S04.E03: Connor's Wedding

[sistermagpie]

3 minutes ago, BlackberryJam said:

Yeah, and Tom quickly switched gears to, "Greg, go to the office, get this file from my computer, delete it, go to the trash bin, delete it from there..." The CYA was beginning. 

Tom did handle the Roy children well.

Tom has this unique position in terms of being both family and business--I mean, everyone is, but in Tom's case the two are in unique positions with each other. So he's the lead on dealing with the kids...but then also has to cover his ass businesswise because his position at the company is so entwined with being family.

Greg's his natural lackey in that, since Greg, too, has a unique position that way. Tom's professional position is more secure since he started as an actual employee who earned his job to start with, but Greg's family position is more secure than Tom's since he's blood.

[absnow54]

11 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

I know there's been some official things that say that, but to me it always seems like him being the middle child is like Roman clearly being married with a child in the pilot. His character changed, and it's now hard to believe that he's not the youngest because he so obviously seems like he is...so I go with that. Whatever they originally intended when he and Kendall both had kids, he's the youngest now.

Shiv is always listed as Logan's youngest child and only daughter. I agree that Roman radiates "youngest child energy" but Shiv is younger (Sarah Snook is even 5 years younger than Kieren Culkin)

[laurakaye]

2 hours ago, BlackberryJam said:

I think Shiv’s wardrobe is telling. She’s struggling emotionally. Her marriage is falling apart. She has no support, no friends, no one on her side. She’s in a lifelong battle with her brothers. 

Previously, she was a successful political consultant, a woman about to get married and then in control of her marriage. When Tom flipped, it took a lot of her power away. It’s reflected in her wardrobe.

Like Roman is always dressed like he just stopped wearing short pants, reminding us that he’s the youngest, he’s immature, he behaves like a naughty school boy.

Kendall alternates between power suits and “shady street corner drug dealer”.

I miss Shiv’s fabulous pants, but the costuming is deliberate.

Love this post.  I am as fascinated by what the Roy siblings are wearing almost as much as I am by the characters themselves.

I wondered why I felt uneasy at the start of the wedding portion of the episode, and I think it's because all three Roy kids were dressed in dark colors - Roman is known for his blues and pinks, and Shiv in particular was wearing all black.  Thinking back to how she dressed for her mother's wedding, the black dress/jacket was an interesting choice.  Foreshadowing?  And then I think, what would make Shiv Roy wear black to her brother's wedding?  The fact that her own marriage is imploding?  Even her hair was pulled back in a ponytail, a style that I don't recall ever seeing on Shiv.  It gives me a feeling that she pulled herself together at the last minute, but the black was certainly a choice.

Costume designer Emmys all around.

Edited April 11, 2023 by laurakaye

[Pj3422]

On 4/10/2023 at 11:58 AM, kittykat said:

I know people have mentioned Kerry as the leak but I'm kind thinking it's the woman Greg was talking to.  She threw out an "how's your uncle?" She's gotta know who he is right?  And, I mean, the leak has to inadvertently involve Greg right?

I’m thinking it might be the guy who was standing just outside the room the kids were meeting in. Check about 27 minutes in, as Kendall is leaving the room yelling into the phone for his dad’s doctor. 

[Moxie Cat]

23 hours ago, Blakeston said:

If he doesn't appear in half of this season's episodes, he'll be eligible for Best Guest Actor in a Drama Series. I think they're able to submit him in the lead category if they want to, but I'm not certain.

Apparently he might be eligible because:

Spoiler

Brian Cox said in interviews that Logan appears in flashbacks through the end of the season. I would imagine those will be at least 2 episodes, if not more.

 

[absnow54]

4 minutes ago, Pj3422 said:

I’m thinking it might be the guy who was standing just outside the room the kids were meeting in. Check about 27 minutes in, as Kendall is leaving the room yelling into the phone for his dad’s doctor. 

I ended up watching the episode a second time, and there were so many extras in every scene with the kids openly talking about their father's health. When Kendall was on the roof demanding the best "Airplane Medicine Doctor in the World" the camera zoomed out to show there were wedding guests sitting a few feet away outside the frame.

There was also a shot where Tom was finding a private spot to call Greg and there were a bunch of randos sitting in the back room. Press, maybe?

People also make a hobby of listening to air traffic control towers and Flight Aware, so there may have been speculation of a plane requiring an emergency landing, and the change of Waystar's flight path.

Basically, there were a ton of incidences where the news could have been leaked.

The incident reminded me of when Carrie Fisher died, and the reports started to leak mid-flight (obviously it leaked quickly because it was a commercial flight with a lot more witnesses)

[TV Diva Queen]

1 hour ago, laurakaye said:

Love this post.  I am as fascinated by what the Roy siblings are wearing almost as much as I am by the characters themselves.

I wondered why I felt uneasy at the start of the wedding portion of the episode, and I think it's because all three Roy kids were dressed in dark colors - Roman is known for his blues and pinks, and Shiv in particular was wearing all black.  Thinking back to how she dressed for her mother's wedding, the black dress/jacket was an interesting choice.  Foreshadowing?  And then I think, what would make Shiv Roy wear black to her brother's wedding?  The fact that her own marriage is imploding?  Even her hair was pulled back in a ponytail, a style that I don't recall ever seeing on Shiv.  It gives me a feeling that she pulled herself together at the last minute, but the black was certainly a choice.

Costume designer Emmys all around.

The thoughts are that they were all "groomsman"  that's why she was in a black suit.  

[Taget]

This episode was in some ways foreshadowed with Roman's talk of "killing dad."  And up to the end even if they told themselves otherwise at the very least Shiv and Kendall were drawn to whatever course of action would get back at their father.

Some of their anger is not just the loss of their father but the loss of having someone they got show up or get back at.

Not that Logan was a good dad.  Connor felt neglected and ignored because he was.  And while it may have been the best course for her we can bet that probably the locking up of his mother was not handled with grace, tact, or care.  The three other kids were bound to the company by their mom's divorce settlement and Logan did seem to have thought of seeing if one of them was worthy.  And none of them quite frankly have been.  I don't doubt when they say Logan hit Roman that it was probably pretty brutal.  And like some kids abused by distant fathers Roman may have seen it as the only way he can get his father to acknowledge he existed.  Thus encouraging rather than discouraging the behavior that spurred those beatings.

And this is where the show probably goes from here.  Shiv and Kendall are basically what they were before.  Neither without talents but both having a singular overriding confidence in their own abilities that causes them to trip over themselves.  While convincing others you are the smartest person in the room can have it's upside, deluding yourself that is always the case is another matter entirely.  Kendall seeks out sycophants and lets no one delude him of his fantasies (and to the extent they succeed they produce the opposite affect of pushing him into lethargy and hopelessness).  Shiv is more pragmatic and she can see other people's hypocrisies and where they go wrong.  But she looks down on everyone and devalues their intelligence and counsel in favor of her own.  She's the medical student who has enough knowledge to think she can do brain surgery and yet not enough to know that she really shouldn't.

Roman has the right idea in courting Gerri and trying to use her as a mentor.  He also knows enough to know the value of a conversation is to figure out what they know and what they are going to do rather than pontificating.  But self-control has always been his problem.  The question is whether it is an issue of "maturity" and something he'll outgrow.  Or if he's just a spoiled man-child ill suited to be anywhere near a modern board room where such idiosyncrasies have large risks of attracting highly adverse media attention and lawsuits.

Connor has stated he wanted in the company.  Everyone either condescends him or outright laughs in his face.  Instead he chose a course "parallel" to the company probably hoping to earn his father's respect by going into politics and expressing what are imitations of his father's politics that way rather than through media the family owned.  And perhaps getting some respect and adulation from the 1% he might get in an election even if not the 50% he'd need to win will get him the feeling of being "loved." Or more importantly get him the type of attention that maybe his dad might feel the least bit proud of him for.

I was of the opinion when the show started that Connor would be the best one to run the company.  And I still have that opinion and for the same reason.  Connor knows what he doesn't know.  A fringe benefit of having never been the least groomed for the job.  And would let the people who know what they are doing run it while providing the "vision.'  Which is the right-wing politics that will get him access to the important people.  He might have the potential to be say Steve Forbes.

Kendall will have them leverage everything on the metaverse or whatever strikes his fancy.  Shiv will get outsmarted by Pierce or anyone else and not even realize she lost.  And Roman is a walking class action lawsuit.  Unlike Kendall and Shiv he  might also be smart enough to know he should step aside and just collect the paychecks or be a figurehead.

But in the end the real question is are they smart enough to be like the Disney family and enjoy the profits or will they try to burn it all down for their own vain glory?  My money is on them burning it all down!

But my fear?  Something that must be in the back of your mind with the barbarians trying to bring down "prestige television" for baser profits.  A spinoff show for each of the kids to try to build a franchise.  Something Logan would approve but a trainwreck worthy of Connor's presidential campaign!

[Marley]

I watched this episode last night and I’m still thinking about it today. It honestly was such a good episode. Like someone else said I felt like I was going through the 5 stages a grief too. I thought it was a trick for so long and kept expecting Tom to be a part of it and Logan would just pop up. Then Keri came out and I thought she was smiling because Logan somehow made it. Just insane all around. Choosing to not show us him actually dying was a brilliant decision and then the obituary was fab too.

All around amazing episode.

Edited April 12, 2023 by Marley

[Hedgehog2022]

9 hours ago, chaifan said:

I would love for Logan to have bequeathed his control/shares of the company to Marcia (I have no idea if that is actually how things work, but whatever), so the kids are once again all vying for the #2 spot. 

Speaking of Marcia... she would have been an easy excuse for whatever delay the kids were trying to orchestrate for a hot second.  Kendall was right - whatever they did would be picked apart.  But saying, "yes, we did delay the announcement because we had to contact Marcia (and maybe even their own mother) and tell her before it hit the news" would be plausible and perfectly acceptable.  As others said, as soon as they talked about "the markets", I was thinking, um, isn't it a Saturday???  Again, I don't know how that works, but I thought "the markets" were closed on weekends. 

Shallow note:  What's with the wardrobe people this season?  I'm hating Shiv's wardrobe this season.  Can they please find her an outfit that doesn't include a blazer/jacket of some kind?  Even when she's in party or casual mode, she's wearing a jacket.  And geez, put her in some color.  We've only seen her in various tones of beige/brown and black.  She had a killer wardrobe the first 3 seasons.  What happened???  I loved Gerry's hat (and her hair style/make up) but the dress was ill fitting and rather stodgy for a boat wedding.  Even Willa's pre-reception outfit was rather boring for her. 

YES to everything you wrote! I think Marcia is going to be the big reveal. I see the actress who plays her is in the opening credits...she hasn't been on the show for a couple of seasons I believe. 

I noticed the Shiv look this season also...seems to be dowdy, unprofessional, messy...even her look for the wedding was terrible. The black frumpy dress and her hair looked awful...greasy mess just pulled back in an elastic band. Her outfit on one of the other episodes where she was wearing ultra baggy pallazo pants and a tank top with a jacket looked frumpy and inappropriate for business meetings. I have to think this a calculated move by the writers/director...I guess we'll see soon enough what this means in upcoming episodes.

[Hedgehog2022]

3 hours ago, absnow54 said:

Shiv is always listed as Logan's youngest child and only daughter. I agree that Roman radiates "youngest child energy" but Shiv is younger (Sarah Snook is even 5 years younger than Kieren Culkin)

This series is based on the Ruopert Murdoch family. Murdoch has two sons and a daughter with his second wife. He notoriously pitted these three children against each other to vie for "succession" to be the heir apparent. The Logan Roy character pretty much mirrors Rupert Murdoch's business deals, conservative activism and unrivaled hold on right wing media...newspapers, TV news, etc...it also draws resemblances to Murdoch's kids who competed against each other for succession and had similar hate/love sibling relationships that Murdoch seemed to enjoy poking. 

[MBayGal]

10 hours ago, chaifan said:

I'm hating Shiv's wardrobe this season.  Can they please find her an outfit that doesn't include a blazer/jacket of some kind?  Even when she's in party or casual mode, she's wearing a jacket.  And geez, put her in some color. 

She was pregnant during filming--baby due next month.  I think that explains the jackets.  But I don't know she is dressed in neutrals all the time.  

[sistermagpie]

54 minutes ago, Taget said:

I was of the opinion when the show started that Connor would be the best one to run the company.  And I still have that opinion and for the same reason.  Connor knows what he doesn't know.  A fringe benefit of having never been the least groomed for the job.  And would let the people who know what they are doing run it while providing the "vision.'  Which is the right-wing politics that will get him access to the important people.  He might have the potential to be say Steve Forbes.

 

Does he really know what he doesn't know? He thinks he's qualified to be president.

[Guest]

29 minutes ago, MBayGal said:

She was pregnant during filming--baby due next month.  I think that explains the jackets.  But I don't know she is dressed in neutrals all the time.  

I think Shiv is very muted this season and her wardrobe is reflecting that. (I’m sure there are also practical constraints with hiding a pregnancy, but I think this is more than that.) She feels out of place, so she’s trying to blend in. She doesn’t feel in control of any situation, so she’s not trying to stand out.

And this episode, I think it was foreshadowing. 

[Hedgehog2022]

10 hours ago, Haleth said:

She just had a baby so she must have been pretty pregnant when this was filmed. 

I don’t think so…don’t forget this was filmed from late 2021 through fall 2022. COVID protocols and multiple location shoots in various places kept the shooting schedule long.

[Johnny Dollar]

Great episode, but I wish it was the ninth episode and not the third. Just as everything is coming to a head between Logan and the kids and GoJo and Pierce they kill off the best character in the show. The show has been building up to this final confrontation between parent and children for over three season and I feel cheated. 

[Pestilentia]

Quote

Tom is another long shot candidate. Logan told him he wouldn't forget when Tom was willing to be the fall guy for the Cruise controversy.

Logan said a lot of things to a lot of people.  

I'm just wondering how badly Tom's tongue must be hurting after the day he had- you just know he's been biting it the entire time.
Tom is terrified- all that is swirling around in his head is fear of being left out of the future of Waystar/Royco. He wants so badly to babble to someone/anyone and knows he cannot broach the topic just yet- I'm enjoying watching him squirm.

His first thought was to cover his own ass by calling Greg to destroy files.
Heck, I even think his calling the kids/allowing them to speak to their dead father was at least calculated to some degree- he was doing a thing that would endear him to them/Shiv so she/they wouldn't throw him out on his ass after the dust settles.  

 

[Notwisconsin]

They will now address the title of the series.

[Dminches]

12 hours ago, Hedgehog2022 said:

I don’t think so…don’t forget this was filmed from late 2021 through fall 2022. COVID protocols and multiple location shoots in various places kept the shooting schedule long.

They started filming season 4 in June 2022.  

Snook is due mid-April 2023 which means she was pregnant in September. They were still filming in January 2023 so she could definitely been showing at that point.

 

My favorite character in this episode was Tom. He seemed to put aside his business goals in order to deal with the severity of the situation and to be able to help the kids deal with their father’s death. He was just different. At one point Shiv snapped and him and apologized and he took it in stride.

 

[laurakaye]

19 hours ago, TV Diva Queen said:

The thoughts are that they were all "groomsman"  that's why she was in a black suit.  

Ah, I completely forgot about that until I remembered the empty spaces during the ceremony where Kendall, Shiv and Roman were supposed to be.

It's still interesting that Shiv, as a major part of Connor's wedding, would arrive with hair untidily pulled back in a ponytail and very little makeup.  We've seen Shiv be full-on glamorous and this was far from that.

[sistermagpie]

4 hours ago, Johnny Dollar said:

Great episode, but I wish it was the ninth episode and not the third. Just as everything is coming to a head between Logan and the kids and GoJo and Pierce they kill off the best character in the show. The show has been building up to this final confrontation between parent and children for over three season and I feel cheated. 

I think that's the point. We've seen the final confrontation more than once. Logan just always wins. They could always believe that at some point things would be different, but it was always inevitable that he'd die and they'd just be flailing. There was no succession with Logan alive.

[SnarkAttack]

Does anyone know the timespan that the series is supposed to have covered?  

[booner29]

That was the weakest acting I've yet seen. That was not at all how you would grieve and I've gone thru my share. It was poor acting from all siblings.

[Hedgehog2022]

5 hours ago, Dminches said:

They started filming season 4 in June 2022.  

Snook is due mid-April 2023 which means she was pregnant in September. They were still filming in January 2023 so she could definitely been showing at that point.

 

My favorite character in this episode was Tom. He seemed to put aside his business goals in order to deal with the severity of the situation and to be able to help the kids deal with their father’s death. He was just different. At one point Shiv snapped and him and apologized and he took it in stride.

 

My bad...I think I might have been remembering reading about pre-production starting in late 2021...irregardless, her wardrobe could have seen around it with softer colors. The browns and blacks just looked tired and worn. But maybe, that was the point?

[absnow54]

3 hours ago, SnarkAttack said:

Does anyone know the timespan that the series is supposed to have covered?  

According to the HBO Podcast, season 4 is going to be 10 consecutive days, with an episode covering each day.

Vulture did an analysis, and it looks like approximately one year has passed between the Pilot and the season 4 premiere, since they both involve Logan's birthday. 

[BC4ME]

I know this is late into this topic but I keep thinking about Tom telling Kendall that he's seen Kendall get fucked a lot but he's never seen Logan get fucked once. 

So Logan goes out without ever getting fucked over. How would he have weathered all the media changes? He never has to be in that position really now. I mean, we can see it's coming, but he avoids it by dying. Kind of brilliant.

 

[Milburn Stone]

Shiv/Roman/Ken enjoyed the luxury of believing they could run the business smarter and make deals better than Logan. In truth, they needed Logan to win time after time not only because it kept them rich, but because it allowed them to keep telling themselves that lie. 

With no Logan, the lie has been pulled out from under them. They're clueless what to do, and clueless who they are.

[iMonrey]

I could totally relate to the phone call scenes. My parents lived across the country, and when my mother passed away after a very long illness, my father called and said he would put the phone next to her ear so I could say goodbye. It was very awkward, it wasn't clear whether she could actually hear me, and I was really too choked up to speak or know what to say.

If you should ever find yourself in Tom's position, please do not do that! Ask the person on the other end if they want you to do that. Do not presume and put them on the spot like that. It's horrible.

[BC4ME]

2 hours ago, absnow54 said:

According to the HBO Podcast, season 4 is going to be 10 consecutive days, with an episode covering each day.

Vulture did an analysis, and it looks like approximately one year has passed between the Pilot and the season 4 premiere, since they both involve Logan's birthday. 

Not that this tracks consistently with the show but the fake obit the LA Times wrote for Logan Roy claimed he was 84 when he died. He was 80 at his birthday in the first season.

Brian Cox is only 76 so not sure how he felt about that but he was probably fine with it. It's hard to tell his age actually. 

[Unclejosh]

I am pretty sure the whole series take place over 4 years. The pilot was Logan's 80th birthday and this season was his 84th. His "obit" says he was 84 as well.

Jinx!

[realityplease]

The L.A. Times got a flood of letters to the editor that complained about the fake obit for Logan Roy.   Not for the obit per se, but on two grounds:

1.  That the obit didn't have any spoiler alert at all - so absent any warning, folks who didn't see Sunday's airing & wanted to view it at a later time, learned of the plot twist before they could view the episode, spoiling the surprise.

2.  That the obit had only a small easily overlooked notice on its second page that it was about a fictional character, & therefore, not a real obituary.  Writers of the letters complained that increasingly the press is blurring the lines between reality & hard factual reporting - making it difficult for some members of the public to easily tell the difference. 

[Simon Boccanegra]

On 4/11/2023 at 5:51 PM, Hedgehog2022 said:

I think Marcia is going to be the big reveal. I see the actress who plays her is in the opening credits...she hasn't been on the show for a couple of seasons I believe. 

Marcia has been a more sporadic presence since Logan's affair with the Holly Hunter character, Rhea, but she hasn't completely vanished. She was in four episodes last season, including a brief appearance in the finale.

[absnow54]

15 hours ago, BC4ME said:

Not that this tracks consistently with the show but the fake obit the LA Times wrote for Logan Roy claimed he was 84 when he died. He was 80 at his birthday in the first season.

Brian Cox is only 76 so not sure how he felt about that but he was probably fine with it. It's hard to tell his age actually. 

I thought the LA Obit said "84... we think" or something tongue and cheek along those lines. The gap between season 1 and 2 was a couple of days. Kendall barely had any time to dry out before they plucked him from rehab. And then the gap between season 2 and 3 was mere minutes, because we followed Kendall out of the press conference. The gap between season 3 and 4 has been the only one to have an appreciable shift in time, but not a huge amount, because the deal still hasn't closed.

[Francie]

On 4/11/2023 at 5:01 PM, Hedgehog2022 said:

This series is based on the Ruopert Murdoch family. Murdoch has two sons and a daughter with his second wife. He notoriously pitted these three children against each other to vie for "succession" to be the heir apparent. The Logan Roy character pretty much mirrors Rupert Murdoch's business deals, conservative activism and unrivaled hold on right wing media...newspapers, TV news, etc...it also draws resemblances to Murdoch's kids who competed against each other for succession and had similar hate/love sibling relationships that Murdoch seemed to enjoy poking. 

Fun fact. It just came to light that a term of the Jerry Hall/Ruper Murdoch divorce settlement is that Jerry is not allowed to give storyline ideas to Succession. 

[Hedgehog2022]

16 hours ago, Simon Boccanegra said:

Marcia has been a more sporadic presence since Logan's affair with the Holly Hunter character, Rhea, but she hasn't completely vanished. She was in four episodes last season, including a brief appearance in the finale.

"Last season" seems so long ago I can't remember more specific scenes...but kudos on your recollections! 

[PRgal]

On 4/11/2023 at 8:36 AM, ichbin said:

I am really curious about the endgame for Greg in the series. Is he just there for laughs and to illustrate the intrinsic nastiness of the other characters (I.e. that "don't touch me" from hiv on the boat in this episode) or will there be something substantial for him in the end?  

 

I am as well.  And I get the sense that Greg's awkwardness is because he's neurodivergent and the writers are telling us that without him going on and on about being on the autism spectrum.

[cardigirl]

On 4/12/2023 at 6:12 PM, iMonrey said:

I could totally relate to the phone call scenes. My parents lived across the country, and when my mother passed away after a very long illness, my father called and said he would put the phone next to her ear so I could say goodbye. It was very awkward, it wasn't clear whether she could actually hear me, and I was really too choked up to speak or know what to say.

If you should ever find yourself in Tom's position, please do not do that! Ask the person on the other end if they want you to do that. Do not presume and put them on the spot like that. It's horrible.

I'm very sorry for your loss, iMonrey.  

I got the impression that Tom offered to do it, or asked at least if they wanted him to do it, so they could say good bye. While they found it awkward, they also wanted that opportunity. 

I had a friend pass away from a stroke this past winter. She was found at home, unconscious, and was in the hospital for a couple of days before she passed. The hospital set up a phone line so family members could call her and talk to her, even though she was unconscious.  I believe the calls came through on a speaker. The idea was that they didn't know what she would or would not hear, but this would provide the opportunity for people to tell her they loved her, in case she could hear them. 

[Francie]

It's just dawning on me that Logan died never having directed one of his epic insults at Gerri. Sure, he ordered Roman to fire her, but she at least survived ever having been on the receiving end of one of those dress downs. She avoided boar on the floor and having to make up some joke for his amusement.  In fact, she deftly avoided his humiliation games and verbal slings and arrows like she was wearing Wonder Woman's bracelets. 

So, no matter what happens to her in the future, kudos to Gerri for that!

[PRgal]

9 hours ago, Francie said:

It's just dawning on me that Logan died never having directed one of his epic insults at Gerri. Sure, he ordered Roman to fire her, but she at least survived ever having been on the receiving end of one of those dress downs. She avoided boar on the floor and having to make up some joke for his amusement.  In fact, she deftly avoided his humiliation games and verbal slings and arrows like she was wearing Wonder Woman's bracelets. 

So, no matter what happens to her in the future, kudos to Gerri for that!

And now the question is whether she'd even GET fired.  

[Bluesky]

On 4/9/2023 at 10:34 PM, Jaundiced Eye said:

Watching the siblings struggle to say goodbye to Logan was so sad. They finally managed to say they loved him, but first they had to say they'd never forgive him (Kendall), and there's "no excuse" for his actions (Shiv). Only Roman had the audacity to say he was a good dad. Poor Roman. He's going to have the hardest time dealing with his loss.

And poor Roman was the most damaged as the youngest by a cold cruel distant mother.   What will happen to him?

[Bluesky]

On 4/10/2023 at 9:50 AM, cardigirl said:

As devastated as Shiv was, she still got the jealous angry look when she thought Tom was getting ahead of her with preparing a statement. And the look she gave when he responded to her snark with a gentle remark about it being a very tough day was just so ... mean. Like Tom can't be affected by Logan's death? Tom doesn't have feelings worth thinking about per Shiv.

As sorry as I was for her devastation at the news, I still saw a flicker of the selfishness she has about herself. I don't know if she can be redeemed in my eyes of deserving happiness, or peace. 

We saw earlier that Tom was thinking about how the affects Tom and no one else. Tom Calling Greg to get rid of evidence of his no good shadiness in his office.  Laughing at Greg with an in appropriate joke.     Tom is a snake.

[jeansheridan]

On 4/11/2023 at 3:35 PM, sistermagpie said:

Does he really know what he doesn't know? He thinks he's qualified to be president.

In the US you just need to be born in the US and 35 years old and have a clean prison record to run for President. Truly that's it! And Connor does seem well read if not enlightened.

[lucindabelle]

Yes he’s TECHNICALLY qualified LOL. But not actually, as in “able to do the job.”

[sistermagpie]

19 hours ago, jeansheridan said:

In the US you just need to be born in the US and 35 years old and have a clean prison record to run for President. Truly that's it! And Connor does seem well read if not enlightened.

 

14 hours ago, lucindabelle said:

Yes he’s TECHNICALLY qualified LOL. But not actually, as in “able to do the job.”

Exactly. I mean, of course he can run for president. As Roman himself pointed out, he wants to go from having never had an job ever (however random books he's read) to having one of the most important jobs in the world without thinking he needs anything in betwee, like maybe working at a CVS.

And his main reason for running for president is he thinks rich guys like him pay too many taxes. He doesn't care about practically every problem he ought to take seriously.

[paramitch]

When this episode ended, I kept thinking of the opening credits sequence, and how it is a depiction of these isolated little rich kids whose faces are like sunflowers -- constantly seeking their father, turning toward him, even as he's absent or (at best) always leaving them -- he walks away from the balcony, the lawn, the porch, etc. 

And now he's left them in the biggest sense of all. Permanently. And they're all lost little kids still looking offstage wondering where he is.

Anyway. I've been bingewatching this and enjoying all of the comments here as I went along. I had a tough time getting into it (took me 3 tries to get through the pilot episode), but by episode 4 or so, it was like a runaway train, and just riveting, fascinating, and incredible TV.

This episode is definitely a culmination of all of that -- an incredibly moving and powerful episode of TV. It's such a distillation of everything the show is good at -- these are all such horrible people in varying shades, yet once again we see enough humanity beneath that veneer to be able to empathize.

For me, this was most epitomized by Tom's behavior on the plane. Tom can be a snide, bullying, slimy little toad, but as we have also seen, he still retains some capacity for dignity and even courage when put to the test, and his genuine kindness and gentleness with all the kids in giving them the news, and then letting them all say goodbye to their father (who he absolutely knows cannot hear them) moved me deeply. Of course, by the end of the episode he's recovered his snakeskin and jockeying again for relevance and position, but I do believe those moments were genuine.

And even though the kids and execs all began to wake up and strategize again in the end, I was still moved -- by Shiv calling Logan "Daddy," by Kendall's agonized farewell, by Connor's stricken reaction and odd dignity (Alan Ruck has been KILLING it this season), and most of all by Roman's desperate terror and love -- "You're a good dad, you were a good dad." Which of course was not remotely true -- and said by this child Logan hit viciously (and in front of us, even in adulthood, hard enough that he lost a TOOTH) -- the dog that Logan kicked who kept coming back. 

I can't stand all these people, and I loathe everything they stand for, but the show has made me care about them anyway. Aghghg.

On 4/10/2023 at 10:08 AM, Penman61 said:

My simplistic take on this entire show is that Logan was an absolute, incorrigible monster, and that his children are fighting (with various awarenesses and intensities) to deal with being raised by a monster and find their own humanity somewhere under all that sludge. 

So my hope is that just one of them--just one--takes Logan's death as an opportunity to check out of this Heartfuck Hotel, and just leave all this toxic dysfunction behind.

I want one Roy child--just one!--living on the coast of Oregon running a seashell shop with a dog named Bottles and getting high now and then. 

Beautifully said. This is what I wish for too -- I just want ONE of them to realize how stupid all of this is -- they already have everything a person could wish for. I just want to tell them to enjoy your incredibly privileged life and let all of this go. I mean, good God. I don't get the thirst for power. Maybe I grew up too poor to do that. All I can see is the stupidity and waste.

(I will forever be haunted by the image of the servants throwing away those mountains of freshly cooked lobster and gourmet food into the dumpsters.)

On 4/10/2023 at 11:50 AM, millennium said:

The surreal aspect of final-farewells-by-phone was perfectly captured.   My father died at the hospital during Covid.  Only my mother was allowed to be at the bedside  My siblings and I all said our goodbyes via group chat on the phone, knowing that once we hung up, that was it.   The End.   I don't know what was weirder, trying to say what I needed to say over a phone, or having to listen in silence as my brothers and sisters struggled to say their part.   I remember one of them, maybe one of their spouses, said "We'll miss you."  It struck me as hilariously absurd, like my father was going on vacation or moving to another part of the state.   Yeah, I wouldn't wish that scene on anyone.

I am so sorry for your loss, and for those of others here, as well. My mom died ten years ago, very suddenly, and I had to say goodbye on the phone as well. It was surreal. I found myself going on autopilot, just telling her I loved her, and that it was all right for her to let go, that we would be okay. I am honestly not sure she was able to still hear me (my sister said she could, but again, these are the kind things we say in those moments).

So the kids' farewells to her here brought up a lot for me. And felt so real and true to me, that desperation to find the right things to say. 

On 4/10/2023 at 12:03 PM, aghst said:

I think they had a genuine moment.

Willa didn't lie to him that money wasn't a factor.

And she joked that she isn't leaving him today, when he asked her if he postponed the wedding, he's scared she might leave him.

She was honest about the money and told him she was happy, which is also true.

I thought Willa was genuine and the moment was rather sweet, as well. Especially when connected to the night before, when Connor came home and found her in bed and waiting for him, and she took his hand. To me, there is something there -- that despite his frequent ridiculousness, Willa is moved by Connor's feelings for her, and does return them in some way. It's not great passion, but I do think there is a degree of care there. To me she wasn't just saying she is "happy" with the money, but that she is, for the moment, happy to be with him, happy with what they are.

The irony is of course that I would hate Connor IRL and everything he stands for. But that's this show, man. It's made me care about him. And Alan Ruck the past few episodes has been so filled with quiet pathos and dignity. The entire cast is peerless.

On 4/10/2023 at 1:07 PM, tennisgurl said:

The real irony is that, if Logan had just decided to go to Connor's wedding instead of blowing it off to take a business meeting, he might have actually survived. Someone could have called an ambulance and rushed him to the hospital if he wasn't on a plane, he might have been able to pull through. Or at the very least he could have seen his kids one last time, and I do think that he misses them in his own fucked up selfish way, but because he couldn't even bother going to his own sons wedding, Logan Roy, media and business tycoon, one of the wealthiest people on the planet, died on a toilet in a plane surrounded by lackeys. It all seems quite appropriate, Logan was about business over family and it finally killed him. 

This is so sad and so true. Really well said.

On 4/9/2023 at 8:01 PM, Simon Boccanegra said:

Even early in the episode, when I wasn't sure Logan was really going to die (he began the series by cheating death, after all), I was thinking that phone scene could be one of the iconic ones. It could be Succession's equivalent of Tony and Carmela's big marital argument in which he punches the wall, or D'Angelo yelling "Where's Wallace?" at Stringer, or the Red Wedding—one people think of when they hear the show's title. It was not only brilliantly executed but so informative about the characters. 

Roman says things like "You're going to be okay" with an upward inflection, a question mark at the end. He's on his firmest ground when he says he knows Logan will live because Logan is a monster, and he "just wins." Then he says some things we as viewers would find it hard to agree with: "You're a good man. You're a good dad." He cannot make them sound sincere, and he knows it. He has to hand off the phone at that point. Roman is the only one who does not say "I love you."

Beautifully put. I agree on this episode's place in TV history with all the moments you mention. I also found Roman's call the most moving out of all the kids, simply because as always, the way Kieran Culkin plays him shows us that child is so close and waiting beneath the surface, desperate for approval and love.

On 4/9/2023 at 8:08 PM, cardigirl said:

Roman is my favorite, and this episode he was the only one of the siblings that went onto the plane to see his father. I liked that very much. 

I absolutely do think that out of all the kids, however toxic it may be, that Roman loved his father most. The fact that he was the most abused also makes it terribly sad. But it was very moving to me that he was the one who went to the plane.

On 4/9/2023 at 8:13 PM, CharlizeCat said:

Here is Logan's "obituary" in the L.A. Times. I can't guarantee it won't be behind a subscriber paywall for everybody, but I was able to access it.

Also, it's great background for any viewers who started watching the series later, as I did. 

https://www.latimes.com/entertainment-arts/tv/story/2023-04-09/logan-roy-succession-dead-obituary

 

That was AMAZING. Thank you for sharing it!

On 4/10/2023 at 6:45 PM, Hedgehog2022 said:

Yet Roman was tasked with firing Gerri and felt crappy for doing his Dad’s dirty work. Logan Roy…a shithead to the very end.

That was so cruel. You could see Logan's enjoyment of, yet again, torturing his kids and underlings for his own amusement -- he found Roman's affair with Gerri distasteful and embarrassing, so all the more reason to make Roman fire her. It's just incredibly cruel. And I was so sad that Gerri could not give Roman a moment of sympathy after his father's death -- yes, what he did was cruel, but she (and we) could see that he was being forced to do it, and that he was visibly unwilling. 

On 4/11/2023 at 5:12 AM, chaifan said:

Shallow note:  What's with the wardrobe people this season?  I'm hating Shiv's wardrobe this season.  Can they please find her an outfit that doesn't include a blazer/jacket of some kind?  Even when she's in party or casual mode, she's wearing a jacket.  And geez, put her in some color.  We've only seen her in various tones of beige/brown and black.  She had a killer wardrobe the first 3 seasons.  What happened???  I loved Gerry's hat (and her hair style/make up) but the dress was ill fitting and rather stodgy for a boat wedding.  Even Willa's pre-reception outfit was rather boring for her. 

I honestly always love the way they style Shiv on the show -- I think she's a knockout, and in a way that feels very real-world and believable. The wardrobe this season is interesting -- all the suits and jackets almost feel like armor to me.

On 4/11/2023 at 7:17 AM, laurakaye said:

I rewound this scene too.  I have always been so impressed with the physicality that Kieran Culkin brings to Roman.  That sideways awkward grabbing of Conner seemed extremely real.  See also: Roman kind of sliding/falling onto the floor of the boat after saying goodbye, sitting cross-legged in a chair as the kids discussed the statement, resting his forehead on the doorjamb after Gerri walked away from him.  He is so good.  Give him all the Emmys.  Or make a new category for him, I don't care.

The whole idea of Logan being on that plane, with Tom's phone cutting in and out, and the continuation of the chest compressions on Logan, and everyone telling the kids that they weren't sure he was actually gone so the audience also wasn't sure - that was so beautifully unsettling, I think I forgot to breathe several times while watching.  The real-time aspect was brilliant and I will never forget it.

Ditto to all of this. And with the kudos to Kieran Culkin, who I really think is every bit as breathtaking as Jeremy Strong. Roman is so vile, but just when I hate him, he crumbles and shows me how weak that toxic surface really is.

On 4/11/2023 at 10:54 AM, laurakaye said:

Tom was so calm during the phone-to-Logan's-ear portion of the episode.  He deftly handled each Roy kid freaking out on him, while repeatedly telling them that he didn't know if Logan could hear them but look, tell him what you need to tell him...just talk to him...putting the phone to him now...here he is, just talk.  I found that touching.

But then, Tom called Greg and that's when Tom's tears started, but how much of that was him holding his emotions back while everything was happening on the plane and finally being able to process while talking to Greg, and how much was it his fear that his "protection" was gone?  

I thought both were equally true -- that Tom was genuinely being good, strong, kind, and comforting to the kids with the goodbyes even when he (and everyone around him) surely knew Logan could not hear them any longer.

Then his self-preservation kicked in even as he also began to physically react to the grief and stress. I can believe that Tom was genuinely grief-stricken while also going into self-protective work mode. It's just how these people are. Frank was very similar -- we could see that Frank was genuinely sad, but also that he was marshalling himself and going, "Well, here's what we/I have to do," etc. 

On 4/11/2023 at 2:40 PM, Taget said:

And this is where the show probably goes from here.  Shiv and Kendall are basically what they were before.  Neither without talents but both having a singular overriding confidence in their own abilities that causes them to trip over themselves.  While convincing others you are the smartest person in the room can have it's upside, deluding yourself that is always the case is another matter entirely.  Kendall seeks out sycophants and lets no one delude him of his fantasies (and to the extent they succeed they produce the opposite affect of pushing him into lethargy and hopelessness).  Shiv is more pragmatic and she can see other people's hypocrisies and where they go wrong.  But she looks down on everyone and devalues their intelligence and counsel in favor of her own.  She's the medical student who has enough knowledge to think she can do brain surgery and yet not enough to know that she really shouldn't.

Roman has the right idea in courting Gerri and trying to use her as a mentor.  He also knows enough to know the value of a conversation is to figure out what they know and what they are going to do rather than pontificating.  But self-control has always been his problem.  The question is whether it is an issue of "maturity" and something he'll outgrow.  Or if he's just a spoiled man-child ill suited to be anywhere near a modern board room where such idiosyncrasies have large risks of attracting highly adverse media attention and lawsuits.

Connor has stated he wanted in the company.  Everyone either condescends him or outright laughs in his face.  Instead he chose a course "parallel" to the company probably hoping to earn his father's respect by going into politics and expressing what are imitations of his father's politics that way rather than through media the family owned.  And perhaps getting some respect and adulation from the 1% he might get in an election even if not the 50% he'd need to win will get him the feeling of being "loved." Or more importantly get him the type of attention that maybe his dad might feel the least bit proud of him for.

I was of the opinion when the show started that Connor would be the best one to run the company.  And I still have that opinion and for the same reason.  Connor knows what he doesn't know.  A fringe benefit of having never been the least groomed for the job.  And would let the people who know what they are doing run it while providing the "vision.'  Which is the right-wing politics that will get him access to the important people.  He might have the potential to be say Steve Forbes.

Kendall will have them leverage everything on the metaverse or whatever strikes his fancy.  Shiv will get outsmarted by Pierce or anyone else and not even realize she lost.  And Roman is a walking class action lawsuit.  Unlike Kendall and Shiv he  might also be smart enough to know he should step aside and just collect the paychecks or be a figurehead.

But in the end the real question is are they smart enough to be like the Disney family and enjoy the profits or will they try to burn it all down for their own vain glory?  My money is on them burning it all down!

A really fantastic analysis of all the kids -- and I pretty much agree with you. Kendall knows too much, and has glimmers of brilliance, but he also doesn't know what he doesn't know, as you say. Same with Shiv. Roman seriously needs to step away and find something else and finish growing up -- he's an enfant terrible and utterly toxic on every level.

On 4/12/2023 at 2:18 PM, Milburn Stone said:

Shiv/Roman/Ken enjoyed the luxury of believing they could run the business smarter and make deals better than Logan. In truth, they needed Logan to win time after time not only because it kept them rich, but because it allowed them to keep telling themselves that lie. 

With no Logan, the lie has been pulled out from under them. They're clueless what to do, and clueless who they are.

Agreed. The rest of this season is going to be a slow-motion car wreck. The kids are utterly unprepared for what is coming.

[NotMySekrit2Tell]

8 hours ago, paramitch said:

Ditto to all of this. And with the kudos to Kieran Culkin, who I really think is every bit as breathtaking as Jeremy Strong. Roman is so vile, but just when I hate him, he crumbles and shows me how weak that toxic surface really is.

I have loved Kiernan ever since The Cider House Rules. I will never forget that scene in which he's given the task of telling all the younger orphans that the chronically ill little boy (played by Erik Per Sullivan) whom he just helped bury has "found a new home." He broke my heart in that scene, trying to hold it together and conceal his own sadness while selling a happy story to the other kids. He still breaks my heart on Succession, as a much less sympathetic character. 

[sistermagpie]

10 hours ago, paramitch said:

I absolutely do think that out of all the kids, however toxic it may be, that Roman loved his father most. The fact that he was the most abused also makes it terribly sad. But it was very moving to me that he was the one who went to the plane.

On 4/9/2023 at 11:13 PM, CharlizeCat said:

On the YT channel where a psychologist who specailizes in narcissists (so she loves this show) talked about them, she talked about how for Roman, being at the office was just playing dress up because for him it was all about his "trauma bond" with Logan. Seemed to really fit to me.

[headhoncho]

I thought this episode was so boring - I kept looking at my laptop just to "surf" while hoping things would pick up in the show - and like someone said earlier, the acting was just awful.

I'm putting off watching the next episode because I'm worried it will be just as bad - I loved the series up til now and this episode turned me right off - it was just so...drawn. out. and seemed to go on forever lol

I guess my main complaint is that the death seemed to come from left field and I probably wouldn't have hated the episode so much if they had built up to it even just a little.

Huge disappointment in what so far has been a great series

[sistermagpie]

45 minutes ago, headhoncho said:

I guess my main complaint is that the death seemed to come from left field and I probably wouldn't have hated the episode so much if they had built up to it even just a little.

 

Not sure what you mean by "leading up to it?" He was a senior citizen who'd already had multiple health issues. A fatal heart attack just happening when it happens is pretty standard. It was a deliberately out of left field moment, but Logan's approaching death has hung over the show since the beginning.

[headhoncho]

15 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Not sure what you mean by "leading up to it?" He was a senior citizen who'd already had multiple health issues. A fatal heart attack just happening when it happens is pretty standard. It was a deliberately out of left field moment, but Logan's approaching death has hung over the show since the beginning.

I guess I just wanted to have seen him in the bathroom and getting short of breath - that's all I would have wanted, then switch back to the kids' plane - and then hopefully not drag it out so danged long - it was just excruciating, and like others have stated, I sat there wondering if it was some kind of sick joke