S01.E10: The Black Queen

[Lady Whistleup]

I kind of wonder how next season will develop the Greens, since the writers tipped their hands so much by favoring the Blacks. In the land of the Blacks, parents and children love each other. Promises are kept. There's usually no gratuitous cruelty.

In the land of the Greens, the king is a rapist, Alicent's two head honchos are psychos, and Aemond killed Luke. Alicent does have nice feet I guess.

[Oscirus]

so what would boras have done if luke took him up on the betrothal offer? Would his support have been halfsies?

[ursula]

3 minutes ago, Lady Whistleup said:

I kind of wonder how next season will develop the Greens, since the writers tipped their hands so much by favoring the Blacks. In the land of the Blacks, parents and children love each other. Promises are kept. There's usually no gratuitous cruelty.

In the land of the Blacks: Rhaenyra is a sexual abuser; Daemon is a wife-killer who neglects his children; both of them murdered Vaemon Velaryon and stole his birthright because he said the truth; her three children are bastards and their very existence is treason against the country.

Meanwhile Alicent was a teenage girl forced into marriage, having sex under dubious-consent circumstances with her much older husband, who ignores his son losing an eye to cover up his daughter's disgraceful behavior. 

If anything, the show is so busy whitewashing everyone that I dislike all the teams equally.

Edited October 24, 2022 by ursula

[SeanC]

16 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

They've been betrothed for about a week at most. Moreover, betrothals were called off all the time in the Middle Ages.

But they have no authority to call the betrothals off. Baela and Rhaena are Daemon's daughters, they're his to betroth as he sees fit, answerable only to the head of House Targaryen (which is Rhaenyra, as they see it).

[MrsR]

4 minutes ago, Lady Whistleup said:

In the land of the Blacks, parents and children love each other.

Parent, singular. Not too sure about Daemon who seems to love only himself. 

Alicent loves her children despite being disappointed in at least one of them.

[The Kings Foot]

4 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

so what would boras have done if luke took him up on the betrothal offer? Would his support have been halfsies?

He'd have started a bidding war trying to get gifts and concessions.  Unfortunately the Greens have more to offer and he knows it.

[MrsR]

6 minutes ago, ursula said:

her three children are bastards

Actually it's five bastard children. Her marriage to Daemon is a fraud.

And let's not forget that Daemon GROOMED her as a teenager. Super creepy relationship being romanticized by weirdo fans. Ick. Very big ick.

[WaltersHair]

Are the Darthraki going to show up, or are they so far off the glowing map we don't see them?

I also hope one of Daemon's daughters steals their mother's dragon back.

[Constantinople]

6 minutes ago, SeanC said:

But they have no authority to call the betrothals off. Baela and Rhaena are Daemon's daughters, they're his to betroth as he sees fit, answerable only to the head of House Targaryen (which is Rhaenyra, as they see it).

They're betrothed to Jace "Velaryon" and Luke "Velaryon" and Corlys is the head of House Velaryon.

[SeanC]

1 minute ago, Constantinople said:

They're betrothed to Jace "Velaryon" and Luke "Velaryon" and Corlys is the head of House Velaryon.

If they're not on Rhaenyra's side, nobody is going to listen to them about that (which would be tenuous anyway, as they're also Rhaenyra's direct heirs and she has her own house).

[jeansheridan]

I believe Aemond and Helena love each other. I think Alicent loves her children and they respect her but I think it was weird Aemond didn't move to protect her when the dragon roared. Helena seems more annoyed by her mother's inability to listen to her. She gave a perfectly clear warning. Twice now! Good odds really. 

I think both Alicient and Rhynaera are flawed and capable in different ways. Alicient seems to know how to run a kingdom a bit better- the dull day to day.  Rhynaera seems to have a big picture idea of ruling. The destiny piece. If only they teamed up. But that's a different story unfortunately. 

[blackwing]

50 minutes ago, MrsR said:

Well Aemond can't take it back, He's the only witness to what actually happened. The Baratheons can attest that he threatened Luke. So despite the fact that it was Vaghar's move and not Aemond's, he might as well claim it.  That way he looks like he's in control and a badass.

Even though he threatened Lucerys and Sir Boros admonished him to let him go, he could easily spin it as him being the victim.  He wanted to show Luke that his dragon was bigger and stronger, just a harmless flyby, to remind him of who was in power.  Then for some reason, Luke had his dragon attack his.  So his dragon killed the other dragon in self defense.

I have no doubt that Alicent and Aemond will come away from this incident acting like Rhaenyra’s side attacked first.  

[jeansheridan]

16 minutes ago, WaltersHair said:

Are the Darthraki going to show up, or are they so far off the glowing map we don't see them?

Probably not. But we can hope for those kickass Martells to roll in. GOT never served them well and they're so complex and cool.

Edited October 24, 2022 by jeansheridan

[bunnyblue]

1 hour ago, Sakura12 said:

Unlike the Green's the Black's seem to actually love one another.

I agree. The kids all get along, and Rhaenyra is an affectionate mother. Corlys & Rhaenys seem to have a good marriage and have embraced their granddaughters. Daemon is the only one who doesn't seem to love anyone. His one redeeming quality was his love for Viserys & Rhaenyra, but Viserys is dead and after the events of this episode, I don't know what he feels for Rhaenyra anymore.

I knew it was coming, and I really didn't want to watch it, but I'm grateful that at least it was quick death for Luke and Arrax. They were both so afraid in their last moments though. Actually poor Luke was terrified the moment he entered Storm's End and saw that psycho watching him. I don't care if the show made this into a "whoopsie" moment for Aemond, the fact is he was terrorizing his young nephew from moment he saw him and was acting like the big bad bully with his big vicious dragon. He chased after him - once again the Greens are the aggressors. This was road rage but with dragons, and Grandma Vhagar didn't come to play children's games. He got her riled up and couldn't control her. Now dumbass Aemond will either have to admit he can't control his dragon or lean into the villain role. I expect he'll embrace being a villain. Good job in destroying any chance at avoiding war, asshole.

[Oscirus]

8 minutes ago, jeansheridan said:

I believe Aemond and Helena love each other. I think Alicent loves her children and they respect her but I think it was weird Aemond didn't move to protect her when the dragon roared. Helena seems more annoyed by her mother's inability to listen to her. She gave a perfectly clear warning. Twice now! Good odds really. 

I think both Alicient and Rhynaera are flawed and capable in different ways. Alicient seems to know how to run a kingdom a bit better- the dull day to day.  Rhynaera seems to have a big picture idea of ruling. The destiny piece. If only they teamed up. But that's a different story unfortunately. 

Aemond and Helena are probs the only two that love each other. Everybody else tolerates each other.  Closest relation we have to normal on team green is the one between cole and aemond

[AntFTW]

The outbred Targaryens are more fucked up than the inbred Targaryens.

[CountryGirl]

Ewan acted the hell out of the “WTF have I DONE?!?” moments. 

However, I don’t view Luc’s death as an accident. Aemond was spoiling for a fight from the moment he knew Lucerys had arrived. He taunted him, threatened him, with his demands for an “eye for an eye.”

Luc made it abundantly clear he was there as a messenger only and that he did not want any part of a fight. He literally flew away on Arrax. 

Aemond could have let him go but he chose to chase after him on the biggest, strongest, most battle-tested dragon in the world. That it ended badly with Luc and Arrax dying (and RIP to that sweet boy, who died in service to his mother, and his poor, young dragon) could hardly be a total surprise to Aemond. More of WTF did you THINK would happen? 

[sistermagpie]

16 minutes ago, blackwing said:

Even though he threatened Lucerys and Sir Boros admonished him to let him go, he could easily spin it as him being the victim.  He wanted to show Luke that his dragon was bigger and stronger, just a harmless flyby, to remind him of who was in power.  Then for some reason, Luke had his dragon attack his.  So his dragon killed the other dragon in self defense.

I have no doubt that Alicent and Aemond will come away from this incident acting like Rhaenyra’s side attacked first.  

I don't think anybody would buy that. Luke said he wasn't there as a warrior and then left. There was no reason for him to be showing Luke anything about his dragon - everyone knows that she's bigger and stronger. So much bigger and so much stronger that nothing Luke did could have been an attack. And then his dragon ate them both in one bite.

Yeah, hard to spin that one as a victim. 

[Constantinople]

26 minutes ago, SeanC said:

If they're not on Rhaenyra's side, nobody is going to listen to them about that (which would be tenuous anyway, as they're also Rhaenyra's direct heirs and she has her own house).

The main point is that Corlys thinks Rhaenyra is responsible for his son's death yet rather than sit out the war or he's going to fight for Rhaenyra because...reasons.

[LadyChaos]

LOVED THE COUNSEL TABLE! LOOOOVVVVVVEEEEDDDD ITTT!

Daemon choking Rhaenyra...I mean, we've always known that Daemon was a monster and a warrior....sometimes both.....And you can't deny that he really loved those that he loved. In this episode, he lost his brother and his child.....Im not making excuses, but I think finding out that he was kept out of this family secret about a prophecy....might have been the thing that pushed him over the edge.

I also can't help it....but I feel like the actors for Aemond and Lucerys probably felt ridiculous filming that dragon fight scene.

[MrWhyt]

38 minutes ago, WaltersHair said:

Are the Darthraki going to show up, or are they so far off the glowing map we don't see them?

the Dothraki aren't on this continent, they're native to Essos

[snickers]

RIP Luke and Arrax

43 minutes ago, blackwing said:

He wanted to show Luke that his dragon was bigger and stronger, just a harmless flyby, to remind him of who was in power.  Then for some reason, Luke had his dragon attack his.  So his dragon killed the other dragon in self defense.

Something tells me this is going to be the topic of this episode like the whole, "who started the take out the eye fight", but CLEARLY NEITHER AEMOND NOR LUKE HAD CONTROL OF THEIR DRAGONS IN THAT MOMENT!  Luke even told Arrax before they took off to "listen" and "serve" so obviously the younger dragon had a habit of not listening, and Aemond clearly can't control his Grandma after all of these years, Vheager killing Arrax in self defense? yeah right, she was just annoyed that little baby dragon tried to burn out her eyes, (it looked like Arrax was going for the eyes which was smart)

Viserys was smart not to take another dragon after the black dread died

Did people forget Daenerys couldn't control Drogon? Remember the what was it, 2 seasons he was "roaming free?"

54 minutes ago, MrsR said:

And let's not forget that Daemon GROOMED her as a teenager. Super creepy relationship being romanticized by weirdo fans. Ick. Very big ick.

Did you watch GOT? there are people who ship Cersei and Jamie.....

And one can't really be "team green" either considering Aegon is married to his sister and has kids with her.......

35 minutes ago, bunnyblue said:

Now dumbass Aemond will either have to admit he can't control his dragon or lean into the villain role. I expect he'll embrace being a villain. Good job in destroying any chance at avoiding war, asshole.

I think he'll take ownership of what happened and say he did it next season, but I think deep down he won't like being the villain, (that's Cole's role LOL), while I don't like the greens, Aemond is 50 shades of gray like his uncle....he's "complicated"

I think the straight up villains are Cole and Otto, I'm anxiously awaiting their deaths (someday)

2024 can't come soon enough 😞

Edited October 24, 2022 by snickers

[magdalene]

4 minutes ago, snickers said:

I think the straight up villains are Cole and Otto, I'm anxiously awaiting their deaths (someday)

And Larys. Don't forget Larys.

[snickers]

1 minute ago, magdalene said:

And Larys. Don't forget Larys.

OMG YES! thank you!

I try not to think of him 🤣

[jeansheridan]

8 minutes ago, snickers said:

think the straight up villains are Cole and Otto, I'm anxiously awaiting their deaths (someday)

Ditto. Rhyners may be a Queen of Thorns type. Causing issues behind the scenes.

[Oscirus]

Next season will likely be otto and daemon corrupting Alicent and rhaenyra

[magdalene]

What was Daemon singing to the dragon?  They should have subtitled it?

[yellowfred]

1 minute ago, Constantinople said:

The main point is that Corlys thinks Rhaenyra is responsible for his son's death yet rather than sit out the war or he's going to fight for Rhaenyra because...reasons.

I think Rhaenys' point to him was, more or less, that they're already in it.  Their granddaughters are betrothed to Rheanyra's two oldest sons and they're all there on Dragonstone.  There isn't a way for them to gracefully bow out.  Plus, I think that she believes that Rhaenyra is approaching the upcoming conflict with a steady hand, which meant that she'd avoid war if she could.  Before Luc's death, I think the option was very much still on the table that Rhaenyra would gather her forces and they'd be substantial enough that the Greens would surrender. 

I thought it was interesting how Rhaenyra and Team Black didn't think to offer anything to the Baratheons to gain their loyalty.  I feel like that's an aspect of politics that the Targaryens are maybe not that well versed in, while the Greens/Hightowers would think of it as second nature, because that's how you gain allies when you're not counting on your flying death machines to keep them in line.

Speaking of flying death machines, I liked the fact that Luc and Aemond figured out too late that there are limits to how much you can control them in an actual fight.  Flying around and breathing fire at human troops is one thing, but fighting another dragon is on a different level.  It's not surprising that Arrax and Vhagar would both follow their own fighting instincts, rather than the commands of their respective riders.

[FnkyChkn34]

Both sides have serious issues. If you want to root for one, you have to pick whichever one is the lesser of two evils for what matters most to you. Incest? Whatever. Both sides have incest, so that's not really a factor to me. Plus, it's GoT, it's acceptable to that society. So then I look to Otto and Alicent and think that their scheming and plotting murders are "worse" than Daemon's bad deeds, and Aegon is just vile. So I pick Team Black. But that's just me. 

I don't understand where all these extra dragons have come from all of a sudden. Some of the kids haven't had one, but if there are more, then why? They could have at least tried to approach one before now, couldn't they? 

Otto forgot Joffrey. He said what the other 4 kids could have in his little deal, but I didn't hear him remember to say anything about Joffrey. 

Aemond started it. Again. He goaded Luke in the hall, then flew out after him after the Baratheon lord tried to give him safe passage home with the answer. This isn't like the eye debate, IMO, it's way more obvious. After Aemond did that, then both lost control of their dragons, but if Aemond hadn't pursued him, then Luce would have just gone home. His death was like the definition of felony murder - a (usually) accidental killing that takes place while committing a different crime. Maybe it was ultimately an accident, but it never would have happened if Aemond wasn't already harassing him.

Who is Jack? Does everyone mean Jace?  I hope he has more luck in the Vale and Winterfell...

[Stardancer Supreme]

Damn.  RIP to Baby Targaryen, Lucerys, and Arrax. I knew someone was going to die, but I wasn't expecting it to be Lucerys. Poor sweet child.  I was hoping that Rhaenyra would have fried Otto's slimy rump on the spot. He was so smug on that tiny bridge facing a dragon. 

Corlys made it back to life! Never doubted him; but now he has lost his heir. Rhaena gets Driftmark now.  I feel for her as well, losing her betrothed.

So Rhaenyra wasn't that far along in her last pregnancy.  At least she survived this birth. She knew this baby wouldn't survive and needed to get it out; she's a G, for real.  There probably won't be any more children since Daemon snapped out on her. 

So Daemon is attempting to ride another dragon? How does that work? Would Caraxes attack Vermithor (I don't think so, since this dragon seems to be as big as Vhagar)?

Sea Smoke remained at Driftmark. So it is possible for riders to break bonds with dragons, apparently.

The less said about Aemond, the better. He just couldn't let things go. Alicent should have smacked him a few times...

[snickers]

3 minutes ago, Stardancer Supreme said:

So Daemon is attempting to ride another dragon? How does that work? Would Caraxes attack Vermithor (I don't think so, since this dragon seems to be as big as Vhagar)?

This is just a guess...but I think Daemon is trying to "claim" Vermithor for his daughter...Rheana....in the scene where he said some of the older dragons were riderless the scene i believe then cut to her...and maybe this is his way of making up for "losing Vhegar" to Aemond....

He also then mentions these wild dragons who live on the island....he thinks they can claim them? Who's going to ride them? I'm with Queen Rhae on that one....they are really no match dragon wise to Vhegar...maybe IF someone can ride Vermithor, but they don't really have 13 to 4....that was a pipe dream thinking the next day they could "have all of the greens heads on spikes"

Then again after what happened, maybe they should have let him try....

[Sofie Fatale]

So I guess this will be the catalyst for hundreds of years of animosity between the Targaryens and Baratheons, right up until Robert’s Rebellion.

Edited October 24, 2022 by Sofie Fatale

[Oscirus]

4 minutes ago, Sofie Fatale said:

So I guess this will be the catalyst for hundreds of years of animosity between the Targaryens and Baratheons, right up until Robert’s Rebellion.

Not really, he gets along with half the targeryans

[FnkyChkn34]

3 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

Not really, he gets along with half the targeryans

Until the one betrothed to his daughter (Aemond, I assume, but I don't think they actually confirmed) starts acting like Aegon does towards his wife...

[RobertDeSneero]

I was ready to root for Aemond being a badass finally getting revenge for his eye, so I'm kind of disappointed that Luke Strong died because Aemond couldn't control his dragon.  He'd still be alive if he'd just given up his eye like a good little bastard.

[AntFTW]

1 minute ago, RobertDeSneero said:

Aemond being a badass finally getting revenge for his eye

Revenge for losing his eye, which he lost because he was about to bash Jace's head with a rock.

[Oscirus]

3 minutes ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

Until the one betrothed to his daughter (Aemond, I assume, but I don't think they actually confirmed) starts acting like Aegon does towards his wife...

In this world these people dont give a shit as well as Aemond and her provide heirs

Just now, AntFTW said:

Revenge for losing his eye, which he lost because he was about to bash Jace's head with a rock.

Thats not true, he got slashed for calling them bastards. He dropped the rock by the time the knife came out

[AntFTW]

7 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

Thats not true, he got slashed for calling them bastards. He dropped the rock by the time the knife came out

Nope. He had the rock in his hand when Luke grabbed the dagger. Jace was on the ground and threw dirt in Aemond's face while Aemond was standing over him with the rock raised up, and that's when Aemond was slashed in the face.

Edited October 24, 2022 by AntFTW

[Oscirus]

4 minutes ago, AntFTW said:

Nope. He had the rock in his hand when Luke grabbed the dagger. Jace was on the ground and threw dirt in Aemond's face while Aemond was standing over him with the rock raised up, and that's when Aemond was slashed in the face.

He grabbed luke had the rock raised. Called luke a bastard dropped his hands at his side, and released luke, the knife came out and he only used the rock to defend himself from the knife after that. 

[AntFTW]

1 minute ago, Oscirus said:

He grabbed luke had the rock raised. Called luke a bastard dropped his hands at his side, and released luke, the knife came out and he only used the rock to defend himself from the knife after that. 

Then Jace fell to the ground and dropped the dagger, and Aemond stood over him with the rock.

[Cool Breeze]

I wonder if the Baratheons will change sides now given Aemond's killing of his nephew.  No word-parsing here.  He killed him.  And the Baratheons have more than enough reason to believe it was intentional given Aemond's actions in their castle. 

Perhaps they'll determine Aemond, and by extension, the Greens, are unstable psychopaths who can't be trusted and to whom he doesn't want any of his daughters betrothed?  And then, maybe Baratheon will reverse course and decide to uphold his father's original oath to Rhaenyra?  Maybe?

[Stardancer Supreme]

10 minutes ago, Cool Breeze said:

I wonder if the Baratheons will change sides now given Aemond's killing of his nephew.  No word-parsing here.  He killed him.  And the Baratheons have more than enough reason to believe it was intentional given Aemond's actions in their castle. 

Perhaps they'll determine Aemond, and by extension, the Greens, are unstable psychopaths who can't be trusted and to whom he doesn't want any of his daughters betrothed?  And then, maybe Baratheon will reverse course and decide to uphold his father's original oath to Rhaenyra?  Maybe?

I don't know; Borros seemed insulted with Rhaenyra's message and not too conciliatory to her messenger.  He only stopped Aemond because he didn't want any bloodshed on his property. 

[ursula]

16 minutes ago, Cool Breeze said:

I wonder if the Baratheons will change sides now given Aemond's killing of his nephew.  No word-parsing here.  He killed him.  And the Baratheons have more than enough reason to believe it was intentional given Aemond's actions in their castle. 

Perhaps they'll determine Aemond, and by extension, the Greens, are unstable psychopaths who can't be trusted and to whom he doesn't want any of his daughters betrothed?  And then, maybe Baratheon will reverse course and decide to uphold his father's original oath to Rhaenyra?  Maybe?

More like they'll realize that the Greens are going to win this War and they'd better stay on the winning side. This is a medieval fantasy and Baratheons are war mongers by (Stormy) nature. They don't give af about the mental stability of a ruler who's winning battles.

[thuganomics85]

Hot damn!  War is coming and it's all thanks to one of the most violent ways to learn the harsh truth.  It doesn't matter how good of a rider you are: when it is all said and done it is the dragon that is really in charge!

Because, yeah, despite his general psychotic behavior, I really don't think Aemond actually wanted to kill Luke.  At most, he probably really did want to get "an eye for an eye" for their fight years ago, but I really do believe the chase was all him showing off and scaring Luke.  But, alas, the dragons got scared, took this seriously, and now poor Luke is the first death in what is likely going to be a war with many more.  Bravo, Aemond.  That said, I doubt he's actually going to have any real regret over this: if anything, I'm guessing he's going to pretend that it wasn't an accident and going to play it off like he struck the first blow.  Either what or try to claim Luke was the one that tried to kill him first, which would strain credibility but it's not like Alicent, Otto, and the rest of the Greens aren't against ignoring things to better their position and maintain their "morality."  Hope it's all worth it, guys!

Good to know that when the shit goes down, Daemon drops the nice guy (by his standards) act real quick!  Barely giving a damn when his wife is suffering through an extremely problematic birth, threatening others with some good old-fashioned "swear your loyalty or I'm going to be giving this dragon a nice snack!", and even grabbing his supposed beloved by the throat.  Yikes!  Still can't believe that the guy who played arguably one of the more silly (in a good way) Doctors can be so damn scary!

Poor Rhaenyra tried to do what was right by her father and avoid bloodshed, only for all of this to happen.  Her reaction to Luke's death was heartbreaking and chilling.  I can only imagine how this is going to change her going forward.

Enjoyed seeing the Baratheon ancestors and getting some more name drops like the Starks, Arryns, and Tullys.  Hope we get more of them next season.  The Lord of the Rings fan in me would love it if they got the likes of David Wenham and/or John Noble to play some of the Starks!

Glad Corlys is faring a bit better.  Rhaenys claim that she didn't want to be the one to "strike the first blow" seems a bit flimsy.  Especially since it wouldn't have been a first blow: she would have straight up ended this thing if she just uttered that one word last week.

All in all, a few flaws here or there; mainly the time jumps making some moments fell rushed or unearned; but considering how underwhelmed I was by season eight of the mothership, this season exceeded my expectations and made for some damn fine television.  The look and feel of it is still spot on, the characters range from flawed to downright horrible but still fascinating to watch, and the build up to the war has been close to perfect.  And they struck gold with the casting again.  A few that I'll personally single out; in particular, Matt Smith, Emma D'Arcy, Olivia Cooke, Milly Alcock, and especially Paddy Considine; but almost everyone brought their A+ game here.  I can not wait to see how this plays out.  Worst part will definitely be the likely long wait.  But it was great revisiting Westeros again!  That crazy place still knows how to bring on the fireworks!

[bunnyblue]

2 hours ago, AntFTW said:

I'm curious of who are they doing to get to ride the dragon. Do they have anymore possible dragon riders left of "flying age"? Maybe Rhaena?

She would be the logical choice. I think Daemon royally screwed up by not encouraging Rhaena to claim Vhagar after Laena's death and before they returned to Westeros. So I hope Daemon singing to Vermithor is him having some foresight this time and also him showing some interest is his dragonless daughter.

Rhaenys standing off to the side reacting and smirking to what Rhaenyra & Daemon were saying and doing was everything. She even gave Baela a look when she stepped away from her and went to stand next to Jace. I'm glad the Sea Snake is back in the game and that he declared for Rhaenyra, and that Rhaenys is the one who guided him to that decision.

Watching poor Rhaenyra struggle through yet another birth, makes my heart ache for the girl she was who declared she didn't want to end up locked in a tower giving birth to babies. Poor Jace and Luke having to see their mother in the throes of a bloody messy labor. 

Daemon has wanted a war against the Greens for decades and is finally going to get it. Rhaenyra nailed it when said that Daemon was already "Gone to madness. Gone to plot his war." She barely managed to keep him in check this episode, but after what Aemond did there will be no stopping Daemon now. But I guess, Rhaenyra doesn't want to stop him now either. 

[CatWarmer]

One thing I don't really understand - how does anyone (other than Aemond) know what happened to Luke and his dragon?  Do the dragons communicate with each other and then with their riders?  The air fight certainly happened out of sight of anyone else.  So if Aemond just plays dumb and says he went for a ride to clear his head, how would anyone know different?  For all anyone knows, Luke could have ridden his dragon into a mountain in the storm and disappeared,

So how does everyone know what happened so quickly?

[Oscirus]

If aegon has bastards running around, I dont imagine that hes the only one. I could easily see daemon with a few bastards as well as other targs .

[Chicago Redshirt]

3 hours ago, Oscirus said:

Rhaenyra trying to keep the peace is quite naive. There is no way that she can possibly think that they'd not try to kill her in the future even if she accepts the terms.

War time daemon is scary daemon. Hes not playing

Jack is the only other player of note so far. He mightve legit made a good king. 

The Greens don't need Rhae dead. If she bends the knee, how many people would fight for her? It sounds like nearly no one, based on what we've seen in this episode. At least in their accounting of their strength, they had about a half-dozen lords in their corner with a few seemingly either on the fence or only willing to support her because they take the oath to her/Viserys seriously. If Rhae would go for a peaceful surrender, who would contest it or fight on despite her? Probably no one.

This is in contrast to the fact that Westeros thinks women aren't fit to be actual rulers, and so the existence of a suitable male heir directly descended from Viserys would be enough to make Rhae's rule uneasy.

3 hours ago, Oscirus said:

If one was naive enough to think that the greens would honor the terms, the greens terms arent all that bad

I don't think we have seen any sign that the Greens generally go back on their word, and further, they don't have any incentive to here. "Surrender your claim and you get to keep what you already have" does not cost the Greens anything to maintain.

The Hightowers probably could have made a more persuasive pitch.

2 hours ago, Constantinople said:

Aside from not choking his wife, Daemon also needs to step back and think before jumping to conclusions.

If the Greens were going to murder Viserys, they would have done it when Rhaenyra and Daemon were in King's Landing and could have been arrested along with Jace, Luke, Joffrey, etc.

If Rhaenys were supporting the Greens, she would have never flown to Dragonstone to tell Rhaenyra what happened.

There's  a disincentive for the Greens to openly murder Viserys and to arrest Rhae. Such actions could cost them political support. 

There's also the possibility that Rhaenys was in league with the Greens and came to Dragonstone as part of a plot. We know that she was telling the truth about having escaped the Greens, but IMO, Occam's Razor favors "I'm secretly in league with the Greens and I'm here to feed you information for some nefarious reason" over "The Greens had me prisoner but I escaped the room I was locked up in, got to my dragon and peaced out,  but not before threatening them but not following through." 

The other thing is that we can't assume that the Greens, Rhae or anyone will make the optimal moves or even good moves.; People make stupid mistakes for numerous reasons.

2 hours ago, Constantinople said:

One thing I'm not buying is that Corlys would support Rhaenyra after saying she was complicit in his son's death.

Corlys also has other reasons to be anti-Rhae: Rhae polluted his family line. Dae killed his brother.

But  there are quite a few reasons for him to be pro Rhae, including:

1. Rhaenys (who he seemingly does love) pointed out that Rhae actually gives a shit about the welfare of the people and the risk they face if war happens.

2. The betrothals and their family ties to the Targaryens are still greater than the ties to the Hightowers. 

3. As he points out, the Greens are oathbreakers, and Corlys seems to be a man of honor.

4. In the might=right scenario, Team Black has more dragons, which arguably is the only thing that matters. 

5. Given the choice of Rhae or Aegon to be the ruler, most anybody who knows them would have to say Rhae would far far better for the job.

2 hours ago, Oscirus said:

OK from a war standpoint, jack and baelas dragons are worthless, if vhagar can take out those baby dragons with one bite, I cant imagine  theirs have any more of a chance in the upcoming war.

I don't think in general one can extrapolate from this episode what might happen in other battles.

Arraxas seemingly was scared and stupidly attacked Vhaegar. Both dragons were out of control of their riders. 

We can't tell from that how things would go if the dragons were operating in concert with their riders, or if the Blacks decided to double/triple/quadruple team Vhaegar or if they concentrated efforts on killing Aemond in combat, or if they took action to neutralize Aemond to by extension take Vhaegar out of the equation before there were a dragon battle.

1 hour ago, Lady Whistleup said:

I kind of wonder how next season will develop the Greens, since the writers tipped their hands so much by favoring the Blacks. In the land of the Blacks, parents and children love each other. Promises are kept. There's usually no gratuitous cruelty.

In the land of the Greens, the king is a rapist, Alicent's two head honchos are psychos, and Aemond killed Luke. Alicent does have nice feet I guess.

I think that paints too rosy a picture of the Blacks and too negative a picture of the Greens.

Alicent loves her children, and I think even Otto loves Alicent in his messed up misogynist way. There have been a lot of people who think that Daemon doesn't really love his children by his first wife. 

I'm not sure which promises you're referring to as having been kept. But it seems like the only promises the Blacks have kept is to do what they want.

Daemon is a murderer, adulterer, bigamist, psycho. A charming one, but he could easily be as bad as Larys  and Ser Christon if not worse. 

1 hour ago, Oscirus said:

so what would boras have done if luke took him up on the betrothal offer? Would his support have been halfsies?

He probably would have sought a bidding war between the two halves of the House until someone made him the proverbial offer he couldn't refuse. 

[Oscirus]

20 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

The Greens don't need Rhae dead. If she bends the knee, how many people would fight for her? It sounds like nearly no one, based on what we've seen in this episode. At least in their accounting of their strength, they had about a half-dozen lords in their corner with a few seemingly either on the fence or only willing to support her because they take the oath to her/Viserys seriously. If Rhae would go for a peaceful surrender, who would contest it or fight on despite her? Probably no one.

Her and her kids are a threat as long as they're alive. If Aegon turned out to be a shitty leader, which lets be real. There could easily be supporters pushing for Rhae and if not for rhae, for the newly legitmitized Jace. 

[gingerella]

On 10/23/2022 at 7:19 PM, SilverStormm said:

Luke didn't - poor scared little Arrax acted of his own accord out of fear. Both dragons acted independently of their riders in fighting.

Which goes back to the comment at the beginning if this epi where it sounded like this idea if using dragons for war was not a good move. If dragons are ultimately ungovernable them they could turn on each other in the heat of battle and screw over their own riders. That's all I got from that. 

Bye brown haired non-targ Targ..you were too sweet for this show.

I guess S02 will be scorched earth, pun intended...

Edited October 26, 2022 by gingerella