S01.E06: Saints

[BitterApple]

20 minutes ago, blixie said:

I finally had a chance to re-watch and yeah when he said look, I was like AT WHAT, I just heard the rustling. My multifocal lenses are getting a damn workout.
 

In the kitchen before Jeff reminds her about brunch, she's looking at what appears to be a postcard, before folding it up and putting it in her pocket.  Shauna lies a LOT so it wouldn't surprise me if it was the same postcard everyone else got.

 

To your first point, don't feel bad about faulty eyesight! It takes me three viewings to catch half this stuff!

To the second, I thought the postcard Shauna pulled out of her pocket was the one Nat handed to her at the motel? You could be right though, because she is very cagey about what she reveals. Lying is absolutely within Shauna's character. I probably should've left her as a wildcard in my original post.

Edited December 21, 2021 by BitterApple

[Dminches]

Maybe I am in the minority but i don’t think these shows are meant to be watched frame by frame so that the viewer can play detective.  If the story doesn’t come across via normal viewing then it hasn’t been made well.

[Cinnabon]

1 hour ago, Dminches said:

Maybe I am in the minority but i don’t think these shows are meant to be watched frame by frame so that the viewer can play detective.  If the story doesn’t come across via normal viewing then it hasn’t been made well.

I agree. They even used unknown extras to film the scenes from the pilot where the girl runs into the pit and one is hung, so trying to compare eye colors, etc to the main cast is pointless.

[Bulldog]

I laughed out loud when Shauna said she hated her daughter right after the Taylors said that Callie reminded them of Jackie.  

Was it my imagination, or did the number of survivors appear to increase this week?  Granted, most of the girls were glorified extras, but there seemed to be more of them than previously.  I wonder if the writers suddenly realized that they needed a few extras to kill off at some point.  Really, beyond the four who we know made it to adulthood, I have a hard time keeping the other girls straight.   There's Jackie, who is obviously the most important character that we haven't seen as an adult, then Lottie=crazy; Laura Lee=religious; and Van=lesbian.  I really don't know any of the other girls beyond those by name.     

[Broderbits]

1 hour ago, Dminches said:

Maybe I am in the minority but i don’t think these shows are meant to be watched frame by frame so that the viewer can play detective.

That may be true, but I think the reality is that many people do look at every little thing hoping to catch some puzzle piece or clue. I offer as an example Westworld; people on this board went through that like buzzards picking over a carcass. Also Titans and Doom Patrol, even Billions.

[Cinnabon]

1 hour ago, Broderbits said:

That may be true, but I think the reality is that many people do look at every little thing hoping to catch some puzzle piece or clue. I offer as an example Westworld; people on this board went through that like buzzards picking over a carcass. Also Titans and Doom Patrol, even Billions.

Some people have a lot of time on their hands 😂.

[BitterApple]

2 hours ago, Bulldog said:

 Granted, most of the girls were glorified extras, but there seemed to be more of them than previously.  I wonder if the writers suddenly realized that they needed a few extras to kill off at some point.  

I'm thinking there's going to be one or two deaths by the season finale, which may explain why the redshirts have randomly reappeared. I'd completely forgotten about them until I saw girls I didn't recognize in this episode. 

 

[paulvdb]

10 hours ago, heatherchandler said:

I don't understand this theory.  I don't see people being left behind.  It's not like rescuers would find some of them and then just leave without searching the land thoroughly.  I have never been involved in a search and rescue but I doubt they would just take who they see and leave.

Of course the rescuers would not leave anyone behind on purpose, but if some of the girls were found and said there were no other survivors would the rescuers just not believe them and go looking for them anyway?

[hoodooznoodooz]

On 12/19/2021 at 12:07 PM, MCMLXXVII said:

Who schedules brunch on a Wednesday?

Sooo much wicker in Jackie’s room. Ooof, always hated white wicker, and that whole Laura Ashley look.
I’m assuming Jackie was an only child from the way her parents have kind of fixated on Shauna? It seems all the girls been shown to be onlies so far, a bit unusual.

A Wednesday brunch is just weird! Tuna quiche is also bizarre.

Wicker is terrible. I haven’t thought of Laura Ashley in decades!! Nice call. I hated that aesthetic and motif also. So prim and proper.

They are so fixated yet also seem determined to punish Shauna for surviving. Jeff sure has her back.

[I have only watched half of this episode. Please forgive me if some issues pivot in the other half.]
 

Lots of onlies. Travis seems to be the only character with a sibling.

[Tatum]

11 hours ago, blixie said:

I finally had a chance to re-watch and yeah when he said look, I was like AT WHAT, I just heard the rustling. My multifocal lenses are getting a damn workout.
 

In the kitchen before Jeff reminds her about brunch, she's looking at what appears to be a postcard, before folding it up and putting it in her pocket.  Shauna lies a LOT so it wouldn't surprise me if it was the same postcard everyone else got.

 

That's what I thought! I was sure Shauna got a postcard.

[Tatum]

54 minutes ago, hoodooznoodooz said:

Wicker is terrible

Bite your tongue! In the mid 1990s I remember totally coveting this white wicker bedroom set from Pier One and my mom was like nope.

 

8 hours ago, Bulldog said:

Was it my imagination, or did the number of survivors appear to increase this week? 

I freeze framed and counted during the Dollhouse, which I think was the only shot wide enough that included everyone. Yes, you can argue I have too much time on my hands. It is very unusual for me to watch a series in real time. I counted 16 people, including Travis, Javi, and coach Ben. There are the four known survivors, the four that don't have adult counterparts but regularly have speaking lines- Van, Jackie, Lottie, and Laura Lee- the JV girl who befriended Taissa and knows about poisonous flowers and mushrooms, the snotty pigtailed girl who complains about everything, one girl who is very skinny and has dark roots, one girl who is heavier and has short hair, and one girl I have not identified. The last three have not had any lines, I don't think. Pigtail Girl is probably going to bite it soon. I don't think the number of survivors has increased, they just are very rarely all in one shot together.

 

10 hours ago, Dminches said:

Maybe I am in the minority but i don’t think these shows are meant to be watched frame by frame so that the viewer can play detective.  If the story doesn’t come across via normal viewing then it hasn’t been made well.

Oh, I have no doubt things will unfold and be more or less spoon fed to viewers, I think some people just like to look for hints and stay ahead of the curve. If for example, Jackie does make it back to NJ alive, that will obviously play out in an episode. I don't know if the showrunners are intentionally dropping easter eggs for eagle eyed viewers, or if they just made a boo boo. But the nice thing is, we will all find out, probably in 4 weeks :). Really, why didn't they just have Jackie write, Dylan McKay forever, in her diary. Most of us 90s gals could relate.

[snarts]

I'm typically not one who picks up on all the little clues/details to which I blame my old lady eyes but I did notice something when Lottie got up in the middle of the night.  As she grabbed the lantern, she seemingly paused for a minute perfectly framed by the light & antler head.  It was very reminiscent of the "offering" scene where they are all wearing hoods/headpieces, with one of them seemingly the Antler Queen.  

Now that Laura Lee sees Lottie as a visionary, could the others start to as well & she is the Antler Queen? 

The final scene with Tai in the tree freaked me the fuck out.  Where the hell are they going with that one?

[EdnasEdibles]

I enjoy this show but I can't read any of the text messages if my life depended upon it. They don't keep them up on the screen long enough, the words are too small and I refuse to spend the entire episode pausing the show, walking up to my TV and reading and then going to sit back down again. This is being 45 years old, I guess. I got my eyes checked in the spring and my glasses supposedly work fine. I can't read any of that stuff. 

[heatherchandler]

1 hour ago, snarts said:

I'm typically not one who picks up on all the little clues/details to which I blame my old lady eyes but I did notice something when Lottie got up in the middle of the night.  As she grabbed the lantern, she seemingly paused for a minute perfectly framed by the light & antler head.  It was very reminiscent of the "offering" scene where they are all wearing hoods/headpieces, with one of them seemingly the Antler Queen.  

 

I noticed that too.

[TVMovieBuff]

33 minutes ago, EdnasEdibles said:

I enjoy this show but I can't read any of the text messages if my life depended upon it. They don't keep them up on the screen long enough, the words are too small and I refuse to spend the entire episode pausing the show, walking up to my TV and reading and then going to sit back down again. This is being 45 years old, I guess. I got my eyes checked in the spring and my glasses supposedly work fine. I can't read any of that stuff. 

I am 66 with glaucoma, so you can imagine. I do the same thing, sometimes, jump off the bed, rush to the TV, rewind and read the text. That's not so good. I wish they would show the text in a side panel of the screen in big print. 

[WaltersHair]

3 hours ago, Tatum said:

.I freeze framed and counted during the Dollhouse, which I think was the only shot wide enough that included everyone. Yes, you can argue I have too much time on my hands. It is very unusual for me to watch a series in real time. I counted 16 people,

I counted 18 from The Dollhouse. I think they were using a few standins as crash survivors

1. Coach
2 Jackie
3 Shauna
4. Tai
5. Natalie
6. Van
7. Laura Lee
8 Lottie
9. Akilah -knows her mushrooms
10 Mari -Jackie wannabe
11 Javi
12 Travis
13 Misty
14. blond not Laura lee
15 dark skinned girl not Akilah
16 red head not Van
17 girl wearing gray t-shirt
18 very tall light skinned girl not Tai

ETA I think I've found another

19. short haired girl wearing the number 15 at the funeral.

Best thing about this series is that it stands on its own without worrying with the easter eggs. I have December off, so I'm all about finding clues.

Edited December 21, 2021 by WaltersHair

[Tatum]

4 minutes ago, WaltersHair said:

14. blond not Laura lee
15 dark skinned girl not Akilah
16 red head not Van
17 very short hair?
18 very tall light skinned girl not Tai

I will have to go back and look at some point. I know in Dollhouse there was a girl with stringy, chin length light brown hair that was much darker at the roots carrying Ben's stretcher to the lake- she maybe could be considered a dark blond? Is that the one you saw? I don't recall another redhead or another dark skinned girl that wasn't Akilah but there certainly could be. The shot I froze was them all running to the lake and maybe I didn't pause it in time to get everyone.

 

That's a lot of survivors still left- this season is 10 episodes, correct? I think from the flashbacks were are now about 8-10 weeks in. If they intended to tell the full story of what happened in the wilderness all in this season they are going to have to pack a lot into the next 4 episodes. I wonder if a lot of people die all at once or are picked off one at a time? Or perhaps only a few die and the group splits into two camps?

[BitterApple]

Thinking about the brunch this morning and something stands out to me. When Jeff told the Taylors he was screwing Shauna while coupled up with Jackie, they looked genuinely stunned. I wonder what this means for Shauna's wilderness pregnancy? Is that one of the big secrets? I can see her miscarrying or the child dying in infancy, but did she not tell anyone upon return? I'd always figured Jeff married her out of guilt, but maybe he doesn't even know? It just occurred to me there's been no mention or reference in the present to Shauna's first child. As it stands now, Tai is the only one who knows in the past. Could be nothing, but I thought it was an interesting detail.

I'm probably getting ahead of myself, but if the girls were rescued in late '97 or early '98, I wonder what Shauna did between then and marrying Jeff in 2001? The latter date would coincide with Jeff graduating from college (assuming he went), but that's a lot of dead time for Shauna. Since the present-day stuff is getting draggy, I hope at least one season covers the aftermath of the rescue. I think there's a ton of good material for storylines.

 

Edited December 21, 2021 by BitterApple

[Nicmar]

On 12/19/2021 at 5:43 PM, Tatum said:

  Reveal spoiler

Ohhh man. I can't imagine that's an error. If someone took the time to identify characters Jackie might have liked, I can't believe they wouldn't check things like release dates.

(Spoiler tagged just in case, even though this was from this episode).

 

I like the Reddit comment that Jackie wanting to be Angela from American Beauty needs a whole thread of its own. I mean, that honestly makes ZERO sense. The whole point of her character arc was that she was so desperate to avoid being ordinary, which she absolutely was. I mean, you could draw parallels between Angela and Jackie, but who would actually want to be Angela?

 

ETA: Screenshot actually says movie characters I would be, not movie characters I want to be. But I don't know what she'd have in common with Mia Wallace from Pulp Fiction nor why anyone would want to be this character. For that matter, Pulp Fiction doesn't really fit in with most of the chick flicks Jackie listed. That would be so typical of a teen girl to pick her because her boyfriend made her watch the movie and said Uma Thurman was hot. I swear, I think all these characters are at least loosely based on people the writers knew in high school.

Where did movie characters come from all I saw was favorite bands and song in the journal...?

[backhometome]

I really enjoy this show.

I like watching the teenaged survivors more than the adult versions. I find the adults kinda boring. Particularly the Shauna/Adam plot. 

Jackies mom is a bitch. Talk about passive aggressive. 

[Tatum]

11 minutes ago, Nicmar said:

Where did movie characters come from all I saw was favorite bands and song in the journal...?

The link Bitter Apple posted shows 3-4 separate screen shots and the last one is movie characters Jackie would be (either because she is similar to them or wants to be them, is not clear).

Cher from Clueless, Mia from Pulp Fiction, and Vada from My Girl are all before 1996. Sydney from Scream is close- pretty sure the movie was released in late 96 though. Rose from Titanic was from 1997, Torrance from Bring it On was 2000. Who am I forgetting? About half the list referenced movie characters from movies released after the summer of 1996.

 

ETA: duh Tatum, I talked about it on the previous page. Angela from American Beauty and Kat from 10 Things I Hate About You, and both were in 1999 I think.

 

ETA again: totally OT, but who were the Hollywood It girls of 1996? It would be several years before the WB actresses and Jennifer Love Hewitt were in every teen movie. I remember Claire Danes and Winona Ryder were kind of popular, but I will admit I never cared for either of them. I think Angelina Jolie was popular back then. Most of the Hollywood heavy hitters though were older (by older I mean not teenagers) actresses at the time, I think.

Edited December 21, 2021 by Tatum

[blixie]

Quote

I counted 18 from The Dollhouse.

That sounds about right I was guessing more like 20 total survivors including coach Josh from The Vampire Diaries, Javi, Travis, and Misty, and then 11 starting players w/3-5 bench players including two from JV, one who died the other is Akilah. 

Quote

Or perhaps only a few die and the group splits into two camps?

If this rescue mission really happens, and right after Lottie/Laura Lee have decided she's being giving visions from God I'd guess that's the initial split, but I am assuming everyone we know who made it back is in the group who leaves, save Misty, this may be the real source of their guilt rather than them leading the way to being feral, it was those they left behind even briefly who fell into chaos w/o the seemingly strongest members of "the team". But I think it will be more complicated and nuanced than that, especially if the main four Nat/Travis/Tai/Shauna return after failing to find help/way out of the woods. This is could also help Shauna hide being pregnant from Jackie before she starts to show.

[Anela]

16 hours ago, Broderbits said:

That may be true, but I think the reality is that many people do look at every little thing hoping to catch some puzzle piece or clue. I offer as an example Westworld; people on this board went through that like buzzards picking over a carcass. Also Titans and Doom Patrol, even Billions.

I sometimes wish that I felt that excited over something, even if it's just a TV show. I remember pages and pages of threads for LOST. I gave up early on, and just read what everyone else posted. 

[Broderbits]

37 minutes ago, Anela said:

I gave up early on, and just read what everyone else posted. 

LOL, that's what I did with Westworld! So I'm very grateful to everyone here paying such close attention to details that my ancient eyes are missing. Your efforts are much appreciated!

[Cinnabon]

1 hour ago, Anela said:

I sometimes wish that I felt that excited over something, even if it's just a TV show. I remember pages and pages of threads for LOST. I gave up early on, and just read what everyone else posted. 

I’m so glad I never watched that one.

[Dewey Decimate]

I want to feel bad for Coach when he's eventually offed by psychotic Nurse Munchausen, but how in the hell has he not said anything to anyone along the lines of "hey, girls, Misty poisoned me, tripped me, and is unnaturally obsessed with me - could you possibly keep an eye out?" I thought he might say something to Travis, but it was just the condom hand-off.

Edited December 22, 2021 by Dewey Decimate
typo

[WaltersHair]

31 minutes ago, Dewey Decimate said:

I want to feel bad for Coach when he's eventually offed by psychotic Nurse Muchausen, but how in the hell has he not said anything to anyone along the lines of "hey, girls, Misty poisoned me, tripped me, and is unnaturally obsessed with me - could you possibly keep an eye out?" I thought he might say something to Travis, but it was just the condom hand-off.

Not only that, but coach has to go because whenever the group flips out, he comes in and settles them down: the bear being attacked by wolves, and the velvet shedding in deer. Without him coming in as an adult and acknowledged leader, the teens are going to jump to all kinds of conclusions.

[Cotypubby]

On 12/20/2021 at 4:37 PM, BitterApple said:

You can see the body of the deer being dragged along the ground before Nat and Travis stepped out of the plane. It's at the time stamp I mentioned. I actually didn't notice it until I re-watched because it's such a quick shot. 

 

It doesn’t look like it’s being dragged, that’s its back moving as it walks past the plane wreckage. There is nothing to suggest the deer wasn’t shot.

Edited December 22, 2021 by Cotypubby

[cincivic]

In the first episode, I noticed Shauna (while in the car waiting for Jackie) was writing in a journal with one of those multi colored click pens. As soon as I saw the diary in Jackie's room, and the writing, I thought Shauna wrote it. But, then again, I am sure lots of teen girls had those pens.

[Ailianna]

1 hour ago, cincivic said:

I am sure lots of teen girls had those pens.

I feel like they handed them out to us with textbooks and menstrual supplies. Not really, but everybody seemed to have them and even with different color combinations. Some people even did homework in different colors.

[peachmangosteen]

Now I wanna buy one of those pens lol. Memories!

[iMonrey]

I loved the scene where Shauna trumped her daughter's attempt at blackmail. Melanie Lynskey is so good in this. She and Christina Ricci are really carrying the present day storyline, IMO. 

[sistermagpie]

On 12/19/2021 at 5:28 PM, BitterApple said:

Are we thinking that collection of rabbit figurines in Shauna's house were all gifts from Jackie's mom? Because if so, then that jives with Jackie dying or being left in the woods at some point during those 19 months. That would also back up why Shauna only sees the teenaged version of her in the present. 

Makes her killing the rabbits in her garden all the more satisfying. And also maybe explains her claims that she didn't have a high school experience when she obviously did--she didn't get the one for "better" girls like Jackie.

On 12/20/2021 at 3:44 PM, BitterApple said:

The brunch was even creepier on rewatch. One thing I didn't pick up the first time was Jackie's father referring to Callie as a "special child." I wonder why? There's been no mention of her having artistic, athletic or academic prowess. She seems like a perfectly average teenager. 

Probably he meant to rub in that she wasn't ordinary like Shauna. Jackie's the most ordinary girl on the whole show, even when dropped into an extraordinary situation, so her parents probably see that as special.

On 12/20/2021 at 11:05 PM, Broderbits said:

That may be true, but I think the reality is that many people do look at every little thing hoping to catch some puzzle piece or clue. I offer as an example Westworld; people on this board went through that like buzzards picking over a carcass. Also Titans and Doom Patrol, even Billions.

In a case like this, though, I don't think the diary is so much a clue that we're supposed to pick up for a theory so much as something that's just true in the universe that would come out later. Eventually we'll find out how Jackie died or didn't (maybe we already have--I've got a couple eps to go before the finale tomorrow!) and whoever wrote the diary would know what years they were dealing with. It would make sense if it was Shauna, who went right to Jackie's diary when left alone.

On 12/21/2021 at 10:35 PM, Dewey Decimate said:

I want to feel bad for Coach when he's eventually offed by psychotic Nurse Munchausen, but how in the hell has he not said anything to anyone along the lines of "hey, girls, Misty poisoned me, tripped me, and is unnaturally obsessed with me - could you possibly keep an eye out?" I thought he might say something to Travis, but it was just the condom hand-off.

Seriously, why is he handling this by himself? Why not tell somebody - plenty of these girls could be trusted.

[Niuxita]

On 12/19/2021 at 5:28 PM, BitterApple said:

I'm going to rewatch later to pick up on more things, but this episode is going to keep me up at night.

Same. I can't put my finger on why exactly but there was something very haunting about this episode.

I just realized that the reason Tai's hands were dirty as pointed out by Van was probably because she had been out eating dirt in the middle of the night, which means what Lottie saw wasn't a vision but something happening in real time. At first I thought whatever is going on with Tai (split personality?) developed after they were rescued as a sort PTSD, but it's clear this was going on for a while. Seems like my pipe dream of the show not breaking up the Tai/Simone power couple is becoming more and more distant, but at least it won't be because Simone is evil so, small wins? This also probably accounts for Tai suddenly changing her mind about abandoning the race for whatever it is she's campaigning for. Someone on another thread pointed out that there was a moment during her press conference where she looked back at Simone and Sammy and her face changed as if a switch had been flicked inside her and suddenly she changed her whole speech. I wondered if there might be something else going on there, so glad to see a (slight) follow-up on that.

Still cannot figure out what Misty's game is, but something did strike me: she referred to Jessica Roberts as "a terrible person." Now, Misty might be batshit insane and many other things, but she doesn't seem like the kind of person who would say that about someone if it wasn't true. So now I'm thinking Misty in all her citizen detective glory has figured out whatever it is Jessica's real intentions are (beyond being Tai's undercover fake journalist hired to make sure no one would talk and ruin her career) and is about to start having a blast torturing the crap out of her to get her to confess. I wonder if it's so later she can bring her to the others all like, "Look! I solved it!" and get back some of that admiration from them like in the early days of the crash. The conversation they had on the phone was also weird. It almost seemed like they were in on it together at some point, or like they already knew each other, which doesn't actually make much sense.

My heart breaks for poor Lottie. Characters desperately turning to religion because it's the only thing they have left to feel like they're not crazy or to alleviate some of the anguish they feel is really sad to watch. This really turns on its head the idea that she's psychotic/schizophrenic, though, because now we know her issues are not just "hearing voices" but actually having visions that end up coming true (which makes the fact that she takes those meds even sadder, too, because it also means that's the only reason her parents decided to medicate her). However, I don't think this necesarily means the show is turning towards supernatural explanations. I don't personally believe in it, but I know mediums, etc, do seem to exist, so to me the two things can still coexist without the show veering into genre territory.

I chuckled when the coach said that the last thing they needed was a baby to take care of. Man, have I got some bad news for you, coach. (Speaking of, this has been bugging me from day one: did the team have two coaches (the one who died was also referred to as coach, IIRC)? Is that normal? Is the living coach the assistant coach? Why do I even care that much? LOL.)

Edited February 26, 2022 by Niuxita

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, Niuxita said:

 The conversation they had on the phone was also weird. It almost seemed like they were in on it together at some point, or like they already knew each other, which doesn't actually make much sense.

I think Misty was referring to earlier interactions they'd had offscreen, since we know Jessica was meeting with all the survivors.

1 hour ago, Niuxita said:

My heart breaks for poor Lottie. Characters desperately turning to religion because it's the only thing they have left to feel like they're not crazy or to alleviate some of the anguish they feel is really sad to watch. This really turns on its head the idea that she's psychotic/schizophrenic, though, because now we know her issues are not just "hearing voices" but actually having visions that end up coming true (which makes the fact that she takes those meds even sadder, too, because it also means that's the only reason her parents decided to medicate her). However, I don't think this necesarily means the show is turning towards supernatural explanations. I don't personally believe in it, but I know mediums, etc, do seem to exist, so to me the two things can still coexist without the show veering into genre territory.

In rewatching I really started to focus in on Lottie as a truly tragic figure. She seems genuinely scared and has good reason to be, and people either dismiss her fears (for logical reasons) or (also logically) put them into whatever context they have themselves. Of course Laura Lee would assume her visions were from God, but even Laura Lee has no way of knowing what all she's dealing with. And poor Lottie again seeing Tai and naturally wondering if it was real--with Tai herself honestly denying it even though it was true.

Also totally agree that her visions don't have to push the show over the line into "definitely supernatural." Some of Lottie's predictions or visions could easily be vague guesses that turn out to be true in some way in hindsight with interpretation. 

1 hour ago, Niuxita said:

I chuckled when the coach said that the last thing they needed was a baby to take care of. Man, have I got some bad news for you, coach. (Speaking of, this has been bugging me from day one: did the team have two coaches (the one who died was also referred to as coach, IIRC)? Is that normal? Is the living coach the assistant coach? Why do I even care that much? LOL.)

I think they've said that Travis's dad was the coach and the one still alive was the assistant coach. So along with his new disability to make him more vulnerable, he also never had the same kind of authority or experience with the girls as the head coach did anyway. When Ali broke her leg he sent someone to find the head coach about it, etc.

[lasu]

I just binged this entire series, and thoroughly enjoyed it.  So while I'm late to comment, I took Jeff's speech in the car completely differently than the other takes I've seen on here.  I think he was meant to be genuine and sincere, but when he was saying that Jackie would have broken up with him and gone on to lead a life where he was nothing more than a high school flame, I thought he was describing what Shauna's life would have been if it hadn't been for the accident.  Jackie seemed to very much be into the high school thing, and even if she was overall ambivalent about Jeff, she'd gone back to him numerous times as her "safe" choice.  I don't think it's unlikely to think that if the crash hadn't happened, Jackie and Jeff would have ended up being married.  Shauna "should" have been the one to go off and have great adventures, and merely remembered Jeff as the dude she lost her virginity to back in high school. 

[sistermagpie]

16 minutes ago, lasu said:

I just binged this entire series, and thoroughly enjoyed it.  So while I'm late to comment, I took Jeff's speech in the car completely differently than the other takes I've seen on here.  I think he was meant to be genuine and sincere, but when he was saying that Jackie would have broken up with him and gone on to lead a life where he was nothing more than a high school flame, I thought he was describing what Shauna's life would have been if it hadn't been for the accident.  Jackie seemed to very much be into the high school thing, and even if she was overall ambivalent about Jeff, she'd gone back to him numerous times as her "safe" choice.  I don't think it's unlikely to think that if the crash hadn't happened, Jackie and Jeff would have ended up being married.  Shauna "should" have been the one to go off and have great adventures, and merely remembered Jeff as the dude she lost her virginity to back in high school. 

Yeah, I agree--seems like Jeff never had his eyes opened about Jackie and that Shauna's living out the life she knows deep down that Jackie would have had/wanted. She might have met a new guy at Rutgers and dumped Jeff for him, but she wasn't destined to leave him behind for greater things like her parents insisted. I think especially in retrospect we aren't meant to take Jeff's pov about Jackie as all that insightful at all. Which isn't any knock on Jeff--he just wasn't really ever in a position to get it.