S01.E04: King of the Narrow Sea

[LanceM]

2 hours ago, ursula said:

You could be right there. Viserys seems so insecure. After a lifetime of being told what to do by other people, he's decided that this the hill he'll die on. 

I just wish the show delved into this more. There's never been a Queen on the Iron Throne - Rhaenys is proof that the nobility will choose a further-down-the-line male relative over a woman with a direct claim. Right now, with a young son and a Queen who's likely to produce even more male children, the easiest thing for Viserys to do is to say, "Well I chose Rhaenyra when she was my only child. Now that I have a son, I will take that burden from her and follow convention."

Yeah, that's part of why I feel the writing for this show is sloppy. Viserys wants his daughter to be Queen. He seemed to be preparing her for that when he made her his Cupbearer so she was present during meetings and watched how the country was being run. So why is he discouraging her from being more involved? Sure, I can understand not wanting her to risk physical danger, but there's more to ruling than riding into battle.

(Speaking of being cupbearer, this is where modern day sensibilities keep breaking immersion. Rhaenys made it seem like being a Cupbearer was demeaning when in that time and place, this was an honor and part of the apprenticeship of sorts for future Lords and Ladies.)

Well as of last episode Rhaeneyra has a seat in the small council so she presumably is now “allowed “ to share her opinions on the governance of the realm

[LadyChaos]

3 hours ago, ursula said:

(Speaking of being cupbearer, this is where modern day sensibilities keep breaking immersion. Rhaenys made it seem like being a Cupbearer was demeaning when in that time and place, this was an honor and part of the apprenticeship of sorts for future Lords and Ladies.)

Yeah...actuallly being cupbearer was a good thing for Rhaenera because it would allow her to be privy to all the happenings at the council.....which is probably why Otto didn't want her there.

[paigow]

Who will be the next Hand?

• Lord Strong
• Daemon
• Jason Lannister

[RobertDeSneero]

19 hours ago, Roseanna said:

Why not build Rhaenyra's character so that she had two opposite motives:

I think her character is being built towards the tension of whether she has the mad queen potential of Daenaerys (just like Daemon is shown to have the mad king potential of Aeris).  Is her uneven temperament because of her youth or because she has it within her to go nuts?  This being the GOT universe, we know that she's going to have plenty of provocations to go completely crazy if she is inclined to, because the ocean of tragedy pounds wave upon wave on everyone's shore in this world.

Is she the heroine of this tale?  Will she go overboard and be a complete villain who does the unforgivable in the eyes of the audience?  Will she be somewhere in-between where she does some icky things to have detractors but does enough things to have her supporters as well?  Will some part of the audience want her to be the heroine and turn on the show if she ends up being quite the opposite?

[jeansheridan]

9 hours ago, RobertDeSneero said:

Is she the heroine of this tale?  Will she go overboard and be a complete villain who does the unforgivable in the eyes of the audience?

Perhaps this is why they are swapping out the two lead actors. The older Rhynaera may be less appealing. I know Olivia Cooke will be a much tougher Alicent. She was stone cold in Thoroughbreds and biting in Me, Earl, and the Dying Girl. I think it will be a jarring change. The current Alicent is so soft seeming.

I actually feel for the King. His daughter and brother are deeply irritating. He wasn't kidding about her being a headache.

Edited September 15, 2022 by jeansheridan

[Lady S.]

As far as comparing Rhaenyra to rl medieval princesses, I'd just point out that none of them rode dragons or had ancestors that helped their husband win wars of conquest on dragonback. So yeah, this is very much a fantasy, not any historical fiction. And I don't know of any medieval princess named heiress when they had a living legitimate brother for that matter, either. In those circumstances, is it really a wonder Rhaenyra expects to grab some more male privilege? Maybe Rhaenyra would be fine with a half-sibling as heir instead of having her own children. Having Aegon take over after she dies is a lot different than being passed over now.

Seems to me that after the Conquest the Targs started adopting more of Westorosi patriarchal norms, and that assimilation wasn't all to the good. That's what Daemon was getting at about the House of the Dragon doing what they want and how it shouldn't matter what other lords say about Rhaenyra's chastity. After all, Daemon's sword Dark Sister is so named because it used to belong to Aegon's sister-wife Visenya, as Arya once told Tywin. Not that Daemon is a feminist so much as a dragon supremecist, which is why he can talk about his own wife in such mysoginistic terms. I wonder how much of his dissatisfaction with her is because she isn't related to him. 

18 hours ago, ursula said:

You could be right there. Viserys seems so insecure. After a lifetime of being told what to do by other people, he's decided that this the hill he'll die on. 

We see with the failed Laena Velaryon match that Viserys doesn't like people telling him to do something uncomfortable but can be manipulated without noticing. Alicent's chaste seduction worked but Otto plainly saying he wanted Rhaenyra to marry baby Aegon made Viserys laugh in his face and finally start to realize his agenda.

18 hours ago, ursula said:

(Speaking of being cupbearer, this is where modern day sensibilities keep breaking immersion. Rhaenys made it seem like being a Cupbearer was demeaning when in that time and place, this was an honor and part of the apprenticeship of sorts for future Lords and Ladies.)

Yes, but would a male heir still be doing that at 15 and meant not to contribute to the discussion? I think that was the issue. It was definitely an honor in the pilot for her to be in the council sessions without a voice, but she wasn't the heir then.

Viserys didn't even explain why he couldn't have her go off to war or do anything else to prepare her for rule besides spouting about an irrelevant prophecy. Then again, he really doesn't know much about being king. Guess Otto can be blamed for that too if Viserys says he taught him how to be a king.

As for Viserys's objection to Daemon/Rhaenyra's avuncular coupling, I think it was more about the age difference than incest, just as with the idea of Rhaenyra/Aegon. In context the quote is "she's just a girl, your niece", and Daemon points out she's of age, which is the whole reason he's trying to marry her off. That's hypocritical, of course, when she can't be much younger than Alicent, just like it's hypocritical of Rhaenyra to think the older lord was unseemly and scoff at the young teen Blackwood badass (who was what, 13/14? that's a fairly small age difference) when she would have preferred her father marry the 12yo cousin. (And her problem with him marrying Alicent is more the stealing her girlfriend aspect than the old enough to be her father aspect.) Rhaenyra has things in common with Viserys as well as Daemon, really.

Edited September 15, 2022 by Lady S.

[RobertDeSneero]

1 hour ago, Lady S. said:

As for Viserys's objection to Daemon/Rhaenyra's avuncular coupling, I think it was more about the age difference than incest, just as with the idea of Rhaenyra/Aegon.

I think V thinks D would be a bad influence on R.  He knows D would be as king on his own.  He expects D to try to dominate a relationship with R.  He doesn't want D anywhere near the throne for the good of the kingdom.

[Lady S.]

34 minutes ago, RobertDeSneero said:

I think V thinks D would be a bad influence on R.  He knows D would be as king on his own.  He expects D to try to dominate a relationship with R.  He doesn't want D anywhere near the throne for the good of the kingdom.

Right, that too. He named Rhaenyra heir specifically to disinherit Daemon so a marriage between them would be rather counter-productive even if Daemon weren't already married.

[Tatum]

On 9/11/2022 at 9:38 PM, dramachick said:

Rhaenyra, Viserys, and Daemon could all drop dead, and it wouldn't make any difference to me. I would love it if there was a subplot of a hero's journey in this show.

Otto and Alicent are interesting to watch as Otto plots and Alicent maneuvers to put baby Aegon on the throne. 

I agree! I thought I was crazy, but the Targeryans are so boring to me. Alicent and Otto, oily as the latter may be, are a lot more interesting to me. There really isn't much nuance so far to the platinum crew.

[Tatum]

I did like Viserys for about 2 min when he called out Otto for hemming and hawing when Otto was the one who deemed the matter urgent. No, you don't get to come storming in and then hide behind your little euphemisms and vague accusations. Come right out and say what you know and how you came to know it, and own that you only know because you were spying in the first place.

I don't give Viserys much credit beyond that. Look Viserys, Otto has been pulling your strings for years now, and that should have been inherently obvious to you the minute Alicent came into your room with her history book. Do you really think Alicent, timid, unassuming, obedient, most of all protocol following Alicent, took it upon herself to dress up, and come offer condolences in your bedroom, the night your wife died? Even if she was the most opportunistic schemer ever, she would not do that without her father's explicit consent. And who else would have told her to do it? Rhaenyra? Come on, Viserys. Wake up. This is not breaking news. Really, the King should just assume the default is every man is for himself, even the Hand. Maybe especially the Hand.

[DigitalCount]

3 hours ago, Tatum said:

Really, the King should just assume the default is every man is for himself, even the Hand. Maybe especially the Hand.

To his credit, that did seem to be his position when Rhaenyra was saying that Otto was self-interested, and the issue was that Otto was too far along that line. For example, Lord Strong is probably self-interested too, but he consistently gives counsel that is sensible (for their era) and and objectively useful.

[Tatum]

On 9/13/2022 at 9:32 AM, Constantinople said:

I don't think the issue is a lack of things to do, it's that Alicent can't share them with friends because she doesn't really have any friends. Friendship doesn't require absolute equality between friends, but it's easier to develop and maintain when you're one noble daughter among many than when you're expected to act as the Queen 24/7.

I agree. Yeah, it's first world problems, but that doesn't mean Alicent can't have any disappointments in life simply because it could have been much worse. I mean, I think it's worth considering that in this world, the best a royal woman can hope to be is merely bored/lonely instead of being beaten/raped by her husband or humiliated when he flaunts his mistresses around and she has no recourse for any of these things. And then basically told to suck it up because at least she's not living in extreme poverty like all the rubes outside of the castle.

Alicent was a willing part of her father’s orchestration to get her the role of the queen, but it's not like if she hadn't gone along with it she would have been free to marry or mess around with whoever she wanted. In all likelihood, she was always going to be married off to whoever her father thought would benefit him the most, and the odds that he would be both physically attractive and have a good personality weren't great. She settled for what she knew wouldn't be a bad situation, vs holding out for what had a minimal chance of being better and a much higher chance of being worse.

Edited September 15, 2022 by Tatum

[Constantinople]

So did Rhaenyra invent speed dating?

[paigow]

39 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

So did Rhaenyra invent speed dating?

with occasional Mortal Kombat sessions...

[CeeBeeGee]

On 9/12/2022 at 1:04 PM, jeansheridan said:

And THIS is the humor I miss. Davos the salesman/smuggler. He was such a good hype man for all his bosses. We need a Bronn too. 

Oh God, I loved Ser Davos. Witty, quick on his feet--and his respectful colloquy with Lady Lyanna Mormont, calling her "the lady of a great house" without the slightest hint of condescension. He was so polite and caring with little girls.

15 hours ago, RobertDeSneero said:

I think V thinks D would be a bad influence on R.  He knows D would be as king on his own.  He expects D to try to dominate a relationship with R.  He doesn't want D anywhere near the throne for the good of the kingdom.

I thought exactly the same thing. It wouldn't be an equal balance of power.

[jeansheridan]

On 9/14/2022 at 3:47 PM, paigow said:

Jason Lannister

Okay I give this actor credit. He had the MOST confused look on his face during the 2nd meeting. Either he couldn't follow the conversation or he is meant to look a bit dim. And he is good at making the twins distinct although that is Soap Acting 101. That and playing blind.

[Tatum]

On 9/14/2022 at 9:48 AM, ursula said:

Honestly it's baffling why Viserys still considers her his heir at this point. She has disappointed and embarrassed him, and hasn't shown or done anything to prove she'll be such a great Queen he can overlook convention for her. And he finally has a son. Sure, he'll always love his daughter, but the show's doing nothing to convince me why he's so determined to make her Queen when the alternative is so much easier. 

I wondered this as well. And he seemed genuinely offended in the previous episode that the Lannisters assumed Rhaenyra was always a stop gap/last resort as heir to the throne and not a commitment the king intended to see through.

Honestly, I think part of Viserys just likes to be contrary. He will dig his heels in at this point because everyone expects him to do something different. And pretty much any time anyone tells him directly  to do something, he does the opposite, even if he concedes the advisor has a good point.

[paigow]

He cannot name a toddler as heir... Daemon would likely murder the kid...

3 hours ago, Tatum said:

Honestly, I think part of Viserys just likes to be contrary. He will dig his heels in at this point because everyone expects him to do something different. 

[magdalene]

I just realized that the two Lannisters are played by one actor.  And he looks so familiar to me. I wonder if I know him from Vikings.  And I think I have seen Harwin Strong on an Aussie soap.

[magdalene]

On 9/15/2022 at 2:25 AM, Lady S. said:

Not that Daemon is a feminist so much as a dragon supremecist, which is why he can talk about his own wife in such mysoginistic terms. I wonder how much of his dissatisfaction with her is because she isn't related to him. 

Oh, some of his notions about female sexuality are very feminist for the society he lives in.  For one he is a man who believes that women ought to have sexual pleasure just like men do.

And his loathing of his wife may stem from having her forced on him and not being his choice. I wonder whether they ever actually had sex.

Daemon is such creature of contradictions. He has a lot of swagger but also comes across as very insecure at times.  He has both a large ego and one that seems oddly fragile.

[Roseanna]

On 9/13/2022 at 7:37 PM, Affogato said:

out of curiosity where was this happening specifically? 

The family with many generations living together was usual in Eastern Europe.

Edited September 17, 2022 by Roseanna
adding a letter

[Roseanna]

On 9/15/2022 at 12:25 PM, Lady S. said:

As far as comparing Rhaenyra to rl medieval princesses, I'd just point out that none of them rode dragons or had ancestors that helped their husband win wars of conquest on dragonback. 

Not exactly, but when her husband was away, the noble lady had the same power in their castle/ manor. There were even cases where the wives or widows led the defense of the castle against the attack. Of course their command was nominal militarily, but it was they who decided if the castle surrendered or not. F.ex. in the beginning 16th century, when the regent of Sweden, Sten Sture the Younger died, his widow Christina Gyllenstierna defended the castle of Stockholm against the Danish king, Christian II.    

Also in the epics created on the basis of folk poetry there are strong women leaders, f.ex. Louhi in Kalevala who, although she is married, decided alone on her daughters' marriages and even leads her men in pursuit when Sampo is stolen. 

Reading the original folk poetry, it's clear that before Christianity also women spoke openly about sex: f.ex. in the magic to make women sexually attractive. Whereas Kalevala published in the 19th century is coy about the failure of Kyllikki's marriage with Lemminkäinen, the original poem says: "even in the first night Kyllikki was lacking -", i.e. Lemminkäinen couldn't satisfy his wife.   

[Roseanna]

9 hours ago, magdalene said:

For one he is a man who believes that women ought to have sexual pleasure just like men do.

Not all patriarchal societies deny the woman's right to pleasure - at least in marriage. It was the fault of the Christianity, or at least some Christians got the idea that sex was only for procreation of children but one must not enjoy the act. But in England in the 16th century it was believed that the wife must feel pleasure in order to become pregnant. It was only in the Victorian age when it was believed that "good" women doesn't enjoy sex. But even then this concept was believed mostly by the bourgeoisie, not by aristocracy and lower classes.    

[Affogato]

5 hours ago, Roseanna said:

The family with many generations living together was usual in Eastern Europe.

Sure, ge erally speaking, many places multiple generations would live together. 

but the things you describe are not by definition incest.

They are also fairly extreme responses to infidelity.

And oddly specific. 

Edited September 17, 2022 by Affogato

[Dobian]

On 9/13/2022 at 9:37 PM, KittyQ said:

RE: Matt Smith - He has a quirky look, but I thought he was pretty sexy as Prince Philip on The Crown.

He'll always be Dr. Who to me, had a terrific run in the role.

[Constantinople]

Fun Fact: This episode was originally titled Sex, Lies, and Videotape before the writers remembered that Westeros, you know,  doesn't have any videotape and Sex, Lies looked kind of weird for a title.

[Ceindreadh]

1 hour ago, Constantinople said:

Fun Fact: This episode was originally titled Sex, Lies, and Videotape before the writers remembered that Westeros, you know,  doesn't have any videotape and Sex, Lies looked kind of weird for a title.

I suppose that 'Sex, Lies, and porno tapestries' would have quite the same ring to it.

[magdalene]

I wouldn't drink any tea any Maester gave me. I may sound like a paranoid broken record but are we sure the Maesters are not poisoning Viserys? I know they didn't have antibiotics, etc. etc., but the man is literally rotting away piece by piece. Meanwhile his daughter and his brother are perfectly fine and they share the same blood. 

Something is rotten in the state of blah, blah, blah.

[jeansheridan]

1 hour ago, magdalene said:

I wouldn't drink any tea any Maester gave me. I may sound like a paranoid broken record but are we sure the Maesters are not poisoning Viserys? I know they didn't have antibiotics, etc. etc., but the man is literally rotting away piece by piece. Meanwhile his daughter and his brother are perfectly fine and they share the same blood. 

Something is rotten in the state of blah, blah, blah.

The thing is, how would they benefit? They would swap out a seemingly stable monarch for what? A toddler or a young woman or a vicious brother? The Maesters seem more logical than fanatical.

[paigow]

45 minutes ago, jeansheridan said:

The Maesters seem more logical than fanatical.

Sam Tarly & Jorah Mormont might disagree...

Boss Maester: Go away Ser Jorah.  There is no cure for Grayscale...

Sam: But Chapter 3 of this forbidden text is literally titled 15 minute Grayscale Cure with common pantry ingredients...

Boss Maester: Go away Sam Tarly...

[ybrik]

Well said toddler is the grandchild of the Hand of the King who just happens to be a member of the family Hightower that is the Lords of the land where the Citadel is. Said Citadel where the maesters train and before the Targs invaded was the main seat of power in that region of the Westeros. 

If Viserys were to die right now, Rhaenyra has very little support behind her. She can only hope that the Lords of Westeros will honor their vow for her to be queen but most of them probably think like the Lannisters that it is a matter of when not if Aegon will be named the rightful heir. 

So the maesters may see letting Viserys die now while Rhaenyra is an unwed, not well supported and now scandalized young woman would be better then if Viserys lives longer and Rhaenyra gets her shit together. She gets married and has heirs especially male heirs. Now if she is married with the backing of another powerful family and starts creating alliances there becomes a real decision for the Lords when Viserys dies and he never changes his mind about Rhaenyra being heir. 

Also the maesters would be thinking logically. They are supposed to be men of science and the Targs have magical connections to dragons and are guided by prophecies and dreams. You can see why they may try to overthrow them in this devious way.

Edited September 18, 2022 by ybrik

[millennium]

Pretty boring stuff.   This show lacks momentum.

[Affogato]

I think maybe Viserys wants Aemmas line to rule, inherit the throne. She died in battle, after all. 

[Ottis]

This show badly needs a point, and some urgency. GoT had “Winter is coming.” HoD is basically Downton Abby with dragons and extra violence and sex. It is well done. It just isn’t interesting.

Is succession and political maneuvers all there is to this show?

[paigow]

On 9/17/2022 at 1:00 PM, Dobian said:

He'll always be Dr. Who to me, 

Sounds like something Billy Joel might write a song about...

Whatsamatta wit da dragon I'm riding?

Edited September 19, 2022 by paigow

[Dobian]

On 9/17/2022 at 10:51 AM, Constantinople said:

Fun Fact: This episode was originally titled Sex, Lies, and Videotape before the writers remembered that Westeros, you know,  doesn't have any videotape and Sex, Lies looked kind of weird for a title.

"Sex, Lies, and Puppet Show"

[rmontro]

This is a little embarrassing, but it was so dark I couldn't quite figure out what was going on.  Was there any penetration between Daemon and Rhaenyra?  I don't think so, but there was a moment there where I thought maybe he got in a few thrusts from behind.  Can anyone confirm?

[PatsyandEddie]

18 hours ago, rmontro said:

This is a little embarrassing, but it was so dark I couldn't quite figure out what was going on.  Was there any penetration between Daemon and Rhaenyra?  I don't think so, but there was a moment there where I thought maybe he got in a few thrusts from behind.  Can anyone confirm?

No, there wasn’t. It was Cristen Cole who took Rhae’s virginity.