S01.E03: Face the Music

[Sarah 103]

7 hours ago, sugarbaker design said:

It's already been established that the bed buddy (sorry, I can't remember his name) is a good friend of Oscar's, Agnes and Ada have known him for a long time.

The bed buddy is John Adams the something (He is supposed to be a direct decedant of the presidents and there is a number after his name, but I am not sure what it is). 

6 hours ago, Shermie said:

I really don’t have sympathy for most of these characters, except maybe their kids. Although they’ll likely grow up and behave the same way, given the examples they live with.

Maybe. The children do not seem as invested in the Old Money/New Money divide as thier parents. In the first two episodes I got the sense that they would not openly oppose or defy thier parents/parental figures, but would try to find ways to see each other. The children may grow up to be snobs, but the snobbery would more likely be based on whether or not someone has money, and do they know the proper way to act and behave in society. When/how the money was made may be irrelevant to them.  

5 hours ago, KarenX said:

I am pretty sure that the late Alderman has life insurance, probably enough to keep his family from ruin. He was protecting their future by taking his life. I don’t think it was shame or embarrassment.

Did life insurance policies exist back then and did they pay out if it was a suicide? 

5 hours ago, KarenX said:

I am also curious how old the Russell children were when they became rich

We know Larry recently graduated from an Ivy League School (Harvard or Princeton, I can't remember which), so they've had money for 4 years at least. 

4 hours ago, KarenX said:

I think Agnes was tested and passed when she hired Peggy, at least so far as acknowledging capability goes. It was unusual to bring a Black woman into the house, I bet, and she is showing incredible trust in her by making her secretary.

When Agnes said she helps those who help themselves she was being self-deprecating. She wasn’t really “helping” Peggy. Peggy “helped herself” by being superbly confident and competent, and demonstrating a generous and gracious character. Agnes isn’t lifting her up with an opportunity; Peggy is making her own luck.

My take on Agnes hiring Peggy was that Agnes thought that Peggy was worthy of help. Peggy was not a poor homeless begger in rags coming to the door asking for charity. Peggy had worked hard to recieve an education and attempted to become a contributing member of society, which Agnes approved of. Agnes saw that Peggy was attempting to look respectable/presentable and valued those traits. (This ties into some dated/messed-up ideas of charity and distinctions between the deserving poor and the undeserving poor).

[AntFTW]

6 hours ago, Hiyo said:

Yes, they want her money. Anyone can see that. Heck, even Stevie Wonder can see that.

And if all they want is her money...then that's up to them. They still owe her nothing beyond that.

Yes, they owe her nothing. I don't disagree with that.

Yes, they want her money. Bertha knows they want her money. Bertha said that to Aurora Fane when Mrs. Fane showed up at Bertha's house.

Outside of the money, my ultimate point is that they didn't have to treat her like shit because Bertha did not warrant that from them. If you are kind to someone, you expect that kindness back. If someone invites you into their home (and you go) and gives you a seat at their table, you owe them the decency of not being rude at a minimum. I'd say that Bertha was, at least, owed that from them.

Edited February 11, 2022 by AntFTW

[twoods]

Word. Bertha was never rude to those ladies and they have been nothing more than snobby and childish towards her like some cougar mean girls, just because she had “new money.” Why did that one lady make an appearance at the Russell’s home for a few minutes and then take off?  Couldn’t she have stayed until after dinner? Might as well not shown up. They are getting what they deserve.

[mojito]

Life insurance has been around for hundreds of years. I wonder, though, if someone so wealthy would necessarily bother with life insurance? I mean, lots of people nowadays don't bother because they have assets.

How many times has Agnes left the house, been out in public attending social gatherings?

Edited February 11, 2022 by mojito

[Roseanna]

9 hours ago, Hiyo said:

She helped  her by giving her an opportunity most people would not have given, especially given who Peggy was.

Actually they helped each other: Agnes needed hep for correpondence and Peggy didn't want to live at home. But it wasn't the opportunity to work as a secretary, although valued by many others, that Peggy wanted. 

It's true that Agnes showed that she has no race prejudices, although she has strong class prejudices. But hiring Peggy didn't demand anything from Agnes - she is wealthy and none of her friends have critized her for hiring Peggy. 

Instead, when Peggy loaned money to Marian who was unknown to her,  she took the risk losing it. In a way, Agnes owed to Peggy more than paying back money for helping her niece in dire need. Knowing Agnes, she didn't think that way but probably that incident made her to recognize that Peggy had more that skills needed for a secretary - she had also a character for that profession.

 

[Carolina Girl]

20 hours ago, sugarbaker design said:

CC says my favorite line from Gone Girl "I can't believe that fucking spider is America's sweetheart"

YES!  She was my favorite character in the show.  The detective was second.  

[Carolina Girl]

20 hours ago, Hiyo said:

But, old money vs new money didn't start with the Gilded Age, and it didn't end there either.

Yep - it continues to this day.  Check out the story of Anne Woodward's trying to break into society by marrying Billy Woodward (new money in the 1800's; now old money in the 1940's) and her complete unacceptance by "the 400".  Fictionalized by Dominick Dunne in "The Two Mrs. Grenvilles."

[Hiyo]

Quote

Actually they helped each other: Agnes needed hep for correpondence and Peggy didn't want to live at home.

Actually I'd say Peggy needs Agnes at this point much more than Agnes needs Peggy.

Quote

Instead, when Peggy loaned money to Marian who was unknown to her,  she took the risk losing it. In a way, Agnes owed to Peggy more than paying back money for helping her niece in dire need.

Marian is the one who really owes Peggy, not Agnes.

[Roseanna]

28 minutes ago, Hiyo said:

Marian is the one who really owes Peggy, not Agnes.

People didn't think that way in those times. If somebody had done a favor for your relative, the whole family owed to him/her.

Instead, it was no special favor from Agnes that she took her niece to live with her, it was simply her duty - even if her brother had failed his duty towards her sisters. 

[Roseanna]

12 hours ago, mojito said:

Life insurance has been around for hundreds of years. I wonder, though, if someone so wealthy would necessarily bother with life insurance? I mean, lots of people nowadays don't bother because they have assets.

That may well be. We shall see.

But even if Morris's wife and children had no money problems, they would have disgraced by Morris' suicide (that was a sin, but does somebody know if it was a crime in the  US as f.ex. in Britain?). If some family member lost his/her honor, it influenced on the whole family. 

[Roseanna]

People have wondered here why the Russells want so desperately to be accepted by OId Money's society. Indeed, why would anyone like to socialize people who are clearly not good company in any respect? But the highest status and appearances means everything to Bertha.

Actually, the bigger problem is Mrs. Chamberlain - why on earth does she keep coming when she is ostracized by everyone? Why doesn't she move to to a place where nobody knows about her "scandal" and start anew? Because she is so set in her ways that she can't imagine living in anywhere else? Because her husband has for some reason to stay in NYC? Because she is willing to suffer any present discomfort in the hope that in time everything will be forgotten and her child will get the place that "belongs" to him/her.

[Hiyo]

Quote

People didn't think that way in those times. If somebody had done a favor for your relative, the whole family owed to him/her.

That isn't true or fact.

Quote

it was no special favor from Agnes that she took her niece to live with her, it was simply her duty

You're moving goal posts here. That has nothing to do with Peggy and Marion.

There was no duty for Agnes to take in Marion as well.

[sistermagpie]

I have to say, on the subject on Agnes' lack of racial prejudice, it just seems very Julian Fellowes to me that the main source of racism we've seen has come from lower class women while the upper class family he likes are more admirable.

[sempervivum]

I love George and Bertha both separately and individually, but then, I've always loved Scarlett and Rhett (who seem like 'opposite world' G & B to me).

Instead of going to the publishers' offices herself, Peggy should hire Raikes to represent her. 

[Maisiesmom]

Personally, I like The Russells. Bertha is a force to be reckoned with and her husband, while ruthless, seems to really care about her. It sounds like they worked hard to make their fortune and now want to reap the rewards. (As an aside, I have only seen Carrie Coon in one other movie called "The Nest" with (swoon) Jude Law-her performance was very different from the role she plays in this show.) I just don't get why all the "Old Money" women are so bitchy towards her. Especially Agnes-does she ever go out to these gatherings or just send her sister? And I agree the young Miss Streep isn't much of an actor-maybe she will improve with time. I am definitly in for the beautiful costumes and sets and intrigue and all that good stuff. Agnes sure knows how to bring the snark!

[iMonrey]

Quote

But they didn't want him to win. So after agreeing on a handshake they decided instead to short George's stock, a way of betting on him to lose and then arranged for the circumstances - reneging on the new station - so that they win but George loses.

So George has to buy more and more stock - on margin - to keep his stock high, thus making them lose their margined shorts before his margins are called. Very bold. And he plays chicken better than them. George wins. Their shorts ruin at least Mr. Morris and try the others.

I'm still not following this. The deal proposed by George was they buy on the margin, the stock price rises, they sell at a profit. The stock DID rise. How did that ruin them?

[RedHawk]

On 2/8/2022 at 11:41 AM, kristen111 said:

I’m sure there’s more to her then just that.  They did get married.

In these circles a woman of no birth or fortune who was known to be pregnant before marriage was not someone wealthy, well-born socialites wanted to be around or expose their daughters to. These women were “pure” when they married. As well as being unthinkable, there would be very little opportunity to have sex prior to marriage.

Or the worst, Mrs. Chamberlain may have been a prostitute, or rumored to be one. Possibly Mrs. C was first her husband’s known mistress (huge double standard about adultery in these circles at that time) and then when widowed he took her as his second wife, as happened in “The Age of Innocence”.

Whatever her scandalous story, I’m guessing that it won’t be as horrible as the rumors suggest and in fact most of it might turn out not to be true. Maybe she ran a boarding house but gossip turned it into a "house of ill repute.”

Edited February 12, 2022 by RedHawk
Fix punctuation

[AntFTW]

21 hours ago, iMonrey said:

I'm still not following this. The deal proposed by George was they buy on the margin, the stock price rises, they sell at a profit. The stock DID rise. How did that ruin them?

Because the aldermen decided to short sell the stock. That's where they lost money.

The deal proposed by George (they buy on the margin, the stock price rises, they sell at a profit) did work. The aldermen made a profit.

After making that profit, the aldermen decided to sell the stock short and that's where they lost money. The losses on short selling is, theoretically, endless. In theory, there is no maximum to the amount of money that can be lost on a short sale. In order to profit on a short sale, the stock price has to decrease.

George was not included on the aldermen's short sell plan. When George caught wind of their short selling plan, George started buying all of the company's shares so that kept inflating the stock price. As the stock price kept increasing, the aldermen's losses kept growing.

Edited February 12, 2022 by AntFTW

[Bliss]

Agnes sure must have a lot of letters to write, to employ Peggy fulltime. (She should invent email!)

Curious why Peggy needs a lawyer... hmmmm.

[mojito]

3 hours ago, AntFTW said:

I'm still not following this. The deal proposed by George was they buy on the margin, the stock price rises, they sell at a profit. The stock DID rise. How did that ruin them?

I'll take a stab at this. Honestly, I'm guessing.

You know how the aldermen made a profit. 

So now, they put more money in jeopardy by borrowing 10,000 shares that must be returned by February 1. The current price is $10 a share. Not a problem. Their trickery is making the price drop like a rock. They're waiting for the price to go down to $1 and they'll replenish those 10,000 shares plus buy maybe 20,000 more for themselves. That many shares will also give them control of George's company and they can ruin him. But George turns around and buys up those 10,000 shares first, which raises the share price of the stock.  Along comes February 1 and the aldermen are required to return those 10,000 shares. Only they're $15 a share now and not $1. Instead of paying $10,000 for the shares, they have to pay $150,000. Oops.

My best guess.

[AntFTW]

3 hours ago, mojito said:

I'll take a stab at this. Honestly, I'm guessing.

You know how the aldermen made a profit. 

So now, they put more money in jeopardy by borrowing 10,000 shares that must be returned by February 1. The current price is $10 a share. Not a problem. Their trickery is making the price drop like a rock. They're waiting for the price to go down to $1 and they'll replenish those 10,000 shares plus buy maybe 20,000 more for themselves. That many shares will also give them control of George's company and they can ruin him. But George turns around and buys up those 10,000 shares first, which raises the share price of the stock.  Along comes February 1 and the aldermen are required to return those 10,000 shares. Only they're $15 a share now and not $1. Instead of paying $10,000 for the shares, they have to pay $150,000. Oops.

My best guess.

Yes, that's right.

Mapping your example, assuming we're at some date before February 1:

1) They borrow 10,000 shares and sell those shares at $10 a share. They receive $100.000 from doing that.

2) Now, they have to return that 10,000 shares that they borrowed by February 1. Since they have sold those shares, they now have to go buy 10,000 shares to return them.

3) Time passes and it's February 1. The 10,000 shares are due. George inflates the price of the stock. They go from $10 a share to $15 a share. They now have to spend $150,000 to buy 10,000 shares because they have to return 10,000 shares.

4) To summarize, they receive $100,000 when they sold the 10,000 shares. They had to spend $150,000 to buy back 10,000 shares. They lose $50,000.

Edited February 12, 2022 by AntFTW

[Dowrysess]

Seems like they are pushing Tom and Marian on us, but I don't believe they are endgame.

[mojito]

Now, somebody please tell me, I don't want to re-watch these shows. Does Agnes ever leave the house? Who are her friends? She doesn't seem to make any public appearances.

Thanks.

[AntFTW]

1 minute ago, mojito said:

Now, somebody please tell me, I don't want to re-watch these shows. Does Agnes ever leave the house? Who are her friends? She doesn't seem to make any public appearances.

Thanks.

She did go to the charity event in the 2nd episode, the one that George shut down.

[Roseanna]

12 hours ago, Maisiesmom said:

I just don't get why all the "Old Money" women are so bitchy towards her. 

They defend their own status that is based on the birth in the "right" family" and inheriting their fortune. "There can't be two tigers on the same hill."

Also in Jane Austen's novels there are snobbery towards "new" people whose father/grandfather has made their fortune in trade. F.ex. in Emma, Mrs Elton makes elemental mistakes. 

On the other hand, in Persuasion the captains of the Royal Navy who had themselves made their career and fortune (one got a prize money by capturing enemy ships) is valued and a baronet is  ridiculed. 

[Haleth]

18 hours ago, Hiyo said:

There was no duty for Agnes to take in Marion as well.

Which goes back to her having a kind heart under that crustiness.  Also kind?  Letting Peggy live there too.  It is unusual for a personal secretary to live at the home of her employer like part of the household staff.  Agnes was aware that Peggy did not want to go home to her parents (but still insisted they stay in communication) and gave her a safe place to live.

Which reminds me... why was Peggy in PA to begin with?  Is that part of the mystery why she requires an attorney?

 

[DavidJSnyder]

5 hours ago, Haleth said:

 

Which reminds me... why was Peggy in PA to begin with?  Is that part of the mystery why she requires an attorney?

 

She was attending the Institute for Colored Youth in Philadelphia, though I don’t know why she was in Doylestown. 

[Macbeth]

On 2/8/2022 at 11:50 AM, DiabLOL said:

Louisa Jacobson is so terrible, she’s a mumbling blur on my screen in all her scenes. Really a weak point in this show.

I really don’t know what the best move for Peggy should be. I’d say take the money and then really put all your energy into getting published elsewhere without all the lies BUT that wouldn’t work if she used her real name in all the places. 

I deal with Marian - so I can watch Peggy.  She is a much more compelling character.

[Macbeth]

On 2/8/2022 at 8:26 PM, Melina22 said:

I didn't say my opinion was going to be popular. 😁

I agree with you re:  Carrie Coon.  I love Carrie Coon.  She was spectacular in the Leftovers.  

I feel like this role has her tightly wrapped up into a cocoon and I am waiting for the butterfly to emerge.  

Her wardrobe states she is a butterfly but her emotions are wrapped up tight.

But I did really enjoy her scene with Mrs. Morris.  That was great.  

[Macbeth]

On 2/10/2022 at 5:51 PM, Cheezwiz said:

That, in a nutshell is my problem with this show. No one is interesting - least of all the Russells. Their climb is supposed to be one of the main threads of the story, and they're completely flat and one-note. I can totally get behind unlikeable characters if they're fun to watch (O'Brien & Thomas were great villains on Downton). But the Russells aren't fun or entertaining - I'm not moved to root for or against them. I just don't care about their ambitions or machinations at all.

I'm mostly watching to see what happens with Peggy, Aunt Ada, and the mysterious Mrs. Chamberlain. Only the side-characters are holding my interest.

While the tussle over the stock prices is true to life and a view to how the world works - it pales in comparison to Mr. Pamuk dying in Mary's bed. 

The entertainment from that one plot point ( Mary, Cora and Ann carry his body through the halls of Downton Abbey, Violet's reaction to the news etc...) as well as the repercussions from that event (Edith outing Mary) made Downton a massive hit.  

[retired watcher]

Bertha has stated she has bigger things for Gladys, ie herself. She has her eyes on a dollar princess marriage. They have already had the Russels do things the Vanderbilt's did so I am guessing this is in the cards for Gladys.

[retired watcher]

On 2/9/2022 at 10:41 AM, JenE4 said:

You’re just like me. I get so distracted by the set design and the wardrobe that I forget to pay attention to the dialogue. I just wish your screen grab was just a tinge wider to show the five glasses each diner had at their place setting! I spent that whole scene trying to figure out what could have been in each glass (aside from the obvious red wine and water) and paying attention to who drank what. Everyone seemed to be going for the wine or the water. I guess the other cocktail glasses were for different courses? Later on, I almost missed the entire proposal because I was so intrigued by the Statue of Liberty hand and torch! So many gorgeous dresses this episode, too! … As for the action? I guess a lot of things also occurred!

There would be a wine glass for each course. Wine was paired with what was served.

[Roseanna]

On 2/11/2022 at 9:57 PM, RedHawk said:

Or the worst, Mrs. Chamberlain may have been a prostitute, or rumored to be one. Possibly Mrs. C was first her husband’s known mistress (huge double standard about adultery in these circles at that time) and then when widowed he took her as his second wife, as happened in “The Age of Innocence”.

A mistress is not the same as a prostitute.

An upper class man would never marry a prostitute. If he did, It would show that he had lost his reason and nobody would respect him.

Marrying a mistress or rather making long-time cohabiting legal was possible but it was a mesalliance. 

[RedHawk]

4 hours ago, Roseanna said:

A mistress is not the same as a prostitute.

An upper class man would never marry a prostitute. If he did, It would show that he had lost his reason and nobody would respect him.

Marrying a mistress or rather making long-time cohabiting legal was possible but it was a mesalliance. 

Some of these "new money" men did not begin life as upper class. They may have come from nowhere and nothing before making their money, and they may have acquired a wife in the pre-wealth days whose past is very questionable. 

[Carolina Girl]

In "The Age of Innocence" which I believe is set in the decade before this one, Julian Beaufort was known to have a mistress by the name of Annie Ring (Fanny in the book).  He married her after his wife Regina, which was the tie to old money New York, died.   By the end of the book, it's clear that their marriage was obviously sanctioned by Old New York, as the Archer son was marrying the Beaufort/Ring daughter.  

[Adgirl]

Did Mrs. Morris take a condescending posture while asking for a favor? 

[AntFTW]

16 minutes ago, Adgirl said:

Did Mrs. Morris take a condescending posture while asking for a favor? 

Why yes... Yes she did.

[Nedsdag]

Wrong thread.

Edited February 15, 2022 by Nedsdag

[Ms Blue Jay]

On 2/9/2022 at 9:42 AM, pasdetrois said:

I have been distracted by CN's teeth for a while now. Now just in this series. She has a lot of fans, but I find all of her acting to be mannered and affected. She was pretty good in much earlier stuff.

In this series she is pitching her voice higher than normal, and along with her relentless grinning, she ushers me right out of her scenes.

Not after And Just Like That.

[Scarlett45]

On 2/7/2022 at 10:47 PM, sistermagpie said:

I took it that way--and was surprised it didn't occur to Marian!

I wonder if it might turn out to be that the kid actually was premature so she's ostracized for nothing. Still, I would have thought the fact that they were married before the birth would make it respectable, whatever the dates. It can't be the first time a woman got pregnant on her wedding night and had a premature baby.

I’m guessing that they had a thing- but he couldn’t marry her because he was promised to someone (or was already married and she was his mistress) so their son was born out of wedlock;  but either 1. His father died so he could do what he wanted, 2. The engagement fell through, 3. His first wife died and he was old/rich enough to do what he wanted to do so he married his long term mistress long after the birth of their child. They then claimed the boy was “adopted” despite being the spitting image of either parent. 

 

On 2/8/2022 at 9:02 AM, eejm said:

Peggy’s father said she should submit her writing to The New York Globe.  There was a paper by that name, but it was not founded until 1904.  However, I think in this world it is supposed to be a black-owned paper of the time.  Peggy said she sent her stories there but never heard back from them.

I’m curious as to what Peggy’s father does and why she’s so opposed to working for him.  They’re clearly a wealthy family, and I get the feeling that Peggy’s refusal to work for him goes beyond simply wanting to forge her own path.

I’m assuming Peggy’s father owns or is head editor of a black owned newspaper. 

[Scarlett45]

On 2/8/2022 at 2:12 PM, tennisgurl said:

I wonder if she was formally in a "scandalous" profession like theater or dancing when she met her husband, and that's the real reason people are so scandalized by her to the point where they wont even take her money. They'll even take the Russel's money, even if they roll their eyes and wear gloves while doing it to avoid too much contact.

 

I thought of that too. 
 

edited to add- if I was in Peggy’s shoes I would sell those stories to the Christian Advocate, under my pen name- maybe P. Scott “Mother’s madien name”. The editor seemed like a decent guy, he would likely buy more from her. She can keep working on her craft and keep her actual name for stories she still has the copyright to. And I day this as a black woman- Peggy has to think of her long term future, if she wants to be able to write and not be forced to marry she needs to start socking money away now. Agnes gave her a great opportunity as a secretary but that’s a temporary arrangement. 

[phoenics]

On 2/8/2022 at 12:29 AM, AntFTW said:

She doesn't like Tom because he isn't rich and doesn't fit within Agnes's social circle. Tom clearly knows that Marian is broke.

She's still right about him.  I don't know what she means about him being an "adventurer" but she's right that he's trying to use Marian to climb the social ladder and improve his social  - thus by extension his business - standing.  He's shady.  I'm calling it now.  I don't trust him.  But Larry feels dull too.  And Marian is just ... not well cast at all.  Peggy is awesome - I remember the actress from UnREAL - she's killing it here.

I think someone else mentioned they felt Peggy "stole" character traits they believed would have made Marian more interesting but I find Peggy's goal orientedness, spark and gumption make a lot more sense given that she HAD to have goals being an African American woman of the times.  In fact, Marian is failing as a character precisely because her "disruptor" attitude clashes so harshly with her actual circumstance.  Peggy is pursuing goals within the confines of her social status - while Marian appears ready to just break things for the sake of breaking them - she has zero concept of what it means to take care of herself - she's been rescued her entire life.  She's playing with fire because she's never known consequences.  She's SO realistic to me and reminds me of SO many privileged women I know.

Peggy reminds me of me - a go getter because she HAS to be.

Anyway Agnes is right about Raikes.  But I still don't really like her very much.  I don't like the old money people much at all.  I think it's because none of them earned it.  The money is aristocratic money handed down.  The Russells and other new money families like the Rockefellers earned it.  The Rockefellers actually funded my alma mater so there's that.  Plus in society today - those families (the Vanderbilts, Rockefellers, Carnegies, Morgans, etc) are the big names.  They've outlived the old money families none of us have ever heard of unless we specifically went looking.

I just find the old money snobbishness to be based in fear and insecurity - because even the old money knows their time on top of the heap is ending.  Why shouldn't I choose the Russells?  Big Daddy Russell shutting down that bazaar after the ladies stupidly crossed his wife was DELICIOUS to me - mostly because it proved the old money families couldn't just push the new money folks around with no consequences.  And then he did it again with the aldermen - who deserved it.  He didn't make that man kill himself - and honestly I was happy to see Mrs Morris brought down after she was such a snobby and stuck up b!tch to Bertha Russell.  The old money women have been rude to Bertha's face - who has NEVER been rude first to any of them.  Not one.  NEVER happened.  She has only ever retaliated when attacked.

The old money ladies sit and preen as though they are on top of the heap because - what - God willed it so?  Nah - I refuse to buy into that.  Some say Bertha needs to show why she deserves to be included in society - as though the old money women have shown why they deserve to be?  Seriously? It's class based - not "how good you are" based.   

So when Marian sits with the old money ladies and translates their snobby actions back to them in real time - I cackle.  They try to snub as though somehow they are the arbiters of all that is right and good when they are nothing and are quickly approaching the END of their era.

I'm so happy to see it unfold.

This story is the opposite of Downton Abbey.  Rather than being focused on the family trying to hold onto their fading aristocracy, this story is about the emergence of new money taking over and relegating the old money to the dustbins of history.

The ONLY old family left today are the Astors.  Thassit.  The rest are new money families (Rockefellers, Vanderbilts, Morgans, Goldman, Sachs).  I'm looking forward to seeing the old families decline one by one and Agnes needing to be carried out on a stretcher with smelling salts eventually as all of the "norms" she holds dear are stripped away.

Sure - eventually I'm sure the new money families will be destroyed too (or at least severely diminished) - so many new money families were in the stock market crash back then - but I really think this story is more about the old money families being stripped away and replaced by the new.

Long live the Russells, Vanderbilts, Rockefellers, Morgans, etc.

God I love this show.

 

 

On 2/13/2022 at 3:11 PM, retired watcher said:

Bertha has stated she has bigger things for Gladys, ie herself. She has her eyes on a dollar princess marriage. They have already had the Russels do things the Vanderbilt's did so I am guessing this is in the cards for Gladys.

I agree - she's angling for her to pull an Astor or a Vanderbilt and marry royalty.  It probably won't happen, but it will be fun to see all the royal pomp and circumstance when it comes to the show eventually.

[sistermagpie]

23 minutes ago, phoenics said:

I think someone else mentioned they felt Peggy "stole" character traits they believed would have made Marian more interesting but I find Peggy's goal orientedness, spark and gumption make a lot more sense given that she HAD to have goals being an African American woman of the times.  In fact, Marian is failing as a character precisely because her "disruptor" attitude clashes so harshly with her actual circumstance.  Peggy is pursuing goals within the confines of her social status - while Marian appears ready to just break things for the sake of breaking them - she has zero concept of what it means to take care of herself - she's been rescued her entire life.  She's playing with fire because she's never known consequences.  She's SO realistic to me and reminds me of SO many privileged women I know.

 

I think this is what the original poster meant, in a way. Not that Peggy has characteristics that by right are Marian's, but that Peggy obviously embodies these qualities you'd want in the heroine, while it's hard for them to find ways to really show them with Marian. Sure they try to show her as a disrupter, but as you say, she's just playing at it without being able to imagine many consequences. 

Edited March 13, 2022 by sistermagpie

[phoenics]

12 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

I think this is what the original poster meant, in a way. Not that Peggy has characteristics that by right are Marian's, but that Peggy obviously embodies these qualities you'd want in the heroine, while it's hard for them to find ways to really show them with Marian. Sure they try to show her as a disrupter, but as you say, she's just playing at it without being able to imagine many consequences. 

I guess I just don't see Marian as the heroine?  Is she the lead - I haven't really looked at the billing.

So far, Bertha Russell feels more like a heroine to me.  Marian is just there to provoke the old guard and risk her tenuous position, lol.

[sistermagpie]

22 minutes ago, phoenics said:

I guess I just don't see Marian as the heroine?  Is she the lead - I haven't really looked at the billing.

So far, Bertha Russell feels more like a heroine to me.  Marian is just there to provoke the old guard and risk her tenuous position, lol.

I think Marian is the heroine. She's our pov character, its her arrival in the city that is the point of the show, she's the character connected to everyone, and not just as an observer. She's the ingenue a guy followed to the city to win her hand etc. We know her backstory. Bertha's a more dynamic character, but I think Marian's the heroine.

[phoenics]

19 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

I think Marian is the heroine. She's our pov character, its her arrival in the city that is the point of the show, she's the character connected to everyone, and not just as an observer. She's the ingenue a guy followed to the city to win her hand etc. We know her backstory. Bertha's a more dynamic character, but I think Marian's the heroine.

Hmmmm.... this might be similar to OITNB where the "heroine" isn't really the character people follow the show for - the other characters are far more interesting?

[izabella]

2 hours ago, phoenics said:

Long live the Russells, Vanderbilts, Rockefellers, Morgans, etc.

They're all robber barons who made their money exploiting their workers who had no recourse in those days without regulations, without OSHA, and without health care coverage.  They didn't even have laws about paying overtime, or child labor, so the robber barons made their money on the backs of poor people who suffered dearly for it. 

IMO, that's not worthy of admiration so I can't cheer them on against the old money.  In the end, new money made their society just as exclusive and shitty to anyone not in it.  Money is money, and none of them are worthy of cheering on just for their money. 

Edited March 13, 2022 by izabella

[RachelKM]

On 3/13/2022 at 4:58 PM, izabella said:

IMO, that's not worthy of admiration so I can't cheer them on against the old money.  In the end, new money made their society just as exclusive and shitty to anyone not in it.  Money is money, and none of them are worthy of cheering on just for their money. 

Because it's all part of the cycle of the psychology of money. Historically, economic hierarchies were often built on some form of military brutality and economic exploitation.  But then once the status is conferred, whether through early generations' service to a monarch or industrious (and eventually exploitative) business acumen, it's hard to justify gross wealth disparities, especially inherited wealth disparities, unless you sell yourselves on a myth that those in the higher classes are by their birth and upbringing morally, physically, and/or culturally superior to those of the other classes. Which by its nature means that people attempting upward mobility are inferior to those already in the class and do not belong, shouldn't be trusted, and have the potential to destroy, or at least dilute, the superiority of the class if they succeed

When the climbers create their own upper classes, they begin selling themselves the same myth.

 

Edited March 15, 2022 by RachelKM

[Affogato]

On 3/13/2022 at 6:41 PM, phoenics said:

Hmmmm.... this might be similar to OITNB where the "heroine" isn't really the character people follow the show for - the other characters are far more interesting?

The core person in a show is almost always the ‘least interesting’—fewer exaggerated characteristics and able to interact with everyone. 

Edited March 19, 2022 by Affogato

[phoenics]

On 3/19/2022 at 8:46 AM, Affogato said:

The core person in a show is almost always the ‘least interesting’—fewer exaggerated characteristics and able to interact with everyone. 

I finally paid enough attention to the credits and Carrie Coons (Bertha) is top billed.  So she's the lead.  That doesn't mean Meryl Streep's daughter can't  be a heroine of the show, but from what I've seen her character isn't really much of a heroine - she's just a shell for the audience like you're saying.  But - which audience?

I'm also not sure I agree the core person in a show is always least interesting?  That's like saying Bruce Wayne isn't interesting?  Or Olivia Pope?  I feel like some want Marian to be the heroine - maybe because she "looks" the part?  Young, blonde, privileged but kinda rebellious woman?  And maybe why some are upset that Peggy got the "strength" and "go get em" qualities some wanted in their "heroine"?  What's funny is several women around Marian have these qualities in spades, but she's severely lacking.

Again - which audience is she a shell for?

I dunno - I don't think the show sees Marian as its heroine at all - like I just saw in the credits - Carrie Coons is the lead on this show.  Meryl Streep's daughter is much further down in the credits.