 1880's, the current process isn't fundamentally different from that 140 years ago.

First, there has never been a patent office in New York City.

Second, the only patent office - in Washington D.C. (or more precisely Crystal City, Virginia now)- is not like the DMV, where you fill out a form and wait on line for anything.

Third, you send an application that tells the Patent Office why you should be entitled to a patent because your invention is new and non-obvious. That application is "prosecuted" by the Patent Office, i.e., an Patent Office Examiner considers whether your application is worthy of issuing as a patent by assessing how different it is from prior art - stuff that came before. That process can and take years. 

Fourth, a patent application would never be rejected because the applicant isn't a member of some specific group. That's just stupid. There's never been any provision like that in the patent laws of this country.

The filing fees mentioned in this episode do seem to be historically in the ball park, however. But today, and presumably then as well, the lion's share of the cost of filing a patent application isn't the application filing fees charged by the Patent Office, but the fees a patent lawyer charges to write the patent application. While anyone can file a patent application (and you don't necessarily need a patent lawyer to do that), the patent application rules are so byzantine that it's almost impossible for a pro se applicant to file his or her own patent application.

For those who want to wade into the weeds on this, see https://www.ipmall.info/content/patent-history-materials-index-brief-history-united-states-patent-office-its-foundation-1790

Spoil sport. 😉

Historical accuracy aside, I was wondering if somebody at the patent office would steal Jack's idea. Maybe Jack would go to school to become an official clock person (hoborororo or whatever), which perhaps would be financed by Agnes, and while he was going thru all that, his escape wheel redesign would be used by someone else, and Jack would have no recourse.

On 12/4/2023 at 2:01 PM, Affogato said:

I hoped when I heard about Luke's back issues that it was a fake out. 

Aww, bless your heart. :)

On 12/5/2023 at 2:12 PM, RachelKM said:

Now Bertha wants Turnerton to suffer. Or maybe that's just me. 

Nope. We all want to Turner to suffer. 

On 12/5/2023 at 3:59 PM, shang yiet said:

Still don't care about the servants, I can't remember why one butler has to forgive the other

😆 If I was drinking milk, I would be snorting it out of my nose. 

Was there even a plaque at Dashielle's botanical party, or was this all just an excuse for a public proposal?

I guess McAllister is always playing both sides.

I lost the quote, but whoever here mentioned Tom and Lorenzo, thank you. I've gotten out of the habit of checking their site, so if they're recapping this, YAY!

Re Agnes coming to comfort Ada: I think it was genuine. Agnes loves Ada and wants her to be happy. Of course Agnes knows that the news of Forte's cancer would be devastating to Ada, so her first thought is Ada's pain. 

When we first see Maud's pink dress, I was wowed. I didn't know who it was at first, but man, what a gorgeous color.

I'm so worried for Oscar. I'm still convinced he's going to lose all that money. Maud and the other guy are working together. The man is very good at looking like he's concerned about Maud, but that's part of the scam. And, of course, to surprise viewers. Some viewers.

[MartyQui]

Regarding Forte and possible money…that is totally not a Boston Brahmin (aka rich) name.  Now if his last name was Spaulding, Cabot or Lodge, even Warren, we could discuss.

[peeayebee]

I just read Tom and Lorenzo's recap of this ep, and I just LOL'd at them saying, "Dashiell and his creepy daughter M3ghan."

[rollacoaster]

19 hours ago, chaifan said:

Aurora told Oscar that Maud went to Paris after her mother died.  But there's no time reference for that. 

I've also considered whether the Maude that we see is really Maude Beaton or an impersonator.  If this were another series, the real Maude would have been killed in Paris and this person taken over her identity.  But I think that's too far afield for Fellowes.  I can see the companion coming into play somehow, otherwise, why was it mentioned?  It doesn't make sense for the real Maude Beaton to be in NY, but never seen, allowing her companion to impersonate her and con Oscar.  If this is an impersonation, I think it's more likely that the real Maude Beaton is still in Paris.  The Maud we see could be an ex-companion, former friend, lady's maid, etc., taking advantage of the real Maud's absence.

But again, if there's a real Maud Beaton, she would have debuted in NYC, would be known among that level of society, and someone in Newport should know her.

Holy hell, I'm putting way too much thought/time into this.

 

 

You are probably putting more thought into it than Fellowes. I appreciate the ideas you and other posters are presenting here. They are actually thoughtful and intriguing.

[Hana Chan]

I'm going to be a little contrarian when it comes to the Marian/Dashiell engagement because I'm taking off my modern goggles and looking at it from the perspective of a woman from her era. While she might not be in passionate love with Dashiell, by the standards of their era, he's an absolute catch. Besides being wealthy and in the right social class, he seems like a better than average guy. He's not so much older than she is that a match would be uncomfortable (unlike the Wintertons). He's a doting father and seems at the very least fond of. if not in love, with Marian. I didn't take the comment about her teaching as being unimportant in the way that some on the board are, because Marian basically took up teaching as something to keep her busy. She enjoys it and seems to be finding a certain passion for the job but unlike other women in the profession, she doesn't need to teach in order to support herself. A woman of her social class doesn't hold outside jobs because they don't need it financially, so I don't blame Dashiell for seeing it as some kind of hobby for Marian. 

And while it does look like Agnes is pushing hard for this marriage, I get that from her perspective, she's doing what is necessary to make sure that her niece is set up for the rest of her life. After all, Marian arrived in New York absolutely penniless and was completely dependent upon her aunt for support. Ava, as a lifelong spinster up until now, was also dependent upon Agnes. And we have to remember that Ava had the luxury of waiting until "true love" arrived with Luke because Agnes was making sure that she was cared for. Finding love late in life (and it's pretty clear that she's going to lose it very soon) is romantic but if Agnes hasn't made the hard choices and basically sacrificed herself in a bad marriage to make sure that she and her sister weren't on the streets, she wouldn't have had that option. I get that Agnes doesn't want to see Marian in a similar position and Dashiell, for all his flaws, would treat her well. 

While I do enjoy seeing Marian and Larry and I like the idea of them as endgame, at this point what do they really know about one another beyond "Hey, you're cute"? They've run into one another between their houses, and at a few parties but it's not like they've spent that much time together that I buy a love story between them. The potential is there, but right now Larry was still smarting over losing his older lover and he's not exactly making any kind of play for Marian. Waiting too long runs the risk of Marian becoming an "old maid". Larry would have to make some kind of real pitch for her, because their pairing would make sense with their storyline of joining the old wealth with the new. But they haven't reached that stage just yet.

Edited December 7, 2023 by Hana Chan

[red12]

On 12/3/2023 at 10:10 PM, AntFTW said:

Lastly, Oscar is an idiot. I find it quite funny, though, that the lawyer/banker/whatever guy said Oscar was using Maud Beaton. If Oscar is being scammed, his own greed makes him the perfect mark.

It's nearly impossible to con a mark without their cooperation. The more of their idea the transaction is, the easier it is to get away once discovered.

"You begged me to take your money Oscar" and "I warned you that using Ms. Beaton's name was a bad idea."

[RachelKM]

2 hours ago, Hana Chan said:

'm going to be a little contrarian when it comes to the Marian/Dashiell engagement because I'm taking off my modern goggles and looking at it from the perspective of a woman from her era.....

Oh, I agree entirely.  My only issue with the teaching comment was it showed how not suited to him Marian was.  It's true that, for a woman of this era, all indications are that Dashiell is an excellent prospect. The problem is Marian's goals have not been typical of her era, or at least her priorities haven't. 

What I fault her for is not seeing the writing on the wall. His intentions have been patent since he first offered her a ride home. And, while not expressly encouraging to him, she has done a number of things that could be interpreted that way.

All that said, a public proposal is an asshole move. The only justification I can sort of come up with is that, based on all of his qualities which you so clearly laid out, and her lack of attempts to shut down his hints, he genuinely considers it a decided thing. It is outside his capacity for imagination that she may not be awaiting his proposal.

It doesn't excuse the spectacle aspect, though.  Everything inside my socially ambivalent, anxiety prone brain recoils even thinking of it now. 

Edited December 7, 2023 by RachelKM

[Juneau Gal]

I have enjoyed this show for the costumes and the settings. The storytelling is neither here nor there for me; nothing egregious, nothing spellbinding. BUT I'm not going down another Edith rabbit-hole of a character who is never, until the bitter end of the series, allowed to have happiness. Yay Aunt Ada finds love and marries! BAM! next scene Aunt Ada's new husband has cancer. Puhlease! There is bad storytelling. There is sloppy storytelling. And then there is lazy storytelling of which Julian Fellowes seems to be the king. I'm not wasting my time on this and that makes me sad, because there was so much potential for this to be good.

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, Hana Chan said:

I'm going to be a little contrarian when it comes to the Marian/Dashiell engagement because I'm taking off my modern goggles and looking at it from the perspective of a woman from her era. While she might not be in passionate love with Dashiell, by the standards of their era, he's an absolute catch. Besides being wealthy and in the right social class, he seems like a better than average guy. He's so much older than she is that a match would be uncomfortable (unlike the Wintertons). He's a doting father and seems at the very least fond of. if not in love, with Marian. I didn't take the comment about her teaching as being unimportant in the way that some on the board are, because Marian basically took up teaching as something to keep her busy. She enjoys it and seems to be finding a certain passion for the job but unlike other women in the profession, she doesn't need to teach in order to support herself. A woman of her social class doesn't hold outside jobs because they don't need it financially, so I don't blame Dashiell for seeing it as some kind of hobby for Marian. 

 

The thing is, all this is very much true, which is why it's so egregious that they threw in that public proposal! Because I feel like realistically while he might absolutely propose, and absolutely would say "you're not a real teacher" as a compliment and reminder that she doesn't have to follow any orders, he'd totally just propose to her privately with every expectation that she'd be thrilled to accept. That makes it almost weirder that JF set it up in such a way to pressure her, because he would probably consider that as awful as we do!

[RachelKM]

1 hour ago, sistermagpie said:

That makes it almost weirder that JF set it up in such a way to pressure her, because he would probably consider that as awful as we do!

As noted above by @Juneau Gal, JF is lazy AF. He wanted a short hand for Marian feeling like she had to say yes, what with Agnes cheering and Little M3gan (for get who to credit) staring daggers of delight and need at her. 

The thing is, it could have been accomplish fairly easily with him doing it in a private setting and seeing M3gan eagerly eavesdropping, anything to make it clear Marian, with Agnes's practical arguments in favor of him still ringing in her ears, didn't want to break a little girl's heart.  But then it would be more Marian's fault.  With the public proposal, what was poor, intermittently passive and spiritless Marian to do? 

Why have complicated fallible people who sometimes cause their own grief when you can drop trope anvils in one go and then go have a cocktail*?

Yay uncomplicated story telling!

 

*Not going to lie. I would also go have a cocktail.

Edited December 7, 2023 by RachelKM

[Conotocarious]

1 hour ago, Juneau Gal said:

I have enjoyed this show for the costumes and the settings. The storytelling is neither here nor there for me; nothing egregious, nothing spellbinding. BUT I'm not going down another Edith rabbit-hole of a character who is never, until the bitter end of the series, allowed to have happiness. Yay Aunt Ada finds love and marries! BAM! next scene Aunt Ada's new husband has cancer. Puhlease! There is bad storytelling. There is sloppy storytelling. And then there is lazy storytelling of which Julian Fellowes seems to be the king. I'm not wasting my time on this and that makes me sad, because there was so much potential for this to be good.

I’m sticking with this til the bitter end but I agree with you. It is beyond bad storytelling for the Reverend to say “I have back pain” and me to go, Oh FFS, its cancer isn’t it. AND THEN IT IS. My high schooler could write a better script than that. It’s just beyond amateur hour when we can predict whats going to happen miles before it actually does.

[Hanahope]

1 hour ago, Juneau Gal said:

Yay Aunt Ada finds love and marries! BAM! next scene Aunt Ada's new husband has cancer. Puhlease! There is bad storytelling. There is sloppy storytelling. And then there is lazy storytelling of which Julian Fellowes seems to be the king. I'm not wasting my time on this and that makes me sad, because there was so much potential for this to be good.

the only possible reason i can come up for this story line is that the actor only wanted to do one season, so they had to write a plausible reason that he isn't there next season.

 

[chaifan]

I agree, Fellowes uses a lot of tropes and lazy cheats in his writing.  He knows the costumes and scenery are floating these shows, not the plot lines.  But, to give him a teeny bit of credit, he does have people (here) in a good debate about the Maude/Oscar situation - is it a scam or not (it is!), is she in on it (yes!), how much money will Oscar lose, will he lose Agnes' money, too, etc. 

 

[JenE4]

2 hours ago, Juneau Gal said:

I have enjoyed this show for the costumes and the settings. The storytelling is neither here nor there for me; nothing egregious, nothing spellbinding. BUT I'm not going down another Edith rabbit-hole of a character who is never, until the bitter end of the series, allowed to have happiness. Yay Aunt Ada finds love and marries! BAM! next scene Aunt Ada's new husband has cancer. Puhlease! There is bad storytelling. There is sloppy storytelling. And then there is lazy storytelling of which Julian Fellowes seems to be the king. I'm not wasting my time on this and that makes me sad, because there was so much potential for this to be good.

Yeah. First we get, Peggy, we found your son! Very next episode, oh, he’s dead. Now, Ada, you found a husband. Next episode, oh, he’s dead. Come on! Even if they eventually want Ada back with Agnes, let them have the rest of this season, at least because there’s plenty of “story” they can explore with this new dynamic. Why are they bothering to introduce these storylines if they’re not going anywhere? Meanwhile, they’ll drag out Jack tinkering with a clock or the other one with his estranged daughter over a 6-episode arc.

[RachelKM]

Just now, JenE4 said:

Yeah. First we get, Peggy, we found your son! Very next episode, oh, he’s dead. Now, Ada, you found a husband. Next episode, oh, he’s dead.

I full snort laughed at "Oh, he's dead."  😂 I might be deeply damaged...

[Hana Chan]

6 hours ago, RachelKM said:

What I fault her for is not seeing the writing on the wall. His intentions have been patent since he first offered her a ride home. And, while not expressly encouraging to him, she has done a number of things that could be interpreted that way.

Exactly. He's been courting her since they first met. Like at the casino when he won the bet on her advise and as a reward was going to get her "a treat". And how she's been using him to avoid her odious suitor. He's been courting her, and by all impressions, she's been accepting his courting. I can understand why he would be happy with his proposal. After all, he's wealthy, not terribly old, kind and not put off by the fact that she'd be coming into the marriage with no money of her own.

Marian could and should have made it clear that she was not interested in him romantically, and set some boundaries if she wanted to avoid confusion. Being asked to join his daughter at the Mother/Daughter tea was making it very clear that Marian was being seen as more than just a friend and possibly a permanent addition to their family. And Marian isn't stupid and totally devoid of a backbone. She's stood up to her aunt who maintains her, so dismissing an unwanted suitor should be within her abilities. 

As far as the proposal being public and Marian being pressured, we need to keep in mind that for many women of her social class, marriages were not often just love matches. They were arrangements and nothing happened without the support of the parents/guardians. Women would usually find themselves pressured to accept marriages that their parents supported. Look at Gladys, who's likely to be pushed into relationship with the Duke in order to satisfy Bertha's social climbing ambitions. 

Agnes wants Marian to marry well because, in her perspective, that is the only way to secure her future. Marrying a distant cousin with a daughter who clearly adores and idolizes her is hardly the worst fate in the world. Not like what Agnes faced with her husband. And while I do not believe that Marian will go through with the marriage, it's hardly like she's going to be married off to some odious troll. Dashiell might be presumptuous, but that is pretty typical of even the most well mannered men of his era.

And until Larry decides that he wants to seriously court Marian himself, Dashiell is the best option for her to avoid spinsterhood and being financially dependent upon her aunt for however long Agnes lives. 

[oceanblue]

Would Maud being possibly the illegitimate daughter of Jay Gould really be spoken about?  And in this group, being a Stuyvesant meant more.  I just googled what the NY Stuyveants were doing at this time and it turns out they were married to Astors and Fishes.  So Maud would be known.

[caburrito]

1 hour ago, oceanblue said:

Would Maud being possibly the illegitimate daughter of Jay Gould really be spoken about?

They already gossiped about one of the ladies who was in Bertha's carriage when Edison turned on the lights at the Times building. She was supposed to be a niece of Henry Flagler who was a founder of Standard Oil and gave her a huge allowance, but no one could work out how she could be his niece.

1 hour ago, oceanblue said:

So Maud would be known.

Yeah, that's definitely a problem. When Oscar meets her, he's like "Why haven't we crossed paths before?" She uses her travel to Europe as a reason, but has she been there so long that a young eligible Stuyvesant/Gould would be an unknown in New York?  And when she name drops the Drexels, Oscar is like "Oh I love the Drexels! Are you staying with them in Newport?" she tries to shut that down with, "No, just staying with friends."

[sistermagpie]

2 hours ago, Hana Chan said:

As far as the proposal being public and Marian being pressured, we need to keep in mind that for many women of her social class, marriages were not often just love matches. They were arrangements and nothing happened without the support of the parents/guardians. Women would usually find themselves pressured to accept marriages that their parents supported. Look at Gladys, who's likely to be pushed into relationship with the Duke in order to satisfy Bertha's social climbing ambitions. 

 

The public proposal seems set up to be tasteless for modern viewers and people of the time for different reasons. Modern viewers don't like it because it puts the woman in a position of not wanting to ruin everyone's moment, especially is. What seems off for somebody at the time is him making this big public display of announcing his love and getting on one knee in the grass in front of high society. Why on earth would he want to do that? Even if he isn't trying to pressure her because he thinks he's a good catch and that she's been accepting his courting? Without ever saying anything to her in private that wasn't at least slightly coded? 

[Roseanna]

4 hours ago, Hana Chan said:

Being asked to join his daughter at the Mother/Daughter tea was making it very clear that Marian was being seen as more than just a friend and possibly a permanent addition to their family. 

Marian was not asked to Mother/Daughter tea, she offered herself. She isn't very bright: she was astonished and embarrassed when she was regarded to be a mum by other mothers (although she is far too young for that). At least after that she should have realized what kind of sign she had sent to Dashiell and the whole society and changed her behavior. 

[iMonrey]

22 hours ago, Hana Chan said:

I'm going to be a little contrarian when it comes to the Marian/Dashiell engagement because I'm taking off my modern goggles and looking at it from the perspective of a woman from her era. While she might not be in passionate love with Dashiell, by the standards of their era, he's an absolute catch.

I'd do him.

21 hours ago, RachelKM said:

What I fault her for is not seeing the writing on the wall. His intentions have been patent since he first offered her a ride home. And, while not expressly encouraging to him, she has done a number of things that could be interpreted that way.

The thing is, I think Marian actually was open to marrying Dashiell. At least, she told Agnes she would keep an open mind about it. That's why she never really shut him down and allowed his obvious courting. 

But the actual proposal was unexpected, I don't think she considered it would happen that soon let alone so publicly. I think people are right to call it a dick move because it might very well have been a deliberate attempt to corner her. He might have been getting signals that she was wavering and knew it would be harder for her to say "no" in front of all those people and his daughter.

That said, I agree with @Hana Chan that given Marian's prospects, Dashiell would be considered a good catch by anyone of that era. The idea that she would wait around indefinitely for the ideal love match is not realistic given her circumstances in that era.

Edited December 8, 2023 by iMonrey

[norcalgal]

16 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

I'd do him.

The thing is, I think Marian actually was open to marrying Dashiell. At least, she told Agnes she would keep an open mind about it. That's why she never really shut him down and allowed his obvious courting. 

But the actual proposal was unexpected, I don't think she considered it would happen that soon let alone so publicly. I think people are right to call it a dick move because it might very well have been a deliberate attempt to corner her. He might have been getting signals that she was wavering and knew it would be harder for her to say "no" in front of all those people and his daughter.

That said, I agree with @Hana Chan that given Marian's prospects, Dashiell would be considered a good catch by anyone of that era. The idea that she would wait around indefinitely for the ideal love match is not realistic given her circumstances in that era.

ITA to aaaaalllll this!  For that era, Dashiell would be considered a good catch.  And I too think Dashiell is attractive. In fact, he’s more physically attractive to me than Larry (maybe because in my middle age eyes, Larry seems to much of a callow youth for me).

[chaifan]

Marion normally refers to Dashiel as "cousin Dashiel", even though they're not actual cousins.  (That was established in the episode he was first introduced, he said something like "though we're not really cousins", wink wink.)  I've always taken that as keeping him at arm's length as a suitor.  If you were attracted to someone and wanted to date him you wouldn't be calling him "Cousin Dashiel".

I just wish the show had allowed, at some point, for Marion to say something along the lines of, yeah Dashiel's a great guy, but for some reason I'm just not that into him.  Maybe in a conversation with Peggy or Ada, or even Larry.  We know she doesn't want to marry him.  But we don't know why.

As it stands, I could buy it as a perfectly suitable match, and one that has the potential for growing into a loving marriage.  So by the day's standards, that's a good deal for Marion.  It just doesn't make for an exciting plot line.

[sistermagpie]

2 hours ago, iMonrey said:

The thing is, I think Marian actually was open to marrying Dashiell. At least, she told Agnes she would keep an open mind about it. That's why she never really shut him down and allowed his obvious courting. 

 

Yes, I think if you step back and think about it, her behavior isn't that unreasonable. She hasn't completely missed that he's thinking along those lines and so is Agnes. She knows he would be a good match, but she's not sure how she feels about actually marrying the guy since she doesn't feel anything special for him. So she's maybe just seeing how she feels in the moment of truth when he openly makes a move. She had no idea that first move would be a public proposal where he says things that he should have said to her IN PRIVATE.

[blackwing]

Poor Ada.  It was obvious in the previous episode that something bad was going to happen to the Reverend, and I'm completely not surprised that we learned he has cancer.  I would hope for a miracle cure, but this is Fellowes, so Luke is going to get his glorious death while Ada will get her sobbing scenes and then carry on.  Ada will give a stoic speech about how at least she got to finally experience love, however brief.  The two Brook women will live out the end of their lives with only each other.  

I'm glad that Peggy finally gets some significant story, but I don't understand why it has to be completely separate from everyone else's.  She might as well be on a different show.  Her story is completely unconnected to everyone else's but then she is also shown popping up in the basement to remind us that she actually lives there.

How old is Dashiell supposed to be?  He's a cousin on the van Rhijn side, so related to the late Mr. van Rhijn.  All the van Rhijn cousins seem like they are around 40.  Marian is about 25.  I get that he wants a mother for his daughter, but where has he been and why can't he find anyone else?  Specifically, where was he during Season 1?  I think they said in the beginning of the season that he finally came home.  I forget where he was or why Fellowes felt the need to introduce him.

His proposal was ridiculous.  I don't think the two of them have even been on a proper date.  They spent a little bit of time together and they are each other's cousin's cousin.  That's enough to marry?  I know this wasn't unusual for the time for people to get married who didn't even know each other, but this is a TV show, they at least could have shown us why these two are getting together.

I hate to pick on child actors, but the girl playing the daughter is abysmal.  

Marian and Larry are a better match.  He seemed disappointed at the proposal, we saw him turning and walking away.  I know people are saying he doesn't have much personality, but he seems like a nice guy who is trying to make it in the world.  He's a much better match for her than Cousin Dashiell.

Can someone remind me, what has become of Carrie Astor?  In Season 1 she was being introduced as Gladys' new best friend.  Has she even appeared this season?  Am I imagining some kind of throwaway line that she's in Europe or was this line actually said?

Why hasn't Bertha tried to put Larry and Carrie together? In Season 1 I'm sure Lina would have been aghast, but now they have been established as some kind of frenemies.  I don't know why Bertha wouldn't try to gain inroads into New York society by marrying off Larry to some heiress like a stud horse.

On 12/3/2023 at 9:38 PM, Jodithgrace said:

i guess that everybody’s heart grew three sizes in this episode. The feuding butlers made up, George couldn’t fire upon men with children, Bertha ceded her primo box to the ex maid (though not for long) and Agnes unbent. She even gave a fiver to clock boy. 

George said the workers have families and caved.  However, he was still utterly ruthless to the Met guy.  Why is his funding such a secret?  Why couldn't he have just told Bertha that he knows how important it is to her that the Met succeed so he would help use their own money in exchange for a larger share of the profits?

On 12/4/2023 at 11:32 PM, buckboard said:

I found Agnes's coming to comfort Ada as more self-serving than mere comforting of her sister.  Agnes assumed her sister would be grateful for her offer of help to care for the ill reverend.  With her husband gone, Ada would come back to live with Agnes.  It all works out for Agnes who never wanted Ada to leave her.

Yes, but we don't know how long Luke has to live.  Agnes was fully prepared to take Ada and Luke into the house and seemed upset that they declined.  Bannister said that there was going to be an invalid in the house.  Agnes wanted her staff to help care for Luke, and the bonus is that Ada would be back in the house.

 

On 12/5/2023 at 6:45 PM, norcalgal said:

If Maud truly is a Stuyvesant and also the daughter of Gould (illegitimate, but still…), wouldn’t she have lots of money?  Why would she be part of a scam to bilk people of their money?  I’m still on the fence about whether Maud is in on the scam, but I lean on the side that Oscar is being hoodwinked.

I thought Aurora said that Maude's mother (or maybe grandmother) is or was a Stuyvesant.  Didn't Agnes or someone say something like "I know Mrs. ABC.  I'll ask her."  I don't think we heard anything onscreen but I would presume that somebody did in fact verify that Maude is a Stuyvesant on her mother's side.

If that's the case, I don't get why Maude is in on the con if she is from one of the oldest families.

On 12/6/2023 at 7:25 PM, peeayebee said:

Was there even a plaque at Dashielle's botanical party, or was this all just an excuse for a public proposal?

There was, we saw it in the opening scenes of the garden party.  "The Montgomery Memorial Garden" or something like that.

[shang yiet]

The thing is, Marian has been written as 'modern'. We never see her eagerly putting herself out there or showing any anxiety about securing her future. 

Gladys can afford to sit back and wait as she's an heiress and there will always be suitors chasing her. Marian is a poor relation who should know the van Rijn money is not coming to her.

[blackwing]

Marian has never shown any expectation that the van Rhijn money is coming to her.  Marian is a Brook.  I don't think the Brooks had much money.  All of Agnes' money is from her late husband, the van Rhijns are society and all of that money will go to Oscar.  Agnes is choosing to support Ada and Marian and that is her right while she is alive.

I think it seems clear that Marian would be perfectly happy being a schoolteacher.  Based on the predictability of Julian Fellowes, it seems the next step is that Marian is going to work for Mrs. Scott's friend's school, even though it would probably cause something of a scandal to have a white woman work at a black school.

Thank you to Agnes van Rhijn to introduce me to a new word "hobbledehoy" - an awkward gawky youth.  Why has this word mostly dropped from use?  It should be up there along with other fun to say words like hullaballoo, bamboozle, gobbledygook, cattywampus, flibbertigibbet, brouhaha and mollycoddle!

[Hana Chan]

21 hours ago, shang yiet said:

The thing is, Marian has been written as 'modern'. We never see her eagerly putting herself out there or showing any anxiety about securing her future. 

Gladys can afford to sit back and wait as she's an heiress and there will always be suitors chasing her. Marian is a poor relation who should know the van Rijn money is not coming to her.

Marian might be "modern" by her era's standards, but she is still very much a pampered creature of her social status. Teaching pampered society children because you're bored and need something to fill up your day is very different than working a job because you won't have a roof over your head and food on your table if you don't. And in all seriousness, what else could she do if Agnes suddenly decided that feeding and lavishly clothing her wasn't worth her time? Unlike Peggy, she didn't finish with school with any readily employable skills.  Her education is limited to that of the average wealthy woman who isn't expected to do more than manage a household and have all the social niceties of her class.

I agree that Marian has been very lackadaisical about her future. She knows that she's right now dependent upon Agnes's good will and when her aunt dies, she would be dependent on Oscar. Her choices are 1) get married to someone capable of supporting her or 2) becoming a social outcast in wealthy society and giving up her fancy dresses and easy life by finding work that will actually support her. Women of her class do not hold jobs so her options are limited. Marrying a handsome, wealthy man who at least seems fond of her is hardly a fate worse than death. She is very fortunate to have this opportunity and if she ends up rejecting Dashiell, she needs to have some other prospects lined up. And that may well mean leaving Agnes's home and finding a way to support herself.

I feel for Gladys and I think that she's got a pretty unvarnished view of what her mother wants for her. She knows that despite her father's promise that if Bertha wants to marry her off to some English duke for his social status, then she's not going to have any say in the matter. She's got very few real choices unless she decided to throw away her social standing and elope with someone that she truly loves.

Edited December 9, 2023 by Hana Chan

[quangtran]

I'm surprised with the number of people who blames Marion for sending mixed signals, when she has never been flirty or romantic around Dash, especially compared to how her relationship played out with Tom last season. 

[AntFTW]

31 minutes ago, quangtran said:

I'm surprised with the number of people who blames Marion for sending mixed signals, when she has never been flirty or romantic around Dash, especially compared to how her relationship played out with Tom last season. 

Remember how she rejected Tom Raikes' advances in the very first episode? She outright shut him down. It wasn't an implicit rejection. It just didn't stop him. He was persistent despite the initial rejection.

She didn't do that with Dashiell. I'm not sure if Marian is to blame, but she wasn't as clear with Dashiell as she was when she rejected Tom. Her lack of clear communication is partially to blame.

I also consider that how she sends a signal may not be how Dashiell receives a signal, so a little more clarity on Marian's part would have been more helpful.

Edited December 9, 2023 by AntFTW

[quangtran]

I still think it's a huge leap that her being blandly pleasant (like she always is) is interpreted at sending mixed signals. Heck, there's barely any eye contact between the two. At least with Raikes there was an actual courtship.

Quote

I'm not sure if Marian is to blame, but she wasn't as clear with Dashiell as she was when she rejected Tom.

I don't think she is to blame, because a lot of their interactions was her being a teacher and actual family (asking Dash to walk Ada down the aisle). I guess I'm in the opinion that basic kindness should never be considered sending mixed signals, because this is why women always get victim blamed.

[AntFTW]

40 minutes ago, quangtran said:

I don't think she is to blame, because a lot of their interactions was her being a teacher and actual family (asking Dash to walk Ada down the aisle). I guess I'm in the opinion that basic kindness should never be considered sending mixed signals, because this is why women always get victim blamed.

Sure, I understand. I don't lay 100% of the blame on Marian.

However, this guy was clearly a little flirtatious with her. She seems to have caught onto that. To us, the audience, it's clear she wasn't interested in Dashiell romantically. Clearly, Dashiell didn't perceive it that way.

I'm only saying that she wasn't being clear in what she wanted, that she wasn't interested in him romantically. I only blame her for not being clear enough in communication that she wasn't interested, like she did with Tom Raikes.

I agree with many here that Dashiell is seemingly not a bad option for a husband. He's wealthy and comes from the right family. Marian likes his company. He's a good looking guy. He seems charming. He's a catch in every way, by the standards of the day. Frankly, he'd be a catch today in 2023. She's just not into him romantically, which is fine, and I can see how that creates pressure for Marian to not reject him.

Edited December 9, 2023 by AntFTW

[Baltimore Betty]

4 hours ago, AntFTW said:

. Marian likes his company. He's a good looking guy. He seems charming.

Yes, totally agree but I think the real draw is his daughter, Marian wants to do the right thing for the daughters sake and probably is thinking she would marry Dash for the child's sake but will it be enough.

[Salacious Kitty]

Caught a rerun last night. There was a quick shot of Larry walking away alone looking dejected after the proposal.  Didn't take long for him to forget Mrs. Blaine. 

Edited December 9, 2023 by Salacious Kitty

[sistermagpie]

8 hours ago, quangtran said:

I still think it's a huge leap that her being blandly pleasant (like she always is) is interpreted at sending mixed signals. Heck, there's barely any eye contact between the two. At least with Raikes there was an actual courtship.

I think the signals in this case aren't about her seeming flirtatious but choosing to spend time with him at all, particularly acting as a mother substitute. It's more a societal understanding thing than her ever actually seeming flirtatious at all.

None of which makes Dashiel's proposal any less inappropriate and out of the blue.

2 hours ago, Salacious Kitty said:

Caught a rerun last night. There was a quick shot of Larry walking away alone looking dejected after the proposal.  Didn't take long for him to forget Mrs. Blaine. 

I took that to be about Larry seeing another young person pushed into a romantic situation she didn't want more than him wanting Marian for himself. Or maybe that he resented Dashiell being able to find love again with Marian in ways Mrs. Blaine couldn't with him.

In any case, it was about the situation/system more than wanting Marian.

Edited December 9, 2023 by sistermagpie

[peeayebee]

3 hours ago, Baltimore Betty said:

Yes, totally agree but I think the real draw is his daughter, Marian wants to do the right thing for the daughters sake and probably is thinking she would marry Dash for the child's sake but will it be enough.

Nope!

[iMonrey]

On 12/8/2023 at 10:58 AM, chaifan said:

Marion normally refers to Dashiel as "cousin Dashiel", even though they're not actual cousins.  (That was established in the episode he was first introduced, he said something like "though we're not really cousins", wink wink.)  I've always taken that as keeping him at arm's length as a suitor.  If you were attracted to someone and wanted to date him you wouldn't be calling him "Cousin Dashiel".

Tell that to Mary Crawley and her cousin Matthew. "Toffs" regularly married cousins in those days. It was quite common. And as you say, they're not even really cousins. 

19 hours ago, blackwing said:

[Larry's] a much better match for her than Cousin Dashiell.

I'm going to disagree. Larry is immature and unsettled. He says he wants to be an architect and at this point his parents are humoring him, at best. So far his one job garnered him an affair with an older widow. His parents may be rich and he would presumably inherit one day, but at the moment he is entirely dependent on their finances.

Dashiell is wealthy in his own right, mature and settled. I'm not sure what he does for a living, maybe he doesn't even have to work. But in the sense of what Marian actually needs, in every practical sense, Dashiell is the better match. This isn't 2023, and if she's around 25 she's already approaching spinsterhood.

[norcalgal]

1 hour ago, sistermagpie said:

I took that to be about Larry seeing another young person pushed into a romantic situation she didn't want more than him wanting Marian for himself. Or maybe that he resented Dashiell being able to find love again with Marian in ways Mrs. Blaine couldn't with him.

In any case, it was about the situation/system more than wanting Marian.

I’m not sure how to interpret Larry’s reaction (and maybe the show made it ambiguous on purpose so the viewer could put their own spin on it), but I also don’t think it was that Larry felt he lost his chance with Marian. It’s just too soon from two points for him to feel like Marian “slipped away”:

1) his romance with Mrs. Blaine (aka Melania Trump on the Colbert show) ended not long ago; and 

2) The Gilded Age hasn’t done enough to show Larry has romantic feelings for Marian

[Roseanna]

20 hours ago, norcalgal said:

2) The Gilded Age hasn’t done enough to show Larry has romantic feelings for Marian

That! 

The heroine doesn't need to know the hero's romantic feelings, but audience must - indeed, they must eagerly want the couple to be together.

Many here seem to be in Team Larian, but I must confess that I don't care what happens to them as individuals and couple. I can't help  but wonder how an experienced screenwriter like Fellowes has created such dull characters and plot.  

Edited December 10, 2023 by Roseanna
corrected one word

[ferjy]

On 12/4/2023 at 12:57 AM, kay1864 said:

Same! Especially after Forte said “I asked the maid to turn it on”. 😆

And on and on… 😄

 

[ferjy]

On 12/3/2023 at 10:38 PM, Jodithgrace said:

I’m sure she’ll get out of it before the big day. 

Maybe Dasheill will get a backache. 

[steph369]

I’m disgusted with the cancer plot. This has to be the quickest a relationship went full circle. Meeting, falling in love, marrying, funeral. All in 5 minutes! At this rate he’ll be gone next episode. 

[goldilocks]

4 minutes ago, steph369 said:

I’m disgusted with the cancer plot. This has to be the quickest a relationship went full circle. Meeting, falling in love, marrying, funeral. All in 5 minutes! At this rate he’ll be gone next episode. 

They could have at least given us a season of their relationship. I thought Robert Sean Leonard was a great addition to the cast. Now I have to fret each episode that he’ll be gone by the end of it. 🙁

[steph369]

59 minutes ago, ferjy said:

And on and on… 😄

 

The maid seemed happy enough to do the job. Probably just happy to listen to some music. Bet she won’t be smiling by the end of the week. 😀

[sistermagpie]

10 hours ago, Roseanna said:

Many here seem to be in Team Larian, but I must confess that I don't care what happens to them as individuals and couple. I can't help  but wonder how an experienced screenwriter like Fellowes has created such dull characters and plot.  

I feel both ways, if that makes sense. I'm Team Larian in that from the first ep I assumed they were endgame, and while I don't care about them as a couple or individually, I seem to vaguely prefer them over the other people they've given for them that I also don't care about. Maybe partly because they're so far away from being a couple that it seems like they might grow into something better so I don't have to like them right now. I can hope for improvement.

Edited December 10, 2023 by sistermagpie

[Ilovepie]

On 12/4/2023 at 10:03 AM, sistermagpie said:

Yes, where the social issues of the white people are presented in ways where we're personally invested, with Peggy it's just an abstract thing where she's Donig What's Right. So somehow things that are far far more important (like Civil Rights) are far less important than who gets the central box at the opera. Which is one thing when all the characters live in the white bubble, but Peggy's a main character!

I totally agree that Peggy is a main character.......on a different show. On this show, her story seems shoe horned into the rest of the story and isn't connected in almost any way so it feels like a different show inside this one. I find it frustrating on both ends - every time the story moves to Peggy I wish it didn't, but I think if Peggy's story was examined in it's own space, it would be fascinating. Black middle class northerners in the post-Civil War era is not something I've ever seen on TV and I would definitely watch!

[Atlanta]

I think a spin off with Peggy would be great, and if Gladys winds up with the duke, a spin off of that as well. Peggy's storyline was so far from the Manhattans. 

[Roseanna]

7 hours ago, Atlanta said:

if Gladys winds up with the duke, a spin off of that as well

It has already been done better in Buccaneers.

And Gladys is dull.

[HappyHanna]

My impression of the new Buccanears is that it is a Bridgerton level of modernized.  I would like to see Gladys+the Duke (assuming that it is following the Cora or Consuelo pattern) with a slightly more true to time treatment. (I would also like to see that with this one...can Marian stop rolling her eyes please)