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S01.E05: Charity Has Two Functions


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16 minutes ago, Noneofyourbusiness said:

I think they would have Marian's father's name on them. And as I said, how would he get his hands on them? It can't be as easy as people would give them to him because he was the lawyer, or it would happen all the time.

He had them in his hands when he was meeting with her. Maybe her father gave them to the lawyer for safekeeping so he wouldn't squander everything and actually leave something for his daughter? I would imagine the lawyer also had power of attorney (if that was a thing) because you know . . . women can't handle money . . . so even with the father's name on it, POA would make it possible for Raikes to sell them. 

I have no dog in this fight -- I'm simply saying that in that scene, Raikes was holding the stock certificates and if he convinced her they were worthless, he very easily could have sold them himself as the attorney/executor.

The woman my father married was his executor and she stole about $80K from me -- long story but essentially because she was executor she was able to manipulate paperwork on which I was specifically named. If that's possible now even with so much of everything being done electronically it would have been a cake walk then. 

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2 hours ago, Noneofyourbusiness said:

Men have no menopause. Their fertility goes down only somewhat with age. A 100 year old man can still beget children, if his partner is young enough.

What about impotence? 

In any case, how many dukes there were in Britain on 1880ies? And how many of them were both over 80 years, single, without a son and in need of money? 

 

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4 minutes ago, Roseanna said:

Mr Russell said that he had known that a railway accident would happen sooner or later. Does that mean that he had deliberately acted against security regulations in order to get more profit?

I am wondering if there even were security regulations.

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The HBO website says, "He is protective of his little sister, Gladys, and like her he is a classic child of the rich. He thinks he doesn't care about money, because he has always had plenty of it."

Good thing we have the website to let us know about this, instead of you know, the actual.

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In any case, how many dukes there were in Britain on 1880ies? And how many of them were both over 80 years, single, without a son and in need of money? 

I think you are taking that example too literally. It's isn't how many Dukes fit that profile but rather that Bertha is so desperate to break into society and show up the new money she would marry Gladys off to someone like that just to say she is the mother of a Duchess.

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21 minutes ago, izabella said:

I am wondering if there even were security regulations.

Maybe not but people who build railways, just as those who build bridges, learn from experience what is safe and what is not.

Of course the cause of the accident could have been f.ex. a human error, but Mr Russell began immediately to worry about that his company will be blamed and the result would be its ruin. And he is a robber baron: his character and actions we have seen before indicate that he is capable to put his profit before the safety of the passengers.  

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3 hours ago, SailorGirl said:

He had them in his hands when he was meeting with her. Maybe her father gave them to the lawyer for safekeeping so he wouldn't squander everything and actually leave something for his daughter? I would imagine the lawyer also had power of attorney (if that was a thing) because you know . . . women can't handle money . . . so even with the father's name on it, POA would make it possible for Raikes to sell them. 

That possibility rests on unlikeliness that Marian's father thought about her daughter's future. But he was all for appearances. He lied to her daughter that he owned his house, although it was rented. That his stocks would have any value would be a wonder.

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50 minutes ago, Hiyo said:

I think you are taking that example too literally. It's isn't how many Dukes fit that profile but rather that Bertha is so desperate to break into society and show up the new money she would marry Gladys off to someone like that just to say she is the mother of a Duchess.

Bertha is no fool: her ambition is to build a dynasty. It's not enough to her call her daughter a Duchess (and soon Dowager), but know that her grandson will be the next Duke. Otherwise, it's just waste of money - and Glaydys' dowry is entirely in Georges' hands.     

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It's not enough to her call her daughter a Duchess (and soon Dowager), but know that her grandson will be the next Duke.

I think it's implied that if her daughter is a Duchess, her grandson will be a Duke as well.

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Otherwise, it's just waste of money - and Glaydys' dowry is entirely in Georges' hands.    

From what he have seen, George has no issue in subsidizing Bertha's ambitions, so it's probably a non-issue.

 

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1 hour ago, Roseanna said:

Mr Russell said that he had known that a railway accident would happen sooner or later. Does that mean that he had deliberately acted against security regulations in order to get more profit?

No, I think he understands that accidents happen and sooner or later something would go wrong. It's just basic law of averages. I can't remember the exact line of dialogue, but to me it indicated that he was worried about him and his company being blamed for the accident, as opposed to someone finding out that he was not following rules/regulations. 

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15 hours ago, blackwing said:

In fact, Larry is pretty much a blank slate.  We haven't seen much of him at all or even know what he is thinking.  All we know is that he just graduated from Harvard and he started a position at George's company.  We don't even really know exactly what he does there.  I don't think he can be faulted for not taking an interest in the company when he is barely onscreen.

Pretty much the only times we have seen him are at the party in Newport with Oscar, a casual hello to Marian, and sitting at the dining table with his parents.  He hasn't been given any story of his own and thus he doesn't have any discernable personality other than he seems like he is a nice guy and is sympathetic to his sister's situation.

I agree that Larry is a blank slate - almost. Besides being generally nice and taking his sister's side against his father (respect for that!), he seems quite naive: unlike his father, he didn't suspect Oscar's motives to court her sister when he ceased to visit Russells after rumors about his father's ruin.   

It's a mystery why Fellowes wastes time with servants, instead of given Larry a plot of his own: either work or love. If he is supposed to mean to be Marian's endgame, it's curious that he hasn't shown any interest toward her after saving Ada's dog. 

For a young rich man fresh from the university and many things to enjoy in the city, it's in a way understandable that he isn't very interested in the company, but it also indicates that he lacks (as yet at least) solid qualities. When George's whatever-his-position-is appeared so suddenly in their home, Bertha realized that something serious had happened, left her children in the salon and went to George. Larry didn't. 

Nor did George invite Larry along as would be natural if he is seriously teaching him business. If the father wants to protect his son from worries, it's not a good method for the future. Has he already realized that Larry is too soft for business?

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25 minutes ago, Sarah 103 said:

No, I think he understands that accidents happen and sooner or later something would go wrong. It's just basic law of averages. I can't remember the exact line of dialogue, but to me it indicated that he was worried about him and his company being blamed for the accident, as opposed to someone finding out that he was not following rules/regulations. 

But if his company isn't to be blame, he shouldn't have nothing to worry. (Well, not quite, newspapers could blame him anyway.)

If there were something amiss, he wouldn't say it aloud. Not because he didn't trust those two who were present, but because one doesn't need to say something that all know already.

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19 minutes ago, Roseanna said:

But if his company isn't to be blame, he shouldn't have nothing to worry. (Well, not quite, newspapers could blame him anyway.)

If there were something amiss, he wouldn't say it aloud. Not because he didn't trust those two who were present, but because one doesn't need to say something that all know already.

This isn't a perfect comparison, but it's the best I can come up with. It's the difference between a driver getting in a car accident because of something the driver was or was not doing vs. a driver getting into an accident because there was a defect in the brakes. The manufacturer cannot be blamed for something that is the fault of the driver. I think Russell is worried the newspapers will blame him for something that may or may not have been his fault. Any accident obviously isn't good for his business. 

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1 hour ago, Hiyo said:

I think it's implied that if her daughter is a Duchess, her grandson will be a Duke as well.

From what he have seen, George has no issue in subsidizing Bertha's ambitions, so it's probably a non-issue.

As we have seen in Downton Abbey, there is no guarantee that a son will be born or will survive infancy (child mortality was high even in rich families). The probability will be higher if the husband isn't so old that he isn't going to die because the heart accident in the marriage bed. 

It would be really be a boring drama, if we could anticipate *all* events. That Bertha wants to marry Gladys to a top scion of Old Money or British aristocracy seems likely. But all can't be that simple.

So far, George hasn't opposed Bertha's ambitions, but that doesn't guarantee that he wouldn't do it in the future, if the matter is important enough. As was shown in Oscar's case, he is a good judge of character. It's also unlike that he would throw a fortune to the wind. Even if doesn't care about her daughter's happiness, he cares about building a dynasty that preserves his company. His son-of-law must have more than a position he has inherited - he must have qualities that guarantee that the family fortune isn't lost in his hands. If Larry lacks these qualities, who will become Gladys' husband is all the more important.  

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31 minutes ago, Sarah 103 said:

This isn't a perfect comparison, but it's the best I can come up with. It's the difference between a driver getting in a car accident because of something the driver was or was not doing vs. a driver getting into an accident because there was a defect in the brakes. The manufacturer cannot be blamed for something that is the fault of the driver. I think Russell is worried the newspapers will blame him for something that may or may not have been his fault. Any accident obviously isn't good for his business. 

Good points.

Yet, this was an age where there were often accidents in the factories because the owners just didn't care and workers had no rights. 

I don't think that George is created after "robber barons" for nothing. 

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As we have seen in Downton Abbey

This isn't Downton Abbey, which takes place decades later in another country. And what was done in DA was done for storyline purposes.

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It would be really be a boring drama, if we could anticipate *all* events. That Bertha wants to marry Gladys to a top scion of Old Money or British aristocracy seems likely. But all can't be that simple.

Sometimes it is that simple. Bertha wants to be a part of the upper echelon of NYC society. Marrying off her daughter is one possible stepping stone to getting there.

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So far, George hasn't opposed Bertha's ambitions, but that doesn't guarantee that he wouldn't do it in the future, if the matter is important enough. As was shown in Oscar's case, he is a good judge of character.

Not when it came to Archie.

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Even if doesn't care about her daughter's happiness, he cares about building a dynasty that preserves his company. His son-of-law must have more than a position he has inherited - he must have qualities that guarantee that the family fortune isn't lost in his hands. If Larry lacks these qualities, who will become Gladys' husband is all the more important.  

Nah. History has shown us that many families of that era arranged marriages for their daughters not to build some family dynasty, but to use that marriage as a prestigious way to get into old money high society.

The son-in-law isn't getting the bulk of the family fortune, so I have no idea why you think the SIL has any responsibility towards keeping the family fortune going. The SIL is just getting a very, very, very generous payment to marry someone's daughter. 

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1 hour ago, Hiyo said:

Not when it came to Archie.

Actually he was. He said that Archie was of decent sort. 

1 hour ago, Hiyo said:

The son-in-law isn't getting the bulk of the family fortune

That happened irl when the son wasn't a fit successor. 

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1 hour ago, Hiyo said:

This isn't Downton Abbey, which takes place decades later in another country. And what was done in DA was done for storyline purposes.

Every screenwriter has stereotypes and formulas and we know those of Fellowes on the basis of Downton Abbey and his other dramas. 

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Actually he was. He said that Archie was of decent sort. 

Just not decent enough for his daughter.

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That happened irl when the son wasn't a fit successor. 

Which happened rarely.

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Every screenwriter has stereotypes and formulas and we know those of Fellowes on the basis of Downton Abbey and his other dramas. 

Yes but I doubt he is going to have Marion or Glady's husband die in a car accident on the day his one and only child who is also the male heir is born. Just saying.

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Then again, who knows. Maybe we'll get a scene where George inherits a viscountcy from a very very very very distant relative, and then a scene of Bertha trashing a dining room set because dammit nothing less than an earldom for her family!

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I find the writing for Larry seriously lacking too. In that sense he's the perfect match for Marian. The most remarkable thing he's done so far was joking about his mother's potato digging ancestry in front of a guest. 

And if he really cared enough about Gladys he's the one person best qualified in the household to undermine Bertha's attempts to keep Gladys sequestered. His mother could not stop him from inviting a score of 'good friends' (aka eligible bachelors) to dinner since he could always claim that they are important to her and George's interests. Oscar hardly counts as he had to manipulate Larry to get a foot in the door IIRC. I don't mean he's supposed to find a husband for his sister but he could force Bertha's hand to finally have Gladys out.

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4 hours ago, Roseanna said:

It's a mystery why Fellowes wastes time with servants

I'm glad he doesn't dismiss the entire downstairs class- they're more than their station, they're interesting people.   

So far the character of Larry seems like a placeholder- yes, there is an elder son but we haven't quite decided what to do with him yet. So you over there, look pretty and hopefully we'll have a storyline for you next season.  

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11 minutes ago, Pestilentia said:

I'm glad he doesn't dismiss the entire downstairs class- they're more than their station, they're interesting people.   

They could be interesting, if they had a storyline, but so far only Turner has had and all here guessed that it wouldn't succeed. 

In any case, there is no point to tell about all servants something that has no meaning. Better chose a few who have relevant stories, either interwoven with their masters or with themes parallel or opposite. 

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2 hours ago, Hiyo said:

Yes but I doubt he is going to have Marion or Glady's husband die in a car accident on the day his one and only child who is also the male heir is born. Just saying.

On the basis of Matthew and Sybil's fate, we may be fairly sure that Fellowes doesn't kill his main characters if the actors don't want out. Instead, he may kill a partner in order to get "right" lovers together (Lavinia) or cause a main character an ordeal (Gregson). 

The most important thing is that his concept of romance is macho and old-fashioned. Who made a proposal too fast if not Henry Talbot? After Lady Mary said no he even came to her home to pressure her in the manner "I know we love each other". Compared to Henry, Raikes has been an angel of patience.

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16 minutes ago, Roseanna said:

They could be interesting, if they had a storyline, but so far only Turner has had and all here guessed that it wouldn't succeed. 

In any case, there is no point to tell about all servants something that has no meaning. Better chose a few who have relevant stories, either interwoven with their masters or with themes parallel or opposite. 

I agree with you on this!   There are so many servants and I would rather we learn about the ones who are impactful to the overall theme and plot.  I get that the servants have lives and are people too.  But I really couldn’t give a crap about nasty Miss Armstrong and her nasty mom.  Why waste time on her?  I also don’t particularly care about the creepy bald valet who is some kind of stalker. 

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On the basis of Matthew and Sybil's fate, we may be fairly sure that Fellowes doesn't kill his main characters if the actors don't want out. Instead, he may kill a partner in order to get "right" lovers together (Lavinia) or cause a main character an ordeal (Gregson). 

So why bring it up in the first place?

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The most important thing is that his concept of romance is macho and old-fashioned. Who made a proposal too fast if not Henry Talbot? After Lady Mary said no he even came to her home to pressure her in the manner "I know we love each other".

Again, different show, different characters, different era, different locations.

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7 hours ago, Roseanna said:

That possibility rests on unlikeliness that Marian's father thought about her daughter's future. But he was all for appearances. He lied to her daughter that he owned his house, although it was rented. That his stocks would have any value would be a wonder.

Taking my comments on Mr. Raikes to the thread on Episode 1.

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3 hours ago, Roseanna said:

The most important thing is that his concept of romance is macho and old-fashioned. Who made a proposal too fast if not Henry Talbot? After Lady Mary said no he even came to her home to pressure her in the manner "I know we love each other". Compared to Henry, Raikes has been an angel of patience.

Though I think even Fellowes would see how differently that plays out with someone like Marian vs. Mary. Mary was headstrong and arrogant so needed partners who would challenge her--we knew that no matter how much Henry pressured her, Mary wasn't going to be talked into anything she didn't want to do. 

In Marian's case the pressure comes across more as steamrolling her because she puts up no defense and is in a more vulnerable position.

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9 hours ago, Sarah 103 said:

This isn't a perfect comparison, but it's the best I can come up with. It's the difference between a driver getting in a car accident because of something the driver was or was not doing vs. a driver getting into an accident because there was a defect in the brakes. The manufacturer cannot be blamed for something that is the fault of the driver. I think Russell is worried the newspapers will blame him for something that may or may not have been his fault. Any accident obviously isn't good for his business. 

I believe derailments were fairly common during this period, too.

I believe the derailment occurred in PA. I wonder if this will bring that railroad stock of Marion's under scrutiny.

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8 hours ago, Roseanna said:

So far, George hasn't opposed Bertha's ambitions, but that doesn't guarantee that he wouldn't do it in the future, if the matter is important enough. As was shown in Oscar's case, he is a good judge of character. It's also unlike that he would throw a fortune to the wind. Even if doesn't care about her daughter's happiness, he cares about building a dynasty that preserves his company. His son-of-law must have more than a position he has inherited - he must have qualities that guarantee that the family fortune isn't lost in his hands. If Larry lacks these qualities, who will become Gladys' husband is all the more important.  

We actually haven't been shown anything that demonstrates that George wants to build a family dynasty when it comes to his business. I think you are projecting onto George some beliefs regarding his business empire that we haven't been shown on screen. He hasn't indicated that he thinks his own son is going to be end up "preserving" a business dynasty, let alone a potential son-in-law. 

So far, when it comes to his business, we've been shown that George can be ruthless but that he's also a self-made man who has built his company from the ground up. While it's reasonable to surmise that he wants Larry to be a part of his business, we haven't seen him put any pressure on Larry to do that. And we've seen ZERO indication that he expects his future son-in-law to be slotted into his business. 

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10 hours ago, Roseanna said:

That possibility rests on unlikeliness that Marian's father thought about her daughter's future. But he was all for appearances. He lied to her daughter that he owned his house, although it was rented. That his stocks would have any value would be a wonder.

I think we can see that the stock market is volatile--I think that is the term. In railroads, anyway., see episode 3.

It occurs to me that one way  would be to cause a series of derailments, so people would want to ride on competitor's railway lines, which would cause the value of the stock to shift.

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12 hours ago, Roseanna said:

Mr Russell said that he had known that a railway accident would happen sooner or later. Does that mean that he had deliberately acted against security regulations in order to get more profit?

Trainwrecks were fairly common. It wasn't just how they were built, it was also the logistics, where trains would be unfortunately run into each other on the same track, or crash while crossing a track at the wrong time. People would try things with negative outcomes.

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55 minutes ago, Affogato said:

Trainwrecks were fairly common. It wasn't just how they were built, it was also the logistics, where trains would be unfortunately run into each other on the same track, or crash while crossing a track at the wrong time. People would try things with negative outcomes.

Some unsettling numbers to illustrate the point:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_American_railroad_accidents#1880s

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23 hours ago, SailorGirl said:

He had them in his hands when he was meeting with her. Maybe her father gave them to the lawyer for safekeeping so he wouldn't squander everything and actually leave something for his daughter? I would imagine the lawyer also had power of attorney (if that was a thing) because you know . . . women can't handle money . . . so even with the father's name on it, POA would make it possible for Raikes to sell them.

Okay, I didn't realize that, but then the question is which of them left the office with the stocks.

21 hours ago, Roseanna said:

What about impotence?

Only a problem for some men. Doesn't make 80 "too old to father children" as a rule of thumb.

21 hours ago, Roseanna said:

Mr Russell said that he had known that a railway accident would happen sooner or later. Does that mean that he had deliberately acted against security regulations in order to get more profit?

Murphy's Law. If something can go wrong with a piece of machinery, at some point it will happen.

I've already commented about my frustration with the lack of use of Larry and listed several things they could be showing with him but aren't.

14 hours ago, MissLucas said:

I find the writing for Larry seriously lacking too. In that sense he's the perfect match for Marian. The most remarkable thing he's done so far was joking about his mother's potato digging ancestry in front of a guest.

He seriously could have gotten himself killed trying to rescue Pumpkin.

14 hours ago, MissLucas said:

And if he really cared enough about Gladys he's the one person best qualified in the household to undermine Bertha's attempts to keep Gladys sequestered. His mother could not stop him from inviting a score of 'good friends' (aka eligible bachelors) to dinner since he could always claim that they are important to her and George's interests.

But could he prevent his parents from making each and every one of those friends wish he was never born?

And if after such a dinner his parents told him they knew what he was up to, scolded him, and told him not to do that again, I think the gig would be up.

18 hours ago, Roseanna said:

It would be really be a boring drama, if we could anticipate *all* events. That Bertha wants to marry Gladys to a top scion of Old Money or British aristocracy seems likely. But all can't be that simple.

It's not that simple because the show itself hasn't articulated the idea yet. When Bertha finally reveals that she wants Gladys to marry an earl or a duke and unveils the man in question, it'll be a "surprise" moment. It may be obvious to us, as we've had all this time to speculate and analyze, but it's not obvious to Gladys, and may not be obvious to viewers who don't spend their time speculating and analyzing.

Like Daenerys being the younger, more beautiful queen from Cersei's prophecy. It may be obvious to readers who've had all this time between books to think about it, but what matters is that it's not obvious to Cersei, who barely knows Daenerys exists.

 

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43 minutes ago, BabyBella94 said:

We need to see more of Larry and his storyline. I mean he should be with his father during this whole railroad accident. 

In the upcoming preview, it appears that they will deal with the crash in the next episode. Maybe we'll see more of Larry then? But TBH, they never said what Larry was doing, only that he was going to work at Russell's company.

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20 hours ago, MissLucas said:

And if he really cared enough about Gladys he's the one person best qualified in the household to undermine Bertha's attempts to keep Gladys sequestered. His mother could not stop him from inviting a score of 'good friends' (aka eligible bachelors) to dinner since he could always claim that they are important to her and George's interests. Oscar hardly counts as he had to manipulate Larry to get a foot in the door IIRC. I don't mean he's supposed to find a husband for his sister but he could force Bertha's hand to finally have Gladys out.

 

6 hours ago, Noneofyourbusiness said:

But could he prevent his parents from making each and every one of those friends wish he was never born?

And if after such a dinner his parents told him they knew what he was up to, scolded him, and told him not to do that again, I think the gig would be up.

I think that Larry could make much for Gladys if he only wanted. He could have her with him when he lunches with his friends (as we were already told he did once) and even give her a backstory for her secret meetings. 

Only, Larry's ability to read people isn't good, as he showed when he didn't suspect Oscar's motives, unlike his father. He was unable to see that being a nice pal with whom he enjoys experiences that are allowed to rich young men, isn't enough to make a sister in her future marriage happy *and* safe.

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7 hours ago, Noneofyourbusiness said:

It's not that simple because the show itself hasn't articulated the idea yet. When Bertha finally reveals that she wants Gladys to marry an earl or a duke and unveils the man in question, it'll be a "surprise" moment. It may be obvious to us, as we've had all this time to speculate and analyze, but it's not obvious to Gladys, and may not be obvious to viewers who don't spend their time speculating and analyzing.

Like Daenerys being the younger, more beautiful queen from Cersei's prophecy. It may be obvious to readers who've had all this time between books to think about it, but what matters is that it's not obvious to Cersei, who barely knows Daenerys exists.

I believe that once we will see the duke or earl or whatever, we will realize Bertha's intentions, so it's no surprise. That is, unless he isn't incognito. What happens after that, must be a surprise to the audience: Gladys elopes with someone else? the duke/earl didn't want to marry a girl who doesn't love him? George refused to give Gladys a dowry and there will be a rift between him and Bertha? Something happens which makes Bertha change her mind?

But that is in the future. For now, Gladys has to face the conspiracy between Oscar and Turner. It's likely that if Archie wasn't good enough for Bertha, neither is Oscar. But what if Turner makes Gladys who is angry towards her parents and refuses to listen to even their their advice believe that Oscar truly loves her and then helps him to compromise her reputation? 

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16 hours ago, Affogato said:

Trainwrecks were fairly common. It wasn't just how they were built, it was also the logistics, where trains would be unfortunately run into each other on the same track, or crash while crossing a track at the wrong time. People would try things with negative outcomes.

Trainwrecks may have been common, that so was the greed of the rubber barons.

There will be quite different story lines, if Mr Russel is innocent or guilty (even of negligence). And so will be the audience's feelings toward him. 

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What happens after that, must be a surprise to the audience: Gladys elopes with someone else? the duke/earl didn't want to marry a girl who doesn't love him? George refused to give Gladys a dowry and there will be a rift between him and Bertha? Something happens which makes Bertha change her mind?

Don't see Fellows giving us much of a surprise, other than possibly having the peer Gladys marries turning out to be a surprisingly decent man who loves her. Otherwise, most cash-strapped dukes/marquesses/earls didn't care if the girl didn't love them, they wanted the cash so accepted a loveless marriage. I also can't see George refusing to pay a dowry.

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It's likely that if Archie wasn't good enough for Bertha, neither is Oscar

That would depend on where Oscar's family ranks in society versus Archie's. If Oscar's family has a more prestigious pedigree (and possibly fortune as well?), he might be deemed more worthy of marrying Gladys. I wonder where Oscar and his family would rank on Caroline Astor's 400 list?

 

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7 hours ago, Roseanna said:

He could have her with him when he lunches with his friends (as we were already told he did once)

When was this?

6 hours ago, Roseanna said:

I believe that once we will see the duke or earl or whatever, we will realize Bertha's intentions, so it's no surprise.

I was envisioning Bertha introducing him at the coming out ball, and us not seeing him before that.

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2 hours ago, Noneofyourbusiness said:

When was this?

Gladys told Marian that she had a lunch with Larry and his friend (maybe Oscar?), but then the boys continued their way and she couldn't go along. Marian agreed that rules for young women were ridiculous.

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8 hours ago, Hiyo said:

That would depend on where Oscar's family ranks in society versus Archie's. If Oscar's family has a more prestigious pedigree (and possibly fortune as well?), he might be deemed more worthy of marrying Gladys. I wonder where Oscar and his family would rank on Caroline Astor's 400 list?

 

Pretty high I believe.

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8 hours ago, Hiyo said:

That would depend on where Oscar's family ranks in society versus Archie's. If Oscar's family has a more prestigious pedigree (and possibly fortune as well?), he might be deemed more worthy of marrying Gladys. I wonder where Oscar and his family would rank on Caroline Astor's 400 list?

If Bertha wants a duke in Britain, she isn't satisfied with anything less that the very top in NYC. 

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On 2/26/2022 at 7:20 PM, eleanorofaquitaine said:

We actually haven't been shown anything that demonstrates that George wants to build a family dynasty when it comes to his business.

Why else would he want Larry work in his company?

Also generally, if a man had created a company, what will happen to it when he will die? If he has a able son who will continue his work, his work will stay. But if his son isn't able, he will destroys his father's work.

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On 2/26/2022 at 7:00 PM, sistermagpie said:

In Marian's case the pressure comes across more as steamrolling her because she puts up no defense and is in a more vulnerable position.

She has said two times that Raikes must get her aunts' approval. 

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4 minutes ago, Roseanna said:

She has said two times that Raikes must get her aunts' approval. 

Sorry, I didn't mean she really had no resistance at all--she told him she couldn't meet him at a hotel either. But she doesn't come across like a Lady Mary would in that situation.

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2 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Sorry, I didn't mean she really had no resistance at all--she told him she couldn't meet him at a hotel either. But she doesn't come across like a Lady Mary would in that situation.

Well, Mary was both proud and afraid of loss. Marian is neither.  Either she fell in love with Raikes, or she likes to flirt a little. 

It's true that there were "rules" for women in 19th century, but not all men who wanted sex with women before marriage were villains. And some married women got divorce and married their lover.

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2 hours ago, Roseanna said:

Gladys told Marian that she had a lunch with Larry and his friend (maybe Oscar?), but then the boys continued their way and she couldn't go along. Marian agreed that rules for young women were ridiculous.

No, Gladys told Marian that Oscar came across the street to their house to take Larry somewhere else for dinner and he and Gladys met for a few seconds then. Oscar wanted her to join them, but it wouldn't have been proper.

A scene it would have been nice to actually see.

Edited by Noneofyourbusiness
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1 hour ago, Roseanna said:

Well, Mary was both proud and afraid of loss. Marian is neither.  Either she fell in love with Raikes, or she likes to flirt a little. 

It's true that there were "rules" for women in 19th century, but not all men who wanted sex with women before marriage were villains. And some married women got divorce and married their lover.

But it seems more like that's partly due to Mary not being quite so clueless.

But yes, it does seem like Marian has maybe fallen in love with Raikes. That isn't really the issue. Sure there were plenty of men who wanted sex before marriage without being villains, but Raikes really doesn't have any good excuse for that, knowing her situation.

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