S01.E05: Charity Has Two Functions

[Roseanna]

1 hour ago, eleanorofaquitaine said:

it's not like either is trying to champion her to Mrs. Astor or what have you. So we are still seeing racism in action, it's just more subtle than overt. 

Of course there was racism (even more irl), but not even a White secretary or a journalist (both middle class jobs) would be accepted as equal by the society.

BTV, Agnes respects Peggy, but she still eats with servants. 

[Roseanna]

32 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Also it seems like the characters Austen wrote about were known by everyone before they walked into a room. There's a difference between not going on and on about yourself and nobody knowing exactly how this person came to be standing in their drawing room.

Mrs Elton in Emma was unknown to all when she married Mr Elton. She was shown to be ill-mannered because she, although knowing not to speak about herself, spoke about her relatives whom nobody knew.

[Roseanna]

2 hours ago, izabella said:

Poor Gladys.  She was so happy when the housekeeper asked her if she would like the young maid as a ladies' maid.  "This is the first time anyone has asked me what I think about anything having to do with me!" or something like that.   #FreeGladys!

That was one more example how Gladys thinks only about herself. it didn't enter her head that nobody has ever asked the maid about her opinions!

If Marian is naive, Gladys is such ten times more. She just isn't capable to manage as "free". 

[Bean421]

12 hours ago, Straycat80 said:

I still want to know what this big secret is between Peggy and her father. 
 

Dollars to doughnuts Peggy has a baby out in the world. Too many references to her "living" life this episode. 

[sistermagpie]

2 minutes ago, Roseanna said:

Mrs Elton in Emma was unknown to all when she married Mr Elton. She was shown to be ill-mannered because she, although knowing not to speak about herself, spoke about her relatives whom nobody knew.

But that's the type of distinction I'm making. They know she's Mrs. Elton and that Mr. Elton has married a suitable person, which is what they need to know. Mr. Elton knows who her family is. 

 

3 minutes ago, Roseanna said:

That was one more example how Gladys thinks only about herself. it didn't enter her head that nobody has ever asked the maid about her opinions!

 

TBF, the maid got to choose to go to the show with the other guy and tell him she didn't want to be involved with him romantically. She's also becoming a ladies' maid because she said she wanted to do that.

[Pop Tart]

10 hours ago, KarenX said:

The adult Russells were super harsh to the Bolton Boy but wow. He did kind of fail a character test, and not by picking a career over love. He was luring the Gladys to hotels for secret congress. And OK, he’ll be wealthy but also far away. I wonder if there is some historical easter egg of this guy dying of yellow fever, too.

Do we know how they even met in the first place? I get young love and all that, but not great idea on either of their parts.

I kind of love the ruthless Russells, but that was a pretty brutal scene between Russell and Bolton - just on a power/maturity level alone.

An interesting article from Town and Country about Mrs. Astor and how she went up against the government when she was having designer dresses brought in from overseas (and not paying proper taxes). Interesting in and of itself, but also interesting in that one of the dresses is very reminiscent of something Marian wore in this ep. Wonder if this is where the wardrobe dept got the idea? 

https://www.townandcountrymag.com/society/money-and-power/a38952075/caroline-astors-gown-scandal/

2 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

TBF, the maid got to choose to go to the show with the other guy and tell him she didn't want to be involved with him romantically. She's also becoming a ladies' maid because she said she wanted to do that.

I think the maid that went to the show with the footman was in the Van Rhygn household. 

[sistermagpie]

3 minutes ago, Pop Tart said:

Do we know how they even met in the first place? I get young love and all that, but not great idea on either of their parts.

I kind of love the ruthless Russells, but that was a pretty brutal scene between Russell and Bolton - just on a power/maturity level alone.

An interesting article from Town and Country about Mrs. Astor and how she went up against the government when she was having designer dresses brought in from overseas (and not paying proper taxes). Interesting in and of itself, but also interesting in that one of the dresses is very reminiscent of something Marian wore in this ep. Wonder if this is where the wardrobe dept got the idea? 

https://www.townandcountrymag.com/society/money-and-power/a38952075/caroline-astors-gown-scandal/

I think the maid that went to the show with the footman was in the Van Rhygn household. 

D'oh! I totally can't keep the downstairs people straight though. That was the Irish maid and this woman isn't Irish (that is, she's not Irish from Ireland--not sure beyond that). But she did put herself forward as ladies' maid.

[dmc]

Re Racism:

If you are watching this show and are like where is the racism?  Chances are, you don’t know what racism is when you see it.  As a minority, I can tell you it’s here. I have been very critical of the writing on this show but that is being done correctly. Racism is frequently subtle. It can be not subtle too but more often than not… it little things or micro aggressions.  All the characters on this show are various levels of racist with the exclusion of Peggy and her family.  
 

I’m actually astounded they are handling it well.  

Edited February 22, 2022 by dmc

[sistermagpie]

6 minutes ago, dmc said:

Re Racism:

If you are watching this show and are like where is the racism?  Chances are, you don’t know what racism is when you see it.  As a minority, I can tell you it’s here. I have been very critical of the writing on this show but that is being done correctly. Racism is frequently subtle but it’s still here. All the characters are this show are various levels of racist with the exclusion of Peggy and her family.  
 

I’m actually astounded they are handling it well.  

Just to be clear, it's not that I don't see the subtle racism. What seems unlikely is that it stays as subtle as it is at a time when the white people would probably be a lot more explicitly and casually racist. But otoh I get why that would be its own problem, because what would be seen as unremarkable in that time period would probably read as way more hostile and psycho than it would watching it today. I don't think the show would be improved with more n-words.

[dmc]

22 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Just to be clear, it's not that I don't see the subtle racism. What seems unlikely is that it stays as subtle as it is at a time when the white people would probably be a lot more explicitly and casually racist. But otoh I get why that would be its own problem, because what would be seen as unremarkable in that time period would probably read as way more hostile and psycho than it would watching it today. I don't think the show would be improved with more n-words.

I didn’t see your comment so I wasn’t speaking specifically to you.  I actually didn’t know what you wrote when I left this comment.  

I absolutely understand what you’re saying though and I think that would getting away from the narrative they’re trying to tell.  This is not a show about a black woman trying to make it the Gilded Age.  It’s very much an ensemble cast.  And if no one spoke to Peggy there’s not going to be much of a show. Unless they completely separate the cast and have the black family doing their own thing in Brooklyn . So they added the racism that you would see today.  

I think that was probably the wisest course of action. The only other alternative is to completely ignore it.

Edited February 22, 2022 by dmc

[tennisgurl]

I don't trust Mr. Raikes at all, especially after he tried to get Marian in a rather compromising situation, no way was that even close to appropriate. You would think a man of that time and class would never have even tried that, especially so early in their potential relationship, if his intentions were honorable. I am starting to suspect that, as her fathers lawyer, he knows something about her finances that she doesn't, and wants to put a ring on it and get access to it before she finds out that she's worth something and can aim higher in a potential match.

I honestly feel bad for Marian as a character, she's stuck in the unenviable position as audience surrogate who mostly exists to have the rules of society explained to her so that they can be explained to the audience. That means she doesn't get a whole lot of time to really shine as a character, she's mostly here to react to the quirks of society and the more colorful characters, which sucks for her as she doesn't get a lot to do on her own. That's probably why her scenes with Peggy are some of her best, she doesn't really need to exist just as an exposition dump, she can be her own character. She still isn't that interesting, but she at least shows more spark. Unfortunately most of her other notable personality traits seem to be being unable to read a room, and falling for a very suspicious man. 

I know that Anne Morris is grieving, but she is being a real pill. She's acting like George personally walked up to her husband and shot him in the head. Lets not forget, he tried to do the exact same thing to George before George turned it around on him, he played the game and he lost. 

Poor Gladys. Bertha might think she's looking out for her, especially if Bertha was once from a poor family and never wants that for her kids, but this is probably going to just hurt Gladys in the long run. I suspect that Bertha might be looking for something across the pond for Gladys, someone with a fancy title and a giant old house. 

Clara Barton was really cool, I loved her pragmatism when it came to getting money from the elite. She knows most of them are giving to her charity more for invites to the best balls than from the goodness of their hearts, but she doesn't care, her patients still get the help no matter the motive of the people giving her the money. No one dying of burn wounds is going to care if the medicine that's going to save them was bought by someone with a scandalous reputation.

"Ms. Turner is no nun." *sips tea*

[Noneofyourbusiness]

43 minutes ago, Pop Tart said:

I kind of love the ruthless Russells, but that was a pretty brutal scene between Russell and Bolton - just on a power/maturity level alone.

Baldwin. He's not from the Dreadfort, lol.

I think Archie made a mistake. If he had refused George's offer and told everyone about it, he and Gladys would still have had a chance to change George's mind by showing their determination over a long period of time, and Larry would have been on their side. And I, personally, would rather die poor with love and integrity than live rich without them, since there'd be no point in being alive at all then. Taking the offer shows that he wasn't the right guy for Gladys after all. But it's still an awful trick to pull because that's not why Bertha and George did it.

1 hour ago, Affogato said:

they are really pushing Gladys. Will she discover her inner George or Bertha? Oh, I hope so.

I wonder if Mr Morris killed himself to leave his family, or at least his wife, with some assets. If he stayed alive she would have ended up on the streets? 

I hope so, too. Someone needs to point out to Bertha that she herself wouldn't have accepted this level of controlling behavior from her parents. At least, I have a hard time picturing her doing so.

Gladys is older than she's being made to look, and she's being kept in a box. And as was said earlier on the thread, not letting her be introduced to society at her age is setting her up to be taken advantage of by the first man who offers her attention and an out. Bertha should be asking Aurora for help getting attendees for Gladys's coming out ball.

Larry also needs to do more. George said he would start at his company "right away", let's either see that or show that he's uncertain about what he wants his career to be, as was implied when Oscar dined with them, and have him looking at some options. Let's see George giving him business and/or life advice. Let's see him and Oscar at their club and not just hear about it. Let's have him associate with Marian and have him Mr Raikes butt heads. Right now, it seems like he and Marian just get the Meet Cute at the beginning of the season, then Raikes woos and disappoints her, and Larry comes back in afterwards to console her despite not having interacted with her during her and Raikes's courtship.

I don't see how Morris's dying leaves his family with more assets than they'd have if he were alive. There's no such thing as suicide insurance, and regular life insurance doesn't apply if you commit suicide. And dying doesn't put a freeze on your company losing money or your family's house being foreclosed. No, he just took the coward's way out.

.

[Noneofyourbusiness]

2 hours ago, eleanorofaquitaine said:

Peggy herself was probably born free (or has no memory of slavery, if she was born into it, but my guess is that her parents were already free by the time she was born).

We know from behind the scenes that her father was a freedman who moved to Brooklyn, and her mother was never enslaved. I imagine that most likely her mother already lived in Brooklyn and met her father when he came there. Her father would either have escaped slavery or been freed by the Union victory and then moved there.

8 hours ago, Roseanna said:

It's noteworthy that this was the first time we actually saw Archie. We were clearly denied a chance to root for him which may have happened if his meetings with Gladys would have shown.

Yes, that's a good point.

12 hours ago, ZeeEnnui said:

I was hoping that Peggy was going to stay strong and keep shutting out Gilded Age Karen, but the show can't have real consequences for the cast sheet's least valuable member apparently.

I realize you're being hyperbolic, but Marian was being racist in the opposite way to a Karen with her misguided and condescending assumption that a black family would need her magical charity. Karens actively hate black people and call the police on them for walking on the same sidewalk or in the same park as they are, they don't want to "help" them.

.

[sistermagpie]

6 minutes ago, dmc said:

I didn’t see your comment so I wasn’t speaking specifically to you.  I actually didn’t know what you wrote when I left this comment.  

Oh, no problem--I didn't think you were speaking directly to me. I just think the subject is interesting--that is, how people decide presenting stuff like this in period shows.

8 minutes ago, dmc said:

I absolutely understand what you’re saying though and I think that would getting away from the narrative they’re trying to tell.  This is not a show about a black woman trying to make it the Gilded Age.  It’s very much an ensemble cast.  And if no one spoke to Peggy there’s not going to be much of a show. Unless they completely separate the cast and have the black family doing their own thing in Brooklyn . So they added the racism that you would see today.  

I think that was probably the wisest course of action. The only other alternative is to completely ignore it.

I do agree with that. I also always think of a thing I read back in the 90s where there was a production of Showboat that some people criticized for changing its book. But I agreed with something I read where the person said that in changing the book (making it less racist by modern standards) it was actually keeping it closer to the author's intentions anyway, because it came across totally different than it would.

So yeah, totally agree that it's better to have Peggy be able to just move around freely as a character without racism overshadowing (instead of just being in the background of her every move). The only time it bugs me a little is that I feel like Fellowes believes that while the upper classes can be flawed, they would never be vulger, and this would be part of it.

6 minutes ago, Noneofyourbusiness said:

I think Archie made a mistake. If he had refused George's offer and told everyone about it, he and Gladys would still have had a chance to change George's mind by showing their determination over a long period of time, and Larry would have been on their side. And I, personally, would rather die poor with love and integrity than live rich without them, since there'd be no point in being alive at all then. Taking the offer shows that he wasn't the right guy for Gladys after all. But it's still an awful trick to pull because that's not why Bertha and George did it.

1 hour ago, Affogato said:

I can't honestly think Archie made a mistake at all. If he didn't take the offer, George was going to ruin his chance to support himself at all, and he wasn't ever going to marry Gladys that way anyway. His in-laws would destroy him at every turn. Sure it proved he wasn't so madly in love with Gladys that he was willing to be that much of an outcast, but nobody on the show probably would either. If Gladys comes with those parents, there's no hope no matter what.

2 minutes ago, Noneofyourbusiness said:

I realize you're being hyperbolic, but Marian was being racist in the opposite way to a Karen with her misguided and condescending assumption that a black family would need her magical charity. Karens actively hate black people and call the police on them for walking on the same sidewalk or in the same park as they are, they don't want to "help" them.

 

And Karens get angrier when their racism is pointed out. They never apologize.

[Noneofyourbusiness]

14 hours ago, SnazzyDaisy said:

Dress like you’re already famous! 😂

Marian has the same dress sense as Marquis Jet with his "purple hair and Joker couture", lol.

.

[iMonrey]

How old is Agnes supposed to be? Taissa Farmiga is 28. Would she really be wearing her hair down like that? I'd have thought a girl her age would be wearing her hair up. It looks a hot mess. I suppose the show is trying to emphasize her immaturity but I found it distracting.

Nathan Lane feels like stunt casting. It really took me out of the scene. Kind of like when Shirley MacLaine was on Downton Abbey. 

Once again, we get some tacked-on, half-baked subplot for one of the servants. These one-and-done peripherals feel like pointless distractions. Nothing ever comes from them. Ten bucks says we never see Mrs. Armstrong's mother again. 

[eleanorofaquitaine]

Yeah, I can't really blame Archie nor do I think he was failing a character test. He was being given an offer he can't refuse (it's no mistake that Scorsese did a movie on the Gilded Age and called it the most brutal world he had ever examined). He was being told that if he didn't give things up with Gladys, his entire life (and hers) would be destroyed. He didn’t fail that character test, IMO, George did.

Given that the origins of this show started as a prequel to Downton, I suspect this will end up with Bertha engineering a marriage between Gladys and some down-on-his-luck member of the British aristocracy. That's what she's angling for. (The thing that doesn't ring true to me about that is that someone of Irish ancestry - even someone with Bertha's wealth - wouldn't exactly be looking at the British through rose-colored glasses in this period. But I am not sure if Fellowes is that sensitive to that part of Irish-American history).

[Pj3422]

Oh my! With her Gilded Age hair and wardrobe, Mrs. Burns looks like Lizzie Borden! 

 

[AZChristian]

10 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

Once again, we get some tacked-on, half-baked subplot for one of the servants. These one-and-done peripherals feel like pointless distractions. Nothing ever comes from them. Ten bucks says we never see Mrs. Armstrong's mother again. 

I'll take that bet.  She may not have any dialogue, but I bet they'll show her dead body.  LOL.

[Affogato]

8 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

How old is Agnes supposed to be? Taissa Farmiga is 28. Would she really be wearing her hair down like that? I'd have thought a girl her age would be wearing her hair up. It looks a hot mess. I suppose the show is trying to emphasize her immaturity but I found it distracting.

 

I’m pretty sure when you come out you are allowed different hair styles and clothing.  Having her hair in a childish do would be because she is still a child. 
 

One of the plots is Bertha is not letting her come out and she is tired of it. 

[caitmcg]

24 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

How old is [Gladys] supposed to be? Taissa Farmiga is 28. Would she really be wearing her hair down like that? I'd have thought a girl her age would be wearing her hair up. It looks a hot mess. I suppose the show is trying to emphasize her immaturity but I found it distracting

We can assume Gladys is north of 18, since she’s already supposed to be out in society, age-wise, but not by much. Bertha's controlling her look as well as her life, and keeping her styled like a younger girl, infantilizing her.

Edited to add: Gladys is not, in fact, a child to anyone but Bertha. George and Larry have both insisted that she is an adult and should already be out.

All three actors playing the younger women (Marian, Peggy, Gladys) are playing characters eight to ten years younger than they, themselves are.

Edited February 22, 2022 by caitmcg

[AntFTW]

4 hours ago, Roseanna said:

BTV, Agnes respects Peggy, but she still eats with servants. 

In context, that's understandable because Peggy is staff. She is not a member of the household. The staff lives and eats in their quarters, even the white staff. Peggy eats with the servants not because she's black, but because she's an employee.

As a guest (which I think she was in the first episode)... she ate with the servants because she was black.

Edited February 22, 2022 by AntFTW

[BingeyKohan]

11 minutes ago, Pj3422 said:

Oh my! With her Gilded Age hair and wardrobe, Mrs. Burns looks like Lizzie Borden! 

 

Wait, who is this? It looks like the woman who works for the Russells who finagled that ladies'-maid role for Glady's new helper (and who is also kindly all up in Michael Cerveris's business).

[Pj3422]

Just now, BingeyKohan said:

Wait, who is this? It looks like the woman who works for the Russells who finagled that ladies'-maid role for Glady's new helper (and who is also kindly all up in Michael Cerveris's business).

Exactly! The woman in the picture is Lizzie Borden. The one who finagled the ladies’ maid role is Mrs. Burns. 

[BingeyKohan]

3 minutes ago, Pj3422 said:

Exactly! The woman in the picture is Lizzie Borden. The one who finagled the ladies’ maid role is Mrs. Burns. 

oh, duh. sorry! A Gilded Age who's on first.

Edited February 22, 2022 by BingeyKohan

[Roseanna]

34 minutes ago, Noneofyourbusiness said:

I think Archie made a mistake. If he had refused George's offer and told everyone about it, he and Gladys would still have had a chance to change George's mind by showing their determination over a long period of time, and Larry would have been on their side. And I, personally, would rather die poor with love and integrity than live rich without them, since there'd be no point in being alive at all then. Taking the offer shows that he wasn't the right guy for Gladys after all. But it's still an awful trick to pull because that's not why Bertha and George did it.

 

23 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

I can't honestly think Archie made a mistake at all. If he didn't take the offer, George was going to ruin his chance to support himself at all, and he wasn't ever going to marry Gladys that way anyway. His in-laws would destroy him at every turn. Sure it proved he wasn't so madly in love with Gladys that he was willing to be that much of an outcast, but nobody on the show probably would either. If Gladys comes with those parents, there's no hope no matter what.

 

11 minutes ago, eleanorofaquitaine said:

Yeah, I can't really blame Archie nor do I think he was failing a character test. He was being given an offer he can't refuse (it's no mistake that Scorsese did a movie on the Gilded Age and called it the most brutal world he had ever examined). He was being told that if he didn't give things up with Gladys, his entire life (and hers) would be destroyed. He didn’t fail that character test, IMO, George did.

In that class and age most men would have put their career, position and wealth before love.

I don't think it's a good basis on marriage, if the other party has offered all else.

In any case, Archie is too young (24 years old) to be quite  sure that he wouldn't have repented later.  

[eleanorofaquitaine]

I don't even think he was putting career, position, and wealth before love (though I agree that the concept of a love match is pretty new). He was being told that his entire livelihood was at risk if he pursued Gladys. It would have been one thing if George had said, "I am not going to help you out if you pursue Gladys, now do you want to marry her?" It's another thing for George to say, "I am going to destroy your ability to survive," which is essentially what he did.

 

[KarenX]

Archie is not some teen just getting started. He knew better than to secretly woo the rich girl (to marry rich) but he did it anyway (to compromise her? not sure). George acknowledged this need/desire of his to be rich, and let the kid decide which way he wanted to do it.

I’m sure he thought she was just swell. Let’s say he gave up his job and career for Gladys. Do we think he loves this rich girl enough to live off her money and have no career of his own? Do we think he has the gusto to leave one career behind and forge a brand new one for himself? Does he have enough bravery and spirit?

George gave him a chance to demonstrate true love and grit. The guy saw it. He opted for safety.
 

Gladys may be against her mother more than ever now but Bertha also kind of bought her off too with a Ladies’ Maid concession. Archie was truly Nothing Special. Gladys could get over him in a heart beat if she is allowed to go out. Gladys’s potential for angry rebellion is a form of managing up. She’s not bad at this game that her mother is playing.

[Pop Tart]

49 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

How old is Agnes supposed to be? Taissa Farmiga is 28. Would she really be wearing her hair down like that? I'd have thought a girl her age would be wearing her hair up. It looks a hot mess. I suppose the show is trying to emphasize her immaturity but I found it distracting.

Young women did not "put their hair up" until they were officially brought out, so because her mother is not ready to present her and bring her out (launch her on the social scene) she's still wearing her hair down as a young girl would.

49 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

Once again, we get some tacked-on, half-baked subplot for one of the servants. These one-and-done peripherals feel like pointless distractions. Nothing ever comes from them. Ten bucks says we never see Mrs. Armstrong's mother again. 

I don't know if we'll see her with her mother again in this season, but if the show continues for a number of seasons I'd see this more as the writers building some backstory/context for characters that could be used as subplots in succeeding seasons. I thought it was a good scene in that it gave some color to her sort of generally bitter behavior. It's more than we've got yet with Turner - who is equally bitter behaving, but with far less reason as far as we know. 

[Affogato]

3 minutes ago, Pop Tart said:

 

I don't know if we'll see her with her mother again in this season, but if the show continues for a number of seasons I'd see this more as the writers building some backstory/context for characters that could be used as subplots in succeeding seasons. I thought it was a good scene in that it gave some color to her sort of generally bitter behavior. It's more than we've got yet with Turner - who is equally bitter behaving, but with far less reason as far as we know. 

I think these stories are to provide windows into the lives of the servants.  I imagine one or two will be expanded.  

[eejm]

50 minutes ago, Affogato said:

I’m pretty sure when you come out you are allowed different hair styles and clothing.  Having her hair in a childish do would be because she is still a child. 
 

One of the plots is Bertha is not letting her come out and she is tired of it. 

Women often began wearing more adult hairstyles around the time of their confirmations, although some began later.  This is why I find Bertha's treatment of Gladys to be rather cruel.  Not only is Gladys deprived of her society debut, but she's also been forced to have a governess long past the typical age, to dress as a little girl, and even to have a child's bedtime.  Gladys may be very naive, but her mother doesn't even treat her with basic respect.

Bertha's behavior wasn't all that uncommon among aristocratic women of the time.  Alexandra, Princess of Wales treated her three daughters in much the same way.  A child's birthday party was arranged for her eldest daughter Louise - when Louise turned 19.  Louise's sister Victoria was not allowed to marry because Alexandra so wanted to keep one daughter as her companion.  Alexandra's mother-in-law, Queen Victoria, planned to do the same with her youngest daughter Beatrice.  When Beatrice did find a man to marry, Victoria was furious and the two spoke only by notes for several months.  Even after Victoria came around Beatrice and her husband were still not allowed to have their own home.  Independence was almost seen as a vice among wealthy young women of the time.

Edited February 22, 2022 by eejm

[sistermagpie]

22 minutes ago, KarenX said:

Archie is not some teen just getting started. He knew better than to secretly woo the rich girl (to marry rich) but he did it anyway (to compromise her? not sure). George acknowledged this need/desire of his to be rich, and let the kid decide which way he wanted to do it.

I’m sure he thought she was just swell. Let’s say he gave up his job and career for Gladys. Do we think he loves this rich girl enough to live off her money and have no career of his own? Do we think he has the gusto to leave one career behind and forge a brand new one for himself? Does he have enough bravery and spirit?

George gave him a chance to demonstrate true love and grit. The guy saw it. He opted for safety.
 

Gladys may be against her mother more than ever now but Bertha also kind of bought her off too with a Ladies’ Maid concession. Archie was truly Nothing Special. Gladys could get over him in a heart beat if she is allowed to go out. Gladys’s potential for angry rebellion is a form of managing up. She’s not bad at this game that her mother is playing.

I agree Gladys will get over him and he's nothing special, but I think telling the guy that he's also going to not only have to make his own money but have his ability to make money taken away so that he has to start from less than nothing and find some other career beyond proving true love and grit. As much as I agree that Archie didn't love Gladys enough to suffer that much for her, and never planned on suffering for her, George was basically telling him that with these in-laws the suffering would ever end. If he had been in love with her, her parents would have eventually killed it anyway.

Would have appreciated it if he had just told Gladys the deal straight out, though.

[eleanorofaquitaine]

23 minutes ago, KarenX said:

Archie is not some teen just getting started. He knew better than to secretly woo the rich girl (to marry rich) but he did it anyway (to compromise her? not sure). George acknowledged this need/desire of his to be rich, and let the kid decide which way he wanted to do it.

I’m sure he thought she was just swell. Let’s say he gave up his job and career for Gladys. Do we think he loves this rich girl enough to live off her money and have no career of his own? Do we think he has the gusto to leave one career behind and forge a brand new one for himself? Does he have enough bravery and spirit?

George gave him a chance to demonstrate true love and grit. The guy saw it. He opted for safety.
 

Gladys may be against her mother more than ever now but Bertha also kind of bought her off too with a Ladies’ Maid concession. Archie was truly Nothing Special. Gladys could get over him in a heart beat if she is allowed to go out. Gladys’s potential for angry rebellion is a form of managing up. She’s not bad at this game that her mother is playing.

What money do you imagine she has? All of her money comes from her father. I'm hard-pressed to believe that George would be willing to provide her with anything if she went off and married Archie against George and Bertha's will.

George was serious in wanting to get Archie out of the picture because that is what Bertha wants. IMO, this wasn't about Archie failing some character test - this was about the show demonstrating how ambitious Bertha is and how far George is willing to go to fulfill those ambitions. Archie was just a poor, unfortunate young guy who happened to fall in front of their buzz saw.

[eleanorofaquitaine]

8 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Would have appreciated it if he had just told Gladys the deal straight out, though.

He didn't really need to because both Larry and Gladys figured out what happened pretty quickly. I will give George and Bertha this, they raised smart children who know exactly who their parents are.

Edited February 22, 2022 by eleanorofaquitaine

[AntFTW]

How old is Gladys? Do they ever tell us?

I imagine she's maybe 16.

[tennisgurl]

I gotta say, I wasn't sure about casting Nathan Lane as Foghorn Leghorn in a live action Looney Tunes, but he pulls it off!

[Jordan Baker]

7 hours ago, Pestilentia said:

He appears where she is and he is forever declaring his utter enchantment with the bag of 'meh' that is Marian.

I first read this as "bag of meth," which would put a whole new spin on Marian!

[rollacoaster]

3 hours ago, Roseanna said:

5 hours ago, izabella said:

Poor Gladys.  She was so happy when the housekeeper asked her if she would like the young maid as a ladies' maid.  "This is the first time anyone has asked me what I think about anything having to do with me!" or something like that.   #FreeGladys!

That was one more example how Gladys thinks only about herself. it didn't enter her head that nobody has ever asked the maid about her opinions!

If Marian is naive, Gladys is such ten times more. She just isn't capable to manage as "free". 

I don't think that an unreasonable portrayal for a character who is supposed to be a sheltered, privileged young woman who has not been allowed to make decisions for herself. Young people are frequently self absorbed. I can imagine one as rich and idle as Gladys even more so. 

I found it interesting how contemporary Gladys' reaction to her Mother's smothering felt, and also the conversation between Peggy and Marian after the hallway kiss. Well, contemporary in a 1950s kind of way, lol. 

I also chuckled at Larry's reaction to his parents' machinations. "I KNOW you!" You can see the generational difference between the parents, who have had to be hard and ruthless to to provide the comforts and privilege the children take for granted, with just how soft and easily shocked the children are. 

[MissLucas]

14 hours ago, ZeeEnnui said:

Dull-eyed Marian almost got Pamuked in the hallway! 

He! Just when I was thinking that Peggy was letting aunt Agnes down she made her well-timed entry. And I agree with those who think her secret is that her father forced her to give up her baby.

Joker outfit or not - I'm glad Marian finally got a different color palette. She's vanilla enough without all those pastels. I'm not sure what to think of her keeping in touch with Mrs Chamberlain. It's a bit of defiance that a 21st century audience can get behind. But I noticed that even though a lot of characters are outraged by Mrs Chamberlain's existence, aunt Agnes' loathing seems to reside on another level. Might have something to do with her own marriage, we know it was unhappy. Maybe there was another woman involved and Agnes blames her on the unhappiness and by proxy Mrs Chamberlain. If so this is another instance of Marian not reading the room/asking the right questions. 

1 hour ago, iMonrey said:

How old is Agnes supposed to be? Taissa Farmiga is 28. Would she really be wearing her hair down like that? I'd have thought a girl her age would be wearing her hair up. It looks a hot mess. I suppose the show is trying to emphasize her immaturity but I found it distracting.

I read somewhere that wardrobe and make-up departments went for that look to emphasize how much Bertha tries to keep her daughter back. Speaking of Bertha: just once I wish someone would counter her 'This is not what I want...'-shtick with 'What about what Gladys wants?' It wouldn't change her mind at all but it's tiresome that both Georg and Larry challenge her on Gladys but never utter that pretty obvious line. Also: sooner or later Bertha's parenting style will blow up right in her face. 

George's handling of Mr Baldwin was cold but I'm cynical enough to say the reason Mr Baldwin did not see that coming is the reason he's not ready to marry Gladys. Poor Gladys though, at least she finally got a maid plus someone in that damn house who asks her what she wants - you go Mrs Burns!

And speaking of housekeepers: Mrs Armstrong's subplot was the most intriguing of the episode. She's not a nice character and might turn out a villain but at least she's got layers unlike other villain characters. The trollop's conversation with Oscar only lacked some moustache twirling - from both of them!

Edited February 22, 2022 by MissLucas

[Carolina Girl]

15 hours ago, peridot said:

I'm really surprised that Marian is ignoring all the red flags that Raikes is giving off. 

I wonder if he's setting up situations where Marian is "compromised" so that to save her "reputation" Aunt Agnes will have to agree to a marriage.  

[Atlanta]

1 minute ago, Jordan Baker said:

I first read this as "bag of meth," which would put a whole new spin on Marian!

Heh heh heh. That made me literally laugh out loud. Yo, science Miss Marian! Now we know why she wears yellow a lot.

Poor Gladys is going to rebel and it won't be pretty. The poor young woman is going run off with some man getting married at the courthouse. How old is her brother? Does he have his own place? Please don't marry her off to some gold digging earl or duke unless they wind up like Cora and Robert.

Was glad to see Marian and Peggy make good again. I'm now a Clara Barton fangirl. 

So is Mrs Morris destitute now? If she's from old money, does she not have family she can stay with? 

[sistermagpie]

12 minutes ago, AntFTW said:

How old is Gladys? Do they ever tell us?

I imagine she's maybe 16.

I think she's older. Her father keeps pointing out that she's an adult and should be out by now, so she should be older than 18.

[Carolina Girl]

13 hours ago, Chippings said:

I was reminded of Downton Abbey, though, where the actor who played Thomas Barrow, the constantly disgruntled footman &c was asked what was the reason for his character's really bad attitude, and he said he had no idea -- and that he'd asked Julian Fellowes and got no answer. 

I always attributed his general bad humor to the fact that he was counting on becoming Grantham's valet (an uptick in status) and was PO's when John showed up.  

[eleanorofaquitaine]

20 minutes ago, MissLucas said:

George's handling of Mr Baldwin was cold but I'm cynical enough to say the reason Mr Baldwin did not see that coming is the reason he's not ready to marry Gladys. Poor Gladys though, at least she finally got a maid plus someone in that damn house who asks her what she wants - you go Mrs Burns!

I feel like I am sticking up for a character that is ultimately not that important but it's not like Archie had any real reason to presume that George would object to him. Archie (seemingly) comes from a respectable family; he comes from the same class as the Russells, if you will. In fact, I would venture to guess that his family was probably more respectable than the Russells. As far as he was concerned, I am guessing, he was courting a young lady of his class, whose family would look favorably on his suit.

And quite honestly, it's likely George would have looked favorably on him, if not for Bertha's ambitions. George had nothing against the guy and even told Bertha he seems like a decent sort after George went all Don Corleone on him. In short, IMO, Archie really didn't do anything wrong but get in the way of what Bertha wants.

[Roseanna]

1 hour ago, MissLucas said:

Speaking of Bertha: just once I wish someone would counter her 'This is not what I want...'-shtick with 'What about what Gladys wants?'

And Bertha would answer: "What she wants is not what she needs."

With that I don't mean that Bertha knows what her daughter needs. It's only a general statement that a few girls in Gladys' age can make a wise decision for life. Unfortunately, Bertha hasn't helped her daughter at all.  

[Roseanna]

2 hours ago, KarenX said:

Gladys may be against her mother more than ever now but Bertha also kind of bought her off too with a Ladies’ Maid concession. Archie was truly Nothing Special. Gladys could get over him in a heart beat if she is allowed to go out. Gladys’s potential for angry rebellion is a form of managing up. She’s not bad at this game that her mother is playing.

That.

In most families parents were wiser: they didn't actually choose spouses for their sons and daughters but they only ensured that their children met eligible persons among whom they then could choose. 

[CattyK]

I really hated this episode.  George threatening Gladys’ would-be suitor was sickening, and George complying with Bertha on this just makes me mad.  But we didn’t see how Gladys met the guy or ever see them interacting so I wasn’t invested in that relationship at all.  

George seems to be able to see Gladys as an actual person, where Bertha just sees her  as a pawn in her game.  So I don’t understand why George lets Bertha steamroller over Gladys’s life. 
at this point I don’t really see how Bertha is helping George.  It seems like he is helping her get into society but what is she actually doing for him.  And where is Larry?  He could do more to help Gladys.  
 

[BabyBella94]

Gladys is 17. Her actress confirmed it. 

[sistermagpie]

3 minutes ago, BabyBella94 said:

Gladys is 17. Her actress confirmed it. 

Wow. She should calm the hell down then!

[BabyBella94]

I watched the podcast and the actor brings up the fact that they called him Raikes on purpose and how he will probably be going in different directions since Marian is introducing him to society....I gotta go with Agnes on this one. the whole kissing scene and asking her to stay the night and everything really told me what he is all about.

Also Marian is annoying me. She’s disrespecting her aunt who is letting her live in her home, giving her clothes and an allowance over the Russells and some random lawyer. 

Bertha wants Gladys to be a Princess or a Duchess. She wants her to have a title so the Russells could basically outrank everyone in the old money society, the old money society would have to bow down to them.

Again...I wish they would give Larry an actual storyline and plot. Everybody has a story but him and I think he has a lot of potential.