S01.E06: So This Is Christmas?

[SnarkShark]

11 hours ago, owenthurman said:

So the armored squadron in episode one that used explosives to attack the auction and steal the watch wanted it so badly because… it had sentimental value to Clint’s wife?

I don’t follow

No.  It was clear at the very least they knew it had a SHIELD logo on it.  That design isn't exactly secret.  

It's incredibly stupid such a thing would exist for a spy, but I think we're supposed to assume its linked to retirement.  One possibility is that maybe they assumed they could get DNA off of it.

The strangest part is that I think even attacking the auction was Maya going rouge.  I STILL think Eleanor was probably running that auction behind the scenes. If that's actually true, then was Maya trying to uncover a SHIELD agent simply to impress her Uncle?  She definitely didn't know the Ronin items were there ahead of time.

11 hours ago, swanpride said:

I guess it was mostly about finding information about Clint's family? I can imagine that Laura is officially dead. A retirement watch would ruin the illusion.

Nobody knew that watch was linked to either Hawkeye OR Ronin. They probably knew it was linked to SOME Avenger, if it was found in the same salvage job as the other stuff, just not which Avenger, and how.

They DID definitely know it belonged to a SHIELD agent.  The stupid logo isn't even hidden.

The watch makes totally no sense for a Spy, so we just have to shrug and not think too hard.

As idiotic as it is, it does give credence to the idea that Laura actually IS Bobbi Morse rather than another Agent 19.  Why?  Because as idiotic as it existing is, if they somehow think DNA can be lifted off it, then in theory they probably believe they can inevitably link Bobbi Morse to whatever her new identity is (she'd have both a new name plus almost defintely a new face).  Not that the chances of finding a random person's DNA is very high, but its the only logic I can think of here.  Although, again, if it was uncovered in the rubble of Avengers HQ, they have the advantage of knowing its linked somehow to an Avenger.

It IS kind of related stupidity to someone finding the Ronin stuff among the Avengers stuff and by process of deduction knowing it really only could belong to an Avenger, one who wasn't blipped, and who was a hand to hand and weapons expert.   Natasha would probably be a big suspect and possibly even Cap.  But also Clint.

11 hours ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

Also, where was Julia Louis-Dreyfus?  Is it just me, or did this show retcon the end-credits scene in Black Widow?

I read that the writers didn't know about that post credit scene in Black Widow. 

It sounds like both the Black Widow movie and Hawkeye show teams were mutually made aware that the show had permission to use Yelena this way, but miscommunicated on how she gets involved.

[Kirbyrun]

7 hours ago, ItCouldBeWorse said:

unless the labels were in braille

In the comics, that’s how Green Arrow tells his trick arrows apart! /comicbookgeek 

[peridot]

5 hours ago, Morrigan2575 said:

I'm kind of thinking no, I can't imagine Netflix Kingpin wearing a Hawaiian shirt.😂

I assumed she did, which is why I assume he'll lose an eye.

Exactly! I was a bit thrown when they showed Kingpin wearing that.  I was expecting him to wear his sharp clothes that were shown in Daredevil.   Even his cheap-looking office threw me.  It's hard to imagine Daredevil's Kingpin surround himself with tackiness.

[Raja]

45 minutes ago, SnarkShark said:

Nobody knew that watch was linked to either Hawkeye OR Ronin. They probably knew it was linked to SOME Avenger, if it was found in the same salvage job as the other stuff, just not which Avenger, and how.

They DID definitely know it belonged to a SHIELD agent.  The stupid logo isn't even hidden.

The watch makes totally no sense for a Spy, so we just have to shrug and not think too hard.

As idiotic as it is, it does give credence to the idea that Laura actually IS Bobbi Morse rather than another Agent 19.  Why?  Because as idiotic as it existing is, if they somehow think DNA can be lifted off it, then in theory they probably believe they can inevitably link Bobbi Morse to whatever her new identity is (she'd have both a new name plus almost defintely a new face).  Not that the chances of finding a random person's DNA is very high, but its the only logic I can think of here.  Although, again, if it was uncovered in the rubble of Avengers HQ, they have the advantage of knowing its linked somehow to an Avenger.

It IS kind of related stupidity to someone finding the Ronin stuff among the Avengers stuff and by process of deduction knowing it really only could belong to an Avenger, one who wasn't blipped, and who was a hand to hand and weapons expert.   Natasha would probably be a big suspect and possibly even Cap.  But also Clint. 

And to hide Bobbi a new agent picks up the name as well as Mockingbird. As is being teased in the 007 franchise. There very well be as many Mockingbirds as Leviathan had Black Widows or Nova versus the Nova Corps in the Guardians of the Galaxy

As for spy stuff and branding their gear S.H.I.E.L.D. seems to have had undercover operatives as just a small slice of their organization

[Guest]

6 hours ago, Sakura12 said:

Is Kingpin dead? I mean they did bring in Evan Peter's as a got you role. But then something else happened on another property and that makes me think we haven't seen the last of him. He is superhuman.

I feel like the Echo series guarantees that Kingpin is not dead. 

6 hours ago, Zonk said:

But Agent 19 was already a prominent character in Agents of SHIELD. I knew the Netflix shows weren't strictly canon anymore, but Agents was usually regarded as still being in the MCU. So that's interesting...

At this point canon isn’t even one universe but multiple universes. So it’s possible for AoS to be canon and not happen within the timeline of the movies. My guess is that they will pick and choose from AoS and the Netflix shows as it is suits what they want to do. 

[Chicago Redshirt]

3 hours ago, SnarkShark said:

It IS kind of related stupidity to someone finding the Ronin stuff among the Avengers stuff and by process of deduction knowing it really only could belong to an Avenger, one who wasn't blipped, and who was a hand to hand and weapons expert.   Natasha would probably be a big suspect and possibly even Cap.  But also Clint.

We know that Hawkeye is Ronin, so it is easy for us to see the line of reasoning that Ronin's suit and sword being in the wreckage of the Avengers' compound means that he was an alternate identity for an Avenger. 

But there are also a couple other lines of reasoning. 

Ronin's stuff could have been at the Avengers compound as belonging to a new person who was affiliated with the Avengers in some way. Just as Tony designed the Iron Spider suit for Spidey, for example, he or some other Avenger could have designed Ronin's gear even if Ronin was not officially on the team.

Or the Avengers could have been keeping his suit as a trophy of a battle with him or for study. We know from Spidey: Homecoming that they have a boatload of stuff in storage. 

[swanpride]

9 hours ago, Sakura12 said:

But we have none whatsoever with the AoS characters in the MCU.

Not quite. The actor of Jarvis in Endgame is the same one who was cast for Agent Carter (which basically acknowledges Agent Carter), and Agent Carter and AoS are closely connected. 

[arc]

5 hours ago, SnarkShark said:

It sounds like both the Black Widow movie and Hawkeye show teams were mutually made aware that the show had permission to use Yelena this way, but miscommunicated on how she gets involved.

Maybe if it were just a minor thing, but using Julia Louis-Dreyfus for it strongly suggests the execs at Marvel who knew what they wanted out of Hawkeye would know what to ask for that Black Widow scene. Both because of her fame level and because threading Val into both Black Widow and FATWS as (seemingly) a dark mirror of Nick Fury isn’t a place to let the Black Widow team just improvise.

[ProudMary]

58 minutes ago, swanpride said:

Not quite. The actor of Jarvis in Endgame is the same one who was cast for Agent Carter (which basically acknowledges Agent Carter), and Agent Carter and AoS are closely connected. 

Yes, and Hayley Atwell's Agent Carter appeared in a couple of AOS episodes. Not to mention that Dominic Cooper, who played Howard Stark in Captain America: The First Avenger, was a semi-regular in Agent Carter.

[Guest]

5 hours ago, SnarkShark said:

I read that the writers didn't know about that post credit scene in Black Widow. 

The head writer for Hawkeye said that he knew about the end credit scene but the rest of the writers didn’t. This show wasn’t completely in the dark. 

5 hours ago, SnarkShark said:

It sounds like both the Black Widow movie and Hawkeye show teams were mutually made aware that the show had permission to use Yelena this way, but miscommunicated on how she gets involved.

The writer for Black Widow has said that he was told to write a scene where Val sends Yelena after Clint but he didn’t know way. The end-credit scene is exactly what Marvel wanted and not a result of miscommunication. 

[paigow]

AoS could not recast characters that had appeared in MCU entries without alienating viewers.

But the MCU was not facing that requirement... Endgame!Jarvis is an anomaly

[cambridgeguy]

10 hours ago, anna0852 said:

I think Yelena needs to spend some time with Bruce and Carol as well. Especially Carol. She was working with Nat during the Snap years.

Aside from them both being blonde what makes Carol so special?  Rocket, Nebula, Rhodes, and Okoye also worked with her during that time, and unlike Carol the latter two weren't flying around the galaxy with only sporadic contact.  Sam was on the run with her and Steve, and Nick Fury knew her prior to the Avengers. 

[swanpride]

Well, for starters, Carol knows Monica, and Monica and Yelena have a lot in common regarding the snap. Carol can provide Yelena the perspective of someone who "let someone down". 

Plus, we need more members for the Sex and the City fantasy....

[anna0852]

1 hour ago, cambridgeguy said:

Aside from them both being blonde what makes Carol so special?  Rocket, Nebula, Rhodes, and Okoye also worked with her during that time, and unlike Carol the latter two weren't flying around the galaxy with only sporadic contact.  Sam was on the run with her and Steve, and Nick Fury knew her prior to the Avengers. 

The fact I was writing that post quickly and didn't have time list every possible person that been around Natasha and still alive? 

[tv echo]

I just wanted to add...

I agree that Clint was holding back throughout his fight with Yelena because he didn't want to kill Natasha's sister. I also think that Yelena was partly holding back as well because she was really looking for answers and a way to vent her feelings of guilt (for not being there to save her sister), grief and anger (over her sister's death), and maybe even some resentment (because Clint got to spend more time with her sister).

When Yelena heard the special whistle, for a split second I thought that Natasha (Scarlett Johansson) would make a surprise cameo appearance. Like, maybe she was alive again after Steve returned the Soul Stone to Vormir. But having it be Clint worked better for this series. (It was certainly a better kill stopper than finding out that your mothers have the same name! ;) )

FYI (as I posted in the Media thread): There was a failed attempt to launch a Captain America Broadway musical in the mid-1980s (you can read about it here).

Yelena's fabulous green coat:

(source)

Edited December 23, 2021 by tv echo

[Kate47]

The Ronin suit looked terrible in anything but super dark lighting, so I was very glad to see it lit on fire at the end of the episode. Alternately, Yelena's hairstyle was all kinds of fire and I was very sad we didn't get to see it in better lighting. 

Edited December 23, 2021 by Kate47
Wordplay

[paigow]

Will the burnt Ronin suit have a higher NFT value?

[readster]

23 hours ago, paigow said:

The Tracksuits could have easily been henchmen for Joker / Riddler circa Adam West.

In the comics, that's what Matt Fraction who wrote series much of the TV show is based on went with. Then in the comics went from campy to down right dark where they ambush Clint and his brother, Barney, and beat them senseless to the point Barney was in a wheel chair and Clint had to go back to wearing hearing aids as he received sever head trauma from the beatdown. Also, don't get me started on them hurting the dog too. 

[Eliza422]

My thoughts:

 

1. Of course Kingpin isn't dead. Cardinal rule of visual media - if you don't see the body, they're still alive.

2. All it would have taken was the Bros shooting some guns during the ice fight for them to win. Sure they might have hit their own men, but they don't seem the type to care about that. Blanket the Hawkeyes with bullets, done.

3. The whole watch thing is weird. Having only seen Bobbi Morse in AoS, no way would she become a farmland housewife! I loved the AoS character and I can't abide the idea that she would do that. If I must I can live with Mockingbird/19 being a code name passed on and LB was some other person. I disliked Laura Barton from the first time I saw her in AoU and nothing about this show made me like her any better.

4. If Maya is supposed to be a character with her own show, I can't imagine that I would watch it. I totally don't like mob stories, regular criminal stories - I have no idea what a show with her would be like. As she was portrayed in this show, blech, no thanks.

5. Another side note, I wish there had been more Clint / Natasha through the movies. I know there were small hints, but if I only knew the movies I don't know that I would think they were such soulmates. Sure there were some hints, but she spent so much time with Cap in the movies I would think they would be the soulmate BFFs.

Edited December 23, 2021 by Eliza422

[Llywela]

1 minute ago, Eliza422 said:

3. The whole watch thing is weird. Having only seen Bobbi Morse in AoS, no way would she become a farmland housewife!

Absolutely nothing implies that she has. Laura is a different character and is a good decade older than Bobbi from AoS. Laura and Clint's oldest child would be over 20 if he hadn't been blipped for 5 years, which means Laura probably retired that long ago, before Bobbi would have been active. The codename being passed on is the simplest way to reconcile the two, no head-scratching required.

[Ilovepie]

Favorite D+ MCU show so far!

Things I loved:

Kate and Yelena's fight through the office complex. Awesome and humorous.

Clint getting stuck in the tree and the owl. Then the shrinking arrow with the van and the owl carrying the small van off. Perfection.

The Larpers. I love them and their costumes! I also loved when Clint admitted that they made him a pretty dope one too.

Jack. He was a delight fighting with the his sword. And his pissy exchange with the kid was hilarious: "Remember when you peed your pants in the Hamptons?"

The millions of track suits pouring into Rockefeller Plaza and every trick arrow taking them down. So much fun!

So glad Kate (and the dog) went home with him. I don't know why but I think setting this at Christmas made it better somehow.....

The end credit scene to end all credits! Pretty sure people would go see Rogers the Musical if they ever decide to do it - "I can do this all daaaaayyyy!!!"

I am just going to ignore the fact that there was zero cops on the scene in FREAKING ROCKEFELLER PLAZA ON CHRISTMAS EVE for a giant mob brawl! Also, pretty sure you would have to answer some questions about destroying the tree, and I also don't think that they would have been able to evacuate that skating rink of all civilians on Christmas Eve, but whatever, it was still awesome.

[swanpride]

Shoot out for the poor guy who had to work at Christmas and THAN had to deal with two ladies fighting their way through his cubicle....

[arc]

44 minutes ago, swanpride said:

Shoot out for the poor guy who had to work at Christmas and THAN had to deal with two ladies fighting their way through his cubicle....

To be fair, it was before Christmas Day, partly because even Eleanor Bishop isn’t gonna throw a Christmas party on the day itself and expect people to come, and partly because a day or two after the big fight, Clint and Kate show up at the Barton farmstead on Christmas Day.

[paigow]

Gary the Catering Manager must have lost most of his staff after the auction if the LARPers can walk in and get hired on Christmas Eve

[Guest]

10 hours ago, paigow said:

AoS could not recast characters that had appeared in MCU entries without alienating viewers.

But the MCU was not facing that requirement... Endgame!Jarvis is an anomaly

I really don’t understand why people are determined to exclude or include AoS as though it is all or nothing. Endgame Jarvis isn’t an anomaly. It was a clear choice to use an Agent Carter character. There is no reason for Marvel to eliminate AoS, Agent Carter or the Netflix shows from canon when all they have to do is say that it exist in a different universe. Loki made it so everything is canon. Why would Marvel piss of segments of the fanbase just to exclude one show when they have so much flexibility? 

47 minutes ago, arc said:

To be fair, it was before Christmas Day, partly because even Eleanor Bishop isn’t gonna throw a Christmas party on the day itself and expect people to come, and partly because a day or two after the big fight, Clint and Kate show up at the Barton farmstead on Christmas Day.

At some point they said that it was Christmas Eve. 

[Ottis]

21 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

That Clint can make his own trick arrows doesn't mean that he doesn't also buy them made to spec. He might typically buy them to spec but didn't have the time to wait for Stark or Pym or whoever to accept and make his order. I would imagine the fact that parts were branded "Stark" probably meant that he did have Stark Industries construct some of the arrowheads or other components and he just put the finishing touches on himself.

That is more fan wanking that I am capable of! And the bit about Stark and Pym was accounted for in my comment. If you figure he uses what, 20 arrows? More? In an engagement, and he has to very carefully design and assemble them (maybe there is a second meaning to, "Avengers Assemble!" as they all take their spots on the arrow assembly benches), I struggle with him having all the arrow parts and tools lined up at home, spending a few hours each day making arrows. Doesn't seem like Avenger work, IMO. 

Also, given how complex some of those arrows are, he practically has to be an engineer to assemble them correctly. 

Far, far better if they arrived made-to-order, every week. That would have been a fun part of Hawkeye, having him have to be in place for his weekly arrow delivery, delayed by the holidays and supply chain issues, and waylaid by the track suits. Maybe his arrow shipment gets switched with that of a regular kids, who is surprised when his home target blows up. Way more fun that watching Clint and Kate use tools to build stuff.

21 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Particularly in his Ronin days, he couldn't necessarily have gotten anyone to deliver exactly what he wanted when he wanted it.

I think in his Ronin days, his arrows were pretty much about killing. Not a lot of call for bouncy ball arrows during that phase.

[Ottis]

5 minutes ago, Dani said:

I really don’t understand why people are determined to exclude or include AoS as though it is all or nothing. Endgame Jarvis isn’t an anomaly. It was a clear choice to use an Agent Carter character. There is no reason for Marvel to eliminate AoS, Agent Carter or the Netflix shows from canon when all they have to do is say that it exist in a different universe.

I get that it works for your point. I want to add a completely separate point that I hate the multiverse concept. It's a way for Marvel to do pretty much anything, and then use "multiverse!" to undo it. The net impact on viewers is that nothing really matters in Marvel movies now, because anyone who died can come back, any deed can be undone, any emotional impact can be reversed. Ugh.

[Kel Varnsen]

The only thing missing with the end credits scene was a shot of Yelena in the audience with her eyes rolled as far as humanly possible.

Also speaking of Yelena when the coat check guy asked for her jacket I was hoping she would say how he can't have it because it is way too cool to give to him.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

17 minutes ago, Ottis said:

The net impact on viewers is that nothing really matters in Marvel movies now, because anyone who died can come back, any deed can be undone, any emotional impact can be reversed. Ugh.

Except not really, and I'm genuinely curious as to how that's your takeaway. Tony's dead. Natasha's dead. Wanda cracked up and we don't know where she is now. Carol Danvers and Monica Rambeau had some kind of falling out, to the point that Monica doesn't even want to talk about her (former?) hero. Sylvie killed Kang and we haven't seen the fallout from that yet. Hell, Nat's death is one of the cornerstones here, since Clint still mourns for her even if he's come to terms with it, and thematically the only reason Yelena didn't kill him is because she got some kind of catharsis in hearing that her sister loved her and told Barton all about her.

If you're talking about consequences, the only one's who's really skated is Steve Rogers, who gets a musical about him despite being the one to screw the timeline for his own selfish purposes, and I don't care. Like, literally the only takeaway there is that he deserves to be happy but somebody like Wanda doesn't. Don't even get me started on that.

[Guest]

33 minutes ago, Ottis said:

I get that it works for your point. I want to add a completely separate point that I hate the multiverse concept. It's a way for Marvel to do pretty much anything, and then use "multiverse!" to undo it. 

Of course, everyone gets to choose what the prefer but the reality is that Marvel is leaning into the multiverse right now. 

33 minutes ago, Ottis said:

The net impact on viewers is that nothing really matters in Marvel movies now, because anyone who died can come back, any deed can be undone, any emotional impact can be reversed. Ugh.

Truthfully, I think the majority of viewers want it that way. The general audience wants wish fulfillment. They want Iron Man back or for him to replaced. Ultimately, it’s up to Marvel to find a balance and still make good shows and movies with stakes while expanding the cinematic world. So far, I think they are doing that but, of course, everyone is entitled to their own preferences. The characters and situations matter to me. Saying or seeing there is another version where things work out differently does erase the emotional impact. 

Edited December 23, 2021 by Guest

[Morrigan2575]

47 minutes ago, Kel Varnsen said:

The only thing missing with the end credits scene was a shot of Yelena in the audience with her eyes rolled as far as humanly possible.

I kept waiting for it, kinda fully expected it.

[Chicago Redshirt]

43 minutes ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

Except not really, and I'm genuinely curious as to how that's your takeaway. Tony's dead. Natasha's dead. Wanda cracked up and we don't know where she is now. Carol Danvers and Monica Rambeau had some kind of falling out, to the point that Monica doesn't even want to talk about her (former?) hero. Sylvie killed Kang and we haven't seen the fallout from that yet. Hell, Nat's death is one of the cornerstones here, since Clint still mourns for her even if he's come to terms with it, and thematically the only reason Yelena didn't kill him is because she got some kind of catharsis in hearing that her sister loved her and told Barton all about her.

If you're talking about consequences, the only one's who's really skated is Steve Rogers, who gets a musical about him despite being the one to screw the timeline for his own selfish purposes, and I don't care. Like, literally the only takeaway there is that he deserves to be happy but somebody like Wanda doesn't. Don't even get me started on that.

Between time travel and multiversal variants, though, any of those consequences can be undone or at least mitigated. The Tony Stark of Earth-674 can show up at any time on MCU Earth. Someone can pull a Natasha from 2018 (or whenever) into the present of 2024. A spell can be cast to bring a Cap who looks nothing like the Steve Rogers we have known to the MCU present. The Watcher or technology or whatever can pull whatever character into whatever universe. 

Edited December 23, 2021 by Chicago Redshirt

[WildPlum]

If you read Marvel comics, then you know that Marvel does not care about continuity between comic titles (or even within them sometimes) OR bringing characters back from the dead. They do it all the time. Hawkeye has "died" I think twice now. Maybe 3 times. I wouldn't expect the Marvel Movieverse to be all that different. If someone somewhere decides Steve Rogers needs to come back for the next movie, he will, with the briefest of nods as to why he's not dead.

"Canon" in the comics is whatever the writer for this run wants it to be.

[Guest]

10 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Between time travel and multiversal variants, though, any of those consequences can be undone or at least mitigated. The Tony Stark of Earth-674 can show up at any time on MCU Earth. Someone can pull a Natasha from 2018 (or whenever) into the present of 2024. A spell can be cast to bring a Cap who looks nothing like the Steve Rogers we have known to the MCU present. The Watcher or technology or whatever can pull whatever character into whatever universe. 

That doesn’t have to undo or mitigate the consequences if it is well written. The Tony Stark from Earth-674 isn’t the same character and his existence doesn’t erase the Tony Stark we know story away. The Gamora we know is dead and the one in Guardians 3 should be treated as a different character. If she isn’t that means that writers did a bad job. 

White Vision exists but he wasn’t treated as Wanda’s Vision and they didn’t diminish the tragedy of Wanda and Vision by introducing him. 

Edited December 24, 2021 by Guest

[MadyGirl1987]

That was a satisfying ending! I would love to see a second season. Clint and Kate have great chemistry and work well together as partners.

I really liked the interaction between Clint and Yelena. I really like the point that Natasha made a choice and that they wouldn't have been able to change her choice. I get the issue around fridging female characters, but I never considered Natasha’s death fridging BECAUSE she made a choice and I feel calling it that takes away the impact and agency behind her sacrifice.

As a Broadway fan, that end credits scene was amazing to me. Especially as someone who was a big RENT fan back in college, having Adam Pascal, the original Roger, made it better.

[arc]

23 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Assuming we're to imply that he generally makes his own arrows, I don't think there's anything ridiculous about him wanting to be as independent as possible. Particularly in his Ronin days, he couldn't necessarily have gotten anyone to deliver exactly what he wanted when he wanted it.

I'd assume he primarily stuck with the sword while dressed as Ronin. If he had used arrows, esp trick arrows, he might as well have just gone out in his Hawkeye costume or literally signed the kills "Clint Was Here".

[Chicago Redshirt]

I didn't mean to suggest that Ronin also used trick arrows. I meant to say that it is likely that when he was Ronin, Clint would want to work independently of any major suppliers like Stark, Pym, SHIELD, etc. who he worked with in the past for whatever gear he used. (I assume that in addition to the sword, he probably would have used some sort of ranged weapon, but maybe not.) It would not be surprising to me that he would carry on with supplying his own weapons after he stopped being Ronin. 

Hawkeye didn't really use very much in the way of trick arrows before this series, to the best of my recollection. He fired the explosive arrow at Loki in Avengers, and I'm blanking on any others off the top of my head. 

Edited December 23, 2021 by Chicago Redshirt

[calliope1975]

I'll be a contrarian and say I think Yelena would really get into the musical. Souvenirs and all. And then she'd be humming it to herself as she stabbed someone later. 

[Ottis]

2 hours ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

Except not really, and I'm genuinely curious as to how that's your takeaway. Tony's dead. Natasha's dead. Wanda cracked up and we don't know where she is now. Carol Danvers and Monica Rambeau had some kind of falling out, to the point that Monica doesn't even want to talk about her (former?) hero. Sylvie killed Kang and we haven't seen the fallout from that yet. Hell, Nat's death is one of the cornerstones here, since Clint still mourns for her even if he's come to terms with it, and thematically the only reason Yelena didn't kill him is because she got some kind of catharsis in hearing that her sister loved her and told Barton all about her.

Tony is dead ... for now. Nat's dead ... for now. Etc., etc. If Robert Downey Jr. were 15 years younger, I would put $100 in a neutral party's hand right now and bet you that Ironman played by Tony Stark/Downey Jr. would return within 5 years. *If* those characters stay dead, it will be because the actors age out or want out, not because Marvel didn't want them back, if they could.

The multiverse gives Marvel that power., with virtually no effort. It's one thing to say Steve Roger's legend is he was frozen for decades and then thawed to be a contemporary hero. It's another to kill him today, via villain, and then have him pop up again later because - multiverse!

The endgame just happened. Then multiverse was introduced. Give it some time. I fully expect to see Nat again. And when it happens, it will make Clint's mourning irrelevant, and cheapen the entre storyline. That's what the multiverse does.

 

 

Edited December 24, 2021 by Ottis

[paigow]

17 minutes ago, Ottis said:

The endgame just happened. Then multiverse was introduced. Give it some time. I fully expect to see Nat again. And when it happens, it will make Clint's mourning irrelevant, and cheapen the entre storyline. That's what the multiverse does.

Gamora NNN bailed because she had never met any Quill variant. Similarly, Natasha NNN might have never met a Barton variant or maybe even killed him...

Edited December 24, 2021 by paigow

[norcalgal]

On 12/22/2021 at 10:28 AM, Minneapple said:

That finale was great and Hawkeye is officially my favorite of the Disney+ shows. They managed to strike just the right balance between cheesy comedy, action, emotional scenes (Kate and her mom, Yelena and Clint). And I loved the Tracksuits and the LARPers. Were they over the top? Sure, but they were also humanized, and it was great that the LARPers became an actual part of the story rather than just being a running nerd joke or a throwaway bit.

I may have awwed a bit when Clint brought Kate and Lucky home for Christmas. Loved that Laura gave her a hug right away and welcomed her to the family. It would be great to see Laura in future projects as the show implied her to be a SHIELD agent (Agent 19, I guess). That's the kind of open-ended thread I can get behind.

This show was notably a more heartfelt eulogy for Natasha than the Black Widow movie was.

Except for the bolded above, ITA with everything is in this post. I really enjoyed this show a lot more than I expected to, whereas I was disappointed (and at times bored) with Loki.

On 12/22/2021 at 11:23 AM, swanpride said:

Regarding references (in this case a missed one), am I the only one who remembered the movie when "Ladyhawk" was posed as a possible name? 

This movie was the only time I ever viewed Rutger Hauer as a romantic lead.  If Kate does takes the nom de plume "Ladyhawk" I hope Kate and Michelle Pfeiffer's character meet up as some point!

On 12/22/2021 at 2:15 PM, Sakura12 said:

This was the show I was least sure about or interested in the first round of D+ shows and it ended up being my favorite. I mean we got more Yelena and Kingpin. 

The bolded is how I felt about Hawkeye, and it ended up being my second fave D+ show. Wandavision is still # 1 in my heart mostly because I like shows where the main character(s) have superpowers, and when Wanda thanks the boys for allowing her to be their mom (many tissues were used).

[chitowngirl]

1 hour ago, calliope1975 said:

I'll be a contrarian and say I think Yelena would really get into the musical. Souvenirs and all. And then she'd be humming it to herself as she stabbed someone later. 

I was hoping we’d see her in in the audience 

[arc]

3 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

He fired the explosive arrow at Loki in Avengers, and I'm blanking on any others off the top of my head. 

He used a grappling hook arrow to escape the rooftop in Avengers, also referenced in ep 1 of this series and then visually referenced when he used it again in ep 3.

Hey, in the big fight at street level, how is Jack stopping those track suit guys? He does one slash per bad guy and they go down and stay down. Is he killing them? I guess a de facto PG rating means they didn't want to show blood, but still.

[Raja]

5 hours ago, Dani said:

I really don’t understand why people are determined to exclude or include AoS as though it is all or nothing. Endgame Jarvis isn’t an anomaly. It was a clear choice to use an Agent Carter character. There is no reason for Marvel to eliminate AoS, Agent Carter or the Netflix shows from canon when all they have to do is say that it exist in a different universe. Loki made it so everything is canon. Why would Marvel piss of segments of the fanbase just to exclude one show when they have so much flexibility? 

 

The debate however predates the multiverse, variants and time travel done by both the Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. and The Avengers. But then I think canon only really was for the Infinity Saga now that the MCU has expanded to MCMultiverse

I don't think it is because many think they will get new versions of Graviton, Robbie Reyes, Quake. Maybe another LMD origin is hoped for. But it is to focus or expand the total debate they don't want to feel compelled to watch AoS to get into debates over say how the Avengers found the last Hydra stronghold in Sokovia or feel left out if they pass and others still reference Agent Coulson and crew. Or watch The Defenders and Iron Fist versus The Hand to link the full Daredevil story for Matt Murdock's further appearances.

Of course the Kingpin of Hawkeye and probably Echo later may just be a variant from the ones seen on Netflix Daredevil seasons 1-3. 

[Fool to cry]

 

 

 

 

[Kel Varnsen]

13 hours ago, Raja said:

Of course the Kingpin of Hawkeye and probably Echo later may just be a variant from the ones seen on Netflix Daredevil seasons 1-3. 

I hope he is the same guy since that is exactly the kind of thing that would happen in a comic book. Where a villain like Kingpin who was regularly in Daredevil would sometimes show up in say Spider man. He would be the same character acting generally the same way but doing different things with different people. And nothing that happened in Spiderman would contradict anything that happened in Daredevil. And nothing from DD is mentioned in Spiderman. That is basically what happened here.

I also really liked the Yelena/Kate fight. Since it really seemed like Kate was giving everything she had, but Yelena was kind of toying with her because all she wanted to do was get her out of the way but not kill her.

 

Edited December 24, 2021 by Kel Varnsen

[tv echo]

In this recent CinemaBlend article, Vincent D’Onofrio confirmed that Hawkeye's Kingpin and Daredevil's Kingpin are the "same character." He added: "It was always established to me that it's after the Blip and that he has lost the power that he had in Daredevil, and he wants it back. … In Hawkeye, he considers that he's lost a bit of the control of his city, and he wants his city back."

You can read more comments by D'Onofrio about Kingpin in Hawkeye and Daredevil in multiple media interviews in the Media thread here.

ETA: FYI...
'Hawkeye’: Episode 6 Rundown, Bro
BY RACHEL PAIGE    December 22, 2021
https://www.marvel.com/articles/tv-shows/hawkeye-episode-6-recap

Edited December 24, 2021 by tv echo

[Morrigan2575]

Huh. I just can't see them in the same light. I'm also confused. Kingpin didn't get blipped since he's responsible for setting Ronin on Maya's dad. How did he lose power during the Blip? Would make more sense if he was even more powerful. Unless, he means he solidified power during the blip and that's now threatened because the Avengers undid the Blip?

[Kel Varnsen]

39 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

Huh. I just can't see them in the same light. I'm also confused. Kingpin didn't get blipped since he's responsible for setting Ronin on Maya's dad. How did he lose power during the Blip? Would make more sense if he was even more powerful. Unless, he means he solidified power during the blip and that's now threatened because the Avengers undid the Blip?

Depending on who else got blipped he could have lost a lot of power. Like if a bunch of his top enforcers were gone or a lot of the people who pay him he would have lost a lot. Plus Ronin wiped out Maya's dad and probably a lot of other Kingpin associates. And you would have to figure that Ronin visited NYC long before he went to Mexico or Japan.

[Morrigan2575]

6 minutes ago, Kel Varnsen said:

Depending on who else got blipped he could have lost a lot of power. Like if a bunch of his top enforcers were gone or a lot of the people who pay him he would have lost a lot. Plus Ronin wiped out Maya's dad and probably a lot of other Kingpin associates. And you would have to figure that Ronin visited NYC long before he went to Mexico or Japan.

Interesting, didn't think of that