S01.E04: King of the Narrow Sea

[ursula]

5 hours ago, Affogato said:

This Viserys had an advantage, bonding with an old dragon. When he died, Viserys saw what the bonding did to him and decided not to bond with another dragon.

Viserys doesn’t have a choice though. You can’t bond to more than one dragon, even after the dragon dies. It’s why Dany only ever rode Drogo. A dragon can have several riders. The humans are - in a very real sense- the dragon’s pets.

[AntFTW]

What's the time jump between the last episode and this one?

[Sakura12]

1 minute ago, AntFTW said:

What's the time jump between the last episode and this one?

1 year, since they said Aegon is 3.

[Affogato]

4 minutes ago, ursula said:

Viserys doesn’t have a choice though. You can’t bond to more than one dragon, even after the dragon dies. It’s why Dany only ever rode Drogo. A dragon can have several riders. The humans are - in a very real sense- the dragon’s pets.

He talked like he had a choice. But perhaps I’m wrong. 

[Roseanna]

5 hours ago, Affogato said:

In my opinion, there is nothing inherently wrong with the act of incest. What makes it awful--and it usually is--is that it happens in families behind closed doors, is usually abusive, and when someone objects to it they lose their primary support system, since the rest of their family pushes them away. 

I think there is a valid reason for an incest taboo: sexual rivalry is no good for a family.  When many generations lived together, it was important also to make severe punishment against relationship that weren't biologically incest (father - daughter-in-law, son - mother-in-law, wife - brother-in-law, husband - sister-in-law).

Usually, choosing a spouse outside family can give new skills and allies. Only, if you want to keep fortune intact or believe that your line is "divine", incest makes sense.   

[tennisgurl]

21 hours ago, Roseanna said:

I think there is a valid reason for an incest taboo: sexual rivalry is no good for a family. 

Plus generations of incest does not do a family many favors in the health department. You could end up with a genetic disorder run amuck (like the hemophilia that passed through the children and other relatives of Queen Victoria) or other health issues that come from too much inbreeding. Plus, you want to avoid that Hapsburg chin at all costs! 

Its probably due to the generations of inbreeding that the Targaryens have always had so many issues with having children and with mental health. 

Edited September 13, 2022 by tennisgurl

[Affogato]

49 minutes ago, Roseanna said:

I think there is a valid reason for an incest taboo: sexual rivalry is no good for a family.  When many generations lived together, it was important also to make severe punishment against relationship that weren't biologically incest (father - daughter-in-law, son - mother-in-law, wife - brother-in-law, husband - sister-in-law).

Usually, choosing a spouse outside family can give new skills and allies. Only, if you want to keep fortune intact or believe that your line is "divine", incest makes sense.   

Certainly having sex with your brother's wife is disruptive to your relationship with your brother, but I'm pretty sure it isn't called incest. . By the same token I'm sure that marrying your dead brother's wife makes close family gatherings awkward at first, particularly if children are involved, but it isn't incest. Also, the wife in question has her own family to return to if it becomes unbearable for her.

I believe you a right, we are kind of hardwired to seek the exotic for sexual intercourse, and I believe studies have shown that people often marry people who are similar. Certainly if we live in small villages and travel is hard having these impulses, and even small wars, help to keep the gene pool fresh and also let people learn new skills, but if we encouraged some natural inclinations, perhaps people would stay in their small group and marry their cousins.

[LadyChaos]

Kinda wondering if the real reason Rhaenera agreed to marry Leanor so easily is that she knew it would give her the cover to continue sleeping with Ser Cole.

[iMonrey]

Quote

Ser Criston was really between a rock and a hard place with Rhaenya, he's a knight without a powerful family to back him up and she's the one who has supported his place in the kingsguard, he probably felt like he had to make her happy, but he also clearly knows how badly this can go for him if he gets caught deflowering the princess and heir to the throne. 

Even as I was watching it occurred to me that if he really wanted to stop things, he could say "Look, it's basically a death sentence for me if anyone finds out about this. I'll go through with it if you want but basically you're saying my life means nothing to you." I think Rhaenyra cares enough for him that it would have snapped her into the reality of it.

Quote

I hate it when writers explain things that aren't shown in the show, especially when they don't even make sense. 

That's a pet peeve of mine too. You're not doing a good job of showing if you have to explain. In a way this show has the opposite problem of GoT - it's moving almost too quickly. 

[Scarlett45]

24 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

Even as I was watching it occurred to me that if he really wanted to stop things, he could say "Look, it's basically a death sentence for me if anyone finds out about this. I'll go through with it if you want but basically you're saying my life means nothing to you." I think Rhaenyra cares enough for him that it would have snapped her into the reality of it.

Yes I agree. He was clearly thinking of the consequences with the brain in his head, she was thinking of the sexy times ahead with her clitoris.

I bet if they have a conversation about it next week, especially after what we saw went down between her and her father she would go “Damn, I didn’t think of that.” And then pout (not as Ser Cole but the situation) because her status is depriving her of something else she wants (being able to choose her own sex partners). 

[cambridgeguy]

3 hours ago, LadyChaos said:

Kinda wondering if the real reason Rhaenera agreed to marry Leanor so easily is that she knew it would give her the cover to continue sleeping with Ser Cole.

I'd like to think she was smart enough to know she was backed into a corner.   Viserys said disinheriting her would divide the realm when in fact all evidence indicates the exact opposite is true at the moment.  If she really wants to be queen then she had to give in, but at least she was able to get Otto fired.

[Jack Shaftoe]

Why the hell was Rhaenyra on a tour looking for someone to marry? I am sure there are thousands and thousands of candidates who would make the trip to King's Landing instead. Did she interview all those and then decided none was good enough, so a trip around the kingdom was in order? And interviewing everyone in full view of her entourage and the other candidates literally queuing up nearby was too sitcom-y for taste.

And nobody would marry Rhaenyra if they knew she was "sullied"? For fuck's sake, Viserys, many people would marry much worse than that if she happens to come with a throne. Yes, it would be a deal-breaker for some but hardly for everyone. People had plenty of extramarital sex in the Middle Ages and plenty of non-virgins did get married. People wanting to crown Rhaenyra's brother instead would be a far bigger issue than not having literally any candidates for her hand.

I don't know, the political intrigue in this show comes across as Dumb vs Dumber. I guess that's somewhat realistic but it doesn't exactly make for gripping television. Viserys is so prone to taking the advice of the last person he talked to that I am surprised that he doesn't change his Hand every other day. Rhaenyra often acts like a modern day teenager who is utterly baffled by the customs of this strange world that should all too familiar to her. Daemon is... well, in the immortal words of Phoebe from Friends "Pretty but dumb. Actually, that's pretty dumb". He is lucky his brother is the most lenient king ever.

Oh, and good thing they continue with the grand tradition of servants, ladies-in-waiting, etc. not existing when it's time for hot illicit sex. Jayme and Cersei managed to keep up at it for more than a decade, let's see how long the new forbidden passion will last.

Edited September 13, 2022 by Jack Shaftoe

[Lady Whistleup]

I think it's interesting how Alicent is more comfortable operating in soft power and Rhaenyra already showing her preference for hard power. 

Alicent is officially the queen and she could be like Queen Cersei, but she's chosen a very different approach. In general, she does not make threats or railroad people. She tries to present her opinions as advice. She's just advising Rhaenyra to be more discreet. She's not threatening Rhae at all. Just some friendly advice. 

Rhaenyra this episode showed several instances of hard power. Her propositioning Criston was one -- she trapped him and basically said "fuck me now." 

Two different girls of the same age, very different approaches.

[jeansheridan]

3 hours ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

Why the hell was Rhaenyra on a tour looking for someone to marry?

It's a great way for her see her future kingdom. Imagine a royal tour. She would see all the lands and meet the great households. I am bummed now the whole ep wasn't her tour. It would have been fun to see Westeros during a prosperous, non-war era. And to meet more future players in the coming conflict.

[magdalene]

This show has done a number on me. I thought the married sex between Viserys/Alicent was extra icky while the incest sexy times with Uncle Daemon and his niece were not icky at all.

Here's something I don't understand. Does Daemon know that Lady Misery is an informer for Otto Hightower?  Like most scenes with Daemon when he woke up hung over he seemed surprised to see her and it was all very ambiguous.

[Roseanna]

10 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Plus generations of incest does not do a family many favors in the health department. You could end up with a genetic disorder run amuck (like the hemophilia that passed through the children and other relatives of Queen Victoria) or other health issues that come from too much inbreeding. Plus, you want to avoid that Hapsburg chin at all costs! 

Its probably due to the generations of inbreeding that the Targaryen have always had so many issues with having children and with mental health. 

People didn't know health consequences then. 

But the phenomenon is true enough: if people chose spouse inside a village for generations, it's more likely that a child gets a gene causing hereditary disease from both parents.  

[Roseanna]

10 hours ago, Affogato said:

Certainly having sex with your brother's wife is disruptive to your relationship with your brother, but I'm pretty sure it isn't called incest. . By the same token I'm sure that marrying your dead brother's wife makes close family gatherings awkward at first, particularly if children are involved, but it isn't incest. Also, the wife in question has her own family to return to if it becomes unbearable for her.

I spoke of the situation where a family of many generations lived together in the same house. If the husband found his wife in flagrante with his brother, he could kill both. Or the lovers could plan to murder the husband.

And the wife had no chance to return to her family. She could easily be prevented even to have contact with them. 

[Pestilentia]

17 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Poor Alicent, she's done everything that has been asked of her but all she has gotten is loneliness.

If Alicent is bored it's her own fault- she's Queen, she could take up any hobby she likes.
We've yet to see a ladies maid or dressmaker- perhaps she could become interested in fashion? Social issues? Feeding the poor, perhaps?
Other Queens take up dogs or gardening- she could have the most luscious gardens anywhere. She could take a lover. She could tend her children once in a while.

If a Queen is bored or unhappy it's lack of imagination more than anything else. I get that she feels trapped and not exactly deep in a whirlwind romance but it's not as if she couldn't find ways to amuse herself if she'd bother. If I want to feel sorry for someone in this story it's going to be the street urchins/little birds or that guy that got nailed to the post while crabs chewed his eyeballs out. Not a woman who has everything she needs except someone to hold her hand.

I have no sympathy for feckless women.

[Haleth]

All that is true but she's still a teenager herself.  It doesn't seem as if she mopes around or complains to anyone about her hard life, she just expressed a bit of envy about not being able to marry someone she loves, as Rhaenyra can.

[Dac22]

7 hours ago, magdalene said:

This show has done a number on me. I thought the married sex between Viserys/Alicent was extra icky while the incest sexy times with Uncle Daemon and his niece were not icky at all.

I found both to be incredibly icky. 

The incest angle doesn't bother me on shows like this in general, but between their (Daemon and Rhaenyra) history and Daemon's motivations, I consider it to be pretty horrific.

Seriously, intending to use his niece as a tool and spoil her to get back at his brother is a pretty horrible thing to do in my opinion. I just have a hard time looking past that. 

Edited September 13, 2022 by Dac22

[Constantinople]

For one night, I wish to be free of the burdens of my inheritance - Rhaenyra

Remember that the next time your father asks you to stop pouting so he can put politics aside while holding a friendly, family oriented, deer killing picnic in the Kingswood.

Edited September 13, 2022 by Constantinople

[DrSparkles]

On 9/12/2022 at 9:23 AM, Affogato said:

You know, there is nothing inherently (ah...) wrong with inbreeding. We get big breasts in chickens, disease resistance in wheat, mobile eyebrows to make dogs more relatable, and probably a lot of characteristics in humans as well.  It is generally positive until it isn't, and then you stop and breed out for a few generations.

In my opinion, there is nothing inherently wrong with the act of incest. What makes it awful--and it usually is--is that it happens in families behind closed doors, is usually abusive, and when someone objects to it they lose their primary support system, since the rest of their family pushes them away.  If you are adopted and find out your are married to your half brother, also adopted, who was raised by different parents on the other side of the country--should be okay, really.

As I see it the Targaryens interbred to reinforce the genes that allowed them to bond with the dragons. Dragons are useful creatures, kingmakers.

That bonding with dragons, who are wild, impulsive and cruel animals by nature, doesn't do you any favors in human society. People bonded with dragons often go crazy. Lord, is that common with the Targs. It may be that the ability to be open to dragons predisposes you to it, too.

Guessing this is what is supposed to happen with a certain dragon queen in the future, and what is happening now. Rhae and Daemon are both a lot alike in the way they approach problems. They are attracted to each other. They both want to be on top, and Daemon's impotence happened when Rhaenerys took control.  Both of them are users and use power to get what they want.

This Viserys had an advantage, bonding with an old dragon. When he died, Viserys saw what the bonding did to him and decided not to bond with another dragon. So Viserys is actually sane and even goes out of his way to avoid the dragon characteristics, and tries not to abuse his power, but he still understands the pressures his family is under.

“Dr” Oz, dat you?

[Constantinople]

21 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

 Poor Alicent, she's done everything that has been asked of her but all she has gotten is loneliness. Viserys isn't a bad guy and they seem to get along fine, but there clearly isn't any love between them, he's still mourning his beloved first wife while Alicent is just not into him in that kind of way. It was so nice to see her and Rhaenya getting along for a second, but of course now its looking bad again with the scandal.

3 hours ago, Pestilentia said:

If Alicent is bored it's her own fault- she's Queen, she could take up any hobby she likes.

But I am glad you are home. I find I have... few friends lately. I like to believe I'm still the Lady Alicent, but... all anyone sees when they look at me now is "The Queen." - Alicent to Rhaenyra.

I don't think the issue is a lack of things to do, it's that Alicent can't share them with friends because she doesn't really have any friends. Friendship doesn't require absolute equality between friends, but it's easier to develop and maintain when you're one noble daughter among many than when you're expected to act as the Queen 24/7.

Viserys doesn't seem to have any friends either and for the same reason. Daemon is best positioned to be his friend given that they're royal brothers. See how happy Viserys was with Daemon at the garden party. But Daemon is unwilling to do that.

[ursula]

5 hours ago, Pestilentia said:

If Alicent is bored it's her own fault- she's Queen, she could take up any hobby she likes.

Not just hobbies, but causes. Queen Alysanne was famous and beloved for her social causes and reforms. There's nothing stopping Alicent from picking up one cause. There's more to being Queen than sitting pretty, having babies and gossiping with girlfriends.

Edited September 13, 2022 by ursula

[Affogato]

1 hour ago, DrSparkles said:

“Dr” Oz, dat you?

So you would rather not reap the benefits of animal and plant breeding programs? Even natural, non gmo ones?
 

i tend to dislike dogmatic decisions. I don’t believe in capital punisment  but I can think of times when it would be justified, even real world examples. 

I’m guessing, as I mentioned, that the Targs were trying to breed and reinforce the dragon bonding. It probably bit them on the ass, maybe for reasons of genetics and maybe for other reasons. But so has the creation of the atom bomb in our society. 
 

really incest is the least interesting part of the story. 
 

[Affogato]

9 hours ago, Roseanna said:

I spoke of the situation where a family of many generations lived together in the same house. If the husband found his wife in flagrante with his brother, he could kill both. Or the lovers could plan to murder the husband.

And the wife had no chance to return to her family. She could easily be prevented even to have contact with them. 

Yeah?  sounds like a horror movie plot to me. I’ not convinced this puts *incest* in a bad light. 
 

out of curiosity where was this happening specifically? 

[LadyChaos]

16 hours ago, cambridgeguy said:

I'd like to think she was smart enough to know she was backed into a corner.   Viserys said disinheriting her would divide the realm when in fact all evidence indicates the exact opposite is true at the moment.  If she really wants to be queen then she had to give in, but at least she was able to get Otto fired.

I think she is smart enough to know that she is not only backed into the corner, but finally getting married would allow her several freedoms and help her position.

[Chicago Redshirt]

16 hours ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

Why the hell was Rhaenyra on a tour looking for someone to marry? I am sure there are thousands and thousands of candidates who would make the trip to King's Landing instead. Did she interview all those and then decided none was good enough, so a trip around the kingdom was in order? And interviewing everyone in full view of her entourage and the other candidates literally queuing up nearby was too sitcom-y for taste.

And nobody would marry Rhaenyra if they knew she was "sullied"? For fuck's sake, Viserys, many people would marry much worse than that if she happens to come with a throne. Yes, it would be a deal-breaker for some but hardly for everyone. People had plenty of extramarital sex in the Middle Ages and plenty of non-virgins did get married. People wanting to crown Rhaenyra's brother instead would be a far bigger issue than not having literally any candidates for her hand.

Viserys said she could marry who she liked, so it's a fair ask for her to actually meet the possible suitors, while touring her future queendom.

It seems reasonable that an old-fashioned society would place such emphasis on virginity in general but also on not-sleeping-with-your-uncle that a lot of the who's who would pass on Rhaenyra. It would be a dealbreaker for most, apparently. 

[king of bullshit]

Man that Alicent sex scene was depressing; and I suppose, deliberately juxtaposed against Rhaenyra's wild night. Her restricted, joyless sex life with a man she has no attraction to vs Rhaenyra's liberating, adventurous romp with two men she's definitely attracted to that results in a hot steamy night with at least one of them.

Viserys's: 'you think yourself a cunning man? your designs are obvious.', along with: 'everyone on the council and throughout the kingdom is self interested' led me to think he'd been aware of Otto's machinations all along. And that perhaps he'd also seen through what I've suspected may be a veil of "unencumbered opinion" hiding a selfish agenda in Lord's Strong's counsel.

I was really beginning to appreciate that his flaws as king notwithstanding, Rhaenys's "Your father is no fool" sentiment to Rhaenyra in ep 2 rang absolutely true.

Then he upends all that by telling Otto he'd only just cottoned on to his "calculations" with Alicent. 

I mean, I know he was in grief at the time but damn...

[paigow]

The Starks did not appear to have a lot of incestuous activity, yet Generation Ned did not produce any MENSA candidates. So Viserys not always picking up betrayal vibes is not uniquely linked to inbreeding.

Edited September 14, 2022 by paigow

[DigitalCount]

2 hours ago, paigow said:

The Starks did not appear to have a lot of incestuous activity, yet Generation Ned did not produce any MENSA candidates. So Viserys not always picking up betrayal vibes is not uniquely linked to inbreeding.

In fairness I think Ned's parents were first cousins, but that isn't as close as the Lannister twins, of course.

[LadyChaos]

There is a lot of imbreeding in all the great houses....there are only so many great houses to marry into....so many of them are first/second cousins......In GOT, I think it was said at some point that all the houses had some Targ blood by then......could be wrong, but I think there was a Stark at some point that married a niece or nephew....

[ursula]

On 9/12/2022 at 7:29 PM, Jack Shaftoe said:

Why the hell was Rhaenyra on a tour looking for someone to marry? I am sure there are thousands and thousands of candidates who would make the trip to King's Landing instead. Did she interview all those and then decided none was good enough, so a trip around the kingdom was in order? And interviewing everyone in full view of her entourage and the other candidates literally queuing up nearby was too sitcom-y for taste.

Because she's going to be the future Queen of Westeros and this was an opportunity to meet and mingle with the leaders of the Great Houses and form alliances with them. Which she blew by being condescending, and flat out rude to several of the men. 

On 9/12/2022 at 7:29 PM, Jack Shaftoe said:

And nobody would marry Rhaenyra if they knew she was "sullied"? For fuck's sake, Viserys, many people would marry much worse than that if she happens to come with a throne. Yes, it would be a deal-breaker for some but hardly for everyone. People had plenty of extramarital sex in the Middle Ages and plenty of non-virgins did get married. People wanting to crown Rhaenyra's brother instead would be a far bigger issue than not having literally any candidates for her hand.

People wanting to crown Rhaenyra's brother because she's "wayward" is all the more reason why it's a big deal that Rhaenyra is "sullied". In those days, a woman's "virtue" was a sign of her character. Which yuck, I know, but that's the world they lived in.

On 9/12/2022 at 7:29 PM, Jack Shaftoe said:

I don't know, the political intrigue in this show comes across as Dumb vs Dumber. I guess that's somewhat realistic but it doesn't exactly make for gripping television.

I agree that it's dumb but I disagree that it's realistic. I think the writers/show is trying too much to wink at the audience (isn't it crazy that women and men have double standards??? isn't it crazy that marriages have huge age gaps) that it breaks immersion and makes the characters look stupid. Like I mentioned above, Rhaenyra's "Bacheorette" tour was an opportunity for her to meet the people she would rule, and she acted like an insufferable brat through it all. That would make sense for a girl living in the 21st century but not for a Princess of the Realm who has been taught to comport herself and certainly not the Crown Princess. Where are her allies? (Her bodyguard/babysitter doesn't count). What is her cause, how is she making herself known and popular amongst her people? What does she do when she's not riding her dragon and looking bored out of her mind? The early episode seemed to be going somewhere interesting when she took her dragon to confront Daemon, and I really thought they would have her fight in the Stepstones War and win acclaim as a war hero. But she's done nothing.

And it's one thing if this was supposed to be a plot point i.e. Rhaenyra sitting on her ass and expecting the Iron Throne to just come to her regardless of how she behaved as a plot point, and people talked about this. e.g. if during her trip to the brothel with Daemon, the play had focused on how the people didn't know Rhaenyra and maybe some other Targaryen Princess (Rhaenys or Leana) was more popular because they engaged with the smallfolk. But it's not (plot relevant). Instead they just focus on "we don't like her because she has girl cooties". 

[Athena5217]

23 minutes ago, ursula said:

Like I mentioned above, Rhaenyra's "Bacheorette" tour was an opportunity for her to meet the people she would rule, and she acted like an insufferable brat through it all. That would make sense for a girl living in the 21st century but not for a Princess of the Realm who has been taught to comport herself and certainly not the Crown Princess. Where are her allies? (Her bodyguard/babysitter doesn't count). What is her cause, how is she making herself known and popular amongst her people? What does she do when she's not riding her dragon and looking bored out of her mind? The early episode seemed to be going somewhere interesting when she took her dragon to confront Daemon, and I really thought they would have her fight in the Stepstones War and win acclaim as a war hero. But she's done nothing.

Do you remember Prince Joffrey? Unfortunately, young people in the royal family of Westeros may be brats. 
 

So far, compared to Joffrey, Rhaenyra is an angel. However, she does seem to have that attitude “One day I will be the king/queen, so everyone should do what I want.” A reason why power should not be inherited.

[KittyQ]

On 9/11/2022 at 9:04 PM, SoWindsor said:

The chemistry between Daemon and Rhaynera is really intense. Matt Smith, while not particularly attractive, has so much sex appeal. 
 

RE: Matt Smith - He has a quirky look, but I thought he was pretty sexy as Prince Philip on The Crown.

[Roseanna]

4 hours ago, Athena5217 said:

A reason why power should not be inherited.

One can't judge a "feudal" society according to the modern standards.

Such a society was very weak as the king had little resources of state in his command but had to rely on his nobles to raise troops in order to go to war or stifle a rebellion. Things that kept the realm together were ideology (religion), ties of loyalty upwards and downwards, fiefs and the firm succession order. Without the latter, there would be a danger of a power struggle with arms between claimants to throne when the monarch died. 

Of course, hereditary succession could be a weakness when the ruler was mad, weak, minor or a woman - especially when the nobles were too powerful. 

[Roseanna]

5 hours ago, ursula said:

Because she's going to be the future Queen of Westeros and this was an opportunity to meet and mingle with the leaders of the Great Houses and form alliances with them. Which she blew by being condescending, and flat out rude to several of the men. 

People wanting to crown Rhaenyra's brother because she's "wayward" is all the more reason why it's a big deal that Rhaenyra is "sullied". In those days, a woman's "virtue" was a sign of her character. Which yuck, I know, but that's the world they lived in.

I agree that it's dumb but I disagree that it's realistic. I think the writers/show is trying too much to wink at the audience (isn't it crazy that women and men have double standards??? isn't it crazy that marriages have huge age gaps) that it breaks immersion and makes the characters look stupid. Like I mentioned above, Rhaenyra's "Bacheorette" tour was an opportunity for her to meet the people she would rule, and she acted like an insufferable brat through it all. That would make sense for a girl living in the 21st century but not for a Princess of the Realm who has been taught to comport herself and certainly not the Crown Princess. Where are her allies? (Her bodyguard/babysitter doesn't count). What is her cause, how is she making herself known and popular amongst her people? What does she do when she's not riding her dragon and looking bored out of her mind? The early episode seemed to be going somewhere interesting when she took her dragon to confront Daemon, and I really thought they would have her fight in the Stepstones War and win acclaim as a war hero. But she's done nothing.

And it's one thing if this was supposed to be a plot point i.e. Rhaenyra sitting on her ass and expecting the Iron Throne to just come to her regardless of how she behaved as a plot point, and people talked about this. e.g. if during her trip to the brothel with Daemon, the play had focused on how the people didn't know Rhaenyra and maybe some other Targaryen Princess (Rhaenys or Leana) was more popular because they engaged with the smallfolk. But it's not (plot relevant). Instead they just focus on "we don't like her because she has girl cooties". 

That.

Why not build Rhaenyra's character so that she had two opposite motives:
1. she is ambitions to become Queen and able and willing to do things that further her ambition fulfilled (f.ex. marry a man whose resources are best; make allies, manipulate and bribe people; supersede other claimants to the throne, maybe even arrange an "accident" where her step-brother is killed) 
2. she is either in love with somebody she can't marry or she can't resist having sex although she knows that it can endanger everything

Well, now she had sex but without any struggle that the urge was so powerful that she forgot her ambition.             

[qtpye]

I think it is kind of hilarious that it never occurred to the King and his brother that women can lust. I smelled trouble brewing as soon as the princess was assigned the hot bodyguard. It’s funny but very in keeping with the times they are trying to ape.

[Lady S.]

On 9/12/2022 at 11:54 PM, magdalene said:

Here's something I don't understand. Does Daemon know that Lady Misery is an informer for Otto Hightower?  Like most scenes with Daemon when he woke up hung over he seemed surprised to see her and it was all very ambiguous.

I don't think so. Her change in career seemed like new information that he was too hungover to absorb. I read it as the first time they'd seen each other in a while. I've seen others thinking the two of them planned the boy's spying on Rhaenyra, but that doesn't make any sense to me, in part because it would be a terrible plan. I can't imagine Daemon wanting the news to go through Ser Otto or lying on the floor with a knife at his throat to make his bid for Rhaenyra's hand. I also just don't think he's a particuarly cunning schemer type. The proto-Varys hustle is Mysaria's own thing, and this time working against his interests.

It occurs to me that as Rhaenyra straight-up lied about Daemon never touching her (sworn on her mother's memory! as Viserys swore she wouldn't be supplanted), Daemon was actually more truthful. He never outright confirmed the allegations and claimed he had pooped her cherry, just said it was better her experience be with him. And I bet that definetely was a night of first experiences for her. If not first kiss, first heavy makeout with a man, first time getting felt up top and bottom, first time getting so horny etc. 

On 9/12/2022 at 5:19 PM, iMonrey said:

Even as I was watching it occurred to me that if he really wanted to stop things, he could say "Look, it's basically a death sentence for me if anyone finds out about this. I'll go through with it if you want but basically you're saying my life means nothing to you." I think Rhaenyra cares enough for him that it would have snapped her into the reality of it.

Yeah, that's what I meant. He doesn't have to be a mind reader but they've known each other four years at this point, with him always at her side. He probably knows her well enough not to fear she'd turning into a raging woman scorned who'd make the rest of his life a living hell to serve if he insisted on leaving her bedroom for very good reason.

I don't think it was a pure penis-thinking Jaime Lannister experience either, though. His lingering look at the white cloak was not subtle, it was a consideration of honor vs. temptation. I'd compare it more to Jon Snow with Ygritte. Except Jon had even more immediate threat to his life from his undercover mission, with Ygritte saying he had to prove his loyalty by fucking her. 

All three sex scenes were meant to bring some level of discomfort, I think, with only the two involving Rhaenyra having any sexyness. One scene involved a scabby older man grunting on top of his dead-eyed teen wife, another was an uncle trying to corrupt his teen niece in a brothel surrounded by witnesses, and the last was a bodyguard sleeping with his teen girlboss. I know the Viserys/Alicent one was most uncomfortable for me where it was clear there was 0 desire on her part, only unpleasant duty, whereas there did feel like reciprocal desire in the last scene. And it's easy to find that one refreshing and least bad when the two are unrelated, he's not old enough to be her father, and Rhaenyra not thinking of the consequences for her partner does not compare to Daemon having ulterior motives, knowingly trying to corrupt her and only stopping when her looking at him with love in her eyes made him go soft.  

By the end of the ep, Rhaenyra switched out her Daemon necklace for a different one. So I think she's over Daemon for the moment and ready to move on, looking happy to see Criston the next morning. Poor guy must have been nervous when he was escorting her to meet Viserys, though.

For any remaining Rhaenicent shippers: was Alicent so hurt by her father's allegations because she was jealous of Rhaenyra's sexual freedom or because she was jealous Rhaenyra had a lover who wasn't her? The jealousy is definitely there, that was not just about concern for Rhaenyra's marriageabilty on Viserys's behalf. The bluntness of saying Rhaenyra was accused of fucking Daemon was striking. 

7 minutes ago, qtpye said:

I think it is kind of hilarious that it never occurred to the King and his brother that women can lust.

I found it funny Viserys's initial response to hearing she snuck out to a brothel was whatever. Like she can take in a sex show if she wants, no big deal, just live versions of the wall art, but it's unthinkable she'd do anything more.

Someone earlier mentioned her comfort in taking charge of sex positions, but really isn't it more surprising she was so good at taking off all that armor? Was she spending her younger years as a squire as well as king's cupbearer? (Nice that she graduated to a seat at the council table this ep, btw.)

[Roseanna]

9 minutes ago, qtpye said:

I think it is kind of hilarious that it never occurred to the King and his brother that women can lust. I smelled trouble brewing as soon as the princess was assigned the hot bodyguard. It’s funny but very in keeping with the times they are trying to ape.

They don't ape anything, it's complete fantasy. 

A princess or queen was never alone but with at least one of ladies and servants by day and night.

That didn't mean they couldn't have an affair, but they must be helped by at least one of their women and get others be silent.     

[Lady S.]

Updated for 1.04 (I left the name of Alicent's second baby blank since it annoyingly wasn't mentioned in the ep. That's how much I'm trying to avoid spoiling anyone.)

[Roseanna]

1 hour ago, qtpye said:

I think it is kind of hilarious that it never occurred to the King and his brother that women can lust. I smelled trouble brewing as soon as the princess was assigned the hot bodyguard. It’s funny but very in keeping with the times they are trying to ape.

Actually, the concept that a "pure" woman defended her "virtue" against a lustful man was born only in the 18th century's bourgeois novel, in Pamela and Clarissa by Samuel Richardson. Earlier it was a woman who was more sexual and seduced a man.

In Romeo and Juliet, she is 13 years old and in love the first time but knows full well what she wants - to bed Romeo but first they must marry.     

1 hour ago, Lady S. said:

isn't it more surprising she was so good at taking off all that armor? Was she spending her younger years as a squire as well as king's cupbearer? 

Irl, it was noble ladies' task took the armor of the lordly warrior off and bath him. 

[Enigma X]

7 hours ago, KittyQ said:

RE: Matt Smith - He has a quirky look, but I thought he was pretty sexy as Prince Philip on The Crown.

I did not watch The Crown, but he is my third favorite Doctor of the Doctor Who franchise. Do I find him to be the most handsome man ever? No, but I do find him helluva attractive.

[paigow]

18 minutes ago, Enigma X said:

I did not watch The Crown, but he is my third favorite Doctor of the Doctor Who franchise. 

I have not watched The Crown nor Doctor Who... but the Doctor Matt Smith wardrobe photos reminded me of Bill Nye... so going from nerd to super pervy killing machine is a testament to his acting skill,,,

[Jack Shaftoe]

10 hours ago, ursula said:

People wanting to crown Rhaenyra's brother because she's "wayward" is all the more reason why it's a big deal that Rhaenyra is "sullied".

Indeed but it's not going to make her marriage literally impossible as the King was saying. Even if she is no longer the heir to the throne, many lords would happily marry her in order to suck up to Viserys

10 hours ago, ursula said:

I think the writers/show is trying too much to wink at the audience (isn't it crazy that women and men have double standards??? isn't it crazy that marriages have huge age gaps) that it breaks immersion and makes the characters look stupid. Like I mentioned above, Rhaenyra's "Bacheorette" tour was an opportunity for her to meet the people she would rule, and she acted like an insufferable brat through it all. That would make sense for a girl living in the 21st century but not for a Princess of the Realm who has been taught to comport herself and certainly not the Crown Princess. Where are her allies? (Her bodyguard/babysitter doesn't count). What is her cause, how is she making herself known and popular amongst her people? What does she do when she's not riding her dragon and looking bored out of her mind? The early episode seemed to be going somewhere interesting when she took her dragon to confront Daemon, and I really thought they would have her fight in the Stepstones War and win acclaim as a war hero. But she's done nothing.

That's a common problem with this kind of shows/books - every high ranking noble should be surrounded at all times by a veritable army of servants, pages, ladies in waiting and other kinds of hangers-on and attendants. Here we get one or two scenes per episode where Viserys or Rhaenyra is surrounded by a crowd but apart from these largely ceremonial events, the palace seems almost entirely empty. Rhaenyra should have her own coterie of nobles supporting her position as heir apparent and doing everything they can to keep things that way. She should be trying something, anything, to show to the great nobles that she is a worthy heir and building her power base. She should be demanding loudly to participate in the king's council or be given some land to rule as preparation for her future duties. But nope, she is sulking. And thanks to the time skips, it often seems she has done nothing in the meantime but sulk about events that happened years ago.

4 hours ago, qtpye said:

I think it is kind of hilarious that it never occurred to the King and his brother that women can lust. I smelled trouble brewing as soon as the princess was assigned the hot bodyguard. It’s funny but very in keeping with the times they are trying to ape.

No, it's not, if anything it's the opposite. Women were usually considered lusty and weak-willed and this necessitated all the measures to preserve their "innocence". Queens and princesses in particular were practically never alone and gallivanting in town without anyone raising the alarm would have required the cooperation of a whole bunch of servants and other attendants. In Westeros, on the other hand, the Queen can have affair with her own brother for years and get away with it with ridiculous ease because drama.

Edited September 14, 2022 by Jack Shaftoe

[ursula]

1 hour ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

Indeed but it's not going to make her marriage literally impossible as the King was saying. Even if she is no longer the heir to the throne, many lords would happily marry her in order to suck up to Viserys

Honestly it's baffling why Viserys still considers her his heir at this point. She has disappointed and embarrassed him, and hasn't shown or done anything to prove she'll be such a great Queen he can overlook convention for her. And he finally has a son. Sure, he'll always love his daughter, but the show's doing nothing to convince me why he's so determined to make her Queen when the alternative is so much easier. 

Edited September 14, 2022 by ursula

[Colorado David]

53 minutes ago, ursula said:

Honestly it's baffling why Viserys still considers her his heir at this point. She has disappointed and embarrassed him, and hasn't shown or done anything to prove she'll be such a great Queen he can overlook convention for her. And he finally has a son. Sure, he'll always love his daughter, but the show's doing nothing to convince me why he's so determined to make her Queen when the alternative is so much easier. 

I'm wondering if he feels it will make him appear indecisive if he keeps changing his heir.

[LadyChaos]

1 hour ago, ursula said:

Honestly it's baffling why Viserys still considers her his heir at this point. She has disappointed and embarrassed him, and hasn't shown or done anything to prove she'll be such a great Queen he can overlook convention for her. And he finally has a son. Sure, he'll always love his daughter, but the show's doing nothing to convince me why he's so determined to make her Queen when the alternative is so much easier. 

Well....she is also only 18...and in the instances she's made an attempt to prove herself she was told to sit down and shut up because she was a girl.....so....

I mean she did resolve the issue with her uncle in 102 without bloodshed....and did recommend how to end the issue with the crab feeder quickly and decisively...but was then sent right out of the room for having the audacity for speaking her mind....

[ursula]

1 hour ago, Colorado David said:

I'm wondering if he feels it will make him appear indecisive if he keeps changing his heir.

You could be right there. Viserys seems so insecure. After a lifetime of being told what to do by other people, he's decided that this the hill he'll die on. 

I just wish the show delved into this more. There's never been a Queen on the Iron Throne - Rhaenys is proof that the nobility will choose a further-down-the-line male relative over a woman with a direct claim. Right now, with a young son and a Queen who's likely to produce even more male children, the easiest thing for Viserys to do is to say, "Well I chose Rhaenyra when she was my only child. Now that I have a son, I will take that burden from her and follow convention."

53 minutes ago, LadyChaos said:

Well....she is also only 18...and in the instances she's made an attempt to prove herself she was told to sit down and shut up because she was a girl.....so....

I mean she did resolve the issue with her uncle in 102 without bloodshed....and did recommend how to end the issue with the crab feeder quickly and decisively...but was then sent right out of the room for having the audacity for speaking her mind....

Yeah, that's part of why I feel the writing for this show is sloppy. Viserys wants his daughter to be Queen. He seemed to be preparing her for that when he made her his Cupbearer so she was present during meetings and watched how the country was being run. So why is he discouraging her from being more involved? Sure, I can understand not wanting her to risk physical danger, but there's more to ruling than riding into battle.

(Speaking of being cupbearer, this is where modern day sensibilities keep breaking immersion. Rhaenys made it seem like being a Cupbearer was demeaning when in that time and place, this was an honor and part of the apprenticeship of sorts for future Lords and Ladies.)

Edited September 14, 2022 by ursula

[Enigma X]

I doubt the show has thought about what I am about ti say too much, but maybe Viserys knows he is literally decaying. and if he makes Aegon his heir now he will be too young to rule. Therefore, it is easier to leave Rhaenyra in place.