S01.E09: Whose Show is This?

[ItCouldBeWorse]

19 hours ago, steelyis said:

Please, let there be a season two, KEVIN!

I think you mean K.E.V.I.N.

2 hours ago, kay1864 said:

2. Anybody else not realize right away that the bro party was at the lodge?

I don't think we were supposed to realize it.  I didn't

2 hours ago, kay1864 said:

Who was the blonde flirting with Matt at the picnic table? I don’t remember seeing her before.

Jen's aunt.

[whiporee]

Was the dancing scene the Sestras? 

What if the whole second season is an extended dream sequence? (nodding approvals)

Everybody has to sign the NDA. 

When are we getting the X-Men? I can't tell you that.

Jen's hopeful face at the idea of he big screen. And whatever, Kevin. 

I loved it. Laughed out loud for 20 minutes.   

[angora]

1 hour ago, HelloooKitty said:

Well, I really liked it. I totally am on team Jent. Mant? She devil? Dare hulk?

If we're "using fake names" (tm Peter Parker,) She Devil gets my vote. For real names, Waldock could work.

[phalange]

1 hour ago, angora said:

If we're "using fake names" (tm Peter Parker,) She Devil gets my vote. For real names, Waldock could work.

I like SheDevil too. I've also seen people using "courtship" which is cute. 

[Bruinsfan]

20 hours ago, phalange said:

I knew it was going to be good when it began with a throwback to the old school Marvel tv shows.

Everything Jen went through was so upsetting to watch. She was the victim of a sex crime and she lost her job and her apartment and her privacy. I love that her family was so supportive, especially her dad spraying the reporters with a hose, because fuck the water restrictions. Love Nikki and Pug helping Jen take down Intelligencia from the inside. Poor Pug looked so uncomfortable. Actual lol at Nikki telling him to call women "females" to really sell it, because yeah...immediate red flag. Glad Todd is being held accountable, but what about that bastard Josh?

He was depicted sweating it out in one of the courtroom sketches at the end.

3 hours ago, paigow said:

The other Defenders will be redundant if Jen moves to NYC.

Oh no, you mean we might not get more Iron Fist? What a shame that would be.

It's funny to me how very uninterested I was in Bruce showing up for the finale (both times), whereas I cheered when Daredevil literally dropped into frame.

Edited October 14, 2022 by Bruinsfan

[PurpleTentacle]

5 hours ago, arc said:

They literally cut to the post-climax right after Jen asked K.E.V.I.N. about the most budget-friendly way to do her next step.

And that makes it okay? Well  on my next show I'm going to go meta and broadcast a black picture for 10 episodes, because that is super budget friendly!

[Llywela]

49 minutes ago, PurpleTentacle said:

And that makes it okay?

It was part of the same joke, the undercutting of typical Marvel tropes. What actually happened at the lodge wasn't important to the storyline. The Intelligencia ringleaders had already been identified and outed. All that was truly needed to wrap up that storyline was getting them arrested, which we saw happening. The attempt at turning it into a big climactic fight scene between hulks was what Jen protested against and got reversed, so none of that happened. No CGI superhero fight scene. All that really happened was the unveiling of Intelligencia (and Emil being caught breaking parole). So cutting to the aftermath was fine, because all we'd have missed is someone calling the cops (and maybe barring the door to stop anyone running for it).

Edited October 14, 2022 by Llywela

[Danny Franks]

I've watched a few reactions to the finale on YouTube, and most seem to get the whole set up to the meta ending - that it feels weird and off that Todd gets Hulk powers, that Titania and Bruce show up and there's going to be a huge fight. It didn't make sense, it didn't fit the show, and it was just another lame way to end a show (the exact thing I remember people complaining about when Wandavision ended with witches throwing CGI at each other).

So Jen stops it because it's a cop out. It's falling back on the MCU crutch of 'big final battle.'

But then there are a few reactors I've watched (and surely a bunch I haven't) who are completely stumped. They don't get it, they're borderline offended, because they just want the big Hulk Smash finale and seem to struggle with the idea that a show doesn't have to have a huge, climactic action scene.

My only criticism is that, instead of having the family barbecue, I'd have done a montage of Todd and other Intelligencia losers in court, being found guilty and crying about woke culture destroying them. Cut in some shots of Wongers and Madisynn watching another show, Jen and Matt hanging out, maybe Shulkie going to some kind of Avengers try-out.

I also wouldn't have introduced Skaar in this, I'd have left that dangling thread with K.E.V.I.N's mention of it.

[PurpleTentacle]

2 hours ago, Llywela said:

It was part of the same joke, the undercutting of typical Marvel tropes. What actually happened at the lodge wasn't important to the storyline. The Intelligencia ringleaders had already been identified and outed. All that was truly needed to wrap up that storyline was getting them arrested, which we saw happening. The attempt at turning it into a big climactic fight scene between hulks was what Jen protested against and got reversed, so none of that happened. No CGI superhero fight scene. All that really happened was the unveiling of Intelligencia (and Emil being caught breaking parole). So cutting to the aftermath was fine, because all we'd have missed is someone calling the cops (and maybe barring the door to stop anyone running for it).

That's nice and all. It still doesn't change that they broadcast the aquivalent of a black screen. You can absolutely subvert Marvel tropes and do something different, but you have to replace it with something interesting and this wasn't it. You know what would have been different from Marvel and still interesting? Jen actually dragging these assholes to court and us seeing the legal drama. Now that would have been a finale!

"I'm subverting tropes!" isn't a magic spell and doesn't automatically make something itneresting.

[Enigma X]

I really enjoyed the show and respect the ending. With that said, it was too meta for me. I am definitely not hating it. Not every style is for everyone, and I agree with 95% of what She-Hulk brought up with K.E.V.I.N. I did enjoy Todd not becoming a hulk, Bruce not saving the day, Blonsky not allowing She-Hulk to be attacked, Pug and Nikki, She-Devil, Skaar (sp) and Bruce, and Mr. Walters. 

Breaking the 4th wall is entertaining, but being too Meta sort of rips me out of the created world.

[TimothyQ]

Meta is great, but meta-meta is exhausting. The problem I've had with this series is everything is just too "look at what I'm doing here!" and not enough just doing it. Subvert the Marvel tropes, please, but we don't need so much of the "hey y'all, check out the way I subvert the tropes!" If you have to explain everything you do on screen, you've lost the thread. WandaVision certainly didn't do that. It created a multi-episode world that didn't try to explain itself, but let what was happening on screen speak for itself and unravel naturally. And also we get a She-Hulk fight scene in the last episode, but the finale is "MCU fight scenes are stupid"? Come on.

[johntfs]

10 hours ago, HelloooKitty said:

we didn’t have to see Madisynn, we could’ve just heard a “Wongers!” As Emil stepped through  

That's a casualty of the Marvel Production System.  With other shows you'd have the Fall season with some more filming during the winter or whatever so that if there was an unexpectedly popular breakout character, the showrunners could take that into account and do more with that person.

But She-Hulk has likely been "in the can" for at least six months to a year.  We might get more Madisynn in an eventual Season Two.

[Raja]

12 hours ago, kay1864 said:

1. What exactly was she convicted of? Smashing a big TV screen at an event? And the penalty is… take away all her powers?

Well she took a plea to be done with it. And then came the thought of something "I thought that is what I wanted". Just as happens all the time in real life

In the end the series played to me like a MCU show with the qualities of Bob Hearts Abishola. The situation kept me interested, but for most of the run the comedy didn't have me laughing throughout the 30 minutes. The finale did make me laugh more than the other episodes and the DareDevil episode really gave us a lot of MCU situation.

Coming out of the series I guess K.E.V.I.N. can let Wong keep Madisynn in future appearances along with an Abomination to diversify the defenses of Kamar-Taj since sorcerers alone failed against the Scarlet Witch. Most of the other deep pull characters are probably expended like the Inhumans and few others used on Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. And bringing in Bruce's son was from the "all connected" dream that was dropped when Joss Whedon was dropped and so went that connection  AoS provided from ABC TV to the movies

[Spartan Girl]

On 10/13/2022 at 6:39 PM, GHScorpiosRule said:

If he was blackmailed into doing it, he wouldn’t have had a shit eating grin as he texted mission accomplished. He’s just as guilty and dirty as Todd.

Why couldn’t Jen’s rewrite have involved Josh randomly showing up just so that she could kick him in the nuts?!

Then again, the MCU does love leaving loose ends that get half-assed attention later, if they’re even picked up at all.

K.E.V.I.N. can fuck himself. Sorry I couldn’t pass up that opportunity 😆😆😆😆

Edited October 20, 2022 by Spartan Girl

[AimingforYoko]

7 hours ago, PurpleTentacle said:

"I'm subverting tropes!" isn't a magic spell and doesn't automatically make something itneresting

To you. It doesn't make it interesting to you. There's a Dude quote that seems appropriate here...

[shapeshifter]

I floved the ending. 

14 hours ago, whiporee said:

Was the dancing scene the Sestras?

I wondered that too.

[Jediknight]

On 10/13/2022 at 8:51 AM, Chicago Redshirt said:

2. Pug takes on Smug Boy's civil suit against Runa

Good god, Dennis Bukowski.

On 10/13/2022 at 2:01 PM, thuganomics85 said:

Loved Nikki and Pug working together to help Jen: including poor Pug having to pretend to be sexist troll.  After his time on Arrow, I never knew I would find Josh Segarra to be so lovable in a role again!

Segara was channeling Adrian Chase with the look on his face during that.  He was playing that Pug just wanted to beat the crap out of all of them.

17 hours ago, kay1864 said:

Yeah no kidding. She-Hulk smash!

That's for Matt Murdock.

I loved this show.  I think I might rank it 2nd behind Hawkeye when it comes to the Disney+ MCU shows.  It was so much fun.  Tatiana Masley smashed it.  I liked the Jen, Nikki, and Pug friendship, they didn't try to shoehorn a romance.  Matt and Emil were great, and Emil was serious about changing.  Give us season 2, soon.

[arc]

6 hours ago, johntfs said:

But She-Hulk has likely been "in the can" for at least six months to a year.  We might get more Madisynn in an eventual Season Two.

Sure, but it would have been relatively easy to get the actress back for one off screen line. Then open the portal off screen, have her line while the camera's on Emil, then cut to Wong.

[paigow]

Nobody on the writing staff seems old enough but that ending was 80% Blazing Saddles... The lodge fight scene could have been extended a bit so that Hulk and Abomination crash onto the Hawkeye set and Kingpin throws a hissy fit that his take was spoiled...

[Ailianna]

On 10/14/2022 at 12:03 AM, whiporee said:

Was the dancing scene the Sestras? 

I checked that because I had the same thought. I really don't believe it was for a couple reasons, even though I couldn't see the other dancers clearly. One is that I've seen Orphan Black an inordinate number of times, and if it was filmed then, it definitely never aired. There were so few sestra dance scenes...  Two, even Sarah never wore exposed thong panties like we saw on Jen. The style just didn't fit any of them. 

On a budget level, if we are going for the most budget friendly method, to buy footage from an entirety different production company doesn't make sense here, and I don't think they could film something like that. But, there is a small place in my head where Cosima is getting ready to fly to L.A....

[shapeshifter]

55 minutes ago, Ailianna said:

I checked that because I had the same thought. I really don't believe it was for a couple reasons, even though I couldn't see the other dancers clearly. One is that I've seen Orphan Black an inordinate number of times, and if it was filmed then, it definitely never aired. There were so few sestra dance scenes...  Two, even Sarah never wore exposed thong panties like we saw on Jen. The style just didn't fit any of them. 

On a budget level, if we are going for the most budget friendly method, to buy footage from an entirety different production company doesn't make sense here, and I don't think they could film something like that. But, there is a small place in my head where Cosima is getting ready to fly to L.A....

Thanks for checking and analyzing.

So, in my mind, if 3 of us all wondered the same thing, likely the intent was to do something that was reminiscent of an Orphan Black dance scene with the sestras,  perhaps to imply that in an alternate universe, She-Hulk *is* a sestra. 🙃   
ETA: YMMV, and/or maybe Tatiana Maslany is always dancing on set.

Edited October 15, 2022 by shapeshifter

[kay1864]

6 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

YMMV, and/or maybe Tatiana Maslany is always dancing on set

Well, she did have a different mixtape for every Orphan Black character, that she would play to get into character for each. 

[Danny Franks]

9 hours ago, Ailianna said:

I checked that because I had the same thought. I really don't believe it was for a couple reasons, even though I couldn't see the other dancers clearly. One is that I've seen Orphan Black an inordinate number of times, and if it was filmed then, it definitely never aired. There were so few sestra dance scenes...  Two, even Sarah never wore exposed thong panties like we saw on Jen. The style just didn't fit any of them. 

She looked like she was wearing Cosima's glasses and braided hair, but I don't think I can see Cosima dancing like Jen was dancing in that video or, as you point out, dressing like that. It wasn't really her speed:

8 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

She's a chilled, hippy-dippy dancer (though she is ill in this scene), which matches the energy the character had (and I love this scene, because it so effortlessly demonstrates how different the sestras were, and how well Tatiana realised them. Cosima is reserved and chill, Sarah is more confident and outgoing, Alison is prim and buttoned up but hiding a wilder side, and Helena is just crazy).

I could definitely see college-age Alison dancing like Jen does in the video, after a few drinks. But I did wonder whether it was some behind the scenes footage of Tatiana messing around during the filming of Orphan Black.

Edited October 15, 2022 by Danny Franks

[arc]

Jen in the "real world" was shown in 16:9 aspect ratio, while most of the rest of the show has been in 2.39:1. (I did notice the Savage She-Hulk opener was in 4:3, but 4:3 is more noticeable.)

This is in marked contrast to Wandavision where the inner Wandavision show world was in 4:3 or 16:9 while the real MCU world was 2.39:1. But of course the world where there's She-Hulk writers and a Marvel Studios is even more real than the MCU world.

[The Kings Foot]

The conclusion of She Hulk makes complete sense if you're a Hollywood writer whose big life changing moment was a two minute pitch to Kevin Feige. After which you got everything you wanted. Your enemies disappear, your romantic life improves and the paparazzi love you.

On the other hand it could also be interpreted as Jen asking a powerful "man" to make her life story easier for her so she doesn't have to do the messy stuff of actually fighting for herself. She can just skip to the happy ending. I figure someone realized this so Kevin Feige became K.E.V.I.N. to hide this.

Edited October 16, 2022 by The Kings Foot

[Quark]

I found this all quite mediocre.

[BaggythePanther]

I was watching Dan Murrell’s review of the finale and he made a point that though the episode made it a point to subvert the usual MCU tropes, it fell victim to the newest trope - the last minute villain reveal. I hadn’t thought about it but every Disney+ show (except I think Ms. Marvel) has had a surprise villain reveal in the finale. I suppose the episode was filmed before the pattern was noticeable. I really enjoyed the finale and I’m glad they waited until now to go this crazy with it.

[Guest]

4 hours ago, BaggythePanther said:

I was watching Dan Murrell’s review of the finale and he made a point that though the episode made it a point to subvert the usual MCU tropes, it fell victim to the newest trope - the last minute villain reveal. I hadn’t thought about it but every Disney+ show (except I think Ms. Marvel) has had a surprise villain reveal in the finale. I suppose the episode was filmed before the pattern was noticeable. I really enjoyed the finale and I’m glad they waited until now to go this crazy with it.

That‘s not a new trope for the MCU. It goes all the way back to Iron Man. Unless I am forgetting something, Moon Knight also didn’t have a last minute villain reveal. 

I really don’t think She-Hulk fell into that trap because it was clear that Todd was a villain all along. They waited until the end to reveal he was Hulk King but it wasn’t that surprising. His first appearance involved him treating She-Hulk like a science experiment. I saw a lot of spec that Nikki, Pug or Blonksy would be the surprise villain. Going that route would have been them falling victim to the trope. 

One thing that She-Hulk (and that review) has driven home for me is how much I want more diversity in reviewers. That’s not to criticize Dan Murrell or any other male reviewers. I watch and enjoy several but have also felt disconnected from much of what they are saying. 

[Ailianna]

The incels and their particular kind of villainy were shown much earlier. Most of the "last episode reveals" are more teasers for upcoming projects (US Agent and Yelena?, even Agatha, now, Kang, so on). Marvel has a long history of using the end of one project to tease the next one, and that's all I'm seeing as a pattern. None of these "last minute villains" is actually shown defeated at the end, after all.

Or what @Dani said while we were cross posting.

Edited October 16, 2022 by Ailianna

[rmontro]

I know I'm late talking about the final, but honestly I didn't love it.  Breaking the fourth wall was part of She-Hulk comics, so I'm cool with that, I just thought it was overdone in the last episode.  I also didn't like the K.E.V.I.N. robot, we all know it represented Kevin Feige, so if you're going to go there, have She-Hulk go talk to Feige.  An AI robot running the company seems a little too silly, for my taste anyway.

That said, I liked the series mostly.  I'm not thrilled with them pushing the casual sex on what they claim is a children's show (and taking pride in that combination in public statements - what is up with Disney these days?).  But I liked the light hearted feel of the series, the half hour length (really let the episodes breeze by), the fourth wall breaking, the focus (more or less) on it being a law show, Bruce's appearances, and their choice of characters that are deep cuts from Marvel comics (like Porcupine).

[shapeshifter]

24 minutes ago, rmontro said:

I'm not thrilled with them pushing the casual sex on what they claim is a children's show (and taking pride in that combination in public statements - what is up with Disney these days?).

I never thought this was a children’s show. 

• “…She-Hulk is rated TV-14 for sexual content, violence, and language which means some content may not be suitable for kids under 14…”. 
  https://lolalambchops.com/she-hulk-kid-friendly-parents-guide/

[rmontro]

22 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

I never thought this was a children’s show. 

I was referring to this interview with Kay Coiro from this article, titled "She-Hulk director wanted to make a sex-positive show that kids could also watch":

https://www.polygon.com/23408823/she-hulk-sex-scenes-kat-coiro-interview

[Guest]

4 hours ago, rmontro said:

I was referring to this interview with Kay Coiro from this article, titled "She-Hulk director wanted to make a sex-positive show that kids could also watch":

https://www.polygon.com/23408823/she-hulk-sex-scenes-kat-coiro-interview

I feel there is a difference between a show kids can watch (if their parents let them) and a children’s show. It is a kids show in the way Iron Man was a kids movie. This show handled sex better than Iron Man handled Tony’s one night stand and pole dancing flight attendants. 

[rmontro]

18 hours ago, Dani said:

It is a kids show in the way Iron Man was a kids movie. This show handled sex better than Iron Man handled Tony’s one night stand and pole dancing flight attendants. 

That's another example.  The only difference is that here, the director (and main star, apparently) seem to be bragging about it, as if they were providing some kind of service by exposing kids to casual sex.

[Ailianna]

Or exposing kids to the idea that sex is a normal part of adult life.

[Guest]

7 hours ago, rmontro said:

That's another example.  The only difference is that here, the director (and main star, apparently) seem to be bragging about it, as if they were providing some kind of service by exposing kids to casual sex.

I would say that this was done in a way that was respectful of female sexuality without being graphic while Iron Man treated them a sexual objects for men’s enjoyment and made jokes about taking them out like trash. I don’t consider She-Hulk to be appropriate for younger kids but that’s because of the serious real world parallels and not Jen’s sex life. 

I also read that interview very differently. They are taking pride in creating a show that presents female sexuality in a positive (non-graphic) light and a show that is fun for a wide variety of ages. 

Although I also don’t get the casual sex criticism of the show in general. The first guy was someone Jen wanted to continue to date. The second guy was someone she dated multiple times and wanted to continue to date. And Matt is someone she wants to and is continuing to date. Jen enjoys sex but she’s not casual about it. 

5 hours ago, Ailianna said:

Or exposing kids to the idea that sex is a normal part of adult life.

This! 

[Danny Franks]

If kids can watch Endgame, where Natasha Romanov commits suicide and Tony Stark dies a gruesome death, or Infinity War, where Spider-Man dissolves while begging for his life, I'd argue that they can watch a show where a woman talks about how much she enjoys sex.

And honestly, I'm just glad the MCU is letting its heroes act like real people sometimes, rather than weird, sexless action figures that just bang into each other, either violently or comedically.

Edited October 25, 2022 by Danny Franks

[Bruinsfan]

15 hours ago, Dani said:

Jen enjoys sex but she’s not casual about it. 

She's been pretty casual about it, having sex with Arthur after an abbreviated first date and with Matt before they'd dated at all. But the important thing is that there's nothing wrong with that, it's a perfectly valid way for Jen to choose to live her life.

[Guest]

3 hours ago, Bruinsfan said:

She's been pretty casual about it, having sex with Arthur after an abbreviated first date and with Matt before they'd dated at all. But the important thing is that there's nothing wrong with that, it's a perfectly valid way for Jen to choose to live her life.

I guess it depends what you consider casual sex. I view casual sex as being more about the attitude towards the relationship than how long anyone dates. I don’t see her sleeping with any of them casual because her attitude to the relationships wasn’t casual. I would say she has a healthy but not casual attitude towards sex*. For her there was an emotional component to all three relationships. 

To me Tony sleeping with the reporter and leaving Pepper to show her at the next morning or Quill sleeping with a women and forgetting she is on the ship while he stills the orb is casual sex. Jen waking up the next morning fully expecting and wanting to enjoy the morning together isn’t casual. 

*That’s not to say there is anything wrong with casual sex or that it isn’t also a healthy attitude toward sex

[Raja]

But while Tony was shown getting his fun it was portrayed as a character flaw. Especially in comparison to Steve Rogers, as the entire Infinity Saga did, where many made the argument that he probably died a virgin because he didn't marry Agent Carter during WWII 

[Danny Franks]

1 hour ago, Raja said:

But while Tony was shown getting his fun it was portrayed as a character flaw. Especially in comparison to Steve Rogers, as the entire Infinity Saga did, where many made the argument that he probably died a virgin because he didn't marry Agent Carter during WWII 

I didn't think it was the casual sex that was his character flaw, so much as his inability to have an adult relationship. The whole build up with Pepper was about him having to figure out how to actually be a reliable person, and how to not just cheat his way into her affections with gifts and compliments.

I'm also really happy that this show did away with Steve the Eternal Virgin, as though that was some kind of virtue that made him special. The puritanical attitude that too much modern culture (particularly American culture) has towards sex is tiresome. I'm glad a show was prepared to say, 'yeah, it's fun. Yeah, our heroine likes having sex and we're not going to say that she needs to be punished for it.'

That she was punished for having sex with Josh was indicative of the sort of toxic attitudes the incel-leaning, online males have towards sex.

[rmontro]

20 hours ago, Ailianna said:

Or exposing kids to the idea that sex is a normal part of adult life.

I don't expect anyone here to agree with me.  But I don't believe the increasing exposure to sex at an early age in our culture has been beneficial.   I would say rather the opposite. 

[Danny Franks]

19 hours ago, rmontro said:

I don't expect anyone here to agree with me.  But I don't believe the increasing exposure to sex at an early age in our culture has been beneficial.   I would say rather the opposite. 

This is getting off topic, but I'd say that failing to educate children properly about sex is the root of most problems relating to it.

Edited October 26, 2022 by Danny Franks

[Guest]

On 10/25/2022 at 2:53 PM, rmontro said:

I don't expect anyone here to agree with me.  But I don't believe the increasing exposure to sex at an early age in our culture has been beneficial.   I would say rather the opposite. 

I can’t say I disagree but I think there is a difference between introducing kids to the idea of sex and exposing kids to sex. I can’t see any children watching She-Hulk and having any understanding of what sex actually is. In my experience, unless it is explicit, kids are going to process adult things within a framework they already understand. 

I also doubt that any kids who picks on the sex are going to get the impressions that lots of casual sex is great. We see Jen run a gambit of emotions after her sexual encounters. 

[Perfect Xero]

Holy St. Elsewhere.

I'll just never be a fan of the whole, "Everything you the viewer has been spending time consuming on for the last X episodes/films is actually fake and none of it matters, get a life you dorks" in universe reveal.

Yes, it was always fake, but it being blatantly acknowledged as fake within the fiction itself just kills my ability to suspend disbelief and actually enjoy what I'm watching.

As it stands now within the fiction of the MCU there is one person, Jen, with actual agency and the ability to make choices, everyone else is just a construct doing what they're made to do by writers.

Matt isn't making a choice to stay in town or jump into bed. Todd the Incel wasn't making a choice to harass anyone online. Blonsky doesn't make a choice to turn himself in. Tony Stark didn't make a choice to die to stop Thanos. Thanos never made a choice to wipe out half the universe. Oh, Hulk has a son? Why should I care at this point?

Oh well.

[shapeshifter]

43 minutes ago, Perfect Xero said:

Holy St. Elsewhere.

I'll just never be a fan of the whole, "Everything you the viewer has been spending time consuming on for the last X episodes/films is actually fake and none of it matters, get a life you dorks" in universe reveal.

Yes, it was always fake, but it being blatantly acknowledged as fake within the fiction itself just kills my ability to suspend disbelief and actually enjoy what I'm watching.

As it stands now within the fiction of the MCU there is one person, Jen, with actual agency and the ability to make choices, everyone else is just a construct doing what they're made to do by writers.

Matt isn't making a choice to stay in town or jump into bed. Todd the Incel wasn't making a choice to harass anyone online. Blonsky doesn't make a choice to turn himself in. Tony Stark didn't make a choice to die to stop Thanos. Thanos never made a choice to wipe out half the universe. Oh, Hulk has a son? Why should I care at this point?

Oh well.

Welcome to how my brain translates every show. I used to really annoy my family with my questions and comments about shows when I was a kid. 

[arc]

54 minutes ago, Perfect Xero said:

As it stands now within the fiction of the MCU there is one person, Jen, with actual agency and the ability to make choices, everyone else is just a construct doing what they're made to do by writers.

There’s a weird tension in the whole meta-ness concept between Jen having writers (she met them!) and still having agency herself.

for what it’s worth, in the comics* Jen only broke the fourth wall in her own comic. If she guested in some other comic, she was just a regular superhero.

* ever since the John Byrne run decades ago, She-Hulk has been a very meta character in one or another, but it was only in his run that she would break the fourth wall. The Dan Slott run, they did other weird meta stuff like there being Marvel comics which were accurate histories of the MU and legally admissible evidence. But she didn’t look at/talk to the “camera”, or rip up pages to reveal the ads** beneath.

** American superhero comics used to have ads. Right in the middle of stories, even! 

[starri]

4 hours ago, arc said:

The Dan Slott run, they did other weird meta stuff like there being Marvel comics which were accurate histories of the MU and legally admissible evidence

While Slott did add the bit about the comics being legal documents because of their being published under the CCA, he didn't invent the idea that Marvel Comics were published in the Marvel Universe.

[Bruinsfan]

Yeah, I distinctly remember a story where Ben Grimm visited the Marvel Comics offices to complain about how they were adapting the Fantastic Four's real-life adventures into fictionalized accounts for public consumption. John Byrne even wrote himself (or rather the Marvel Universe version of himself who was currently adapting the FF comic) into one of the FF stories as a character.

Byrne was a proponent of meta winks well before he took a sledgehammer to the Fourth Wall in his She-Hulk series.

[ItCouldBeWorse]

https://thedirect.com/article/she-hulk-finale-man-scenes-photos