S03.E02: Mass in Time of War

[TimWil]

Shiv’s apology to Roman wasn’t all that genuine, just a sing-songy “SAH-REE.” But I guess coming from Shiv it passed muster with Roman.

[RealReality]

On 10/24/2021 at 7:28 PM, Ms Blue Jay said:

FYI, Kieran Culkin is hosting Saturday Night Live on November 6.

How funny Nicholas Braun showed up this week as a guest on "Whats up with That" 

On 10/24/2021 at 7:30 PM, BlackberryJam said:

I think Logan was telling Shiv he was suiting up Gerri to take the fall for everything, leaving Shiv clean. Then again, the Roys only talk in metaphors and hints. 

Yes, its just as likely Logan uses Gerri to keep himself clean and then just retakes the throne.  Which is what he always said he would do.  

[Ms Blue Jay]

18 minutes ago, TimWil said:

Shiv’s apology to Roman wasn’t all that genuine, just a sing-songy “SAH-REE.” But I guess coming from Shiv it passed muster with Roman.

I think she meant it, and she agonized with her siblings over whether she was in the wrong or not.  She tried to say it flippantly, but personally, I think she meant it.  And Roman tried to downplay it too, he brushed it off like she didn't upset him.

[Blakeston]

Here's the dialogue at the end regarding what Logan is preparing Shiv for:

Logan: "I want to get you in before the shareholder meeting. High-level. President."

Shiv: "Uh-huh. What does it mean?"

Logan: "It means whatever you want it to mean."

Shiv: "Okay, so...made up?"

Logan: "Someone at the top with credibility."

Shiv: "A mascot?"

Logan: "My eyes and ears, Shiv. At the heart of everything through this shitstorm, but wearing a full chemical and biological suit, going by the name of Gerri Kellman."

So I guess he's saying, "I want you in a position at the top, where you can be my eyes and ears, and you won't have to worry about getting burned, because Gerri will take all of the heat."

[Lady S.]

11 hours ago, northboundtrain said:

* Tom's conspiratorial "We'll have to see if he buys that" to Greg surprised me. I guess Tom's figured that, for now, it's in his best interest to protect Greg even though he knows Greg's already passed off the papers.

Tom did cover for Greg during boar on the floor against his own interests, rather than revealing Greg's "pre-meeting" with the biographer. Theirs is another complicated alliance, and despite his continued bullying of Greg(ory), I feel like Tom has more emotional investment in the relationship. I guess that's just the kind of guy he is, whether in his marriage or his fuck-up apprenticeship of his wife's cousin.

[TimWil]

Just rewatched the episode, Greg stresses the apartment is “not mine” so now I don’t have to wonder about that Threepenny Opera theater poster anymore. I hope he takes that PR gal Comfry to bed under a poster of the Lincoln Center production of The Cherry Orchard (with Irene Worth’s face gazing down in judgment).

[thuganomics85]

I know Conner's suppose to be the useless fuck-up out of the Roy kids (I mean, yeah, they're all fucked-up in their own ways), but him getting distracted and even contemplating eating the donuts Logan sent him was surprisingly relatable, heh.  Man just wants to his thing and eat some donuts!

No surprise that Kendall's big pitch to the rest of his siblings ended with a thud and it's equally not surprising that it led him going straight into attack mode and lashing out (for someone who is all about wanting to be an "ally" to women lately, he certainly seems to have no problems using sexist attacks on Shiv...)  He really is not a pleasant person when things don't go his way.  As for his plan: on one hand, I do think he was right that Logan would be defeated if all of the Roy kids banded together.  On the other hand, I also think Gerri was right that the board would not let any of the Roy kids takeover either.  Really, I'm at the point that I don't think any of them are going to come out ahead, unless they "rule" by proxy.  The Roy name is just too toxic, I think.

Glad to see Marcia back into the fold and I definitely think she can be a major player here.  She at least made sure she was well compensated for it after Logan fucked things up.  Also curious about Stewy and Sandy getting involved again: along with Sandy's daughter played by Hope Davis.

Greg is so out of his element here!  At least he seems to have the wherewithal to get himself legally protected, but I have a feeling that Ewan (always good to see James Cromwell!) and this lawyer guy might have their own agenda here and aren't afraid to toss Greg to the wolves if need be.

Aww, Tom and Greg had their first exchange of the season!  Sure, it involved Tom at one point saying that Greg was going to get a "thousand poisonous spiders up his dickey", but that's just the way he talks to those he cares about!

All four of the actors playing the Roy siblings just really seem to have the time of their lives when they're just in scenes together, and the characters are just razzing and putting one another down any time they can.

[aghst]

Conor hasn't mentioned his presidential campaign at all this season.

Did they just drop it or is he dropping it because the Broadway play has killed the campaign, unless he gets a cash infusion from Logan?

 

[Lady S.]

2 hours ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

I think she meant it, and she agonized with her siblings over whether she was in the wrong or not.  She tried to say it flippantly, but personally, I think she meant it.  And Roman tried to downplay it too, he brushed it off like she didn't upset him.

Yeah, none of them can deal sincerely with genuine emotion between them (because Logan would have raised them to see that as weakness), but they still care deeply. Shiv asking Kendall if she went too far seemed notable in itself, and Roman somehow found time to get Kendall's favorite pastries while trying his best in every other way to treat him like their worst enemy, and then he covers for Shiv to Logan after repeatedly saying he was only there to spy on her, and neither of them reported anything Kendall said to Logan. Then there's Roman defending Connor to Kendall after Con stuck up for him, even though he's said meaner stuff about Connor himself, including the crack last season about his mother. Connor turned out to be the most mature out of all of them, hugging Kendall in greeting as if there were no hard feelings, freely admitting that they all knew about "Uncle Mo" even if that didn't make it their fault, scolding Shiv about Roman and going to bring him back, and I'm assuming Kendall's insults didn't get under his skin because he really has heard it so many times before. He's completely delusional about the outside world beyond the family, but when it comes to their bullshirt, seems Logan really did him a favor by setting him aside years ago in favor of the kids from his second marriage.

Speaking of family dysfunction, it's fucked-up not just that the reasoning for the donuts being safe was only that Logan wouldn't poison his grandchildren, but also that Logan's greeting to Roman involved fake-punching him. I still don't believe that was a one-off incident last season, given Kendall's instinctive reaction. 

10 minutes ago, thuganomics85 said:

No surprise that Kendall's big pitch to the rest of his siblings ended with a thud and it's equally not surprising that it led him going straight into attack mode and lashing out (for someone who is all about wanting to be an "ally" to women lately, he certainly seems to have no problems using sexist attacks on Shiv...)  He really is not a pleasant person when things don't go his way.  As for his plan: on one hand, I do think he was right that Logan would be defeated if all of the Roy kids banded together.  On the other hand, I also think Gerri was right that the board would not let any of the Roy kids takeover either.  Really, I'm at the point that I don't think any of them are going to come out ahead, unless they "rule" by proxy.  The Roy name is just too toxic, I think.

Not just attack mode, Logan mode. Logan has also called Roman a moron and Shiv a coward, and you know Roman's remark about Connor being told he doesn't matter plenty of times before referred to Logan. I also don't think it's a good sign that Kendall still shares Roman's mindset about Logan's ability to "shut it all down", going on to the lawyer about being prepared to have the police arrest the FBI or whatever. Comparing Logan to Alexander the Great also says a lot imo. (And why would anyone wanna recreate what happened after he died?)

Kendall is right that Shiv doesn't have the experience, but I think she's also got a point that the guy still trying to stay out of jail (and still trusting Stewy for some reason) is not the obvious best choice either. It's just that none of them would admit that someone outside the family might be the best choice because they really do see it as a birthright to inherit. Either one of them must win Daddy's love/#1 spot or one of them must take him down, but there's no taking the backseat for another sibling to do so. 

[caitmcg]

40 minutes ago, aghst said:

Conor hasn't mentioned his presidential campaign at all this season.

Did they just drop it or is he dropping it because the Broadway play has killed the campaign, unless he gets a cash infusion from Logan?

 

And when Connor asked him for it, the price of a cash infusion from Logan was dropping the campaign, which Logan stated was embarrassing him. 

[Blakeston]

It takes a lot of chutzpah for Roman - who constantly shits on everyone and lives for low blows - to act like Shiv's comments crossed a line.

I really, really want to know how his siblings know about his proclivities in the first place. Did they find a mess on a window after he left a room?

[Eyes High]

14 hours ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

I think she meant it, and she agonized with her siblings over whether she was in the wrong or not.  She tried to say it flippantly, but personally, I think she meant it.  And Roman tried to downplay it too, he brushed it off like she didn't upset him.

Of course, Roman brushed off Logan knocking out his tooth, too. I don't think his dismissive response is any kind of accurate gauge for whether or not it was incredibly hurtful or upset him.

I don't think Shiv particularly "agonized" over whether she was in the wrong or not. She initially tried to scoff when Connor flat-out told her it was low and only doubted herself after he scolded her. Even then, she giggled when Kendall reassured her that Roman loved being insulted and probably got off on it. Not exactly genuine remorse there. (Compare it to Shiv's bereft "Well I'm sorry" after Tom muses about whether he'd be happier without her in 2x10.)

2 hours ago, Blakeston said:

It takes a lot of chutzpah for Roman - who constantly shits on everyone and lives for low blows - to act like Shiv's comments crossed a line.

I don't know. Roman has said a lot of horrible things to his siblings over the course of the series, but someone's sexuality is something so personal that mocking someone's sexual hangups that obviously stem from some sort of past psychological trauma is crossing a line. And the fact that the siblings have known the whole time about Roman's inability to have penetrative sex and humiliation kink--neither Connor nor Kendall act surprised when Shiv brings it up, Kendall casually suggests that Roman "loves" being insulted and is probably masturbating because he was insulted--but have never once mentioned it, even though Roman is constantly making hypersexual comments and insulting them suggests that they know damn well that there is a line. And when was the last time one of the siblings chewed out another for being too cruel? They're constantly being awful to each other, but Shiv's comment was the one that got Connor to call her out. There is a line, Shiv crossed it, and they all knew it.

[sistermagpie]

4 hours ago, Blakeston said:

It takes a lot of chutzpah for Roman - who constantly shits on everyone and lives for low blows - to act like Shiv's comments crossed a line.

I really, really want to know how his siblings know about his proclivities in the first place. Did they find a mess on a window after he left a room?

I don't think they know specifically what he gets off on, but so much of his personality suggests it that they probably don't know how truthful they're being. That is, Kendall may have been speaking metaphorically about him jacking off after being insulted without realizing the audience have seen it play out literally. And maybe even the same with Shiv's initial comment, though in that case they may have actually heard from various women that he doesn't actually have sex with them.

[tennisgurl]

Roman and Shiv heckling Kendall while he was pitching his big plan was hilarious. Its been awhile since all four of the Roy siblings were all together just them, and you know things are bad when Connor actually sounds somewhat reasonable, at least compared to Kendall's unhinged mania. I guess I cant blame everyone for expecting less then nothing from Connor, considering he's a moron and a massive weirdo, but I do feel rather bad that everyone treats him like an afterthought, it makes me want him to shock everyone with a big power move just to see the look on everyone's faces. 

Its not every day that donuts are so ominous. "I am...98% sure those aren't poisoned." Those were definitely "I know that all of you are meeting, you cant hide anything from me" warning donuts, its hard to tell if those threatening donuts did convince Shiv, Connor, and Roman to stick with Logan or if that was always what they were going to do. Its really hard to tell who comes out of this ahead, Kendall makes some good points about Logan's best days being behind him and if all four Roy siblings did all join against him, he would be screwed. He might be screwed anyway, especially with the FBI circling him. On the other hand, Kendall seems like he is more having a severe manic episode then coming up with a real plan to take over the company, and you don't want to count Logan out of the game just because things look bad for him now.

In the last episode I was joking about this show's similarities to Arrested Development, but it actually does kind of line up. Connor is Job, the oldest song who's discounted by the family because he's a dopy weirdo with weird niche hobbies and delusions of grenadier. Kendall is Michael, the seemingly most responsible sibling who does the most work for the family business but is hampered by his massive neurosis and need to be the best. Shiv is Lindsay, who puts on a show about being a liberal philanthropist but is quite selfish and only quasi understands the causes she champions, Tom is Tobias, the awkward oddball brother in law who the rest of the family finds ridiculous and who's marriage is not subtlety a mess as his wife seems to only grudgingly tolerate him most of the time, Roman is Buster, the youngest kid and dilatant who seems to do nothing but get involved in random hijinks, has some weird mommy issues, and tries to be taken seriously and usually fails, Logan's second wife, mom of Kendall, Shiv, and Roman, had some real Lucille vibes for the brief time we met her, and of course Logan is George Senior, the emotionally abusive patriarch who's empire is filled with legal sketchiness, came up with bizarre punishments' for his kids while they grew up, is a massive prick but always draws his kids back into his orbit, and has a hippie brother he hates. 

Edited October 26, 2021 by tennisgurl

[Ms Blue Jay]

2 hours ago, Eyes High said:

Of course, Roman brushed off Logan knocking out his tooth, too. I don't think his dismissive response is any kind of accurate gauge for whether or not it was incredibly hurtful or upset him.

I never said it was.  In fact, I implied the complete opposite.

2 hours ago, Eyes High said:

I don't think Shiv particularly "agonized" over whether she was in the wrong or not. She initially tried to scoff when Connor flat-out told her it was low and only doubted herself after he scolded her. Even then, she giggled when Kendall reassured her that Roman loved being insulted and probably got off on it. Not exactly genuine remorse there. (Compare it to Shiv's bereft "Well I'm sorry" after Tom muses about whether he'd be happier without her in 2x10.)

There is a lot of subtext in the acting on this show.  Everything won't be spelled out 100%.  It's up to interpretation, and I do interpret her agonizing a bit, which is exactly why she said "Sorry" to him when she saw him again.

[smartymarty]

Nobody has mentioned the hilarity of Greg asking his friend, who has not even finished her first year of law school, for legal advice!! And now the poor lad thinks Gramps is looking out for him.

 

30 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

they may have actually heard from various women that he doesn't actually have sex with them.

Didn't someone Kendall or Connor dated end up with Roman, or vice versa?

[cardigirl]

22 minutes ago, smartymarty said:

Didn't someone Kendall or Connor dated end up with Roman, or vice versa?

It wasn't dating and it was Tom.  They met at Tom's bachelor party.

[txhorns79]

27 minutes ago, smartymarty said:

Nobody has mentioned the hilarity of Greg asking his friend, who has not even finished her first year of law school, for legal advice!!

I thought it was kind of sad.  Sometimes Cousin Greg seems smart, or at least a little shrewd.  Other times, he comes off as really naive, and I think he only exists so they can have scenes where Greg stands next to Kendall or Roman and towers over them. 

 

6 hours ago, Blakeston said:

It takes a lot of chutzpah for Roman - who constantly shits on everyone and lives for low blows - to act like Shiv's comments crossed a line.

Isn't that the epitome of Roman?  He loves to dish it out, but often cannot take it?

[sistermagpie]

3 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

Isn't that the epitome of Roman?  He loves to dish it out, but often cannot take it?

Or his sister would say, he loves showing people his pee-pee, but doesn't fuck anything.

[Blakeston]

3 hours ago, Eyes High said:

I don't know. Roman has said a lot of horrible things to his siblings over the course of the series, but someone's sexuality is something so personal that mocking someone's sexual hangups that obviously stem from some sort of past psychological trauma is crossing a line. And the fact that the siblings have known the whole time about Roman's inability to have penetrative sex and humiliation kink--neither Connor nor Kendall act surprised when Shiv brings it up, Kendall casually suggests that Roman "loves" being insulted and is probably masturbating because he was insulted--but have never once mentioned it, even though Roman is constantly making hypersexual comments and insulting them suggests that they know damn well that there is a line. And when was the last time one of the siblings chewed out another for being too cruel? They're constantly being awful to each other, but Shiv's comment was the one that got Connor to call her out. There is a line, Shiv crossed it, and they all knew it.

Roman mocked Connor about his mother being put in a mental institution, and mocked Kendall about not having sex with Rava. When it comes to vicious insults about deeply personal things, I don't think there's any line he hasn't crossed himself.

I get Shiv feeling guilty, because he's her little brother, and it wasn't her intention to hurt him badly. But I don't think Shiv felt that she'd gone further than Roman would.

[BlackberryJam]

I think Roman, of all the Roy children, was likely to have suffered the brunt of physical abuse by Logan, so much so that the physical abuse continues into adulthood. I think it's also likely that Roman suffered some sexual abuse about which the Roy children are all aware. 

That doesn't make Roman immune from being mocked and insulted, but like all families, there are invisible lines about what is acceptable and what crosses a line. I don't think any of the Roy siblings have ever been truly wounded by one of Roman's comments, but I haven't done a rewatch in a while. I'm not saying Shiv was wrong, just explaining why Connor reacted the way he did. 

[aghst]

If he was abused and the kids are mocking him for his hangup, which may be related to the abuse, then they're truly monstrous.

[Jordan Baker]

Isn't Shiv the youngest of the Roy children? I'd also thought it was Roman, but I just checked (and, you know, info on the internet is never wrong!), and Roman is listed as Logan's second-youngest child, with Shiv being the baby.

Speaking of Shiv, I can never tell whether Logan is being genuinely affectionate or completely manipulative when he calls Shiv "Pinkie."

[Ms Blue Jay]

34 minutes ago, Jordan Baker said:

Isn't Shiv the youngest of the Roy children? I'd also thought it was Roman, but I just checked (and, you know, info on the internet is never wrong!), and Roman is listed as Logan's second-youngest child, with Shiv being the baby.

Whaaaaaat?  I'm shocked.  Sarah Snook is a whole 5 years younger than Kieran too, but I always think of the Culkins as so young so that's mind-boggling!  She's so statuesque in comparison.  (I adore Kieran, but!)

Also, I don't think I knew Connor was from a different marriage until I read it here.

Edited October 26, 2021 by Ms Blue Jay

[RedDelicious]

36 minutes ago, Jordan Baker said:

Speaking of Shiv, I can never tell whether Logan is being genuinely affectionate or completely manipulative when he calls Shiv "Pinkie."

Same. Pinkie seems to be Shiv's kryptonite. So incredibly manipulative on the part of Logan. Same with "number one" that he used with Connor and has used with Kendall.

I go back and forth on who is older; Shiv or Roman. I can't find anything conclusive. Us Weekly says Roman is the youngest but Newsweek says Shiv is the youngest. I've always gone by the opening credits with the girl as #3.

[buttersister]

Quote

Conceivably, it could come out that Logan covered for Kendall. 

#TeamMarcia

[CouchTater]

I always thought the opening credits just showed representatives of the Roys' class, not the actual Roys.  I think Connor is significantly older than at least Shiv and Roman (my guess is at least 10 years), but the kids shown in the credits all seem to be close in age.

Does anyone know if the show's creators have confirmed that the opening credits are supposed to be home movies of the Roys?

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, RedDelicious said:

I go back and forth on who is older; Shiv or Roman. I can't find anything conclusive. Us Weekly says Roman is the youngest but Newsweek says Shiv is the youngest. I've always gone by the opening credits with the girl as #3.

I think I've also read both, but Shiv seems like the middle child and Roman seems younger. I get the feeling they might have started off wanting Shiv to be youngest, but Roman's character changed. Remember in the pilot he's got the woman and the little girl and they seem obviously intended to be his own wife and kid--at least that's how they come across in that ep. Then later she's identified as just a girlfriend and the little girl just disappears with her. So I think the show itself switched their ages as their characters developed.

[Eyes High]

5 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

On the last episode I was joking about this show's similarities to Arrested Development, but it actually does kind of line up. Connor is Job, the oldest song who's discounted by the family because he's a dopy weirdo with weird niche hobbies and delusions of grenadier. Kendall is Michael, the seemingly most responsible sibling who does the most work for the family business but is hampered by his massive neurosis and need to be the best. Shiv is Lindsay, who puts on a show about being a liberal philanthropist but is quite selfish and only quasi understands the causes she champions, Tom is Tobias, the awkward oddball brother in law who the rest of the family finds ridiculous and who's marriage is not subtlety a mess as his wife seems to only grudgingly tolerate him most of the time, Roman is Buster, the youngest kid and dilatant who seems to do nothing but get involved in random hijinks, has some weird mommy issues, and tries to be taken seriously and usually fails, Logan's second wife, mom of Kendall, Shiv, and Roman, had some real Lucille vibes for the brief time we met her, and of course Logan is George Senior, the emotionally abusive patriarch who's empire is filled with legal sketchiness, came up with bizarre punishments' for his kids while they grew up, is a massive prick but always draws his kids back into his orbit, and has a hippie brother he hates. 

“Don’t call my escorts whores” is definitely something Connor would say. And Tom like Tobias has a habit of saying (unintentionally?) homoerotic things, like yelling “I will not let go of what is mine!” when Greg tries to “break up” with him in 2x04 or asking Greg whether he does house chores in the nude.

3 hours ago, BlackberryJam said:

I think Roman, of all the Roy children, was likely to have suffered the brunt of physical abuse by Logan, so much so that the physical abuse continues into adulthood. I think it's also likely that Roman suffered some sexual abuse about which the Roy children are all aware. 

That doesn't make Roman immune from being mocked and insulted, but like all families, there are invisible lines about what is acceptable and what crosses a line. I don't think any of the Roy siblings have ever been truly wounded by one of Roman's comments, but I haven't done a rewatch in a while. I'm not saying Shiv was wrong, just explaining why Connor reacted the way he did. 

It’s interesting that Roman’s physical abuse can be brought up without rancour—someone mentions Logan hitting a Roman when he ordered lobster at a restaurant in S2—but bringing up his sexual issues (possibly stemming from sexual abuse) is crossing a line.

It’s strange that Shiv lashed out with such a cruel comment unprompted, since Shiv and Roman seem fairly close as Roy siblings go (even with their slap fight in S1) and a lot of their insults read as standard sibling ribbing (Shiv referring to Roman’s wider cultural interests as hatred and Instagram). I guess it’s going to get uglier as the stakes get higher.

3 hours ago, aghst said:

If he was abused and the kids are mocking him for his hangup, which may be related to the abuse, then they're truly monstrous.

I tend to think that there must be something truly bad at the root of Roman’s issues that they all know about, because why else would they have what appears to be a tacit agreement not to bring it up no matter how many sexually inappropriate comments Roman makes or no matter how much he insults them? Everything else is fair game for commentary—Logan’s mistresses, Kendall’s substance abuse issues, Willa being a paid companion, Connor being unloved, even Roman being physically abused, among other things—but Roman’s celibacy and humiliation kink are off limits?

14 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

I think I've also read both, but Shiv seems like the middle child and Roman seems younger. I get the feeling they might have started off wanting Shiv to be youngest, but Roman's character changed. Remember in the pilot he's got the woman and the little girl and they seem obviously intended to be his own wife and kid--at least that's how they come across in that ep. Then later she's identified as just a girlfriend and the little girl just disappears with her. So I think the show itself switched their ages as their characters developed.

Yeah, going back to the first few episodes, Roman doesn’t seem all that different, but Shiv is virtually unrecognizable. It’s hard to imagine the glamorous, poised S3 Shiv with dowdy clothes, unstyled hair and no makeup getting into a physical fight with Roman.

[sistermagpie]

50 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

I tend to think that there must be something truly bad at the root of Roman’s issues that they all know about, because why else would they have what appears to be a tacit agreement not to bring it up no matter how many sexually inappropriate comments Roman makes or no matter how much he insults them? Everything else is fair game for commentary—Logan’s mistresses, Kendall’s substance abuse issues, Willa being a paid companion, Connor being unloved, even Roman being physically abused, among other things—but Roman’s celibacy and humiliation kink are off limits?

1 hour ago, sistermagpie said:

But then, was his humiliation kink the thing being made fun of? It seems like she was referring to impotence, which was meant to be metaphorical (even if it was also physical). So it was his inability to actually do anything, make any real impression, follow through on anything. Obviously sex was part of it, but that's a bigger metaphor for his whole stunted existance more along the lines of Conor's "you're not wanted." Once he was gone Kendall referred to him jerking off after being insulted, which was the kink, but that seemed like it lightened the mood. 

[Kel Varnsen]

On 10/26/2021 at 12:38 AM, Blakeston said:

So I guess he's saying, "I want you in a position at the top, where you can be my eyes and ears, and you won't have to worry about getting burned, because Gerri will take all of the heat."

Yea I took that as President of Waystar Royco would be a high up job, but not as high as Jerri's CEO job so that Jerri would catch all the shit from the current scandal.

I also thought it was interesting that in this episode Marcia called Rhea, from last season, a whore and then right after that basically said how much money she would need in order to be with Logan.

22 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Kendall is Michael, the seemingly most responsible sibling who does the most work for the family business but is hampered by his massive neurosis and need to be the best.

Kendall and Michael are both the kind of jerks who think they are good people without really realizing their own jerkyness. Kendall also doesn't really pay attention to his kids.

Edited October 27, 2021 by Kel Varnsen

[peachmangosteen]

14 hours ago, buttersister said:

#TeamMarcia

13 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

I think I've also read both, but Shiv seems like the middle child and Roman seems younger. I get the feeling they might have started off wanting Shiv to be youngest, but Roman's character changed. Remember in the pilot he's got the woman and the little girl and they seem obviously intended to be his own wife and kid--at least that's how they come across in that ep. Then later she's identified as just a girlfriend and the little girl just disappears with her. So I think the show itself switched their ages as their characters developed.

Yea, there have definitely been some pretty big retcons since season 1. I never know whether things will actually come up again or if they'll just pretend they never happened like they've done with other things lol. It actually is kinda frustrating to me.

[RedDelicious]

13 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

I think I've also read both, but Shiv seems like the middle child and Roman seems younger. I get the feeling they might have started off wanting Shiv to be youngest, but Roman's character changed. Remember in the pilot he's got the woman and the little girl and they seem obviously intended to be his own wife and kid--at least that's how they come across in that ep. Then later she's identified as just a girlfriend and the little girl just disappears with her. So I think the show itself switched their ages as their characters developed.

It's been so long since I watched the Pilot but if I recall correctly Roman even had a wedding band. Speaking of childhood abuse, wasn't there something about Roman being locked in a dog crate for punishment or was that a prank amongst the siblings?

[ichbin]

On 10/24/2021 at 10:26 PM, DoubleUTeeEff said:

I love Marcia. She really took advantage of that opportunity. I loved her lawyer laying out her case and Logan's lawyer looking gobsmacked.

I've been saying from the first season that Marcia is the character to watch.  She might have the potential to be the smartest and most cut throat of them all.

[caitmcg]

2 hours ago, RedDelicious said:

Speaking of childhood abuse, wasn't there something about Roman being locked in a dog crate for punishment or was that a prank amongst the siblings?

It was Connor and Kendall doing it to Roman, and in the episode where it came up, they insisted he enjoyed it (which he denied).

[sistermagpie]

2 hours ago, RedDelicious said:

It's been so long since I watched the Pilot but if I recall correctly Roman even had a wedding band. Speaking of childhood abuse, wasn't there something about Roman being locked in a dog crate for punishment or was that a prank amongst the siblings?

 

37 minutes ago, caitmcg said:

It was Connor and Kendall doing it to Roman, and in the episode where it came up, they insisted he enjoyed it (which he denied).

I think they even said he asked them to do it--which frankly, I can totally believe. Like he thought it was a game where he pretended to be a dog. Especially since, iirc, it was Connor who said it was a game, and he didn't say it as if he was defensive or laughing at him. Like he was just surprised.

[meowmommy]

17 hours ago, CouchTater said:

I think Connor is significantly older than at least Shiv and Roman (my guess is at least 10 years), but the kids shown in the credits all seem to be close in age.

IRL the actor who plays Connor is only ten years younger than Brian Cox, and well over 20 years older than each of the actors playing his siblings.  Although he looks great for his age. 

[CouchTater]

2 minutes ago, meowmommy said:

IRL the actor who plays Connor is only ten years younger than Brian Cox, and well over 20 years older than each of the actors playing his siblings.  Although he looks great for his age. 

Wow, I had to look this info up.  I can't believe Alan Ruck is 65!!!  He looks terrific!

[sistermagpie]

35 minutes ago, meowmommy said:

IRL the actor who plays Connor is only ten years younger than Brian Cox, and well over 20 years older than each of the actors playing his siblings.  Although he looks great for his age. 

 

30 minutes ago, CouchTater said:

Wow, I had to look this info up.  I can't believe Alan Ruck is 65!!!  He looks terrific!

Heh. Seems fitting since one of his first big roles was playing a high school senior at 30--that baby face has served him well.

[laurakaye]

On 10/25/2021 at 2:07 AM, Lady S. said:

I don't think it was a coincidence that the sibling meeting was written to take place in a kid's room.

I watched that scene at least four times.  I found it weirdly funny that Roman chose to uncomfortably fold himself into that wicker seat with the fairy lights during the siblings' chat.  But I also noted that when Kendall was word salading how they could make the company theirs, global domination, etc. - Shiv's eyes became very focused, like she was starting to believe that they could truly accomplish what Kendall was suggesting.  Did anyone else clock that?  

 

On 10/25/2021 at 9:29 AM, Blakeston said:

Biggest laugh of the episode - Shiv has her father listed in her phone with Saddam Hussein's photo. 😆

This is exactly why I have to watch each episode twice. :)

 

On 10/25/2021 at 12:39 PM, BlackberryJam said:

It’s interesting to me that Shiv and Tom are exchanging weird “I love yous.” I don’t remember that from prior seasons. It tells me Shiv is less secure in the relationship than she had been.

They are all so dismissive of Connor that I want him to matter at some point. I mean, he’s dumb and has terrible judgment, but he’s still Cameron who crashed his father’s car.

Regarding Tom, I am loving him standing up to Shiv and telling her that she can't just make a withdrawal of his love whenever she wants him.  And then when she asked him straight up if he loved her, he said "Yeah.  I do.  I do" in such a sweet way that I think I love Tom now, too.

Alan Ruck/Cameron/Conner is everything.  I adore him.

One odd thing, and something I love about this show, is how the actors are staged.  When Roman and Shiv were talking in Rava's apartment, Roman climbs the spiral staircase and does this weird peeking through the bars thing at Shiv, who is forced to turn around to talk to him.  It was interesting because it seemed so strange.  It makes me think that there might be subtext where actually, none exists.  Or does it?

When Greg grabbed some of the cruise papers to keep, did he actually know what he was taking or did he just take a few pages randomly?  I can't remember if he was reading as he was shredding, but he's such a goofball that I'm constantly wondering if those mysterious papers actually have anything on them that could truly sink WayStar.

I love this show.

[Milburn Stone]

On 10/25/2021 at 12:38 PM, aghst said:

The actor who played Sandy is not coming back, which is why they had him on speaker in this episode.  Instead they introduce his daughter, played by Hope Davis!

Seeing her made me yearn so much for her to have been cast as Hillary in Impeachment.

[BC4ME]

I will say this for Greg -- he does a great job acting awkward and naive yet at the same time being (if even only subconsciously) conniving. I was interested and amused that in all his awkward stammering, pretending to go along and non committal conversations that he somehow manages to understand the core of what is happening to him. For all his apparent lack of intelligence and sophistication, he certainly seems to have a strong sense of preservation. Like an idiot savant at self preservation.

I don't think he'll fall for Ewan's scheme.  

[sistermagpie]

2 hours ago, BC4ME said:

I will say this for Greg -- he does a great job acting awkward and naive yet at the same time being (if even only subconsciously) conniving. I was interested and amused that in all his awkward stammering, pretending to go along and non committal conversations that he somehow manages to understand the core of what is happening to him. For all his apparent lack of intelligence and sophistication, he certainly seems to have a strong sense of preservation. Like an idiot savant at self preservation.

I'm not a part of this necessarily.

[caitmcg]

1 hour ago, sistermagpie said:

I'm not a part of this necessarily.

Every single response Greg gave during that conversation with Tom had a qualifier. He clearly didn’t want or couldn’t make himself fully commit to the lie, so it was all weasel words. I was amazed Tom didn’t call him on it. Can’t you just picture Tom saying, “Necessarily, Greg? Necessarily?”

[BrownBear2012]

On 10/25/2021 at 12:36 PM, Carolina Girl said:

Anyone else notice that Logan did not shake Jerri's proffered hand when the plane landed?  Her expression never changed.  

 

Yeah...he blew her off. I noticed...something bad is going to happen to her.

8 hours ago, Milburn Stone said:

Seeing her made me yearn so much for her to have been cast as Hillary in Impeachment.

I think they were going for someone with a harder edge...I wasn't sold on Edie Falco but after seeing last night's episode, she won me over.

[BrownBear2012]

11 hours ago, ichbin said:

I've been saying from the first season that Marcia is the character to watch.  She might have the potential to be the smartest and most cut throat of them all.

I agree! She could definitely cut a bitch!!!

On 10/25/2021 at 10:21 PM, TimWil said:

Shiv’s apology to Roman wasn’t all that genuine, just a sing-songy “SAH-REE.” But I guess coming from Shiv it passed muster with Roman.

It sounded like a 10 year old Shiv who was forced to apolgize to little brother Roman by their mother.

[TimWil]

Exactly. So the apologetic intent underneath may have been genuine but it was still couched in a smartass, juvenile attitude. 

[Kel Varnsen]

7 hours ago, BrownBear2012 said:

Yeah...he blew her off. I noticed...something bad is going to happen to her.

Maybe, but she seems to have a pretty good level of awareness. That scene where she was on the phone with Roman and she told him that there was no way that shareholders would let him or his idiot siblings run the company after Logan was gone, was really good.

[MizLottie]

Are the kids aware of Marcia's return?  I thought we saw her only in Sarajevo, that might make them regret not backing Kendall.

[Milburn Stone]

5 hours ago, Kel Varnsen said:

[Gerri] seems to have a pretty good level of awareness. That scene where she was on the phone with Roman and she told him that there was no way that shareholders would let him or his idiot siblings run the company after Logan was gone, was really good.

Agree. It also points out the blindness that people who are in the thick of a situation can have. That statement from Gerri is so completely obvious that the only thing remarkable about it is that she actually had to say it. 1.4 million viewers could have told the children that. The only ones who can't see it are the four of them. And that's totally true to life.