S01.E05: Charity Has Two Functions

[Pestilentia]

Quote

So I don’t understand why George lets Bertha steamroller over Gladys’s life.

 

George and Bertha are a team. I have no doubt that their aspirations and plans were discussed endlessly during their lean, initial years and an agreement made that she handles the home and children and he handles business/finance. George disagrees with how Gladys is being handled but defers to Bertha's wishes because he supports her and her goals 100%. Bertha leaves his business to him- that's their deal. He is standing by their 'marriage rules' so to speak- the home and children are her purview, not his, so she gets her way with Gladys.

I absolutely love their relationship as I am part of a marriage team as well. Their support of each other's goals despite not fully agreeing with the methodology is one of the things I like most. George trusts Bertha to get what she wants on her end and I love trust between partners. Not that they aren't ruining Gladys in the process- Bertha is making the most common parental mistake ever- wanting for your children what you want for yourself instead of what they want. It will bite her in the butt, but for now Bertha wins.

So while they are hugely flawed people with questionable goals, their depiction of marriage is my favorite on television right now and perhaps ever. They are a strong couple, an absolutely  perfect match. If Bertha could only get her head out of her ass she would see that her own love match is what she should wish for Gladys, not aristocracy. Bertha's flaw is that she must always claw for more- she will never be satisfied, she will always feel lacking socially probably because of her Irish peasant ancestry. There is not enough success or riches or social standing in the world that will ever make her feel the way she wants to feel- she will always need more. She blinded by her ambition and not seeing that she already enjoys the greatest thing anyone could ever aspire to- a totally devoted, loving, loyal husband who would move heaven and earth to make her happy.

And it's the little things- when Bertha swept out the door in that glorious cape George gave Turner that long look that screamed "Now THAT's the woman that stirs me!" Tiny looks, touches, hints of affection- I just love their dynamic as a couple. 

Quote

I don't think telling anecdotes about one's childhood makes a good dialogue that must in any case be short.

 

Don't be so literal, lol, you know exactly what I mean. Small talk. Getting to know one another. "What a lovely day, I don't think I've seen a spring day this fine in years." or whatever passes for small talk within the restricted rules of the day. Raikes has never presented himself as a person. He was a lawyer for about three minutes then he was totally in love, so much so that he relocated his business and declared himself her future husband. He assumed she was 'in' and agreeable before she even understood the question. He is assuming they are betrothed and using his enthusiasm and sheer will to pull Marian along for the ride- she's thinks she's fully convinced that she loves him and they have a future. In fact I feel like Raikes is bamboozling her- he's moving so fast and assuming so much that she hasn't taken the time to think. To her it's a whirlwind 'romance' but to him he's pulling wool over her eyes and baffling her with bullshit. Not that thinking is Marian's strong suit, lol.  But Aunt Agnes has his number and she is never wrong!

And his behavior in the hallway of the hotel proved it. He has no concern at all for Marian as a respectable woman of her day- he endangered her entire future by snogging her in public like that. He went WAY too far- he simply has no honor and he is no gentleman. He actually implied that he wanted to be invited in? Raikes does NOT have Marian's best interests at heart, not even a little- he is up to something. Instead of wanking all the reasons he is a good guy I think we need to be worrying about why he wanted to get into a hotel room alone with Marian. What exactly could he accomplish by compromising her, what possible advantage could ruining her prospects have for him? It would make marrying her off as quietly and quickly as possible Agnes' best course of action and he knows it.

Archie never stood a chance. This was no "choice" because there was no way out.  This was George saying "You have NO chance at all here and if you pursue Gladys I will wipe you out." George may have framed it as a "choice"  but even Archie was smart enough to understand that it was not- it was a very clear, unequivocal threat. A threat by a man who swept into NYC and outwitted the old guard at their own game, a new money railroad tycoon who is wreaking havoc at every turn and tossing out $100 bills like confetti. Archie knew he would be no more than horse crap on George's shoe if he even attempted to bargain or even continue the conversation so he bailed. He dodged a bullet and good for him.

And now the racism- I see it everywhere in this show. Maybe because I watch reruns so often, but the people with non-speaking roles who populate the screen are whispering, looking down their noses, shaking their heads. It's not the dialogue people, it's the extras you need to be watching- they simply exude racism just by standing there with steely, disapproving eyes as Peggy walks by. It's very blatant to me- it radiates like a nearly visible aura.    

[Hiyo]

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George disagrees with how Gladys is being handled but defers to Bertha's wishes because he supports her and her goals 100%

He might also think that marrying Gladys off into a well-off old money family could have some financial and business benefits down the line...in some ways, it could be just as profitable as marrying her off into a new money family.

[Roseanna]

33 minutes ago, Pestilentia said:

George trusts Bertha to get what she wants on her end and I love trust between partners. Not that they aren't ruining Gladys in the process- Bertha is making the most common parental mistake ever- wanting for your children what you want for yourself instead of what they want. It will bite her in the butt, but for now Bertha wins.

-- -

She blinded by her ambition and not seeing that she already enjoys the greatest thing anyone could ever aspire to- a totally devoted, loving, loyal husband who would move heaven and earth to make her happy.

It sometimes happened that parents were right not to let their children get what they wanted because they recognized fortune hunters, spendthrifts, addict, abusers, womanizers etc.

But of course that doesn't fit to Bertha. She would have be wise to say f.ex: "you must wait until you are, say, 21 years, and have met other men, and wouldn't you like a trip to Europe?"

[Roseanna]

1 hour ago, Pestilentia said:

And his behavior in the hallway of the hotel proved it. He has no concern at all for Marian as a respectable woman of her day- he endangered her entire future by snogging her in public like that. He went WAY too far- he simply has no honor and he is no gentleman. He actually implied that he wanted to be invited in? Raikes does NOT have Marian's best interests at heart, not even a little- he is up to something. Instead of wanking all the reasons he is a good guy I think we need to be worrying about why he wanted to get into a hotel room alone with Marian. What exactly could he accomplish by compromising her, what possible advantage could ruining her prospects have for him? It would make marrying her off as quietly and quickly as possible Agnes' best course of action and he knows it.

Good points.

However, the "bourgeois romance" was grounded in the 18th century by Samuel Richardson in Clarissa where the heroine defended her virtue so long that the hero who had tried to seduce finally consented to marry her. After that, in some romances there are a seducing villain and a saving hero, but sometimes the same man still have both roles.  

[dmc]

Bertha reminds me of Queen Elizabeth.  She made sure she got a love match but everyone else needs to marry someone who is a credit to their family. 

Edited February 23, 2022 by dmc

[GallwayGirl]

On 2/21/2022 at 9:51 PM, Enigma X said:

It seems that every emotion that people have on this show is flat. Happy=flat. Shocked=flat. Sad=flat. Just flat.

This. The acting seems very stilted to me. No emotion about anything.

[blackwing]

8 hours ago, KarenX said:

I just don’t see the Russells as bad parents. This battle of wills between Gladys and her mother notwithstanding, they seem to be a family created on security and respect. Neither Gladys nor Larry fears speaking their mind or arguing with their parents. They sit around the table and have lively conversation. For all Gladys says no one listens to her she’s gotten a governess to take her on trysts and convinced a maid to spy for her. Both children are confident and self-assured.

Now I wonder aloud: If Gladys successfully debuts to a filled ballroom, that makes Larry’s status rise, too. Sure, he’s friends with people but if his sister gets brought out The Right Way that eligibility will shine on him, too. Bertha is kind of doing double duty here, but sadly Gladys is the only one affected day to day.

I think they are bad parents.  To me they are bad parents in the sense that they couldn't care less what their grown son and 17 year old daughter think or want.  Everything is controlled by them.  The worst offense to me is that Bertha and George use their children like pawns to accomplish their own means.  

Archie was from a perfectly respectable and wealthy family.  His family was building a second home in Newport, his family was already acquainted with Mrs. Astor.  They were already "in".  But it's not good enough because his family is not at the top.  Bertha wants to marry Gladys off to the best candidate possible, not to assure Gladys of a stable and secure future, but because she wants her own standing elevated if her daughter becomes a duchess.

I think that's awful.  They think nothing of playing with their children's lives.  They are just pawns in their high society game.  I'm wondering why nothing has been done about Larry yet.  He is rich, nice and handsome.  And older than Gladys.  Why isn't Bertha matchmaking for him?  It would be justice to me if Larry falls for Marian or Peggy or maybe even Oscar.  Someone that is surely "unacceptable" to snooty Bertha.

[Pop Tart]

7 hours ago, Hiyo said:

I'm not sure it's a case of being "outranked" - the British aristocracy isn't officially recognized in the US, is it? - but more the prestige of having "nobility" in someone's family.

I think there was definitely a deference and fascination with the British aristocracy, even with this powerful, moneyed crowd. So to gain an Earl or a Duke for a daughter was beyond desirable to the matchmaking mothers. Even if they were beyond powerful in their own social circle in New York, they were also extremely interested in (and likely insecure about) the much older aristocracy.

I was reading up on Ward McAllister and part of his cache at the time came from the fact that he had toured Britain and Europe and supposedly hobnobbed with "society" in those travels. When he became the societal arbiter of what was good and proper, a lot of what was determined to be correct was what they might be doing in those countries.

When Agnes's butler went across the street and had a tour of the Russell home, much of his commentary was about how curious (read passive aggressive insult here) it was the way they had the silverware and the glassware and that they were having chicken soup, etc. etc. All of that was connected to an idea of what's socially correct.

 

[Popples]

15 minutes ago, Pop Tart said:

I was reading up on Ward McAllister and part of his cache at the time came from the fact that he had toured Britain and Europe and supposedly hobnobbed with "society" in those travels. When he became the societal arbiter of what was good and proper, a lot of what was determined to be correct was what they might be doing in those countries.

Is this from a specific book? I'm stockpiling my reading list and would love recommendations.

[eleanorofaquitaine]

8 hours ago, Hiyo said:

I'm not sure it's a case of being "outranked" - the British aristocracy isn't officially recognized in the US, is it? - but more the prestige of having "nobility" in someone's family.

I think that this is the right way to look at it. Sure, Americans are impressed by aristocratic titles but at the end of the day, we don't officially recognize them and we don't have the same rules around them, built up over centuries and often codified into law, that the British do.

So "outranking" in the U.S. in this period is all about gatekeepers deciding who is and isn't worthy - and we can see both how much money plays a role in that and how quickly it can all disappear. Likely Bertha wants Gladys to marry a European noble because it will convey prestige but that doesn't mean that somehow a society doyenne like Mrs. Astor loses her position as the arbiter of taste in New York and Newport.

[AZChristian]

One thing that stuck out to me this episode.  When Bertha was called up to the platform by Clara Barton, she didn't have a loving, compassionate look on her face while listening to Clara's speech.  She stood there behind Clara with a haughty look that was every bit as (or even more) condescending as what she hated from the "old money" people.  "Look at ME!!!  I'm up on the platform and YOU are not."

Her face defined the phrase "looking down her nose at people."

[sistermagpie]

8 hours ago, Hiyo said:

That's all fine and dandy, just not sure using literature that was published decades and decades before this era is the best use of a comparison. I mean, granted, The Age of Innocence was published decades after, in 1920, but at least in-story only take places a decade or so prior to the events of this series, so for me works as much better comparison piece.

 

6 hours ago, Roseanna said:

Unfortunately, I would find a person who tells personal memoirs to unknown people who are not asked about them quite selfish and boring.

But lets presume Marian had made questions to Raikes. What kind of things she should have paid attention to? Of course how he speaks about his family, especially about his mother and sisters if any, what kind of values his stories reveal, his sense of humor (can he laugh at himself?).

 

 

3 hours ago, Pestilentia said:

Don't be so literal, lol, you know exactly what I mean. Small talk. Getting to know one another. "What a lovely day, I don't think I've seen a spring day this fine in years." or whatever passes for small talk within the restricted rules of the day. Raikes has never presented himself as a person. He was a lawyer for about three minutes then he was totally in love, so much so that he relocated his business and declared himself her future husband. He assumed she was 'in' and agreeable before she even understood the question. He is assuming they are betrothed and using his enthusiasm and sheer will to pull Marian along for the ride- she's thinks she's fully convinced that she loves him and they have a future. In fact I feel like Raikes is bamboozling her- he's moving so fast and assuming so much that she hasn't taken the time to think. To her it's a whirlwind 'romance' but to him he's pulling wool over her eyes and baffling her with bullshit. Not that thinking is Marian's strong suit, lol.  But Aunt Agnes has his number and she is never wrong!

Yes, a lot of this seems to get more at where the danger is. Somebody who rambles on about themselves to strangers can be boring--but when you care about someone you *do* like hearing anecdotes about their life. That's who they are--and plenty of anecdotes are funny. That's not the same as gossiping or bragging about people the other person doesn't know or care about, it's getting to know the person you're allegedly in love with.

In this case, too, there's the fact that Marian is claiming that this guy doesn't care about a lot of social climbing because he's from Doylestown when he's social climbing all over the place, implying that she's got no idea what this guy is even about while he's asking her to let him come into her hotel room. I'm not even sure what her reaction was to his rattling off all the best places he would take her in NYC. She noted that he sounded like a native already, but didn't seem to attach anything about it to him beyond some general curiousity about the place he was in.

So on one hand she does know the stuff that's important both in Jane Austen's time and here--that he's not from a good family, he's a nobody in that sense. But she also doesn't know any behavior patterns he might have had in the past and never ever questions his aggressive behavior in front of her face. She needed Peggy there to protect her when she was with Raikes. Raikes himself can't be counted on to protect her, and is more likely to be the one she needs protection from.

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And now the racism- I see it everywhere in this show. Maybe because I watch reruns so often, but the people with non-speaking roles who populate the screen are whispering, looking down their noses, shaking their heads. It's not the dialogue people, it's the extras you need to be watching- they simply exude racism just by standing there with steely, disapproving eyes as Peggy walks by. It's very blatant to me- it radiates like a nearly visible aura.    

I think the non-speaking roles do a great job performing racism. It just makes the speaking roles of the aristocrats Fellowes likes so much more obviously set apart. It's not that there's no racism in the world they're in--it's obviously everywhere. You just have to accept the characters you're supposed to like aren't ever going to be too vulgar about it, no matter how obvious the extras around them are directed to be. Agnes isn't going to be side-eying any black women who find themselves in Bloomingdale's, guaranteed. She'd be Mrs. Chamberlain.

Edited February 23, 2022 by sistermagpie

[OtterMommy]

On 2/21/2022 at 8:08 PM, Bulldog said:

I thought it was some kind of test.  If he turned down the offer, it would show he really loved Gladys and George would give his blessing.  But, I guess that wasn't what George had in mind.  

I'm not sure it was a test.  I thought it was until George told Archie he would ruin him professionally if he didn't take his offer.  It was really a no win situation for Archie.

[BabyBella94]

1 hour ago, eleanorofaquitaine said:

I think that this is the right way to look at it. Sure, Americans are impressed by aristocratic titles but at the end of the day, we don't officially recognize them and we don't have the same rules around them, built up over centuries and often codified into law, that the British do.

So "outranking" in the U.S. in this period is all about gatekeepers deciding who is and isn't worthy - and we can see both how much money plays a role in that and how quickly it can all disappear. Likely Bertha wants Gladys to marry a European noble because it will convey prestige but that doesn't mean that somehow a society doyenne like Mrs. Astor loses her position as the arbiter of taste in New York and Newport.

Mrs. Astor doesn't lose her prestige but she could never ignore a Duchess or a member of the aristocracy. It happened many times in real life where they valued and accepted new money members who married into nobility. It mattered to them because they basically cosplayed the whole British Nobility. Pedigree mattered a lot to them and not just the money aspect. 

[OtterMommy]

On 2/22/2022 at 6:56 AM, izabella said:

I think the way he is doing it, for those times, is far too aggressive.  He is "taking liberties" with her virtue by kissing her in a hotel hallway for anyone to see, and for suggesting he go into her room.  That is not the way a gentleman courts a young woman, and his putting her in that position is a sign of disrespect.  Raikes is no gentleman, though, as both Ada and Agnes would surely remind Marian.  Ada would be just as appalled as Agnes, if she knew.

 

This.  

Even if they aren't in the uppermost classes, Raikes (I still say the name is a big clue) actions towards Marian, whether or not she reciprocates, are far too aggressive.  Marian may be just as into as he seems to be, but the sad truth is that the only one who will pay a consequence is Marian.  I mean, look at the Jeanne Tripplehorn character.

Raikes clearly wants to be part of the uppercrust.  Whether or not what he wants from/with Marian is genuine, he should know that his class aspriations are not compatible with him marrying a woman he has previously "known."

[BabyBella94]

2 hours ago, blackwing said:

I think that's awful.  They think nothing of playing with their children's lives.  They are just pawns in their high society game.  I'm wondering why nothing has been done about Larry yet.  He is rich, nice and handsome.  And older than Gladys.  Why isn't Bertha matchmaking for him?  It would be justice to me if Larry falls for Marian or Peggy or maybe even Oscar.  Someone that is surely "unacceptable" to snooty Bertha.

I think Marian and Larry will be endgame in the series, it's too good to pass up on. Idk how Bertha would feel about her as a partner for Larry but Larry hits back at his mother and isn't afraid to state his own opinions. 

[OtterMommy]

20 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

I gotta say, I wasn't sure about casting Nathan Lane as Foghorn Leghorn in a live action Looney Tunes, but he pulls it off!

I can't say that I bought it.  It was sort of like Jason Alexander's appearance son Young Sheldon--a solid actor who resorted to hamming it up.  I felt Lane's performance was less successful, not only because of what kind of show this is (i.e. not a sitcom) but because we really weren't given anything to go on as far as to what to expect with MacAllister that Lane could then subvert.

[Pop Tart]

1 hour ago, Popples said:

Is this from a specific book? I'm stockpiling my reading list and would love recommendations.

His own book, Society As I Have Found It, is one of the things I've read chunks of - though I'll admit his own "history" is certainly colored by his own touting of himself. Otherwise I've been reading what articles I can find about him. He did travel to Europe and he does say in his book that he studied the manners/isms of those he met in Europe. 

[iMonrey]

Quote

Even if they aren't in the uppermost classes, Raikes (I still say the name is a big clue) actions towards Marian, whether or not she reciprocates, are far too aggressive.  Marian may be just as into as he seems to be, but the sad truth is that the only one who will pay a consequence is Marian.

Good point about his name being a clue. But I fear all this speculation about Raikes having ulterior motives may be giving Julian Fellowes too much credit. The whole season feels very rushed like they are trying to cram too much story into 10 episodes in case they don't get a second season. It's quite possible the "romance" between Raikes and Marian can be taken at face value without any hidden agenda. 

On another note, Turner is starting to crack me up. When Adelheid sat down next to her, Turner looked at her with such horror on her face you'd have thought a serial killer had sat down next to her.

[Pop Tart]

I see both sides of the argument regarding the Russells' parenting and Bertha as good or bad mom.

Gladys is 17 and Archie is the very first boy/man she's met at all, so it's not bad guidance to tell her to put on the breaks. Gladys had sort of put them in a corner by her secretly going out to meet Archie (how did she even meet him, do we know?), so that her parents had to take it a bit more seriously. Of course Bertha and George, as they do with most things, come in with a sledgehammer where a toy hammer might do.

It certainly could have been handled more kindly, to say the least, but it's not wrong to think that it's much too soon to settle on this one person she's met. We know that Bertha has grander ambitions, for sure, but Gladys has met no one else at all. And in fact this is a mistake that Marian is making as well. Raikes is the very first man who's shown an interest, as far as we know, so it's far, far, far too soon to be be considering marriage.

The other dynamic I see is that while George did support Bertha's wishes, he did make it pretty clear to Gladys that while he was doing so it was against his own inclinations, that "if it were up to him..." Yes, in this world, and in this household in particular, domestic matters are under Bertha's purview. So George accedes to her wishes, but he makes sure his kids know that he's on their side, just can't do anything about it.

The thing is, again Bertha's ambitions aside, she, as a woman, knows what happens to women if they make bad choices. Making sure a daughter makes the very best marriage possible in this time period was a matter of survival in many cases. It wasn't just about a mother's ambition - though here it is more-so as Bertha is so determined - but about making sure a woman, who had very few legal protections on her own and was at the mercy of the men in her life, would be set for life.

Edited February 23, 2022 by Pop Tart

[hatchetgirl]

On 2/21/2022 at 9:28 PM, ZeeEnnui said:

Pamuked

My new favorite word for a little nukkie before marriage!

I think Bertha is hoping for a European title for Gladys.  A lot of the US new money mothers were doing this at this time.  European title gentlemen were cash poor and titled, US new money women were society poor and RICH.  Win win.  Hopefully, she'll make a good match a la Downton Abbey.

[MissLucas]

24 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

On another note, Turner is starting to crack me up. When Adelheid sat down next to her, Turner looked at her with such horror on her face you'd have thought a serial killer had sat down next to her.

He! I loved how Adelheid came prepared for the job, her outfit was almost a copy of Turner's down to the little ruffle collar. She was not kidding when she claimed to have studied Miss Turner. Mrs Bruce reaction to that statement was also hilarious!

[hatchetgirl]

Oh sweet Adelheid.  I hope for the best for her!  So eager and genuine!  

[blackwing]

19 minutes ago, Pop Tart said:

I see both sides of the argument regarding the Russells' parenting and Bertha as good or bad mom.

Gladys is 17 and Archie is the very first boy/man she's met at all, so it's not bad guidance to tell her to put on the breaks. Gladys had sort of put them in a corner by her secretly going out to meet Archie (how did she even meet him, do we know?), so that her parents had to take it a bit more seriously. Of course Bertha and George, as they do with most things, come in with a sledgehammer where a toy hammer might do.

It certainly could have been handled more kindly, to say the least, but it's not wrong to think that it's much too soon to settle on this one person she's met. We know that Bertha has grander ambitions, for sure, but Gladys has met no one else at all. And in fact this is a mistake that Marian is making as well. Raikes is the very first man who's shown an interest, as far as we know, so it's far, far, far too soon to be be considering marriage.

The other dynamic I see is that while George did support Bertha's wishes, he did make it pretty clear to Gladys that while he was doing so it was against his own inclinations, that "if it were up to him..." Yes, in this world, and in this household in particular, domestic matters are under Bertha's purview. So George accedes to her wishes, but he makes sure his kids know that he's on their side, just can't do anything about it.

The thing is, again Bertha's ambitions aside, she, as a woman, knows what happens to women if they make bad choices. Making sure a daughter makes the very best marriage possible in this time period was a matter of survival in many cases. It wasn't just about a mother's ambition - though here it is more-so as Bertha is so determined - but about making sure a woman, who had very few legal protections on her own and was at the mercy of the men in her life, would be set for life.

Well, that's the thing... Archie wasn't necessarily a "bad choice".  His family is well-to-do and already had the social connections.  Gladys would already be set for life, her family had the money.  She would have been perfectly fine in society as the wife of Archie Baldwin.  It's just that he isn't what Bertha wanted to choose for her daughter.  

I do agree that he is 24, she is 17, there's no reason for her to want to marry the first guy she ever came across.  But how is she to learn if she is not allowed to even see him?  I find it interesting that George fully acknowledges that Bertha keeps Gladys in the house like a jailer, but then he accedes to Bertha's wishes.

My biggest issue was the way George had absolutely no qualms about ruining Archie's life.  I've given you a good job, you will take this job and agree to never see Gladys again.  If you don't take this job, I will make sure you never ever work in finance again.  What a complete dick.  I'd love if Archie went back to his family and told his parents and Mrs. Astor that he was threatened by George.   Mrs. Astor could easily see that the doors to Bertha are slammed shut for good.

 

13 minutes ago, MissLucas said:

He! I loved how Adelheid came prepared for the job, her outfit was almost a copy of Turner's down to the little ruffle collar. She was not kidding when she claimed to have studied Miss Turner. Mrs Bruce reaction to that statement was also hilarious!

Yes, that was hilarious.  I think this is the first time we have heard her called by name?  I am so confused as to exactly who is in the staff of each of the houses.  I don't know some of these people's names.

Van Rhijn Household has Bannister (Butler), ? (Housekeeper), Miss Armstrong (not sure, is she the housekeeper?), Gambling Addict Cook (Cook), Bridget (Kitchen Maid), Jack (footman).  

Russell household has Church (Butler), Mrs. Bruce (housekeeper), Turner (ladys maid), Adelheid (ladys maid), French chef (Cook).

Are there any others who are identifiable?

[eleanorofaquitaine]

57 minutes ago, BabyBella94 said:

Mrs. Astor doesn't lose her prestige but she could never ignore a Duchess or a member of the aristocracy. It happened many times in real life where they valued and accepted new money members who married into nobility. It mattered to them because they basically cosplayed the whole British Nobility. Pedigree mattered a lot to them and not just the money aspect. 

No one is saying pedigree didn't matter to them. But the initial claim was that people with titles automatically "outranked" others, and all I am saying is that the dynamic was a lot more complicated - and fluid - than that because we don't have an aristocracy.  People with European titles could lose status here in ways that they couldn't in their countries of origins because we don't live in a society that puts official weight into titles. And that was true back then, too 

It is certainly the case that New Money people sought to buy titles to force their way into society. But that didn't mean they "outranked" people like the Astors or the Roosevelts. It just meant they couldn't be shunned (unless and until they lost their money or did something scandalous).

[Sarah 103]

16 hours ago, PRgal said:

I would LOVE a show about the Scotts.  I want to know about Mr. Scott's struggles becoming well off, for example.  I (and many other viewers) also want to know if he was freed as a child, who helped him with his education/training, etc.

I would love to watch this hypothetical series as well. You would need multiple seasons to tell it properly because it would be covering a 20 year time period at a minumum, but you could skip years between seasons. A season ends in 1875 and the next season starts in 1880. The early seasons would have to cut back and forth between Mr. Scott as a newly freed person or a young runaway and the future Mrs. Scott being a free black woman in New York during the 1860s. The pilot starts with Mr. Scott being freed or running away.     

16 hours ago, BabyBella94 said:

I wish we could see Marian doing more interesting things. Like exploring the city, getting involved in charity work, making new friends and etc. This whole romance with Raikes is boring. 

This brings up a question I had. Why don't we see Marian interacting with more people close to her own age? Is it because she was never formally brought out to society? Are her aunts preventing it for some reason? Do the other mothers feel she isn't the right sort of person for thier daughters to be friends with and spend with socially? 

11 hours ago, Hiyo said:

I'm not sure it's a case of being "outranked" - the British aristocracy isn't officially recognized in the US, is it? - but more the prestige of having "nobility" in someone's family.

I think it's recognized in that titles would be used as part of an introduction (Lord and Lady _______, or whatever thier titles were) instead of Mr. and Mrs. ________. Titles would not grant them special privilages or rights within the U.S except for bragging rights. 

31 minutes ago, blackwing said:

I am so confused as to exactly who is in the staff of each of the houses.  I don't know some of these people's names.

You have no idea how much better this makes me feel. It's fantastic knowing I'm not the only one who is having trouble learning the names and jobs of the downstairs people in both houses. 

[MissLucas]

40 minutes ago, blackwing said:

Van Rhijn Household has Bannister (Butler), ? (Housekeeper), Miss Armstrong (not sure, is she the housekeeper?), Gambling Addict Cook (Cook), Bridget (Kitchen Maid), Jack (footman).  

Russell household has Church (Butler), Mrs. Bruce (housekeeper), Turner (ladys maid), Adelheid (ladys maid), French chef (Cook).

Are there any others who are identifiable?

Miss Armstrong is the Van Rhijn Housekeeper, Cook's name is Mrs Bauer - MIA is a lady's maid who must exist because I don't see Agnes lacing up Ada and doing her hair (vice versa works) and at least one housemaid.

The Russell household also has depressed/stalker valet ? Walker and several unnamed kitchen maids helping Monsieur Bauduin. And there must be more maids keeping that palace dust-free plus those footmen in 18th century inspired liveries.

[BabyBella94]

2 hours ago, iMonrey said:

Good point about his name being a clue. But I fear all this speculation about Raikes having ulterior motives may be giving Julian Fellowes too much credit. The whole season feels very rushed like they are trying to cram too much story into 10 episodes in case they don't get a second season. It's quite possible the "romance" between Raikes and Marian can be taken at face value without any hidden agenda. 

On another note, Turner is starting to crack me up. When Adelheid sat down next to her, Turner looked at her with such horror on her face you'd have thought a serial killer had sat down next to her.

The actor confirmed that they named him Raikes on purpose. 

[pasdetrois]

On 2/21/2022 at 9:51 PM, Enigma X said:

It seems that every emotion that people have on this show is flat.

I think the actors are going for elegance  and snooty refrain but it's horrible and has ruined the series for me. They all look and talk like mannequins. Baranski is the exception. ETA: How could I forget scenery-chewing Nathan Lane?

Edited February 24, 2022 by pasdetrois

[Affogato]

3 hours ago, AZChristian said:

One thing that stuck out to me this episode.  When Bertha was called up to the platform by Clara Barton, she didn't have a loving, compassionate look on her face while listening to Clara's speech.  She stood there behind Clara with a haughty look that was every bit as (or even more) condescending as what she hated from the "old money" people.  "Look at ME!!!  I'm up on the platform and YOU are not."

Her face defined the phrase "looking down her nose at people."

Yes in this episode you really saw why they hired Carrie Coon and Morgan Spector. 

Edited February 23, 2022 by Affogato
Typo

[Roseanna]

1 hour ago, Sarah 103 said:

This brings up a question I had. Why don't we see Marian interacting with more peopleclose to her own age? Is it because she was never formally brought out to society? Are her aunts preventing it for some reason? Do the other mothers feel she isn't the right sort of person for thier daughters to be friends with and spend with socially? 

The reason is probably that in the show there can't be too many characters as every scene takes time. Marian already have Peggy as her best friend ti whom she tells her feelings. 

[Roseanna]

5 hours ago, blackwing said:

I'm wondering why nothing has been done about Larry yet.  He is rich, nice and handsome.  And older than Gladys.  Why isn't Bertha matchmaking for him?  It would be justice to me if Larry falls for Marian or Peggy or maybe even Oscar.  Someone that is surely "unacceptable" to snooty Bertha.

Larry is a man, so he can marry later than Gladys. And actually, he is now quite young, having just ended his university studies. He works for his father (at least we are told so, we aren't seen it) but hasn't achieved anything himself.

Also, as a man Larry has a complete freedom to move and meet his friends (and possibly actresses and dancers). Bertha can't control him and she doesn't even try it.

[rollacoaster]

4 hours ago, AZChristian said:

One thing that stuck out to me this episode.  When Bertha was called up to the platform by Clara Barton, she didn't have a loving, compassionate look on her face while listening to Clara's speech.  She stood there behind Clara with a haughty look that was every bit as (or even more) condescending as what she hated from the "old money" people.  "Look at ME!!!  I'm up on the platform and YOU are not."

Her face defined the phrase "looking down her nose at people."

That is something I appreciate about Bertha. She is at all times unabashedly herself. She is direct and straightforward about what she wants and expects. She does not simper or pretend or act sanctimonious. She calls bullshit when she sees it. Is she arrogant and hard, and stuck up and always thinks she's right? Absolutely. Is she a nice person or even a good person? Probably not. Does she hate when people look down on her? For sure. Will she look down on others when given the opportunity? Oh, yes. 

I mean, I wouldn't want her for my bestie, but, she is honest and real in a world filled with folk hiding deep ugliness behind smiles and simpers and false piety and compassion. You always know where you stand with her. Basically, if you don't screw with her or stand in her way, she won't screw with you. 

******************************************

I'm seeing the set up for a rift between George and Bertha. For all his ruthlessness, he does seem to have warm spots for old friends and family. He inquired about  inviting old friends and family to their home, and is concerned about Bertha's treatment of Gladys. And he was very clear that the social climbing plans/goals were ALL Bertha's. I wonder if he may start to feel lonely and isolated. Be interesting to see where this leads.

I'm curious about the Russell's background, where they each grew up, how they met, how they amassed their wealth, etc. 

[blackwing]

18 minutes ago, rollacoaster said:

That is something I appreciate about Bertha. She is at all times unabashedly herself. She is direct and straightforward about what she wants and expects. She does not simper or pretend or act sanctimonious. She calls bullshit when she sees it. Is she arrogant and hard, and stuck up and always thinks she's right? Absolutely. Is she a nice person or even a good person? Probably not. Does she hate when people look down on her? For sure. Will she look down on others when given the opportunity? Oh, yes. 

I mean, I wouldn't want her for my bestie, but, she is honest and real in a world filled with folk hiding deep ugliness behind smiles and simpers and false piety and compassion. You always know where you stand with her. Basically, if you don't screw with her or stand in her way, she won't screw with you. 

******************************************

I'm seeing the set up for a rift between George and Bertha. For all his ruthlessness, he does seem to have warm spots for old friends and family. He inquired about  inviting old friends and family to their home, and is concerned about Bertha's treatment of Gladys. And he was very clear that the social climbing plans/goals were ALL Bertha's. I wonder if he may start to feel lonely and isolated. Be interesting to see where this leads.

I'm curious about the Russell's background, where they each grew up, how they met, how they amassed their wealth, etc. 

I call it as it is as well... and from where I stand, she is a huge beeyotch and an enormous hypocrite.  She wants people to recognise her standing and to treat her as one of them.  Yet she doesn't afford the same to others in return.  I don't think she is honest and real at all.  I think she is calculating and cunning and doesn't care who gets hurt in the process.

What did poor Archie ever do to her?  You said that she won't screw with people who don't screw with her.  Was it so wrong of Archie to pay attention to her beautiful, eligible daughter?  His family is wealthy and of the right place in society.  They have connections and have intimate ties to the Newport set.  Why was it necessary for Bertha and George to destroy his life?  They basically forced him into taking a job with the guys building the Panama Canal (which likely means he has to move to Panama, at least temporarily) and threatened that if he did not do so, they would make sure he never worked in finance ever again.

Sure, you can make excuses for her by saying she is just trying to do what she thinks is best for her daughter and wanted to get rid of an intrusive suitor that she didn't approve of... but clearly that's not what the daughter wanted.

What about her sister?  She seems to have dropped her sister for some unknown (and probably unfounded) reason.  What about all of her old friends?  They now reside in the "undesirable" areas of New York and therefore she thinks they are too lowly for her.  What did any of these people do to her?  They haven't screwed her at all.  They are trying to still be her friend and she has coldly excised them from her life.

I know that this show has been renewed already for Season 2, so there is more to come.  But my dream scenario would have the series eventually end with the Russells losing their fortune and having to depend on the kindness of others.  Gladys will have been married off to a Duke in England, she has an unhappy marriage and divorces him and comes back to marry into a rich New Money family.  Larry and Marian get married.  The penniless George and Bertha will have to subsist on handouts from Gladys and the Van Rhijn money.

As it is, I find it impossible to root for Bertha and George, especially after what they did to Archie.  I'm rooting for their kids to escape their tyranny.

[MissLucas]

29 minutes ago, blackwing said:

What did poor Archie ever do to her?  You said that she won't screw with people who don't screw with her.  Was it so wrong of Archie to pay attention to her beautiful, eligible daughter?  His family is wealthy and of the right place in society.  They have connections and have intimate ties to the Newport set.  Why was it necessary for Bertha and George to destroy his life?  They basically forced him into taking a job with the guys building the Panama Canal (which likely means he has to move to Panama, at least temporarily) and threatened that if he did not do so, they would make sure he never worked in finance ever again.

Just playing Devil's advocate here. Archie was meeting and corresponding with a girl/young woman who was not officially out. He did both without having been introduced to her parents first and also without their knowledge. Those are big No Nos and I'm surprised it was never mentioned. At age 24 Archie would have known those rules.

Not saying Archie deserved what he got, but Bertha had reasons to take against him despite his pedigree.

[LegalParrot81]

Quote

What about all of her old friends?  They now reside in the "undesirable" areas of New York and therefore she thinks they are too lowly for her.  What did any of these people do to her?  They haven't screwed her at all.  They are trying to still be her friend and she has coldly excised them from her life.

Early on when George asked her about seeing their old friends, Bertha was honest when she said "I want new friends".  Bertha is unabashedly a social climber.  I have no doubt she has left a trail of forgotten friendships with each wrung of the ladder she's gone up.  

I also have little doubt that she will be looking for a titled gentleman for Gladys, it helps Bertha continue to climb, but at the moment, Gladys has not had her proper coming out, so she's basically off limits.  

[Carolina Girl]

16 hours ago, Noneofyourbusiness said:

 

Yes, Archie's family has history, as Gladys mentioned last episode, and we learned this episode that they even have an in with the Astors already. The inescapable conclusion is that Bertha wants Gladys to marry a noble, because that's the only thing grander than what she just sabotaged.

Wonder what will happen when Archie goes back to his parents and tells them about George's blackmail?  Wonder if his darling mum won't mention to Mrs. Astor that apparently her boy wasn't good enough for the potato-digger's granddaughter.  Won't sit well.  And it will be interesting if Mrs. Astor does learn of this BEFORE Ward can put her over.  I don't know how close this time period is to McAllister's Fall from Grace.

Hopefully in the coming weeks we will learn why Archie was unsuitable.  I can't believe one meeting in hotel lobby with the governess nearby and a letter (the contents of which are still a mystery, yes?) eliminated him from consideration.   

As a side note, I rewatched "The Age of Innocence", which is supposed to be taking place in the decade before this one.  I noticed that some of the characters do speak in this rather formal, stilted manner in some scenes.  However, they are better actors than Ms. Jacobsen and are able to pull it off.  

15 hours ago, Hiyo said:

If not that, then married off to someone from an old money family.

Actually, I think this is what Gladys has in mind for her SON.  

[peachmangosteen]

4 hours ago, Sarah 103 said:

You have no idea how much better this makes me feel. It's fantastic knowing I'm not the only one who is having trouble learning the names and jobs of the downstairs people in both houses. 

I still don't know the names of like at least 70% of the characters. And even the ones I do know I tend to mostly forget until I read them here.

[PRgal]

53 minutes ago, peachmangosteen said:

I still don't know the names of like at least 70% of the characters. And even the ones I do know I tend to mostly forget until I read them here.

Same here.  I get most of the help confused.  

[rollacoaster]

2 hours ago, blackwing said:

I call it as it is as well... and from where I stand, she is a huge beeyotch and an enormous hypocrite.  She wants people to recognise her standing and to treat her as one of them.  Yet she doesn't afford the same to others in return.  I don't think she is honest and real at all.  I think she is calculating and cunning and doesn't care who gets hurt in the process.

She is absolutely a HUUUUUUUUUGE conniving beeyotch. She isn't pretending to be anything else. 

[peachmangosteen]

8 minutes ago, PRgal said:

I get most of the help confused.  

Oh yea, outside of Turner I don’t know any of their names. And I get them confused also. I kept trying to figure out if the one that wanted to be Gladys’ lady maid was the same one that was molested.

[BabyBella94]

I find myself liking Agnes more than the Russells...particularly Bertha, I'm fine with George. 

[ZeeEnnui]

5 hours ago, Sarah 103 said:

You have no idea how much better this makes me feel. It's fantastic knowing I'm not the only one who is having trouble learning the names and jobs of the downstairs people in both houses. 

I'm with you. It's so confusing trying to keep the downstairs households straight. Fellowes is borrowing some of the magic from Downton but it doesn't work here. You had one family the Crawley's so we as viewers go to know the upstairs and downstairs equally. Here you've got old money and new money, and it's like playing a game of Musical Servants. I almost wonder if it would have been better to just focus first on the Old vs. New $$ and then slowly start introducing the downstairs over the course of the season, and maybe spending more time on their stories in season two so we weren't overwhelmed by ALL of the characters. Like a fine wine, plots need to breathe. 

I would LOVE a spin-off of the Scott family with the exploration of Black Harlem during this period.

[MissLucas]

1 hour ago, peachmangosteen said:

Oh yea, outside of Turner I don’t know any of their names. And I get them confused also. I kept trying to figure out if the one that wanted to be Gladys’ lady maid was the same one that was molested.

Adelheid is the newly minted lady's maid in the Russell household. The molested maid is Bridget, she belongs to the Van Rhijn household and has an Irish accent (of course she does with that name). 

[Affogato]

2 hours ago, BabyBella94 said:

I find myself liking Agnes more than the Russells...particularly Bertha, I'm fine with George. 

This is close to …. Look he has been utterly ruthless. And he could have handled gladys’ beau differently, too. He is a man and entitled. So much easier to forgive?

i agree that Agnes, Ada, Marion and nsybe Peggy are the only nice people and Agnes has learned to be not nicecwhen she needs to. 

Edited February 24, 2022 by Affogato

[Sarah 103]

6 hours ago, Roseanna said:

Larry is a man, so he can marry later than Gladys. And actually, he is now quite young, having just ended his university studies. He works for his father (at least we are told so, we aren't seen it) but hasn't achieved anything himself.

Also, as a man Larry has a complete freedom to move and meet his friends (and possibly actresses and dancers). Bertha can't control him and she doesn't even try it.

I agree with all of this. Also, men often married later/older than women. It wasn't unusual to have an age gap with a slightly older man marrying a slightly younger woman. He would have established himself and could demonstrate that he would be able to take care of her and support her. (At least, this was the theory. It didn't always work out in practice).

5 hours ago, blackwing said:

They basically forced him into taking a job with the guys building the Panama Canal (which likely means he has to move to Panama, at least temporarily) and threatened that if he did not do so, they would make sure he never worked in finance ever again.

Archie isn't actually going to be picking up a shovel or operating machinery. He is in finance and will be spending most of his time in an office in New York City. I highly doubt he will ever visit Panama much less move there. Maybe he will go to the grand opening, but that's it. 

[Hotellanai]

On 2/22/2022 at 8:03 AM, Yeah No said:

But that was her father, not her.  I think it's out of character and incongruent for a woman who is being written as so concerned with appearances and so restrictive about who can belong to high society to take what could be an unpopular stand about such things.  After all, how would it look?  She doesn't seem at all concerned about that.  Most people have unexpected aspects to them, I'm just having to stretch to buy that one with her.  That's on the writers for writing her that way, but I'm willing to suspend some disbelief.  People can often seem contrary to themselves.

The Upper Classes are all about the semblance of propriety and "niceness."  This IS the North and yes, Black people who probably were never enslaved will walk amongst them.  The Upper Class Whites are fine with that because there are SO FEW Black people and very few Black people of means (dressed correctly and able to mix socially).  Honestly, we are only 13.6% of the total US population TODAY!  I have met many parents of my schoolmates while growing up.  While my parents fit in with the Upper Classes, I was frequently the only one or one of two at social gatherings and of course at (private, nonsectarian) school.  It was the same in (private) college.  The parents and children seem to have the freedom to accept you as they would anyone else.  Why?  Because Black people (and especially ones with money) are not a threat - there just aren't that many people like me in those spaces. 

Later in life, the only racism I encountered personally came from people with very "new" money or in lower classes.  It sounds weird to talk about in 2022, but it's true.  I DID threaten these types of people for some reason and they had not been raised with the same social customs as the Upper Classes (and old moneyed).  So, it is not odd that Peggy isn't being insulted (or grossly threatened) to her face.  Now, if she were in the Midwest or South, she might need to be chaperoned because rapes were a distinct problem for Black women of some means after slavery until the 1930s (documented in newspapers and books).  I think this might be why the Scotts want Peggy safely married and around her own environment.  Even today, Black parents of all stripes ALWAYS keep a watchful eye out for their children.  That is one of the major reasons we have survived.

[Yeah No]

46 minutes ago, Hotellanai said:

The Upper Classes are all about the semblance of propriety and "niceness."  This IS the North and yes, Black people who probably were never enslaved will walk amongst them.  The Upper Class Whites are fine with that because there are SO FEW Black people and very few Black people of means (dressed correctly and able to mix socially).  Honestly, we are only 13.6% of the total US population TODAY!  I have met many parents of my schoolmates while growing up.  While my parents fit in with the Upper Classes, I was frequently the only one or one of two at social gatherings and of course at (private, nonsectarian) school.  It was the same in (private) college.  The parents and children seem to have the freedom to accept you as they would anyone else.  Why?  Because Black people (and especially ones with money) are not a threat - there just aren't that many people like me in those spaces. 

Later in life, the only racism I encountered personally came from people with very "new" money or in lower classes.  It sounds weird to talk about in 2022, but it's true.  I DID threaten these types of people for some reason and they had not been raised with the same social customs as the Upper Classes (and old moneyed).  So, it is not odd that Peggy isn't being insulted (or grossly threatened) to her face.  Now, if she were in the Midwest or South, she might need to be chaperoned because rapes were a distinct problem for Black women of some means after slavery until the 1930s (documented in newspapers and books).  I think this might be why the Scotts want Peggy safely married and around her own environment.  Even today, Black parents of all stripes ALWAYS keep a watchful eye out for their children.  That is one of the major reasons we have survived.

I know you probably won't believe me but your post is very similar to what I have been thinking all day and thinking about posting.  I find it amazing that we were thinking so similarly in just about every way.  And yes, the old money would not see a lone black person as a threat especially if they acted like they "knew their place" and Peggy is very careful to keep up that appearance while in their presence.  What I find ingenious is that instead of making Peggy a servant Fellowes made her a secretary.  It was still subservient enough in the eyes of the white society ladies to pass without raising too much of an eyebrow, but not too typical and demeaning to rob her of her self respect.  I read that Denée Benton requested that her character NOT be portrayed as a servant, but the show still found a way to make her character seem plausible and acceptable to the society women of the time.  Ingenious.

Also, it is true that a lot of the society women at the time were descended from New England abolitionists so their attitude was decidedly not like the South, plus I read in an article addressing the realism in this show that there was some evidence of letter writing going on in the suffragette movement between white and black women.  A lot of those women were quite ahead of their times.  My grandmother, who was born in NYC to a family of such New England abolitionists in 1898 was taught to view black people as equals and she passed her values down to my father who often told me stories about how she didn't just talk the talk but walked the walk.  Unfortunately she died before I was born so I never had the pleasure of meeting her.

[Hiyo]

Quote

Not saying Archie deserved what he got, but Bertha had reasons to take against him despite his pedigree.

Archie could have done everything perfectly, and by the book, and I have the feeling Bertha would have rejected him since his pedigree wasn't good enough for her Gladys.

Quote

I almost wonder if it would have been better to just focus first on the Old vs. New $$ and then slowly start introducing the downstairs over the course of the season, and maybe spending more time on their stories in season two so we weren't overwhelmed by ALL of the characters.

I do sometimes think it have been better to pull a Bridgerton and focus each season on a different group of people in the Gilded Age while still keeping it in the same universe. Have season 1 focus mostly on the new money versus the old money. Season 2 can focus on Peggy and what Black life in NYC was like back then. Season 3 can be about the servants. Season 4 about new immigrant arrivals. Etc.

[Roseanna]

12 hours ago, Pop Tart said:

I see both sides of the argument regarding the Russells' parenting and Bertha as good or bad mom.

Gladys is 17 and Archie is the very first boy/man she's met at all, so it's not bad guidance to tell her to put on the breaks. Gladys had sort of put them in a corner by her secretly going out to meet Archie (how did she even meet him, do we know?), so that her parents had to take it a bit more seriously. Of course Bertha and George, as they do with most things, come in with a sledgehammer where a toy hammer might do.

It certainly could have been handled more kindly, to say the least, but it's not wrong to think that it's much too soon to settle on this one person she's met.

I agree. Marrying at 17, Gladys would have moved "from nursery to nursery".

We can't even know if she is really in love with Archie or if she sees him a way out of her home. She believes marriage makes her "free" and lacks any idea what it's to take the responsibilities of wife, mother and mistress of the house.

11 hours ago, blackwing said:

My biggest issue was the way George had absolutely no qualms about ruining Archie's life. 

Losing a girl he fancied at 24 doesn't mean that Archie's life is ruined, if he has any stamina. He will probably fall in love again.

We have already seen that there is graver trials in life. Marian lost her father and had to live at her aunt's house. Mrs Morris lost her husband, house and fortune. 

8 hours ago, rollacoaster said:

And he was very clear that the social climbing plans/goals were ALL Bertha's.

He said that it was Bertha's aim when they married, but we have seen otherwise: they are partners who support each other and benefit from the other's success. Mr Russell asked his wife to invite Mr and Morris to diner, and Bertha's charity helps Mr Russell's business (lately Red Cross). 

7 hours ago, MissLucas said:

Just playing Devil's advocate here. Archie was meeting and corresponding with a girl/young woman who was not officially out. He did both without having been introduced to her parents first and also without their knowledge. Those are big No Nos and I'm surprised it was never mentioned. At age 24 Archie would have known those rules.

Not saying Archie deserved what he got, but Bertha had reasons to take against him despite his pedigree.

Yes. Why is only Raikes criticized for breaking the rules but Archie is not? Because Raikes is not "in" and Archie is?

6 hours ago, Carolina Girl said:

Wonder what will happen when Archie goes back to his parents and tells them about George's blackmail?  Wonder if his darling mum won't mention to Mrs. Astor that apparently her boy wasn't good enough for the potato-digger's granddaughter.  Won't sit well.  And it will be interesting if Mrs. Astor does learn of this BEFORE Ward can put her over.  I don't know how close this time period is to McAllister's Fall from Grace.

Archie will tell anything to anybody - he is too shamed to be utterly humiliated. 

There is no chance he can get Gladys. He doesn't miss his chances to become rich as well - as we have seen, Mr Russell would ruthlessly revenge any gossip.