king of bullshit

Speaking from the show's perspective, it became "possible" in Alicent's eyes only after Rhaenyra's deception. My argument is that the connection between the two makes no sense. I'm not completely sure but you seem to be speaking in general. That it makes sense(for one to suspect their children will be eliminated) from the get-go, even before any act on the part of one friend rousing distrust in the other. That's a subtly different argument that I'm not particularly inclined to get into right now, though I'd still disagree.

The personal aspect is the basis by which we determine how logical it is for Alicent to be taking the political aspect so seriously. To wit: is it logical that Alicent has come to believe that Rhaenyra is in possession of an unbridled greed and ambition for the throne so strong, it overwhelms any affection she ever held for her? (The same Rhaenyra that once expressed(in ep 1) disinterest in her position if Aemma bore a son; stating that the only thing she wanted was to travel the world on dragonback with her best friend, eating cake.) All because Rhaenyra lied about being a virgin and directly or indirectly(depending on how much Alicent knows), effected her father's dismissal? I lean more towards the artistry of the act and as such my judgement tends to be based on performance rather than necessity. To judge: Poise: The ideal is a reaction that is indistinguishable from a genuine one. Her body language evidenced slightly, the fear that comes with being caught. The way she paced away and spoke with her back turned. The way she looked down as if taking time to think. These deduct from her score. Positively, she didn't buckle and held firm; turned the tables by pointing out the weakness of the accusations(that they were based on rumors). Strategy: It was a good tactical decision to partially concede by confessing that she had been with Daemon. A good bullshitter knows when to pull and when to give and how too much of either can lead to increased suspicion. Sophistry: As we say in the biz: technicalities, technicalities, technicalities. Always lean on the technical truth. They're a good fallback. While many will see through it to the lie, many will not as evidenced by the several discussions held here over the matter. There are many additional considerations. As king, I'm disinclined to reveal the metric by which her score is tabulated but she earns a 5.03 on the bullshitery scale(of 1-10). Fairly solid, especially for her age. Most people don't crack a 4. Overall, a promising bullshiter. Here's where I'd be saying: "I'll be following her career with great interest" if it weren't for the fact that 1) I'm about to drop the show lol, and 2) Adult Rhaenyra may have well tanked said career already. The "ruse" with her children is face-palm inducing stuff to any true bullshitter.

If ever there was an understandable lie, it was that one. Rhaenyra stood to lose everything. Both her marriageability status(which she cared about even if she didn't want to get married) and her status as heir. If not in the heat of the moment, with time to calm down, Alicent should have been able to sympathize. And it would be odd for them to ever reach a situation where Alicent is asking for Rhaenyra's word. Most people wouldn't feel the need to swear their friends to abstinence re: murdering their kids; even those with kids that threatened their friend's claim to a crown. Alicent wasn't depicted as being as aware that Rhaenyra pressed Viserys into firing Otto but even if she did, its yet another act that Alicent should have been able to understand with time. He was relentless in trying to overturn her inheritance. So neither the firing nor the lie explains for me, the leap in logic it takes to reach the notion that your lifelong friend is now a threat to your kids. The rationale is literally: my lifelong best friend is capable of lying to me about something that might potentially have grave repercussions for her if revealed, therefore, she must be capable of murdering my children. Any affection I've come to trust that she had for me is somehow now in doubt as well.

How? What would have given Joffrey insight into Criston's state of mind? I don't understand why the idea that Joffrey assumed a parallel state of mind in Criston, given his position and the amount of knowledge he was privy to(that the princess had her own paramour) isn't the primary speculation on Joffrey's reasoning. All given reasons to support the idea that he provoked Criston sound to me like things being read onto the scene rather than anything objectively depicted. How, for example is an objective reading of the scene? Why was he being condescending/lording himself over him there as opposed to neutrally stating something or entrusting his secret to someone that he felt was a kindred spirit who he wanted to put at ease by informing them that they had a brother in arms?

Even in only half a dozen or so odd scenes, the friendship displayed by young Rhaenyra and Alicent was so strong and sweet that their current state of affairs is still jarring. The show has not done a convincing job of depicting a natural deterioration of that friendship. Just because I don't like it doesn't mean I wouldn't have accepted that it made sense...if it made sense. How did Alicent end up convinced that Rhaenyra would murder her kids. That's not a rhetorical question. Seriously, how? Grown up Alicent simply doesn't feel like an older version of the Alicent that was presented in the first few episodes. Maybe the older version of one from an alternate timeline. Am I the only one that thinks Aegon's actor looks like Finn Wolfhard from Stranger Things? …From certain angles?

Not sure I fully understand you so I'll ask for clarification first. Are you saying that the answer to my question is: 'exactly what ended up happening'? I.E., his face being turned into mashed potatoes? That's a reasonable negative reaction he ought to have foreseen as a result of his actions? And it should have been "common sense"?

Why do his intentions have to be noble? They can be neutral at worst and merit no hostility. How? Which potential negative reactions, within the realm of reason, tantamount to screwing everything up for them, ought to have inhibited Joffrey's actions? That Criston would blab is pretty well covered by the reasonable expectation of mortal fear. You don't generally expect people to be suicidal otherwise you'd never drive, or cross the street. That he'd end things with Rhaenyra? If learning that the king consort had a secret lover and was therefore cool with Rhaenyra fucking around as she pleased was a deal-breaker, it would have been pointless for Rhaenyra to make her proposal in the first place. So she effectively laid the bedrock of that (non)assumption on Joffrey's part. Why can't he care about both? Criston is someone he's able to uniquely empathize with.

The existence of their dalliance in spite of those consequences might have led Joffrey to believe (somewhat understandably) that Criston was at least a little like him. And his observance of cuntstruck stares solidified his deductions I guess. He perhaps immediately shared his own secret to pacify the only assumed anxieties he felt Criston might have. I.e. fear of his secret ever getting out and fear of Rhaenyra's new betrothed becoming an obstacle to his and her's continued relationship. Hell, maybe he assumed Rhaenyra had already caught Criston up as Laenor immediately did with him. I can see that train of thought I think. As for the thing about Criston being forced to pull his sword back; if true, it's kind of odd that the show creators assumed we would all just know that without explanation. What are the odds that the majority of viewers instantly understood the disrespect inherent in such an action? I've personally never heard of it and would say that all seemingly contradictory factors that make it difficult to determine a comprehensible account of that entire interaction ought be interpreted in this vein: We simply don't assume that all the parts under discussion are like pieces of a puzzle that form a coherent picture when assembled correctly. Storytellers are just as fallible as anybody else and prone to errors in logic even on works they've arduously refined. The answer could be as uncomplicated as that the scene simply doesn't make sense with everything taken into consideration and not that there's anything in particular we might be missing. That's certainly a possibility I'm open to.

I count among the number of those confused over Ser Criston's sudden actions resulting in the altercation at the end of the episode. Whatever angle I look at it from, his exact reason for killing Joffrey isn't clear and I'm unable to make sense of the widely touted reason that it was due to Joffrey threatening him. What threat? Threats usually proceed in the form of: 'I'll punish you by doing x if you do y'. If we're in agreement that x equals: outing his and Rhaenyra's affair, then what is y? Wouldn't it be the same thing? Wouldn't discouraging Criston from spilling the beans be his aim? How do you threaten to punish someone with the very actions you're seeking to deter? If the threat is that he'll kill him if he ever flaps his gums, that still seems just as circular to me. Criston's life is already forfeit if he ever talks, hence his plea to Alicent to spare him torture in favor of a dignified death immediately after confessing. That sounds a bit like threatening to shoot someone if they choose to run into traffic. It may be that the intent of the writers was to portray it as a threat but it doesn't make sense to me. And whatever mental progression spiraled Criston into public murder was not organically depicted otherwise the moment would not have shocked so many. Re: the debate on Daemon and his wife. I'm inclined to believe he intended to murder her from the outset and wasn't provoked(by her) into doing so. Killing her completed the facade of an "accident" he was trying to create. Broken spine, crushed head, 'oh she must have fallen off her horse.' If he had left her there her people would have found her as they would have come looking not long after noticing that she hadn't returned at an expected time and she would have told them of his role in her current predicament. I'm thinking she goaded him simply because she didn't want to spend the rest of her life as a paralytic not knowing he was always planning to finish. That's what would make sense anyway. Storyteller intent isn't guaranteed to always make sense. I don't think we got any portrayal giving us the why behind her upset state. We saw her react to the realization of Rhaenyra's deception with anger but that's basically the default reaction to finding out a trusted friend lied. When the symptoms of one's state of upset over such a thing are so extreme as to escalate to an apparent declaration of war, a why is warranted, and the only scene in the episode contextualizing her anger is the one with her father. The realization of Rhaenyra's lie led to the realization that she'd gotten her father fired over a lie. It's possible we're meant to think she's also now takes his(Otto's) words about the potential danger to her children more seriously as a result(as some have advanced). That however seems like a pretty big jump to me. It being about Otto actually makes sense. "My lifelong friend is capable of lying to me therefore she's capable of killing my children" doesn't really follow.

Her anger may to be in relation to her father's dismissal as hand. In their parting exchange, he accuses her of making his deposition possible by siding with Rhaenyra and convincing Viserys of her innocence. He seems to believe the reason he was relieved of his position mainly came down to the king deciding his report on Rhaenyra had to have be false. Thru tears, she defends herself by saying she had simply believed her best friend was telling the truth and his(Otto's) informant must have been mistaken.

Man that Alicent sex scene was depressing; and I suppose, deliberately juxtaposed against Rhaenyra's wild night. Her restricted, joyless sex life with a man she has no attraction to vs Rhaenyra's liberating, adventurous romp with two men she's definitely attracted to that results in a hot steamy night with at least one of them. Viserys's: 'you think yourself a cunning man? your designs are obvious.', along with: 'everyone on the council and throughout the kingdom is self interested' led me to think he'd been aware of Otto's machinations all along. And that perhaps he'd also seen through what I've suspected may be a veil of "unencumbered opinion" hiding a selfish agenda in Lord's Strong's counsel. I was really beginning to appreciate that his flaws as king notwithstanding, Rhaenys's "Your father is no fool" sentiment to Rhaenyra in ep 2 rang absolutely true. Then he upends all that by telling Otto he'd only just cottoned on to his "calculations" with Alicent. I mean, I know he was in grief at the time but damn...

Not sure what the argument is but you are sure of its pedantry and that its a straw man. Makes sense. "Nick of time" in common usage is used to refer to "not a minute later". You cut it close but made it right before the deadline. The implication being that you couldn't have arrived sooner but fortune prevented you from being too late. "Not a minute sooner, or later" implies that you had the ability to arrive at any time but chose to wait for the perfect time. As in, Velaryon forces arriving, not immediately after the crabfeeder's troops have been drawn out(their goal) but after they'd been drawn out, chased Daemon to whatever apparatus he'd been hiding under and then surrounded him for a couple of beats without making a move. They could have arrived sooner.

Almost none. He spoke in the opening scene. "Come out and face me Drahar". So he wishes the crown to become wealthier so that he might borrow money from a fatter purse? Hmm. Is that customary? For lords to borrow money from the king? Actually, what constitutes the king's money vs that of the realm's anyway? As in, whatever repository taxes are presumably accumulated in for various financial undertakings on the king's decree. Would that all be under the master of coin's domain? I'm not assuming you must certainly know the answer to all these questions; just kind of wondering out loud...

I thought the Velaryon troops showed up first. I might be remembering wrong but didn't the dragon first make its appearance as a counter measure against the archers? In any case, showing up in the "nick of time" is a different criticism from showing up "not a minute sooner, not a minute later". The latter, when "sooner" is achievable -they'd already met the condition of drawing out the crabfeeder's men before Daemon was surrounded- as it was in this case, is done for drama.

Lord Strong has now twice encouraged Viserys to join houses with Corlys. It may be that he simply has the king and or the realm's best interest at heart but I cant help but wonder if there is an element of self interest at play. How did the crab-feeder and his men survive in the caves? What were their means for procuring food and water? Unless the Westerosis did not pitch camp close enough to the caves to attack them as soon as they came out? So Cristan Cole is totally gonna be Rhaenyra's choice of partner right? I mean what other man has even remotely caught her eye yet? If Viserys honors his vow to have Rhaenyra succeed him as ruler in spite of the kingdom wide pressure and expectation not to, I'm not sure weak is an apropos description of him in any sense.