S03.E04: The White Room

[jenrising]

Quote

Charles's stage fright reaches unimaginable heights, involving a break from reality and multiple baby dolls. Mabel is confronted by a mysterious individual from her past with a pivotal proposal.

 

[thuganomics85]

Still debating if I actually ever want to know what was going down when Charles went in the "The White Room."  Especially that second time: anything that can set Oliver off and make him get that angry has to be a sight to behold!  Not sure if that concept is a real thing amongst stage actors, but I do imagine that there is extra pressure there due to it being live and in front of people, and there is no retakes or redos.  Have to have a thick skin, I imagine.  Also good to know to avoid the Papa Jones in Yonkers at all cost!

Ah, Cinda Canning!  Had to have known she'd rear her head at some point.  Not surprised that she's currently putting on this "new age" act to make it look like she found enlightenment and redemption, but is already taking steps towards trying to get back into the crime podcasting game.  Which currently involves her trying to convince Mabel to team up.  Mable's refusing for now, but despite all of the red flags, I do see why there might be temptation there.  Not only is Mabel clearly having financial issues with finding a new place, but it is true that Charles and Oliver are prioritizing the play (and possibly their love lives) over finding the killer, and I can see it reaching a breaking point soon with Mabel.  That said: do not trust Cinda, Mabel!

So, it looks like Kimber has been ruled out as a suspect (for now?)  Interesting that despite her reactions in the premiere, she even clams Ben had a nice side.  I wonder if we'll get a Ben-centric type flashback episode (like they did with Bunny last season), where we will see who Ben really was?

But it now looks like Joy might actually be a suspect, but I definitely think she's a red herring because I just can't see this show having another one of Charles' love interest be the killer.  But I'm wondering if the lipstick was a coincidence or if someone was trying to frame her?

Charles and Oliver are completely right that Mabel as "old person" energy.  I wonder how much of that might even come from Selena Gomez herself, because really does play off both Steve Martin and Martin Short spectacularly.  Her attempts to be hip with Kimber did crack me up.

[phalange]

I hope Joy has nothing to do with it, because a second girlfriend being a killer would be so awful for Charles. I think what happened is Joy was the one who fixed whatever red mark Ben had and for some reason her lipstick was left in his dressing room. If we assume that Ben really was talking to the cookies, he may have written the message on the mirror about himself after eating them, since he's pretty self-loathing.

Every time Charles went to the white room was hilarious, especially the baby doll somehow hanging from the ceiling the second time. Also, the opening scene with Mabel had her wearing white and in an all-white apartment. Mabel, like Charles, is feeling unsteady. Cinda, I think, was also dressed in white. 

Good for Mabel for refusing Cinda's offer, even though she could use the money and Charles and Oliver are checked out. Though Joy now being a suspect should get them refocused on the murder.

[shapeshifter]

5 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

now looks like Joy might actually be a suspect, but I definitely think she's a red herring because I just can't see this show having another one of Charles' love interest be the killer.

Yes.

2 hours ago, phalange said:

I think what happened is Joy was the one who fixed whatever red mark Ben had and for some reason her lipstick was left in his dressing room.

Definitely possible.

5 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

But I'm wondering if the lipstick was a coincidence or if someone was trying to frame her?

Joy framed with lipstick? A possibility, or...

2 hours ago, phalange said:

If we assume that Ben really was talking to the cookies, he may have written the message on the mirror about himself after eating them, since he's pretty self-loathing.

this makes sense too. A pig is an appropriate representation of eating forbidden cookies.

Joy does seem to be good for Charles. Or is she just good at turning off her bad effects on him?

No Loretta this episode. Hope this satisfies the anti-Streep contingent of viewers.

F'loved Mabel's sweater
— and so did Howard, right? Or not so much?

 

Hanging chad:

• Last episode it was strongly implied that Kim was out to sabotage Loretta. 
  Maybe there's some drug or herb on stage that can induce paranoid delusions?

Off to add Cinda Canning to the suspect list on the "Only Speculation Without Spoilers In the Thread" thread.

Edited August 22, 2023 by shapeshifter

[ofmd]

Much to my own surprise I liked the unexpected return of Cinda. Never cared for her, but I think she adds some spice right now. I never bought her new, reformed persona schtick. Bring it on, girl!

She should have thrown in an apartment for Mabel, that might have worked...

I'm not impressed with the boys apparently not caring about her predicament. But also, did she expect to live forever in her aunt's apartment, never having a job etc?

I was hoping that Kimber really had to live in her wardrobe because she couldn't afford a place to live, and maybe she and Mabel could share as roommates.

Poor Charles, this show can't just give him a good relationship for once. (I'm not watching this show for romance, but I wouldn't mind SO's as long as we don't see too much of them.)

Idk, from everything we've seen, Joy is overly obsessed with him and also super weird. This show: Charles being weird=charmingly quirky. Woman being weird=certifiable. Unless ofc this is all in his head, but I doubt it.

That said, I don't necessarily think she is the murderer. Then again, she seems to have put him on a pedestal for a very long time, and Ben dissed him...

It will be funny (and probably painful) watching Charles try and get out of this.

My favorite this season, so far, has been Howard. "May I go and call my therapist?" And maybe Loretta, but with her, I always expect the other shoe to drop. Speaking of her, if we see her dinner with Oliver, she'll probably tell him about this wonderful new man in her life...

A propos favorites, Uma is criminally underused.

 

 

 

Edited August 22, 2023 by ofmd

[paigow]

Whoever bought the handkerchief on EBay is the killer...

[Jediknight]

"I literally had to talk Idina Menzel off a ledge."

We got Meryl and Paul Rudd this season, please tell me this is a hint that Idina Menzel will be in next season.  Probably just a name drop, but hey, you never know.

Good on Mabel for not turning against the guys.  Yeah, the trio is going through a rough patch right now, but they're best friends, and Charles and Oliver are kind of like dads to Mabel.  And Charles and Oliver will find a way to make sure that Mabel keeps the apartment.

I want to see the outtakes of Steve Martin attempting the "rap".  When he first walked out it looked like Selena was desperately trying to stop herself from breaking.  Also the outtakes from Steve in the White Room, dude was having a blast.

And I'm calling Dickie as the killer.

[SeanBug]

Joy will move out and Mabel will move in with Charles. 

62 fish? And a mini trampoline in the living room? And those exercise balls?

I'm getting anxiety just thinking about it. 

 

[cardigirl]

I enjoyed Joy so much last season and was looking forward to seeing how that relationship had blossomed, but I guess the writers decided to make her kooky and not in a great way. Ugh. I love Andrea Martin, but like Charles, I'm looking for a way outta this relationship.  Why, why, why does she have to be dotty? 

Looks like old Charles is in it for sex only. 

I really liked the concept of the "white room" and Charles' experience with trying to do the "talking" song. He was great when he performed it in the apartment. LOL. 

I'm glad to see Cinda but like others have said, I hope Mabel doesn't end up trusting her. 

53 minutes ago, Jediknight said:

Good on Mabel for not turning against the guys.  Yeah, the trio is going through a rough patch right now, but they're best friends, and Charles and Oliver are kind of like dads to Mabel.  And Charles and Oliver will find a way to make sure that Mabel keeps the apartment.

I hope not. That apartment she renovated is beautiful, and she did a great job, but I hope she figures out a way to stay in the Arconia all on her own.  

[Affogato]

29 minutes ago, cardigirl said:

I enjoyed Joy so much last season and was looking forward to seeing how that relationship had blossomed, but I guess the writers decided to make her kooky and not in a great way. Ugh. I love Andrea Martin, but like Charles, I'm looking for a way outta this relationship.  Why, why, why does she have to be dotty? 

Looks like old Charles is in it for sex only. 

I really liked the concept of the "white room" and Charles' experience with trying to do the "talking" song. He was great when he performed it in the apartment. LOL. 

I'm glad to see Cinda but like others have said, I hope Mabel doesn't end up trusting her. 

I hope not. That apartment she renovated is beautiful, and she did a great job, but I hope she figures out a way to stay in the Arconia all on her own.  

I bet she gets a interior designer business. 

[paigow]

1 hour ago, Jediknight said:

please tell me this is a hint that Idina Menzel will be in next season. 

The penthouse is available again...

[shapeshifter]

1 hour ago, Jediknight said:

And I'm calling Dickie as the killer.

Maybe Ben's brother could be the accidental killer. 

But how about "Friend of Ben's" (Galway McCullough) from 3.2 "The Beat Goes On" (imdb.com/title/tt27710602/?ref_=ttep_ep2)?

 

56 minutes ago, SeanBug said:

...And a mini trampoline in the living room? And those exercise balls?
I'm getting anxiety just thinking about it. 

Steve Martin had me almost convinced that Charles could be okay with the trampoline and the ball.

 

[Snapdragon]

I find it odd that Charles wouldn't be aware of all of Joy's crazy until now since they've already been dating a year but I'll just hand wave that away.   I do agree that Ben most likely wrote the pig comment himself after he ate an entire plate of cookies (or some other dessert). 

My theory right now is that Ben faked his own death at the theater as a way to get press and spice up the documentary, then later someone actually murdered him at the Arconia.  The brother is my lead suspect, just because they haven't concentrated on him very much.  Maybe after years of Ben's nonsense he just snapped?  Or Ben found out that he was also going to represent Loretta and didn't like that?  

Also, am I the only one who was surprised that Selena Gomez and Ashley Park are only a year apart?  I assumed Park was closer to 40 but she's only 32.

[peeayebee]

8 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

But it now looks like Joy might actually be a suspect, but I definitely think she's a red herring because I just can't see this show having another one of Charles' love interest be the killer.  But I'm wondering if the lipstick was a coincidence or if someone was trying to frame her?

 

Yeah, I'm thinking red herring, too. She probably took her big makeup bag into Ben's dressing room to fix the red mark on his face, and either she took out the lipstick to use it or better yet ...

5 hours ago, phalange said:

... Ben ... may have written the message on the mirror about himself after eating them, since he's pretty self-loathing.

this. Makes perfect sense.

Wasn't there another lipstick missing from her bag?

I think that Charles didn't actually propose to Joy, but she took advantage of his fugue state to pretend he asked.

What kind of red mark would Ben have had on his face?

 

3 hours ago, ofmd said:

My favorite this season, so far, has been Howard. "May I go and call my therapist?"

That may have been my one laugh this ep. I didn't find the white room business funny. Classic Steve Martin, whom I love, but it just didn't work for me.

BTW, before each white room segment ended, there was the sound of a chimp screeching. This is the same sound that Joy made when she was calling Charles to bed. Is it just that he's stressed by having had Joy move in with him so her chimp-cries are permeating his happy place?

Is going to The White Room a real thing with stage actors?

Cinda doing the Gwyneth Paltrow/Goop stuff was an easy laugh. But I like Tiny Fey, so that was fine with me.

I like the in-joke about Ben using anti-aging serum. So that's why Paul Rudd never looks older!

Edited August 22, 2023 by peeayebee

[ofmd]

1 hour ago, peeayebee said:

 

Wasn't there another lipstick missing from her bag?

Yes! Who has the other missing lipstick?

Good idea about Charles not really proposing.

I also still believe Ben faked his first "death" for clout, maybe even documentary guy was in cahoots with him.

[Zanzibar]

Red mark on Ben's face: Maybe an allergic reaction to something?

[peeayebee]

My first thought was that somebody hit him or maybe he bumped his face himself somehow. 

[sjankis630]

This one was a disappointment for me. I didn't mind Cynda coming back into the picture as it gives the murder mystery more of a front and center place. 

I still don't know why stage performers are not rehearsing at the theater? Can someone enlighten me on why they were locked out?

The Steve Martin white scenes got less and less interesting as they went along. I did like Andrea Martin but feel she is truly the zany red herring. 

Until the Cynda scene sometimes I forgot they were actually working on a mystery. I gue

[paramitch]

I thought this one was sort of uncomfortable and just... okay. I found myself stressed and irritated at almost everyone. It was genuinely sweet to see Charles making his customary tribute omelette, but Joy's reaction felt sort of cruel and dismissive. If they've been dating for a year, is this really their first conversation about it?

On the shallow plus side, Tina Fey looks very pretty as a blonde. And I am normally anti "brunette goes blonde" just on principle.

Charles's "white room" blackouts didn't really work for me. Like, I get that we're supposed to try to imagine all the silly things he did, but... it's immersion-breaking to me that he is literally unaware of what just happened and "waking up." Does Charles have a brain tumor? Does he have Dissociative Identity Disorder? Otherwise, WTF?

Like, it's not supposed to be an actual "I am having blackouts and have no idea what just happened." If you have stage fright, or anxiety, etc. -- in real life, it's more like, you're watching yourself in horror and aware of what you're doing and can't stop yourself.

So I find it a little frustrating and irritating. Sometimes this show feels written in a bubble by people who have never actually met real people. Is it the celebrity thing? I mean... it's just weird.

I loved Mabel's tiny apartment tour -- although it was underpriced for NYC. I have friends in Manhattan paying $5k who do not even have a full-sized fridge.

And I admit it, I was also irritated that Cynda offered Mabel all that money -- the TWO extra zeroes -- and she didn't take it?

Why, why, why do poor people in movies always nobly turn down huge amounts of money as a cheap way of denoting their high ideals? As a fast shorthand to show us how good they are, how incorruptible? I mean, JFC.

I get so angry at it. It's cheap and bad writing. Especially these days. I grew up dirt poor. I work in a tough industry. I'm okay but it's always a struggle. So stop doing that, writers. Try starving for a few years, tanking your credit rating simply for your own health -- or never answering your phone because of creditor phone calls. Gah.

I had the same issue in season 1 with Oliver magically solving his issues with the ridiculous ad buy, so again -- I need to get over this stuff.

I really enjoy the show, but sometimes it does look and feel overly precious, sloppy, fast-tracked, and created and presented by people who have totally forgotten what real people live like.

I don't mind that stuff. And I frequently REVEL in escaping into TV and film. Do not get me started on how much I loved "Succession" for its rich and thoughtful complex characters --  just as much on the millimeter-shallow-end of the pool just for its gorgeous homes, rooms, vistas, yachts, etc. Bring it on!

Maybe that's what's bothering me. I still can't get over Mabel PAINTING OVER her gorgeous irreplaceable murals. And now being homeless. Aghgh. Obviously, I have issues.

On 8/22/2023 at 12:11 AM, thuganomics85 said:

Not only is Mabel clearly having financial issues with finding a new place, but it is true that Charles and Oliver are prioritizing the play (and possibly their love lives) over finding the killer, and I can see it reaching a breaking point soon with Mabel.  That said: do not trust Cinda, Mabel!

I am not really enjoying how utterly unaware Charles and Oliver are of what Mabel is going through. It just feels a little sad to me, watching Mabel deal with some genuine issues while Charles and Oliver are just off to the side, hogging the spotlight and obliviously, frantically, feeding their own egos.

20 hours ago, Jediknight said:

"I literally had to talk Idina Menzel off a ledge."

We got Meryl and Paul Rudd this season, please tell me this is a hint that Idina Menzel will be in next season.  Probably just a name drop, but hey, you never know.

Good on Mabel for not turning against the guys.  Yeah, the trio is going through a rough patch right now, but they're best friends, and Charles and Oliver are kind of like dads to Mabel.  And Charles and Oliver will find a way to make sure that Mabel keeps the apartment.

I hope so on all counts!

19 hours ago, cardigirl said:

I enjoyed Joy so much last season and was looking forward to seeing how that relationship had blossomed, but I guess the writers decided to make her kooky and not in a great way. Ugh. I love Andrea Martin, but like Charles, I'm looking for a way outta this relationship.  Why, why, why does she have to be dotty? 

This! I really liked Joy last season and found her touching and vulnerable. Now she just seems pushy, entitled, oblivious, and rude. Sigh.

17 hours ago, Snapdragon said:

I find it odd that Charles wouldn't be aware of all of Joy's crazy until now since they've already been dating a year but I'll just hand wave that away.   I do agree that Ben most likely wrote the pig comment himself after he ate an entire plate of cookies (or some other dessert). 

Also, am I the only one who was surprised that Selena Gomez and Ashley Park are only a year apart?  I assumed Park was closer to 40 but she's only 32.

I don't know how to put this, but Ashley Park, while very beautiful, also has the Uncanny Valley weirdness that makes me think she's having too much work done, even though she's way too young for it. I could be totally wrong, and I don't judge her or any woman for it -- Hollywood is not kind to women -- but Selena looks like a very pretty, normal woman in her early 30s, while Ashley has this sort of weird glazed, pinched look. (Again, she is gorgeous, so it's just an observation, more than a criticism.)

17 hours ago, peeayebee said:

That may have been my one laugh this ep. I didn't find the white room business funny. Classic Steve Martin, whom I love, but it just didn't work for me.

I like the in-joke about Ben using anti-aging serum. So that's why Paul Rudd never looks older!

Yeah, I cosign on both counts. I hated the white room stuff. It also looked impossible and clunkily staged. I didn't see Steve Martin there and go, "What did he DO?" in either scene. It just felt like a joke that didn't land.

I did love the "Paul Rudd is aging backwards" nods.

14 hours ago, sjankis630 said:

I still don't know why stage performers are not rehearsing at the theater? Can someone enlighten me on why they were locked out?

It's very common for them not to rehearse in a theatre, since theatres are massively expensive and cost a lot of money for every hour and minute.

So most rehearsals will be in big rehearsal spaces, although plenty have also taken place in occasional living rooms!

Edited August 23, 2023 by paramitch
poor people! ack!

[paigow]

Having a live piano player makes me expect Wayne Brady jumping out - singing a Hoedown...

[HelloooKitty]

I don’t enjoy it when our trio isn’t in sync- it stresses me out. 
 

I also think Ben (or Ben’s twin) left the message on the mirror. I  think that the reason he was so stressed about the  red mark is bc, if he’s sharing the role, the sibling doesn’t have the mark and they can’t switch out. 

[Quilt Fairy]

1 hour ago, paramitch said:

I still can't get over Mabel PAINTING OVER her gorgeous irreplaceable murals. And now being homeless. Aghgh. Obviously, I have issues.

You and me both.  Seeing her do that in the last ep of season 2 was horrible. 

Cinda's return was actually the highlight of the episode for me.  

[Lugal]

The White Room was funny the first time, with the Noodle-Incident kinda vibe, but it was diminishing returns for the rest of the ep.

I loved the gag with Kimber selling whatever she could. The "skin serum" that was Vaseline mixed with club soda, and it was a fun contrast with Cinda's Goop line. Which reminds me, just some advice for Mabel: The money won't be worth it.  Cinda's last assistant (and if you work for her, you will be treated as one) tried to frame her for murder.

On the suspects list: we've added Joy, but she's probably a red herring.  Kimber seems to be off the list for now.

[tennisgurl]

Paul Rudd really is aging backwards, its uncanny. How sure are we that he isn't a vampire? Or using some very fancy skin serum? 

It was fun seeing Cindra again, back in all of her smug glory, but now with a covering of New Wave Energy. Of course its all bullshit and Mabel saw through it immediately, but between feeling left out of the TRIO and her financial worries, I can see her being tempted by her offer. I don't think she would ever betray her guys, but she might think about it for a minute. Of course, Cindra takes all of the wrong lessons from this mess, what she really needed to learn was not to be such an asshole, and to maybe vet her employees better. 

I'm glad I'm not the only person who's totally obsessed with Mabel's sweaters. I really liked the shot of Mabel in her white sweater in the all white room contrasted with Charles's experience in the acting white room. I have no idea what happened there, but something horrible happened to that doll! 

I loved the description of pattering as the song you give someone who cant sing.

Charles sure can pick em. Even if Joy is a red herring, which I'm sure he is, I am not liking her so much this season. She seemed so nice last season but now it seems like she's turned into some kind of quirky mess. 

[chitowngirl]

I LOVED Mabel’s patchwork sweater, but it’s out of my league

[sistermagpie]

3 hours ago, paramitch said:

Why, why, why do rich people in movies always nobly turn down huge amounts of money as a cheap way of denoting their high ideals? As a fast shorthand to show us how good they are, how incorruptible? I mean, JFC.

 

I always have the same reaction--and I know you meant *poor* people are always turning down huge amounts of money. Because rich people, even in the real world, are never asked to do so. 

 

3 hours ago, paramitch said:

I am not really enjoying how utterly unaware Charles and Oliver are of what Mabel is going through. It just feels a little sad to me, watching Mabel deal with some genuine issues while Charles and Oliver are just off to the side, hogging the spotlight and obliviously, frantically, feeding their own egos.

I buy it, though. Especially because whatever they say about her having old lady energy, she's young, and to them that means she's in the fun time of her life. Think of what they were probably doing at her age. They think of that time as the good years and forget how it's not actually fun to be lost and living on the edge.

I had the same idea as others here about Ben writing to himself on the mirror. It would make sense if Joy was the one in his dressing room helping with whatever it was (maybe allergic reaction) on his face, since she's the make up person, right? So she probably is a red herring. Ha ha. Because a herring is a fish.

[Snazzy Daisy]

Our trio is together again! ❤️👍🏻

This is one of the funniest episode but it feels a bit filler-y.

Charles has been transported to the White Room 3 times. Number 3, again. Like Charles, Mabel also walks into her own White Room during the apartment viewing. Coincidentally, they’re both dealing and struggling with anxieties & uncertainties.

The squawking noise that Joy makes before they head to the bedroom and the monkey screeching noises that Charles hears in the White Room - they’re not the same.

Joy is coming on a bit too strong in this episode. She doesn’t come across as pushy before.

“Charlie, you are a grade A weirdo, but I’m good for you, and you’re good for me.”

Joy is obviously a red herring. And Ben wrote that F message on the mirror. Easy peasy!

[paigow]

3 hours ago, HelloooKitty said:

I also think Ben (or Ben’s twin) left the message on the mirror. I  think that the reason he was so stressed about the  red mark is bc, if he’s sharing the role, the sibling doesn’t have the mark and they can’t switch out. 

Is this Only Murders In The Prestige ?

[giovannif7]

10 hours ago, cardigirl said:

I enjoyed Joy so much last season and was looking forward to seeing how that relationship had blossomed, but I guess the writers decided to make her kooky and not in a great way. Ugh. I love Andrea Martin, but like Charles, I'm looking for a way outta this relationship.  Why, why, why does she have to be dotty? 

(snip)

I've been a huge fan of Andrea Martin and her off-center characters for 40+ years, so I was totally expecting Joy to veer into kooky/crazy on OMITB at some point. My main disappointment was that, with the reveal of the fish tank, we didn't get a (literal) shoutout to her SCTV kiddie show host Mrs. Falbo, who (after the theme song) would start the show by saying HELLO!!! to her fish:

Yes, I am old but I still remember the important things... 👴

[Ohiopirate02]

3 hours ago, Lugal said:

 

I loved the gag with Kimber selling whatever she could. The "skin serum" that was Vaseline mixed with club soda, and it was a fun contrast with Cinda's Goop line. Which reminds me, just some advice for Mabel: The money won't be worth it.  Cinda's last assistant (and if you work for her, you will be treated as one) tried to frame her for murder.

Kimber pulling a Caroline Calloway had me cackling.  

[DoctorAtomic]

I thought the 'red mark' was likely a pimple from eating too many cookies, and Ben just broke out. It's common to cover up pimples with makeup even if you're not on the stage. Which, after breaking out, Ben would write the message on the mirror being so mad at himself. 

I don't remember what Ben said when he first encountered the plate of fancy cookies at the read through. 

I also think Joy is a misdirect because this is the show. Charles also was very meta saying 'we can't have a third female killer in a row'. 

I thought the apartment realtor said $1400, and I turned on CC and it was $4800!

[Jordan Baker]

Every time Charles was transported to the White Room, all I could hear was the song of the same name by Cream.

If we're putting in our wish list for a Broadway star for next season's cast (assuming there is a next season), may I suggest Raul Esparza.

[callie lee 29]

I'll be honest, I didn't miss Meryl Streep. IMO, unpopular opinions, I think she's the the issue I have this season, every time she's on camera all I can think is "why is Meryl Streep in this scene", heck I just watched both episodes 3 & 4 tonight and right beforehand I read the thread on the last episode and had to think who Loretta was. 

They went to the White Room well too many times. Once was funny, two and three not so much.

It sucks that they turned Joy into a loon. She was fun last season.

Cinda may be a bitch but she ain't wrong with what she said to Mabel. I still wouldn't turn my back on her 

[JakeyJokes]

10 hours ago, Snapdragon said:

Also, am I the only one who was surprised that Selena tGomez and Ashley Park are only a year apart?  I assumed Park was closer to 40 but she's only 32.

Could be because of their different career trajectories. Selena was on TV since she was tiny. Ashley originated the Gretchen role in MEAN GIRLS on Broadway. (Six degrees of Tina Fey separation)

[secnarf]

10 hours ago, peeayebee said:

I think that Charles didn't actually propose to Joy, but she took advantage of his fugue state to pretend he asked.

That was how I read the scene too - something in Joy's face made me feel she plucked the ring out of Charles' hands and made up her own story.

[Yeah No]

Apparently according to a couple of articles online the white room is a thing in theater acting, although I'm not sure it's commonly called by that name.  At least the concept appears to be a thing.  Its use here didn't bother me so much, I thought it was funny, but I agree with others here that Charles going into that state 3 times in one episode was excessive and pushing it.  Could Joy or someone be drugging him?  Joy would have the most motive to do so given her recent wacko behavior and now this marriage proposal.  Even if she isn't the murderer it certainly seems likely that she is up to something if only to trap Charles into marrying her.

I also feel like so far we have not seen the building much at all, and as far as buildings are concerned in this episode the focus was on the theater.  I feel like the focus of the show in general is not where it was in the first two seasons and more on the play and Meryl Streep when she is in an episode, which I don't really love, although I have appreciated Meryl's character to a degree.  At least our crew is back together and the show is having the good sense to not feature Streep in every episode.  So there is that.

Also, one aspect that's bothering me is the absence of any police in this season so far.  If this is a murder why don't we see evidence of a police investigation?  They included that in the first two seasons.  We did not even see the penthouse or theater taped off for a crime scene investigation.  Even if our crew are not suspects they usually have some interaction with the person or people working on the case.  And given how things went down in the first two seasons and how they are known by the police, one would think they would have some kind of contact with them.  Or they could just show us the police asking questions of anyone involved with the play.  So far the episodes seem to be veering too far away from the actual crime solving into other plots including aspects of our crew's lives and while some of that is OK I feel like so far the show is sidetracking itself too much from the investigation aspect.  Hopefully as the season goes on it will get back on track.

 

[peeayebee]

16 hours ago, paramitch said:

It was genuinely sweet to see Charles making his customary tribute omelette, but Joy's reaction felt sort of cruel and dismissive. If they've been dating for a year, is this really their first conversation about it?

My first reaction to Joy in this conversation was that she was trying to sabotage him in some way in order to get him to quit the play and be with her. I'm not sure that's an accurate perception on my part, and I'm going to watch the ep again.

Quote

I loved Mabel's tiny apartment tour -- although it was underpriced for NYC. I have friends in Manhattan paying $5k who do not even have a full-sized fridge.

I expected the oven and fridge to be filthy, but they looked very clean and almost new. But the place is certainly a HUGE letdown from her fabulous apartment.

Quote

I am not really enjoying how utterly unaware Charles and Oliver are of what Mabel is going through. It just feels a little sad to me, watching Mabel deal with some genuine issues while Charles and Oliver are just off to the side, hogging the spotlight and obliviously, frantically, feeding their own egos.

I certainly have missed seeing the three of them work together, but knowing that they definitely would finally get together again made the rest ok for me. I wouldn't say Oliver and Charles were feeding their egos. Charles had the anxiety of doing the play AND having his girlfriend move in with him. Oliver was working on the play and struggling with all the mishaps and problems. 

 

11 hours ago, Snazzy Daisy said:

Charles has been transported to the White Room 3 times. Number 3, again. Like Charles, Mabel also walks into her own White Room during the apartment viewing. Coincidentally, they’re both dealing and struggling with anxieties & uncertainties.

And wasn't Oliver dressed all in white at some point?

12 hours ago, Snazzy Daisy said:

The squawking noise that Joy makes before they head to the bedroom and the monkey screeching noises that Charles hears in the White Room - they’re not the same.

I'm pretty sure they were the same. I thought it was weird when Joy told Charles that they hadn't done "the antelope" yet from the Kama Sutra, and then she did chimp sounds. I assume they had done some kind of "chimp position" or whatever sexual act before, but in any case, the sound stood out to me. Anyway, I'll look out for this during my rewatch.

[cardigirl]

I thought this was probably the weakest episode of season 3, thus far, and yet, I am still all in for the season. I love this idea, the characters, and the general feel of the program, so I'm always gonna want more. 

I rather like that they are giving the side characters a bit more and I also hope the original trio is back together soon. 

I'm not getting the vibe expressed after episode 3 about Loretta not making it out of the season alive, until Oliver sent that text, "Dinner?"  As we didn't see the reply, or her rehearsing with the group when Charles was doing  his patter song, maybe something is up.

Bring on next episode! 

 

[Rickster]

9 hours ago, Yeah No said:

 

Also, one aspect that's bothering me is the absence of any police in this season so far.  If this is a murder why don't we see evidence of a police investigation?  They included that in the first two seasons.  We did not even see the penthouse or theater taped off for a crime scene investigation.  Even if our crew are not suspects they usually have some interaction with the person or people working on the case.  And given how things went down in the first two seasons and how they are known by the police, one would think they would have some kind of contact with them.  Or they could just show us the police asking questions of anyone involved with the play.  So far the episodes seem to be veering too far away from the actual crime solving into other plots including aspects of our crew's lives and while some of that is OK I feel like so far the show is sidetracking itself too much from the investigation aspect.  Hopefully as the season goes on it will get back on track.

 

While I am enjoying the foray into musical theater and especially Martin Short this season, I do agree the balance is off and it doesn't seem very concerned with the mystery at all. The lack of any apparent police investigation is one aspect of this and is just weird. The musical rehearsals seem to have been going on for a while, so the case must have been investigated. Even if the conclusion was that it was accidental, it would be nice to know that, and the details of why.

One visit to the white room was more than enough.

[peeayebee]

I noticed a couple of things during my rewatch.

One -- and this was probably obvious to other viewers -- is the narration that Cinda does at the beginning is about creating a sanctuary or safe place with self-care rituals. Obviously Charles's safe place is the White Room. His self-care ritual is making omelettes. Later when he's talking to Joy about it, she dismisses it, saying it was a one-time stress relief. She says that he has her now. "I'm the omelette."

Cinda also narrates that a ritual that once healed can become our undoing. Does that mean Joy will be his undoing? Or simply that relying on the ritual (like making an omelette on stage) is wrong for him?

I don't quite get Joy. On the one hand, she encourages Charles, telling him he can do anything, like when he rollerskated in a Brazzos episode. But she also seems to just want him all to herself.

I noticed that in the first scene betw Joy and Charles, she is kind of frantically looking thru her makeup bag, obviously looking for the missing lipstick(s). I'm not saying this means she killed Ben, just that this was a bit of foreshadowing.

Mabel in the white apartment: She realizes that isn't her sanctuary.

I had read somewhere that Oliver was dressed in white at one point, but I didn't see this anywhere.

The thing with the monkey screeching at the end of the White Room scenes: The sound is not exactly like what Joy does, but they're both chimp vocalizations. I'm sure that has to be connecting Charles's anxiety to Joy. Plus, at the end of #2 and #3, there are the fish tank images -- the Statue of Liberty and the fishes swimming outside the windows. 

When Joy returns from the fish store with the treasure chest, the ring that Charles supposedly gave to her is there. After Charles's visit to the White Room in his apartment, he has the treasure chest necklace draped over his shoulder, and another item from the tank in his hand. Of course it's POSSIBLE that got the ring out of the fish tank and proposed, but Joy could have taken the stuff out of the tank to take advantage of the situation in order to say he proposed.

Funny bits from Short:

He suggests taking Loretta to the Russian Tea Room. "Or is that too Putin-y?"

When they're at the theatre in the hallway and Kimber comes out to ask what they're doing, they all try to look casual, with Mabel doing the bad "girl talk." Oliver leans against the wall in a ridiculous, very fake casual way. Kind of cracked me up.

[chaifan]

25 minutes ago, peeayebee said:

When Joy returns from the fish store with the treasure chest, the ring that Charles supposedly gave to her is there.

I was wondering where the ring came from, and assumed it meant that Charles was anticipating proposing to Joy at some point.  Which made no sense in context of the conversation he had with Oliver about asking her to move out.  But... if the ring is just a fake ring from the aquarium treasure chest, this makes a lot more sense. 

I'll admit, I'm a bit disappointed that they have Charles rethinking the relationship after only 2 days of Joy living with him.  That just doesn't seem to mesh with the character, especially the Charles we saw in Season 1.  I did love the omelette and pratter combo, though. 

OK, I'm with everyone who thinks Joy is a red herring, and also I hope so because having 2 of Charles' girlfriends be murderers is just mean.  I think I need to rewatch eps 1-3, because I have almost no memory of Ben's brother.  I love the theory that Ben is a twin or triplet, though.  And Kimber's observation of the red mark being there and then gone feeds into this. 

I don't know where I want Mabel to end up as far as a job and place to live.  I think it's unrealistic for her to stay at the Arconia, unemployed.  The only plausible way this can happen is for her aunt to sell the one apartment but, for some reason, buy a smaller one for Mabel to stay in.  I could sort of buy Mabel moving in with Charles, but that would be awkward.  I'd love for her to partner with Cinda, and I'm glad Cinda is back.

One thing that's bugging me...  what is the swag/banner wallpaper pattern in Oliver's living room?  It's ugly and distracting.  Is it supposed to *be* something?

 

 

[aghst]

15 hours ago, chitowngirl said:

I LOVED Mabel’s patchwork sweater, but it’s out of my league

Thing is, she was looking at a small apartment which costs $4800 a month plus other fees, which she can't afford, since we never see her work.

But she has an expensive wardrobe?

[Commando Cody]

I don't know if I missed something somewhere, but Joy suddenly moving in was kind of a wth. Where did that come from?

I have always liked Andrea Martin. I was happy to see her when the character was first introduced. After this episode, I hated her character. She was kind of over the top nutty - especially about the fish. I no longer saw what Charles liked about her or why he would want her to move in. 

I did like the white room scenes. Somehow, they reminded me of Steve Martin's earlier work. Today, I was thinking about the two wild and crazy guys bit Steve used to do with Dan Akroyd on SNL. Charles looked so happy to be there. He really needed to escape reality. 

[DoctorAtomic]

After the second meltdown, when they went into Oliver's office, I'm surprised Charles didn't just say that he was able to do the song when he made the omelette, so he was trying to recreate that. Oliver is enough of a director to grasp the concept and maybe have some ideas on how to get Charles back to that space. 

I can get why Charles didn't want to say anything in front of the whole cast. He already knows he's the worst singer. When they were alone though. They did talk about the larger issue of having Joy move in. 

[shapeshifter]

16 hours ago, chitowngirl said:

I LOVED Mabel’s patchwork sweater, but it’s out of my league

On Etsy a patchwork sweater goes for $50-$150. But remember Mabel knits. Or at least she has knitting needles. 😉

But I think she looked at the White Room apartment mainly as a step towards finding a place to live; she knows that price is way out of her league. She probably went to a broker and said she was looking for a studio, and that’s what she was shown.

About Charles’ 3 imaginary visits to the White Room:   
I took it as an overdone version of the Comic Triple (wikipedia.org/wiki/Rule_of_three_(writing)#Comedy), climaxing with the proposal. 
It wasn’t very funny, but my sense of humor isn’t very keen anyway, so I assumed some found it uproariously hysterical. 
But maybe it was just supposed to be absurdist?

 

[peeayebee]

1 hour ago, chaifan said:

I think I need to rewatch eps 1-3, because I have almost no memory of Ben's brother.  I love the theory that Ben is a twin or triplet, though. 

I feel the same on both counts. I can't even picture Ben's brother. And the theory that Ben is actually a triplet is very enticing, esp with the red mark business and various comments about him being nice at times while not nice at others. Maybe "Ben's brother" is not really his brother, though of course he could be and still not disrupt the idea that Ben is a twin. 

[peeayebee]

8 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

About Charles’ 3 imaginary visits to the White Room:   
I took it as an overdone version of the Comic Triple (wikipedia.org/wiki/Rule_of_three_(writing)#Comedy), climaxing with the proposal. 
It wasn’t very funny, but my sense of humor isn’t very keen anyway, so I assumed some found it uproariously hysterical. 
But maybe it was just supposed to be absurdist?

I think I'm always aware of triples in tv shows and movies, so this stood out to me.

I do think the whole White Room stuff, both during and after, is meant to be absurdist, as many things in this show are.

[ofmd]

12 hours ago, Yeah No said:

Also, one aspect that's bothering me is the absence of any police in this season so far.  If this is a murder why don't we see evidence of a police investigation?  They included that in the first two seasons.  We did not even see the penthouse or theater taped off for a crime scene investigation.  Even if our crew are not suspects they usually have some interaction with the person or people working on the case.  And given how things went down in the first two seasons and how they are known by the police, one would think they would have some kind of contact with them.  Or they could just show us the police asking questions of anyone involved with the play.  So far the episodes seem to be veering too far away from the actual crime solving into other plots including aspects of our crew's lives and while some of that is OK I feel like so far the show is sidetracking itself too much from the investigation aspect.  Hopefully as the season goes on it will get back on track.

 

 

I agree with everything. I also miss last season's detective, I'd like to see her sleuthing and rolling her eyes at our trio, plus maybe a quick check on her family.

As for the building, technically, the rehearsals take place in Oliver's apartment, but it still feels more like "the theater" for me than the Arconia, which in itself is/ should be a protagonist.

Edited August 23, 2023 by ofmd

[SeanBug]

On 8/22/2023 at 10:11 AM, cardigirl said:

I love Andrea Martin, but like Charles, I'm looking for a way outta this relationship.  Why, why, why does she have to be dotty? 

Andrea Martin plays a bad ass nun on "Evil", she is a hoot and also kills demons with a broom.   This Andrea Martin is giving me the heebie jeebies. 

[shapeshifter]

1 hour ago, SeanBug said:

Andrea Martin plays a bad ass nun on "Evil", she is a hoot and also kills demons with a broom.   This Andrea Martin is giving me the heebie jeebies. 

Andrea Martin as makeup artist and Charles' love interest Joy reminds me of Lily Tomlin as dippy Frankie Bergstein on Grace and Frankie (2015–2022).

I'm glad they made Joy a fish lady instead of the stereotypical crazy cat lady.

She probably is a red herring, but in this episode we do have this exchange of lines:

• [JOY] You thinking you need the omelet, that's a hard no. Hard no! That is a crutch.
• [CHARLES] Yeah, it's a crutch! That's good, right?
• [JOY] Look at me, lover. You have me now. I'm the omelet. Say it.
• [CHARLES] You're the omelet.
• [JOY] I'm gonna look out for you, Charlie. Just like I did with Ben Glenroy.