S01.E09: Let the Tournament Begin

[Yeah No]

2 hours ago, athousandclowns said:

Earlier this morning  I did a search on the clothing / wardrobes on cast and an article mentions the  colors were intentional.   I wanted to see the gray draped dress of Bertha . .   It’s interesting to read about the research they did.
The red and white check on Peggy I thought was odd at the time but they found a similar photo of a black woman during time period age.   Of course she’s so pretty so the picture didn’t look anything like what they created for her. Sorry I’m an idiot or I’d include  the link that I read but forgot how I finally arrived on it.  

I saw that article too and almost posted it here.  There has been much criticism of Marian's wardrobe but every bit of it was very intentional.  They wanted to dress her in pastels to make her stand out from the rest of NY society since she was a fresh young newbie that came from more modest beginnings far away from the big city.  They felt she should dress differently and more appropriate for someone from her background.  I'm not saying I think they succeeded at this too well but they did have reasons for doing it.  I'm not sure how I feel about it.  Obviously it hasn't offended me all that much.

Also, regarding Ward McAllister's accent, they did a ton of research for that too, even involved a linguist specializing in Savannah, GA accents from the era and the accounts of McAllister's legendarily flamboyant way of speaking.  A link to the article about that was posted in the media thread.

[Yeah No]

11 hours ago, peeayebee said:

Like others (many others), I had a big problem with the actress playing Marian. Dull, uncharismatic, a blank slate, boring. Are all those synonyms? Anyway, I think the show would have improved vastly had they cast a different actress. I think the Raikes/Marian storyline would have been more interesting with someone else. I didn't think the actor playing Raikes was bad, but I think he lacked chemistry with Marian because she lacks chemistry with everyone. I can believe he loved her, or that he thought he did, but just got caught up in the excitement of society. She seemed to be sleepwalking thru the show.

I think your last sentence sums up why I didn't think Marian showed enough emotion upon being done wrong by Raikes.  The actress was following the script, which in the hands of someone that can convey emotion better would have felt like enough, but because she is so flat, dull, blank slate, boring and sleepwalking it barely comes across as emotion.  She doesn't even have chemistry with herself.

[Roseanna]

9 hours ago, blackwing said:

Of all the men at the ball, why would Gladys automatically have been paired with Oscar?  Just because he was standing there when she walked in after changing?  I would have thought she would more likely have been paired with the guy she was paired with in the quadrille.

You are quite right. Gladys' quadrille partner would naturally asked for her first dance if they were in good terms.

Plus, after all her work Bertha wouldn't have left such an important detail to a chance with whom Gladys danced her first dance in her coming-out bail, but would have arranged it before.

4 hours ago, athousandclowns said:

Earlier this morning  I did a search on the clothing / wardrobes on cast and an article mentions the  colors were intentional.   I wanted to see the gray draped dress of Bertha . .   It’s interesting to read about the research they did.
The red and white check on Peggy I thought was odd at the time but they found a similar photo of a black woman during time period age.   Of course she’s so pretty so the picture didn’t look anything like what they created for her. Sorry I’m an idiot or I’d include  the link that I read but forgot how I finally arrived on it.  

 

1 hour ago, Yeah No said:

I saw that article too and almost posted it here.  There has been much criticism of Marian's wardrobe but every bit of it was very intentional.  They wanted to dress her in pastels to make her stand out from the rest of NY society since she was a fresh young newbie that came from more modest beginnings far away from the big city.  They felt she should dress differently and more appropriate for someone from her background.  I'm not saying I think they succeeded at this too well but they did have reasons for doing it.  I'm not sure how I feel about it.  Obviously it hasn't offended me all that much.

I remember a novel about 1830ies where unmarried society girls wore pastels, whether the color suited them or not.

Generally, the primary intention of the clothes IMO isn't to make the audience say "wow" but to tell about the character's social standing and means, character and taste. In the best cases individual scenes tell also about the character's present feelings and the relationship with the other(s) (do the colors suit to each other or not).

In the same way, the primary intention of home is to tell about the character. Which makes me wonder whether Agnes is really rich or does her home only tell that because everyone knows she belong to Old Money, she doesn't need to show her wealth.

Mrs Astor seems to think differently, at least in her new holiday home in Newport -  but I believe Bertha could easily make a more stylish one. 

[PRgal]

On 3/23/2022 at 11:27 PM, MizLottie said:

I was listening to a podcast and they suggested that maybe Peggy's husband was white, that would be an interesting twist to Peggy's story and maybe why her father was so against the guy.  We really don't know much about him other than he was uneducated and worked at the pharmacy.

Was that legal back then?  To be married to someone of a different race?

[LegalParrot81]

3 hours ago, PRgal said:

Was that legal back then?  To be married to someone of a different race?

Interracial marriage didn't become legal in New York state until the 40's and the entirety of the US in 1967.   My guess,  Peggy's father believed the man was beneath his daughter, being uneducated and his employee.  

[Lunula]

I can honestly say I'm 100% obsessed with this show. I thought the season finale was fantastic on many levels and either wrapped up, or added nuances for next season, to the major stories.

I personally adore Mr. & Mrs. Russell. I love their ruthlessness, ambition and enduring love for one another. So many great moments in this episode; when Lady Astor threatened to destroy Bertha and she replied, coolly, with a proposal of friendship; or when Oscar tried to push Gladys into a waltz with him immediately after the quadrille and she replied (can't remember the exact quote) by saying, "I'm out now and I won't be forced to do anything I don't want to do anymore." (woohoo!); or Mr. Russell blackmailing that guy to come to the ball, just to please Bertha. 

I love the power plays between the various characters, and that even in a male dominated world, the women using what they have to get what they want/need. Aurora and Mrs. Chamberlain coming together to help save Marian's reputation. The mystery around Miss Scott and her son. And don't even get me started on Aunt Agnes - please. So. Much. Good. Stuff. 

I've felt  Marian was the weakest link throughout the season, but I wonder if that wasn't purposely done? We start by seeing her as a doe-eyed, naïve, unsuspecting young woman and it played out the entire season. I can only hope she is a little wiser (and more interesting) now that Mr. Raikes has shown his true colors. I also love the real friendship between her and Peggy. 

Can't wait for season 2. I may even re-watch season 1 while we wait!

[MollyB]

17 hours ago, izabella said:

He's a wealthy, prominent businessman, at the top of black society, and his daughter eloped with a stock boy.  That's the shame he wanted to erase, so she could live a life of wealth and privilege and opportunity, instead of a life of drudgery and being shunned by their society.

I see this and understand it, but couldn't he have taken a different tack?  Like elevating the young man's position, sending him to school to become a pharmacist/chemist so that he could be part of the business.  Bringing him into the business and family so at least he could enjoy his grandson?  Was elopement so bad a thing to do at that time that he had to disown his grandson?

[Yours Truly]

15 hours ago, athousandclowns said:

Earlier this morning  I did a search on the clothing / wardrobes on cast and an article mentions the  colors were intentional.   I wanted to see the gray draped dress of Bertha . .   It’s interesting to read about the research they did.
The red and white check on Peggy I thought was odd at the time but they found a similar photo of a black woman during time period age.   Of course she’s so pretty so the picture didn’t look anything like what they created for her. Sorry I’m an idiot or I’d include  the link that I read but forgot how I finally arrived on it.  

Thanks for that! Didn't even think it would be for a specific reason. I honestly thought that the production was just unaware of just how often Marion is dressed in yellow but now that it seems there's a particular rationale for it during the time period I'm not as annoyed by it. LOL!

[chaifan]

4 hours ago, LegalParrot81 said:

Interracial marriage didn't become legal in New York state until the 40's and the entirety of the US in 1967.   My guess,  Peggy's father believed the man was beneath his daughter, being uneducated and his employee.  

NY never outlawed inter racial marriage.  (Anti miscegenation laws.) 

I don't think Peggy's husband was a different race.  There's been nothing to indicate that, and we've already been given a reason - albeit a rather lame one - for why Peggy's father didn't approve of him. 

[LegalParrot81]

54 minutes ago, chaifan said:

NY never outlawed inter racial marriage.  (Anti miscegenation laws.) 

I don't think Peggy's husband was a different race.  There's been nothing to indicate that, and we've already been given a reason - albeit a rather lame one - for why Peggy's father didn't approve of him. 

Sorry my information was wrong, don't want to create confusion.  I'll be more careful with my responses in the future.  

[PRgal]

55 minutes ago, chaifan said:

NY never outlawed inter racial marriage.  (Anti miscegenation laws.) 

I don't think Peggy's husband was a different race.  There's been nothing to indicate that, and we've already been given a reason - albeit a rather lame one - for why Peggy's father didn't approve of him. 

Lame, yeah, but not unusual.  Heck, my grandmother gave me those vibes too. 

[Roseanna]

3 hours ago, MollyB said:

I see this and understand it, but couldn't he have taken a different tack?  Like elevating the young man's position, sending him to school to become a pharmacist/chemist so that he could be part of the business.  Bringing him into the business and family so at least he could enjoy his grandson?  Was elopement so bad a thing to do at that time that he had to disown his grandson?

Maybe Peggy's father saw this guy has no other qualities than good looks and silver tongue and/or he has used her daughter to get benefits for himself. After all, he had done two dishonorable things: he had married before he had enough means to provide her according to the standard of her home and he had seduced his master's daughter. 

Also, although Peggy told Marian, Agnes and Ada that her father arranged the annulment by making her husband write papers that he was already married, maybe she wasn't wholly truthful to them or did not want to believe her father and this man was really a bigamist.

I find strange that Peggy wanted only to find her child's grave but not reunite with her husband if she loved him so well that she recommended Marian to follow her heart.   

[sistermagpie]

2 hours ago, chaifan said:

NY never outlawed inter racial marriage.  (Anti miscegenation laws.) 

I don't think Peggy's husband was a different race.  There's been nothing to indicate that, and we've already been given a reason - albeit a rather lame one - for why Peggy's father didn't approve of him. 

Also, we already had the story of the robber barron multi-millionaire being victimized by dastardly working people. Do we really want to add some white pharmacist assistant being bullied by a snobby former slave? Yikes. 

[MerBearHou]

Anyone watching Bridgerton?  (of course, you are) I thought it so amusing that the first episode of the new season is titled “Capital R Rake”.  

I am sure Louisa Jacobson is a perfectly lovely person, but to me, the weakness is her bland eyes and bland smile.  There is so little warmth or emotion in both.  

Another weakness for me is the actor playing Oscar — aka Snideley Whiplash.  Zero zero zero charisma — he’s slimey.  

The stars (for me) have been Ada and Aurora.  I wish Peggy’s accent didn’t sound so Southern — I don’t understand that.  Her not-dead baby story hasn’t captivated me at all — I’d much rather watch her career take off.

I did enjoy the season and will be back for season 2, but I have absolutely no emotional attachment to it like I did for Downton.  I just enjoy the amazing sets and costumes, somewhat interesting stories, and the historical timeframe.

 

[Roseanna]

4 hours ago, MerBearHou said:

Anyone watching Bridgerton?  (of course, you are) I thought it so amusing that the first episode of the new season is titled “Capital R Rake”.  

Yes, totally predictable of course, but the main couple had chemistry (even their looking at another).

[chaifan]

10 hours ago, MerBearHou said:

Another weakness for me is the actor playing Oscar — aka Snideley Whiplash.  Zero zero zero charisma — he’s slimey.  

I love Oscar opposite Agnes.  Those are great scenes, for both of them.

But the Gladys scenes, yep, slimey is the right word.  I guess that's what Fellowes is going for (at least from the viewers' perspective), so, mission accomplished?   So I don't see the actor or character as a weakness, I think they're doing what they're supposed to do.  The big problem is that they never showed why Gladys would be interested in Oscar, or that she actually is interested in him, so all the mustache twirling seems to be rather pointless.

Oscar falls into the same category as Gladys for me.  Just like I really hope Season 2 gives her better purpose than just someone to be married off, I'd love to see Oscar get a more meaty plot line.  Let him be devious, but just with a greater purpose than finding a rich wife. 

[izabella]

1 hour ago, chaifan said:

The big problem is that they never showed why Gladys would be interested in Oscar, or that she actually is interested in him, so all the mustache twirling seems to be rather pointless.

I don't think Gladys is interested in Oscar at all.  I think he just had home-field advantage, meaning he befriended Larry to get invitations to their house so he could spend time with Gladys.  Gladys, not being out, only knew Oscar for a while and no one else.  Well, except for her secret boyfriend whom she has totally gotten over in a matter of days.  Gladys will not pay any attention to Oscar now that she's out.

[Maisiesmom]

Well this show kind of grew on me. I wasn't sure if I would like it or not but I found it quite enjoyable. I knew Marion would not run off with Mr. Dickhead-he just  wants $$ no matter how much he proclaimed his love for Marion. I would like to see her matched up with Larry-they seemed to hit it off, he seems very kind, she seems to support his idea of being an architect (sp?) and Bertha and George seem to like her. It would make for some good conversations between Aunt Agnes and Bertha, thats for sure. I really love Bertha and George-they always have each others backs. He might be ruthless and she might be a bit pushy but the actors have good chemistry and I enjoyed them a lot. Aunt Ada really surprised me-she is not as naive as her sister thinks she is. I would like to see Bertha become friends with Mrs. Astor and Aunt Agnes and find her way into the "Old Money" crowd. Mrs. Fane surprised me too-she is a good friend to have. (Plus her hubs is cute)  I hope Peggy finds her boy and continues her career as a writer. Don't really care about Oscar-he's like Raikes-just looking for $$$. The one to watch I think will be Gladys. She's out now and will not be told what to do (hee hee) so her mother will have to keep an eye on her (which I'm sure she will).I really enjoyed the gowns, the jewels, all the beautiful homes and rooms. Very entertaining and hopefully next season will be that way too.

[SG429]

Was chef's French ruse foreshadowed earlier? I may be misremembering the scene when Bannister meets Chef during the butler swap, but doesn't Bannister address him in French and he responds with a non-committal grunt?

[AZChristian]

24 minutes ago, SG429 said:

Was chef's French ruse foreshadowed earlier? I may be misremembering the scene when Bannister meets Chef during the butler swap, but doesn't Bannister address him in French and he responds with a non-committal grunt?

Actually, Baudin responds verbally in French fairly well.  When Bannister says (in French), "I am glad to meet you," Baudin responds, "Bon jour."  Then when Bannister asks if he may look at the menu, Baudin responds, "Bien sur" (Of course).

Indications of Baudin's lack of skill as a French chef are hinted at when Bannister is surprised that they are having hot chicken soup and trifles for lunch.  He infers that a cold chicken soup would be more expected, and refers to trifles as something that would be served in a nursery.

But it's okay if Baudin doesn't know that.  Neither do the Russells.  They are relying on non-classy menus suggested by their "French" chef to make them look classy.  

[SG429]

35 minutes ago, AZChristian said:

Actually, Baudin responds verbally in French fairly well.  When Bannister says (in French), "I am glad to meet you," Baudin responds, "Bon jour."  Then when Bannister asks if he may look at the menu, Baudin responds, "Bien sur" (Of course).

I think that's what struck me a bit odd and stilted. A true French chef stuck catering to these rubes might respond a little more upbeat, in French, to this French-speaking designated hitter. Maybe a little bit of "well maybe I can work with this guy for one luncheon." Instead he responds as a junior high French student, not offering or able to advance the conversation, even with a basic "where did an English butler in NY learn French?"

[Brn2bwild]

6 hours ago, AZChristian said:

Actually, Baudin responds verbally in French fairly well.  When Bannister says (in French), "I am glad to meet you," Baudin responds, "Bon jour."  Then when Bannister asks if he may look at the menu, Baudin responds, "Bien sur" (Of course).

Indications of Baudin's lack of skill as a French chef are hinted at when Bannister is surprised that they are having hot chicken soup and trifles for lunch.  He infers that a cold chicken soup would be more expected, and refers to trifles as something that would be served in a nursery.

But it's okay if Baudin doesn't know that.  Neither do the Russells.  They are relying on non-classy menus suggested by their "French" chef to make them look classy.  

Since Baudin trained in France, it's likely he knows more than junior high-level French.  He would also be knowledgeable of acceptable cuisine for the upper classes there.

Or is the show suggesting that even his claim to have trained in France is a lie?

[AZChristian]

7 hours ago, SG429 said:

Instead he responds as a junior high French student, not offering or able to advance the conversation, even with a basic "where did an English butler in NY learn French?"

Lots of English people speak French fluently, especially in the upper classes.  If Bannister didn't learn it in school, he may have picked it up from his English associates/employers.

2 hours ago, Brn2bwild said:

Since Baudin trained in France, it's likely he knows more than junior high-level French.  He would also be knowledgeable of acceptable cuisine for the upper classes there.

Or is the show suggesting that even his claim to have trained in France is a lie?

I just re-watched the scene where Boudin confesses to George.  As George later told Bertha, Boudin was in the Merchant Marine, left the service in France, started as a dishwasher in a restaurant and got his training in France.  Boudin found upon returning to the States that no one in high society wanted a chef from Wichita, so he created his French persona.  He may have been a good chef, but the menu that Bannister commented on didn't seem to reflect a sophisticated palate.

[SG429]

Yes all of that is fine and dandy, but we're all trying to recollect the breadcrumbs that lead up to these big reveals, aren't we? And for me, my spidey sense about Gordon was tingling during that encounter. YMM, obviously, V.

[AZChristian]

10 hours ago, SG429 said:

Yes all of that is fine and dandy, but we're all trying to recollect the breadcrumbs that lead up to these big reveals, aren't we? And for me, my spidey sense about Gordon was tingling during that encounter. YMM, obviously, V.

Not sure what you mean.

[Affogato]

I liked that, when Larry talks to Marion and then gets into the carriage with George, he tells George that once Marion decides on something she holds to it (I'm paraphrasing) and it occurs to me that this is certainly a characteristic she shares with Bertha. I think George noticed, too, frankly.

I wonder if Marion will be better in season 2 because she will drop the innocence and start taking more control of her life.

[txhorns79]

On 3/21/2022 at 10:11 PM, Straycat80 said:

The ballroom dancing was very elegant. 

I thought the scenes of the dancing were beautifully filmed.  The whole thing looked spectacular. 

[peeayebee]

2 hours ago, Affogato said:

I wonder if Marion will be better in season 2 because she will drop the innocence and start taking more control of her life.

I hope so. At the very least, we should see a change in her behavior since she (hopefully) learned a big lesson.

[mojito]

Quote

If you're going to unknowingly be with a gay guy, go for the more attractive one.

Which one would that be? The old-looking one with the cheesy moustache or the one with no lips?

On 3/21/2022 at 11:06 PM, Ms Blue Jay said:

When Carrie Coon had her hair down I was like Dammmmmmmmn.  She looked so pretty.

I thought the same thing. I don't know the woman from anything, so this was the first time I'd seen her without her hair up. I know some people here think that they guy who plays her husband is so hot, but I'm not seeing it. 

On 3/21/2022 at 11:08 PM, ZeeEnnui said:

I guess one of those chicken feathers from last week got stuck all the way up Bertha's ass because she was really insufferable this week (which is saying something). I struggle here because I love me some Carrie Coon, but I really, really want to see Bertha bitch slapped a little.

 

I thought this was enough. For now.

On 3/22/2022 at 3:05 AM, Roseanna said:

Why did Carrie Coon want to refer to it as the "Middle West" though? Is that what they called the Midwest in 1882 or what an Englishman thinks that what Americans refer to the Midwest as?

Middle West is vague and could include such secondary cities as Chicago, Kansas City, St. Louis. But Topeka?? 

As for referring to the Midwest as the Middle West...that's what the region was called well into the late nineteenth century.

 

On 3/22/2022 at 8:37 AM, larapu2000 said:

Since all but the Peggy storylines were wrapped up in a bow in this season finale, can we start over next season with BETTER plots, BETTER dialogue, BETTER acting, and a BETTER show runner? 

Why? Look at all the criticism of this show here. People will continue to watch shows that they consider bad.  Clearly TPTB don't care if people watch the show for enjoyment or because they like hate watching. It's still being watched. They don't need to change a thing and they'll still have an audience. 

I scanned through about half the comments (this will be around the 278th comment) and saw a lot of comments about the great waltz scene. Was I the only one who saw that Larry and Marion almost crashed into Oscar and Gladys?

So, that was the summer of 1882? Why do people expect Marian to have changed so much from a small town girl to a city girl in such a short period of time? She's got an independent streak, but she's still just a naive small town girl.

I could be wrong about this, but I can't remember ever hearing Marian tell Raikes that she loved him. Not once. I think she merely had a crush on him and imagined a fairy tale future. 

Edited March 29, 2022 by mojito

[sistermagpie]

13 minutes ago, mojito said:

I could be wrong about this, but I can't remember ever hearing Marian tell Raikes that she loved him. Not once. I think she merely had a crush on him and imagined a fairy tale future. 

It seems most people agree she never loved him. She just, for some reason, thought she ought to very quickly marry him.

[Roseanna]

2 hours ago, mojito said:

I could be wrong about this, but I can't remember ever hearing Marian tell Raikes that she loved him. Not once. I think she merely had a crush on him and imagined a fairy tale future. 

I once heard that when actors are asked what ILY means they can say dozens of meanings. So saying or not saying ILY doesn't guarantee anything. After all, Raikes said them more than once.

 

[mojito]

6 hours ago, Roseanna said:

I once heard that when actors are asked what ILY means they can say dozens of meanings. So saying or not saying ILY doesn't guarantee anything. After all, Raikes said them more than once.

Actors' opinions don't  matter. They just recite what they're told. Since when is an affirmation ever a guarantee?

 

[larapu2000]

10 hours ago, mojito said:

Why? Look at all the criticism of this show here. People will continue to watch shows that they consider bad.  Clearly TPTB don't care if people watch the show for enjoyment or because they like hate watching. It's still being watched. They don't need to change a thing and they'll still have an audience. 

Um....because the premise of a show about the Gilded Age has promise and is exciting and there are both real life and fictional inspirations for the storylines and we had high hopes because it was HBO and the sets/costumes are insanely amazing.

I "continued to watch" because I had hope that it would get better.  Narrator: It did NOT get better.

[mojito]

1 hour ago, larapu2000 said:

I "continued to watch" because I had hope that it would get better.  Narrator: It did NOT get better.

Um, but you'll continue to watch. 

[sistermagpie]

12 hours ago, mojito said:

Why? Look at all the criticism of this show here. People will continue to watch shows that they consider bad.  Clearly TPTB don't care if people watch the show for enjoyment or because they like hate watching. It's still being watched. They don't need to change a thing and they'll still have an audience. 

 

I don't think that means they don't care if people are hate watching. Plenty of people involved would want to improve regardless of how big the audience is.

[Affogato]

9 hours ago, Roseanna said:

I once heard that when actors are asked what ILY means they can say dozens of meanings. So saying or not saying ILY doesn't guarantee anything. After all, Raikes said them more than once.

 

Also in real life ‘I love you’ can mean ‘I am in a serious codependent relationship with you and have complex feelings but will feel relieved if I never have to see you again” and “I hate myself for this” and “you seem okay a d I really feel I need to have kids while I still can”.  Also it can mean “you are a good friend” and “you are sexy” and also whatever it means in romances. It is a complex phrase. People often mistake something else for love. It takes practice. 

[Roseanna]

4 hours ago, mojito said:

Actors' opinions don't  matter. They just recite what they're told. Since when is an affirmation ever a guarantee?

 

Well, in this case actors know more than readers or watches who think that ILY means ILY. Yet, people say ILY also when they want from the other sex or money. Abusers can explain their behavior as "love". 

[larapu2000]

3 hours ago, mojito said:

Um, but you'll continue to watch. 

 I will absolutely give the first episode of season 2 a view.  If nothing has changed, I'm out.  

[mojito]

6 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

I don't think that means they don't care if people are hate watching. Plenty of people involved would want to improve regardless of how big the audience is.

As long as people are watching, they get paid. That's what counts most. Quality of content, as much as you want it be better, is secondary to a steady job.

[sistermagpie]

12 minutes ago, mojito said:

As long as people are watching, they get paid. That's what counts most. Quality of content, as much as you want it be better, is secondary to a steady job.

Depends on the person. The ego boost of having people think your show is good would also be pretty good. I mean, we're just projecting on people we don't know. It's equally believable to imagine a showrunner consciously deciding to half-ass it because they think (perhaps very wrongly) that season 2 will attract just as many viewers, or that a showrunner put a lot of work into it and it just didn't turn out the way they thought it should so will continue to try, or that they'll keep some criticisms in mind going forward. Ratings can decline and even hate-watching requires a certain type of engagement that might not last between seasons.

[chaifan]

On 3/28/2022 at 11:23 PM, mojito said:

I scanned through about half the comments (this will be around the 278th comment) and saw a lot of comments about the great waltz scene. Was I the only one who saw that Larry and Marion almost crashed into Oscar and Gladys?

Yes, I caught that, too.  What struck me is that while the main actors did well in the dance scene, everyone else looked sooooo much better.  I have to assume they use professional (or professionally trained) dancers for the background people in those scenes.  You can just tell the difference in how they move. 

[peeayebee]

I didn't catch that. A couple of times I was busy watching Nathan Lane and thinking he was dancing pretty good. (I know he does musicals, but still...)

[Roseanna]

On 3/29/2022 at 6:23 AM, mojito said:

Why? Look at all the criticism of this show here. People will continue to watch shows that they consider bad.  Clearly TPTB don't care if people watch the show for enjoyment or because they like hate watching. It's still being watched. They don't need to change a thing and they'll still have an audience. 

Yes!

[buttersister]

Quote

We'll all be rooting for Larry, though.

As he deserves someone more interesting, energetic, savvy than Marion.

[kristen111]

On 3/22/2022 at 9:53 AM, Yeah No said:

Thanks, that's exactly how I feel about it.  And I personally won't be holding my breath waiting for Marion to start showing some signs of real emotion or trauma over their breakup.  We haven't seen her show any so far so why should she suddenly become more than a two dimensional character?  It's why we're all scratching our heads about both his motives and her reaction.  This plotline wasn't very well written OR acted.

All I know is, if a man jilted me the last second before an elopement, I wouldn’t be able to get dressed up and dance the night away with a smile on my face.  Very poor acting and ridiculous.  This actress has only that one look on her face all the time.    Whatever.  I miss this show already.  There are so many avenues to look forward to.  I can’t wait.

 

[Scarlett45]

On 3/24/2022 at 5:05 PM, izabella said:

He's a wealthy, prominent businessman, at the top of black society, and his daughter eloped with a stock boy.  That's the shame he wanted to erase, so she could live a life of wealth and privilege and opportunity, instead of a life of drudgery and being shunned by their society.

Yup. 

On 3/25/2022 at 10:23 AM, MollyB said:

I see this and understand it, but couldn't he have taken a different tack?  Like elevating the young man's position, sending him to school to become a pharmacist/chemist so that he could be part of the business.  Bringing him into the business and family so at least he could enjoy his grandson?  Was elopement so bad a thing to do at that time that he had to disown his grandson?

Yes he could’ve. If Peggy hadn’t had such complications during the delivery or Elijah (the husband) had more of a backbone and said “no this is my wife, I’m standing by her” he might have done that (begrudgingly). But with Peggy sick and out of it post partum, the man being a weak POS, he saw getting rid of the baby as erasing the entire thing and giving his daughter a fresh start. 

[Scarlett45]

On 3/23/2022 at 6:03 AM, Pestilentia said:

Well, I don't see the hotness in George that some of the rest of y'all are seeing. In fact IMO there is not one hot man on this entire show. Larry is as bland as Wonder Bread, Oscar looks like a live action Snidely Whiplash, Raikes is no bueno, and while John Adams is passable I don't see him being featured in any storylines aside from messing with Oscar. Just think we need some real man candy on this show- men with charm and charisma.

Here's what occurred to me, and forgive me if this is an old white lady talking out of her ass, but- maybe, just maybe.

Maybe after having seen such suffering and families torn apart with zero regard for emotion or love- maybe after a lifetime of seeing that repeatedly one can become desensitized to the wrenching apart of a family. Maybe he had seen it so many times- saw mothers and babies wrenched apart so often- yet recover and go on to have more babies and a good life. Maybe he thought yeah, it's going to hurt her but she'll get over it and go on to have a successful life, a worthy husband, and more babies. Life was cheap, women lost babies all the time and got over it.  The end justifies the means.

I'm not excusing his actions- they are inexcusable. But maybe he thought he was justified in his actions and used the above rationalization to convince himself that he was doing it for Peggy's own good. He had to have had some thought process going on- he's not a stupid man. He was clearly very wrong but I think he thinks he did it for the right reasons. How Peggy and Mrs. Scott are going to deal with him going forward is more interesting to me than the existence of a baby, which as someone mentioned upthread hardly ever makes a show better. Especially a period piece. Maybe a child could serve as an excuse to hire yet another nanny, but we have enough characters on this show so IMO we don't need more. We just need the ones we already have to do something interesting.   

I'd like to see Aunt Agnes describe her purpose in living.  A discussion between Agnes and Ada about their lives, what they do all day, what purpose they serve. And not Agnes' standard issue quips as a reply, but just one good, real conversation that puts Baranski to better use. IMO she is wasted so far and needs something to dig into- IMO some navel gazing on her end would be a good peek behind the curtains of her life. Has she any aspirations? Pet causes? Any interests at all? I'd like Aunt Agnes to be better fleshed out.

No- you’re not just a white lady talking out of your ass (regarding the bolded)- you’re very astute and perceptive. And very very RIGHT!
 

As a black woman I know a LOT of successful black men like Peggy’s father. Even in 2022 there’s an “hardness” to many black men that are able to rise socially and economically, as well as a “if I had to go through it, you will survive it too”. There’s a cultural understanding of and unfortunately an acceptance of traumas as “the black tax”. I can 100% see Mr Scott believing he did the right thing, and that Peggy was young, she would have other babies and she would be hurt but she would get over it. Black women are still expected to just “get over” things and carry on.

Mr Scott also knew that Elijah (the husband) didn’t really love her or mean her well if he would sign the annulment papers so easily, but if Peggy had his son, he would be motivated to stick around. This way Mr Scott was assuring Peggy could start over and marry UP.

Now his wife never would’ve let him do such a thing, and she will never forgive him, I don’t think he realized that if the truth ever came out this relationship with both of them would be ruined. 
 

 I want to see more Audra McDonald next season but I don’t want Peggy to be saddled with a baby. 

[rollacoaster]

2 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

Maybe after having seen such suffering and families torn apart with zero regard for emotion or love- maybe after a lifetime of seeing that repeatedly one can become desensitized to the wrenching apart of a family. Maybe he had seen it so many times- saw mothers and babies wrenched apart so often- yet recover and go on to have more babies and a good life. Maybe he thought yeah, it's going to hurt her but she'll get over it and go on to have a successful life, a worthy husband, and more babies. Life was cheap, women lost babies all the time and got over it.  The end justifies the means.

I'm not excusing his actions- they are inexcusable. But maybe he thought he was justified in his actions and used the above rationalization to convince himself that he was doing it for Peggy's own good.

 

2 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

As a black woman I know a LOT of successful black men like Peggy’s father. Even in 2022 there’s an “hardness” to many black men that are able to rise socially and economically, as well as a “if I had to go through it, you will survive it too”. There’s a cultural understanding of and unfortunately an acceptance of traumas as “the black tax”. I can 100% see Mr Scott believing he did the right thing, and that Peggy was young, she would have other babies and she would be hurt but she would get over it. Black women are still expected to just “get over” things and carry on.

Mr Scott also knew that Elijah (the husband) didn’t really love her or mean her well if he would sign the annulment papers so easily, but if Peggy had his son, he would be motivated to stick around. This way Mr Scott was assuring Peggy could start over and marry UP.

Both of these passages resonated so powerfully with me! Well written!

I would like to raise some considerations regarding Peggy's former husband Elijah.

I don't necessarily take his willingness to sign the annulment papers as evidence of his triflingness. Let's compare this situation to the interaction that George Russell had with Gladys' beau Archie. I mean, Archie was from old money (I think) and from a similar position of power and privilege as George, and he still chose to abscond after George threatened to ruin him. Recall he threatened his stenographer in a similar manner. I think the gap between Elijah and Mr. Scott is much wider from a social and economic perspective. What could a poor, probably educated young man do against a powerful, well-respected, self-made man like Mr. Scott?

I know that nowadays we almost always root for the plucky underdog to overcome against the more powerful, that really wasn't the way things generally worked out in the ye olde timey. The rich, then as now, had so much power over the poor, and the poor had little recourse. Elijah was at a complete disadvantage. Mr. Scott felt no special affinity for Elijah and wouldn't have hesitated to ruin his life. And I'm sure her father impressed on the young man his complete unworthiness as a husband for his daughter. Elijah (and a baby) was just a stumbling block to Peggy's bright future. I don't think either Mr. Scott or George would have suddenly gained respect for either young man if they'd decided to stand up to them. You obeyed or you were crushed. Even wealthy young men like Archie. Especially poor young men like Elijah.

Edited April 3, 2022 by rollacoaster

[Scarlett45]

8 minutes ago, rollacoaster said:

 

Both of these passages resonated so powerfully with me! Well written!

I would like to raise some considerations regarding Peggy's former husband Elijah.

I don't necessarily take his willingness to sign the annulment papers as evidence of his triflingness. Let's compare this situation to the interaction that George Russell had with Gladys' beau Archie. I mean, Archie was from old money (I think) and from a similar position of power and privilege as George, and he still chose to abscond after George threatened to ruin him. Recall he threatened his stenographer in a similar manner. I think the gap between Elijah and Mr. Scott is much wider from a social and economic perspective. What could a poor, probably educated young man do against a powerful, well-respected, self-made man like Mr. Scott?

I know that nowadays we almost always root for the plucky underdog to overcome against the more powerful, that really wasn't the way things generally worked out in the ye olde timey. The rich, then as now, had so much power over the poor, and the poor had little recourse. Elijah was at a complete disadvantage. Mr. Scott felt no special affinity for Elijah and wouldn't have hesitated to ruin his life. And I'm sure her father impressed on the young man his complete unworthiness as a husband for his daughter. Elijah (and a baby) was just a stumbling block to Peggy's bright future. I don't think either Mr. Scott or George would have suddenly gained respect for either young man if they'd decided to stand up to them. You obeyed or you were crushed. Even wealthy young men like Archie. Especially poor young men like Elijah.

No you’re right. Mr Scott may have also told Elijah that the baby died (men didn’t attend births then, the midwife/her assistant could’ve been paid off). He also may have threatened him with bodily harm if he didn’t sign the paperwork. 
 

Many have commented that Peggy doesn’t seem to want to look for her former husband- I can understand that. She may have truly loved him, but have accepted that it wasn’t meant to be. That’s a very different thing than never getting to hold your baby or see where he was buried. It hurts a different part of your heart. 

[Carolina Girl]

The look Mrs. Astor gives McAllister after Bertha makes the “friends” remark was interesting.   To me it had a “I don’t believe this” element to it   
And I do love Aurora .  What could have been an awkward moment between her and Mrs. Chamberlain was almost kind,  with Aurora having the grace and manners to thank the woman she has snubbed for years for receiving her   
And it was rather cute that the season ended almost the way it began — with the two butlers acknowledging each other from across the street