S01.E03: Face the Music

[J-Man]

13 minutes ago, phoenics said:

I finally paid enough attention to the credits and Carrie C**** (Bertha) is top billed. 

Her name is Carrie C***, not C****.

[emmawoodhouse]

53 minutes ago, phoenics said:

I finally paid enough attention to the credits and Carrie C**** (Bertha) is top billed.  So she's the lead.  That doesn't mean Meryl Streep's daughter can't  be a heroine of the show, but from what I've seen her character isn't really much of a heroine - she's just a shell for the audience like you're saying.  But - which audience?

I'm also not sure I agree the core person in a show is always least interesting?  That's like saying Bruce Wayne isn't interesting?  Or Olivia Pope?  I feel like some want Marian to be the heroine - maybe because she "looks" the part?  Young, blonde, privileged but kinda rebellious woman?  And maybe why some are upset that Peggy got the "strength" and "go get em" qualities some wanted in their "heroine"?  What's funny is several women around Marian have these qualities in spades, but she's severely lacking.

Again - which audience is she a shell for?

I dunno - I don't think the show sees Marian as its heroine at all - like I just saw in the credits - Carrie C**** is the lead on this show.  Meryl Streep's daughter is much further down in the credits.

Louisa Jacobson is billed third, only behind C*** and Spector. That's not " much further" down the credits. Did she deserve third billing? Probably not.

[Affogato]

11 hours ago, phoenics said:

I finally paid enough attention to the credits and Carrie C**** (Bertha) is top billed.  So she's the lead.  That doesn't mean Meryl Streep's daughter can't  be a heroine of the show, but from what I've seen her character isn't really much of a heroine - she's just a shell for the audience like you're saying.  But - which audience?

I'm also not sure I agree the core person in a show is always least interesting?  That's like saying Bruce Wayne isn't interesting?  Or Olivia Pope?  I feel like some want Marian to be the heroine - maybe because she "looks" the part?  Young, blonde, privileged but kinda rebellious woman?  And maybe why some are upset that Peggy got the "strength" and "go get em" qualities some wanted in their "heroine"?  What's funny is several women around Marian have these qualities in spades, but she's severely lacking.

Again - which audience is she a shell for?

I dunno - I don't think the show sees Marian as its heroine at all - like I just saw in the credits - Carrie C**** is the lead on this show.  Meryl Streep's daughter is much further down in the credits.

Bruce Wayne is surounded by the batfamily, and he is by far the least interesting person in the story. Batman is more interesting. Dick is more interesting. Tim, Damian, Selina...Alfred is more interesting. Barbara is more interesting. Comissioner Gordon...you get the point. I mean, obviously traumatized as a child, driven, smart and practices shit all the time, but not the most interesting.

Credits are negotiated primarily by agents. I'm sure the actors and the show have opinions about it, but my admittedly amateur understanding is that it is a whole other thing.

Okay, there is probably a language for this, but I do not have a degree in television and don' t know it, and this is not my preferred genre--neither romance nor comedies of manners.

My observation is that, while Jerry Seinfeld is a hugely successful comedian, in the context of his show he was the more or less normal person that was the center of a group of wacky friends (who might not have been together, were it not for him).  Meredith Gray went to work at a hospital and met a lot of people who had many soapy adventures, including her romantic interests, and she was relatively the normal one, but she was one who was individually friends (or something) with all of them. David Boreanaz is not necessarily the best actor in any of his shows, but he is a good anchor for ensemble shows.

Peggy cannot, in the context of this show, perform this function because she is black (I guess Bridgerton has worked around this, I haven't watched it), however she has given us entrance into the black crowds on the street, the newspaper world, her own family, her contact with servants, acts of racism. But we know about these things because she tells Marion about them or encounters them when she is out with Marion.  Marion also has access to Mrs Chamberlain's house and to the Russells. She can go anywhere, so she is our eyes into these places.

Marion is the absolutely new person who comes to town and encounters all of these things. She isn't the most interesting of the people she encounters. Peggy, George, Bertha, Agnes, Mrs Chamberlain, Barton are all more interesting, but she is how we meet them.

So far this show has 9 episodes (barely of third of the first season of a network show, not too long ago) and I bet it plans on continuing for a while. Marion will probably get more of a storyline and if she really can't rise to it, it may be she will be relegated to a stagnant pool at the side of the river of story, but for these few episodes, she is our entry into society.

Note that I didn't say 'heroine'. I don't know Fellowes shows well enough to know how he is going to structure them. I'm guessing C*** is the 'heroine' or lead in most ways and there is unlikely to be one single character we are following to romantic fulfillment. I don't think this show is a romance story, although it may contain them. I could be wrong.

 

 

Edited March 22, 2022 by Affogato

[SomeTameGazelle]

On 2/8/2022 at 3:12 PM, tennisgurl said:

So we find out Mrs. Chamberlain's terrible secret, that she and her husband had a child out of wedlock, but I think there is more to it than that. Yes that was a really big deal back then, but the way people treat her like she's a plague carrier seems to hint that there is more to the story that Ada's didn't say. I wonder if she was formally in a "scandalous" profession like theater or dancing when she met her husband, and that's the real reason people are so scandalized by her to the point where they wont even take her money.

 If Mrs. Chamberlain had a scandalous profession I think Ada would have found that easier to explain to her innocent unmarried niece.

The story seems weird in a way that feels like bad writing. My guess is that it may turn out that the Chamberlains really did adopt a child that was not their own but the rumour took hold and Mrs Chamberlain can't fight it or is covering for someone else.  But in reality I'm not convinced that society would have been compelled to shun Mrs. Chamberlain because she's currently legitimately married and she has the adoption story that nobody needs to disbelieve unless they really want to.  It smells off.

 

 

 

On 2/9/2022 at 1:55 PM, Melina22 said:

Wow, really? That's so surprising! I can't say I agree with him. I find them quite repugnant. 

"Protagonist" does not imply any moral evaluation of character. It simply indicates the focus of the story. The protagonist can be a terrible person and the antagonist perfectly virtuous. 

 

 

On 2/10/2022 at 8:31 AM, eejm said:

The colors, styles, and prints each of the women wore were chosen carefully.  Marian’s color scheme is (unsurprisingly) pastels to convey her innocence and newness to the city.

I’ve never been a big fan of pastels (give me deep jewel tones any day), but I think they suit Marian.

I am annoyed that they avoided putting Marian in mourning by having Agnes forbid it. I thought at first when we saw her in a pale purple shade that she was trying to approximate something mournish but obviously not. 

On 3/13/2022 at 5:16 PM, phoenics said:

She's still right about him.  I don't know what she means about him being an "adventurer" but she's right that he's trying to use Marian to climb the social ladder and improve his social  - thus by extension his business - standing.  He's shady.  

One use of adventurer (or perhaps more often adventuress) is someone who will selfishly take advantage of you. They might marry you for your money or seduce and abandon you. 

Edited March 23, 2022 by SomeTameGazelle
Deleted out of place quote

[phoenics]

22 hours ago, emmawoodhouse said:

Louisa Jacobson is billed third, only behind C*** and Spector. That's not " much further" down the credits. Did she deserve third billing? Probably not.

It’s far enough down that she’s definitively NOT the lead. I don’t think she’s the heroine either - I think it’s inertia propelling some to posit that she is - because they are used to the young white ingenue being the lead. 
 

Someone else’s comments about Peggy not being able to be that because she’s black (thanks for proving my point) simply reinforce that for me. 
 

Again - WHICH audience is Marian supposed to be the heroine for? Is it because some have decided Carrie is too old? They don’t like Bertha? None of that erases she was given top billing. She’s the lead and appears to be the heroine. 
 

I think the word people might be searching for in order to describe Marian is “stand in”. She’s an empty shell for some audience members to stand in. But not all audiences. Some might prefer to “stand in” Peggy’s shoes, race or not. Or Grace’s.

As the story progresses, I suppose we will see. 
 

12 hours ago, Affogato said:

Note that I didn't say 'heroine'.

But that’s what my comments were about specifically - the “who’s the heroine” discussion.  My point about Bruce Wayne is, there would never be a show where Bruce Wayne (as Batman) existed as lead and fans deciding Alfred was the hero over him. Or Barbara. Or Grayson. On THIS show, Carrie is lead. I find the term heroine only even came up as a way to give the Marian character more status on the show than seems warranted by her billing and subpar performance.

[sistermagpie]

44 minutes ago, phoenics said:

But that’s what my comments were about specifically - the “who’s the heroine” discussion.  My point about Bruce Wayne is, there would never be a show where Bruce Wayne (as Batman) existed as lead and fans deciding Alfred was the hero over him. Or Barbara. Or Grayson. On THIS show, Carrie is lead. I find the term heroine only even came up as a way to give the Marian character more status on the show than seems warranted by her billing and subpar performance.

Marian still seems like she's supposed to be the main protagonist to me. Of course Carrie C*** is a bigger name and her part is flashier, but despite Marian's dullness I think we see her in more varied sitautions and are following her development more as well. Bertha isn't Batman and neither is Marian. But Marian's the one who's meeting new people and evolving and learning.

But still, it's a soapy TV show, so plenty of characters have their own stories. Peggy has her own story, but she's changing Marian more than Marian's changing her. Bertha didn't change at all.

Edited March 23, 2022 by sistermagpie

[Affogato]

On 3/21/2022 at 11:25 PM, phoenics said:

I finally paid enough attention to the credits and Carrie C**** (Bertha) is top billed.  So she's the lead.  That doesn't mean Meryl Streep's daughter can't  be a heroine of the show, but from what I've seen her character isn't really much of a heroine - she's just a shell for the audience like you're saying.  But - which audience?

I'm also not sure I agree the core person in a show is always least interesting?  That's like saying Bruce Wayne isn't interesting?  Or Olivia Pope?  I feel like some want Marian to be the heroine - maybe because she "looks" the part?  Young, blonde, privileged but kinda rebellious woman?  And maybe why some are upset that Peggy got the "strength" and "go get em" qualities some wanted in their "heroine"?  What's funny is several women around Marian have these qualities in spades, but she's severely lacking.

Again - which audience is she a shell for?

I dunno - I don't think the show sees Marian as its heroine at all - like I just saw in the credits - Carrie C**** is the lead on this show.  Meryl Streep's daughter is much further down in the credits.

I actually think Peggy and Marian are supposed to be the people we find relatable. I don't think the anchor of a show, so to speak, is always the least interesting, but I do think they share characteristics. thinking Mary Tyler Moore, David Boreanaz, they play off quirky and unusual people, but their goals and needs and paths tend to be the relatable ones.

[Camera One]

I do find this show relatively engaging, but I'm still not able to root for anyone.

The Russells are the underdogs, but they are so slimy, vengeful and self-important that I can't cheer them on.  Especially with his game resulting in a suicide now.

Marian has never expressed a romantic interest in the lawyer from the first scene.  Nothing has indicated she has changed her mind, so it's almost like she's leading him on.

Peggy's story is alright, but not overly interesting either.  Maybe she could have sold one of the stories she didn't care as much about, though I don't know if it was an all-or-nothing deal.

I did feel badly for Ada, with that old "friend" coming back.  Though it was sort of fun to see Agnes handling that situation after feigning she could barely remember the guy.