S03.E05: A Tale of Two Topas

[paulvdb]

Quote

Tensions between Kelly and the Moclans result when she helps Topa prepare for the Union Point entrance exam.

Premiere date: June 30, 2022

[dwmarch]

I think that was some of the Orville's finest work. I know not everyone loves that Orville has toned down the comedy and gone for a more serious tone but I think it really paid off this episode.

Great work in making me simultaneously hate and sympathize with Klyden. Klyden is essentially a wounded child himself and doesn't want Topa to suffer the same pains he did. While I wouldn't be bothered if Klyden launched himself out the nearest airlock I also would not mind seeing him become a little more open-minded if ever we see him again.

I was thinking about how the crew could get around the Fleet's orders and the first thing I thought of was having Isaac do the procedure so I am glad the crew thought of it too. Weird that the entire crew can abandon their duties together for recreational purposes although I guess the ship was parked.

[AnimeMania]

[phalange]

I love Topa and I'm so glad she gets to be whoever she wants to be. Kelly being a mentor for her is perfect since she was the one who was a lawyer on behalf of Topa and Bortus in "About A Girl." Nice that they brought that moment back in the simulator so Topa could see Haveena. Hopefully Topa gets to meet Haveena and the other female Moclans for real one day.

Good riddance to Klyden (though I'm sure he'll back at some point). I know he has some serious internal self-hatred to work out, but his treatment of Topa is inexcusable. Dude, your child is literally on the verge of suicide and you're still going to put your beliefs ahead of your child's mental health? Telling Topa he wishes she were never born is just fucking awful. 

Once again, the Union makes terrible decisions. What are you even fighting to preserve if you put weapons manufacturing over a child's life? At least the Moclans, unlike the Krill, understand that facing down the Kaylon alone would be stupid.

I didn't realize Isaac was never actually an officer since I'm pretty sure he's been referred to as a science officer before, but regardless, Isaac being able to perform the procedure on a technicality was a good solution. 

We finally got to hear Bortus sing! Genuine lol at "That key is too high!" 

[shapeshifter]

It was a good episode, but clocking in at an hour and 15 minutes, why not include enough "previously on" to explain some of the stuff I sure don't recall about Klyden? If the show ever has to be "cut for time" in order to run on some network affiliate of oldies, then they could cut that stuff.

Like: Did Klyden give birth to Topa? Exactly how do they reproduce? 
I can Google. I can even pause the episode to Google. But is that what’s expected of viewers who didn’t rewatch the previous seasons?

Edited June 30, 2022 by shapeshifter

[Zaffy]

Absolutely loved it. 
It was so well made that I never noticed how 75mins passed.
Maybe the best Orville episode? definitely one of the best.
 

[Colorado David]

my gosh i never realized how small charly is. that walk through the temple really shows it. (i'm not a size-ist, just noticing the visual.)

heavy episode, and good writing. emotional bortus was really good, bravo the actor. not a bad singer either.

 

[shapeshifter]

5 minutes ago, Colorado David said:

emotional bortus was really good, bravo the actor. not a bad singer either.

When the crowd thunderously applauded Bortus and Peter Macon as Bortus gestured toward Ty, it seemed Macon was also giving credit to Kai Wener (Ty) for his piano playing.
From TV Overmind 3 years ago (when Kai Wener was 10 years old):

Quote

I began learning classical piano for my role on The Orville for Season 2. The producers wanted my scenes to be as real as possible, so instead of using a professional pianist as a photo double, I had to put my little fingers to work! Although it was very challenging in a short amount of time, I fell in love with it so much, that I am still taking lessons!

https://tvovermind.com/10-things-you-didnt-know-about-kai-wener/

[Colorado David]

emotional Klyden was good also - while we may not like the character, the actor is really good. I was emotionally invested in both his side and Bortus'. 

more thoughtful episodes like this please, I can forego the ship battles in lieu of good drama. (tho if you can pull off both, writers, you will gain many more fans.)

[Chicago Redshirt]

A touching episode that probably hits a little harder against the backdrop of recent real world events. That said, I have notes/questions.

Are we supposed to think that approximately 10-15 years or more have passed since S1, or do Moclans just develop super-fast too?

I can't help think that there would be legal precedent that would guide how to proceed in a case where the two parents disagree about the interest of their child and in particular over such a touchy issue. And that there would be law as to when Union law takes precedence over Moclan law, and fleet law takes precedence over civilian law. Or at the least, an actual court would have to be involved. It seems like there should be recurring lawyer/judge characters on board in most of these sci-fi shows. 

It would have been nice to get some more backstory about how the Moclans came to be mostly all male and how the reproduction works. Also why they have such a staunch anti-women bias (at least among Moclans). With the real-world counterpart, it's rooted in religious belief/tradition. But as far as we know there's not a Moclan religion, and the fact that empirically some percentage of Moclans are born female and numerous other sentient species have two genders suggests you can't really go with the "it's unnatural" rationale. 

Topa's case seemed like it was fairly prominent. So wouldn't she have learned at least some about her case, or at least case(s) similar to hers, from the equivalent of the Union Internet?

It would have been nice to explain to Topa that Klyden was born female too and that informed her way of thinking.

In fact, it would have been nice to have some more scenes in general that were Klyden/Topa, Klyden/Bortus, Bortus/Topa or Klyden/Topa/Bortus. Like it would have been nice for them to deal with Topa being possibly suicidal over her identity. 

Arranging the concert was a lot of extra effort for some level of plausible deniability, and didn't even do a good job of the overall objective. At least part of what they should have been trying to do was to preoccupy Klyden so he couldn't interfere. And for whatever reason, they didn't make sure that Klyden was attending the concert. They also didn't tell Topa in advance so she could get prepared. And by doing things this way, Topa was deprived of Bortus's presence and support just before, during and after the procedure.

I would have liked Klyden to be portrayed a little less cartoonish and huffy. The notion that he was going to physically fight Isaac to get to Topa is sort of absurd. He could have just raised the issue with Ed/Kelly/Claire, and all the plausible deniability would go out of the window.

Maybe I'm not all that observant but I did not see much difference in the physical appearance of Topa as male and as female. 

Isn't it a little anticlimactic for Topa to have undergone this surgery when she could be forced to have her gender changed to male as soon as she's under Moclan jurisdiction, or even if the Union feels the need to submit to Moclan pressure? There's no way we get the happy ending we all want.

The notion of Ed and Kelly defying orders and allowing Topa to choose her own gender despite Klyden's wishes and despite it threatening an alliance that is the only thing holding at bay the Union's extinction is a powerful thing. I think it needed more time and space to explore the ramifications of that.

I wonder what it would be like to watch an episode like this and to be opposed to LGBTQ+ rights. Like do you confront your own beliefs or just write it off as Hollywood being woke or do you say "well, that's different, it's totally natural that some people are female"?

I don't relish the notion of Claire trying to restart her romance with Isaac, especially off Isaac saying, "I didn't try to help Topa. I just was trying to improve how the crew viewed me." 

[shapeshifter]

I basically agree with all of this☝️ post, but also--

1 hour ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

It would have been nice to get some more backstory about how the Moclans came to be mostly all male and how the reproduction works

I'm pretty sure Moclan gender was discussed on an episode over 3 years ago, hence my initial comment upthread about how flashbacks etc. were really needed.
In contrast, Only Murders In The Building season 2 is airing now after a break of just 8 months and had some expertly crafted reminders embedded in the 2.1 episode.
 

1 hour ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Maybe I'm not all that observant but I did not see much difference in the physical appearance of Topa as male and as female.

At first I thought the same, but then decided that was on purpose, perhaps to illustrate that Topa was still the person they always felt like they were. The young actor did a great job of changing the pitch of Topa's voice before and after, which wouldn't likely have been a result of the procedure, but served to note the new gender identity. I wonder if that was the actor's choice or the director's?

 

1 hour ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

I don't relish the notion of Claire trying to restart her romance with Isaac, especially off Isaac saying, "I didn't try to help Topa. I just was trying to improve how the crew viewed me." 

I guess the key to Claire's attraction to Isaac was in her line about how he's the most honest man she's ever met, perhaps saying "man" to indicate that it made him sexually attractive to her as a heteronormative woman, which was then reenforced by her leading him away by the hand.
It was kind of weird to me too, but also thought provoking with regards to honesty about motivations.

Edited June 30, 2022 by shapeshifter

[Lugal]

Holy shit that was good!  Adrianne Palicki hadn't been featured as much in the previous episodes, but she rocked here.  And Peter Macon as well.  It was good to see them actually show what they can do.  And the actor that placed Klyden was good too, even though Klyden was kind of awful.  I won't be sad to not see him again.

Special praise to Imani Pullum (Topa).  It was amazing to see a young guest star carry so much of the episode.  I almost thought it was a different actor before and after the procedure.  I wouldn't mind seeing Topa as a recurring character.

I know the Admirals have a certain amount of realpolitik going on, but have they ever read "The Ones Who Walk Away from Omelas"?

I also found it weird that the entire crew went to see Bortus sing.  I assumed it was everyone not on duty, but, apparently not.

[chaifan]

6 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Are we supposed to think that approximately 10-15 years or more have passed since S1, or do Moclans just develop super-fast too?

Topa went from egg to baby in about 30 days (I can't remember the exact amount of leave Bortus took, but it was around that time), and within the same season went from infant to toddler, and then was getting in trouble in school for not respecting the females (Counselor Deanna Troi guest starred as the teacher) by the end of the season.  So Topa was around 8-10 by the time season 2 ended.

And this is my biggest quibble with this plot line...  At least physically speaking, Topa would be (physically) an adult, at least in human terms, within what? maybe 6 months?  No human doctor would do any kind of physical transition surgery on a child the day after they come to their office and ask to change genders.  So I was expecting there to be some compromise in the timing of the surgery - Bortus saying wait 6 months and then you won't need our consent, Claire saying she couldn't perform the surgery until Topa had X months of counseling, Ed saying they'd be returning to Earth in 6 months and it could be done there without Union involvement, etc.  Because there was the compromise bit with the naked guy earlier in the episode, I thought this would tie in nicely.  And hopefully in that time Klyden would come around, at least somewhat.  If I were in charge, that's how I would have written the episode.  We could close out the season with the Moclan equivalent of a Quinceanera, or debutante ball or bar/bat mitzvah or whatever after Topa's surgery. 

Also, I was waiting for some tie-in to the pyramid dig.  I thought that maybe they'd find that it was a female dominant society, and there would be opportunity for discussion from that end.  But, no, there really wasn't any point of it except to have Charley be an expert at something totally unrelated to piloting a spaceship.  (And just who was flying the Orville while she was down there and in the science lab???)  I feel like this is Bailey 2.0... 

And I've got to admit, with the week we've just had, I was really hoping for a return to the good ol' fluffy Orville of season 1.  Last week's episode was heavy and heavy handed.  I didn't need any more reminders this week of the state we're currently living in.  I think that took some of the enjoyment out of this episode for me.  ugh.

[madfortv]

Normally I watch a show once, but I watched this episode twice. It was very well done and I was drawn into the story, which rarely happens.  The first time I watched the episode, the music reminded me of the music in older movies and I didn't pay much attention to it. The second time through, I was caught up in both the story and the music.

This season was a slow start for me, but it gained momentum.  Now, I hope there is a season 4.

[kay1864]

18 hours ago, phalange said:

We finally got to hear Bortus sing! Genuine lol at "That key is too high!" 

Glad to hear him sing, but damn that line was delivered too harshly.

[kay1864]

4 hours ago, Lugal said:

Adrianne Palicki hadn't been featured as much in the previous episodes, but she rocked here.  And Peter Macon as well.

Macon deserves an Emmy for that scene.

[kay1864]

4 hours ago, Lugal said:

I assumed it was everyone not on duty, but, apparently not.

Yes, it was weird to see the ship so empty. You would think they would need a skeleton crew, especially in engineering, and just take the risk that no one would need to run to sickbay.

Plus we’re to assume that everyone is a rabid fan of Bortus’ singing?

[shapeshifter]

25 minutes ago, kay1864 said:

Yes, it was weird to see the ship so empty. You would think they would need a skeleton crew, especially in engineering, and just take the risk that no one would need to run to sickbay.

Plus we’re to assume that everyone is a rabid fan of Bortus’ singing?

I thought they were there in support of Topa as much as Bortus.

[Meushell]

Topa’a pain made me hurt. I just felt so bad for her, but on the same time, I was glad that she realized that something was off. Klydon was happy enough to be male. I have no idea what it feels like to be transgender or asexual with a chosen sex, but feeling what you were without anything else never sat right with me. Topa was female before the operation ever happened, and that’s how it should be. 

Klydon, wow, I wish we could see him see that he’s wrong. “I wish you were never born.” Klydon, dear, Topa hatched. Okay, I know that doesn’t matter, but I wish it did. Is that petty? I don’t know. Hatched children are loved too. 

Topa. When I episode started, I saw that we were looking at a female moclan. It was was nice to see that it was Topa, being what she what meant to be. I’m also glad that she got what she wanted.

ETA: “Topa was female before the operation ever happened, and that’s how it should be.” I realize the potential of what that might mean. I just meant that a person’s gender cannot be dictated by others. It does not matter what society tells you vs. what you know. You know yourself better than anyone.

Edited July 1, 2022 by Meushell

[thuganomics85]

Interesting that this was the longest episode yet, but it actually flew by pretty quickly.  I guess having a compelling story with some great acting can work better than actual space battles at times!  I also noticed that Seth himself both wrote and directed this one, so I wonder if that factored in as well because for whatever weaknesses he might have every now and then, Seth tends to know what he is looking for and can deliver when the ball is handed to him alone.

Great seeing Topa again and revisited what happened to the character.  Certainly another topical issue since transgenders and the bigotry against them have sadly been happening more and more lately (or at least some are more open about it.)  Glad she was able to make her transition, and while one of her dads showed himself to be the worst, she at least has one well-meaning, if imperfect, dad who will have her back.  And also a great mentor with Kelly.  Hope we see her again.

Klyden really is a fascinating character: someone I find completely loathsome, but then there will be a brief moment or two where I feel a ping of sympathy because I know he was someone who was brainwashed his entire life and truly believes that being female is the worst thing that can possibly happen to a Moclan.  But, of course, when you do have someone like Bortus who can grow and change his views like he has, it's still hard not to find Klyden repulsive.  Probably best for everyone that he left, even though I'm sure it will affect both Bortus and Topa in their own ways.  But even if he does come back and even if he does ever see how wrong he was, I don't see anyway he can walk back the "I wish you were never born" line.  Has to be about the worst thing you can say to your child.

Don't think we've seen this Admiral before.  The actress did a good job, but I wonder if they brought her in because they didn't want one of their recurring "known" Admirals to be the obstacle for this particular situation.

Finally get to hear Bortus sing!

Isaac continues to more than prove his worth (sucks to be you, Charly!)

Great episode.  Special shoutouts to Peter Macon, Adrianne Palicki, and Chad L. Coleman here.

[PurpleTentacle]

So why does the sexpervert Yaphit not have to wear clothes? It's not like he wouldn't fit.

On to the main story: Very good. Again, something I'd expect from classic Star Trek, but something we are seemingly never going to get again from that franchise. Instead we get magic Gorn. -.-

[greekmom]

Super great episode. I really did enjoy it.

I found it interesting how most people took this episode as a trans issues and to me it mimicked a documentary or news story I had heard years ago about a infant boy who had a botched circumcision and his parents were told to raise him as a girl.

https://allthatsinteresting.com/david-reimer

It goes back to the the old debate of what part of us is nature, what is nurture and are we born as tabla rasa!?!?

The only parts that I did find that were mimicked parents dealing with their LGBTQ child was Klyden's "I wish you were never born!" and Bortus' "You are perfect."

I do wish that Klyden found out that it was Bortus and not Kelly who gave Topa the code so she can learn what happened to her.  I do find it strange that Klyden who has been on a Union ship and among Union people (this couldn't have been Bortus' first posting) less conservative than your typical Moclan.  I really do wonder if Klyden's issues are based on the fact that he too had the same feelings (but to a lesser degree) as Topa and when he found out he was born female that it all clicked and he could be unknowingly jealous of Topa having the freedom to choose?!?! (random thought).

The Union's reaction to Topa's situation was typical but I was waiting for either Ed or Kelly to confront the Admiral with "So how many suicide attempts are you willing to allow Topa before you are ok with her having the surgery?" Because we all know that is where Topa was heading. Especially after being told that she wasn't allowed to choose.

I heard grumblings on facebook that the actor of Klyden was let go due to him gaining weight. Anyone know if this is true??

[Chicago Redshirt]

1 hour ago, greekmom said:

Super great episode. I really did enjoy it.

I found it interesting how most people took this episode as a trans issues and to me it mimicked a documentary or news story I had heard years ago about a infant boy who had a botched circumcision and his parents were told to raise him as a girl.

https://allthatsinteresting.com/david-reimer

It goes back to the the old debate of what part of us is nature, what is nurture and are we born as tabla rasa!?!?

The only parts that I did find that were mimicked parents dealing with their LGBTQ child was Klyden's "I wish you were never born!" and Bortus' "You are perfect."

I do wish that Klyden found out that it was Bortus and not Kelly who gave Topa the code so she can learn what happened to her.  I do find it strange that Klyden who has been on a Union ship and among Union people (this couldn't have been Bortus' first posting) less conservative than your typical Moclan.  I really do wonder if Klyden's issues are based on the fact that he too had the same feelings (but to a lesser degree) as Topa and when he found out he was born female that it all clicked and he could be unknowingly jealous of Topa having the freedom to choose?!?! (random thought).

The Union's reaction to Topa's situation was typical but I was waiting for either Ed or Kelly to confront the Admiral with "So how many suicide attempts are you willing to allow Topa before you are ok with her having the surgery?" Because we all know that is where Topa was heading. Especially after being told that she wasn't allowed to choose.

I heard grumblings on facebook that the actor of Klyden was let go due to him gaining weight. Anyone know if this is true??

I don't see how to not take it as an allegory for trans/LGBTQ+ rights. It is the least subtle allegory since that Star Trek episode wherein there were aliens that were half-black and half-white but on different sides was used to talk about the destructiveness of racism.

Bortus is the one who is less conservative than Moclan society, being comfortable married to a born-female Moclan, having been willing originally to let Topa stay female and supporting Topa in converting back to female. Klyden is mirroring Moclan society, seeing only the possible downsides of Topa becoming/confirming female. 

I do wish that Ed and Kelly had been less passive aggressive in their defiance and had asked for permission to speak freely when being dressed down. Like if they had explicitly said, "A Union that is based on sacrificing the rights of one little suffering girl is not worth preserving," that would have been awesome.

I do, though, have to think that in the 2500s there would be some way to get a depressed teen help to avoid suicide or at least minimize it as a possibility. I hate to think that medical science will have advanced to the point where you can regrow an arm and whatnot, but you can't help someone facing the sort of issues Topa did even when made aware of them.

The Klyden actor did seem noticeably heavier, but the notion that he was fired for weight gain seems absurd on his face. I'd sooner believe that Chad Coleman and Seth were dating and he got the boot when they broke up than he was booted over his weight. Chad's not a featured actor, he's not cast for his sex appeal, and in fact we don't know if we've seen the last of Klyden.

[djlynch]

There's a pretty clear allegory between Topa and intersex people, who are born with bodies that are neither entirely male nor entirely female. Their bodies are often surgically "corrected" soon after birth to create the appearance a non-ambiguous body, but my understanding is that they have a comparatively high rate of deciding later in life that the body they were assigned doesn't match the person inside. So it's kind of trans "body doesn't match the person" but also kind of "born this way, still this way, but altered to be something else."

[supposebly]

1 hour ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

"A Union that is based on sacrificing the rights of one little suffering girl is not worth preserving," that would have been awesome.

While I agree on principle, I would have found that way too simplistic. What are you telling the millions of little girls who die in the ensuing war?

I love the underlying idealism of Star Trek but things are never that simple.

And there should have been ways to postpone the issue until she is of age. And get her help until then. 

Edited July 1, 2022 by supposebly

[Jynnan tonnix]

3 minutes ago, supposebly said:

While I agree on principle, I would have found that way too simplistic. What are you telling the millions of little girls who die in the ensuing war?

And there should have been ways to postpone the issue until she is of age. And get her help until then. 

Agreed with both of these. Sometimes individuals WILL have to suffer for the greater good. It's unfortunate, but unavoidable, whether because a society is  less-than-perfect (and what society has ever reached perfection?) or simply because of tragic choices that have to be made as a result of natural disasters and such. 

And, yes, it seems that with the rate at which Moclans grow and mature, Topa should probably have been fairly close to being a legal adult. If she had been assured that she would have support and understanding in the period she had to wait, it seems that just knowing that would have made her life easier. I wonder what the repercussions would have been if the Moclans discovered that the Orville's crew was simply letting her present as female until she could transition. The medical technology seems to be advanced enough that it doesn't take beginning early with hormonal therapy and such in order to make the transition smoother and more visually natural.

I didn't think to really study the makeup on Topa before and after - and maybe I'll go back and see - but it did strike me as interesting that the first thing they focused on after her surgery were her eyes, which appeared to have a subtle layer of eyeliner which I hadn't noticed before, and her hands, on which the fingernails were just a tad longer and more manicured than one might expect of a male Moclan. 

[Chicago Redshirt]

37 minutes ago, supposebly said:

While I agree on principle, I would have found that way too simplistic. What are you telling the millions of little girls who die in the ensuing war?

I love the underlying idealism of Star Trek but things are never that simple.

And there should have been ways to postpone the issue until she is of age. And get her help until then. 

There's definitely a lot to be debated on this point, and I actually am largely with you as to there's a point where standing for a principle is not worth the practical cost.

But to aspire to be the best sci-fi IMO, The Orville should engage in those kinds of philosophical debates to make people think about these sorts of issues, rather than just have a pretty one-sided view of how things should be.

And from a character standpoint, I would respect Ed and Kelly if they took a principled stand rather than kind of cower when their veneer of "we totally didn't disobey orders" was removed.

Implicitly, Ed and Kelly are saying "We don't care if our action prompts Moclus to withdraw from the Union because Topa's well-being is more important than kowtowing to that planet's male chauvinism." I think that they should stand up for that position.

Edited July 1, 2022 by Chicago Redshirt

[shapeshifter]

6 hours ago, PurpleTentacle said:

So why does the sexpervert Yaphit not have to wear clothes? It's not like he wouldn't fit.

 "So say we all"? LOL
I thought of Yaphit not wearing a uniform right after the issue came up in this episode, even before they showed Yaphet.
But now that you mention it, I assume that a uniform would prevent Yaphit from doing his job of slithering into tight spaces to perform tune-ups and so forth. 
This show seems to be "hanging a lantern" on a lot of stuff like this (here, showing Yaphit immediately after the bare butt dress down, er, ah, pants-on order) which I guess is Seth's way of making fun of those of us who would are going to armchair quarterback the scripts with endless whatabouts.

Similarly, with regards to "‘Logic clearly dictates that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few … or the needs of the one’ (Spock and Captain Kirk)" (oriel.ox.ac.uk/sites/default/files/schonle_o_essay_title_3.pdf) ――

3 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

A Union that is based on sacrificing the rights of one little suffering girl is not worth preserving

2 hours ago, supposebly said:

While I agree on principle, I would have found that way too simplistic. What are you telling the millions of little girls who die in the ensuing war? I love the underlying idealism of Star Trek but things are never that simple. 

1 hour ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

There's definitely a lot to be debated on this point, and I actually am largely with you as to there's a point where standing for a principle is not worth the practical cost.
But to aspire to be the best sci-fi IMO, The Orville should engage in those kinds of philosophical debates to make people think about these sorts of issues, rather than just have a pretty one-sided view of how things should be.

――WRT how it was handled in the A plot in this episode: 
Again, Seth/the writers seem to prefer to let the audience hash it out and ask themselves or each other questions rather than tell the audience what to think, likely because that so often backfires.

[Chicago Redshirt]

9 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

――WRT how it was handled in the A plot in this episode: 
Again, Seth/the writers seem to prefer to let the audience hash it out and ask themselves or each other questions rather than tell the audience what to think, likely because that so often backfires.

I'd say quite the reverse. Seth and co. present the actions of Ed and Kelly as The Right Thing To Do(tm) even against the backdrop that it could lead to Moclus pulling out of the Union, and as a result the Union being in no shape to fight the Kaylon threat, and therefore cats and dogs living together, mass hysteria. And in this version, the Union leadership is narrowminded for allowing Moclan chauvinism to dictate the fate of this one person because of the potential cost.

On one level, that's noble. On the other, it's pretty short-sighted.

It also helps that neither the Union nor Ed and Kelly have to pay the price for this principled stand. Would they be as happy with their decision to allow Topa to correct her gender if it really meant that the Moclans left the Union, or if they got fired for disobeying orders? 

[ajsnaves]

I think the point is that Issac doing the procedure gives EVERYONE plausible deniability, including the Moclans. Ed and Kelly and the rest of the Union can say they weren’t involved. They were e joying a lovely concert being put on by Bortus.  Sorry, our bad. And the Moclans can save face by blaming Issac for gaining against their wishes, but stay in the Union by accepting that Ed and Kelly er al were all at a lovely concert and totally had no idea what was going on, on their ship.  It’s a fiction that everyone can live with. 
 

While I despise  Klyden, there were times I empathized with him. I think he truly loves Topa, and wants what’s best for her. And the pain that he has suffered is blinding him to the pain she is currently suffering. I hope someday he sees the light and begs for forgiveness. I would not be surprised if it was not forthcoming though. But it’s his own damn fault. He made his bed, he’ll have to lie in it. 

[blueray]

I finally got around to seeing this episode. Wow that was a really good and powerful episode. Though the first thought I had after the episode ended was that it wasn't sci-fi. Not that is a bad thing by any means just interesting. Like it could have been taking place anywhere, other then the advance medicine (and android doing the procedure).

Anyhow, all the acting was good. And I loved the ties back to earlier episodes. I think Klyden is the way he is because he resents that he never got the opportunity to be female as he was originally. He grew up also feeling that something was wrong and then once he found out, he was forced to keep living the lie. Because of culture believes, he feels that Topa should have had to do the same. Which is very sad. I hope he does come around eventually but I'm not sure he ever will.

[AmigaJoe]

Was there supposed to be a difference in appearance after the procedure? I didn't see any.

[Commando Cody]

8 hours ago, greekmom said:

I heard grumblings on facebook that the actor of Klyden was let go due to him gaining weight. Anyone know if this is true??

I haven't heard any rumors, but it would be realistic and make sense if Klyden gained weight. He is very uptight and would likely stress-eat. 

I never thought the marriage was solid, however when Klyden and Bortus got along, they were hilarious. The time they got addicted to cigarettes, the time they went dancing. Those scenes were great. Honestly, I didn't think they would break up this way. I got the impression that Bortus sort of had an attraction to one of the female Moclans he encountered on the planet. I always thought the marriage would break up over Bortus wanting to be with a female. 

I didn't like the way everything was rushed. Topa found out she was originally a girl. She was mad because she couldn't have the surgery right now. Like RIGHT NOW!  She was a demanding whiney brat about it.  I didn't like the way they disregarded Klyden's feelings.  It was "You're wrong", we're doing it anyway. Topa and Bortus disregarded him.  After raising her and being a stay-in-cabin "dad", they both like don't let the door hit you on the way out. That was pretty sad. Although the "I wish you were never born" was pretty harsh.  I can see why Klyden was so angry. She was his child too. 

I don't know why they couldn't wait till they got back to some planet where they could do the surgery off ship. I think Topa would have held off on the suicide if she knew it could be scheduled in the near future. 

I read a lot of the posts here and I can see I am the detractor who hated this episode. I thought it was poorly done on a touchy subject. To me it was a reflection of teenagers being rushed into transitional surgery without much thought and minimal counseling.  We all know that Topa was born a girl and had been reassigned.  There was no discussion or therapy.  They didn't even give Klyden a chance to come around.  It was just ef you. We are going to do it anyway. Undercover. In secret.  

This really was a terrible episode. 

[DoctorAtomic]

On 6/30/2022 at 12:20 AM, dwmarch said:

I was thinking about how the crew could get around the Fleet's orders and the first thing I thought of was having Isaac do the procedure so I am glad the crew thought of it too.

When the Admiral was yelling at Kelly and Ed; technically, they didn't disobey orders, no? She said Union officer. I don't know if she was keeping up with appearances because she couldn't say, 'nice; you got my message.'

The Farscape in me was highly concerned Topa would take her own life at the end. 

On 6/30/2022 at 3:29 AM, phalange said:

What are you even fighting to preserve if you put weapons manufacturing over a child's life? At least the Moclans, unlike the Krill, understand that facing down the Kaylon alone would be stupid.

I don't think the political reasoning was bad, on the tail end of the Krill election disaster and Kaylon still out there. The Admiral didn't sound like she liked the decision, and she did say they debated for nine hours. Kelly kind of called the bluff in the meeting when she said, they wouldn't be able to face the Kaylon on their own. 

On 6/30/2022 at 5:15 PM, Lugal said:

I also found it weird that the entire crew went to see Bortus sing. 

That's been a running gag though since the show started though hence the plan. As soon as it was announced, the rsvp list was just whipping by! That's why it worked to get everyone there. 

This is probably up there with Kelly's religion for me, and I liked that Klyden even through that in her face. 

Kelly really gets some good, dry line deliveries - I want to be a Commander like you. That's a lot of day drinking. 

[legaleagle53]

3 hours ago, AmigaJoe said:

Was there supposed to be a difference in appearance after the procedure? I didn't see any.

Topa had some curves and a more feminine build and appearance after the procedure. Her fingernails were also slightly longer and manicured to look more like a girl's fingernails.

[greekmom]

11 hours ago, Commando Cody said:

I haven't heard any rumors, but it would be realistic and make sense if Klyden gained weight. He is very uptight and would likely stress-eat. 

I never thought the marriage was solid, however when Klyden and Bortus got along, they were hilarious. The time they got addicted to cigarettes, the time they went dancing. Those scenes were great. Honestly, I didn't think they would break up this way. I got the impression that Bortus sort of had an attraction to one of the female Moclans he encountered on the planet. I always thought the marriage would break up over Bortus wanting to be with a female. 

I didn't like the way everything was rushed. Topa found out she was originally a girl. She was mad because she couldn't have the surgery right now. Like RIGHT NOW!  She was a demanding whiney brat about it.  I didn't like the way they disregarded Klyden's feelings.  It was "You're wrong", we're doing it anyway. Topa and Bortus disregarded him.  After raising her and being a stay-in-cabin "dad", they both like don't let the door hit you on the way out. That was pretty sad. Although the "I wish you were never born" was pretty harsh.  I can see why Klyden was so angry. She was his child too. 

I don't know why they couldn't wait till they got back to some planet where they could do the surgery off ship. I think Topa would have held off on the suicide if she knew it could be scheduled in the near future. 

I read a lot of the posts here and I can see I am the detractor who hated this episode. I thought it was poorly done on a touchy subject. To me it was a reflection of teenagers being rushed into transitional surgery without much thought and minimal counseling.  We all know that Topa was born a girl and had been reassigned.  There was no discussion or therapy.  They didn't even give Klyden a chance to come around.  It was just ef you. We are going to do it anyway. Undercover. In secret.  

This really was a terrible episode. 

I really did enjoy the episode but I totally understand why you did not.

I do find that with sci fic shows that surgery is rushed. In Voyager, there were a few rushed surgeries that one would have expected there would be time. I am guessing that in the future surgery (even major surgery) is viewed as no biggie.

[chaifan]

15 hours ago, Commando Cody said:

I read a lot of the posts here and I can see I am the detractor who hated this episode. I thought it was poorly done on a touchy subject. To me it was a reflection of teenagers being rushed into transitional surgery without much thought and minimal counseling.  We all know that Topa was born a girl and had been reassigned.  There was no discussion or therapy.  They didn't even give Klyden a chance to come around.  It was just ef you. We are going to do it anyway. Undercover. In secret.  

I agree with you that I think it was rushed, but I still thought this was a good episode.  See my post above - there were several reasons for not doing the surgery NOW, and I would have liked Klyden to have had the chance to come around and see Topa's side of things.  But, I have to say that your reason for not liking it is based on bad information - at least in the US, teenagers are not "rushed" into transitional surgery.  It is a very slow process, lots of counseling, lots of thought.  Parental consent is almost always required for anyone under 18, plus multiple sign offs by mental health professionals.  I feel this episode was rushed to fit it into one episode, not based on any real life examples. 

[supposebly]

I think they did ok with the time and the format of the show. I mean Star Trek isn't really known for serial storytelling that explores far-reaching consequences. The mostly procedural format and the lightness of the show don't really lend themselves to exploring bad consequences of some short-sighted decision making in depth.

I still think it could have been done better since there really was no reason to do the surgery RIGHT NOW on this ship! The doctor's suggestion to give up her career was especially idiotic. But I've had issues with her plots overall. Her insistence to fall in love with the tin man who can't reciprocate bothers me especially.

Anyway, back to topic, stop at a planet, get a civilian doctor, do it under the radar and then come back. And get the girl some counselling in the mean time. And maybe family counselling too, so maybe Klyden could explore his own issues as well instead of forcing him to accept it regardless of his feelings. He is her father after all. Misguided, blinded, but also worried about her life in Moclan society. Not every one is built to be a revolutionary or live in exile.

Edited July 2, 2022 by supposebly

[DoctorAtomic]

The other side of that though is that Bortus seems to be a career Union officer. Being in 'Moclan society' isn't really what's going on here. 

I like this classic kind of allegorical scifi. They did a good job with a social issue relevant to our time. I know the show is an homage to Trek, but the messiness is a draw for me that's more in line with Babylon 5. I said before that the best of the best doesn't interest me as much. Over here, we got the XO beating down a civilian and taking about day drinking. I can totally see Ivanova there. 

I don't need it every week. I would have been just as interested if the episode was about the archeological dig. I mean, they broke in and just took everything. 

[Joimiaroxeu]

Ed trying to be a good absentee dad. Trying.

"Unhappiness is better than despair." Ehhh. IMO ignorance is not necessarily bliss, nor a prevention of unhappiness.

Okay, Bortus' first song was quite poignant.

Klyden can FOAD. Who says something so cruel to their child? For him it's bigotry above all, apparently.

Meh, I didn't need Isaac to have used Topa as a manipulation tool. Or for
Claire to have been impressed by his admitting it. (I am aware though that another read on his actions was that he was indirectly helping the crew so he was actually being altruistic.)

Even on a sci-fi show I dislike hearing the word "female" used as a noun. I know the gender distinction was essential to the plotline but I wish Seth had written the dialogue differently.

A couple of states planning to sue Hulu, ban this show, and arrest Seth, coming in 3...2...1... But Disney be like, "Lol, no." /s

My favorite comment from reddit wrt this episode

Quote

Oh look, Bortus, the garbage is taking itself out!

[legaleagle53]

53 minutes ago, Joimiaroxeu said:

My favorite comment from reddit wrt this episode

Oh look, Bortus, the garbage is taking itself out!

That line about the garbage taking itself out made me laugh out loud, @Joimiaroxeu! 😆

Edited July 2, 2022 by legaleagle53

[DoctorAtomic]

53 minutes ago, Joimiaroxeu said:

Klyden can FOAD. Who says something so cruel to their child? For him it's bigotry above all, apparently.

Don't forget, he was born female. There's a whole lot of issues going on here. 

[Colorado David]

while that was a despicable thing to say, i feel bad for klyden. he's a product of his society's ways. can we fault him if he was brought up that way? i was raised in the south, and yeah i am smart enough to outgrow the backwards thinking of the environment i was raised in, but maybe Klyden's teachings took deeper hold.

[marketdoctor]

This episode was full of paradoxes:

It's Emmy gold, without being intentional Emmy bait.  It's too important for that.

It's a science fiction show set in the future that was disturbingly timely.

Chad L. Coleman acted incredibly well as Klyden, and he was the antagonist.

Isaac was the hero, several different ways (disabling traps, providing the macguffin to unlock the climax, etc. )

And yeah, the whole Yaphit doesn't wear pants.  How good does a show have to be that you care about such small details?

Also, mad credit to Seth MacFarlane for giving the Admiral and Isaac some of the best one-liners (like "Tell Topa I wish her well.")

Thanks, this episode meant a lot.

[DoctorAtomic]

That's on point. Also he's resentful that Topa is getting the support he never had. 

35 minutes ago, Colorado David said:

while that was a despicable thing to say, i feel bad for klyden. he's a product of his society's ways. can we fault him if he was brought up that way? i was raised in the south, and yeah i am smart enough to outgrow the backwards thinking of the environment i was raised in, but maybe Klyden's teachings took deeper hold.

[Ceindreadh]

On 7/1/2022 at 12:27 PM, PurpleTentacle said:

So why does the sexpervert Yaphit not have to wear clothes? It's not like he wouldn't fit.

Yaphit's species don't appear to wear clothing as a rule?  Plus I suppose, the naked ensign's bum looked like a humanoid bum, whereas Yaphit just looks like a puddle. 

Honestly, maybe the simplest solution would be to just arrange the schedules so that Ensign nudie wouldn't be on shift on any day that they weren't going to be wearing clothing. 

[Ottis]

Up until this episode reached the point right after the Union said no to the surgery, this was probably the best episode of Orville perhaps ever. Sadly, the show couldn't help itself. But before we get to that, a few thoughts:

• I always knew it would be true, and this episode proved it: Orville is best when Seth is in the background. The actors playing Kelly, Bortus and Topa carried this episode and were excellent. As was Klyden, though his character is annoying.
• The story played nicely off of what had been one of Orville's best prior episodes, and the writing was tight ... right up until after the Union said no.
• At that point, the show could have chosen a number of paths. One could have been to say that everyone on the ship, and Topa, knew she was female, and Topa was free to live her life as a female on the ship - she just couldn't have the surgery, yet. I am not qualified to judge the impact of waiting. I do know, however, that many people in her situation take a number of steps to be who they are before having surgery - and some never have surgery. So it seems a reasonable short-term solution during a war, and a positive outcome for Topa. Then the show could have gone right to dealing with Klyden.
• Another path is that Topa could have done something dramatic and harmful, and the show could have emphasized the cost of not allowing people to be who they are for "societal" reasons.

There are more possibilities. But once the show elected to keep going, the padding began, with a far too long sequence of people walking down hallways to seats, and an unnecessary singing performance by Bortus. Then the self-congratulatory scenes with the admiral yelling at the crew for doing the right thing, and, for some reason, Topa the girl being allowed to do things on the bridge that Topa the boy was not allowed to do. That was all about Seth (and maybe some writers and others) patting themselves on the back.

Just because the show *can* be longer, doesn't mean it should.

The actress playing Charley was once again cringeworthy, especially her first two scenes on the planet. She was better with Topa.

Still, for this show, that was a good episode, IMO.

On 6/30/2022 at 12:00 PM, Chicago Redshirt said:

Topa's case seemed like it was fairly prominent.

Welllll, that's because this is Orville. You're right in that there had to have been many other, similar cases before this on Moclan, but in Orville, the stuff that matters anywhere in the universe, involves the Orville.

6 hours ago, Joimiaroxeu said:

Meh, I didn't need Isaac to have used Topa as a manipulation tool. Or for
Claire to have been impressed by his admitting it.

Agree. More padding, to show they have more running time when they want it.

9 hours ago, supposebly said:

Anyway, back to topic, stop at a planet, get a civilian doctor, do it under the radar and then come back.

That was a possibility, but they addressed why they didn't do it: The risk of Topa being captured was too great. Realistic? I don't know. But the show addressed it.

8 hours ago, DoctorAtomic said:

I like this classic kind of allegorical scifi. They did a good job with a social issue relevant to our time. I know the show is an homage to Trek, but the messiness is a draw for me that's more in line with Babylon 5.

LOL. You've just described Orville. They aspire to be good Trek, and good Trek is allegorical scifi. But they (Orville) 1) don't have the writing/producing horsepower/perspective to pull it off, and 2) they are way too proud of themselves for the positions they take. Orville is like a college freshman/person - lots of ideas bouncing around, and some strong stances, but very little nuance, actual experiences or ability to communicate its view well. Still, that ep was a good try, IMO.

Edited July 3, 2022 by Ottis

[Guest]

6 hours ago, Colorado David said:

while that was a despicable thing to say, i feel bad for klyden. he's a product of his society's ways. can we fault him if he was brought up that way?

I can. That’s not to say he is a completely unsympathetic character but he is making a choice to value his society’s ways over his own child. I absolutely can fault him for choosing to walk away rather than deal with the reality. He never even tried. 

On 7/1/2022 at 6:17 PM, Commando Cody said:

Topa found out she was originally a girl. She was mad because she couldn't have the surgery right now. Like RIGHT NOW!  She was a demanding whiney brat about it.

She was near the point of suicide and just found out she was surgically altered at birth and lied to her whole life*. I wouldn’t call wanting to be in control of your own body being a brat. I also don’t remember any whining. More dejected hopelessness and justifiable anger.

15 hours ago, greekmom said:

It was "You're wrong", we're doing it anyway. Topa and Bortus disregarded him.  After raising her and being a stay-in-cabin "dad", they both like don't let the door hit you on the way out. That was pretty sad. Although the "I wish you were never born" was pretty harsh.  I can see why Klyden was so angry. She was his child too. 

Wasn’t that Klyden’s exact approach since Topa was born? When Kelly first approached them Bortus says they have talked about if and when to tell Topa. This was an ongoing discussion with Klyden repeatedly shutting it down and refusing to listen. Every step it was Klyden’s way or the highway. Ultimately they should disregard his feelings because it’s not his body. How long do you try and talk to a closed door before you give up?

* My one real problem with this episode his that some of it falls flat because of Topa’s accelerated aging. Lines about feeling like something was wrong her whole life or since she was very little are severely undercut by her only being 2 or 3. It also highlights why I have such a problem with Charly. I resent that she and the completely retconned everyone hates Issac plot have gotten time that could have been used to set up this storyline with Topa. The overall plotting of this show really sucks. The episodes feel like they are written by completely separate groups leaving it feeling disjointed. 

[ketose]

On 6/30/2022 at 3:46 PM, shapeshifter said:

I guess the key to Claire's attraction to Isaac was in her line about how he's the most honest man she's ever met, perhaps saying "man" to indicate that it made him sexually attractive to her as a heteronormative woman, which was then reenforced by her leading him away by the hand.
It was kind of weird to me too, but also thought provoking with regards to honesty about motivations.

I think Claire is a robosexual.

On 6/30/2022 at 11:32 PM, kay1864 said:

Glad to hear him sing, but damn that line was delivered too harshly.

But that's the comedy! Bortus goes too far.

[Chicago Redshirt]

3 hours ago, Ottis said:

Up until this episode reached the point right after the Union said no to the surgery, this was probably the best episode of Orville perhaps ever. Sadly, the show couldn't help itself. But before we get to that, a few thoughts:

• I always knew it would be true, and this episode proved it: Orville is best when Seth is in the background. The actors playing Kelly, Bortus and Topa carried this episode and were excellent. As was Klyden, though his character is annoying.
• The story played nicely off of what had been one of Orville's best prior episodes, and the writing was tight ... right up until after the Union said no.
• At that point, the show could have chosen a number of paths. One could have been to say that everyone on the ship, and Topa, knew she was female, and Topa was free to live her life as a female on the ship - she just couldn't have the surgery, yet. I am not qualified to judge the impact of waiting. I do know, however, that many people in her situation take a number of steps to be who they are before having surgery - and some never have surgery. So it seems a reasonable short-term solution during a war, and a positive outcome for Topa. Then the show could have gone right to dealing with Klyden.
• Another path is that Topa could have done something dramatic and harmful, and the show could have emphasized the cost of not allowing people to be who they are for "societal" reasons.

There are more possibilities. But once the show elected to keep going, the padding began, with a far too long sequence of people walking down hallways to seats, and an unnecessary singing performance by Bortus. Then the self-congratulatory scenes with the admiral yelling at the crew for doing the right thing, and, for some reason, Topa the girl being allowed to do things on the bridge that Topa the boy was not allowed to do. That was all about Seth (and maybe some writers and others) patting themselves on the back.

Just because the show *can* be longer, doesn't mean it should.

...

Welllll, that's because this is Orville. You're right in that there had to have been many other, similar cases before this on Moclan, but in Orville, the stuff that matters anywhere in the universe, involves the Orville.

I agree that the two alternative endings you suggested would have probably been better than the actual one. But even within the parameters of the route they chose, they probably could have done better.

For instance, they could have just had Isaac independently offer Topa a chance to perform the surgery without getting buy-in from anyone or trying to get plausible deniability. That would have also made it less awkward/coincidental when Klyden attempted to interrupt the surgery. 

Isaac: Topa, come with me if you want to live...as a female.

Topa: Isaac, it is the middle of the night. What is going on?

Isaac: I am able to perform the gender reassignment surgery that you seek, taking advantage of a shift change in sick bay. But we must hurry.

Klyden (returning to quarters to find no one there): Computer, locate Topa.

Computer: Topa is in the medical bay.

Topa wasn't allowed to do more as a girl than he had been as a boy. The issue was that Topa was gravitating toward Kelly because she was unconsciously seeking her out as a female role model. Klyden disliked the influence Kelly was having on Topa's yearning to be female, and so cut off Kelly's access to Topa. I'm sure that if Topa had asked Bortus or Ed as a boy, he would have been able to do the same order.

I get that the Orville is the center of the universe for this show. But my point was that it seems like Topa's issues about his feeling female should have been addressed at least somewhat by the wealth of information that would be out there about Moclans who feel female. IRL, it's at least somewhat understandable that someone who is trans is not able to vocalize that feeling or find out more about LGBTQ+ people because there are various obstacles to that (religious stigmas, class/regional issues meaning that there can be wide gaps in access to information or the ability to encounter other LGBTQ+ people, etc.) But in the framework of the Union, it seems like such things should be non-issues.