S04.E10: With Open Eyes

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, Moxie Cat said:

I don't believe he's as smart of a multi-dimensional chess player as we were led to believe.

I think "not as smart as they think" could apply to just about anyone on the show.

[Alexander Pope]

I am continuing to obsess about the Kendall/Roman hug and I think it is the emotional version of Wittgenstein's duck/rabbit or that dress that looks blue or gold to different people.  Kendall could have been strong-arming/abusing Roman, as many have suggested.  But Roman was also seeking out pain (pain and fighting are what he knows and needs, as was the case with him throwing himself into the crowd), and appeared to be grinding his head into Kendall's jacket (although at a certain point he wanted to let go and Kendall wouldn't let him).  Let's not forget that Roman was worrying that he didn't look wounded enough! He thought that if he looked too healed up, people would wonder why he wasn't chosen as CEO.  So to some eyes, Kendall did him a favor by reopening the wound.  I love and am frustrated by the ambiguity in equal measure!

Edited May 30, 2023 by Alexander Pope

[tennisgurl]

So ends the saga of the Roy's, both as a show and as a collective group in the shows universe because there is probably no way for them to come back from this one. I thought that was a solid ending, it feels like its the only way the story could end. The Roy siblings are brought down by their own flaws and insecurities while presumably Logan's ghosts cusses them all out for being such unimpressive people is pretty much what I expecting, there was no way that the three of them could keep a united front by the end. On the one hand, everyone is even richer than they were even before, Tom is CEO (didn't see that one coming) and even Greg has managed to hang on by the skin of his teeth. On the other hand, Tom is going to spend his life as a puppet for Matsson, married to a woman he knows doesn't love him, Greg might have his job but its under a guy who clearly disdains him, and the Roy siblings have totally blown it. Connor and Willa are the only people who seem to be doing well, even if even that is up in there depending on how that court case goes. 

Kendall in general is full of second hand cringe, but WOW was that board meeting hard to sit through. "Its a bad deal. Roman and I were really proud of it, but its a bad deal. Its a bad deal." Ouch, very convincing argument Kendall. Even worse was his response to Shiv saying that he would be a bad CEO, immediately having a screaming temper tantrum and getting into an actual physical fight with his siblings while the whole board watches from two rooms over, totally proving her right. I'm really not sure he's going to be alright after this, I kept waiting for the show to end with us finding his body floating in a river. 

Of course, I'm not sure that Shiv voted yes because she was concerned that Kendall was a bad choice for CEO so much as she is still bitter that one of her brothers is getting to be CEO instead of her, even though Shiv has always thought of herself as the smartest sibling. Now Shiv is basically where her mom was, the unhappy wife of a CEO with a child she isn't sure she wants. Its really brutal to see, Shiv has never been the player she thought she was, the same as her brothers. 

At least Roman has finally admitted that he's a piece of shit and that his family is total shit, which is more than his siblings have figured out at least, although who knows where he goes from here. Despite his attempts at being a big guy, he ends the show as he entered it, sitting alone in a bar, but weirdly its still a slightly more hopeful end than Shiv and Kendall got, at least he seems to have found some peace in his last scene, unlike Shiv and Kendall who both looked utterly crushed. 

Of course Caroline invites her kids, who are obviously having a terribly hard time, over not to check on them, but so her sleazeball husband can try to wring some money out of them. My sympathy for the Roy siblings is limited, but I can still be empathetic towards them when I remember who their parents were/are. 

I feel like this season really suffered from some padding in the middle, but these last few episodes really tied everything together. 

[Avabelle]

3 hours ago, buttersister said:

When you hear your wife wants an open marriage on your honeymoon, when your f-i-l is your lifeline (and now dead), when you will literally do anything to stay valid and you've swallowed enough shit to prove it, maybe Tom deserves a little moment of triumph for himself.

Hey absolutely, Tom has been shat on by Shiv over the course of the series there’s no denying that. My response isn’t to whether or not he deserved a triumph. I was responding to poster who thought him telling to Shiv he was the pick for CEO was done out of loyalty to her. I find the idea he was being in anyway honourable or by telling Shiv about it being him to be reaching. He told her because she’d sussed it.

[Blackie]

On 5/29/2023 at 11:19 AM, SnapHappy said:

The field trip to Barbados was ridiculous and wasted so much time.

Did they say it was Barbados, I thought they said something about Bimini which is Bahamas and is so much closer just to pop down to on a whim. Although when you are that rich you can just call up your private jet and pop anywhere,

[CatWarmer]

8 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Does Shiv have any friends, allies, partners or such that she can turn to either personally or professionally and trust? Right now, I'm thinking no. 

Nate Sofrelli?  Maybe she'll advise on the Jimenez campaign; she does seem to be keeping track of what is happening politically.  And she could expose what happened at ATN, although that would expose Tom.  Chief of Staff Shiv 😉?

[jeansheridan]

9 hours ago, Lassus said:

I'm a little bit confused about this, didn't he make an enemy of the Matsson party/GoJo with his vote?

Stewy made money, no matter what happened. I think he shook Tom's hand too. That's what I meant.

[7-Zark-7]

Connor’s future children’s birthday parties:

CONNOR: The idea is that Kendall will pop by on the first floor, Roman hangs out on the second, and you stay up here on the third. And I think that’s just the cleanest.

SHIV: Uh, okay. You think Kendall’s gonna pop by?

CONNOR: Spoke with his nurse... [Crosses fingers] He’s hoping.

Edited May 31, 2023 by 7-Zark-7

[RedDelicious]

12 hours ago, laurakaye said:

Jeremy Strong smiled so hard, his entire face got involved - his eyes, forehead, etc.  It was actually a bit jarring, as I don't think we've seen a true Kendall smile over the entirety of this show

We came close one time - in Tern Haven when Kendall and Naomi ran down the hill to the helicopters with the bottle of vodka. That was actually one of my favorite scenes (the running part) because he seemed to drop his so serious persona completely. But then he soiled his bed and it was all over 😬

[RedDelicious]

8 hours ago, Moxie Cat said:

he would finally get a genetic grandchild out of Shiv (and quite possibly his only one, ever)...

In the earliest episodes Roman had a wife, a wedding ring and a young daughter but they retconned both of them out pretty quickly. I think the last time we saw them was I Went to Market.

[Pestilentia]

16 hours ago, Blakeston said:

I don't think that Shiv's decision was calculated at all. I think it came from pure emotion. She just couldn't stomach her brother getting the top spot over her.

100% agree- she did it because she could. The last time she repeated "I just don't think you'd be good at it" to Kendall she pulled a smirk like nobody's business. I know that face- I've made that face. That is the face you make when you stick it to someone purely to piss them off and you enjoy doing it. Once she knew she wasn't getting it and Kendall lied to her face about killing the kid the fun was over and she was making certain that Kendall didn't get a damn thing that day. Purely sibling jealousy- I'm surprised she didn't toss in a  "Neener neener" to emphasize her utter delight in screwing him over.

As far as Shiv wanting to be a mother or raise her child better than she was raised? I have never ever seen Shiv act the least bit maternal- she rarely even looked at her DOG. Having never had a competent parent in her life she has zero frame of reference for parenting and no apparent interest in learning. I think that child is doomed to be as emotionally bereft as the rest of them- it hasn't a chance. Raised by narcissists, indeed.

[Johnny Dollar]

I can’t blame Shiv for voting against Kendall. GoJo obviously overpaid for Waystar.  Kendall would’ve screwed everything up a week after he took control. Shiv and Roman will have to live with the “guilt” of selling their family’s toxic legacy for a few billion dollars. I’m sure they’ll survive. 

[laurakaye]

15 hours ago, Alexander Pope said:

I am continuing to obsess about the Kendall/Roman hug and I think it is the emotional version of Wittgenstein's duck/rabbit or that dress that looks blue or gold to different people.  Kendall could have been strong-arming/abusing Roman, as many have suggested.  But Roman was also seeking out pain (pain and fighting are what he knows and needs, as was the case with him throwing himself into the crowd), and appeared to be grinding his head into Kendall's jacket (although at a certain point he wanted to let go and Kendall wouldn't let him).  Let's not forget that Roman was worrying that he didn't look wounded enough! He thought that if he looked too healed up, people would wonder why he wasn't chosen as CEO.  So to some eyes, Kendall did him a favor by reopening the wound.  I love and am frustrated by the ambiguity in equal measure!

Love this post, and I also love when a show gives me something to re-watch, think about, change my mind, watch again, etc.  For me it's Roman's smile/frown at the show's end when he's in the bar.  I initially read a lot into his facial expressions, mainly because Kieran Culkin is just so good.  Now, I think that he smiled when he tasted his martini because it reminded him of Geri, who - for better or worse - was once someone who gave him comfort within the context of their bizarre and fascinating relationship.  But he quickly realizes that she's out of his life, probably forever.  It was the smile of a person thinking about someone he'd loved and lost.  Maybe?  I'll have to watch it again.

[Milburn Stone]

On 5/28/2023 at 9:37 PM, Francie said:

The best possible ending. Seeing Roman smile and have him recognize he's better off?...I realize now that Roman being on his own and away from it all was the ending he needed.

I wish I felt as optimistic about Roman's future as you do. That smile...it was to a martini. 

[Milburn Stone]

On 5/29/2023 at 1:49 PM, sadie said:

So ultimately did Shiv decide she had more power as the wife of the CEO than the sister? I felt like that last scene was her residing herself to that fact, she had two choices and choosing Tom was the less awful of the two. Both choices sucked. Watching Tom slide into his new power was kind of chilling for me, for the first time he came across as calm and powerful vs insecure and desperate

For me the delicious dramatic irony is that Shiv, who has always treated Tom as a piece of lint on her blouse, has now found herself in the role of obedient wife, breeder, and helpmeet.

[jeansheridan]

I don't think making the timeline for this season roughly a week quite worked. I still give Armstrong credit for trying something new but he couldn't quite capture the weird, surreal feeling of losing a parent over the whole season. It felt more like weeks had passed between eps. So when Roman has a freak out and Shiv responds emotionally it makes sense on paper. Their dad died a week ago. They should still be reeliing.  But given all the jet setting and location changes, it doesn't feel right. 

Example: Connor had the apartment ready for tagging 48 hours after the funeral? It was funny and a great set piece but too fast. Could or would Marcia leave that fast? Shiv & Tom's recconciliation and breakup in 24 hours? 

I really think it was the Norway to LA that was a mistake. Everything that happened in LA could have been in New York. 

And Caroline's house was in Bermuda which is 2 hours by plane from NYC. A hop for them. But that was 4 separate planes! Oh boy.

[aghst]

1 hour ago, Milburn Stone said:

I wish I felt as optimistic about Roman's future as you do. That smile...it was to a martini. 

 

1 hour ago, Milburn Stone said:

For me the delicious dramatic irony is that Shiv, who has always treated Tom as a piece of lint on her blouse, has now found herself in the role of obedient wife, breeder, and helpmeet.

On different podcasts, I heard some interesting takes.

First the director Mark Mylod said he thought for a second the mask was off in that bar scene for Roman.  He doesn't see Roman getting better or happy.

 

In another podcast, someone observed that Shiv wants Tom more the worse he treats her instead of being her lapdog the first few years.

And it was a woman who said it, that unconsciously, Shiv was more attracted the worse Tom was to her, like betraying her in Italy and then the yelling match on the terrace and then taking the CEO job.

Maybe it worked on her because it wasn't dissimilar from the way Logan treated her.

[SnapHappy]

14 hours ago, Blackie said:

Did they say it was Barbados, I thought they said something about Bimini which is Bahamas and is so much closer just to pop down to on a whim. Although when you are that rich you can just call up your private jet and pop anywhere,

I SWORE it was Bimini too, in fact I had that first.  I thought I heard Kendall refer to it as "Bim".  Then I read the recap on the front page of this site & they said Barbados several times.  

But then I thought since Bimini is part of the Bahamas, it would probably be too low-brow and touristy for the family, so they would be in Barbados. 

I still think it was Bimini.  

[Macbeth1966]

21 hours ago, JenE4 said:

Whelp, King Lear is a tragedy, so it should have come as no surprise that there wasn’t a happy ending to be found here. I think Kendall and Shiv’s eulogies really said it all—how Logan was completely bereft of any emotion, and it was his heartlessness that made him a success in business. His three children all tried so hard to mimic his tenacity, but in the end it was their emotions that was their downfall. 

Roman was so confident during his practice eulogy, but became entirely undone seeing his father’s coffin. He tried to get his mojo back by confronting the protesters, and they just trampled him. He would never have that larger than life quality that would leave others trembling in awe, like his father had. The stitches on his forehead was a physical manifestation of his emotional wounds. When he questions that maybe it’s not that bad or people won’t notice, Kendall puts the screws on him—a brotherly embrace turning to a threat and a reopening of the wounds. Despite the bravado of the inappropriate “jokes,” you are a fragile little boy inside. You are nothing like your stone-cold father.

Kendall was similar. He has always been better about thinking a few steps ahead on a plan and can come in at the clutch with some persuasive words, even when they’re total bullshit. But he’s always walked this fine line of his depression and completely unraveling with any pushback, like his wife leaving town with the kids or his assistant quitting. He needs sycophants to hype himself up because he doesn’t have the confidence, which is why Shiv and Roman really had to go overboard with that “meal fit for a king” to prove to him that they were really backing him. But while he thought Roman wasn’t going to come back from crying at his father’s funeral, there was REALLY no coming back from verbally and physically assaulting his siblings in a glass fishbowl in direct view of the entire board and executive staff! I am really surprised that Kendall just looked at the water and didn’t try to drown himself. Incidentally I just read and article in which Jeremy Strong actually—and unscripted— did bolt towards the water because he also thought that’s what Kendall would have done, and the actor playing the bodyguard actually had to physically restrain him. 

I think it’s really interesting that Sarah Snook actually was pregnant, because I think it really defined Shiv’s direction. She was now over 20 weeks pregnant and hadn’t even told anyone! She wasn’t going to let a baby derail her career—pop it out and get back to work. And then she was forced to confront how how her parents raised her (or lack thereof) impacted her and her brothers with the funeral and visit with mom. She was fully onboard to become an “absentee mom” herself—but either way, she has no path to CEO. She’s edged out of the boys’ club once again. So what’s the lesser of two evils: No job and no husband, or no job and a loveless marriage of convenience so you don’t have to raise your kid alone? 

once Kendall put the article out there calling Mattison Shiv’s puppet instead of the other way around—and it was obvious she WAS telling him what to do to get the CEO job—you knew he would never give it to her. Shiv handed Tom to him on a silver platter saying he would suck the biggest dick in the room. THIS is the puppet Lucas wanted. Tom taught Greg everything he knows about being a yes man because he’s an even bigger yes man. In the end, Tom doesn’t “win” here, either. He’s to be the “pain sponge” while Lucas wields all the real power behind the scenes. Likewise, Greg will continue to be Tom’s “pain sponge”—but for a lot less money. 

I think Logan is laughing in his $5M mausoleum. None of them were “good enough” to run his company. Maybe from what we learned of his childhood he tried to “toughen up” his kids to end up just like him so they would “have what it takes” to lead. But they were all damaged in their own ways. And sadly after that sweet moment in mom’s kitchen, I think their relationship is now thoroughly beyond repair.

Oh, and, uh Connor is also someone who exists. Though even Kendall claims to be “the eldest son!!!” so they barely remember he exists.

I wanted to point out your quote re Kendall:

"But while he thought Roman wasn’t going to come back from crying at his father’s funeral, there was REALLY no coming back from verbally and physically assaulting his siblings in a glass fishbowl in direct view of the entire board and executive staff!"

When Roman and Kendall chased after Shiv, I laughed when I saw Stewie get up and place himself so that he had a good view of the epic shit show that was about to go down.   And boy did he get his money's worth.

When Kendall went back in to ask for another vote after his melt down with his siblings - the board looked at his as if he was insane.

Kendall would have been the only one to vote No.  He lost everybody.  He will never ever succeed in business again.  

[RedDelicious]

Bim is another name for Barbados used by the people who live there 🌴 

Also the water around Bimini is crystal blue from the white sand. Barbados is a lot more rocky, which we saw in the approach shots.

[Chicago Redshirt]

2 hours ago, jeansheridan said:

I don't think making the timeline for this season roughly a week quite worked. I still give Armstrong credit for trying something new but he couldn't quite capture the weird, surreal feeling of losing a parent over the whole season. It felt more like weeks had passed between eps. So when Roman has a freak out and Shiv responds emotionally it makes sense on paper. Their dad died a week ago. They should still be reeliing.  But given all the jet setting and location changes, it doesn't feel right. 

Example: Connor had the apartment ready for tagging 48 hours after the funeral? It was funny and a great set piece but too fast. Could or would Marcia leave that fast? Shiv & Tom's recconciliation and breakup in 24 hours? 

I really think it was the Norway to LA that was a mistake. Everything that happened in LA could have been in New York. 

And Caroline's house was in Bermuda which is 2 hours by plane from NYC. A hop for them. But that was 4 separate planes! Oh boy.

I imagine Marcia effectively had all but vacated the apartment and was for most practical purposes living in Paris or whatever fabulous European place she had chosen for herself. And much of having the place fit for tagging would have been taken care of anyway in the course of things because of them being ultra-rich: having people to clean up, sort stuff, etc. was a regular occurrence, and would have been doubled-down on during/after the wake. Even if we assume that Marcia hadn't already packed up any of the things that were purely hers or things that she wanted, perhaps Connor gave her a prior right to sticker things, just after he went. :)

I think the Shiv and Tom dynamic does play out better/make more sense if this season was over the course of several months rather than just one and a half weeks. Same with the notion of "too much hanging" with Matsson. 

[Karen885]

It will never stop being funny to me when Kendall refers to himself as "the eldest son".  That isn't even true, Connor is the eldest son. 

[PRgal]

On 5/29/2023 at 6:56 PM, chaifan said:

My favorite part of the episode was Connor doing the "Logan Roy sings I'm a little teapot" schtick on the video.  I wonder how much of that was scripted and how much was ad lib?  My biggest question of that scene was...  who was shooting the video??? 

At that moment, after seeing the camaraderie between Logan, Geri, Frank, Karl, etc., I had the most wonderful idea for a plot twist - the kids get the vote to squash the GoJo deal.  But immediately after, Frank makes a motion to remove Kendall as CEO in a vote of no confidence, and we get a montage of behind the scenes scheming of Geri, Frank and Karl, getting Stewy and Sandy/Sandi, etc. to go along with all of this.  There is unanimous (except for the kids) vote to remove Kendall, and Geri is instilled as CEO. 

Also, when Kendall and Roman were physically fighting, I envisioned one of them tackling the other, both going through the window plummeting to their deaths, and Shiv calmly walking back into the director's meeting, voting "no" and becoming CEO by default.

OK, so none of that happened.

If there was any big revelation in this episode it's that Greg sucks at math.  $200,000?  That's it?  He gave up a $250 million inheritance for a $200,000/year job?  The dot on the forehead scene was adorable, though. 

I'll admit, I didn't love this season.  I thought all the corporate plotting made for a boring storyline.  I just really didn't care who owned the company in end, who was CEO, etc.  The conversations between the kids, with no one ever uttering a complete, coherent sentence, was beginning to be nails on a chalkboard to me.  I was just tuning them all out during those scenes.  And two episodes devoted to an election that until then had been a rather background plot point was also boring me to tears.  ugh. 

 

But over time, though?  If he gets his inheritance, it's $250 M right off the bat.  And does it get taxed (I don't know about US tax laws)?  $200K will eventually increase.  And if he's good at investing, he could end up with more.  I get that 250M can be invested right away, and he could be at 1B within years, but he could also lose it all (if he, say, puts it all in crypto, for example).  

[Macbeth1966]

I always have to remember that Kendall is not a recovering addict - he is still an addict.

When he went into that meeting he had been up easily for 24 hours.  High on cocaine for the most part.  So he really didn't have the energy to sell the vote.  

And he reminded me of John Mulaney talking about his drug taking in college -  "Do my friends hate me or do I need some sleep."

Kendall needed some sleep.  However, I don't know with all the drugs he takes - I doubt he has had a clear head in a very long time.  And his family does hate him, so he was always going to end up on that bench at the end.

[Guest]

The first episode of the season, we saw that all Logan felt he really had at that point was Colin. So then when Kendall's arc ended with him all alone except Colin, there was a certain symmetry there.

[Chicago Redshirt]

20 hours ago, PRgal said:

But over time, though?  If he gets his inheritance, it's $250 M right off the bat.  And does it get taxed (I don't know about US tax laws)?  $200K will eventually increase.  And if he's good at investing, he could end up with more.  I get that 250M can be invested right away, and he could be at 1B within years, but he could also lose it all (if he, say, puts it all in crypto, for example).  

We don't know much about Ewan or how his will is set up other than he cut Greg out (or at least, I don't know...maybe it was established and I forgot/missed it).

Does Ewan have any living kids, beyond Greg's mom? Does he have any competing interests (besides Greenpeace) that he was going to leave bequests to? Was $250M Ewan's entire net worth, or just Greg's potential cut?

In any case, there was likely the prospect of the $200k salary just being a starting place. If Greg were to continue to suck up to the right people, he would potentially move up the corporate ladder and get increasingly high-profile positions and the salaries/stock options to go with them. It's not unlikely that Greg would be making $1M annually as some vice president of something or another soon. Not to mention there's the potential that Logan and his billions would be willing to will Greg more than the $250 M that Ewan had lined up. 

A few other things are worth touching on: The $250 M would only come when Ewan dies, which might be tomorrow or might be years/decades from now. There's potentially time between then and now for Greg to achieve the best of both worlds and smooth things over with Ewan to still retain his inheritance and yet milk Logan and Waystar for what he can. There's also potentially time for Ewan to find some other reason to disinherit Greg, so opting to side with Ewan doesn't even necessarily guarantee things. Also, (presumably) Greg's mom a) already has some money in her own right and would inherit from Ewan, which would ultimately get passed on to Greg. 

TLDR: Sticking with Ewan has a high floor but low ceiling. Opting for Logan has a low floor but the sky's the limit.

 

[ombelico]

On 5/31/2023 at 1:24 PM, Karen885 said:

It will never stop being funny to me when Kendall refers to himself as "the eldest son".  That isn't even true, Connor is the eldest son. 

Even better, it wasn't "eldest son," but "eldest boy." Further reiterating how he's still that 7-year-old on his dad's lap being told he will get the keys to the kingdom.

[paramitch]

I found this very satisfying across the board. It wasn't as showy or emotional as some previous episodes this season (for me those heights would include "Connor's Wedding" and "Church and State"), but I thought it did the job well.

I had an interesting revelation watching this episode -- it wasn't until Shiv walked out of the vote that I realized how badly I did not want Kendall to win. So I was basically fist-pumping through the final 20 minutes here.

As always, I loved everyone's comments here (I just bingewatched this later than the rest of the world, over the past 2 weeks)! And I'm really struck by how differently we are processing and reading certain aspects of this outcome.

For instance: I absolutely do not think Shiv's decision somehow damns her to being a traditional wife, or that she is somehow giving up her agency. Honestly, I just think she made the right call, from her gut, in the moment. She looked in Kendall's face and realized that her brother might want it more than anyone, but that he's also a pompous, unstable, narcissistic ass who will destroy the company. Lukas is also a pompous, unstable ass, but he has also shown himself to be fairly brilliant on the business side of things.

Shiv made the right call. And I was absolutely holding my breath when she said "Wait a minute," and went outside. I just never saw that coming. And I loved it, and I loved how every single word Kendall said after she did that SHOWED his panic and instability and ridiculous entitledness. The more he talked, the more she knew she was right -- and so did Roman (and oh, man, Kieran!). Roman has been so vile so often but he has these flashes of insight and he had it here now: "We are bullshit." And he said it with this awareness and relief, and you could see Shiv agree with him, with a similar relief. The entire fight for succession has always been stupid.

I absolutely do not think Shiv did what she did for Tom. I don't think Tom was in her thoughts for a moment there, honestly. All I think she was thinking was "Not Kendall." And she was right. As Kendall then proceeded to fall to pieces and become that arrogant seven year-old little heir apparent right in front of our faces, and it was sort of horrifying to watch.

So the vote, and Kendall's loss, was when I realized -- in that moment -- how very much I did not want Kendall to win, and how proud I was of Shiv, who I felt was acting with real brains, empathy, and awareness. The saddest part there for me was that you could see that Roman and Shiv were trying to make Kendall understand, to see that they still loved him (and I was thinking strongly of their funny, sweet evening together before), but that didn't entitle him to win. And Kendall could see none of it. He is blind to anything but himself. I honestly don't think other people are even real to him, most of the time.

Yeah, it's still a complex and sort of empty victory, and potentially a sad ending. I was surprised to see Tom wind up on top, but honestly I was just glad it wasn't Greg. I had this terror that Greg would be the idiot they put on the throne, and at least Tom, while a pandering bootlicker, is a competent businessman, whereas Greg is still a dudebro who seems to have no actual comprehension of business except that he wants to be close to the winners. (I do give him full points for the fabulous stealth use of his translation app to get the goods on Lukas -- that was brilliant. I don't think Greg is dumb. He's just young, and entitled, and an idiot.)

The final moment in the car was interesting. I loved the subtle compromise of Tom holding out his hand, and Shiv just sort of putting her hand on it, but not in it. To me it told us that Shiv is still reserving judgment and keeping her options open. That she and Tom may be okay -- or they may not. I do think she's strong enough to do what she needs to do in the future.

And I was moved by Roman's final little smile. His moment of true awareness, and that smile, make me think that maybe he will be okay. And just get away from all of this. He never wanted to be CEO anyway, he just wanted it because he thought he was supposed to want it, and because he would have done anything to please his monstrous father. I wish Roman well and hope he ends up a better person.

For me, the frustrating thing about Kendall is that this moment will define the rest of his life, and he will never stop obsessing about it, and he won't have that awareness Roman had -- that it didn't matter. That it never mattered. He will gnaw his injustices like a bone forever and make himself and everyone around himself miserable. And it's so stupid. He has almost unlimited money -- which is all the power anyone really needs. He could go forth and create something cool, or simply live a good life. But he has been molded to be a weak copy of his tyrant father and the only thing he knows how to do is want whatever he can't have.

So -- great episode. I was very happy.

Also, while everyone on this show has been breathtaking this season, if Kieran Culkin doesn't win, there is no justice in the world. Between his vulnerability, odd flashes of dignity/strength, and anguish this episode, and his grief last episode (and the mercurial constantly shifting vile/pitiable aspect of Roman all season-long), I just say give them all to him. Jeremy Strong is terrific, but Culkin is the one this season bringing me a complex character and performance I have never seen before on TV.

On 5/28/2023 at 8:43 PM, Racj82 said:

Not important at all but Shiv constantly ending statements with Yeah? drives me up a wall. They went overboard with all the kids doing it this episode.

But, it could just be me. Yeah?

On 5/28/2023 at 8:49 PM, pennben said:

That’s always been a Kendall tick, maybe she just picked it up here (character or actor)?

On 5/28/2023 at 9:37 PM, ruby24 said:

THIS. This is a British thing, I swear to god. Its always driven me nuts watching the show, because Americans (not me and none that I know!) don't talk like this. We don't. 

Armstrong has said in discussions about the show that this is a deliberate dialogue pattern he has given to all of the children in which they are subconsciously mirroring their father's speech. The "yeah?" vocal tic is something Logan did, a holdover from his European childhood.

On 5/28/2023 at 8:52 PM, Athena5217 said:

Caroline is a millionaire yet she saves the bread end pieces (aka “knobbies”) in the freezer. That may be the craziest part of this episode for me.

I loved that she complained about her beautiful fricking home and was so cheap all she had in the fridge was eggs and smelly cheese, and frozen bread-ends. I mean, it was just so "rich-people-miserly" of her. I had a very well-off grandparent who was similar.

On 5/28/2023 at 9:32 PM, marybennet said:

Yes, I think they both are doing it deliberately. They both know that Roman mixes up being loved and being hurt. 

This is perfectly said. It's 100% Roman, who will always conflate the two.

On 5/28/2023 at 10:34 PM, Chicago Redshirt said:

There are a couple ways to read Shiv's change of heart. But I don't think rivalry of Ken was at the forefront or at all a factor. She knows (or thinks she knows) that she is better than him in every way and that her dad thought of her as better in every way other than possibly her lack of a penis.

But seeing how Ken conducted himself in the board room very well could have cemented that he would have destroyed Waystar. He couldn't even manage to get the speech out that they should retain the company together, and couldn't line up the votes for it. 

This was very much my take as well. Shiv has a moment of real, pure clarity, and is like, "Nope. I love my brother and I know he wants it but I can't give it to him. That's not enough reason to destroy this company and what our family built."

On 5/29/2023 at 4:28 AM, BlackberryJam said:

Earlier in the episode, Shiv asked Tom about the possibility of reconciling so it's not like her choosing him came out of the blue. Tom wasn't into it until Mattson indicated that he (Lukas) and Shiv had sexual chemistry. 

I thought the scene between Tom and Lukas was interesting. Because Macfadyen is such a good actor, I loved that you could see Tom repulsed and angered by what Lukas was saying about Shiv, but that he was also controlled/ambitious/spineless enough not to react -- even when Lukas was plainly baiting him to do so.

I do think Tom loves Shiv. As much as he can love anyone.

On 5/29/2023 at 6:55 AM, Chicago Redshirt said:

I think sometimes that it irks me more when a show as brilliant as Succession has the contrivances it does.

There is no reason I can see that the cartoonist would have depicted Shiv pulling Matsson's strings. If anything, a cartoon that would have made sense was Matsson puppeteering Shiv, or all three of them, because as far as it could possibly appear to anyone on the outside, he was in complete control of the vote and was set to buy Waystar. Now, I could buy that Roman or Kendall planted the thought in the magazine (it seemed to be a Waystar property based on Shiv's offering to do something to the cartoonist) to unnerve Matsson but a. neither is smart enough to have come up with the move b. we weren't given any evidence of this. The only reason it's there is to set up the falling out between Matsson and Shiv.

I thought the cartoon was super believable -- first off, it was probably planted/encouraged by Kendall or his PR goons, and secondly, they are famous -- they are celebrities at a level Lukas isn't, simply due to their wealth and to the level of media scrutiny they have all received. So I bought that there might be a cartoon by someone who would assume -- simply due to her family and name and money -- that Shiv was calling the shots on Lukas.

On 5/29/2023 at 6:58 AM, BC4ME said:

I can't get over how telling it was when Shiv got in the car with Tom and he put out his hand and she just laid her hand over his in such a meaningful gesture of the half relationship that they would have. I wish that had been the last scene, not Kendal, because Tom won (for now). 

Again, Tom flipped the dynamic not only in power but in the actual feelings part of the relationship. He had wanted the marriage to work with some hints at actual love for Shiv. Then at the end Shiv seemed more vulnerable to actual feelings for Tom of at least for wanting to try again. Her keeping the baby might have made her want to stay with Tom on the emotional level.

In the end, Shiv became one of the typical Roy women, and the other two remained the failures that they were. In that sense (plus the fact this was her deal, minus her actually being in charge) Shiv won more than the brothers.    

I loved the "hand-holding" moment too. So subtle and beautifully acted by both!

I disagree that Shiv has somehow sold her power (as many here feel) or that she is now "one of the typical Roy women." I feel like she has more options now, not fewer. And it probably won't work out with Tom, but I think she's strong enough to leave if that's the case.

On 5/29/2023 at 8:30 AM, Penman61 said:

My own take now that we have the whole story is that all this talk of succession on Succession was really a MacGuffin. Or, to paraphrase the decades-proven wisdom of the classic movie WarGames: The only winning move is not to play.

The minute you mixed extreme paternal abuse and corporate succession, there was never going to be a good outcome for the Roy children. It just wasn't possible because they were seeking validation/approval not only from a person who could never give it--Logan Roy--but seeking it through a forum with its own incentives and cross-pressures: global corporate media. And these incentives are, to put it mildly, not conducive to gaining genuine parental acceptance and validation, even in the best of familial circumstances.

That's why I found the three siblings' endings very true and satisfying: Kendall is lost, with no idea who he is or what to do if he can't try to be Logan; Shiv is still caught up in playing the game as best she can, wielding attenuated power and seeking acceptance through a man she has utter contempt for; and Roman drinking alone but apparently starting to enjoy himself free of the game, whatever that means for him in his corroded, twisted soul--yet the only one who seems close to understanding that the only way to win is to get out of the game.

Really eloquently put. I disagree somewhat on Shiv -- I don't feel she's necessarily subservient or seeking acceptance from Tom -- but I 90% agree with you here. There was no way any one of the kids could or would win here -- even if they did win, they'd lose. That was why I was so moved by Roman going, "We're bullshit. We're bullshit." At least someone finally said it.

On 5/29/2023 at 9:19 AM, Eliot said:

Agree. I think what it showed was that Logan was the entire world to Kendall, Roman, and Shiv, but they were not his whole world.

It's so very sad and so very true.

On 5/29/2023 at 9:33 AM, RedDelicious said:

I don’t think Shiv would ever be a trad wife. She has absolutely no idea how and has always mocked Tom for his more traditional midwest upbringing. 

I was glad she voted yes for the simple fact that she knew her brothers would always screw her over. And now they won’t be able to ever again. 

What kills me is now they’re all free, but they are completely unaware. Except Roman. I think the smile is that he is aware, and the frown is how they got there and he still has a lot of grieving to do.

I see Kendall remaining estranged and Connor/Roman/Shiv forging better relationships now that the pressure is off.

I 100% agree with this. And Kendall will always feel like the victim and never see that he is in a cage of his own making. It's so frustrating.

On 5/29/2023 at 11:52 AM, millennium said:

Now we'll probably have to wait another three or four minutes before Alexander Skaarsgaard turns up in another series playing Alexander Skaarsgaard.

LOL! Thank you. I have to confess that while I thought he was okay here (better than usual), he is one of those actors I just don't get. He is handsome and charismatic, but I feel like you can always see him "acting." (I will never get over his winning the Emmy for "Big Little Lies," where I honestly thought his performance ranged from terrible to barely passable.)

On 5/29/2023 at 12:16 PM, jeansheridan said:

This is the joy of McFayden in this role. He has had moments of calmness. When the headquarters were raided by the feds and he was talking to advertisers he was steady and charming. He kept his nerve to always back Logan when it always seemed like Logan at best tolerated him. He was calm when Logan had his UTI insanity and calm when Logan died. But McFayden could also make him an idiot too and a bully. His bullying sucks but it feels more like a middle class man striving versus Ken and Roman's nastiness. 

He is a pain sponge. I think about how he took Karl's brutal assessment of him. How he took Roman's snideness. Kendall's condesation. I am pretty sure Marcia dumped on him once. And he soaked it all up.

This is wonderfully put. It's also exactly how I felt -- his being a "pain sponge" -- when Lukas was baiting him about wanting to sleep with Shiv. He was just soaking it up and moving on.

On 5/31/2023 at 6:11 AM, Milburn Stone said:

For me the delicious dramatic irony is that Shiv, who has always treated Tom as a piece of lint on her blouse, has now found herself in the role of obedient wife, breeder, and helpmeet.

I disagree. No matter what happens going forward, while Tom may now be a major CEO (at least in the short-term), Shiv is still miles beyond him in personal wealth (and let's not forget that savage prenup). She has plenty of power and options before her at any moment she chooses. 

Since I believe Shiv made her decision in a genuine (if rare) moment of clarity, I do think there is the possibility in the future for whatever happiness she chooses. And now she's free of this silly fight for a throne she (like Roman) never really wanted to begin with. Until Logan started gaslighting her into it.

While I was sad for Shiv at Tom's betrayal, I wasn't surprised, and I don't think she was, either. They've betrayed each other so many times at this point, it's basically a precursor to dinner, an hors d'oeuvre. 

Edited June 4, 2023 by paramitch

[Athena]

A satisfactory ending. I felt this season was even more uneven than the others because of the short time frame. I actually found the episodes hard to watch because of the constant shifting of allegiances and stupidity of the characters sometimes in trying to justify their actions. I missed the location porn which we barely got in this ep and a bit in the Norway ep.

 

On 5/29/2023 at 7:31 AM, Dminches said:

IShiv did exactly what Logan was doing with the original GoJo deal.  He had decided that if he was not going to run the company anymore neither were any of the family, namely the kids.  

In the end, there was no "succession" and probably never was going to be.

I never thought the kids would get it especially once they had this GoJo lined up. While this show is not the real world, Logan and the old guard knew this was a good deal. Frank, Karl, and Gerri said it as much to the kids saying that this was the future. The only people who were against it were the three kids. Logan said it last season when he made the deal. Kendall would run it into the ground. When Shiv stopped to think about it as the only person who was outside of the company, this is a good deal for the family and them.

 

On 5/29/2023 at 9:58 AM, BC4ME said:

I can't get over how telling it was when Shiv got in the car with Tom and he put out his hand and she just laid her hand over his in such a meaningful gesture of the half relationship that they would have. I wish that had been the last scene, not Kendal, because Tom won (for now).

I told my spouse that while Shiv put her hand on Tom's. Neither of them really moved to entwine it together. It was more like placed there rather than united. It's a tenuous alliance.

I've always thought Tom has some level of love for Shiv. Yes, it's off the back of his own brown nosing to the family but he's had moments where he genuinely wanted to love his wife. I also think they have more of a balanced relationship now.

Throughout the whole season, we've seen all the kids threaten and cut off all  any support they have left. Roman with Gerri. Shiv and Tom constantly off and on. Kendall with Rava and everyone in his life. In the end, Roman may be be better off alone for awhile and Shiv and him may have a better relationship in some way. Shiv and Tom are somewhat together. Kendall only has Colin like his Dad did but that's not a true personal relationship.

 

On 5/29/2023 at 5:26 PM, SlovakPrincess said:

Damn, that's bleak.  I'm not even sure Kendall deserves much sympathy, but he's just so needy and empty that it's hard not to feel bad for him.  

It's not clear Shiv had a clear reason for changing her mind at the last minute other than she simply couldn't bear to see Kendall get the coveted crown.  "You wouldn't be good at it" ... since when do any of them genuinely care about that?  I guess what she meant was "you don't deserve it more than the rest of us" (even though she no longer has a shot at it anyway) and she cannot let go of that.  Shiv is probably the most like Logan, at the end of the day -- sometimes, she's just cruel because she can be and if she thinks one of her siblings is gloating too much, she feels the need to take them down a peg.  You see glimmers of humanity from the others (at rare times), but Shiv has always been the coldest.  

Tom getting rewarded for his years of sucking up and punching down is ... probably quite realistic but yikes.  (I love the actor, cannot stand Tom the character lol).  

I guess Roman's just happy he doesn't have to pretend to be a businessman anymore. 

I didn't feel sorry for Kendall either especially after he back tracked about the kid and his temper tantrum about how he needed it. I actually felt good for Roman because I think he came to the same conclusion finally that their Dad did. They are all bullshit and not serious people. I really couldn't stand Roman for most of this season but I felt for him when he went to the bar after.

Whatever Shiv's reason, she knew Logan was right that Kendall wasn't right for the job and the sale was good for the company as a whole.

 

On 5/29/2023 at 8:23 PM, Jennifersdc said:

And I still cannot figure out what Cousin Greg did for a living. He seems to have even less skills than the other four idiots. Penchant for gossip? 

There are variations of Greg all over the corporate world who don't do much work at all. Greg's nepotism means he's shielded and can get away with doing very little. He'll always be ok. I learned not to have imposter syndrome at a young age when I saw corporate "consultants" and managers like Greg all over the place. These people truly don't do much and live off the back of their subs.

 

On 5/30/2023 at 12:07 AM, lucindabelle said:

Tom had a really happy smile when Shiv was suggesting they reconcile. He didn’t say no he just asked to think about it which was more than fair.

he also is NOT an incompetent manager. We saw him working extremely hard at ATN on election night and after. There’s everything to suggest that he is in fact good at looking at assets and cutting costs and doing actual business . He is no how to succeed in business fake; he’s just not a corporate superstar and not a corporate visionary.

I agree that he hated hearing Shiv dissed. And I think Shiv Was in her own way trying to get Mattson to keep him although saying she didn’t care. There is love there.

 

Agree that Tom is not an incompetent manager. He's fine being the figurehead and he knows the people who are actually good at what they do: Gerri, Karolina, Ebba. Out with the old guard. Even Greg has his uses. Tom having this skill means he's better than the kids.

 

On 5/30/2023 at 2:18 PM, Blakeston said:

You can see Shiv waver when Kendall sits in Logan's chair, and when he says "Let's do this for Dad." Seeing Kendall position himself as their father's successor was too much for her.

Yes she turned then because this was never about what their Dad wanted. Rejecting this deal is the complete opposite and it was delusional for Kendall to keep thinking it. I do agree that it was an emotional decision tinged with jealousy but again, this is actually being disloyal to their father.

[Guest]

On 6/4/2023 at 12:30 PM, paramitch said:

So the vote, and Kendall's loss, was when I realized -- in that moment -- how very much I did not want Kendall to win, and how proud I was of Shiv, who I felt was acting with real brains, empathy, and awareness. The saddest part there for me was that you could see that Roman and Shiv were trying to make Kendall understand, to see that they still loved him

I didn't see any of that from Shiv. If she had had business reasons for choosing Mattson, I think she would have said them. Instead, it seemed like she didn't want him to "win" over her, and then instead of Roman and Shiv trying to show that they loved him, they each threw something painful in his face - Shiv the death of the waiter (which had been so covered up that neither sibling knew about it unti he confessed in a time of vulnerability thinking they were trustworthy) and Roman implying his kids were "less than" due to not being biologically Kendall's.  

There would have been ways to show Shiv was looking out for the business in subtle ways, but I didn't see any of it.

[aghst]

Shiv could rationalize her emotional decision as saying the Gojo deal delivers the best value for the shares owned by family members.

But even Jesse Armstrong seems to be hinting in interviews that Shiv still has some tie to power, however tenuous.

Still, it's not some master stroke of strategy on her part.  It seems in the moment all the previous resentments and the reality of Kendall getting the throne hit her.

[Avabelle]

23 hours ago, deaja said:

I didn't see any of that from Shiv. If she had had business reasons for choosing Mattson, I think she would have said them. Instead, it seemed like she didn't want him to "win" over her, and then instead of Roman and Shiv trying to show that they loved him, they each threw something painful in his face - Shiv the death of the waiter (which had been so covered up that neither sibling knew about it unti he confessed in a time of vulnerability thinking they were trustworthy) and Roman implying his kids were "less than" due to not being biologically Kendall's.  

This. Shivs actions didn’t come from a place of logic or thoughtful insight - she acted purely out of spite. I do not understand the attempts at romanticising both why she fucked Kendall over or her last interaction with Tom. Sarah Snook is a fantastic actress but Shiv was no better than Kendall or Roman at the end. She didn’t want Kendall winning over her and that was the crux of it. 

[sistermagpie]

17 minutes ago, Avabelle said:

This. Shivs actions didn’t come from a place of logic or thoughtful insight - she acted purely out of spite. I do not understand the attempts at romanticising both why she fucked Kendall over or her last interaction with Tom. Sarah Snook is a fantastic actress but Shiv was no better than Kendall or Roman at the end. She didn’t want Kendall winning over her and that was the crux of it. 

I do think it's true that Shiv made a smart move in that she kept herself as close to power as she could. She's still in the game where her brothers are out. But she wanted to screw him over and wasn't thinking about anything besides winning herself in whatever form she could claw out. She defintely wasn't thinking of anything besides herself.

[paramitch]

It's interesting -- I'm trying not to quote Armstrong too much because even the actors don't agree with what they think the endings mean. So I admit I am totally picking and choosing my own POV here, although I have seen and read some of the interviews with Armstrong and much of the cast.

On 6/5/2023 at 1:35 PM, Athena said:

I didn't feel sorry for Kendall either especially after he back tracked about the kid and his temper tantrum about how he needed it. I actually felt good for Roman because I think he came to the same conclusion finally that their Dad did. They are all bullshit and not serious people. I really couldn't stand Roman for most of this season but I felt for him when he went to the bar after.

Whatever Shiv's reason, she knew Logan was right that Kendall wasn't right for the job and the sale was good for the company as a whole.

Yeah, that was me exactly -- especially as far as Roman, too. Well said.

On 6/5/2023 at 1:38 PM, deaja said:

I didn't see any of that from Shiv. If she had had business reasons for choosing Mattson, I think she would have said them. Instead, it seemed like she didn't want him to "win" over her, and then instead of Roman and Shiv trying to show that they loved him, they each threw something painful in his face - Shiv the death of the waiter (which had been so covered up that neither sibling knew about it unti he confessed in a time of vulnerability thinking they were trustworthy) and Roman implying his kids were "less than" due to not being biologically Kendall's.  

There would have been ways to show Shiv was looking out for the business in subtle ways, but I didn't see any of it.

To clarify, I think Shiv reacted emotionally in the moment -- when Kendall looks at her, she just cannot do it, she can't hand it over to him. But in my own interpretation, I don't think it was about Shiv wanting to beat Kendall or "winning," as her not wanting Kendall to have it, period. Simply because he's wrong for it, he can't do that job. He doesn't deserve it. Etc. And that's where the business aspect comes in -- she is smart enough to recognize the big picture.

I definitely agree that it got nasty, dark, and painful when he pushed back -- it was hard to watch. But I do think as the scene went on, you could see Shiv and Roman trying to get Kendall to understand, "You don't get this just because you think you should. We are bullshit."

There are a thousand reasons for Shiv not to give the crown to Kendall. I do think there was some genuine intellect to her decision, however, even if she was reacting mostly from her gut -- from the realization that Kendall shouldn't have it.

17 hours ago, aghst said:

Shiv could rationalize her emotional decision as saying the Gojo deal delivers the best value for the shares owned by family members.

But even Jesse Armstrong seems to be hinting in interviews that Shiv still has some tie to power, however tenuous.

Still, it's not some master stroke of strategy on her part.  It seems in the moment all the previous resentments and the reality of Kendall getting the throne hit her.

I don't think she rationalized it, though. She didn't have to. Although I think she's right that the Gojo deal was the right call.

I don't think it was a master stroke of strategy. It was simpler than that. But it was satisfying to watch.

Meanwhile, I think Shiv has a lot of ties to power -- and a lot of power, period -- if she still wants to wield it. I'm just not sure she still has a taste for the game anymore. And honestly, I hope she doesn't. I hope she has the baby, figures things out with Tom (or leaves  him), then goes off back into politics or tech and does something meaningful with her life.

1 hour ago, Avabelle said:

This. Shivs actions didn’t come from a place of logic or thoughtful insight - she acted purely out of spite. I do not understand the attempts at romanticising both why she fucked Kendall over or her last interaction with Tom. Sarah Snook is a fantastic actress but Shiv was no better than Kendall or Roman at the end. She didn’t want Kendall winning over her and that was the crux of it. 

To me, Shiv reacted powerfully and emotionally, but I didn't feel like it was spite. I felt like it was simply an incredible moment of emotion and revelation, of "you don't get this just because you want it, you spoiled little prince." Spite feels more shallow to me than what we saw. I feel like she did what she thought was genuinely right.

But I can definitely see why many people see it as spite. 

49 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

I do think it's true that Shiv made a smart move in that she kept herself as close to power as she could. She's still in the game where her brothers are out. But she wanted to screw him over and wasn't thinking about anything besides winning herself in whatever form she could claw out. She defintely wasn't thinking of anything besides herself.

I think the most important thing to her was, "Not you. It should never be you." Or that's how I see it. 

I think intellectually she was prepared to say yes as planned, but the moment came, and she had this massive horrified realization -- just, "Oh, shit, what am I doing?" and instead was like, "Sorry, Kendall, but nope nope nope."

But of course, YMMV! :) 

Edited June 6, 2023 by paramitch
fixed a reply

[SlovakPrincess]

It's worth repeating just how much Logan screwed up his children and doomed them to a life of bitter resentment notwithstanding their vast wealth (well, except for possibly Connor and maybe even Roman if he commits to years of therapy ... maybe).  

Logan never mentored his kids on how to be competent businesspeople (or even adults) ... but then berated them for not being serious people.  He encouraged them to take advantage of nepotism and never learn the business from the ground up or prove themselves, and to rely on but also disrespect the people who actually did know what they were doing or put in the long, thankless hours (Frank, Gerri, and even Tom the willing pain sponge, etc.).  

Logan lorded over them the fact that he built an empire and had nothing handed to him ... but he's the one who raised them to be entitled little shits and discouraged them from choosing a different career.  Only Connor and Shiv ever explored careers outside of Logan's corporate empire. But Connor is a dilettante who resented never being considered as CEO, and Shiv (who could've had her own identity in the political consulting world) is manipulated back into the fold by Logan.  

On some level, Logan would probably find it fitting that Tom ended up CEO.  Tom is "beneath" the Roys, but also a cutthroat striver, which Logan could certainly appreciate.  But why are the Roy children so comparatively entitled and incompetent?  Because of their parents (honorable mention to Caroline, who's a real piece of work ...)

AND ... probably the saddest part of all for Kendall is that he  is unable to be a present, decent father to his two children, or take any joy in this aspect of his life that could be completely separate from the toxic corporate world.  

Edited June 8, 2023 by SlovakPrincess

[lidarose9]

Tom was OK with pimping out his wife, metaphorically if not literally. And Shiv was OK with it too. Once she realized she could "win" by proxy with her lapdog husband in the driver's seat, she knew this was a great way to make her brothers pay for underestimating her.

Edited June 9, 2023 by lidarose9

[nb360]

Any one else miss watching this show on Sunday nights? 😢

[quirkygal]

On 5/30/2023 at 4:16 PM, Moxie Cat said:

Lost in the mire of Roman calling Ken's kids randos was Shiv hearing (and perhaps being reminded) that she's carrying the blood line. Gotta have an impact, imo.

Roman was quoting what his father thought and using Dad's words to hurt/abuse his brother. He shouldn't have said it - even if it's what Logan really thought - but he knew the quickest way to hurt Kendall was through the kids. 

Sadly it's not an uncommon thought amongst older folks or those obsessed with handing down their legacy. I've seen countless kind and loving grandparents try to cut out adopted children from inheritance and trusts.  It doesn't matter if it's a step-child or some "buy in rando" that was adopted into the family the overwhelming feeling is that they're not "really family" and it's up to the adoptive parents to look after the adopted kids and not the grandparents.

It's bizarre and wrong but it's a common belief I've seen regularly brought up in estate planning or legal consultations. Don't know what the law is everywhere but in NY state there is no legal difference between biological or adopted family members.

Anywhooo I think Roman is getting a bad rap on his dad's views.  He's problematic for a thousand and one other reasons but I don't think he views his niece and nephew differently than a biological child.

-+-+-+-+-+-+-

Moving on -

I really need to know what happened to the show's two breakout characters: Mondale and the giant bunny 🐇 Kendall got his kids.

[Shermie]

So we just binged the whole show; it’s the only way we watch most things now. 

And I’d say while it had its moments, I wouldn’t recommend it to anyone unless they really enjoy business-heavy blither-blather and terrible people accomplishing nothing.

I mean, what did these people actually DO besides talk and talk and talk about deals and counter deals. What did they do all day? Gawd, they’re all so useless. It sickens me that there are actually real people like them living large and not deserving one iota of it. They travel all over the world and don’t notice a thing about the beautiful places they’re in. They are served elaborate meals but don’t eat a thing (except Roman and Greg). Shiv is pregnant but continues drinking like it’s nothing. They fuck around on their S.O.s and ignore their children and are dismissive about everyone in the world who isn’t them. Ugh.

It didn’t really matter how the series ended, entertaining as the shenanigans were, because whoever “won” still won’t enjoy the fruits of their labour, such as it is. I don’t understand why they want to win anything (the business, the deal, etc) because it makes no difference to their life. They still don’t enjoy anything; they are completely joyless. So I don’t understand the point of it.

That said, the acting was top notch. Any awards they’ve won over the years are completely deserved. Those Culkin boys are mesmerizing, and I don’t know why. Even though Macauley Culkin wasn’t a typical cute 90s kid, he had charisma and charm that most mop-topped little boys lack. And Rory Culkin, again, not a handsome Hollywood type at all, but so charismatic. I can’t not watch him when he’s on screen.

So kudos to the cast for keeping me watching even though the plot was often draggy and repetitive, and their characters were hateful and pointless.

[anonymiss]

After binge-watching this show, I'm very disappointed by season 4 and the series finale. For entertainment, I love the characters of Tom, Greg,  Kendall, Logan's brother. I enjoyed Shiv until she shived her brother at the last second, causing the most possible damage. Change your mind any other time ffs. She is the worst. Also, Roman having a last minute breakdown over how it should have been him is truly the most delusional.