Gymnastics

[Wiendish Fitch]

7 minutes ago, Conotocarious said:

To add on to this, Moceanu, who fell on vault twice in a row, was then ignored by her coaches and left to feel alone and miserable (except for her teammates whose tried to cheer her up) about winning AN OLYMPIC GOLD MEDAL.  She didn’t feel that she deserved to win the medal in the same way as her teammates did even though she posted some of the highest scores on the other three events. It was like that was all erased and only her failure on vault mattered. Her own parents (her dad was an abusive jackass) upon seeing her for the first time were like “What happened on vault?”

SHE WAS FOURTEEN.

Awful. The worst part is the footage of that hateful old bat Marta Karolyi grabbing Moceanu by the neck, her fingernails digging in slightly (it was not the first time she did that). I seriously loathe the Karolyis, and I hope karma makes mincemeat out of them.

Thankfully, Moceanu has grown into a lovely, compassionate woman who is making strides to create much-needed positive changes in the world of gymnastics. I'm so glad she didn't let her past experiences embitter her. 

[qtpye]

33 minutes ago, Wiendish Fitch said:

Awful. The worst part is the footage of that hateful old bat Marta Karolyi grabbing Moceanu by the neck, her fingernails digging in slightly (it was not the first time she did that). I seriously loathe the Karolyis, and I hope karma makes mincemeat out of them.

Thankfully, Moceanu has grown into a lovely, compassionate woman who is making strides to create much-needed positive changes in the world of gymnastics. I'm so glad she didn't let her past experiences embitter her. 

She really has grown up to be great and her father was also terrible.

I remember when Marta would do that and I thought she was just rubbing her neck to comfort her....boy was I wrong.

I used to want my children to go into gymnastics...now I would not let them near this type of toxicity.

[Crs97]

2 minutes ago, qtpye said:

I remember when Marta would do that and I thought she was just rubbing her neck to comfort her....boy was I wrong.

I remember that and thought the same thing.  I actually tended to give them the benefit of the doubt from way back when Mary Lou won Olympic gold and Don Peters seemed to spend the meet pretending he was the one coaching her to glory.  Who knew both coaches were really scum?

[choclatechip45]

Moceanu also had abusive parents who didn't protect her. She annoys me sometimes, but I have a lot of respect for her. 

[Ceindreadh]

1 hour ago, Wiendish Fitch said:

Wanna know the worst part? Strug's second vault attempt wasn't even necessary.

According to Dominique Moceanu (and it's impossible for me not to believe her), in spite of the fact that she messed up her two vault attempts and Strug messed up her first one... the gold medal for the U.S. team was in the bag. Strug could have absolutely refused to do it, and the gold would have been theirs anyway.

Ah, but that wouldn't have been as good a story. I'm fairly certain that the Karolyis fed the media that bullshit about how everything was resting on Strug's shoulders, and the media devoured it.

 

I think though that at the time that Strug was making her second attempt, they didn't know that it wasn't necessary.

IIRC, there was still one Russian competitor to go on the floor.  Roza Galiyeva did her routine after Strug's second vault and the noise from the crowd was so deafening that she couldn't hear her music - which may or may not have contributed to a lower score that meant the USA team would have won without the second vault. 

[irisheyes]

Oh look. ANOTHER institution has failed Nassar’s victims. He’s not paying his court ordered restitution, but he used his federal stimulus to buy nice stuff at the commissary. 
https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/larry-nassar-prison-bank-account/2021/07/28/abdf6560-ee14-11eb-bf80-e3877d9c5f06_story.html?utm_campaign=wp_main&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook&fbclid=IwAR1lZpStVTLcc2o-7i2jojHkYNs6WFw-P7p_QyjgrjdmJoUiDnWkoAh2K7o

[Wiendish Fitch]

6 minutes ago, irisheyes said:

Oh look. ANOTHER institution has failed Nassar’s victims. He’s not paying his court ordered restitution, but he used his federal stimulus to buy nice stuff at the commissary. 
https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/larry-nassar-prison-bank-account/2021/07/28/abdf6560-ee14-11eb-bf80-e3877d9c5f06_story.html?utm_campaign=wp_main&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook&fbclid=IwAR1lZpStVTLcc2o-7i2jojHkYNs6WFw-P7p_QyjgrjdmJoUiDnWkoAh2K7o

 

[DawnDavenport]

5 hours ago, Wiendish Fitch said:

Awful. The worst part is the footage of that hateful old bat Marta Karolyi grabbing Moceanu by the neck, her fingernails digging in slightly (it was not the first time she did that). I seriously loathe the Karolyis, and I hope karma makes mincemeat out of them.

Thankfully, Moceanu has grown into a lovely, compassionate woman who is making strides to create much-needed positive changes in the world of gymnastics. I'm so glad she didn't let her past experiences embitter her. 

Don't forget the way Bela treated Kim in '92 after she when out of bounds on floor in the all around, basically taking her out of medal contention. He basically ignored her and tried to get away from her as soon as he could find Betty Okino (his other athlete). Couldn't even bother to comfort the athlete that he so over trained after trials that she showed up in Barcelona with a fractured wrist and ankle.

Their track record in Romania is not so hot either. Several of the Romanian gymnasts who trained under them have been critical and talked about the abuse they suffered.

They are both utter trash. That's why I absolutely do not feel any grain of sympathy for Bela's descent into dementia. It's actually the least painful way for him to suffer given what he has done to so many athletes. 

As much as Steve Nunno got on my nerves, he always seemed to be supportive of Shannon when she made a mistake and made an attempt to refocus her if she still had events left.

 

Edited July 29, 2021 by DawnDavenport

[Spartan Girl]

11 hours ago, Wiendish Fitch said:

By TOO MANY PEOPLE. Their parents, their coaches, USAG, society in general.

 

Re: Simone Biles

Kerri Strug has lent her support of Biles on social media. I think that's lovely; Strug could have easily gotten on her soapbox and blustered about how she carried on with a broken ankle, but she chose empathy and understanding instead. Good for her.

For those who are grumbling about how the more compassionate approach won't create as many champions, I say: it's not our victory, it's their's. I hate the idea of someone destroying their physical and mental well-being just so I can vicariously live through them for a day or two, then forget about them just as quickly.

For God's sake, I'm old enough to remember the 1996 Olympics, and I remember that while we rightly cheered on Strug for vaulting on a broken ankle (though, in hindsight, it is utterly fucked up that she felt she had to), just as quickly people were mocking her squeaky voice, frumpy haircut, and the fact that Bela Karolyi had to carry her around (um, she was injured, assholes).

I also want to add that competing with that broken ankle damaged it worse and pretty much ended her gymnastics career. I knew she of all people would be more sympathetic and understanding to Simone than the saying she should have sucked it up.

[Conotocarious]

To me it seems like people in this country simply cannot comprehend the severity of the situation until utter disaster strikes. If she had pushed through and ended up with a catastrophic injury, the “how did [someone else] let this happen” narrative in the media would be rampant.

It's a little bit like the pandemic response. If we had the proper response, many fewer would be dead and people would complaining that we took too many restrictions for nothing. Nobody seems able to recognize an issue unless its already caused devastating harm.

[Conotocarious]

1 hour ago, DawnDavenport said:

Don't forget the way Bela treated Kim in '92 after she when out of bounds on floor in the all around, basically taking her out of medal contention. He basically ignored her and tried to get away from her as soon as he could find Betty Okino (his other athlete). Couldn't even bother to comfort the athlete that he so over trained after trials that she showed up in Barcelona with a fractured wrist and ankle.

Their track record in Romania is not so hot either. Several of the Romanian gymnasts who trained under them have been critical and talked about the abuse they suffered.

They are both utter trash. That's why I absolutely do not feel any grain of sympathy for Bela's descent into dementia. It's actually the least painful way for him to suffer given what he has done to so many athletes. 

As much as Steve Nunno got on my nerves, he always seemed to be supportive of Shannon when she made a mistake and made an attempt to refocus her if she still had events left.

 

Utter trash is the perfect descriptor. I’ll never forget my shock when Kim fell in compulsories on a back handspring on beam. She thought she was out of the AA then and somehow fought her way back in only to take that OOB on her first pass like you’d describe. And boom, she’s dead to them.

It sickens me to think of the parents clamoring to get their kids into his gym. I also cannot take the NBC soft light, piano-music laden backstories they used to shamelessly churn out, lavishing praise on those two psychos and acting like he was some kind of father figure to the girls. It makes my skin crawl. John Tesh in particular: “Little girls…..dancing for gold”. GROSS. And they’d always mic Bela and cut to his ramblings. It struck me even as a kid that his “coaching” seemed to consist of “Stronger….good! Stronger!” Wow, that’s super helpful, douche. I wasn’t surprised at all to read in Dominique’s book that he never really coached her like a real coach at all….it was always other coaches they’d hire at his gym.

Edited July 29, 2021 by Conotocarious

[Wiendish Fitch]

1 hour ago, DawnDavenport said:

Don't forget the way Bela treated Kim in '92 after she when out of bounds on floor in the all around, basically taking her out of medal contention. He basically ignored her and tried to get away from her as soon as he could find Betty Okino (his other athlete). Couldn't even bother to comfort the athlete that he so over trained after trials that she showed up in Barcelona with a fractured wrist and ankle.

Their track record in Romania is not so hot either. Several of the Romanian gymnasts who trained under them have been critical and talked about the abuse they suffered.

They are both utter trash. That's why I absolutely do not feel any grain of sympathy for Bela's descent into dementia. It's actually the least painful way for him to suffer given what he has done to so many athletes. 

 

The Karolyis are fucking monsters. Always have been, always will be. They ran their training center like a damned cult (isolating the gymnasts from the outside world, starving them,  etc). 

You mentioned Kim Zmeskal, and hasn't her gym gotten allegations for its own abusive practices? If true, that is extremely sad and telling.

[choclatechip45]

11 minutes ago, Wiendish Fitch said:

The Karolyis are fucking monsters. Always have been, always will be. They ran their training center like a damned cult (isolating the gymnasts from the outside world, starving them,  etc). 

You mentioned Kim Zmeskal, and hasn't her gym gotten allegations for its own abusive practices? If true, that is extremely sad and telling.

Yes she has and also racist allegations Kenedy Baker said she grabbed her braids and cut them off. 

[Wiendish Fitch]

15 minutes ago, choclatechip45 said:

Yes she has and also racist allegations Kenedy Baker said she grabbed her braids and cut them off. 

Well, to paraphrase Olivia de Havilland in The Heiress, Zmeskal was taught cruelty by masters.

[windsprints]

1 hour ago, Conotocarious said:

It sickens me to think of the parents clamoring to get their kids into his gym. I also cannot take the NBC soft light, piano-music laden backstories they used to shamelessly churn out, lavishing praise on those two psychos and acting like he was some kind of father figure to the girls. It makes my skin crawl. John Tesh in particular: “Little girls…..dancing for gold”. GROSS.

I vaguely remembered that segment so I had to go find it. Yep, gross.

 

[Frisky Wig]

Sorry to derail but does anyone have experience watching live Olympics on the Peacock app? Seriously considering getting up at 3:30 to watch women’s AA live and I really don’t want it to be a big hassle. Is it just go to the app and push Play or something easy? 
 

Also, screw the Karolyis! 

[Conotocarious]

3 minutes ago, Frisky Wig said:

Sorry to derail but does anyone have experience watching live Olympics on the Peacock app? Seriously considering getting up at 3:30 to watch women’s AA live and I really don’t want it to be a big hassle. Is it just go to the app and push Play or something easy? 
 

Also, screw the Karolyis! 

For me, I had to go into the app and click the link that said Sports and then it would show up as a link.

[windsprints]

4 minutes ago, Frisky Wig said:

Sorry to derail but does anyone have experience watching live Olympics on the Peacock app? Seriously considering getting up at 3:30 to watch women’s AA live and I really don’t want it to be a big hassle. Is it just go to the app and push Play or something easy? 
 

Also, screw the Karolyis! 

I watched live via the Sports App (I have cable so I can logon). It was easy, they show all the live events and you just click it.

[ombelico]

6 minutes ago, Frisky Wig said:

Sorry to derail but does anyone have experience watching live Olympics on the Peacock app? Seriously considering getting up at 3:30 to watch women’s AA live and I really don’t want it to be a big hassle. Is it just go to the app and push Play or something easy? 
 

Also, screw the Karolyis! 

It will be part of a show on Peacock called "Tokyo Live" in the Olympics tab.

[DawnDavenport]

1 hour ago, windsprints said:

I vaguely remembered that segment so I had to go find it. Yep, gross.

 

Spencer over at balancebeamsitutation.com did a recap a few years ago:

https://balancebeamsituation.com/2016/05/22/1996-team-final-and-she-did-it-on-two-legs/

I don't think the linked video is available any longer but the write-up is hilarious. You should definitely read his description of Kerry's atrocious floor routine choreography.

The John Tesh mess is the opening of the team final broadcast.

Edited July 29, 2021 by DawnDavenport

[windsprints]

40 minutes ago, DawnDavenport said:

I don't think the linked video is available any longer but he write-up is hilarious. You should definitely read his description of Kerry's atrocious floor routine choreography.

That was fantastic hahaha

[Conotocarious]

53 minutes ago, DawnDavenport said:

Spencer over at balancebeamsitutation.com did a recap a few years ago:

https://balancebeamsituation.com/2016/05/22/1996-team-final-and-she-did-it-on-two-legs/

I don't think the linked video is available any longer but the write-up is hilarious. You should definitely read his description of Kerry's atrocious floor routine choreography.

The John Tesh mess is the opening of the team final broadcast.

I am laughing out loud over here. Domi floating by in the inner tube as the word HELP flashes is just…..I mean it perfectly sums up that ridiculous segment. Like she was ever allowed to relax like that around the Karolyis. Or her family.

[HartofDixie]

AA Start List: https://olympics.com/tokyo-2020/olympic-games/resOG2020-/pdf/OG2020-/GAR/OG2020-_GAR_C51F_GARW1AA---------------FNL---------.pdf

AA live results: https://olympics.com/tokyo-2020/olympic-games/en/results/artistic-gymnastics/results-women-s-all-around-fnl-000001-.htm

Main feed: https://stream.nbcolympics.com/gymnastics-womens-individual-all-around-main-coverage

Apparatus feed: https://stream.nbcolympics.com/gymnastics-womens-individual-all-around-final-apparatus-feed

Edited July 29, 2021 by HartofDixie

[Vermicious Knid]

Quote

Moceanu also had abusive parents who didn't protect her.

Did you know about her secret sister, who was given up at birth because she was born without legs? She was adopted and went on to do gymnastics anyway.

[qtpye]

2 hours ago, Vermicious Knid said:

Did you know about her secret sister, who was given up at birth because she was born without legs? She was adopted and went on to do gymnastics anyway.

I have heard about this and seriously, you can not make this shit up!

Truth is really more bizarre than fiction.

Her father was a monster.

[Wiendish Fitch]

5 hours ago, Vermicious Knid said:

Did you know about her secret sister, who was given up at birth because she was born without legs? She was adopted and went on to do gymnastics anyway.

Ah, yes, I did know about Jennifer Bricker.  My God, Dominique's parents are pieces of work, aren't they? Happily, Jennifer and Dominique were able to meet in their 20s and have actually formed a close relationship. Good on them.

10 hours ago, DawnDavenport said:

As much as Steve Nunno got on my nerves, he always seemed to be supportive of Shannon when she made a mistake and made an attempt to refocus her if she still had events left.

I've read Shannon Miller's memoir, and she had nothing but positive things to say about Steve Nunno. Heck, Dominique Moceanu recalled how surprising it was to her that Nunno allowed Miller to cry during practice (crying is verboten to most gymnastics coaches).

This reminds me: why do so many people have such a binary, either/or mindset when it comes to how coaches should coach? People think either a coach has to mollycoddle their athlete, or abuse them as much as the law allows. In short, you're either Mr. O'Neal from Daria or Fletcher from Whiplash. Is it so ridiculous to suggest that there should be something in between? I've never been an athlete, but the most effective teachers I've ever had were, if not necessarily kind, then at least civil, and above all honest. They told me I was doing well when I was doing well, and if I did something wrong they pointed it out and simply told me how to do it correctly next time. Why is this such an outrageous concept? Just be human and honest with your athlete. 

[Jeddah]

On 7/19/2021 at 12:54 PM, Jeddah said:

I think it depends, but I lean towards feeling like who did or don’t compete shouldn’t taint anyone else’s win. They showed up on the day, competed under Olympic sized pressure, and won. That’s what matters, not who else was there. 

I feel like people did specify that Carly Patterson was the first American AA champion from a non-boycotted Olympics, but personally I don’t feel like Mary Lou Retton should have an asterisk by her name.

That being said if God forbid Simone couldn’t compete, I think there would always be a cloud over those medals. She’s just too dominant for us to believe that she wouldn’t have won anything. I can see both sides.

Quoting myself here to say I take back what I said in the last paragraph, and I don’t think there is any type of cloud over these medals. Suni was amazing, and if there’s one thing we learned from the team final it’s that anything can happen. If Simone had competed in AA would she have won? We can’t ever know for sure. All we know is that Suni did compete, and she earned that gold. I am so happy for her!

[dmeets]

Great for Suni! Nice to remind people that the U.S. actually has other uber-talented gymnasts. And as an added bonus, maybe it'll finally stop the deranged racist/misogynist talk show hosts from bitching about how that "selfish sociopath" "quitter" robbed the U.S. of gold medals while the Russians ROC laughed in our faces.

Sheesh I could rant for days about the vile shit that's been spewed about Biles this week.

[Quilt Fairy]

I did not realize Suni was Hmong-American.  The Hmong people have never had a country of their own.  Her community in Minnesota must be so proud!

[qtpye]

2 minutes ago, Quilt Fairy said:

I did not realize Suni was Hmong-American.  The Hmong people have never had a country of their own.  Her community in Minnesota must be so proud!

Suni really is amazing. Her father seems very positive and supportive.

I saw her on one of the Defying Gravity videos and was impressed with her.

[BlackberryJam]

Slightly switching gears here, but note that a younger family member of mine was a competitive (but not elite) female gymnast for 15 years, so what I'm thinking comes partly from that.

When Phelps was competing we saw so many pieces about how he was ingesting 5000 calories per day because he burnt it all up in the pool and he could eat so much and not put on a pound.

With at least female gymnasts (and figure skaters of both sexes) these athletes are out there burning 4000+ calories per day and taking in only 900. And somehow that's acceptable.

My experience with the female gymnastics team, when I FOOLISHLY took them out for pizza, is that this cadre of tiny little girls ate like NFL linemen. I think they each ate a whole pizza, and they were 12 years old at the time. Not to mention the breadsticks they inhaled, and how many brownie sundaes were ordered? I don't even know. But those girls didn't put on an ounce and still competed.

During the Phelps pieces I just kept thinking, "And the Karolyis make their gymnasts subsist on one lettuce leaf and a carrot per day."

I get that gymnasts and figure skaters want to be small and lean, but the biology of minimal to no food intake just doesn't make sense to me.

And why is Phelps' coach okay with that diet and in other sports eating is practically sinful? 

[Frisky Wig]

1 hour ago, BlackberryJam said:

Slightly switching gears here, but note that a younger family member of mine was a competitive (but not elite) female gymnast for 15 years, so what I'm thinking comes partly from that.

When Phelps was competing we saw so many pieces about how he was ingesting 5000 calories per day because he burnt it all up in the pool and he could eat so much and not put on a pound.

With at least female gymnasts (and figure skaters of both sexes) these athletes are out there burning 4000+ calories per day and taking in only 900. And somehow that's acceptable.

My experience with the female gymnastics team, when I FOOLISHLY took them out for pizza, is that this cadre of tiny little girls ate like NFL linemen. I think they each ate a whole pizza, and they were 12 years old at the time. Not to mention the breadsticks they inhaled, and how many brownie sundaes were ordered? I don't even know. But those girls didn't put on an ounce and still competed.

During the Phelps pieces I just kept thinking, "And the Karolyis make their gymnasts subsist on one lettuce leaf and a carrot per day."

I get that gymnasts and figure skaters want to be small and lean, but the biology of minimal to no food intake just doesn't make sense to me.

And why is Phelps' coach okay with that diet and in other sports eating is practically sinful? 

For one thing, gymnastics is anaerobic exercise, whereas swimming is aerobic. Aerobic exercises burn many more calories than anaerobic. That being said, multiple-hour gymnastics workouts does indeed burn a ton of calories, just not as much as multiple-hour swimming workouts.

Regarding Phelps' coach being ok with Michael's diet and other sports being abusively strict, I think it's down to sex, size and sport aesthetic. Michael is male, and what, 6 feet tall? Of course he's going to need more calories than a female gymnast a foot shorter than him, especially since he's in an aerobic sport. I can see how his coach is like "he's a big guy, swims a lot, needs a lot of food, let him eat 4 waffles at breakfast!" Aesthetics of the sport is another factor. Gymnasts' coaches feel their athletes need to be thin in order to win, and because coaches have 0 nutritional training, they believe that the only way to lose weight is to eat as little as possible, and if their athletes are suffering effects of underfueling, such as having poor practices, they blame her for being weak and tell her she needs to suck it up. 

I've followed rhythmic for nearly 20 years and I've heard awful, terrible stories. The pressure to be thin is even greater in rhythmic than in artistic, leading to coaches looking the other way when their athletes purge lunch in the restrooms, punishing them for gaining weight, hitting a child for eating candy, calling their athletes fat etc. Rhythmic gymnasts have been told "if you don't lose 5 lbs in 3 days, you won't be able to perform all 4 routines at Worlds," and when the gymnast wasn't able to, sure enough, she was pulled from 2 apparatuses. And, sadly, restricting your food intake is seen as normal in the rhythmic world. Not getting your period for years is also seen as normal. One American athlete talked about how she trained in Russia for a few weeks and the gym had a rule where gymnasts had to weigh themselves every morning. If they gained weight, they couldn't eat dinner that night. It was said in a "that's just the way it goes, that's how they do things in Russia" kind of way. It's so unbelievably awful and dangerous and unhealthy.

It's all about winning medals. Who cares if the athletes are unhealthy? Maybe when they're passing out in practice because they haven't eaten, it'll finally be considered a problem. Oh, one thing I remembered is a former rhythmic gymnast telling me "coaches consider it the parents job to monitor nutrition and teach healthy food practices."

You could also argue that strictly controlling what athletes eat is just another way to have complete control over them.  And you see a lot of "that's how I was trained" or "that's what the best athletes do" mentality.

[choclatechip45]

2 hours ago, BlackberryJam said:

Slightly switching gears here, but note that a younger family member of mine was a competitive (but not elite) female gymnast for 15 years, so what I'm thinking comes partly from that.

When Phelps was competing we saw so many pieces about how he was ingesting 5000 calories per day because he burnt it all up in the pool and he could eat so much and not put on a pound.

With at least female gymnasts (and figure skaters of both sexes) these athletes are out there burning 4000+ calories per day and taking in only 900. And somehow that's acceptable.

My experience with the female gymnastics team, when I FOOLISHLY took them out for pizza, is that this cadre of tiny little girls ate like NFL linemen. I think they each ate a whole pizza, and they were 12 years old at the time. Not to mention the breadsticks they inhaled, and how many brownie sundaes were ordered? I don't even know. But those girls didn't put on an ounce and still competed.

During the Phelps pieces I just kept thinking, "And the Karolyis make their gymnasts subsist on one lettuce leaf and a carrot per day."

I get that gymnasts and figure skaters want to be small and lean, but the biology of minimal to no food intake just doesn't make sense to me.

And why is Phelps' coach okay with that diet and in other sports eating is practically sinful? 

Aly Raisman talks about this a lot. She knew nothing about nutrition until during her comeback her chiropractor recommended the Patriots nutritionist person to her. She talked about how her nutritionist could not believe he was working with a world class athlete and none of her coaches or national staff taught her anything about how to eat right. 

Phelps has said his diet has been exaggerated in the media who knows if that is true or not.

[Harry24]

3 hours ago, BlackberryJam said:

"And the Karolyis make their gymnasts subsist on one lettuce leaf and a carrot per day."

It's been nice that none of the American women has that slightly scary, fragile, super skinny look.  They all look like strong, athletic, healthy young women.

[Vermicious Knid]

Really surprised no one has brought up Little Girls in Pretty Boxes yet. Published in 1996 but still relevant.

Quote

In a 2018 interview, Ryan stated the thesis of the book was that abuse had become part of the normal culture of these sports. Ryan argues that the image of these athletes' beauty, glamour, class, and sophistication conceals a troubled reality of physical problems (weakened bones, stunted growth, debilitating and fatal injuries), psychological issues (eating disorders, depression, and low self-esteem), and life sacrifices (dropping out of school, losing the chance to "be a child", and becoming isolated from their peers and families). While decrying these practices, Ryan advocates for systemic change in figure skating and gymnastics, calling for raised minimum-age requirements, mandatory licenses for coaches, careful scrutiny by national governing bodies, and a requirement for athletes to remain in regular schools at least until they are 16....Bela Karolyi was singled out for particular criticism in the book for his influence on USA Gymnastics (USAG), which resulted in what she called "a system of abuse". Ryan's general points have been supported by medical experts, as noted in a 1996 report published in the New England Journal of Medicine describing the emotional and physical harm suffered by elite female gymnasts.

While driving around today caught part of The Takeaway on NPR interviewing Dominique Dawes. They weren't allowed to quit, which at the time she thought was great for pushing forward but is now horrified by. They didn't use the term 'the twisties' then but it would be terrifying when it happened. Was around Larry Nassir for ten years. Wouldn't let her kids get into gymnastics. If you're interested you can download here.

[Quilt Fairy]

37 minutes ago, Vermicious Knid said:

Really surprised no one has brought up Little Girls in Pretty Boxes yet. Published in 1996 but still relevant.

I was just thinking about that book last night.  Great minds, and all that. 

[Wiendish Fitch]

Little Girls in Pretty Boxes is a brutal but necessary read. So many evil coaches through the years: the Karolyis, Don Peters, Al Fong, and there are definitely others.

I'm surprised Beth and Steve Rybacki don't get mentioned often in the pantheon of shitty coaching. Jamie Dantzcher (member of the 2000 Olympic team) and Vanessa Atler (1997 National Champion) both trained under them, and their stories are practically identical: brutal overtraining, impossible to please, competing with injuries, and, oh, the fat shaming. Dantzcher alleges she once had the flu, was throwing up for nearly a week straight, and lost 6 or 7 pounds. The Rybacki's reaction? "We need to figure out how to keep the weight off." Dantzcher and Atler both succumbed to bulimia, and Atler's stress caused her to mess up her routines for the 2000 Olympic trials, leading Steve Rybacki to basically chew her out on camera (it's as awful as it sounds).

Dantzcher was also one of Larry Nassar's victims (I don't know if Atler was), and she is featured in the documentary Athlete A. Both women are also in the YouTube series Defying Gravity (both docs are highly recommended).

Back to the subject at hand, I think more gymnasts should bow out if they don't feel physically and mentally up to the task. Gymnastics is dangerous, and one mistake can literally be fatal. If poor Julissa Gomez hadn't been pushed past her limits and doubts, she might still be with us today (if you look her up, trigger warning: real life body horror and death).

Edited July 30, 2021 by Wiendish Fitch

[abovethetitle]

Simone confirmed via her IG account that she has the twisties and while she's had it before, it's "only" been on vault and floor before and right now it's all four events. She has moved to a private gym in Tokyo that has a foam pit and more mats so she can try to work through it safely. She is unsure herself of the role of stress in developing or managing the twisties but she is clearly very frustrated with the timing. She re-iterated for the keyboard warriors that she was not struggling with this before she got to Tokyo - it started the day after prelims/before team finals, and when she pulled herself, it was for her own safety but also because she felt her scores would be so low that they would be a liability for the team medaling at all. In the past, it's taken her 2-3 weeks to work through the twisties but since this is the Olympics, she is being medically evaluated everyday and trying to work through it step by step. It's worth noting, although she didn't mention this in her video, that for event finals, the gymnasts do NOT get a one-touch warm-up. (But we care about athlete safety you guys!) So I have to imagine if she competes, she's REALLY ready since she won't get a look at the podium equipment until she's going for real.

[DawnDavenport]

3 hours ago, Wiendish Fitch said:

Little Girls in Pretty Boxes is a brutal but necessary read. So many evil coaches through the years: the Karolyis, Don Peters, Al Fong, and there are definitely others.

I'm surprised Beth and Steve Rybacki don't get mentioned often in the pantheon of shitty coaching. Jamie Dantzcher (member of the 2000 Olympic team) and Vanessa Atler (1997 National Champion) both trained under them, and their stories are practically identical: brutal overtraining, impossible to please, competing with injuries, and, oh, the fat shaming. Dantzcher alleges she once had the flu, was throwing up for nearly a week straight, and lost 6 or 7 pounds. The Rybacki's reaction? "We need to figure out how to keep the weight off." Dantzcher and Atler both succumbed to bulimia, and Atler's stress caused her to mess up her routines for the 2000 Olympic trials, leading Steve Rybacki to basically chew her out on camera (it's as awful as it sounds).

Dantzcher was also one of Larry Nassar's victims (I don't know if Atler was), and she is featured in the documentary Athlete A. Both women are also in the YouTube series Defying Gravity (both docs are highly recommended).

The Rybacki's are also terrible people! Steve chewing out Atler was on Night 2 of the 1999 Nationals. At 2000 trials she was being coached by Valeri Liukin. After bars warm up, the camera is on Steve basically berating and yelling at her on live TV. It was atrocious. She left the Rybackis right after.

Alter has been very vocal about Valeri's constant weigh-ins that caused her to develop an eating disorder and she showed up to trials a horrible mess. 

Further up in the thread, I posted a recap from balacebeamsituation.com that breaks down, sometimes hilariously, the horror of the 2000 Olympic Trials. On night one, they did a fluff piece on the Rybackis and the whole Atler leaving, Jamie coming back saga. Beth Rybacki is so f**ing pathetic and nauseating in it.

There a moment after Jamie is selected for the team that Al Trautwig blurts out on TV: "Beth finally gets her Olympics!" 

We also can't forget the horror that is Mary Lee Tracy. She has a carnage list a mile long. Back in the early to mid-2000s there would be pictures of her gymnasts in groups photos with half of them in arm or leg casts (I kid you not!).

Bill and Donna Strauss are also horrible. They were Kristin Maloney's coaches and the girl competed for 3 years on a stress fracture that was never allowed to properly heal. She then had a rod inserted to stabilize it sometime before Sydney. Then, while at UCLA, she got a sever bone infection after another surgery to repair it and almost lost her leg. AT some point I remember that anytime a gymnast announced they had a stress fracture, it was nicknamed StraussFracture.

[abovethetitle]

Ugh, the Rybackis. Who else remembers Mary Lee Tracy at the 2000 Trials with Alyssa Beckerman where Alyssa made a mistake and MLT is caught on camera berating her saying, "How many times, Alyssa?" And Morgan White said she was forced to hide the injury that eventually led to her withdrawing from the Olympics and that an eating disorder and overtraining led her to need compete hip replacement surgery in her 30s.

Edited July 30, 2021 by abovethetitle

[Wiendish Fitch]

4 minutes ago, DawnDavenport said:

Bill and Donna Strauss are also horrible. They were Kristin Maloney's coaches and the girl competed for 3 years on a stress fracture that was never allowed to properly heal. She then had a rod inserted to stabilize it sometime before Sydney. Then, while at UCLA, she got a sever bone infection after another surgery to repair it and almost lost her leg. AT some point I remember that anytime a gymnast announced they had a stress fracture, it was nicknamed StraussFracture.

"StraussFracture" would almost be funny if it weren't so sickeningly true. 

Here's another delightful Karolyi anecdote: according to her victim impact statement at Larry Nassar's trial, Mattie Larson recalled dreading going to the Karolyi camp so much, she deliberately banged her head against her bath tub to make it look like she slipped on the floor just so she could avoid going. Larson was only 15 or 16 at the time. She faked a concussion by nearly giving herself an actual concussion. When she made camp the next month, what did Marta Karolyi have to say?

"You know, Kim Zmeskal fell out of the top bunk when she was at camp, and she made it to practice the next day."

Larson was basically treated like a leper by Karolyi for the rest of her stay.

Wow. No fucking words.
 

[DawnDavenport]

18 minutes ago, abovethetitle said:

Ugh, the Rybackis. Who else remembers Mary Lee Tracy at the 2000 Trials with Alyssa Beckerman where Alyssa made a mistake and MLT is caught on camera berating her saying, "How many times, Alyssa?" And Morgan White said she was forced to hide the injury that eventually led to her withdrawing from the Olympics and that an eating disorder and overtraining led her to need compete hip replacement surgery in her 30s.

Here are the links I referred in my last post regarding the horror of the 2000 Olympic trials:

https://balancebeamsituation.com/2015/06/24/2000-olympic-trials-special-victims-unit/

https://balancebeamsituation.com/2015/07/04/2000-olympic-trials-part-2-shes-still-not-ok/

This competition has it all: Rybacki fluff about how they can't believe Vanessa left them, Beth finally going to "her Olympics", Mary Lee Tracy "how many times, Alyssa?", Atler almost paralyzing herself on her night 1 beam dismount, Morgan White having a nervous breakdown after night 1 vault, and comments about how pretty much everyone is injured. 

The piece de resistance is the glimpse of Larry Nassar helping Shannon Miller off the podium on night 2 after she injured herself on vault.

The write-up for night 2 startes like this:

"Remember the first day of competition and how it was a traumatic disaster where everybody had a nervous breakdown into a chalk bucket and then Beckerman just stopped in the middle of her bars routine out of emotional catastrophe? (HOW MANY TIMES ALYSSA?) Child’s play. Brace yourself."

Edited July 30, 2021 by DawnDavenport

[ML89]

13 hours ago, Quilt Fairy said:

I was just thinking about that book last night.  Great minds, and all that. 

Joan Ryan is on Twitter and said the audio version was getting downloaded:

https://twitter.com/joanryan/status/1420583384682700800?s=20

[Frisky Wig]

35 minutes ago, ML89 said:

Joan Ryan is on Twitter and said the audio version was getting downloaded:

https://twitter.com/joanryan/status/1420583384682700800?s=20

I'm happy about this. That's a great, eye-opening, upsetting book. I read it years ago and would like to read or listen to it again. 

[HartofDixie]

For more on The Strauss’s/Parkettes read Jennifer Sey book “Chalked Up”.

https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=90105904

[Quilt Fairy]

4 hours ago, ML89 said:

Joan Ryan is on Twitter and said the audio version was getting downloaded:

https://twitter.com/joanryan/status/1420583384682700800?s=20

And here it is on Audible. 

[choclatechip45]

12 hours ago, Wiendish Fitch said:

Little Girls in Pretty Boxes is a brutal but necessary read. So many evil coaches through the years: the Karolyis, Don Peters, Al Fong, and there are definitely others.

I'm surprised Beth and Steve Rybacki don't get mentioned often in the pantheon of shitty coaching. Jamie Dantzcher (member of the 2000 Olympic team) and Vanessa Atler (1997 National Champion) both trained under them, and their stories are practically identical: brutal overtraining, impossible to please, competing with injuries, and, oh, the fat shaming. Dantzcher alleges she once had the flu, was throwing up for nearly a week straight, and lost 6 or 7 pounds. The Rybacki's reaction? "We need to figure out how to keep the weight off." Dantzcher and Atler both succumbed to bulimia, and Atler's stress caused her to mess up her routines for the 2000 Olympic trials, leading Steve Rybacki to basically chew her out on camera (it's as awful as it sounds).

Dantzcher was also one of Larry Nassar's victims (I don't know if Atler was), and she is featured in the documentary Athlete A. Both women are also in the YouTube series Defying Gravity (both docs are highly recommended).

Back to the subject at hand, I think more gymnasts should bow out if they don't feel physically and mentally up to the task. Gymnastics is dangerous, and one mistake can literally be fatal. If poor Julissa Gomez hadn't been pushed past her limits and doubts, she might still be with us today (if you look her up, trigger warning: real life body horror and death).

Sam Peszek said Steve Rybacki made her change her vault in Bejing and that is what caused her injury.

[windsprints]

Was Shannon Miller's coach a nightmare too? Were there any that were not horror shows? 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, windsprints said:

Was Shannon Miller's coach a nightmare too?

Yes. 

 

1 hour ago, windsprints said:

Were there any that were not horror shows? 

Amy Chow’s coaches were apparently really good and protected her from the Karyoli’s. 

During the ‘08 games there was a lot of talk about how Shawn Johnson’s coach (Liang Chow) was very unique and gave his athletes more down time. One of his gymnasts has said that he would protect that at the ranch and that they weren’t pressured to compete injured or lose weight. 

[Mirabelle]

Chow was apparently pretty traumatized by his own experience training as a gymnast so when he became a coach he set out to show that it's possible to produce high level gymnasts without the starving and abuse. His gymnasts really respect him. Shawn Johnson is still close to him - she called to let him know when she went into labor.  

Nora Flatley (a former Chow gymnast) talks about her experience with him at the end.