S06.E23: Reunion Part 3

[Ipse Dixit]

"I love Kristen's reactions in this video-another one buried on the cutting room floor. http://www.bravotv.c...ing-double-date"

Zoeysmom or ncsocialworker, whichever of you posted, thanks! That was fun on several levels and more what I expected out of a show about social climbing NYCers... not adolescent-level quibbling about what insult is appropriate.

As devious and beneath contempt as AvIva's attempt to neutralize Csrole's career is, it's also the kind of conflict that's gripping ... the "ew, you're 50!" trope is decidedly NOT. Edited August 14, 2014 by Lisin
fixed quote

[jelliebean]

To be honest I didn't really follow Heather's reasoning about Mother Fucker not being name calling.

I sort of did. Heather could have said "don't tell me anything Aviva because you are lying about my friend and you have issues I can't understand and tell this woman with sausage tits to stop threatening me". Instead she basically told her to STFU about her friend.

[comatoast]

tell this woman with sausage tits

Now now, jelliebean, she has a name. Mindy!

Edited August 14, 2014 by comatoast

[motorcitymom65]

To be honest I didn't really follow Heather's reasoning about Mother Fucker not being name calling.

Clearly it is an insult. I think that she meant it is not the same as other, more specific things one could be called. I don't want to be called a motherfucker, but it is better than being called an alcoholic, a drug user, a racist, or an adulterer.  It's not a specific accusation, but just a general acknowledgement that you are an asshole. 

[diorella78]

Yeah, re: motherfucker. It's an insult, but a generic one. Calling someone 'white trash' or an 'alcoholic' seems to cut more personally, or at least IMO, and why I agree with Heather. 

[Grneyedldy]

I just read Sonja's blog........

Sonja Sonja Sonja

It time to wake up Now

clap, clap

[jelliebean]

Now now, jelliebean, she has a name. Mindy!

LOL! You are a clever girl. 

[MatildaMoody]

OK, did anyone else hear Luann say "now I've heard everything" when Sonja said she was a Christian? Because that was why I thought all of the women were laughing when she blurted that out. I didn't think it even had anything to do with whether or not Sonja was a Christian. I thought it was just the randomness and Luann's comment.

 

Of course, I was also drunk, so I may not have heard correctly. But, I was sure I heard Luann or someone else say that.

[jaync]

I'd rather be 50 and me than be 45 and Aviva, any day of the week. She aged worse this season than a president in his first term.

Pass the plate. All that sourness oozed its way from the inside out.

 

What's Aviva going to do when she reaches fifty, chuck out more than a leg? You'd think someone who supposedly came close to not making it past the age of six would be more appreciative of getting older, and not be such a miserable turd.

 

My most important question --- what the hell is wrong with Aviva's breasts? They look like a square box.

Right? Her bolt-ons looked like they were run over by a cement roller.

[Baltimore Betty]

I saw Harry I did not see George. I would like to wipe them both from memory forever. 

Whew! Thanks, I thought I was seeing things! You could not miss George and his choppers looming in the background,

[slade3]

I also follow Heather's reasoning on motherfucker. If you call Aviva a lying racist, Ramona an alcoholic hypocrite, Kristen a whiner, Sonja a gold digging loon, and Carole an anorexic, you are insulting them with traits that may be true and that are specific to them. You can call all of them motherfuckers and you aren't targeting any one thing that people may have called them behind their backs and are certainly wondering about.

 

I did hear Luann say "Now I've heard everything" and took it to mean Sonja is saying something crazy and inappropriate again. I thought the women were laughing because it's what many people do when they feel really uncomfortable and have been shocked. I think Sonja forgot, or didn't know, there were non-Christians in the room - I thought I noticed her hesitate for a second but chose to act insulted by the laughter rather than feel embarrassed by her offensive comment.

Edited August 15, 2014 by slade3

[ghoulina]

Absolutely. NO one had a problem with Christianity itself. It was more of, "since when the hell is Sonja a Christian???"

[MatildaMoody]

Absolutely. NO one had a problem with Christianity itself. It was more of, "since when the hell is Sonja a Christian???"

I totally agree. I don't think that ANY of the women had EVER heard Sonja refer to herself as a Christian before. Hence, Luann's "Now I've heard everything." and the surprised laughter of the women on the couch along with Andy.

[FozzyBear]

I also follow Heather's reasoning on motherfucker. If you call Aviva a lying racist, Ramona an alcoholic hypocrite, Kristen a whiner, Sonja a gold digging loon, and Carole an anorexic, you are insulting them with traits that may be true and that are specific to them. You can call all of them motherfuckers and you aren't targeting any one thing that people may have called them behind their backs and are certainly wondering about.

I did hear Luann say "Now I've heard everything" and took it to mean Sonja is saying something crazy and inappropriate again. I thought the women were laughing because it's what many people do when they feel really uncomfortable and have been shocked. I think Sonja forgot, or didn't know, there were non-Christians in the room - I thought I noticed her hesitate for a second but chose to act insulted by the laughter rather than feel embarrassed by her offensive comment.

I guess I just think it falls under this tendency Heather and Carole have to be pretty hypocritical about their own behavior. Maybe it's a different type of name calling, but Heather was acting like Mother Fucker is something people walk around all day saying. I'd be offended if someone came up to me and called me a mother fucker.

[Notmuchofacook]

I think Heather was merely giving Aviva a taste of her own irrationality when she (Aviva) argues, i.e.: "Your (Carole's) memoir had a ghostwriter because most people use ghostwriters, but I didn't use a ghostwriter I used a small village of editors who looked over my email and pronounced it brilliant." Okay, I made a lot of it up, but I laughed when Heather refused to apologize for MFer. Aviva won't apologize for a mother fucking thing, so why should Heather? Go away, Aviva.

[comatoast]

tendency Heather and Carole have to be pretty hypocritical about their own behavior

I didn't see the motherfucker part the same way you did, but I totally agree with this part.  While I find a lot to like about both, there is also a lot that grates.  

 

To me, Carol comes across as someone who thinks she is smarter than she is, more humble than she is, and worst of all, nicer than she is. Also, if she were as confident as she claims to be, she wouldn't feel the need to go the petty route no matter what insults were thrown her way.

 

Her last statement in part 3 with regards to what she took away and learned from this season was very telling to me. She said, "And I also learned: don't get me mad."  No need to take responsibility for anything.

Edited August 15, 2014 by comatoast

[SnarkKitty]

Aviva will still win the "I suck at humanity award" no matter how many nits are picked off of Carole and Heather. Holla!

[Baltimore Betty]

Absolutely. NO one had a problem with Christianity itself. It was more of, "since when the hell is Sonja a Christian???"

Would a true Christian have all the spiritual stuff, like the woman who came to Sonja's town house and "centered" her or aligned her chakras or some such thing. And wouldn't Sonja have put Jesus or G-d on her list of employees during her speech at the Le Cirque party? LOL.

[shoegal]

Would a true Christian have all the spiritual stuff, like the woman who came to Sonja's town house and "centered" her or aligned her chakras or some such thing. And wouldn't Sonja have put Jesus or G-d on her list of employees during her speech at the Le Cirque party? LOL.

 

Right!  Surely Jesus is also on Team Sonja.

[ghoulina]

Right!  Surely Jesus is also on Team Sonja.

 

You owe me a new keyboard!

 

 

But seriously, which book in the Bible instructs on how to use your abundance candle?

[walnutqueen]

Right!  Surely Jesus is also on Team Sonja.

 

However, I doubt the reverse holds true.

[Maharincess]

Ah, so the Moaner finally fesses up!!!!!!! She was lying in Part 2 that everything in her marriage was OK. She already had booted da bum out, eh? Why did ya lie to us, Moaner?

http://www.bravotv.com/the-real-housewives-of-new-york-city/season-6/blogs/ramona-singer/ramona-on-her-divorce-from-mario

Btw, Moaner writes "should of" instead of "should have", as Lu did on her Bravo blogs -- like a billion times. Sheesh, can someone give these dames a basic grammar lesson -- please?

Oh my goodness, I gotta go to sleep cuz the thought of liking Moaner is making my head explode.

I think "should of" annoys me as much as people who don't know the difference between your and you're.

I see should of way too much.

I don't feel bad for Ramona. I think the only reason she finally told the truth is because of the backlash of her lies at the reunion.

[zoeysmom]

I think "should of" annoys me as much as people who don't know the difference between your and you're.

I see should of way too much.

I don't feel bad for Ramona. I think the only reason she finally told the truth is because of the backlash of her lies at the reunion.

Here is Ramona's story-the Reunion was taped in June-she threw him out in July:  http://www.bravotv.com/the-real-housewives-of-new-york-city/season-6/blogs/ramona-singer/ramona-on-her-divorce-from-mario

[Maharincess]

I see, she's blaming her lies at the reunion on Mario. Of course she would have spoken freely if Mario hadn't made her not talk about it.

Bullshit. Like I said, I think the only reason she said anything is because of the backlash.

Its always somebody elses fault right Ramona?

[Higgins]

She was trying to save her marriage. Does anybody really think that she didn't have the right to do whatever she felt she should to work on keeping her family together? I think it's ridiculous to have expected her to put the show first. Remember, this was a 20 year marriage.

Edited August 16, 2014 by Higgins

[jinjer]

Sonja said that the psychic on the show was her "christian psychic" which I think is an oxymoron.

[Maharincess]

She didn't give a flying shit about the marriages of anybody else. She had no problem talking shit about everybody else and their relationships but she expects privacy and respect for hers? Give me a fucking break.

Karma and Ramona are both bitches.

I don't feel a bit sorry for her.

I don't condone cheating but in this case, I understand it.

Edited August 16, 2014 by Maharincess

[diorella78]

I think there's a difference in being able to answer Andy's marriage questions in a mature and coherent way.....and the way Moner went batshit crazy about it. Someone protested way too much. She knew what was coming. As the saying goes, Denial isn't just a river in Egypt. But what Ramona could have said to deflect Andy and come across as reflective and mature has been discussed already (in her thread especially). 

[Olive]

I also follow Heather's reasoning on motherfucker. If you call Aviva a lying racist, Ramona an alcoholic hypocrite, Kristen a whiner, Sonja a gold digging loon, and Carole an anorexic, you are insulting them with traits that may be true and that are specific to them. You can call all of them motherfuckers and you aren't targeting any one thing that people may have called them behind their backs and are certainly wondering about.

 

I did hear Luann say "Now I've heard everything" and took it to mean Sonja is saying something crazy and inappropriate again. I thought the women were laughing because it's what many people do when they feel really uncomfortable and have been shocked. I think Sonja forgot, or didn't know, there were non-Christians in the room - I thought I noticed her hesitate for a second but chose to act insulted by the laughter rather than feel embarrassed by her offensive comment.

Why is it offensive and inappropriate to call yourself a Christian in the presence of non-Christians?

[comatoast]

Aviva will still win the "I suck at humanity award" no matter how many nits are picked off of Carole and Heather. Holla!

No question Aviva "sucks at humanity." However, as two women who act like they are so above Aviva's behavior, why would they want to just suck less at humanity than Aviva, instead of acknowledging their own bad behavior, taking responsibility for it, changing it, and proving how much better they really are?

 

It's not a matter of simply picking off nits when expressing opinions about the different standards Heather and Carol seem to have when it comes to the way they behave as opposed to the way others behave. It's a matter of looking for consistency in a person's character.

Edited August 16, 2014 by comatoast

[MatildaMoody]

No question Aviva "sucks at humanity." However, as two women who act like they are so above Aviva's behavior, why would they want to just suck less at humanity than Aviva, instead of acknowledging their own bad behavior, taking responsibility for it, changing it, and proving how much better they really are?

 

It's not a matter of simply picking off nits when expressing opinions about the different standards Heather and Carol seem to have when it comes to the way they behave as opposed to the way others behave. It's a matter of looking for consistency in a person's character.

I think my confusion comes from the fact that ANYONE and EVERYONE has the right to act above Aviva's behavior. I personally believe that she is only behaving the way that she does for the cameras. Unless she actually is afflicted with some type of mental issue or illness, her behavior makes absolutely no sense. 

 

She LOVED Carole's work and found it inspirational. Then, she said that Carole didn't actually write her book and had no right to tell the story anyway. She thought that Heather was a strong woman and admired the way she stood up to Ramona. Then, she said she would only take Heather's advice if she wanted to hear about fat binding pantyhose. 

 

She made no effort to reach out to the two women who supported her throughout her first season, but suddenly became BFF's with the two women she went out of her way to eviscerate that same season.

 

If it is truly a matter of looking for consistency in one's character, where is Aviva's consistency? And, how have Carole and Heather not been consistent? They supported Aviva when no one else did. And when it appeared that she cut ties with them until filming commenced, they were noticeably cool towards her. And when she went on the warpath against them, they circled the wagons and protected themselves and each other. 

 

Carole was able to actually acknowledge that in hindsight she should not have said anything about a ghostwriter (even though they had previously discussed it). Where was Aviva's acknowledgement of ANY of her behavior?

 

In the end, all of the women have a persona for the camera that they want to portray. The difference is that they still give a real enough part of themselves to make me want to invest in them. Everything that Aviva does is for the cameras - not even for the show, just for the cameras. How can any of them NOT believe that they are above her? How can any of us as members of the audience not believe that we are above her? Even those of us from the hood or the ghetto?

 

And just so you know, I grew up in the "hood" and it is a lot more civilized than anything Aviva has said or represented in her two seasons on this show.

Edited August 16, 2014 by MatildaMoody

[jinjer]

Why is it offensive and inappropriate to call yourself a Christian in the presence of non-Christians?

I think it may be considered offensive because it may imply that the ability to forgive is limited to Christians?  Just throwing it out there.

[Bossa Nova]

 

 

Why is it offensive and inappropriate to call yourself a Christian in the presence of non-Christians?

I think it may be considered offensive because it may imply that the ability to forgive is limited to Christians?  Just throwing it out there.

Yes. It's a Christian supremacy thing.

[Higgins]

Bossa Nova, on 16 Aug 2014 - 09:42 AM, said:

Yes. It's a Christian supremacy thing.

 

 

Except she didn't say that. You are putting words in her mouth. I'm so tired of the thought police. Everybody is constantly looking to be offended. Do we want a society where people are afraid to express themselves for fear of their thoughts and words being twisted to fit a political agenda? I'm over it.

Edited August 16, 2014 by Higgins

[zoeysmom]

Except she didn't say that. You are putting words in her mouth. I'm so tired of the thought police. Everybody is constantly looking to be offended. Do we want a society where people are afraid to express themselves for fear of their thoughts and words being twisted to fit a political agenda? I'm over it.

If Sonja defines herself as a Christian she should be able to express that without the snickering of others.  I don't think Sonja was trying to convey that only Christians forgive or are forgiven.  I think the snickering was because her answer was unexpected. 

[motorcitymom65]

If Sonja defines herself as a Christian she should be able to express that without the snickering of others.  I don't think Sonja was trying to convey that only Christians forgive or are forgiven.  I think the snickering was because her answer was unexpected.

Exactly. I think they snickered because this was all news to them. Sonja and Lu have been friends for a long time. Most folks I know who call themselves Christians don't keep this a big secret for years. Yes, some are much more private than others. Some don't announce it like others do, but despite what Sonja said at the reunion, she is not a private person. She puts her sexuality front and center, and she is open in her support for the LGBT community (even though she didn't know what LGBT stood for). She has told us what her beliefs are, so to keep this Christian business from folks seems weird.

And yes, in my mind some folks might see it as a Christian Supremecy deal, but that doesn't negate Sonja's right to say whatever she wants. It also doesn't negate anyone else's right to have an opinion about what she said. That is the great thing about free speech. But Sonja probably knows all about that if she is actually a Christian. She would know that she has probably been judged by other Christians for her very vocal support of the LGBT community by people of her faith. Not to say that this is the case just with Christians or that all Christains share this bigotry, but they are certainly right up there in front.

[Higgins]

You're correct it doesn't negate the right of people to interpret her comments the way they chose however; There is a movement that uses people's comments to further an agenda and to try and twist people's thoughts and words to silence them in fear of a manufactured backlash. It happens all the time and it is dangerous.

Edited August 16, 2014 by Higgins

[Olive]

Yes. It's a Christian supremacy thing.

That is BS.  It's no secret that forgiveness is major theme in Christianity, much like family is a theme in the Mormon faith and the redemption of Israel is a theme in Judaism.  And the OP said that it was inappropriate for Sonja to mention her Christianity in front of non-Christians, which is an offensive statement to make.  Is Andy not allowed to name his faith because there are non-Jews in the room?  What if someone is atheist, can he or she not express that because there are people of faith in the room?  BS.

[Lisin]

I'm pretty sure the only reason people were snickering at Sonja's "I'm a Christian" comment was because it was the first they had heard of it. She could have said "I'm a Buddhist" or something and it would have elicited the same response. I don't think there's much more to read into it. It was just another wacky outburst by Sonja that no one was expecting. 

[Higgins]

I'm pretty sure the only reason people were snickering at Sonja's "I'm a Christian" comment was because it was the first they had heard of it. She could have said "I'm a Buddhist" or something and it would have elicited the same response. I don't think there's much more to read into it. It was just another wacky outburst by Sonja that no one was expecting. 

Right, and that was fine. But now she is being accused of being a Christian Supremacist all because she said she forgives because she is Christian.

[technorebel]

If Sonja defines herself as a Christian she should be able to express that without the snickering of others.  I don't think Sonja was trying to convey that only Christians forgive or are forgiven.  I think the snickering was because her answer was unexpected. 

 

Exactly.  Sonja has been shown to be into psychics, card readers, and other new age practices.  I don't think the others meant to be rude by laughing, but her declaration of Christianity was unexpected.  I did a double-take myself, but if she says those are her beliefs, I accept that.  Sonja doesn't have to apologize to anyone for saying it.

[Lisin]

Maybe lets cool it on the religion topic for a bit because it seems to be rubbing people the wrong way. 

[technorebel]

At any rate, I find myself worried about Sonja every time I see her on screen.  I have no idea how she's making ends meet, and she comes across as if she refuses to face the reality of her new economic situation.  Surely her salary from the show can't be enough to cover property taxes and maintenances on that townhouse.  Now why I should worry about a reality show character who doesn't seem to worry about herself, I don't know.

[Midnight Cheese]

I am more worried about how far Sonja's going to take her overly inflated lips from here on out: she's giving herself a duck bill.  I didn't think she'd ever go full Priscilla Presley with her use of treatments - simply not done in the circles her ass has been booted from forever, not that she can acknowledge that - but she's well on her way. 

[LotusFlower]

I'm pretty sure the only reason people were snickering at Sonja's "I'm a Christian" comment was because it was the first they had heard of it. She could have said "I'm a Buddhist" or something and it would have elicited the same response. I don't think there's much more to read into it. It was just another wacky outburst by Sonja that no one was expecting.

No mention of religion from me because I don't think it had anything to do with what she said. I think they all laughed for only one reason - it was bullshit. In line with everything else Sonja was spewing all night long, from toaster ovens to P. Diddy and yachts, to the homeless Irish girl writing her tweets, to the Nigerian football team, to her successful branding business, etc., etc.... That's why LuAnn rolled her eyes and said "now I've heard everything."

[Bossa Nova]

Also in the last reunion episode, Sonja said she is able to cover that $7 mil judgement. Although she didn't use the word judgement, but she did say the amount. I wonder how.

 

And her final blog on Bravo. She bragged about the same as some of her parting words this week, her deal cutting, her Sonja in the City events. Huh? Surely if she was doing events, or even trying to launch that business, that would have been featured on this season.  Delusional.  

 

I still think she looked good this season, though. I will give her that. Toned, tanned, a bit slimmed down; her hair and skin looked very healthy and pretty. 

Edited August 16, 2014 by Bossa Nova

[Jezebel97]

Just finished What Remains & as I sat there with tears as I read it all I could think of after was "FU Aviva you vile soulless motherfucker"

[jonesingjay]

Just finished What Remains & as I sat there with tears as I read it all I could think of after was "FU Aviva you vile soulless motherfucker"

 

All I could think was "Carole has a hell of a ghostwriter." 

[diorella78]

Just finished What Remains & as I sat there with tears as I read it all I could think of after was "FU Aviva you vile soulless motherfucker"

I appreciated that book because, as having dealt with a family member who died of cancer, I related to so much to her feelings as well as the "routine" of doctor visits...and waiting for that other shoe to drop, basically. It was very personal. Aviva is truly a piece of shit. But as others have mentioned, the whole thing is ludicrous since last season, she was some super-fan of Carole's work.

[comatoast]

 The difference is that they still give a real enough part of themselves to make me want to invest in them.

I know I haven't referenced the hood or ghetto at all, but I'm sure what you say is true. As for what I quote above, I think that right there is the reason there is discussion about Heather and Carol.

 

Also, I agree with everything you wrote about Aviva, but...I believe Aviva's lack of character is irrelevant to what I'm saying about Heather and Carol.

 

Those who are so above Aviva's behavior do what she is unwilling or incapable of doing, and that is acknowledging their own wrong-doings and changing their own behavior.

 

To stay on topic, I'll go back to one of the examples from the reunion:

 

Carol's "don’t get me mad" statement tells me that she takes no responsibility for her behavior.  Being mad is not a good enough reason to do some of the things she did. Being mad only gives you the right to be mad. Whatever you do beyond that point is your choice and your responsibility. Remember, Aviva was also mad! She lied because she was mad at the non-well-wisher. Whether we think there is a difference between apples and spaceships in why they were mad, it doesn't matter. It's what they did when mad.

 

This isn't about expecting Carol to act like a robot and not defend herself, but if she was truly above the fray, she would have said something like: "I learned that when I'm mad I stoop to levels I usually find deplorable in others; therefore, while I was victimized and hurt by Aviva's actions, I also crossed certain lines I shouldn't have crossed." That's being above Aviva's behavior. Not continuing with petty crap like on her blog.

Edited August 17, 2014 by comatoast