S01.E07: Driftmark

[Oscirus]

10 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Yeah, I feel like there's two issues there. Even we say 4 against 1 isn't fair, none of those kids were bullying Aemond. Bullying is when you (alone or with others) harass/target/make fun of the weaker victim(s). Those kids were all vulnerable and individually angered by the same kid, often stepping in when he'd tossed aside another one. After he throws them all off, he's standing over the one kid with a rock and specifically looks to the girls who tearfully shake their heads, begging him not to do it.

Of the five kids, it was Aemond who showed the instincts of a bully there and none of the other ones did. Of course, putting out someone's eye but not in a bullying way doesn't make it any less violent or bad, but there were different personalities/motivations playing out there.

They ambushed him 4 on 1 despite having multiple options of things to do if they disagreed about how he got the dragon (which was totally withing his rights btw), they also dogpiled him on the ground and would've still been on top of him if he didn't throw them off.  If you want to say he went too far afterwards, fine. Doesn't change the fact that those 4 went into that cave with the intention of jumping him (with a knife at that). Which doesn't the moral high ground high ground at all.

[Stardancer Supreme]

20 minutes ago, ZeeEnnui said:

Sure. But, I felt like the whole day that Aemond was the only one that could hear the pain in Vhagar's cries. That's what drew him to the dragon. Obviously, his desire for a dragon was a part of this, but I felt like it may have also been deeper than that. Also, what we learned an episode or two ago is that "the wand chooses the wizard" the dragon chooses the rider. Vhagar was Laena's, but he didn't belong to Rhaena. He chose Aemond. Vhagar could have also fried Aemond like fake Laenor in the fireplace. There are honestly no guarantees that he would have chosen Rhaena. For all we know he would have rejected her. Which would probably have been even more hurtful. Unlike LinkedIn, I don't believe that there is a criteria list for dragons choosing their rider. 

Here was what didn't work for me. The rapid bonding between Rhaenyra and Laena's kids. They don't know each other at all. You don't suddenly become insta-family after meeting at the most awkward funeral ever. 

In the ten years we didn't see, Rhaenyra and Laena most likely kept their close relationship through the birth of their first 2 children.  They were both pregnant at the beginning of the time jump episode; Laena told the Essos prince that their family was traveling.  Rhaenyra gives birth to Joffrey and Laena dies trying to give birth to her third child.  It's not too strange for the Targaryen and Velaryon cousins to spend enough time together to be tight with each other as opposed to Aegon, Helaena, and Aemond.

[sistermagpie]

13 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

They ambushed him 4 on 1 despite having multiple options of things to do if they disagreed about how he got the dragon (which was totally withing his rights btw), they also dogpiled him on the ground and would've still been on top of him if he didn't throw them off.  If you want to say he went too far afterwards, fine. Doesn't change the fact that those 4 went into that cave with the intention of jumping him (with a knife at that). Which doesn't the moral high ground high ground at all.

I wasn't talking about the moral high ground particularly, but nobody went into the cave intending to ambush him and jump him, that's like some totally different show. If that was their plan they would have, you know, ambushed him and jumped on him. They jumped on him in a rage after throwing themselves at him one by one and getting punched out. And one of them had a knife because he apparently carries a knife which he pulled out in response to Aemond taunting them about their father. This wasn't a planned physical attack on anyone's part. I said Aemond was the one who showed the instincts of a bully in the scene because he did and they didn't.

Edited October 4, 2022 by sistermagpie

[Oscirus]

3 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

I wasn't talking about the moral high ground particularly, but nobody went into the cave intending to ambush him and jump him, that's like some totally different show. If that was their plan they would have, you know, ambushed him and jumped on him. They jumped on him in a rage after throwing themselves at him one by one and getting punched out. And one of them had a knife because he apparently carries a knife which he pulled out in response to Aemond taunting them about their father. This wasn't a planned physical attack on anyone's part. I said Aemond was the one who showed the instincts of a bully in the scene because he did and they didn't.

If they were there to confront him and nothing else, why did they need four people to do that? From the way they attacked him, they clearly weren't scared of him. The twins were more than capable of chewing him out without their cousin's backup.

[snickers]

22 hours ago, Dac22 said:

Daemon literally did show up in the Vale with sinister intentions towards his wife and would have taken advantage of Rhaenyra if she wasn't getting pleasure out of it according to the director.

Okay....good thing this show is a work of fiction because I cannot believe I'm defending what is illegal in this day and age but....he already crossed the line and took advantage the minute he took her hat off in that brothel, he wanted people to see that so she would be "runined"

But...if he had done the deed so to speak, as wrong as it would have been....if Rhea had married him and had his children, she wouldn't be the position she is now, her claim would be pretty strong and no one would be calling those kids bastards....and no way Otto would be back as Hand

22 hours ago, Dac22 said:

So giving someone a choice is a terrible thing now?

What was terrible was how Cole turned on her after she turned him down....for someone he "supposedly" loved....you don't do that to someone you love, even Daemon did the right thing in the end....that shows more love than what Cole has ever done.

22 hours ago, Dac22 said:

Which they absolutely are and Daemon would be doing the same thing if it was Alicent's kids.

I feel bad for the kids, but Rhaenyra and Harwin are the ones to do this to them. Don't want your kids to be called bastards, then don't have bastards. The world sucks, yes, but they know that. Pretty simple.

Daemon gets pleasure out of everyone's misery I think....but as of yet, we have not seen him stoop so low as to do the things Cole has done to kids

As for the whole....don't want to have your kids be bastards, don't have bastards....well....she's got to produce heirs....like others have said, funny how her father's kids all came out with the white hair but not hers, AND, the men can have 100 bastards and no one blinks an eye

23 hours ago, Dac22 said:

I simply don't think acknowledging a character's warts and awful deeds is admitting the character is awful. Jaime Lannister is my favorite character in fiction, but I never understand why people dismiss/overlook all the horrible things because that's part of why the character was great. 

Jamie Lannister had something called character growth, Cole/Alicent are declining as the episodes go on (and we are only in season 1)!

[sistermagpie]

3 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

If they were there to confront him and nothing else, why did they need four people to do that? From the way they attacked him, they clearly weren't scared of him. The twins were more than capable of chewing him out without their cousin's backup.

I dont know why you'd suggest the only reason four pre-teen cousins would want to alert each other/come along and see what's up is because they need back up to physically attack some unknown person. I didn't say they were scared of him. 

The fact is they did start out chewing him out--or one of them did. Nobody planned any physical attacking in this scene.

[ZeeEnnui]

19 minutes ago, Stardancer Supreme said:

In the ten years we didn't see, Rhaenyra and Laena most likely kept their close relationship through the birth of their first 2 children.  They were both pregnant at the beginning of the time jump episode; Laena told the Essos prince that their family was traveling.  Rhaenyra gives birth to Joffrey and Laena dies trying to give birth to her third child.  It's not too strange for the Targaryen and Velaryon cousins to spend enough time together to be tight with each other as opposed to Aegon, Helaena, and Aemond.

Possibly, but Laena and Daemon were living in Pentos. Laena wanted to return home while Daemon wanted to stay basically living their best exile life. It seemed like Laena was feeling very isolated. In the conversation on the beach, it sounded like Rhaenyra and Daemon hadn't talked in a long while. She asked about his marriage to Laena. If they were in touch then, Rhaenyra would have some idea of the marriage between her uncle and cousin. I always got the sense that while Rhaenyra, Laenor and Laena grew up together, they weren't tight as they grew older (because of the bad blood during the Stepstones). It didn't help that when we first met Laena she was a literal child which is why we got collectively squicked out when Corlys was trying to make a match with her and Viserys (shudder). But you could be right, part of this is the fault of the show where there have been certain plot points throughout the season that felt like they happened offscreen so we as viewers are left filling in the blanks, which is already made hard enough thanks to pitch black lighting favored by their cinematographer. 

[Roseanna]

6 hours ago, The Kings Foot said:

Aemond's  plot so far is clearly meant to mimic a hero's journey though without the goodness that makes a hero. 

Goodness makes a hero? Was Odysseus good? No, he was cunning and that's why he found a way to conquer Troy and survived home after the years. Was Jacob who stole his brother's birthright good? No, God just chose him.   

8 hours ago, jeansheridan said:

History is told by the winners. 

Very true!

Edited October 4, 2022 by Roseanna
changing the wrong name

[Roseanna]

12 hours ago, absnow54 said:

Yeah, Rhaenyra is pretty spoiled and has basically gotten everything she's ever wanted, but so far, her "bucking" against the system has mostly been against misogynistic ideas. Like a man can legitimize his bastards, so who cares who fathered Rhaenyra's children so long as she declares them her heir.  

I don't think Rhaenyra fights against "misogynist ideas" but that, as a Princess, she feels entitled to eat her cake and have it. And so far, the show has let us imagine it's possible by making Viserys to not act, unlike any father or king in this situation should.

But there isn't a world where one's deeds has no consequences. Ultimately, the fight between Aemond and others was due Rhaenyra's betrayal of honor (a value that holds this kind of society together) by presenting her bastards as legitimate.     

[CeeBeeGee]

23 hours ago, Televisioned said:

Alicent is comparing herself to a blood princess.  That’s the flaw in all this.  She married in, so she had to make sacrifices to get her prize, which is being Queen. It’s not a comparable situation to a blood princess.  And I seem to recall Alicent was already being snide about her Aegon not automatically being named heir, even before Viserys reaffirmed Rhaeneyra’s position.  Honestly this episode seemed jump the shark-ish.  How is Viserys letting Alicent roam free after she attacked the crown princess (his heir) and also tried to pull rank by insisting the Kingsguard is sworn to her…. 

Right?! Like, climb a ladder, Alicent, and get the fuck OVER yourself. You're not a princess of the blood. The Kingsguard protects THE KING (it's in the name) and his family and is not your private assassins guild. (God, that was tacky.) For you to wield a knife against one of Rhaenyra's sons--Viserys should've had her hanged for that.

13 hours ago, cardigirl said:

I'm not really a fan of Alicent's boys, but when Aemond conquered his fear and went after a dragon of his own, I was rooting for him. What a wonderful scene. He knew he was either going to win the dragon over, or get toasted. 

I was able to enjoy a whole five minutes of "Hey, this kid seems pretty cool, he conquered his fears and rode a dragon--shit, now he's just another shitty bully like his brother."

[Roseanna]

On 10/3/2022 at 8:53 AM, Televisioned said:

Alicent is comparing herself to a blood princess.  That’s the flaw in all this.  She married in, so she had to make sacrifices to get her prize, which is being Queen. It’s not a comparable situation to a blood princess.  

That's not true. Princesses were taught to put duty, i.e. their family and country's interests first, like being married to an unknown man, king or prince, in the foreign country. They didn't even expect to be "happy" but that their husband respected them in public. And if they played their role rightly, they could get power.

Now, Rhaenyra is of course an heir to the throne, but that doesn't give a right to behave in such a manner that is regarded dishonorable in that kind of society.         

[RobertDeSneero]

I feel like Daemon is the kind of guy who would let Rhaenyra plan this sort of ending for Laenor because it would make her happy, then secretly fly to Essos to kill Laenor to tie up loose ends.

[Cool Breeze]

I think the point is that Alicent oversteps.  Madly.  Sassing the king at the council meetings and just generally behaving as a Queen instead of a Queen Consort.  
 

You have no bloodline of any import, Alicent, at least not compared to Rhaenyra or your husband.  No status flows directly from you.  Only from your husband.  Comparing yourself to a Princess of the blood, the heir to the throne, no less, will drive you mad.  But you seem to be there already.  

[Roseanna]

19 hours ago, LadyChaos said:

Rhaenyra also has a father who loves her, wants to see her happy, and sees the hypocrisy of how women are treated so he (IMO) doesn't actually care that Rhaenyra might be having sex with a man that is not her husband........whereas Alicent had a father who only cared about her as much as he could use her, and I think the strain of being used and doing her duty is making her crack.

ETA: I also think that Viserys is no fool, there is no way he doesn't know Laenor is gay, and likely he knew it before the marriage was arranged. I'm kind of, of the mind that it may have been one of the reasons why he was keen on the match. I think he hoped that Laenor wouldn't care if Rhaenrya gave birth to a kid that didn't look like him.....though, honestly I think Viserys was worried the kid might look a little too much like a Targaryen....

If a king put his love for her daughter above his country's good, he is not fit to be a king. 

   

[Roseanna]

7 minutes ago, Cool Breeze said:

I think the point is that Alicent oversteps.  Madly.  Sassing the king at the council meetings and just generally behaving as a Queen instead of a Queen Consort.  
 

You have no bloodline of any import, Alicent, at least not compared to Rhaenyra or your husband.  No status flows directly from you.  Only from your husband.  Comparing yourself to a Princess of the blood, the heir to the throne, no less, will drive you mad.  But you seem to be there already.  

It's true that Alicent should have acted only in private, not in public. 

However, the crux of the matter is that Rhaenyra's bastards have no right to the crown that, after her reign, should belong to her step-brothers, the king's sons by Alicent. No mother worth is salt could accept that her children's inheritance is stolen.    

[PurpleTentacle]

12 hours ago, The Kings Foot said:

Or her father the King said  King Consort because he still assumes the husband has precedence, while she decided she wants to take precedence and so deliberately said Prince Consort to Daemon.

Or the writers just made a mistake and are changing it. How else would it be that Deamon didn't even ask "oh it's prince consort now? That's new."

[steelyis]

16 hours ago, AntFTW said:

Sometimes...

You need to leave!

[Roseanna]

1 hour ago, Cool Breeze said:

behaving as a Queen instead of a Queen Consort.  

There has been Queen Consorts of different kind as well as Queens.

Mary Queen of Scots first lost her reputation, then her crown and finally her head. Instead, Elizabeth I, although she loved Robert Dudley, never let her heart win over her head.

Actually, I would like Rhyanara better if she had acted out of love but so far her motive seems only to be "I do as like", never caring consequences. Her troubles are her own making: she had years to chose a suitable husband but instead wasted time moping, and if her children were legitimate, she had nothing to worry about. It's even likely that her relationship with Alicent would be better or at least she would have accepted the marriage between their children.

Now at least she did the first *sensible* thing in her life by marrying Daemon and thus getting a strong and cunning ally at the top of a lover. 

Edited October 4, 2022 by Roseanna
changing a letter

[Avabelle]

30 minutes ago, Roseanna said:

t's even likely that her relationship with Alicent would be better or at least she would have accepted the marriage between their children.

I agree with most of your points bar this one. My own opinion having watched Alicent - there is nothing Rhaenyra could have done to keep her on side. Her hatred and anger stems from her father offering her as a babymaker to Vicerys and Vicerys for accepting her as that. Instead of calling either men out she had instead misplaced this anger and blamed everything on Rhaenyra. Using Rhaenyra’s apparent selfishness at doing what she pleases as away to justify the (irrational) anger and hatred. No matter what Rhaenyra had done Alicent was going to end up hating her regardless. 

Edited October 4, 2022 by Avabelle

[The Kings Foot]

46 minutes ago, Avabelle said:

I agree with most of your points bar this one. My own opinion having watched Alicent - there is nothing Rhaenyra could have done to keep her on side. Her hatred and anger stems from her father offering her as a babymaker to Vicerys and Vicerys for accepting her as that. Instead of calling either men out she had instead misplaced this anger and blamed everything on Rhaenyra. Using Rhaenyra’s apparent selfishness at doing what she pleases as away to justify the (irrational) anger and hatred. No matter what Rhaenyra had done Alicent was going to end up hating her regardless. 

Misery wants company.

[Meredith Quill]

8 hours ago, Lady S. said:

Speaking of which, let's add this to Rhaenyra's sins: she sent her boys to bed before it was full dark.

Did they hear the lawnmower I wonder?

2 hours ago, Roseanna said:

<snip>

after her reign, should belong to her step-brothers, the king's sons by Alicent. 

Nail meet head. (They're her half-brothers btw).

But that isn't what Alicent wants though is it. She wants to usurp Rhaenyra, not just her sons, in favour of Aegon.

Otherwise, none of this would currently matter. It would only become a pressing issue once Rhaenyra died regarding who is next in line after her.

[cambridgeguy]

1 hour ago, Roseanna said:

Now at least she did the first *sensible* thing in her life by marrying Daemon and thus getting a strong and cunning ally at the top of a lover. 

That depends on how the realm views Daemon.  Do most of the high lords share Otto's opinion of him being a psycho who would ruin the realm, or is he the strong, decisive warrior who took out the Crabfeeder while Viserys dithered?  If it's the former then she'll lose support from anyone who's on the fence that will outweigh whatever she gains from Daemon, unless he's the reason the Velaryons decide to join her.

[Cristofle]

44 minutes ago, cambridgeguy said:

That depends on how the realm views Daemon.  Do most of the high lords share Otto's opinion of him being a psycho who would ruin the realm, or is he the strong, decisive warrior who took out the Crabfeeder while Viserys dithered?  If it's the former then she'll lose support from anyone who's on the fence that will outweigh whatever she gains from Daemon, unless he's the reason the Velaryons decide to join her.

I think Daemon is controversial in terms of the high lords. Some people share Corlys' view of him while others share Otto's. However, I have gotten the impression that Daemon may be popular and respected among the "small folk", given the loyalty he inspired in the City Watch. And that is important, as Daemon keeps telling Rhaenyra, lol. 

Still, he is undeniably a more powerful and formidable figure than Laenor was. 

[Avabelle]

Does Daemon love Rhaenyra? I believe shes in love with him but his actions are so.. vague. I definitely think he loves her as a Family member/niece (eugh) but as to whether he’s in love with her? His motives aren’t clear at all he just seems to go with the flow. Any love I thought he had for his wife or his daughters is gone now post funeral/wedding,

[UnoAgain]

34 minutes ago, Cristofle said:

I think Daemon is controversial in terms of the high lords. Some people share Corlys' view of him while others share Otto's. However, I have gotten the impression that Daemon may be popular and respected among the "small folk", given the loyalty he inspired in the City Watch. And that is important, as Daemon keeps telling Rhaenyra, lol. 

Still, he is undeniably a more powerful and formidable figure than Laenor was. 

Is he really... For all this talk about being a targaryen tale... Who has daemon's back?  I've only met Visy, Dae, Rhae... The velaryons are the richest fam.. With their own army and dragons... Daemon is generally unpredictable ...ive only seen him in battle once and he was being helped by young Laenor there as well... Now I know the source said Laenor has to be gone... But this idea that Dae is a stronger support system doesn't really add up... I'd take house Velaryon over 1 daemon

[Jack Shaftoe]

7 hours ago, CeeBeeGee said:

The Kingsguard protects THE KING (it's in the name) and his family and is not your private assassins guild. (God, that was tacky.) For you to wield a knife against one of Rhaenyra's sons--Viserys should've had her hanged for that.

Alicent not even getting a slap on the wrist for trying to stab the heir to the throne and said heir just accepting that with nary a protest should lead to lots of people deciding that Rhaenyra's faction is weak. But since the world barely exists outside the king's court in this show, I suspect nothing of the sort will happen. Hell, Daemon is from Rhaenyra's faction now and he didn't seem to care about the stabbing either. Raising a hand against a prince(ss) is a crime that was treated with deadly seriousness in pretty much every monarchical society in history. Here, Alicent even claims that Viserys' favour will forever rest with Rhaenyra after the whole stabbing thing - even though he cut her far more slack than he did for Rhaenyra. And Otto, the supposedly savvy politician, is proud of his daughter's extreme stupidity.

How am I supposed to take the political intrigues in this show seriously when stuff like this happens all the time? If the protagonists can get away with anything depending on the current needs of the plots, there is really not much suspense or drama because pretty much anything can happen without rhyme or reason. And that would be perfectly fine in a more lighthearted show but this show clearly takes itself very seriously indeed. Yet it follows the good old tradition of D&D - "Creatively it made sense for us because we wanted it to happen". So a shocking twist follows a shocking twist. It's easy to write such twists if the motivations of the characters drastically change whenever you need them to.

Edited October 4, 2022 by Jack Shaftoe

[Cristofle]

5 minutes ago, UnoAgain said:

Is he really... For all this talk about being a targaryen tale... Who has daemon's back?  I've only met Visy, Dae, Rhae... The velaryons are the richest fam.. With their own army and dragons... Daemon is generally unpredictable ...ive only seen him in battle once and he was being helped by young Laenor there as well... Now I know the source said Laenor has to be gone... But this idea that Dae is a stronger support system doesn't really add up... I'd take house Velaryon over 1 daemon

Well, the Velaryons have often been allies of Daemon - Corlys was generally his loudest supporter when he was on the King's Council and they have fought in the Step Stones together. It's possible that could shift if Corlys takes whispers about Laenor's death seriously, but it hasn't happened yet. Corlys refused to blame Daemon for Laena's death in this episode. 

I thought Laenor was a smart political move when Rhaenyra first got engaged, and I still think he was back then. But the support of House Velaryon, which Rhaenyra will not necessarily lose with Daemon, is currently at odds with the ways in which Laenor in particular has turned out to be a hindrance in political terms. Rhaenyra was clear in this episode, including to Laenor's face, that she wanted to have children with him and tried to have children with him and worked hard to "keep up the farce", but Laenor was unable to reciprocate. That has left her claim particularly vulnerable because her children are believed to be bastards. To the point where Laenor's own mother will not even look at the children or acknowledge them in any way. Also, Laenor has turned into such an open joke that Alicent was fine insulting him to Corlys' face. I don't think Laenor is a good political match anymore, and I don't think there was any way to turn the ship around, so to speak - the problems are too public and too numerous. 

So Daemon is controversial but not weak. Laenor comes from a powerful family and is much less controversial on the surface, but is weak himself, which has led to its own controversy. They both have pros and cons, but I can see how Rhaenyra prefers to have a strong partner in and of himself at this point, after ten years trying to keep it up with Laenor, seemingly without much help from him. Of course, that could shift right back the first time Daemon goes...Full Daemon, lol. Daemon is not an easy bargain, he's too unpredictable, but he's also better as an ally than an enemy, I think. 

44 minutes ago, Avabelle said:

Does Daemon love Rhaenyra? I believe shes in love with him but his actions are so.. vague.

Hard to say. He does not only view her as a pathway to power, that is obvious. He has genuine feelings for her that go beyond that, and sometimes even clash with his desire for power. He implied in this episode, and there was no indication he was lying, that he has suffered these past ten years without Rhaenyra. Is he IN LOVE with her? I'm honestly not sure. What does it even mean to be loved by Daemon? Would that protect Rhaenyra from his worse instincts? Quite possibly not. 

[absnow54]

20 minutes ago, Avabelle said:

Does Daemon love Rhaenyra? I believe shes in love with him but his actions are so.. vague. I definitely think he loves her as a Family member/niece (eugh) but as to whether he’s in love with her? His motives aren’t clear at all he just seems to go with the flow. Any love I thought he had for his wife or his daughters is gone now post funeral/wedding,

I actually see it the other way around. I think Daemon has always been in love with Rhaenyra, and even Laena pointed out in the last episode that he had never fully committed to their marriage, because he was in love with someone else. What isn't clear to me is whether Rhaenyra actually loves him. She's clearly attracted to him, but I think her intentions are more rooted in securing the crown by any means necessary, and I think she's most interested in his willingness to do the dirty work for her. 

[Cristofle]

13 minutes ago, absnow54 said:

She's clearly attracted to him, but I think her intentions are more rooted in securing the crown by any means necessary, and I think she's most interested in his willingness to do the dirty work for her. 

This I don't agree with. I see the way Rhaenyra watches him, as if there is no one else around but him, and she's done this across both actresses. It's not a power thing or even simply attraction - it comes off more like obsession. Even in the pilot, when she had no thought of being the heir, she was visibly pleased and excited he was back and that he'd elected to reach out to her first. She obviously cherishes the necklace he gave her. She clearly felt genuinely abandoned by him and like her life has been miserable without him. She's also more honest with him than she is with almost anyone else. I never saw anything close to that level of attachment in her interactions with Criston or her admittedly brief interactions with Harwin. I think if Daemon HAD chosen to go off with her to Dragonstone and make her his wife, she never would have looked twice at either man. 

Given how volatile they both can be, I think it is actually the depth of their connection to each other that may be their undoing. I think it would be safer if they thought of each other as good political matches and fun sex buddies, but I don't think it's nearly that clear-cut, especially on Rhaenyra's side. 

[DigitalCount]

18 minutes ago, Cristofle said:

This I don't agree with. I see the way Rhaenyra watches him, as if there is no one else around but him, and she's done this across both actresses. It's not a power thing or even simply attraction - it comes off more like obsession. Even in the pilot, when she had no thought of being the heir, she was visibly pleased and excited he was back and that he'd elected to reach out to her first. She obviously cherishes the necklace he gave her. She clearly felt genuinely abandoned by him and like her life has been miserable without him. She's also more honest with him than she is with almost anyone else. I never saw anything close to that level of attachment in her interactions with Criston or her admittedly brief interactions with Harwin. I think if Daemon HAD chosen to go off with her to Dragonstone and make her his wife, she never would have looked twice at either man. 

Given how volatile they both can be, I think it is actually the depth of their connection to each other that may be their undoing. I think it would be safer if they thought of each other as good political matches and fun sex buddies, but I don't think it's nearly that clear-cut, especially on Rhaenyra's side. 

It's seeming more and more like Rhaenyra's words at the wedding feast were completely genuine--I had thought she was sort of teasing or flirting with him, but she would absolutely have just run off then and there, and she was really just looking for him to say the word.

I've also picked up on what you saw about Daemon being the only thing she sees when he's around, and it was really telling to hear her account of how she felt being away from him had contributed to everything that had gone wrong in her life. Honestly, one could argue that the opposite is true; Daemon put it in her head that they were special and didn't have to follow any rules, and she has lived by that advice to the point of ruin. 

[CountryGirl]

On 10/2/2022 at 10:41 PM, Lady Whistleup said:

Alicent really is the Westeros Karen. She makes me miss Cersei, who never felt sorry for herself.

Cersei would drink some wine and get on with life.

Also, for all her BSC over Aemond's eye, she doesn't seem to give a shit about her kids and the fact that all three are creepy as hell. Say what you want about Cersei, but she adored her kids, even shitty Joffrey.

[Cristofle]

1 hour ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

Alicent not even getting a slap on the wrist for trying to stab the heir to the throne and said heir just accepting that with nary a protest should lead to lots of people deciding that Rhaenyra's faction is weak. But since the world barely exists outside the king's court in this show, I suspect nothing of the sort will happen.

I was also thinking about this in relation to my relative lack of sympathy for Alicent. She seems so enraged and infuriated by the power she feels she deserves but doesn't have (such as complete sway over Viserys including where Rhaenyra is concerned, or Criston openly defying the king in her name) that she seems to be completely missing what she's getting away with because Viserys is so relatively weak. Alicent challenged and humiliated him in front of everyone. She stole his dagger FROM him. She attacked and ultimately slashed his daughter and heir. Whatever Aemond said about getting the dirt from Aegon, it was obvious it was coming from Alicent and Viserys realized it in that moment. She's been repeatedly, blatantly defying him. Imagine if this had been Robert. Robert hit Cersei for defying him and mocking him in front of ONE person. Which was not good, to be clear, but it has often been the personality of many Westerosi kings. Robert probably would have killed Alicent. The Mad King would have set her on fire. 

[Constantinople]

8 hours ago, CeeBeeGee said:

I was able to enjoy a whole five minutes of "Hey, this kid seems pretty cool, he conquered his fears and rode a dragon--shit, now he's just another shitty bully like his brother."

Truly amazing how the 1 kid is confronted, insulted and attacked by 4 other kids yet the 1 kid is the bully.

[magdalene]

21 minutes ago, DigitalCount said:

t's seeming more and more like Rhaenyra's words at the wedding feast were completely genuine--I had thought she was sort of teasing or flirting with him, but she would absolutely have just run off then and there, and she was really just looking for him to say the word.

Yes. When I watched this scene initially I thought, "don't tease him like this, he may just take you". After watching this episode it sure looks like this is exactly what she wanted.

[Cristofle]

3 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

Truly amazing how the 1 kid is confronted, insulted and attacked by 4 other kids yet the 1 kid is the bully.

You can be one person in front of four people and still behave like a bully. Aemond's sneering, mocking crack about Rhaena riding a pig (the bullying HE was subjected to in the previous episode and was so furious about, highlighting how sometimes the bullied become bullies themselves - he took the insult his brother inflicted on him and turned it around on a younger girl), threatening to feed them to his dragon, mocking the boys for being bastards, was bullying behavior no matter how many of them there were. He could have REALIZED he was one versus four and not behaved like a spoiled, superior little shit and just taken Rhaena being upset about him taking Vhagar, and I'd have had more sympathy for his plight. 

[Cindylou]

On 10/3/2022 at 12:09 AM, aghst said:

Even female dragons prefer assholes?

THIS is the funniest thing i have read all day, THANK YOU!!! lol

[aghst]

Maybe if they keep doing dark scenes, hair color will actually mean something else.

Jace and Luke will be ninjas, the blonds will be sitting ducks.

[Oscirus]

31 minutes ago, Cristofle said:

You can be one person in front of four people and still behave like a bully. Aemond's sneering, mocking crack about Rhaena riding a pig (the bullying HE was subjected to in the previous episode and was so furious about, highlighting how sometimes the bullied become bullies themselves - he took the insult his brother inflicted on him and turned it around on a younger girl), threatening to feed them to his dragon, mocking the boys for being bastards, was bullying behavior no matter how many of them there were. He could have REALIZED he was one versus four and not behaved like a spoiled, superior little shit and just taken Rhaena being upset about him taking Vhagar, and I'd have had more sympathy for his plight. 

Or maybe have the 4 kids not cofront him 4 on 1 or even attack him for words.  In what world is it ok to attack someone cuz they insult you? 

What kind of entitlement does one have to have to call dibs on a dragon when thats never been done before in the history of westoros?

But sure team black is doing that behavior so the other guys in the wrong despite being provoked every step of the way

[CountryGirl]

The moment that really clinched my love for this show, much as I have felt some storylines have been rushed (hello, Harwin and Rhae's romance) was when Alicent attacked Rhae and the subtle, yet palpable drawing of battles lines between Alicent's side (with her sons and daughter, and Criston) and Rhae's side with her children and Daemon. No dialogue but just that little shift in movement. 

[UnoAgain]

1 hour ago, Constantinople said:

Truly amazing how the 1 kid is confronted, insulted and attacked by 4 other kids yet the 1 kid is the bully.

Bullies don't always win fights... Homeboy got off vhagar with an extra 40 pounds of testosterone ...and immediately threw what he had done and what he himself was subjected to.. At a girl who just laid her mother to rest earlier in the epi

24 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

Or maybe have the 4 kids not cofront him 4 on 1 or even attack him for words.  In what world is it ok to attack someone cuz they insult you? 

What kind of entitlement does one have to have to call dibs on a dragon when thats never been done before in the history of westoros?

But sure team black is doing that behavior so the other guys in the wrong despite being provoked every step of the way

Pointing out your cousins mother is dead... Threatening to feed her to her mothers dragon and burn his nephews alive like their father*( both of em) isn't an insult.. Those are fighting words.. Words he wasn't saying in front of aegon when he got the pig.. Words he feels he can say now cuz he has a dragon... He felt big.. Popped shit.. Got sliced up... Sucks.. But he seems fine as he got vhagar

[proserpina65]

Now that's more like it!  Unhinged Alicent, selfish Rhaenyra, sly, cunning Daemon and Vhagar deciding who she wants as a rider.  Plus Laenor gets a happy-ish ending.  The only really bad thing is Rhaenys being forced to think that both her children are dead; I really felt for her when they found "Laenor's" body.  Oh, and it was terrible that some poor nobody had to die so that Rhaenyra could get what she wanted.  That sucked.

[sistermagpie]

6 hours ago, Roseanna said:

It's true that Alicent should have acted only in private, not in public. 

However, the crux of the matter is that Rhaenyra's bastards have no right to the crown that, after her reign, should belong to her step-brothers, the king's sons by Alicent. No mother worth is salt could accept that her children's inheritance is stolen.    

I don't know if that's always true, though. Yes, those are supposed to be the rules, but I'm sure they're not the only bastards to have slipped in--sometimes they don't even have to slip in, historically. People support bastards when they want to. As their not-grandfather said, people remember names. The kids are as much Targ blood as hers are. She tried to get pregnant by her husband and couldn't, so produced heirs the way she could. Alicent isn't angry because she really cares about blood, but because Rhaenyra's getting away with something AGAIN.

59 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

Truly amazing how the 1 kid is confronted, insulted and attacked by 4 other kids yet the 1 kid is the bully.

52 minutes ago, Cristofle said:

You can be one person in front of four people and still behave like a bully. Aemond's sneering, mocking crack about Rhaena riding a pig (the bullying HE was subjected to in the previous episode and was so furious about, highlighting how sometimes the bullied become bullies themselves - he took the insult his brother inflicted on him and turned it around on a younger girl), threatening to feed them to his dragon, mocking the boys for being bastards, was bullying behavior no matter how many of them there were. He could have REALIZED he was one versus four and not behaved like a spoiled, superior little shit and just taken Rhaena being upset about him taking Vhagar, and I'd have had more sympathy for his plight. 

Exactly. It's perfectly right to shame the four kids for all jumping on him at once, even if they were still outmatched. But Aemond was the bully in the situation because of the way he reacts and acts when he gets power. The boys got in an unlucky blow with the knife working together. Aemond scored far more hits intentionally than they did. And I'm not talking about physically hitting them, which he did in response to getting hit, but targeting every kid in an emotional weak spot. Being accused of "stealing" the dragon was not an insult any more than Alicent saying Rhaenyra gets away with everything is an insult. It's the helpless wail of someone powerless to do anything about it.

16 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

Or maybe have the 4 kids not cofront him 4 on 1 or even attack him for words.  In what world is it ok to attack someone cuz they insult you? 

What kind of entitlement does one have to have to call dibs on a dragon when thats never been done before in the history of westoros?

But sure team black is doing that behavior so the other guys in the wrong despite being provoked every step of the way

Until the shot with the knife Aemond's words were more hurtful than the blows he received or gave back. Of course nobody was entitled to the dragon just because his mother was the former rider. Aemond's inability to take the win graciously (and instead turn words that humiliated him on someone else) just says something about his character, especially as a would-be ruler. 

[Oscirus]

1 minute ago, sistermagpie said:

Until the shot with the knife Aemond's words were more hurtful than the blows he received or gave back. Of course nobody was entitled to the dragon just because his mother was the former rider. Aemond's inability to take the win graciously (and instead turn words that humiliated him on someone else) just says something about his character, especially as a would-be ruler. 

Admittedly Aemond got that second son energy that's present in daemon larys and probably even corlys's little brother. Not sure what it is in the water that makes them so cruel but apparently thats a thing in this world. 

[proserpina65]

On 10/2/2022 at 10:06 PM, Lady Whistleup said:

Was the screen so dark as to be inscrutable for much of the beach/dragon scene?

I had no problem seeing everything during those scenes.  Hallelujah for archaic CRT tv technology.

On 10/2/2022 at 10:14 PM, bluvelvet said:

I think Aemond is going to be a better warrior than his brother, took guts to claim Vhagar even though I feel that dragon should've gone to one of Laena's daughters.

Adult dragons go to whomever they want to go to.  One does not inherit them from their previous riders.  If Baela wanted to claim Vhagar, she should've done it.

On 10/2/2022 at 10:32 PM, SilverStormm said:

As Laenor has claimed them as his own then his uncle ought to do likewise, just like Corlys has. I don't see it being much different from him adopting them - in essence.

Vaemond knows they're bastards and he's not going to pretend otherwise.  While I think it's unwise of him, I applaud it.  Someone needs to pound it into Viserys' head.

On 10/2/2022 at 10:47 PM, Oscirus said:

Whats to stop a pissed off rhaenyra from offing her step children and in laws to keep that secret and inheritance for her kids if they did decide to deny them?

Once her father's dead, nothing.  I fully expect them all to be trying to off each other the moment Viserys drops dead.

On 10/2/2022 at 10:58 PM, Scarlett45 said:

I understand Alicent being mad her son lost an EYE, but HE started it the little shit. He escalated it, and HE picked up a rock. You can’t start fights and then be upset when you get injured. 

He didn't start it.  The others did.  He did, however, escalate it to the point of serious injury.  Either way, yeah, Alicent's demand was unhinged.

On 10/2/2022 at 11:02 PM, The Hound Lives said:

I know this is probably an unpopular opinion but Matt and Emma have zero chemistry. They are both playing their parts, eh, okay but I don’t feel this powerful, bout-to-fuck-shit-up, pairing. They’re just flat.

True.  Of course he had no chemistry with Milly Alcock either.

On 10/2/2022 at 11:03 PM, FnkyChkn34 said:

Aemond did start it, by stealing a dragon.  How are they not personal property?  They are like modern day horses, dogs, or other pets.  Vhagar was Laena's dragon.  She was the only one that had been able to ride her.  Targaryan's are given dragon eggs at birth - they belong to each other. 

He did not steal a dragon.  They are not property.  Laena did not get Vhagar as an egg.  Vhagar's original rider was Aegon the Conqueror's sister Visenya.  When she died, Visery's father Baelon claimed her.  Laena didn't claim Vhagar until years after Baelon's death; the dragon was a free agent during that time and upon Laena's death, she was anyone's to claim.  Aemon had the guts to do it.  Laena's daughter didn't.

[sugarbaker design]

4 minutes ago, proserpina65 said:

I had no problem seeing everything during those scenes.  Hallelujah for archaic CRT tv technology.

Neither did I.  I just shut off my living room lamp.

[ursula]

12 hours ago, ZeeEnnui said:

Here was what didn't work for me. The rapid bonding between Rhaenyra and Laena's kids. They don't know each other at all. You don't suddenly become insta-family after meeting at the most awkward funeral ever. 

They fought a troll together.

“But from that moment, Baela and Rhaena, Luke and Jace became friends. There are some things you can't share without ending up liking each other, and punching out a twelve-year-old troll is one of them.”

Edited October 4, 2022 by ursula

[proserpina65]

On 10/2/2022 at 11:49 PM, Sakura12 said:

I did. Rhaena says you stole my mother's dragon. Aemond said the dragon is his a and told her maybe she could get a pig, it suits her. So he insulted her first. A girl that just lost her mother. He was all high from claiming a dragon and wanted to bully someone else. 

My opinion is that all the kids are at best spoiled brats, including the Velaryon girls.  That fight was a free-for-all and none of them were innocents.  Yes, Aemon talked shit, but he didn't start the violence.  Really, though, where the hell were the guards?  They could've stopped this a lot sooner.  They're terrible at their jobs.

[Oscirus]

8 minutes ago, proserpina65 said:

My opinion is that all the kids are at best spoiled brats, including the Velaryon girls.  That fight was a free-for-all and none of them were innocents.  Yes, Aemon talked shit, but he didn't start the violence.  Really, though, where the hell were the guards?  They could've stopped this a lot sooner.  They're terrible at their jobs.

I have to assume they were laughing and eating popcorn while watching the kids fight cuz they were out there as soon as Aemond got his eye screwed up.

Edited October 4, 2022 by Oscirus

[ursula]

5 minutes ago, proserpina65 said:

My opinion is that all the kids are at best spoiled brats, including the Velaryon girls.  That fight was a free-for-all and none of them were innocents.  Yes, Aemon talked shit, but he didn't start the violence.

Two little girls who had just buried their mother just found out that an important connection to her had been taken away. Then the person who did it rubbed their faces into it by reminding them that their mother is dead, and they should fly a pig instead.

I don't know how many adults would have handled that gracefully but you think a 7-year-old and a 9-year-old being upset in this situation means they're "Spoiled Brats"? Yikes. 😬😬😬

[proserpina65]

On 10/3/2022 at 12:35 AM, snickers said:

For sure....why do I get the sense we are going to see a scene of the daughter torturing humans with those insects/spiders?

She does seem very off, that's for sure.

On 10/3/2022 at 1:03 AM, Stardancer Supreme said:

I thought for sure he was going to point the finger at Alicent.

She's obviously where he heard it first but I think he actually wanted to protect her and thought the king wouldn't do anything to his own son, which is why he threw Aegon under the bus instead.  I'm actually surprised the Aegon kinda did the sort of right thing there.

On 10/3/2022 at 2:25 AM, Chicago Redshirt said:

Regardless of how much training she might have had, there also is the possibility/probability that Vhagar would have recognized Rhaena as Leana's daughter or bonded with her as easily as she did with Aemond, or even easier. 

And just as much probability that Vhagar would've toasted her like a marshmallow.