S03.E09: All the Bells Say

[Jordan Baker]

Interview with Matthew Macfayden about last night's episode:

Matthew Macfayden on Tom, the finale, etc.

Also, how was he not nominated for a Golden Globe? 

[poeticlicensed]

34 minutes ago, Lassus said:

I mean, this IS somewhat unfair.  "Unhappy" is not "irretrievably horrified by" (certainly not at that point in the tale) and many people way more miserably than that have wanted to have children with no status to gain at all.  He might actually want a child for the same familial and emotional reasons millions of other people want children.

I would agree with you except that Tom's wanting a baby seemed to start when he knew he was going to prison. I dont know much about prison mindset but I do know that in the military it us not uncommon for men to want to impregnate their SO as a mechanism to keep them faithful. It works the other way to where women will want to get pregnant and they think their  SO who is  deploying won't cheat if theres a baby on the way.. Why else would Tom want Shiv to get pregnant when he's gonna be away? I dont remember him mentioning kids before, although I'm not sure and its really hard to tell how much time elapsed during and between seasons, so they may still be relative newlyweds. He always seemed to relish their power couple no kids persona up til he was headed to the slammer

Edited December 13, 2021 by poeticlicensed

[tennisgurl]

So that all just happened, so many jaw droppers and so many great performances. Kendall just starring into the dirt crying while Roman and Shiv awkwardly tried to be comforting was just all so well acted, it really is tragic how their various neurosis and selfishness tends to tear them apart so much, I really do think the Roy siblings love each other in their own way. So much of what they do, including their desperation to stay in the business, is based less on money and more on earning their fathers love, which he is never going to give them. It really is to the credit of the actors and writers that they can still make me feel sorry for these terrible people who are some of the most privilaged people on the planet, but they're just so damn miserable and starved for attention. Despite what a dick Roman has been for the back half of the season, damn it if Kieran Culkin didn't still make my heart hurt when Logan scoffed at the idea of Roman coming to him with "love" as the reason why he shouldn't cut him out. Its really probably for the best that the Roy siblings have to try and do something that wont involve hiding behind their dad, but as much as Logan is trying to sell this as tough love or a learning opportunity, its clearly just a petty power game. Their mom casually screwing them over was just icing on the miserable cake. 

Oh Tom. I suspected that something like this would happen after Shiv told him she didn't love him, you cant get kicking a dog and then act surprised when it actually bites back. 

I actually said "oh shit" when Kendall called himself the oldest son and then the camera zoomed in on Connor. Its been a really interesting season for him, he's just as much of a delusional weirdo as ever but he can actually be pretty perceptive at times, his family really shouldn't underestimate him so much.

"If she married Roman, he would probably invade France."

[HymanKaplan]

Why did Tom bring Greg with him?  Because Tom didn't warn Logan. He had Greg do it. That's all he needed him for. That takes care of the Shiv problem.

Roman, above all, deserves what he's getting. Because if he hadn't let Logan browbeat him in the board meeting (season 1) "Dad" would have been out already. 

Does Con have a board seat?  What about Logan's wife? I could see her screwing him over. 

 

[MizLottie]

1 hour ago, Jordan Baker said:

Did anyone guess, from the Tom/Greg scene, what Tom was about to do/had done?

I did until I got distracted by Kendall admitting to his sibs about the waiter drowning and the Logan/Roman drama. Tom wasn't specific about whom they would be helping, he was still hurt by Shiv's treatment, Logan had his back, and he already told Kendall Logan doesn't fuck up.  It was great to see Shiv taste some of her own medicine.

[Schweedie]

7 hours ago, CouchTater said:

Can anyone tell me what other prospects Willa may have? He obviously annoys her at times, but he seems mostly benign and loving.  In her shoes, I'd absolutely marry Connor!  But she clearly has genuine concerns.  I'd love to know a little more about her.

I mean, part of it could be that she doesn't want to officially, legally, be a part of that mess of a family, heh. Although she already has to deal with them anyway, so there's that. I did think she looked genuinely happy after she finally said yes (or, well, 'fuck it'), though.

[sistermagpie]

Just now, Schweedie said:

I mean, part of it could be that she doesn't want to officially, legally, be a part of that mess of a family, heh. Although she already has to deal with them anyway, so there's that. I did think she looked genuinely happy after she finally said yes (or, well, 'fuck it'), though.

I assume it's because while she's happy to be working as a sex worker now, she did always think she might fall in love and be married for real. Marrying Connor is deciding to marry for money, which is a different decision than she's made before. So "fuck it" was giving up, potentially, a chance for something she considered a real relationship and marriage.

[Alexander Pope]

 

 

Was anyone else struck by the particularly repellent cruelty of Logan mimicking Shiv during the big confontation at the end?  So childish, so demeaning to both of them, and something he only does with her.  It's an especially sexist form of contempt and he has done it before.

Edited December 13, 2021 by Alexander Pope

[BlackberryJam]

2 hours ago, peachmangosteen said:

When I realized Tom sold the sibs out, I legit gasped lol. Then I thought good for him. Then I was like I hope the sibs murder him. This show, man!

 

Exactly! The show is about the fight, not the winner.

I spend a little too much time in the royals thread, so let’s talk Luxembourg. It is an existing monarchy, currently headed by Grand Duke Henri, who is married to Maria-Teresa. (Word has she’s a bit of a nightmare, terrorizing the staff and throwing glassware, but her mother in law was a total bitch.) Anyway, Henri and MT’s oldest is Hereditary Grand Duke Guillaume who is married to Stephanie. They have a one year old son, Prince Charles (or as I call him in the Royals Thread, the Superior Charles). Moving down the line, we get Henri’s second son, Felix, then Felix’s two kids, before we get to Henri’s daughter, Alexandra, then the youngest son, Sebastian. Bringing us to number 8, which is Henri’s brother, Prince Guillaume. Because of course these people keep recycling the same five names. He has three sons, then we get the next brother of Henri (now deceased) and his two sons. So heirs 7-13 are all male. 

I’d actually done a dive into the Luxies for the Royals thread.

Henri actually has a third son, Louis, but he’s been removed from the line of succession for generally fucking his way through Europe at age 19, impregnating and then marrying someone of the wrong religion or something, that sort of stuff. He has two sons, also out of the line of succession.

So, this contessa, or whatever the fuck she is, is just totally feeding Greg a line of bullshit and he’s buying it. Because he’s a social climbing idiot. They absolutely could have said she was a Hungarian or German princess because there are scads of those knocking about Europe to make it plausible, but no, the point is Greg is a fucking idiot. I was seriously laughing so hard at that. The Contessa is just a less honest Willa. 

Lackey Slack. I loved that. 

I also loved that horrible broken, douchenozzle Kendall is the only one of them who actually has a clue about how a buyout can or should work. Shiv and Roman just vomit buzzwords. Kendall actually put in some of the work, he’s just a shit decision maker.

If there is only one season left, Logan should die in episode 6 of 10, before the deal is done and the will should leave equal shares to the four Roy children as well as three heretofore unmentioned and unknown illegitimate children, fucking them all. 

 

 

Edited December 13, 2021 by BlackberryJam
Messed on Sebastian

[poeticlicensed]

2 minutes ago, BlackberryJam said:

So, this contessa, or whatever the fuck she is, is just totally feeding Greg a line of bullshit and he’s buying it. Because he’s a social climbing idiot. They absolutely could have said she was a Hungarian or German princess because there are scads of those knocking about Europe to make it plausible, but no, the point is Greg is a fucking idiot. I was seriously laughing so hard at that. The Contessa is just a less honest Willa.

Omg i would love it if a Roy, and Greg is Roy, albeit by extension, got taken in by a fake royal. With Caroline I think she knew she was getting a flim flam man with her new husband, but Greg is stupid enough to marry a fake princess or countess with no pre nup. 

[peachmangosteen]

4 minutes ago, BlackberryJam said:

If there is only one season left, Logan should die in episode 6 of 10, before the deal is done and the will should leave equal shares to the four Roy children as well as three heretofore unmentioned and unknown illegitimate children, fucking them all.

I like it.

And speaking of, I've been waiting for some previously unknown children to show up since I first started watching. It seems inevitable.

[Schweedie]

15 minutes ago, BlackberryJam said:

I also loved that horrible broken, douchenozzle Kendall is the only one of them who actually has a clue about how a buyout can or should work. Shiv and Roman just vomit buzzwords. Kendall actually put in some of the work, he’s just a shit decision maker.

When he was giving his spiel about how he had what he'd earned taken away from him, although he fucked up with the whole 'oldest son' thing, you can sort of see where he was coming from - messy though he is, he clearly put in a lot of work at Waystar throughout the years and he probably would've made sense as a successor.

[Avabelle]

Is Logan’s move actuslly legal? I don’t get how renegotiating a divorce term regarding his adult children from 30 odd years ago on the day that he could potentially be voted out of a huge decision would be valid?

[BlackberryJam]

8 minutes ago, Avabelle said:

Is Logan’s move actuslly legal? I don’t get how renegotiating a divorce term regarding his adult children from 30 odd years ago on the day that he could potentially be voted out of a huge decision would be valid?

When and how you can revise a decree depends on the jurisdiction in which it was filed, but generally you can revise it if the parties to the divorce (Caroline and Logan) agree and the court is willing to accept the new decree (some jurisdictions require you to reserve the right to modify.)

My understanding isn’t that the decree gave the children specific rights, but rather provided protection for Caroline saying that Logan couldn’t sell up (or voluntarily relinquish control of the company) without either her approval OR without a supermajority (66.7%) of the shareholders agreeing. 

Kendall’s point was that without the four children agreeing, Logan would not be able to reach a supermajority. 

Caroline agreed to revise the decree removing the prohibitions on Logan selling/voluntarily relinquishing control. 

The decree didn’t give specific rights to the children and the children weren’t parties to the divorce.

ETA: I suppose now the four kids could try to align with Stewy/Sandy so Logan could sell his shares, but SS with kids would still be 51%, but the show plays vague with the ownership percentages, and SS want Logan OUT, so they aren’t going to be interested. The better deal for the shareholders is the sale.

Edited December 13, 2021 by BlackberryJam

[Absurda]

1 hour ago, Schweedie said:

I mean, part of it could be that she doesn't want to officially, legally, be a part of that mess of a family, heh. Although she already has to deal with them anyway, so there's that. I did think she looked genuinely happy after she finally said yes (or, well, 'fuck it'), though.

Willa looked happy to Connor's face, but her expression changed really quickly when they were getting into the car and he couldn't see her.  She's not happy to be marrying him.  It almost seems like she said yes out of pity.  Connor was mid-pity party when she said fuck it.

[Kirsty]

I liked how transparent Logan's manipulation attempts were in that final scene. It was obvious to all that he was trying to split up the three kids. It's always worked in the past! And it just made him seem more villainous.

It's interesting that the big change in the season finale isn't Logan losing. That's never happened. Selling the company is new, and it's also another variety of Logan winning, which is old. The kids lose again, Kendall loses again, Shiv loses again, Roman loses again. That's the show, I suppose. It makes Logan seem very small and petty when I consider that he constantly wants to defeat his children to give himself a boost. None of the kids are allowed to leave his circle either, because then he wouldn't have anyone to play against or with. They're his favourite toys.

On a shallow note, how good does Skarsgard look, stretched out under the Tuscan sun? He's a knockout.

[Athena5217]

11 hours ago, pasdetrois said:

I am - ahem- curvy and would kill for SS' posterior. No shame in form-fitting.

But this dress seemed poor fit vs form-fitting because of the way it pulled at the hips and bust. Perhaps I've been watching too much Project Runway.

I appreciate the suggestion that the fit was intentional to reflect Shiv's harried state of mind and/or pregnancy.

I rewatched the episode today. When Shiv is giving the toast, there is a close-up shot of her midsection, and her stomach is not flat. It could be the normal bit of fat many of us have or it could be the beginning of a baby bump.

Let me be clear--I think Sarah Snook is beautiful and talented and doesn't need to lose an ounce of weight unless she wants to. I wish I looked as good as her. However, the dress was not a good fit and she didn't seem to be wearing Spanx, which would have made her stomach look much more flat. So there must have been a carefully thought out reason for her looking that way given the strange close-up. Likewise, I am confident the show's wardrobe people have a clothes steamer so the only reason for Roman's shirts to look so rumpled is that it is intended.

I looked this up because I love going down a rabbit hole on Wikipedia--the current 8th in line to the Luxembourger throne is Prince Guillaume, the uncle of the current Grand Duke. Greg said that Italian/Luxembourger woman was 8th in line so either he is wrong or there is a different line of succession in the Succession universe. I'm leaning towards Greg being wrong because he is Greg. Also, he said something to Tom about being potentially in line to the throne "twelve times removed" if he married that woman. That is just all kinds of wrong and nonsensical. I think everyone in Western Europe would have to die first. However, it is consistent with Greg's character that he would believe that.

Edited December 14, 2021 by Athena5217
Corrected typos

[Evie]

13 minutes ago, Absurda said:

Willa looked happy to Connor's face, but her expression changed really quickly when they were getting into the car and he couldn't see her.  She's not happy to be marrying him.  It almost seems like she said yes out of pity.  Connor was mid-pity party when she said fuck it.

In later scenes, you could see her in the background, drunk. I don't think she was celebrating lol. Then there was the crying at the wedding. She's definitely not happy to be marrying him.

[Blakeston]

This episode made it clear that Greg isn't just becoming more like Tom - he's straight-up become Tom. 

He barely knows a thing about the Contessa's personality. He just knows that she's rich and powerful, and he wants to marry into that.

And he's talking gleefully about selling his soul for money. This is reminiscent of Tom eating the ortolan in season 1 with his napkin of shame, reveling in how decadent and immoral his life as a wealthy person could be.

Throw in his willingness to sue Greenpeace, too. The Greg who was in any way innocent, and had qualms about working for ATN, is gone.

[Dminches]

20 hours ago, Crone said:

Oh I think Shiv knew that Tom played them. Her expression at the end- like she was broken but trying to keep her game face and calculating her next move.

I think she was trying to act like Tom didn’t really hurt her but she knows he did.  She has no other move.

 

[aghst]

Roman says this, in an attempt to console Kendall about the kid who died in England in season 1.

"I mean, who hasn't clipped the odd kid with a Porsche, am I right? I mean, it's like a rite of passage. I've killed a kid too, big deal."

 

Turns out some scion of one of the richest Brazilian families ran over some kid with an expensive sports car.  Family paid a lot of money not to have the son prosecuted.

[Dminches]

20 hours ago, whiporee said:

Caroline's husband wanted a title. Logan got it for him. 

I'm not sure Tom sold them out. I think Logan patted Tom's shoulder as a way of fucking Shiv, who now will always doubt. 

All Tom did was alert Logan to the fact that the 3 kids were coming for him.  Logan had already made a deal with Caroline.  Tom just gave Logan a heads up.  Tom is probably hoping that Logan put in a good word with Mattson so he can retain a top position at the company.

19 hours ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

I didn't either.  After Shiv called Tom to explain what the 3 siblings were going to do (Or did Tom call her?) Tom immediately called Logan and warned him.

Logan reacted by changing that post-divorce agreement with Caroline.  That gives the children no power in the business decisions as explained upthread.

I was so focused on Roman nearly crying that I didn't realize what Logan greeting Tom meant - but if you rewatch, you can see that Shiv 100% knows what happened.

My bet is that Logan had already changed the agreement with Caroline.  I don’t think he would leave that up to chance.  He knew that an attempted coup was always possible.

 

[lindakoy]

Loved the episode, and it was all very dramatic to have Tom betray Shiv, but would things have ended any different even if Logan hadn't known what the Kids were up to before they met with him?  He still could have negotiated with their Mom on the Divorce settlement to take away the "super majority" requirement after they confronted him about selling the company.

[xaxat]

Logan is a horrible human being, but in that final scene, I think he was right. His legacy media company is bleeding cash and being acquired by a rising stock like GoJo makes fiduciary sense. And Mattson, over all of the kids, is capable of making that happen.

Tom definitely tipped off Logan, but I think Logan already had a plan in place. We saw Marsha walking through his war room, and we know that the only time she can bear to be near him is when she is negotiating a new deal to benefit her. I'm sure he knew about the supermajority clause and had a plan (Caroline) to blunt the threat.

The weird thing about this dynamic is that all of the kids are legit billionaires through the family trust. It's not like they are being cut out of the will and will get nothing. Yet they thought they were smarter (more entitled?) than the man who made them billions.

Make your own pile!

 

[BlackberryJam]

The only risk to Logan not getting the supermajority he needed was if all three children aligned together against him. While Logan likely had thought about the divorce clause, I don’t think he thought the kids would unite against him. He’d done so damn much to isolate them and make them turn on each other. He needed the heads up that they coming for him. I’m certain Logan’s plan was put the deal in place, then tell both Shiv and Roman separately that they were going to get a place in the new company. (Mattson had already dangled that to Roman.) Then, once the deal was done, Logan would again pull the rug out from the kids. Or even better, he’d let Mattson do it. Kendall had already made clear he wanted cash and out. Kendall “fell off the floatie” when Logan refused. I’m sure Logan thought he could go back and tell Kendall the buyout was still an option and Ken would be fine with it. 

Other notes, the Monopoly game at the beginning with Shiv cheating and Tom trying to just give his properties to Shiv when he left. Perfection.

When Logan and Roman met with Mattson and after Logan rejected the deal, Mattson asks about the old deal having a new shape, then he purposefully gives a side look towards Roman, and Logan tells Roman to take off. On rewatch, it’s clear that Mattson is saying “Get rid of your son, then let’s talk.” Logan agrees.

Greg at the wedding sitting between fake contessa and Comfrey, playing both sides, it’s so Greg. 

So, when the three kids go to talk, it’s out by the trash bins, because they can’t find a private room. Shiv and Roman were just not equipped to deal with Kendall having feelings. Roman puts his hands on Kendall’s shoulders to comfort him, and then in after meeting with Logan, Kendall does the same to Logan.

I think the writers don’t give a damn about whether Shiv or Roman is older and they were thumbing their nose at the spec with that “big brother” comment. That scene in the SUV, the acting is brilliant. Kendall goes from total mess to pulling himself together, Shiv is playing a absolute terror under a mask of strength, Roman’s indecision moving towards uniting. It’s just great. 

So it seems to me they unite, then make their calls: Kendall verifying the divorce language, Shiv calling Tom, Roman talks to Connor. Tom talks to Greg, gets his allegiance, calls Logan and then hops in a car, speeding behind them. That gives Logan time to pull Caroline out of the reception and negotiate for at least an hour, maybe two before the kids arrive.

Logan’s real manipulation skill with his children is his ability to change gears. He wasn’t going to reveal the Caroline negotiation if he could get Roman or Shiv to join him. Logan is willing to do anything to win, but if he can divide and conquer the kids while doing it, he’s down with that. 

 

Edited December 14, 2021 by BlackberryJam
Typos galore.

[aghst]

54 minutes ago, xaxat said:

Logan is a horrible human being, but in that final scene, I think he was right. His legacy media company is bleeding cash and being acquired by a rising stock like GoJo makes fiduciary sense. And Mattson, over all of the kids, is capable of making that happen.

Tom definitely tipped off Logan, but I think Logan already had a plan in place. We saw Marsha walking through his war room, and we know that the only time she can bear to be near him is when she is negotiating a new deal to benefit her. I'm sure he knew about the supermajority clause and had a plan (Caroline) to blunt the threat.

The weird thing about this dynamic is that all of the kids are legit billionaires through the family trust. It's not like they are being cut out of the will and will get nothing. Yet they thought they were smarter (more entitled?) than the man who made them billions.

Make your own pile!

 

If he went to the kids and say we have to sell, make this deal, because Waystar is declining and make the case that this is the best deal they can get now, maybe the kids buy in, even if it means they're cut off from running a big corporation.

But he kept them out of the negotiations.  He pulled in Gerri, Frank, Karl and outside bankers but he did it in secrecy from the kids.

THAT is why they're peeved.

A couple of seasons ago they had a family meeting about whether they should sell to Sandy and Stewy.  I think Willa offered and opinion and someone mocked her, "oh good, Willa thinks we should ..."

I don't think the kids expressed previously they they must have a role in the company going forward.  It's more like Tom saying "what's there going to be for me?"

So Logan wasn't so much rejecting the kids from significant roles in the future so much as just not even listening to their input.  He was making the decision without them.

 

BTW, does this mean no more Stewy/Sandy/Sandi and we will have some Lukas in season 4?

[sistermagpie]

 

2 hours ago, Blakeston said:

This episode made it clear that Greg isn't just becoming more like Tom - he's straight-up become Tom. 

He barely knows a thing about the Contessa's personality. He just knows that she's rich and powerful, and he wants to marry into that.

 

 

2 hours ago, Athena5217 said:

I looked this up because I love going down a rabbit hole on Wikipedia--the current 8th in line to the Luxembourger throne is Prince Guillaume, the uncle of the current Grand Duke. Gregg said that Italian/Luxembourger woman was 8th in line so either he is wrong or there is a different line of succession in the Succession universe. I'm leaning towards Gregg being wrong because he is Gregg. Also, he said something to Tom about being potentially in line to the throne "twelve times removed" if he married that woman. That is just all kinds of wrong and nonsensical. I think everyone in Western Europe would have to die first. However, it is consistent with Gregg's character that he would believe that.

I didn't take any of the Greg stuff this seriously. He met a pretty girl at the wedding who's from a different world where she could be distantly related to royalty and he thinks that's weird and cool. What would she even be taking him for, after all? Greg's not rich by the standards of this wedding at all. He's even lost his inheritence from his grandfather. If he was actually trying to marry into royalty for money or a title or whatever, he wouldn't have had time to do much research yet. 

[BlackberryJam]

The contessa is just a social climber, or like Willa, is some variety of a sex worker. She doesn’t know that Greg has no money. She knows he’s the great nephew of Logan Roy, and that he rated (using the term of the night) enough to be invited to Caroline’s wedding.

Greg just isn’t bright enough to have googled her. Finding out the line of succession of any of the existing European monarchies takes about 2 minutes. Greg had enough time to be checking out the posts about hard Italian pillows on LackeySlack.

The storyline is to show that Greg is the new Tom.  

[Bluesky]

4 hours ago, Avabelle said:

Is Logan’s move actuslly legal? I don’t get how renegotiating a divorce term regarding his adult children from 30 odd years ago on the day that he could potentially be voted out of a huge decision would be valid?

Definitely not using real life legal situations on the show.   I’m sure there’s a statue of limitations somewhere.  And if that were somehow possibly they would have to file a motion with the court asking for the modification.  A judge would not ok it because it wouldn’t be in the best interest of the children.   But I don’t mind that so much is implausible.  More entertaining that way.  

[MizLottie]

3 hours ago, aghst said:

"I mean, who hasn't clipped the odd kid with a Porsche, am I right? I mean, it's like a rite of passage. I've killed a kid too, big deal."

Call me horrible but I found this to be the funniest line of the night.

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, BlackberryJam said:

The contessa is just a social climber, or like Willa, is some variety of a sex worker. She doesn’t know that Greg has no money. She knows he’s the great nephew of Logan Roy, and that he rated (using the term of the night) enough to be invited to Caroline’s wedding.

Greg just isn’t bright enough to have googled her. Finding out the line of succession of any of the existing European monarchies takes about 2 minutes. Greg had enough time to be checking out the posts about hard Italian pillows on LackeySlack.

The storyline is to show that Greg is the new Tom.  

I didn't get that from what was going on with Greg, exactly. Tom's always fancied himself Greg's role model. Greg's always wanted more once he had more, and been convinced to gamble the security he has (like his inheritence from Ewan) for the possibility of more. But the two still seem to me defined by their different relationships to the family--married in vs. poor relation. For all Greg's being with two women at the wedding, it was Tom he went home with. He's still more focused on improving his standing within his own family than marrying into somebody else's.

Like, if the contessa is a social climber who only knows that Greg's the great nephew of Logan etc., that would make a pair of social climbers, neither of which have the minimal brains or instincts to socially climb. Tom had ambition enough to know who he was marrying. The contessa is somehow unaware that this guy at the wedding dressed less expensively than his cousins--one of whom iirc told her flat-out that Greg wasn't rich--might not be a jackpot who can improve her status in the world? As someone on the outskirts of European royalty she surely wouldn't think an invitation to the wedding meant you were rich--she herself is at that wedding. And the groom bought his own furniture.

And to give Greg a little credit, he himself noted that while the contessa "didn't like to talk about" her royal connections, they somehow wound up talking about them a lot. Tom, otoh, genuinely fell in love with Shiv and has suffered for it, it seems.

[whiporee]

On a rewatch, i realized that Tom wasn't just this leak. He was all the leaks. He was how Logan knew where to send the doughnuts. He's been feeding Logan intel all along. 

[linger]

The ultimate gaslighting of this whole show, most apparent this season, is that Logan is still some business titan.
In a world almost completely devoted & dependent on tech, he has content, but a crappy platform. That glaringly obvious misstep is one of the primary reasons this merger then buy out is even happening. Waystar wouldn’t need GoJo if it had a platform. Waystar wouldn’t be “sinking like a stone”, at least in part, if that situation didn’t exist.

The shareholder’s meeting: Logan can’t be trusted to take his meds & drink a damn bottle of water which results in him being piss mad, setting off frantic negotiations by people who aren’t sure what he would want. And even when they seem to pull it off, he’s a dick.
The DOJ investigation: Absolutely his fault. A couple decades of deplorable behavior and the NHI come back to haunt him. He then tries to maneuver & manipulate his family & inner circle, settles on Kendall as the sacrificial lamb, which fails spectacularly, live & in color.

POTUS: Desperate to get a handle on the DOJ situation he tries to twist the President’s arm through ATN. He overplays that hand & now has no access to the power of the White House & has to try to find a last minute candidate. This ties back to him being piss mad, since Roman gets stuck on the call with the President. While it’s doubtful a conversation with Logan would have changed POTUS’s mind, for sure Roman didn’t stand a chance.

Best I can tell what Logan has done well in the time we have observed him is fuck up in a variety of ways, and sure, manage to come out somewhat intact (Stewy & Sandy). But if he hadn’t made these mistakes, there would have been far less to fix. This company was his empire. His legacy. Having to sell it to a tech wizard Swede because it can no longer stand on its own, a problem of his own making, doesn’t exactly look like winning. 

 

[Lady S.]

14 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Yes, I took the "who told him we were coming?" as just a side thing. It didn't matter when Mom betrayed them--she would have done it anyway. Having it be this dramatic just gave it an extra humiliating note, and a specifically painful one for Shiv. Tom just declared for Logan and that's what was important.

Yeah, I was a bit confused when she said that because surely Logan should also know the terms of his divorce agreement so it's not like it was some secret weapon, but then Shiv's staring at Tom made it clear they had actually been betrayed. It's not that Logan only won because of Tom, it's that Tom a win too because he betrayed Shiv to make a deal with Logan. Maybe if the deal with Caroline wasn't settled yet, Logan would have just spent more time trying to manipulate Roman and Shiv back on side.

13 hours ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

Did you guys notice in the van, Roman said to Kendall and Shiv, "I don't want you guys to big brother me".  I thought that would add fuel to our debate of whether Roman or Shiv is younger 😉

Lol, as soon as he said that I thought of those posts last week. Though just to be annoying, with his submission issues and stated fear of Shiv, I could see him saying that even if he was a year or two older than her. Shiv's probably been bossy from a very young age.

10 hours ago, FemmyV said:

I think he plays the midwestern niceness and “wow I can’t believe how far I’ve come” to the hilt. But everything he did last night shouldn’t really have surprised us, when you consider how completely he tried to set up Greg to take the fall for the cruises cover-up in seasons 1 and 2. 

While I too prefer the Roy siblings having been screwed up since birth to the guy from a good background always trying to be more like this awful family, I do think it worth mentioning that Greg was part of the reason there was a cover-up. Tom's original impulse was to come clean with a press conference and he didn't totally give up that idea until Gerri confronted him at the ball. Tom (and we in the audience, at first) assumed that Shiv tattled on him, but the end of the ep revealed that Greg went to Gerri and lied to Tom's face about keeping his plans secret. I guess that showed the difference in Tom and Greg as a true non-Roy vs. a lifelong peripheral relation. Greg isn't a cunning snake but he has always been a self-interested weasel. 

It's the same goodness underneath I saw with Tom helping Logan at the shareholders meeting or agreeing to let Greg hang his baubles on the Christmas tree too or last season keeping Greg's secret during Boar on the Floor. The fact he has more of a moral compass and cares for these people means I don't think he's been plotting all season (why the hell have his scenes with Shiv go the way they have if he was already against her? That just makes trying to knock her up even worse.), but it does make me judge for choosing to be worse to get more instead of just leaving the wife who doesn't treat him right.

[TheGourmez]

2 hours ago, Lady S. said:

Yeah, I was a bit confused when she said that because surely Logan should also know the terms of his divorce agreement so it's not like it was some secret weapon, but then Shiv's staring at Tom made it clear they had actually been betrayed. It's not that Logan only won because of Tom, it's that Tom a win too because he betrayed Shiv to make a deal with Logan. Maybe if the deal with Caroline wasn't settled yet, Logan would have just spent more time trying to manipulate Roman and Shiv back on side.

Yeah, it was clearly a deal he has JUST made, or he wouldn't be referring to getting "her" back on the phone - they had literally just settled their new divorce agreement. And the only reason that JUST happened, is because Tom alerted Logan. Sure, Logan would have done it in time, once he realized his children were all three united against him, but he still thought he at least had Roman cowed on his side, no matter what. Logan likely did not know they'd united until Tom called and that moment had to be now to undercut them.

[millennium]

Any regular viewer of Survivor knew what was coming the moment Shiv told Tom.   When you have an alliance with enough votes to take out the biggest rival, you don't go around telling people your plan because whomever you tell will invariably consider betraying you for their own advancement.  

[Lady S.]

1 hour ago, TheGourmez said:

Yeah, it was clearly a deal he has JUST made, or he wouldn't be referring to getting "her" back on the phone - they had literally just settled their new divorce agreement. And the only reason that JUST happened, is because Tom alerted Logan. Sure, Logan would have done it in time, once he realized his children were all three united against him, but he still thought he at least had Roman cowed on his side, no matter what. Logan likely did not know they'd united until Tom called and that moment had to be now to undercut them.

Yeah, thinking further Logan would've known about his own divorce agreement clauses but Shiv only knew because of Kendall. Which meant they had to find out about the buy-out while all the siblings were still in Italy together, Shiv had to reach out to Kendall and get him involved, and he had to remember about the supermajority clause. Logan couldn't have predicted all of that and probably would have liked to avoid dealing with Caroline if he could. He came to the wedding but didn't actually want to do further favors for the new hubby whereas manipulating his kids was a tried and true method for him which costs him nothing.

Edited December 14, 2021 by Lady S.

[film noire]

22 hours ago, Pestilentia said:

I don't think Marcia gives the first crap- she got the deal she wanted for herself and both of her kids. 

I think Marcia would take pleasure in seeing Logan's kids - Shiv, especially - displaced and replaced.

Edited December 14, 2021 by film noire

[Pestilentia]

16 hours ago, evansmom10 said:

I've considered this, but did a single other person know what they were planning?  

All three of them (Ken, Shiv, Roman) in the car were on the phone to multiple people getting their ducks in row to confront Logan. Presumably at least one or two of these calls were answered by receptionists and patched through, so several people knew that something was going down. And if Lacky Slacky includes receptionists/secretaries (which of course it does) to track the goings on of mega-moguls  then who is surprised when there's a leak?   

I know the show played it as if it was solely Tom and we here seem to buy that- I do, too. But IMO it is not incontrovertible.  

I think Tom just found a really fun punching bag in Greg. Greg is a bit daft, a bit slow, a bit naive, and very gullible. He's just an easy target for someone whose only joy in life seems to be verbally abusing underlings. That Greg's idea of success include having his own 'Greg' (you could have 20 Gregs!) to abuse tells us that business relationships are a lot like personal relationships- we learn them by observing others.  Logan is no more than a conniving bully, and Tom seems to have attached himself to Logan and is following his example on how to "lead." Then Greg admires Tom and gets his own lackey to bully and on and on it goes.  Is he the one doing the kicking or is he the dog? They are all both.  All except Logan and I swear if I don't get a deathbed scene of he himself getting kicked... But then I remember the scars he tries to hide so badly have never been explained and he was abused himself, so this is simply a never ending circle of people behaving badly because they were never taught otherwise and had no decent role models anywhere in their lives.

Logan's only advantage is that he learned strategy along the way and provides for all contingencies in his plans. He's always three steps ahead because he lays the groundwork for every move that includes all possible outcomes. The kids make a plan and go all in but they never have Plan B or Plan C in their back pockets, so when they hit a snag all they can do is stand there and look dumbfounded. Shivs face when he said "Make your own pile!" was priceless. It was exactly as if someone had said "All you have to do is redirect the dilithium crystal output to the flux capacitor and reverse the polarity of the neutron flow." She was LOST I tell you! But yeah, I'm quite certain Logan had everything in place for all possible outcomes right down to Plans X, Y, and Z.

They just never learn. 

 

[Dminches]

2 hours ago, TheGourmez said:

Yeah, it was clearly a deal he has JUST made, or he wouldn't be referring to getting "her" back on the phone - they had literally just settled their new divorce agreement. And the only reason that JUST happened, is because Tom alerted Logan. Sure, Logan would have done it in time, once he realized his children were all three united against him, but he still thought he at least had Roman cowed on his side, no matter what. Logan likely did not know they'd united until Tom called and that moment had to be now to undercut them.

We don't know that the prior call with Logan and Caroline covered.  Maybe he had called her to give her a heads up that the kids were coming to contest the deal and he was going to have to tell the that the divorce agreement had been altered.

Logan knew exactly what was in the agreement and the potential for the kids to overrule him.  I doubt he left that possibility up to chance.  After all, Caroline was at her wedding.  How did he know she would be free to talk to him?

 

[Lathund]

12 hours ago, Kirsty said:

On a shallow note, how good does Skarsgard look, stretched out under the Tuscan sun? He's a knockout.

Lombardian sun actually, but yes he is!

I only know that because I wanted to figure out where those beautiful shots at and around Mattssons "Swiss" home were from and where that house was. Turns out to not be Swiss, but just across the border at Lake Como. Not that it matters really, but why talk about Switzerland and specifically Lake Maggiore on the show and not just let it be where it is, on Lake Como? 

Coincidentally, Alex Skarsgård was also involved in another of those odd choices on True Blood, where he played a Swedish (ex-)Viking Vampire, where he spoke some Swedish. They brought on his sire for some episodes, played by a Danish actor, and for some reason had him speak pretty bad Swedish instead of just having him speak Danish. Again, inconsequential really, but just a case of making it harder/worse for no reason or gain. 

Anyway, back to the episode! Absolutely loved it, fantastic episode. Great performances all around. Though I think that perhaps the pacing of the season overall could've been better; such a contrast between this episode and most of the season where the plot moved at a glacial pace. Not complaining too much though, the on-location set piece episodes are nearly always great, so utilizing them fully makes sense. That it leads to developments and time happening off screen to an extent is often a good enough tradeoff. 

[Lassus]

14 hours ago, BlackberryJam said:

So, this contessa, or whatever the fuck she is, is just totally feeding Greg a line of bullshit and he’s buying it. Because he’s a social climbing idiot. They absolutely could have said she was a Hungarian or German princess because there are scads of those knocking about Europe to make it plausible, but no, the point is Greg is a fucking idiot. I was seriously laughing so hard at that. The Contessa is just a less honest Willa.

Isn't it just as likely she's an accurately portrayed fictional character?  

[Ellaria]

10 hours ago, BlackberryJam said:

The only risk to Logan not getting the supermajority he needed was if all three children aligned together against him. While Logan likely had thought about the divorce clause, I don’t think he thought the kids would unite against him. He’d done so damn much to isolate them and make them turn on each other. He needed the heads up that they coming for him. I’m certain Logan’s plan was put the deal in place, then tell both Shiv and Roman separately that they were going to get a place in the new company. (Mattson had already dangled that to Roman.) Then, once the deal was done, Logan would again pull the rug out from the kids. Or even better, he’d let Mattson do it...

...When Logan and Roman met with Mattson and after Logan rejected the deal, Mattson asks about the old deal having a new shape, then he purposefully gives a side look towards Roman, and Logan tells Roman to take off. On rewatch, it’s clear that Mattson is saying “Get rid of your son, then let’s talk.” Logan agrees...

...So it seems to me they unite, then make their calls: Kendall verifying the divorce language, Shiv calling Tom, Roman talks to Connor. Tom talks to Greg, gets his allegiance, calls Logan and then hops in a car, speeding behind them. That gives Logan time to pull Caroline out of the reception and negotiate for at least an hour, maybe two before the kids arrive.

Logan’s real manipulation skill with his children is his ability to change gears. He wasn’t going to reveal the Caroline negotiation if he could get Roman or Shiv to join him. Logan is willing to do anything to win, but if he can divide and conquer the kids while doing it, he’s down with that. 

Yes to all of this. When he made the deal, his first thought was (most likely) not that his kids would unite against him. However, he knew how to deal with that possibility - divide them and/or change the divorce agreement.

Tom provided the heads up that the kids were coming and Logan renegotiated with Caroline. Then, when the kids arrive, he first tries to divide them with no success. He then gets an exasperated Caroline back on the phone to reveal that they changed the divorce agreement. 

10 hours ago, aghst said:

So Logan wasn't so much rejecting the kids from significant roles in the future so much as just not even listening to their input.  He was making the decision without them.

Right! The decision with Mattson was made after he sent Roman home. He had no intention of involving his children in this decision.

7 hours ago, whiporee said:

On a rewatch, i realized that Tom wasn't just this leak. He was all the leaks. He was how Logan knew where to send the doughnuts. He's been feeding Logan intel all along. 

That's interesting to consider. 

2 hours ago, TheGourmez said:

Yeah, it was clearly a deal he has JUST made, or he wouldn't be referring to getting "her" back on the phone - they had literally just settled their new divorce agreement. And the only reason that JUST happened, is because Tom alerted Logan. Sure, Logan would have done it in time, once he realized his children were all three united against him, but he still thought he at least had Roman cowed on his side, no matter what. Logan likely did not know they'd united until Tom called and that moment had to be now to undercut them.

Yes - didn't Caroline say that she didn't want to talk about further tonight (paraphrasing)? They had just finalized the change to the agreement when the kids walked in. Logan knew what was coming because Tom alerted him and he got in touch with Caroline.

Then Tom shows up and Logan smiles at him and pats him on the back. 

13 minutes ago, Dminches said:

We don't know that the prior call with Logan and Caroline covered.  Maybe he had called her to give her a heads up that the kids were coming to contest the deal and he was going to have to tell the that the divorce agreement had been altered.

Logan knew exactly what was in the agreement and the potential for the kids to overrule him.  I doubt he left that possibility up to chance.  After all, Caroline was at her wedding.  How did he know she would be free to talk to him?

He didn't leave it up to chance. He could change the divorce agreement at any time as long as Caroline went along with it. Judging by the events of the weekend, Caroline would always make time to talk with Logan if it meant that Logan would use his influence to help Peter. It was always transactional for Caroline. She agreed to exclude Kendall from wedding events to please Logan so he would help Peter.

[Dminches]

6 minutes ago, Ellaria Sand said:

He didn't leave it up to chance. He could change the divorce agreement at any time as long as Caroline went along with it. Judging by the events of the weekend, Caroline would always make time to talk with Logan if it meant that Logan would use his influence to help Peter. It was always transactional for Caroline. She agreed to exclude Kendall from wedding events to please Logan so he would help Peter.

I agree but he would want a signed agreement in place and not have to worry that Caroline would flip (again) after speaking to one of the kids.  That's why I don't think the revised agreement had been hashed out in the preceding 20 minutes since the kids left the wedding.

 

[BlackberryJam]

59 minutes ago, Lassus said:

Isn't it just as likely she's an accurately portrayed fictional character?  

No, not in 2021. Not with a show written this well. It's absolutely clear the Contessa is lying to Greg.

27 minutes ago, Ellaria Sand said:

Yes to all of this. When he made the deal, his first thought was (most likely) not that his kids would unite against him. However, he knew how to deal with that possibility - divide them and/or change the divorce agreement.

Tom provided the heads up that the kids were coming and Logan renegotiated with Caroline. Then, when the kids arrive, he first tries to divide them with no success. He then gets an exasperated Caroline back on the phone to reveal that they changed the divorce agreement. 

Right! The decision with Mattson was made after he sent Roman home. He had no intention of involving his children in this decision.

That's interesting to consider. 

Yes - didn't Caroline say that she didn't want to talk about further tonight (paraphrasing)? They had just finalized the change to the agreement when the kids walked in. Logan knew what was coming because Tom alerted him and he got in touch with Caroline.

Then Tom shows up and Logan smiles at him and pats him on the back. 

He didn't leave it up to chance. He could change the divorce agreement at any time as long as Caroline went along with it. Judging by the events of the weekend, Caroline would always make time to talk with Logan if it meant that Logan would use his influence to help Peter. It was always transactional for Caroline. She agreed to exclude Kendall from wedding events to please Logan so he would help Peter.

Just exactly to all of this. Exactly.

Caroline was holding up her own wedding waiting for Logan. She'd have taken his call mid ceremony.

Edited December 14, 2021 by BlackberryJam

[Lassus]

27 minutes ago, BlackberryJam said:

No, not in 2021. Not with a show written this well. It's absolutely clear the Contessa is lying to Greg.

I mean, sure, maybe.  But if "the California-shrunken little raisin" isn't close to a real 2021 person, I don't entirely know why a lesser Luxembourg Royal on the show would somehow adhere to Site Officiel de la Cour Grand-Ducale.  -shrug-

Edited December 14, 2021 by Lassus

[Ellaria]

27 minutes ago, Dminches said:

I agree but he would want a signed agreement in place and not have to worry that Caroline would flip (again) after speaking to one of the kids.  That's why I don't think the revised agreement had been hashed out in the preceding 20 minutes since the kids left the wedding.

Just my opinion, of course, but I don't think that Logan was at all worried about Caroline changing her mind again. I think it is pretty clear that she priortizes her interests over anyone else's.

The purpose of Tom's appearance at Logan's "war room" and the pat on the back was to indicate that Tom gave him the heads up. It may not matter that Logan could have changed that divorce agreement at any time. What matters is that Logan wanted to throw it in his kids' faces right then and there not weeks or months later. Logan was going in for the kill. It isn't so much "when" he did it as "how" he did it. 

[nilyank]

As long as Kendall was on the outs with Roman and Shiv, Logan didn’t have deal with Caroline in order to get the deal done. Throughout their stay, Logan has been kicking Kendall away not even almost Kendall drowning would have changed that.

Once he knew that the three were united and totally against him selling Waystar, he had to deal with Caroline. He doesn’t tell the trio about Caroline agreeing to change supermajority clause when they first arrive. He first tries kicking Kendall out. When that fails, sending Shiv to take Kendall away so he could just tell Roman. But the siblings stick together so Logan gets Caroline on the phone so that he can prove his mastery over his children and also demonstrate that their mother betrayed them.

Logan had to sell Waystar to save face but he still got to play the Master in Charge when it came to his kids.

[sistermagpie]

11 hours ago, linger said:

Best I can tell what Logan has done well in the time we have observed him is fuck up in a variety of ways, and sure, manage to come out somewhat intact (Stewy & Sandy). But if he hadn’t made these mistakes, there would have been far less to fix. This company was his empire. His legacy. Having to sell it to a tech wizard Swede because it can no longer stand on its own, a problem of his own making, doesn’t exactly look like winning. 

Exactly. He's coasting a lot on reputation. Plus we only see him within his little kingdom where everyone is desperate to get his approval. Plenty in the outside world look down on him. His time is past.

And also within that little kingdom he's the most powerful because he's always willing to treat the kids worse than they'll treat him. They've been raised since birth to fear him; he's raised them to fear him and not be able to imagine a world where he's all-powerful.

3 hours ago, Lassus said:

I mean, sure, maybe.  But if "the California-shrunken little raisin" isn't close to a real 2021 person, I don't entirely know why a lesser Luxembourg Royal on the show would somehow adhere to Site Officiel de la Cour Grand-Ducale.  -shrug-

That's how I see it too. Especially since, as far as I can tell, she's not saying anything that makes a big difference. It's not like she's claiming to be a princess who can hand Greg the crown jewels of Nigeria if he gives her money. She's just making herself, at best, a little more glamorous by saying she has distant ties to monarchies that don't mean much in 2021--either because she really does or because she's close enough to wish she was. We were even hearing it second hand through Greg, to whom this means little. She's an influencer. And in fact, the fact that he mentioned she talked about her ties to the throne a lot makes it seem like those ties to royalty are important to her because they make her feel special, rather than her lying to him. If she was lying, better to say it in passing and remain mysterious. Don't make it your whole boring personality.

50 minutes ago, nilyank said:

As long as Kendall was on the outs with Roman and Shiv, Logan didn’t have deal with Caroline in order to get the deal done. Throughout their stay, Logan has been kicking Kendall away not even almost Kendall drowning would have changed that.

Once he knew that the three were united and totally against him selling Waystar, he had to deal with Caroline. He doesn’t tell the trio about Caroline agreeing to change supermajority clause when they first arrive. He first tries kicking Kendall out. When that fails, sending Shiv to take Kendall away so he could just tell Roman. But the siblings stick together so Logan gets Caroline on the phone so that he can prove his mastery over his children and also demonstrate that their mother betrayed them.

Logan had to sell Waystar to save face but he still got to play the Master in Charge when it came to his kids.

That's how I saw it too. Logan had just hashed out the deal with Caroline before they arrived. She took his call because, as was said above, she would have taken his call mid-ceremony if necessary. She's going to kiss his ass as much as possible to get what she wants. He didn't know he'd need to get rid of that clause before Tom's call.

I also don't think Tom's been leaking to Logan all along. He made a big choice in this ep--he made a deal with the devil, one that hit Shiv on all sides at once.

[DrSparkles]

I hate Logan so much I almost can’t watch him. What. A. Dickhead.