S01.E06: Heads Have Rolled for Less

[RachelKM]

2 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Yes, her interaction with Larry was totally refreshing to me because it seemed like an actual conversation I believed somebody would be interested in. Was there sexual chemisty? Not paticularly, but that's not a bad thing for now. In m and any stories this would be exactly what sets up Larry as the true love--Raikes' sexual allure is part of what's turning Marian's head. She really hasn't ever had much of a real conversation with him--as she herself said.

Yes, this.  I didn't not intend to suggest I saw sexual chemistry between Marian and Larry.  That would be weird since their interactions have been limited to a dog rescue and a brief conversation about his life goals in the open on the street.  But Marian seems more engaged when speaking with Larry. 

2 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Like I said on the other thread, I think Agnes can be wrong and right about him at the same time. He doesn't come across to me like someone who's being dishonest or using Marian like a chess piece. As Peggy says, he doesn't seem to have a plan at all. He just wants what he wants in this moment. He could want something else later. Larry doesn't have any designs on Marian whatsoever, and we already know he's got plans--the type of plans Marian can get behind, too. 

I have the same impression of Raikes.  He's ambitious in an oddly aimless sort of way. And he does seem to like Marian.  There were hints of it in the first episode when he was helping her with her father's estate.  But everything about the way he has courted Marian has a self-involved thoughtless quality to it that I find off putting.  Like he saw her, likes her, and she'd be lovely holding down the place of his wife in however he ascends in society. 

Meanwhile, Marian just seems to have taken him like a cause. She seemed completely nonplussed that he would be interested in her when he brought it up as if, until that moment, she hadn't really noticed he was a man. And she didn't seem more than academically interested in whether it was a good or bad thing that he was interested. It's like she's more wrapped up in her finding a way to pursue the relationship against Agnes's advice than she is in considering whether she's interested in him as a person.

1 hour ago, blackwing said:

Question:  why did Aurora and Bertha address each other as "Mrs. Russell" and "Mrs. Fane" but Aurora and Marian address each other with first names?  Is it because Marian is a younger woman?  Is it because they are semi-friends?  

I've admittedly only half listened to the exposition given as to the relationships of the Old Money crew.  But I noted that Aurora referred to Agnes as "Aunt Agnes."  Since I don't think she's a Brooks, she is likely Agnes's niece by marriage making Aurora nominally family to Marian. I think that explains why she has been sort of designated to help shepherd Marian through society.  She is a relative of close enough age but still a married woman and somewhat senior.

1 hour ago, blackwing said:

I for one find Bertha utterly unlikeable.  I don't see any redeeming qualities in her at all.  The way she preened when she realised that Carrie Astor was in her house.  The way she preened at getting a luncheon with McAllister.  She is a classic user and fake as hell.  I loved when McAllister compared her house to Catherine the Great's house and the look on her face was "who da fuq is dat" and had to be rescued by Aurora.  She is a pretender.

I don't find Bertha unlikeable for a couple of reasons.  First, she's a product of the age she's living in.  Is she absurd with her rules about Gladys?  Yes.  But she's trying to open doors for her children and for herself that are even more absurd.  I don't think she's a great person by any means. But her motivations are understandable.  And she clearly loves her husband and her family.  But she is determined to bulldoze her way into society and it has become rather consuming. 

 

[Hiyo]

Quote

A lot of people have won screenplays that are unknown in television.  

Except he had been working for almost a decade between Gosford and Downtown. He wasn't some newbie.

Quote

Most networks give notes, people like Shonda Rimes talks about the notes they used to get from ABC.  But as a show becomes more successful and or you have a hit...you tend to get more autonomy from the network for creative decisions. 

That might be how it works in the US. In the UK, I think they are given a bit more leeway.

[dmc]

2 minutes ago, Hiyo said:

Except he had been working for almost a decade between Gosford and Downtown. He wasn't some newbie.

That might be how it works in the US. In the UK, I think they are given a bit more leeway.

I honestly don't know about the UK.  Here though yes most networks give notes.  Actually when Netflix came around, they became known as one of the only networks that does not give notes.  

[photo7521]

13 hours ago, Bulldog said:

 

 

Make that a table for three.  Now, why doesn't that butler take off the white gloves and pour us some wine!

Four, and I prefer a nice Red.

[Roseanna]

2 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Yes, her interaction with Larry was totally refreshing to me because it seemed like an actual conversation I believed somebody would be interested in. Was there sexual chemisty? Not paticularly, but that's not a bad thing for now. In m and any stories this would be exactly what sets up Larry as the true love--Raikes' sexual allure is part of what's turning Marian's head. She really hasn't ever had much of a real conversation with him--as she herself said.

Like I said on the other thread, I think Agnes can be wrong and right about him at the same time. He doesn't come across to me like someone who's being dishonest or using Marian like a chess piece. As Peggy says, he doesn't seem to have a plan at all. He just wants what he wants in this moment. He could want something else later. Larry doesn't have any designs on Marian whatsoever, and we already know he's got plans--the type of plans Marian can get behind, too. 

Like I said, love can begin in friendship, too. So I have nothing against Larry, but he needs more action to prove that he isn't just a nice guy which is easy when one is a rich man's son who has never needed to make an effort or make hard choices. Maybe a career is such one?

[RachelKM]

14 hours ago, Shermie said:

14 hours ago, SailorGirl said:

I may be at a table for one, but I'm really enjoying this show.

Table for two; I’m enjoying it too.

 

13 hours ago, Bulldog said:

 

 

Make that a table for three.  Now, why doesn't that butler take off the white gloves and pour us some wine!

 

6 minutes ago, photo7521 said:

Four, and I prefer a nice Red.

I'm not ready to sit down at your table.  But you can find me at the bar sipping cocktails and vacillating between amused, charmed, and hate watch.

[Hiyo]

Quote

But you can find me at the bar sipping cocktails and vacillating between amused, charmed, and hate watch.

Now that would make for an interesting cocktail.

[Roseanna]

3 hours ago, dmc said:

I don’t think this show is at all satirical. Not only is it not satirical but Julian agrees with a lot of the worst nonsense.  I watched him do an interview on how Bertha was right to be concerned about herself and the party instead of the train accident.  Crying doesn’t help anyone…direct statement from writer.

 

2 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

While I think this stuff is stupid, I'm with Fellowes on this one. I just find it irritating watching George suddenly get up on a high horse as if he cares so much about the victims. He cares about his position same as Bertha. It's not like he's sticken over the thought it was his fault they died, he just wants to make sure there's an underling to take the blame. There's a lot of ways that Bertha needs a wake-up call, but if George does start betraying her or whatever I hope he, too, winds up finding out that all the stuff he thinks is just shallow on her part turns out to have the power to bite him on the ass.

That George is worried about his company's survival, doesn't mean that he can't care about offers - or at least he knows that it's good manners to care, especially for a woman who were in that age supposed to been emphatic whereas men were supposed to be rational.

But there is a more important reasons why I understand his reaction: it was Bertha's turn to forgot her little worries and to support her husband for if his company will be ruined, so will her social ambitions.

"Crying doesn’t help anyone…" Well, Peter Morgan seemed to think that the Queen's (at least in the show, faked) tears helped people after mine accident in The Crown. Irl Nicholas II and Alexandra made a huge mistake when they went to the ball after people were killed at Khodynka Fiend in 1896. It's a duty of the public persons to show sympathy, whatever they feel themselves.

[Shermie]

10 hours ago, Cheezwiz said:

13 hours ago, ninjago said:

Marian looks so much like Cindy Brady it's distracting

Yes! I also keep thinking she reminds me a bit of Allison Arngrim - the actress who played Nellie Oleson on Little House on the Prairie.

And Cindy Brady was played by Susan Oleson. Come to think of it, did we ever see Nellie and Cindy in the same room at the same time? Hmmmmm….. Maybe they’re all related to Meryl Streep.

I do wish Marian was played by someone with more charisma. She could still be shy and naive, but have more appeal. And acting skills. Lily James is still who I wish in the role.

14 hours ago, peridot said:

Even though the racist cab drivers were shitty, I'm glad Peggy just said to Marian - "welcome to my life, I have to get to my meeting".  Marian's naivety can be very exhausting to witness.

Marian is one of those people who is oblivious to everything around her. And the type who thinks if something didn’t happen to her, it didn’t happen. You know, the ones who respond about some rapey celeb guy by saying, “Well, I find it hard to believe. He never tried to rape me.” So for Marian, she didn’t experience blatant racism until being with Peggy (racism-adjacent) I guess, so it’s new information to her. That’s what happens when people keep their daughters locked up in the house and shield them from the world.

Edited March 1, 2022 by Shermie

[KarenX]

1 minute ago, Shermie said:

So for Marian, she didn’t experience blatant racism until being with Peggy (racism-adjacent) I guess, so it’s new information to her.

At least this time when she was with Peggy she walked past Bloomingdales without even a glance.

I did see her hail a cab after Peggy’s lesson but I am unsure if that was because she already forgot or if it was because they were traveling on to different destinations.

[sistermagpie]

54 minutes ago, RachelKM said:

Meanwhile, Marian just seems to have taken him like a cause. She seemed completely nonplussed that he would be interested in her when he brought it up as if, until that moment, she hadn't really noticed he was a man. And she didn't seem more than academically interested in whether it was a good or bad thing that he was interested. It's like she's more wrapped up in her finding a way to pursue the relationship against Agnes's advice than she is in considering whether she's interested in him as a person.

Yes, I thought it was pretty surprising when she told Mrs. Chamberlain of all people that she was thinking of "breaking the rules" in reference to what Mrs. C did when, as Mrs. C explained, that was a huge thing that she only did because she knew for sure the love was enough to sustain it.

And yes, Marian did say that she wanted to get to know Raikes just for that reason, but it's still backwards. I doubt Mrs. Chamberlain considered doing what she did before getting to know her future husband.

 

49 minutes ago, dmc said:

I honestly don't know about the UK.  Here though yes most networks give notes.  Actually when Netflix came around, they became known as one of the only networks that does not give notes.  

I think HBO's backed off sometimes too. We'e in the age of the showunner now, so I assume it's pretty different. I don't think Vince Gilligan was being watched like a hawk by the network, for instance, even if they sometimes made demands. (Like making Matt Weiner split the last season into 2 parts).

40 minutes ago, Roseanna said:

Like I said, love can begin in friendship, too. So I have nothing against Larry, but he needs more action to prove that he isn't just a nice guy which is easy when one is a rich man's son who has never needed to make an effort or make hard choices. Maybe a career is such one?

Yes, could be. Honestly, the fact that he's doing that seems really significant given his station and how everyone else is. Raikes' actual ambitions seem more like Bertha's--going to balls and the opera and knowing the places to be seen. Larry actually wants to be an architect.

 

3 minutes ago, Roseanna said:

 

"Crying doesn’t help anyone…" Well, Peter Morgan seemed to think that the Queen's (at least in the show, faked) tears helped people after mine accident in The Crown. Irl Nicholas II and Alexandra made a huge mistake when they went to the ball after people were killed at Khodynka Fiend in 1896. It's a duty of the public persons to show sympathy, whatever they feel themselves.

Bertha seems to understand the need to cry in public, though. And she's there to help George find someone to pin it on. I still do think the society stuff George finds so frivolous might save him--Bertha's connection to Clara Barton is already a good step.

1 minute ago, KarenX said:

I did see her hail a cab after Peggy’s lesson but I am unsure if that was because she already forgot or if it was because they were traveling on to different destinations.

I think in that scene they were actually going to different destinations.

[KarenX]

6 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Larry actually wants to be an architect.

My thoughts jump off from this point. If the Russells were less rich, they would still be sending Larry for an education with the assumption he would work for a living. His conflict is Peggy’s conflict: my career path is not what my father wants for me. Do we know how many students of Harvard at the time were actually there to learn a profession? Larry couldn’t possibly be the only guy there not in the 400.

I think Gladys just wants friends and Larry wants to be interested in work and Bertha is learning from and through her children what society is supposed to be. I know her relationship with Mrs Funes is transactional but I think they are warming to each other personally. Bertha is not boring and the food has to be better.

I was so bummed when they compromised the menu.

I think the servants are all upward mobility minded there, too. I love how they are all learning together. 

[Roseanna]

13 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Yes, could be. Honestly, the fact that he's doing that seems really significant given his station and how everyone else is. Raikes' actual ambitions seem more like Bertha's--going to balls and the opera and knowing the places to be seen. Larry actually wants to be an architect.

Wanting is a start, but it's not the same as doing, not to speak of succeeding. If his father forbids his plan, can Larry resist him? 

[izabella]

12 hours ago, Brian Cronin said:

I like that the show is willing to make Bertha seems downright cruel at times (both her seeming indifference to the train deaths outside of what it means for her society aspirations and the way that she treated Church so poorly). It's a bold choice that I appreciate. 

For me, it's harder to say when she isn't being cruel.  Cruel, indifferent to others, sneering, and fake seem to be her default.  The only people she isn't cruel to, or hasn't sneered at, are Clara Barton (whom she's using for entree into society via the charity ladder), Turner (who knows how to fix her hair so she fits in with society), and Larry (who is probably George's responsibility in that house so she leaves him alone).  Oh, and of course, Mr. McAllister, whom she kisses up to because she wants his approval for society.

I cringed for her butler when she hired Bannister and mocked and belittled Church's abilities while doing it. 

I cringed for Gladys when she noticed her mom had done an about-face on her coming out party...if only Gladys were a bit more clever, she would have realized her mother only did that because Miss Astor was into the idea of her coming out ball, and that her mother prioritizes Miss Astor over Gladys when it comes to decisions about Gladys' life.  But Gladys isn't so bright.  Seems she's already forgiven her mother for running her perfectly nice boyfriend out of her life while still being heartbroken.

Everything about Bertha is cringe.

[BabyBella94]

2 minutes ago, Roseanna said:

Wanting is a start, but it's not the same as doing, not to speak of succeeding. If his father forbids his plan, can Larry resist him? 

He still has ambition no? Larry can be ambitious just like Tom but he just isn't focused that much on society life and actually has a plan.  I believe his father will come around or they will make some sort of compromise. 

[eejm]

Bertha can be fun to watch, but I don’t think I’d want to know her personally.  She’s a rather complex character.  She was an ambitious woman at a time when there was next to no way to express that ambition.  I feel for her on that level and think some of her sharper edges are a result of her frustrations in that regard.  
 

That said, the way she treats Gladys is appalling.  It’s not just that Bertha is holding up Gladys’ debut - Bertha is rubbing Gladys’ face in the fact that because she has not come out she is to be treated like a 5-year-old.  Bertha seems to be punishing Gladys by holding up her coming out but not telling Gladys what she needs to do to “earn” it.  Any independence Gladys exhibits is met with Bertha doubling down on her “you’re still a child” line.  That’s not a parent who wants the best for her child, that’s a parent who is using the child as a pawn. 

[KarenX]

6 minutes ago, BabyBella94 said:

He still has ambition no? Larry can be ambitious just like Tom but he just isn't focused that much on society life and actually has a plan.  I believe his father will come around or they will make some sort of compromise. 

I mean… if Peggy can do it…

I don’t think George cares if Larry doesn’t want to enter the family business but going into architecture kind of seems tied up in serving at “society’s” whim. Needing clientele is not the same kind of career at all. But George loves his children and so maybe the compromise will be something like yes, but non-residential. Maybe skyscrapers! When did those start showing up?

[sistermagpie]

17 minutes ago, Roseanna said:

Wanting is a start, but it's not the same as doing, not to speak of succeeding. If his father forbids his plan, can Larry resist him? 

 

13 minutes ago, BabyBella94 said:

He still has ambition no? Larry can be ambitious just like Tom but he just isn't focused that much on society life and actually has a plan.  I believe his father will come around or they will make some sort of compromise. 

We definitely don't know if he'll succeed or not, but it does seem significant that this is what's going on in his head when he's not onscreen. That seems like something Marian would obviously get behind more obviously than anything I've seen of Mr. Raikes.

[BabyBella94]

Just saw the promo and another kiss between Marian and Tom.....

[Atlanta]

Loves Agnes' reaction when she walked into the great hall of the Russell mansion. 

I'm from Georgia and have lived in small towns and, of course, Atlanta, and please tell me Lane is playing a caricature. 

Love seeing Peggy's continued success. Is she supposed to be based on someone? Did I miss something or do we know why she needed a lawyer?

Still loving Clara Barton.

Can Turner get hired by a family from out of town? If she had a mustache, she'd twirl it. She's too much like O'Brien from DA. She's evil for the sake of being evil. At least Barrow had dimension. 

I like Marian with Larry.

Why did Bertha give fans to her luncheon guests?

In the preview for ep 7, it looks like poor Gladys may finally have her ball. Love that she has a new friend. 

Does Oscar live in the Van Rijn house?

[Cheezwiz]

10 minutes ago, Atlanta said:

Does Oscar live in the Van Rijn house?

This has confused me throughout the show so far - I think Oscar has a residence of his own somewhere, and regularly drops in on his Mother & Aunt in the Van Rijn household. We don't see much of Oscar's home other than liaisons in his bedroom, which is why it seemed a bit unclear on the show.

[blackwing]

26 minutes ago, eejm said:

That said, the way she treats Gladys is appalling.  It’s not just that Bertha is holding up Gladys’ debut - Bertha is rubbing Gladys’ face in the fact that because she has not come out she is to be treated like a 5-year-old.  Bertha seems to be punishing Gladys by holding up her coming out but not telling Gladys what she needs to do to “earn” it.  Any independence Gladys exhibits is met with Bertha doubling down on her “you’re still a child” line.  That’s not a parent who wants the best for her child, that’s a parent who is using the child as a pawn. 

Gladys isn't being punished because of anything she did.  There's absolutely nothing Gladys can do to "earn" her debutante ball.  It's patently obvious that the only reason why she isn't out yet is because Bertha was waiting until they moved into their fancy mansion on 61st Street so people would notice their arrival.  And at the present, Bertha is afraid that nobody would come to the ball.  So Bertha is waiting until her own standing in society is improved before holding Glady's debutante ball.  Purely selfish.

Meanwhile, when Carrie Astor suggested that Gladys do something with her, Bertha's immediate response was "she's not out yet".  But when she heard that it was a get together at the Astor house, Bertha was all for it.  Gladys isn't allowed to go for a walk in the park without a chaperone, but once the Astor name is mentioned, you could see Bertha's eyes just light up.  She is utterly transparent.  

23 minutes ago, KarenX said:

I don’t think George cares if Larry doesn’t want to enter the family business but going into architecture kind of seems tied up in serving at “society’s” whim. Needing clientele is not the same kind of career at all. But George loves his children and so maybe the compromise will be something like yes, but non-residential. Maybe skyscrapers! When did those start showing up?

I think skyscrapers started popping up in New York and Chicago around this time period, the 1880s.  The two cities competed with each other.  New York architects built tiered wedding cake like buildings (with increasingly smaller floors) while Chicago architects build armchair like buildings and sometimes had the "back" of the chair facing New York so it was like the Chicago buildings/architects were presenting their butts to New York.  At least that's what I heard on a Chicago architecture boat tour once.

In any event, the building that the Russell Company in clearly seems to be a skyscraper.  If a skyscraper is considered 20+ floors at the time.

14 minutes ago, Atlanta said:

Why did Bertha give fans to her luncheon guests?

Does Oscar live in the Van Rijn house?

Bertha gave snuffboxes (or something like that) to the men and fans to the women.  If there was a way to present a gift only to Ward McAllister (a monogrammed one) and nobody else, she would have.  But that would look bad, so she had to give gifts to everyone.

As far as I can tell, Oscar has his own place, that's where he keeps John Adams.

[eejm]

12 minutes ago, Cheezwiz said:

This has confused me throughout the show so far - I think Oscar has a residence of his own somewhere, and regularly drops in on his Mother & Aunt in the Van Rijn household. We don't see much of Oscar's home other than liaisons in his bedroom, which is why it seemed a bit unclear on the show.

I think Oscar has a place in a building like this:

http://s-media.nyc.gov/agencies/lpc/lp/2153.pdf

“Bachelor apartments” were pretty common at that time and housed unmarried men of means.  Such an apartment would have had a bedroom, bathroom, and sitting room.  There were no kitchens as the men ate in the building’s dining hall, or at clubs/restaurants.  In the little we’ve seen of Oscar’s place, this seems to resemble the set up.  
 

My guess is that Oscar having John Adams or other male friends over would have been seen as very ordinary.  That obviously works in Oscar’s favor as he can have his boyfriend over and no one suspects a thing.  I don’t think John actually lives there.  Maybe he lives in a similar set up?  Even if John still lives with his parents he would likely have had a lot of leeway as to his comings and goings.  

Edited March 1, 2022 by eejm

[PRgal]

4 minutes ago, eejm said:

I think Oscar has a place in a building like this:

http://s-media.nyc.gov/agencies/lpc/lp/2153.pdf

“Bachelor apartments” were pretty common at that time and housed unmarried men of means.  Such an apartment would have had a bedroom, bathroom, and sitting room.  There were no kitchens as the men ate in the building’s dining hall, a club, or a restaurant.  In the little we’ve seen of Oscar’s place, this seems to resemble the set up.  

Sounds like a fancy university dorm.  RAs at my school often had ensuites (though there was no sitting room....just a room with a bathroom).  Lucky them.  

 

44 minutes ago, eejm said:

Bertha can be fun to watch, but I don’t think I’d want to know her personally.  She’s a rather complex character.  She was an ambitious woman at a time when there was next to no way to express that ambition.  I feel for her on that level and think some of her sharper edges are a result of her frustrations in that regard.  
 

That said, the way she treats Gladys is appalling.  It’s not just that Bertha is holding up Gladys’ debut - Bertha is rubbing Gladys’ face in the fact that because she has not come out she is to be treated like a 5-year-old.  Bertha seems to be punishing Gladys by holding up her coming out but not telling Gladys what she needs to do to “earn” it.  Any independence Gladys exhibits is met with Bertha doubling down on her “you’re still a child” line.  That’s not a parent who wants the best for her child, that’s a parent who is using the child as a pawn. 

I think a lot of it has to do with girls either being children or "out" as women.  I'm not sure if there was really any in between for the wealthy at that time.  Teen culture was really a middle class thing and not truly developed until the 20th century.  

[sugarbaker design]

52 minutes ago, izabella said:

Everything about Bertha is cringe.

Everything is relative, I haven't cringed once.

 

34 minutes ago, Atlanta said:

Why did Bertha give fans to her luncheon guests?

Just the women guests.  NYC can be hot as a bitch in the summer.

[Haleth]

Some thoughts:

You go, Aunt Agnes, for sussing out Armstrong was trying to make trouble for Peggy!  Glad she saw they that immediately. But she believed the gossip about Oscar?  (Good, but why?)

Yikes for Gladys accusing her dad of not being able to stand up to his wife.  And yikes for the argument the Russells had.  First crack?

I was afraid Bannister was going to sabotage the luncheon.  Glad to see he was honorable but ouch for the wrath of Agnes Van Rhijn.  Loved her almost jaw drop when she got a look inside the palace.

Bertha gave the men cigarette cases as gifts.

Marian is a bore and her little girl voice is starting to annoy me.  And I’m coming around to the idea that Raikes is up to no good.  Never doubt Aunt Agnes.

I was reading about Mamie Fish (wackadoodle) and Carrie Astor’s romance over the weekend. I also was reading about Arabella Huntington who certainly must have been the model for Mrs Chamberlain. Very similar story. 

Edited March 1, 2022 by Haleth

[MissLucas]

Ha! We finally got some serious balayeuse action! Thanks Agnes! I loved this score, especially the more whimsical parts for Bannister's scenes. The flower arrangements for the luncheon were amazing, nevertheless I would have grabbed my fan (I collect vintage fans) before making a beeline for the door. I find both hyacinths and lilac nauseating and headache inducing.

As much as I hate to write this: but the trollop was right in her analysis of the Russells marriage (her conclusion on the other hand...). But the show has set up that imbalance for a while now and in this episode it finally came out in the open. And while it was a cruel line I was mesmerized by Carrie C***'s delivery of 'Please just don't be soft' - she sounded pleading, almost vulnerable. Which was an interesting choice. I really want to know more about Bertha's past, there's got to be some major hurt that made her that hard. I'm looking for an explanation not an excuse. And George knows about it and that's why he puts up with her fierce ambition.

Aurora is really working hard to make it up to the Russells. She facilitated the whole luncheon, saved Bertha from the embarrassment of not knowing what Tsarskoye Selo is and then defused aunt Agnes with some help by Marian (who for once managed to read the room). 

Larry finally made himself useful for his sister and reminded us all that Marian has options. Not that she cares until Mr Raikes has her chained to some railroad tracks (figuratively speaking). Hell, even Mrs Chamberlain was all 'Girl, maybe you should listen to your aunt' - before she agreed to offer her house as a meeting place, probably to save Marian ending up in another unchaperoned mess. Not that Agnes will thank her if she ever learns about - which she will.

This episode had three letters of doom: Mr Baldwin's letter to Gladys which set off that row. The letter about Bannister's 'betrayal' and the final letter (okay telegram) informing George that he's being set up. My money's on Church for sending the snitching letter to Agnes. And  the railroad tycoon from the beginning - the one who was strong armed  by George - being behind the scheme to make Georg personally responsible for the crash.

Cynthia Nixon shaking off Miranda Hobbes so easily for a character that is almost completely Miranda's opposite is not such a surprise considering the part that gave her her big screen debut. 

Edited March 2, 2022 by MissLucas

[kristen111]

9 hours ago, blackwing said:

So Agnes was rightly upset that her own butler lied to her and went over to help the "enemy".  If this weren't a TV show, I would imagine he would have been sacked on the spot.  I don't understand why Agnes backed down in the dining room.  Because the almighty Ward McAllister was there?  Agnes' family is very blue-blooded and the Van Rhijn family is very blue-blooded, so why would she be afraid of saying anything in front of him?  She doesn't like Bertha and I think if she wanted to accomplish her goals but not make a huge scene, she could have said something like "Excuse me Bertha, I am so sorry to interrupt your luncheon, but seeing as how I have been so kind as to loan you the services of my English butler for the occasion, I hope you can forgive my intrusion.  I need to speak to him as the footman who is acting as my butler for my luncheon in his place can't seem to find a particular piece he needs."

Haha .. good one.  

Edited March 2, 2022 by kristen111

[eejm]

1 hour ago, blackwing said:

Gladys isn't being punished because of anything she did.  There's absolutely nothing Gladys can do to "earn" her debutante ball.  It's patently obvious that the only reason why she isn't out yet is because Bertha was waiting until they moved into their fancy mansion on 61st Street so people would notice their arrival.  And at the present, Bertha is afraid that nobody would come to the ball.  So Bertha is waiting until her own standing in society is improved before holding Glady's debutante ball.  Purely selfish.

I didn’t say there was anything Gladys could do to earn her ball.  I’m saying that’s how Bertha is treating it.  Instead of explaining that reason to Gladys and treating her with respect, Bertha has instead decided to treat her like a child and remind her every chance she can that she’s not out yet and will be considered a toddler until she is.  Gladys said as much to Carrie Astor about being allowed to attend the weird dolls’ tea party.  “Mother allowed, she’ll regret it, and I’ll be made to pay.”  (Paraphrasing)

Edited March 1, 2022 by eejm

[JenE4]

I think this was the best-written episode yet. The dialogue was hilarious—especially as related to the Van Rijhns. I howled over the ever-escalating explanation for why in the world a lawyer would be working during luncheon time?! Ada guesses that he must be Muslim and fasting for Ramadan, and later Agnes calls him an itinerant monk. The poor footman trying his best to be footman and butler, taking his gloves on and off and never getting around to serving Ada because Agnes kept asking for him to “switch roles” and give her something else. The look that Marian and Bannister gave each other like, oh, shit—pact to take this to the grave! And then Agnes busting in there and realizing she had to allow Marian—and god forbid Mrs Russell—give her the gracious out so she didn’t mortify herself in front of McAllister. Truly top notch! Thankfully poor Bannister has gotten himself off the hook once Agnes realized her own son is a traitor and gallivanting with her arch nemesis’s help?! Oh, hell no! 

We also got a lot more character development with the Russells. Finally George and Gladys both have had it with Bertha’s social climbing. George was willing to help her out when he could also make some business connections. But now that he has a tragedy at hand, he’s pissed that Bertha doesn’t have her priorities straight. Gladys, on the other hand, finally realized what it takes to manipulate her mother—she’ll say yes to anything if it means getting on tight with Miss Astor, another girl who has had it up to here with her mother controlling her life in the name of societal rankings. These two will make quite the team. And the mystery of who set up George for his downfall?! I’m guessing the rival railroad owner he ruined in the first episode or maybe the last actions of the guy who killed himself or his wife?

[mojito]

Quote

Marian is so annoying, she literally didn't even want Raikes writing to her in the first episode.  Her defending Raikes in front of Agnes who is literally only trying to protect her and is giving her an allowance is just so annoying. He is using her because she's the one who is literally getting him all this invites to society, she literally introduced him to society. 

I also think that maybe Carrie Astor is talking about her future husband, in real life she had to literally starve herself so Mrs.Astor would allow her to marry him.

😈

 

9 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Yes, her interaction with Larry was totally refreshing to me because it seemed like an actual conversation I believed somebody would be interested in.

There was a scene in the first episode, I believe, when Marian, Gladys, and Larry are together and Larry proposes a toast. He stated something about how they should be friends. He used a French phrase that I believe meant something like, "comrades in battle/war".  It was a little unusual since they didn't know each other very well, but perhaps he assumed that the three of them would have a generational difference with their elders. Maybe they're finally getting around to the promise of this friendship.

I found myself nodding with @edhopper. For me, this is just a humorous program that showcases the petty, silly lives of people who  thought being moneyed made them important and significant. Just for the heck of it the other day, I looked up a couple of the big names from the Gilded Age. Some of those family lines have dwindled to just about nothing. I think they would be bitterly disappointed to see how much fortunes and society has changed, and how their descendants in 2022 work in cubicles and drive Hondas and grab lunch (and don't attend luncheons) at Subway and are indistinguishable from the rest of us peasants. 

Edited March 2, 2022 by mojito

[iMonrey]

Quote

And her spinster son is mingling with servants in the street. She has no legacy.

Technically there is no such thing as a male spinster. The term has only ever been used to describe a woman who hasn't snagged herself a husband by a certain age - usually a very young age in that era, say within a year of coming out. It has never been used to describe unmarried men of any age and indeed bachelors could get away with remaining single indefinitely without scorn or question.

[Sarah 103]

19 hours ago, Straycat80 said:

I’m glad Gladys has finally made a friend and ally in Mrs. Astors daughter, now she’ll finally get out of the house and away from her smothering mother. 

I hope so. They have a common bond, and it's a real friendship, not just one for society reasons. Gladys could have gone to the lunch Miss. Astor invited her to, even if Gladys was not yet out in society, the lunch would not caused a scandal/hurt her chances in society. 

19 hours ago, eejm said:

I find Jack adorable enough to swaddle.  I’m happy that Bridget seems to have forgiven him for his behavior on their sort-of date as well.

Me too. Bridget knows/understands that Jack didn't do anything horribly wrong. She wasn't ready for the kind of the relationship or didn't want the kind of relationship he wanted. She wants him to suceed and wants to see him advance in his career. It's possible he could become the butler in that house or another after enough time has passed. 

18 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

Given so many in this cast are Broadway veterans, they really should do a musical episode.  I know it would be off brand for this show, but maybe they could do an episode where Mrs. Astor stages a musical and it becomes a big society thing to audition. 

It's too early for musicals as we think of them, but maybe some kind of talent show to raise money for a charity. The idea of appearing on stage would have been absolutely scandalous, so I don't know how you would get around that. 

18 hours ago, peridot said:

I laughed at Bannister's little skip after he was told he would be paid $100 for the luncheon. 

I did a bit of research and I think the $100 was close to year's salary for him.

7 hours ago, 3 is enough said:

There was an incredible amount of physical labor required to accomplish everyday tasks such as cooking meals and doing laundry. The very wealthy had servants to tend to all those tasks so they had time to focus on the finer details. 

You are correct. In addition, the clothing, especially for women required someone to help them dress and undress. 

6 hours ago, blackwing said:

I also don't understand why Agnes is all aghast that Oscar may possibly be dating Miss Turner, a lady's maid.  He's 35 years old and has presumably never shown any interest in a woman.  There are perfectly good explanations why he was talking with Turner.  I'm sure he will explain to Agnes that he is using Turner to get in with the Russells so he can court Gladys. 

I was going to post the exact same thing. This can be explained away so easily in the exact manner you suggest. 

4 hours ago, dmc said:

I honestly don't know about the UK.  Here though yes most networks give notes.  Actually when Netflix came around, they became known as one of the only networks that does not give notes.  

I thought HBO was the first to give producers/showrunners almost complete creative freedom and not issue notes to the creative team. 

2 hours ago, KarenX said:

But George loves his children and so maybe the compromise will be something like yes, but non-residential. Maybe skyscrapers! 

I love this idea. It fits with the idea of new money (many made their fortunes in things required to build skyscrapers) and how they were changing the city. 

[dmc]

30 minutes ago, Sarah 103 said:

I hope so. They have a common bond, and it's a real friendship, not just one for society reasons. Gladys could have gone to the lunch Miss. Astor invited her to, even if Gladys was not yet out in society, the lunch would not caused a scandal/hurt her chances in society. 

Me too. Bridget knows/understands that Jack didn't do anything horribly wrong. She wasn't ready for the kind of the relationship or didn't want the kind of relationship he wanted. She wants him to suceed and wants to see him advance in his career. It's possible he could become the butler in that house or another after enough time has passed. 

It's too early for musicals as we think of them, but maybe some kind of talent show to raise money for a charity. The idea of appearing on stage would have been absolutely scandalous, so I don't know how you would get around that. 

I did a bit of research and I think the $100 was close to year's salary for him.

You are correct. In addition, the clothing, especially for women required someone to help them dress and undress. 

I was going to post the exact same thing. This can be explained away so easily in the exact manner you suggest. 

I thought HBO was the first to give producers/showrunners almost complete creative freedom and not issue notes to the creative team. 

I love this idea. It fits with the idea of new money (many made their fortunes in things required to build skyscrapers) and how they were changing the city. 

No it was Netflix who created the no notes model for storytelling where you have complete creative control. 

This is something all storytellers deserve but it’s especially important for minority storytellers. 

A lot of times the stories that they were telling were being extremely filtered by networks to make them more palatable for white audiences.  So the minority experience that you saw even from minority storytellers was largely changed.  In the notes are on anything from casting choices to lines that they would like removed.

Once they started doing this a lot of storytellers started asking other networks to do the same. 

It’s an easier model for Netflix to adapt though because they aren’t reliant on advertisers in the traditional sense.  

It’s completely possible for a television advertiser to pull out because your content is something they view to be offensive. A lot of times networks with cycle back down to the storyteller with that needs to be removed. They would also get involved in casting choices and plots as well. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 1, 2022 by dmc

[buckboard]

Ward came from a socially prominent Georgia family, the son and grandson of judges.  He was a cousin of Samuel Ward and his sister Julia Ward Howe.  On his mother's side, Ward was related to Francis Marion, the celebrated "Swamp Fox" of the Revolutionary War.  Ward came to Gold Rush California with his brother and cousin, Samuel.  Although they didn't strike it rich as miners, Ward did observe that the "society" that developed in San Francisco came from newly acquired wealth, not old family status.

In 1853, Ward married a wealthy woman from Savannah.  They traveled in Europe for three years, where he attended parties, mingled with the aristocracy and learned how wealthy Europeans behaved.  His wife wasn't interested in society, but she was happy to spend her money to indulge him.  When they returned and bought an estate in Newport, he held balls and grand parties, hoping to become a leader in society.

When Caroline Schermerhorn Astor became "matriarch" of the family, Ward's exclusive (but well publicized) balls and his knowledge of European aristocrat manners helped her obtain her desire to reign over society, while her old family connections helped him become a member of said society. Ward's cousin Samuel was married to an Astor daughter, which had provided McAllister's connection to New York society.  Together they melded old families with new money, but making sure the new families conformed to the rules as determined by Ward and THE Mrs. Astor.

So, he was in fact a fop and snob as pictured in The Gilded Age.  He would have had a southern accent, although past his youth he spent much of his life not in the south, but in California, Europe, Rhode Island and New York.

For a good account about  Ward McAllister, there is an interesting podcast, "The Education of a Snob." 
https://www.boweryboyshistory.com/2022/02/the-education-of-a-snob-ward-mcallisters-american-aristocracy.html

[yellowjacket]

1 hour ago, mojito said:

😈

 

I found myself nodding with @edhopper. For me, this is just a humorous program that showcases the petty, silly lives of people who thought they were people who thought being moneyed made them important and significant. Just for the heck of it the other day, I looked up a couple of the big names from the Gilded Age. Some of those family lines have dwindled to just about nothing. I think they would be bitterly disappointed to see how much fortunes and society has changed, and how their descendants in 2022 work in cubicles and drive Hondas and grab lunch (and don't attend luncheons) at Subway and are indistinguishable from the rest of us peasants. 

Actually I drive a Mazda.

[hatchetgirl]

15 hours ago, hoodooznoodooz said:

I wish we could eat asparagus with our hands here.

We can!  We can!  https://queenanneeducation.com/how-to-serve-asparagus/

:)

[kristen111]

17 hours ago, twoods said:

Agnes is so exhausting some of the time, but then keeps redeeming herself because of Peggy. It was so nice to see her tell off Miss Armstrong.  Raikes is a social climber and Marian is completely clueless. I am wondering why he was after Marian in the beginning when she had no money and no social standing. I prefer Larry and am glad he’s sort of getting a storyline so maybe she has someone to go to when Raikes screws her over.

Rich people love luncheons don’t they? 
 

So happy that Gladys has a friend. She’s such a nice person, and hoping that George sticks up for himself more often. It was nice to see him getting annoyed with Bertha when she cared more about a luncheon than people dying in a train crash.

I think there’s more to Marian we don’t know, but Raike does.  He followed her to New York too quickly, and declared himself.

[CapeCodLuv]

42 minutes ago, buckboard said:

Ward came from a socially prominent Georgia family, the son and grandson of judges.  He was a cousin of Samuel Ward and his sister Julia Ward Howe.  On his mother's side, Ward was related to Francis Marion, the celebrated "Swamp Fox" of the Revolutionary War.  Ward came to Gold Rush California with his brother and cousin, Samuel.  Although they didn't strike it rich as miners, Ward did observe that the "society" that developed in San Francisco came from newly acquired wealth, not old family status.

In 1853, Ward married a wealthy woman from Savannah.  They traveled in Europe for three years, where he attended parties, mingled with the aristocracy and learned how wealthy Europeans behaved.  His wife wasn't interested in society, but she was happy to spend her money to indulge him.  When they returned and bought an estate in Newport, he held balls and grand parties, hoping to become a leader in society.

When Caroline Schermerhorn Astor became "matriarch" of the family, Ward's exclusive (but well publicized) balls and his knowledge of European aristocrat manners helped her obtain her desire to reign over society, while her old family connections helped him become a member of said society. Ward's cousin Samuel was married to an Astor daughter, which had provided McAllister's connection to New York society.  Together they melded old families with new money, but making sure the new families conformed to the rules as determined by Ward and THE Mrs. Astor.

So, he was in fact a fop and snob as pictured in The Gilded Age.  He would have had a southern accent, although past his youth he spent much of his life not in the south, but in California, Europe, Rhode Island and New York.

For a good account about  Ward McAllister, there is an interesting podcast, "The Education of a Snob." 
https://www.boweryboyshistory.com/2022/02/the-education-of-a-snob-ward-mcallisters-american-aristocracy.html

How fascinating! Thank you for doing the research and sharing. I adore Nathan Lane but cannot get past the accent and Colonel Sanders laugh. Your explanation helps as I can at least see it as being true. I also realize a master actor such as Lane would do his work in order to present a true character.

[Sakura12]

I automatically assumed it was Turner that turned Barrister into Agnes. She's the one with a grudge against the Russell's and is a conniving bitch. I don't thing Church has it in him to risk his job. Now he could've gone to her and she readily agreed. Since she doesn't seem to care about her job. 

Yes money matters to a charity, Mrs. Morris that's how they operate.

With Peggy and Marion being friends. I'm going with Peggy knows that Marion is well simple so she forgave her idiocy with the shoes. Everyone has warned Marion about the Lawyer and she refuses to see it. I don't agree with Agnes hard stance on the new money people but she does protect her family from men that want money or social standing. He seems too eager to get her to marry him which does look like he's trying to get something of hers. Like the money he told she doesn't have. 

Gladys got an invite to Mrs. Astor's house before Bertha. That's why she needs her daughter out and mingling with the other ladies and meeting more eligible men. Larry just seems to be there to help Gladys' story. The architect thing is something I guess. 

I'm glad im neither rich or living in that time period. It looks exhausting just to eat lunch. Lol 

[kristen111]

6 hours ago, blackwing said:

She is indeed a veteran Broadway actress and I would say she's definitely considered a "name" actor on this show.  She is the second biggest name behind Christine Baranski.  Maybe Audra McDonald has higher stature than her due to all of her Tony Awards but Audra is a recurring/guest actress on this show.

I know lots of people loved her as Miranda Hobbes the first time around but then hated her in the Sex and the City revival.  Frankly, I never liked Miranda Hobbes.  I always thought she was cold and unsympathetic.  If Nixon had been given the part of Agnes, I think I would have simply seen her as "Miranda Hobbes in 1880s New York".

So I feel like casting her as the kindhearted, sort of simple, and almost a bit ditzy Ada works well for her.

I also didn’t care for her in Sex and the City for the same reasons, and worse in the revival, but I love her in this part.  She seems like a totally different person.  Weird, isn’t it?  It’s like you just want to hug and protect her.

[JenE4]

I assumed it was the racist, bitchy housekeeper (or whatever her role is) who sent the letter to Agnes. They specifically had a scene of her watching Bannister cross the street to go to the Russells’ house. Why show that if it wasn’t her?

[CapeCodLuv]

I love reading all your insights. I am enjoying the show but do not consider it a favorite, it doesn't come close to my love for DA. I am grateful to have a diversion and love the costumes and scenery no matter how inaccurate. I am not invested in the stories of the downstairs cast, I do not think they are well written and not enough time is spent to make me care. I love Agnes, Ada, Peggy and the Russell's. Marion is bland, and the actress playing her has not improved. Someone earlier suggested she comes across as a high school teen in the school play, spot on! The writing doesn't help but Louisa is just not up to the job in my opinion. Gladys is so plain, her bangs and hair make me cringe. Hats of to Taissa for portraying such an unfortunate young girl so well. It amazes me her mother thinks she's such a prize beyond money, she is not beautiful and hasn't been allowed to display her wit or talents. I guess we are supposed to see Bertha is only looking to make a monetary match, she doesn't care if Gladys is happy. Gladys looks like one of the dolls at the odd party.

I do love Carrie C*** as Bertha and cannot for he life of me figure out why I am rooting for her to win. She's so desperate to fit in and cannot see how much she already has and how happy she should be. It's fascinating, maybe because I can view from modern times and so be grateful for how my family came through much more difficult circumstances. There is just something about watching the ultra rich which has always interested me,  I guess the other half has always fascinated me. I might buy myself oyster spoons some day!

[Sakura12]

7 minutes ago, JenE4 said:

I assumed it was the racist, bitchy housekeeper (or whatever her role is) who sent the letter to Agnes. They specifically had a scene of her watching Bannister cross the street to go to the Russells’ house. Why show that if it wasn’t her?

The racist maid saw Oscar and Bertha's maid talking. She didn't see Barrister go into the Russell's house.

[Toodleoo]

10 hours ago, MollyB said:

 

And don't get me started on the woman who exclaimed "Aunt Agnes!"  WTF? Agnes has another niece? No, this is just 'new money' bad manners.  The only person who showed any class at all was George, who actually stood when a lady entered the room.

 

 

It’s a silly nitpick on my part, but upon rewatch just now I noticed that all the men stood for Agnes.

 

Edited March 2, 2022 by Toodleoo
clarity

[JenE4]

3 minutes ago, Sakura12 said:

The racist maid saw Oscar and Bertha's maid talking. She didn't see Barrister go into the Russell's house.

Ah! So she told Agnes about that. I knew she saw and told her something scandalous! Lol.

[Sarah 103]

2 hours ago, dmc said:

It’s an easier model for Netflix to adapt though because they aren’t reliant on advertisers in the traditional sense.

Neither is HBO. HBO gets all of its money from people subscribing to HBO. HBO is not supported by advertisers the way network or cable (USA, FX, AMC) is. That's why I thought HBO was the first to give creators full control and not give them notes. 

[Noneofyourbusiness]

7 hours ago, blackwing said:

Ah right... I believe that Aurora Fane is indeed Agnes' niece.  I don't think it's a blood relation, I think she is the daughter of a sibling of Agnes' husband.  So maybe that's why there was the familiarity between Marian and Aurora, although I still think it odd since they aren't actually cousins themselves.  Aurora is Oscar's first cousin, but Marian to Aurora is merely a cousin's cousin.

In the first episode, Aurora told Marian that her uncle was married to Marian's aunt and that she and Marian were also cousins through the Livingstons. Agnes had already mentioned that her mother, Marian's grandmother, was a Livingston. So Marian and Aurora are second or third cousins by blood as well as cousins by marriage.

Edited March 2, 2022 by Noneofyourbusiness

[izabella]

9 hours ago, blackwing said:

Interested to see where things go with Mrs. Chamberlain.  Did they purposely make Jeanne Tripplehorn look like a hag?  Granted, it's been ages since "Basic Instinct", but she looked aged and tired.  And that yellow/chartreuse/whatever colour it was dress on her was seriously hideous.  

I've always thought she's beautiful, but that was an awful color and dress.  I think her hairstyle with the short little bangs does not help matters - they flatter no one. 

I've noticed Bertha and Aurora Fane do not wear bangs, and Marian parts hers to the side.  The others who wear the fringe, like Mrs. Chamberlain, Agnes, Mrs. Scott and Mrs. Astor seem to fall into the older generation. 

Edited March 2, 2022 by izabella

[brillia79]

22 hours ago, SailorGirl said:

Like her or not, you gotta give it to Bertha the way she handled walking into a conversation about her husband being a murderer. . . . Mrs. Morris refusing to acknowledge her husband's personal responsibility . . . a trait of rich white wasps going back for over a century. . . . 

Every time Mrs. Morris pulls the self righteous widow act, I laugh. She and her husband meant for the fate that smacked them in the face to befall The Russels. When you dig a grave for your enemy, dig two.

Its weird saying this because all these people are terrible robber barrons. But Mrs. Morris gets on my last nerve.