S01.E04: Please Hold My Hand

[Whimsy]

Quote

After abandoning their truck in Kansas City, Joel and Ellie attempt to escape without drawing the attention of a vindictive rebel leader.

Original airdate 2/5/23

[AnimeMania]

Melanie Lynskey as Kathleen 

Jeffrey Pierce as Perry

[AimingforYoko]

Kathleen's quest for vengeance kind of reminds me of when the Allies liberated Europe in WWII and all the collaborators were rounded up for payback.

Ellie is both sweet and annoying. Isn't that fourteen in a nutshell?

[Lady Whistleup]

I enjoyed Ellie and Joel laughing. Otherwise, this episode a bit of a letdown after last week's. I'm guessing the guy at the end is Henry?

[sandrajane]

11 minutes ago, Lady Whistleup said:

I enjoyed Ellie and Joel laughing. Otherwise, this episode a bit of a letdown after last week's. I'm guessing the guy at the end is Henry?

That's not a guy, it's a boy.  The actor is 9 years old.

[HC87]

Good ep overall although not much seemed to happen moving the bigger picture. 

Liked the interplay between Joel and Ellie....gaining chemistry between them.

 

[paigow]

Hope those brothers have a lot of extra guns and ammo... maybe that super monster will break out and distract everyone so Joel can steal another car

[cardigirl]

I didn't catch why Joel decided to go through a city. Seems he should've stuck to the backroads. 

[Dev F]

20 minutes ago, sandrajane said:

That's not a guy, it's a boy.  The actor is 9 years old.

There are two characters holding guns on our heroes in the final scene: the little boy with a red mask painted on his face, who has the gun on Joel, and the grown man in a puffy red coat, whose gun is pointed at Ellie.

[wanderingstar]

Gripping episode. The tension on this show is constant. Even when Joel and Ellie are in moments of relative ease, I'm waiting for something to pop off.

Loved Ellie's book of silly jokes. And I laughed right along with her and Joel at that goofy diarrhea joke.

Kathleen and her group are proper terrifying.

[magdalene]

Of course that group that over threw Fedra is worse than them.  That woman who leads them is a big problem to face.   They need to kill her.

[peridot]

It's sad that Bill's truck was damaged and all of those supplies were pilfered.  It was eerie to see the empty forest, I don't blame Joel for being paranoid.

You don't normally see damaged or handicapped characters in these type of shows, I didn't realize that Joel had a hearing problem.  That ups the stakes significantly.  I would not have managed to climb up 30-something flights of stairs!  It seems Joel did it without any breaks, too.

I have no idea what that depression was that Kathleen and that guy saw.  I'm looking forward to next week, just to see what that is.

Kathleen is after those kids because the teenager gave her brother's name to FEDRA?  I guess she and the town rose up against FEDRA and decided to run things on their own.  I wonder if she's planning on killing just the older one, or both? Is there any difference between her group and FEDRA?

[aghst]

Inside the Episode says Kathleen and Perry are not in the game.  They created the roles.  Kathleen is suppose to be a complicated character, even though she’s shown to be ruthless.

I guess this episode is suppose to show the difficult moral choices people have made.  Joel wouldn’t answer Ellie’s question whether he’s killed innocent people.  So maybe Kathleen ends up not being too different from Joel, who says he’s been on both sides of ambushes.

This group won’t let people just pass through, they wanted to kill them as well as take their stuff.  So if you don’t know where your next meal is coming from, you take it from strangers who may not be hostile and kill them?

Bryan and those other guys got more than they bargained for though.

 

[Starchild]

36 minutes ago, peridot said:

I have no idea what that depression was that Kathleen and that guy saw.  I'm looking forward to next week, just to see what that is.

It made me think back to Boston and all that fungus growing in the street. I've seen weeds pop up from cracks in pavement. So at the moment I'm guessing it's a wad of cordyceps that's about to burst through the floor.

[MrWhyt]

as mentioned bit of a letdown from last week still nice to see the Joel/Ellie relationship growing. Joel stashing his rifle last week cause "there isn't much ammo out there" for it is kind of bullshit, the M-16/M-4 is the standard rifle of the US military and the AR-15 is super common in the civilian world, there is going to plenty of ammo for it around. 

[Constantinople]

15 hours ago, cardigirl said:

I didn't catch why Joel decided to go through a city. Seems he should've stuck to the backroads. 

It appears Joel made an impulsive decision and a bad one, saying "Screw it" to Ellie after she asked how long they'd have to backtrack. I'm guessing Joel had some fixed timeline in his head for how long it should take to get to Wyoming.

That said it was still odd given how careful Joel was as shown to be earlier in the episode. When he wanted to sleep he didn't just park by the side of the road or in the open field but in the woods. Then he told Ellie no fires because it might attract other people. I would think they'd be more likely to run into people driving through a large city than in the middle of the woods.

And Joel and Ellie seemed to expect that FEDRA would be running Kansas City till they actually got in the city. But we've already seen what FEDRA does to people they catch sneaking in or out of Boston. So why drive through Kansas City?

Maybe Joel was trying to get Patrick Mahomes's autograph before the Chiefs flew to Arizona for next week's Super Bowl.

 

Edited February 6, 2023 by Constantinople

[thuganomics85]

Cool seeing Jeffery Pierce as Perry/Kathleen's number one, since he played Tommy in the video game.  Can't wait to see who shows up next!

Knew this episode wasn't going to be quite as compelling and emotional as last week, but I'm continuing to like how they build upon the relationship between Joel and Ellie, and seeing something that is resembling a bond going forward.  Wherever it is fending off dumb puns or giving advice for when you have to kill people, Joel clearly sees Ellie more than just "cargo", despite his claims earlier.  Again, Pedro Pascal and Bella Ramsey really play off one another extremely well.

I'm guessing we'll learn more about Kathleen and her organization next episode, but I like the idea about how a rebellion can succeed but the victors still end up almost being just as bad as the initial oppressors.  It just seems like war in general brings out the worst in humanity, and I can see a group like this continuing to go down this path once their plucky underdog status is no longer intact.  Not every rebellion is like Star Wars!

I'm guessing Bill forgot about that particular magazine before he left the car to Joel!

Yeah, I have a real bad feeling about that particular depressed ground Perry discovered.  Kathleen's probably going to regret saving that for "later."

[LoveLeigh]

4 hours ago, HC87 said:

Liked the interplay between Joel and Ellie....gaining chemistry between them.

 

There is chemistry and then there is acting that infuses scenes with unintentional elements which open the window for wrong conclusions.

I actually came here to say that some of the scenes between Joel and Ellie make me uncomfortable. I felt like this last week when they were in the car, when he told her to put on her seatbelt, but kept quiet about it but after this week.... I don't know it could be me and the personal history I bring to the show. 

The "chemistry" at times between them gets too close for comfort. The way she giggles and laughs, it could be how the actor playing Ellie makes those scenes almost flirtatious... I don't know. And I hesitate to say that is what I sometimes see.... 

I think the director could have done a better job with having the actors stay in character and not blur the lines that establish boundaries. Joel is NOT Ellie's father. 

[Haleth]

I guess Joel was trying to save time by going right through the city rather than around it?  Most larger cities (not sure about KC) have bypasses so you don't have to get stuck in downtown traffic.  He probably should have foreseen that there would be cars blocking the highway inside the city.  So much for the shortcut!

So Henry and Sam are brothers?  I was expecting father/son.  That quick glimpse of Henry didn't let me judge his age.

Love that Joel is thawing wrt Ellie.  Loved that they both laughed over her stupid jokes.

[cambridgeguy]

If they're driving through Kansas City to get to Wyoming from Boston then they're taking the scenic route.  Maybe they encountered similar problems earlier, which would explain why Joel was impatient enough to try driving through the city.

[aghst]

They said they chose KC for this episode because they film in Calgary and thought it could look like KC.

In the game, this stop is in another city.

[Sundazed]

I was pleasantly surprised to see Melanie Lynskey as the ruthless rebel leader, whom I had assumed would be a man when I read the episode description prior to watching.  Glad she was able to fit this in while also working on Yellowjackets! 

[DigitalCount]

6 hours ago, LoveLeigh said:

There is chemistry and then there is acting that infuses scenes with unintentional elements which open the window for wrong conclusions.

I actually came here to say that some of the scenes between Joel and Ellie make me uncomfortable. I felt like this last week when they were in the car, when he told her to put on her seatbelt, but kept quiet about it but after this week.... I don't know it could be me and the personal history I bring to the show. 

The "chemistry" at times between them gets too close for comfort. The way she giggles and laughs, it could be how the actor playing Ellie makes those scenes almost flirtatious... I don't know. And I hesitate to say that is what I sometimes see.... 

I think the director could have done a better job with having the actors stay in character and not blur the lines that establish boundaries. Joel is NOT Ellie's father. 

I am also a bit hesitant, because strictly speaking, I didn't see it that way, but as I was watching...I definitely thought that it could be seen that way. It didn't give me the wiggins, but I can understand if it did for other people. I don't think you're making something out of nothing.

But I also think that there's something that we're supposed to find a bit uncomfortable (though more in a father-daughter sense). I don't believe for a second that he's taking this trip purely because Tess asked him to, even though that's part of it. Like you said, Joel is not Ellie's father, but I think he's really having this sense of transference that is not exactly healthy. It's useful, because it makes him more devoted to the cause of getting her where she needs to go, but it's not coming from a great place. He wants a second chance to be a good man, not a bitter middle aged killer with innocent blood on his hands. Problem is, Ellie isn't Sarah. She's her own person and not a replacement goldfish.

I do want to give some props to Bella Ramsey's choices during the aftermath of the skirmish with Bryan's group, because I remember seeing comments that she was relatively unfazed by killing the infected guy last episode. Here, she was incredibly torn up about even just wounding Bryan, which makes sense after hearing that he was just some desperate guy trying to help his community. It's one thing to kill someone who, from the looks of things, was more fungus than person by the time she found him. That guy probably would have thanked her if he could. It's another to hurt a person with a name who screams and cries for his mother.

I'm guessing the duo at the end were Henry and Sam. I imagine our duo will end up helping them, which will bring them into more direct conflict with Kathleen and crew. Really felt her turmoil especially with the doctor, and I don't think I consider any of the likely resolutions to this situation a "happy ending." Onward and downward, I suppose.

[paigow]

3 hours ago, cambridgeguy said:

If they're driving through Kansas City to get to Wyoming from Boston then they're taking the scenic route. 

He got confused because the map did not show Burrowhead Stadium as a landmark

[iMonrey]

Well, I liked the first half of this. It's the smaller stories I'm looking for. Once they throw in a whole gang of Mad Max cosplayers, I lose interest. It's just too much of a post-apocalyptic dystopian trope to constantly have to fend off some marauding gang. Seen it, seen it, seen it. Kind of reminds me of Negan and the Saviors, which is when I lost interest in The Walking Dead. That's just a different kind of show, a different kind of story, and one that I'm not really interested in.

Quote

If they're driving through Kansas City to get to Wyoming from Boston then they're taking the scenic route.  Maybe they encountered similar problems earlier, which would explain why Joel was impatient enough to try driving through the city.

Yeah I don't know why they would be that far south, it seems like they should have kept through Iowa and Nebraska. Maybe Joel knows the roads further north are impassible, but I don't know how he'd know that.

Edited February 6, 2023 by iMonrey

[Capricasix]

25 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

Well, I liked the first half of this. It's the smaller stories I'm looking for. Once they throw in a whole gang of Mad Max cosplayers, I lose interest. It's just too much of a post-apocalyptic dystopian trope to constantly have to fend off some marauding gang. Seen it, seen it, seen it. Kind of reminds me of Negan and the Saviors, which is when I lost interest in The Walking Dead. That's just a different kind of show, a different kind of story, and one that I'm not really interested in.

Yeah I don't know why they would be that far south, it seems like they should have kept through Iowa and Nebraska. Maybe Joel knows the roads further north are impassible, but I don't know how he'd know that.

Well, we’ve seen that the Boston QZ was able to communicate with other locations across the country via shortwave radio, so it’s plausible that others who had made their way cross-country (in either direction) could have reported back to Boston about road conditions, locations of raider groups, etc.

Great episode once again, if not quite so heartwrenching. I like that Joel and Ellie are becoming a bit more at ease with each other. Being of a certain age (not as old as Joel, but a bit older than Pedro Pascal), I also appreciated Joel’s grunt when he got up from a crouching position, and his breathlessness after climbing 33 floors :D

I felt bad for them losing the truck and all their supplies. Joel didn’t even get his backpack :(

Edited February 6, 2023 by Capricasix

[Absurda]

Joel wasn't really planning to cut through KC on city streets.  He was planning to hop off the freeway, then hop right back on the next on ramp to bypass the wreckage.  I've done something similar when I've missed an exit; they are usually right there and easy to find.  He and Ellie got lost, though, and ended up going deeper into the city than they'd planned.

Joel has a natural instinct to take care of people.  He went to Boston with the group to keep his brother out of trouble.  He's going to Wyoming to, again, take care of his brother.  He also took care of Tess.  He was always planning to go to Wyoming, he's bringing Ellie along because Tess originally talked him into taking her out of Boston and now he's stuck with her.  Despite what he's said, I don't see him ever just abandoning her out in the wild on her own so what else is he supposed to do with her?

I loved Ellie with the adult mag and Joel's uncomfortable hemming and hawing about why the pages were "sticky".  It seems a bit worldly for a 14 year old by today's standards but she was raised in, what sounds like, an orphanage surrounded by other kids of various ages, so she's not been sheltered at all.

[Starchild]

I loved Joel and Ellie's interactions in this episode, they really rang true. Their conversations consistently sound like real conversations would. Good writing and performances.

[go4luca]

34 minutes ago, Starchild said:

I loved Joel and Ellie's interactions in this episode, they really rang true. Their conversations consistently sound like real conversations would. Good writing and performances.

Same.  It really seems to be evolving organically.  I'm not getting anything weird or inappropriate & both actors work quite well together.

We've had two fairly calm episodes "infected" wise.  Which makes me antsy knowing we must have some über creepy episodes coming up.

[Msample]

I read on another forum that maybe they were so far south because the Chicago area, being very heavily built up, would be a riskier place to transit from both a FEDRA standpoint as well as higher concentrations of infected . And to a comment upthread here, past communications could have confirmed this. '

 

Can't wait to see what pops up out of the moving floor they showed. Nothing good, that's for sure. 

[Anela]

I guess those people just "liberated" the city? Because they were looking for people they thought were collaborators. 

I'm wondering if whatever was in that sinkhole thing, was a monster they told Ellie, didn't exist. maybe they just haven't seen one. 

I'm not seeing anything inappropriate between Ellie and Joel. 

[shelley1234]

I loved Ellie and Joel laughing about the puns.  In a world full of suck and fungus zombies, you enjoy the small moments of happy that come your way.  

P. S. I didn't personally see or sense anything inappropriate about their interactions.  

Edited February 6, 2023 by shelley1234
Added a P. S.

[Dev F]

56 minutes ago, Anela said:

I'm not seeing anything inappropriate between Ellie and Joel. 

Me neither, except for maybe the inherent tension in our culture's expectations for masculinity vs. paternal tenderness, as expressed in this song from the show Crazy Ex Girlfriend:

 

Edited February 6, 2023 by Dev F

[LoveLeigh]

6 hours ago, DigitalCount said:

I am also a bit hesitant, because strictly speaking, I didn't see it that way, but as I was watching...I definitely thought that it could be seen that way. It didn't give me the wiggins, but I can understand if it did for other people. I don't think you're making something out of nothing.

But I also think that there's something that we're supposed to find a bit uncomfortable (though more in a father-daughter sense). I don't believe for a second that he's taking this trip purely because Tess asked him to, even though that's part of it. Like you said, Joel is not Ellie's father, but I think he's really having this sense of transference that is not exactly healthy. It's useful, because it makes him more devoted to the cause of getting her where she needs to go, but it's not coming from a great place. He wants a second chance to be a good man, not a bitter middle aged killer with innocent blood on his hands. Problem is, Ellie isn't Sarah. She's her own person and not a replacement goldfish.

I think their relationship worked in the video game because they were a "team." But in the transfer to film, their relationship came way too close to the edge of conclusions because they are people. She is 14 and traveling all over with a grown man who is not her father: they eat together, sleep next to each other, work together, share laughs together, and if she was over 21 this relationship would move to another level, especially at the end when she tells him the diarrhea joke. 

I think many viewers see this and just don't talk about it. It is a weird dynamic that maybe could work if it was a short movie but as each episode develop the "wiggins" factor grows.

 

Edited February 6, 2023 by LoveLeigh

[magdalene]

13 hours ago, LoveLeigh said:

There is chemistry and then there is acting that infuses scenes with unintentional elements which open the window for wrong conclusions.

I actually came here to say that some of the scenes between Joel and Ellie make me uncomfortable. I felt like this last week when they were in the car, when he told her to put on her seatbelt, but kept quiet about it but after this week.... I don't know it could be me and the personal history I bring to the show. 

The "chemistry" at times between them gets too close for comfort. The way she giggles and laughs, it could be how the actor playing Ellie makes those scenes almost flirtatious... I don't know. And I hesitate to say that is what I sometimes see.... 

I think the director could have done a better job with having the actors stay in character and not blur the lines that establish boundaries. Joel is NOT Ellie's father. 

Are you implying that she is perving on Joel and vice versa?  I couldn't disagree more.

It's obviously transference on Joel's part - he may start calling her "baby girl" any moment now.  As for her, she strikes me as something of a closet sociopath in training, inspired by his violence. It's not strictly healthy but I wouldn't call it "wrong" or perverted. Considering who she could have fallen in with she got lucky with Joel.

[LoveLeigh]

1 hour ago, shelley1234 said:

IP. S. I didn't personally see or sense anything inappropriate about their interactions.  

There is nothing inappropriate about their interactions. Nothing. That's just the point. Their interactions and behavior with each other subliminally infuse wrong conclusions about where it could go if she was older. 

Just now, magdalene said:

Are you implying that she is perving on Joel and vice versa?  I couldn't disagree more.

Nope. Not at all. It is in the writing and the closeness of the interactions that simply said: if she was older those same scenes would move to another level. 

[paigow]

4 hours ago, LoveLeigh said:

I think their relationship worked in the video game because they were a "team." But in the transfer to film, their relationship came way too close to the edge of conclusions because they are people. She is 14 and traveling all over with a grown man who is not her father: they eat together, sleep next to each other, work together, share laughs together, and if she was over 21 this relationship would move to another level, especially at the end when she tells him the diarrhea joke. 

I think many viewers see this and just don't talk about it. It is a weird dynamic that maybe could work if it was a short movie but as each episode develop the "wiggins" factor grows.

 

The issue is that Joel can be perceived as an accessory to kidnapping after the fact. Ellie has been a prisoner to varying degrees all her life. First FEDRA, then the Fireflies... who passed her on to Joel & Tess. Since Ellie cannot disclose their true mission [to other people], it is easy to see Joel as human trafficker / pervert / predator.

Edited February 7, 2023 by paigow

[Starchild]

9 minutes ago, paigow said:

Since Ellie cannot disclose their true mission

I thought she did tell them about the base out west looking for a cure. Unless that's a lie. Since I haven't played the game I don't know.

Edited February 6, 2023 by Starchild

[Dev F]

27 minutes ago, LoveLeigh said:

I think their relationship worked in the video game because they were a "team." But in the transfer to film, their relationship came way too close to the edge of conclusions because they are people. She is 14 and traveling all over with a grown man who is not her father: they eat together, sleep next to each other, work together, share laughs together, and if she was over 21 this relationship would move to another level, especially at the end when she tells him the diarrhea joke.

How's that? I'd argue that laughing together over a juvenile joke about diarrhea is in the category of interactions that's least likely to serve as a prelude to romance.

[shelley1234]

41 minutes ago, LoveLeigh said:

There is nothing inappropriate about their interactions. Nothing. That's just the point. Their interactions and behavior with each other subliminally infuse wrong conclusions about where it could go if she was older. 

Nope. Not at all. It is in the writing and the closeness of the interactions that simply said: if she was older those same scenes would move to another level. 

I'm just gonna agree to disagree.   If they were older than it would be a different story and maybe a different outcome.  But this also sounds a lot like the old trope that women and men can't be friends.  

I just don't see anything subliminal.   Joel may have some misplaced paternal feelings towards her that he is trying to fight because of what happened to Sarah and that he couldn't protect her and he wouldn't be able to survive not being able to protect another child again.  That's the undercurrent IMO.  

[wanderingstar]

I think Joel took that message from Bill about men like them being there to protect to heart* Even if he hasn't admitted it to himself, he wants to protect Ellie because he feels he failed to do that with Sarah and Tess. It's why he keeps trying to distance himself from having any kind of warm feelings toward Ellie. He seems terrified of failing to protect her. 

I loved the scene where he says it's unfair Ellie has to deal with killing people. He seems genuinely heartbroken that she can't just be a child. And I agree with those who've said that he's projecting his feelings about Sarah onto Ellie.

 

*This isn't something I agree with. I think life is too complicated to split people into protectors vs. those that need to be protected.

Edited February 7, 2023 by Gillian Rosh

[paigow]

1 hour ago, Starchild said:

I thought she did tell them about the base out west looking for a cure. Unless that's a lie. Since I haven't played the game I don't know.

Yes. Ellie was not supposed to tell Joel about her immunity. However, she is not going to tell anybody else... Maybe...

[LoveLeigh]

1 hour ago, Dev F said:

How's that? I'd argue that laughing together over a juvenile joke about diarrhea is in the category of interactions that's least likely to serve as a prelude to romance.

It was not the joke that would lead to a prelude to romance. It was the subliminal undertones of their ongoing connection as they travel that to me seemed (if Ellie was over 21) would have been a gateway to moving the relationship to another level. It would be viewed as "sexual tension." I see it, sense it, and that is all I am saying. 

[LoveLeigh]

1 hour ago, shelley1234 said:

I'm just gonna agree to disagree.   If they were older than it would be a different story and maybe a different outcome.  But this also sounds a lot like the old trope that women and men can't be friends.  

I just don't see anything subliminal.   Joel may have some misplaced paternal feelings towards her that he is trying to fight because of what happened to Sarah and that he couldn't protect her and he wouldn't be able to survive not being able to protect another child again.  That's the undercurrent IMO.  

Women and men of course can be friends.  But all I am saying is when I watch this particular show as it develops I see at times what could be perceived as "sexual tension" between them. Not all the time, but enough for me to have sensed it. Maybe it is the writing, or the way it is acted, or something else. But I see it and feel it in the most innocuous scenes. 

[go4luca]

Man I must be watching a different show.  All I'm getting is more of a Dad type watching out for a daughter type. Not saying he thinks she is his daughter, just that the way he watches out for her, teaches her (ie: proper gun handling, car safety belt), is more in line with how a parent would teach/watch over a younger person.

[paigow]

53 minutes ago, go4luca said:

is more in line with how a parent would teach/watch over a younger person.

Edited February 7, 2023 by paigow

[Kate47]

Kathleen and her people are giving BSG collaborators post New Caprica vibes. I appreciate that Joel is like I should have stopped it but if I can't, here's how we do it better. Also don't shoot your ass.

ETA I watched the whole thing. It's such a delicate and interesting dynamic, wanting to protect and shield Ellie but also needing to open her eyes to the way things are. Their bond is growing and I think they're doing it in an organic way.

Edited February 7, 2023 by Kate47

[Capricasix]

10 minutes ago, Kate47 said:

Kathleen and her people are giving BSG collaborators post New Caprica vibes. I appreciate that Joel is like I should have stopped it but if I can't, here's how we do it better. Also don't shoot your ass.

I like your avi 👍🏼 (also big BSG fan, see my username 😄)

[paigow]

1 hour ago, Kate47 said:

Kathleen and her people are giving BSG collaborators post New Caprica vibes.

Cylons are immune to fungus... FEDRA should have outsourced this job...

[CooperTV]

4 hours ago, LoveLeigh said:

It was not the joke that would lead to a prelude to romance. It was the subliminal undertones of their ongoing connection as they travel that to me seemed (if Ellie was over 21) would have been a gateway to moving the relationship to another level. It would be viewed as "sexual tension." I see it, sense it, and that is all I am saying. 

I mean, Pedro Pascal is fan favorite and also really hot but I'd still argue those "unfortunate implications" you're talking about pretty much non-existent. The writers have no clue it's coming off a certain way to some viewers as well.

Ellie is seeking a protector (so far), she's an orphan girl trying find a connection. Joel is, in fact, a protector, and despite his closed-off facade is a caring guy against his better judgment. It's a classic wolf/cub dynamic about father figure and lonely child, not Spring/Winter type romance.