S04.E06: Vows

[mamadrama]

I don't have much to say about this one. The "previously on" section went on for way too long and yet that wound up being the most interesting part to me. This felt like filler except for Samira's acting which was great. 

My husband only made it through the first 12 minutes. He got up, grumbled something about this feeling forced , and left the room. I haven't seen him since. 

Edited May 20, 2021 by mamadrama

[Umbelina]

1 hour ago, greekmom said:

 

I'm confused on the flashbacks. I thought Luke left his wife because June was already pregnant. Now show is saying he left Annie cause he wanted kids with June.  Yeah show, I am not buying this. Go s

Luke didn't leave his wife because she couldn't have children.  June was in and out of hallucinating all kinds of things.

Luke and June had an instant physical attraction and began an affair.  It turned into more during the affair.  He realized he loved June and she loved him so they decided to marry right after he divorced his wife.  His wife showed up to try to stop it all.

June was on birth control for a long time, and Luke knew that.  They then tried for a baby and eventually had Hannah.

20 minutes ago, chaifan said:

What surprised me about the debate on the ship on whether or not to turn June in is that no one considered the most likely effect of doing just that...  turn June in, yes, June will die a horrible death.  But, as soon as all the Gilead soldiers are off that boat, that boat would be blown to smithereens.   There is no way Gilead would allow the boat or any of its passengers to survive.  They'd claim it was a gas explosion or something like that

Wow, that's an interesting idea.  I think Gilead is (for now anyway) just using the threat of war for negotiation to get all the kids back, as well as Fred and Serena.  I can't remember if they are demanding everyone back that's sought asylum there, or just those on the plane.

I don't think Gilead really wants a war with Canada or anyone else, I think it's posing, mostly because right now it's not even controlling it's own people in several areas.

20 minutes ago, chaifan said:

One thing I've never understood about oppressive regimes is their refusal to let people who want to leave leave.  It's certainly the cheaper option instead of imprisoning them, which means you have to house and feed them, and use crucial manpower to guard them.  Even capturing them to execute them is a waste of resources that could be used elsewhere.  Yeah, I know, it's a power thing.  But just stupid, especially for a financially struggling country.

I really doubt they would imprison June.  I think it would be a very public and painful execution.

What Gilead wants back though, is the kids, and anyone who might be able to give them more kids, fertile women.

They are also short of Commanders now, since June poisoned so many of them in Jezebels.  That's why they have Lawrence back.

Edited May 20, 2021 by Umbelina

[lucindabelle]

Omg I was

so

bored.

had June actually gone back I was going to throw something at the tv.

my 80-something moms critique of this show:

she gets out, she gets caught. She gets out again, she gets caught again.

one thing I DID like was that June’s idee fixe that Luke would blame her or that she’s not good enough is... her own thing. As in reaL life, people have insecurities and ideas that are not real- just as Moira’s suspicions of Luke turned out to be wrong. (It’s OFTEN true that if he cheats with you he’ll cheat on you. It’s not ALWAYS true.)

I found it interesting that June has this nugget of low self esteem and insecurity. 
 

next week I hope we can pick up the plot again. Lydia. Commanders. Serena. 

[EllaWycliffe]

20 minutes ago, chaifan said:

My thoughts on the route the boat took...  Someone above posted the map of the Great Lakes, and the long route to go from Chicago to Toronto.  But, do we actually know they disembarked in Toronto?  I don't recall anyone saying it, just "Canada".  It makes more sense that the boat left from a port much closer to Chicago.  Moira and Oona, and later Luke, just flew to that port from Toronto.  Also, the dock looked like a very remote/rural dock, not a city dock or commercial port.

It seems unlikely the boat went all the way from Chicago to Toronto. I think Oona said they were leaving from Thunderbay in the prior episode.  We didn't see a skyline, but agreed, that doesn't look like Toronto.

 

25 minutes ago, chaifan said:

What surprised me about the debate on the ship on whether or not to turn June in is that no one considered the most likely effect of doing just that...  turn June in, yes, June will die a horrible death.  But, as soon as all the Gilead soldiers are off that boat, that boat would be blown to smithereens.   There is no way Gilead would allow the boat or any of its passengers to survive.  They'd claim it was a gas explosion or something like that.  Or maybe just own up to it - after all, they did end the cease fire early just to kill people who were out looking for aid.  That would have been a more interesting discussion.

That would be a blatant act of war, especially if the aid workers were turning June as they were supposed to. Granted, no one from Gilead *has* to explain themselves but if they don't - then they're the assholes who blew up a random ship of aid workers for shits and giggles. Even if they insist the aid workers were hiding June - international law would jump down their throats. They have justification to remove June from the ship. Murdering noncombatant aid workers would bring down a lot of wrath. It means, for starters. that all bets are off - they've proven they don't want to follow international law so no one is going to allow them to leave their own waters safely. 

 

31 minutes ago, chaifan said:

I agree with everyone above saying they could have easily taken June to another location and/or hid her for a few weeks to take the focus off the aid group.  I suppose that's still possible, but unlikely.

I'm surprised it didn't come up but honestly too many people know June was there, and June doesn't seem in good enough shape to convincingly lie.

33 minutes ago, chaifan said:

One thing I've never understood about oppressive regimes is their refusal to let people who want to leave leave.  It's certainly the cheaper option instead of imprisoning them, which means you have to house and feed them, and use crucial manpower to guard them.  Even capturing them to execute them is a waste of resources that could be used elsewhere.  Yeah, I know, it's a power thing.  But just stupid, especially for a financially struggling country.

I think its as simple in this case as this. If you weren't threatened with being shot crossing the border, you'd leave. Not many Handmaids are going to stay if they can freely leave. 

[Hathaway]

One of the reviews said this show was only 40 minutes!  Also that most was filmed on a real boat in winter, because of Covid delays.  I wonder why it was so short? 

It was good though, and left so much to look forward to.  Luke and June back together?  I don't care that much about, but June with Moira/Serena/Fred/Emily?  I'm there.

 

[Bannon]

40 minutes ago, lucindabelle said:

Omg I was

so

bored.

had June actually gone back I was going to throw something at the tv.

my 80-something moms critique of this show:

she gets out, she gets caught. She gets out again, she gets caught again.

one thing I DID like was that June’s idee fixe that Luke would blame her or that she’s not good enough is... her own thing. As in reaL life, people have insecurities and ideas that are not real- just as Moira’s suspicions of Luke turned out to be wrong. (It’s OFTEN true that if he cheats with you he’ll cheat on you. It’s not ALWAYS true.)

I found it interesting that June has this nugget of low self esteem and insecurity. 
 

next week I hope we can pick up the plot again. Lydia. Commanders. Serena. 

I understand why the writers wanted to have a scene with Hannah being frightened of June this season; it drives home the horror of how totalitatian regimes destroy the most essential bonds that people have. I agree with your mother, however; the show has had too many June captures and escapes by now, and I say that as somebody who thinks the Father Knows Best angle of the prison's tweedy torturer was especially well done.

This last episode was obviously drawn out with overwrought dialogue histrionics by writers laboring hard to fill minutes in a bridge episode, like a middle schooler trying to hit the 500 word minimum on a term paper by using extra adjectives. It was at first jarring, in an unpleasant way, and then tedious. Hopefully, they'll get back on track from here on out.

 

 

[Hathaway]

I wasn't bored at all.  I really didn't know if June would leave!  I wasn't even sure if Moira would. 

I wish it was a full hour really.  The flashbacks were great, but I wish they'd used that 15/20 minutes we didn't get.

They probably wanted all the Canada stuff together though, or didn't want to lessen the impact of June on free soil for the first time in years.  

Next episode better be extra long.  With Serena in tears.

 

 

 

[mamadrama]

There was no real suspense for me because the S4 trailers have shown June in Canada since the new season started. 

I am grateful that the episode was relatively short. I don't think I could be handled dragging it out any further. I'm also grateful that they didn't drag it out over multiple episodes.

They needed to get June to Canada and this was the bridge between it and Gilead. I didn't hate it but I didn't love it. I was just "whelmed."

[Hathaway]

I just remembered.  Serena gave Nicole away so she could be raised away from Gilead.  I think only two people know that.  

Will they believe June?  Will it at least scare Serena?

[mamadrama]

1 hour ago, Hathaway said:

I just remembered.  Serena gave Nicole away so she could be raised away from Gilead.  I think only two people know that.  

Will they believe June?  Will it at least scare Serena?

I'm worried that Fred will wind up being Nichole's real father. 

[ElectricBoogaloo]

4 hours ago, Hathaway said:

One of the reviews said this show was only 40 minutes! 

I checked the time at the end of the episode and can confirm that it was indeed only 40 minutes long.

4 hours ago, Bannon said:

This last episode was obviously drawn out with overwrought dialogue histrionics by writers laboring hard to fill minutes in a bridge episode, like a middle schooler trying to hit the 500 word minimum on a term paper by using extra adjectives. It was at first jarring, in an unpleasant way, and then tedious.

I agree. Although there were a few moments of conversations that I thought were good, it felt like what actually happened in this episode only needed about 15 minutes and it got padded out like crazy because they wanted to keep this entire episode to only June escaping. At least Moira got some moments to shine.

 

[SourK]

Well, I was a sobbing wreck for the whole thing, but less because the show was good and more because the idea of a parent being forced to leave their child in a war-torn dictatorship is so horrible.

My guess is that Janine is going to be alive with the left-behind people in Chicago. And then she's going to realize that June escaped without her. And then she's going to realize that her son is dead and June lied to her (which they've been building up to for so long, now). This may be a super villain origin story.

I'm impatient to find out what happens in Canada, so I was annoyed that we still didn't get there, but, at the same time, I was complaining that Hannah was a plot token a few episodes ago, and I like that they invested in reminding us that June, Luke, and Hannah were a family before this happened, so that we could connect more, emotionally.

17 hours ago, ReganX said:

It being debated bothered me. I would have seen it more as a case of "Moira shouldn't have brought June, but since she did, we will protect her."

From what we saw, it turned out to be stupidly easy to smuggle an extra person out of Gilead, so, yes, there shouldn't have been any question. But, theoretically, if they believed it was going to be virtually impossible, then it's much worse for them and their mission if they get caught trying to hide her than if they turn her in. They don't really have the ability to protect her.

(For a minute, before they boarded the ship, I thought Moira and June were going to switch places so that June could go back by pretending to be Moira, while Moira stayed in Chicago -- and then Moira and Janine would be together for the next leg of the story, etc, etc. But, no, it turns out you can just make up a random person and that's okay).

[greekmom]

7 hours ago, EllaWycliffe said:

It seems unlikely the boat went all the way from Chicago to Toronto. I think Oona said they were leaving from Thunderbay in the prior episode.  We didn't see a skyline, but agreed, that doesn't look like Toronto.

 

8 hours ago, chaifan said:

My thoughts on the route the boat took...  Someone above posted the map of the Great Lakes, and the long route to go from Chicago to Toronto.  But, do we actually know they disembarked in Toronto?  I don't recall anyone saying it, just "Canada".  It makes more sense that the boat left from a port much closer to Chicago.  Moira and Oona, and later Luke, just flew to that port from Toronto.  Also, the dock looked like a very remote/rural dock, not a city dock or commercial port

 

I was the one who posted the map. Actually my thoughts are they didn't even go via Thunderbay because again - too far of a boat ride. I put a red dot where approximately Thunder Bay is and a green dot where Sault St. Marie is.  Most likely they left from Sault St. Marie. as it didn't take them long to travel back into Canadian waters.  But of course none of this is named because like Chicago vs Detroit it's not as 'sexy'. Please forgive the accuracy. It's 7:15 am and I am working on my first cup of coffee.

Edited May 20, 2021 by greekmom

[BeatrixK]

22 hours ago, ReganX said:

It's odd that they would characterize Luke as obsessed with having a baby considering one of the flashbacks in Season 2, where June was shown to be using birth control after Hannah. Luke was incredulous that the pharmacy asked to see proof that he had signed off on it, and said that it was ridiculous. June was the one to suggest stopping. Is Luke supposed to have been obsessed with being a father but also content to be "one and done"?

Well...I don't necessarily see it as problematic on the 'one and done' - Sure...birth rates are low and YAY, we are having a baby!  But, while having that baby, society is rapidly changing and you see things are going badly, and there had to be rumblings of what the 'pre-Gidiad' faction had in store:  You wanna advertise your wife is fertile?  You want to risk bringing a female child into this that is gonna have no rights or be treated as a brood mare?  Might change your ideas real fast on wanting a big family if you know each child puts your family at risk for different reasons while you are caught in the middle of a country on the brink of civil war.

Samira Wiley:  Holy Crap woman - make me cry like a toddler with their blankey in the dryer, why don't you!  Outstanding work this episode from her.

 

 

[weightyghost]

8 hours ago, EllaWycliffe said:

It seems unlikely the boat went all the way from Chicago to Toronto. I think Oona said they were leaving from Thunderbay in the prior episode.  We didn't see a skyline, but agreed, that doesn't look like Toronto.

As someone from northern Ontario, they absolutely did not leave from Thunder Bay. Thunder Bay is on the northwestern shore of Lake Superior. They would have to boat through the entire length of Lake Michigan, into Lake Huron, cut through where Manitoulin Island is from the province (which is like a four hour drive from Toronto), then into Lake Superior and travel the entire length of Superior just to get to Thunder Bay. To then hop on a 2 hour flight back to Toronto. 

As a user above stated, they must have hopped off at Sault or they left closer to Toronto... either way, as someone from the north who is excited to hear town names because we're often forgot, it's annoying for them to screw up the geography like that (unless there was a reason to lie). 

[Empress1]

18 minutes ago, BeatrixK said:

Samira Wiley:  Holy Crap woman - make me cry like a toddler with their blankey in the dryer, why don't you!  Outstanding work this episode from her.

I'm so glad she got something to do - I've often felt like she's underused here.

[revbfc]

Why did the CERA people have refugees locked up at the dock if they had no intention of taking them anywhere?  

[greekmom]

2 hours ago, revbfc said:

Why did the CERA people have refugees locked up at the dock if they had no intention of taking them anywhere?  

I don't think they were refugees per say. I think they were just Americans still living in the War Zone (Chicago area) and caught in the bombing.

I think the gates were to prevent them from storming onto the boat.

Not sure why if they are in the war zone have they not taken their chances to make it into Canada? Or is Canada refusing anyone as a refugee unless they are a woman in real danger? 

[EllaWycliffe]

I'm not an expert but in general, non Gilead situations, neutral aid workers can't take citizens from the aided country to a new country as refugees unless they have government permission to do so. In this situation Gilead let them in to provide aid but doesn't want anyone leaving, so fencing off the dock area stops stowaway etc.

[aghst]

BTW, why didn't they have a story already about the wounds on June's face before they were questioned by the Guardian?

Moira had to interject, which should raise more suspicions.

And Oona waited until the Gilead boats intercepted them to tell them to print up fake ID papers for Rachel Smith?😕

[chaifan]

10 minutes ago, aghst said:

BTW, why didn't they have a story already about the wounds on June's face before they were questioned by the Guardian?

Moira had to interject, which should raise more suspicions.

And Oona waited until the Gilead boats intercepted them to tell them to print up fake ID papers for Rachel Smith?😕

I agree.  It would have made much more sense for someone to say to the guard, she was injured in the bombings (you know, the ones that were done before the cease fire ended) and has a mild concussion, so she may not completely understand your questions.  

 

[Stiggs]

Ah, Moira and June, together again. Just that made me love this episode. We don't get nearly enough of Moira (and Emily!), and she had me bawling about 15 seconds into the show. 

And what kind of cartoon NGO was Oona running anyway, letting her Gilead refugee girlfriend go into Gilead war zones? And did they help anyone? Or did they just patch up some folks and then leave them in a truck? And why balk at harboring Angel Flight June when you clearly have no trouble breaking the rules anyway? Later, lady. Moira can do better. I'm super confused about the whole Toronto-to-Chicago trip, but I don't care if it means I got more Moira scenes. 

While I think the Elizabeth Moss worship does get a little old, she had some great scenes this episode as her head was jacked up. I legit just bawled when she was in the truck and realized it was Moira. And I know that last step was just close-up porn but man, it worked for me. 

And now I just want to see June make them hurt. Really looking forward to what's coming next. 

Also, we had better see Jeanine soon. For real man. 

Also also, maybe one day, we'll find out WTF is the deal with Nick. 

[SassyCat]

What annoyed me most in this episode, was the way Luke greeted June. It reminded me of my married days where the ex would come home from work and never ever say “hello” to me first. Just looked at me silent and smile-less. Like I was an underling who needed to address the lord and master first with a greeting. He was playing the “Who’s gonna say hi first” game, and refusing to be the first one to, that so many males do as an act of passive aggressiveness and hierarchy.

Sheesh, she has just been through hell and he’s gonna play the flippin who’s gonna say hi first game. He should just have swooped her up in his arms the moment he laid eyes on her, not stand there looking at her, with that strange look on his face making her wonder about his feelings. That was a big factor in me making my ex, an ex.

[Brn2bwild]

2 hours ago, EllaWycliffe said:

I'm not an expert but in general, non Gilead situations, neutral aid workers can't take citizens from the aided country to a new country as refugees unless they have government permission to do so. In this situation Gilead let them in to provide aid but doesn't want anyone leaving, so fencing off the dock area stops stowaway etc.

What I don't get is why Gilead has any say in Canadian workers taking a refugee from American soil. Chicago may be at war with Gilead, but it is not Gilead territory.

[weightyghost]

41 minutes ago, SassyCat said:

What annoyed me most in this episode, was the way Luke greeted June. It reminded me of my married days where the ex would come home from work and never ever say “hello” to me first. Just looked at me silent and smile-less. Like I was an underling who needed to address the lord and master first with a greeting. He was playing the “Who’s gonna say hi first” game, and refusing to be the first one to, that so many males do as an act of passive aggressiveness and hierarchy.

Sheesh, she has just been through hell and he’s gonna play the flippin who’s gonna say hi first game. He should just have swooped her up in his arms the moment he laid eyes on her, not stand there looking at her, with that strange look on his face making her wonder about his feelings. That was a big factor in me making my ex, an ex.

I didn't take it that way. I think he was super excited (and was happy when he first saw her) but seeing her face(her bruised face), realizing she is clearly torturing mind, holding herself back, been raped and beaten and destroyed... his face only dropped when her face dropped. He didn't know how she would react to his touch. As much as it would have been nice to have some huge, theatric reunion - these are two people who haven't seen each other in 5+ years one of which has been raped the entire time. If it was my spouse, I would want to make sure they were okay with my touch before I jumped at them. 

[Andyourlittledog2]

9 hours ago, SourK said:

From what we saw, it turned out to be stupidly easy to smuggle an extra person out of Gilead, so, yes, there shouldn't have been any question.

I had to roll my eyes at that. I mean, seriously. They have the ability to create real IDs right there on board the boat?  Why? How? Wouldn't an inspection notice it and ask what the hell?  And if they did have it, and I don't for a minute believe anyone would have it, then why all the histrionics about June being immediately discovered as not one of them?  This show can be so weird sometimes.

[Pepper the Cat]

I found it odd that the people inspecting the boat/people didn’t recognize June. 
isn’t she like on the most wanted list? Wouldn’t her face be plastered everywhere? 

[Stiggs]

3 hours ago, weightyghost said:

I didn't take it that way. I think he was super excited (and was happy when he first saw her) but seeing her face(her bruised face), realizing she is clearly torturing mind, holding herself back, been raped and beaten and destroyed... his face only dropped when her face dropped. He didn't know how she would react to his touch. As much as it would have been nice to have some huge, theatric reunion - these are two people who haven't seen each other in 5+ years one of which has been raped the entire time. If it was my spouse, I would want to make sure they were okay with my touch before I jumped at them. 

I feel like Luke was probably told not to rush her - didn't we see some of that with Emily and her wife in earlier seasons? I was impressed with both actors during the scene where Luke and June saw each other again because it was so insanely awkward and heavy, and the moment he realized how guilty she felt was powerful. I've never been Luke's biggest fan - I'm with Moira and think June could have done better, heh, as super handsome as Luke is - but I like what his character has developed into, as little as we've seen of it. There's enough guilt between the two of them to power Vegas. 

I hope we get a lot of Canada next week. And that Janine is somehow there, like, having a tea with a wacky story of how she hopped on fishing boat and wound up in Canada and ran into Emily, who was like, skipping rocks from the shore. :) A girl can dream...

So, June reunites with Nicole in Canada... I'll be interested in how they paternity issue will work out, and if we'll ever find out What Nick Did. 

Edited May 20, 2021 by Stiggs

[The Mighty Peanut]

I wasn't bored at all. This is one of my favorite episodes of the series, mainly because of Samira but also because it *moved forward* literally and figuratively.

I still don't think bringing June with them is that terrible or akin to an act of war. I hate this word but the optics of turning in June would have caused a riot. However we feel about her as a character, in the fictional universe of the show, June is one of the greatest civil rights activists of the times.To hand her over to be murdered would have been unthinkable. All they had to say is she snuck on, they found out and were unable to stomach sending the angel of Angel's Flight to be tortured, raped, and killed.

June Osborne is the face of everything wrong about Gilead. The woman who brings in the big money at fundraisers. It would have gone over like a lead balloon to just give her away knowing it meant death or worse. Even plot armor wouldn't have kept June safe. A regular stowaway would have been executed. June would have been horrifically tortured whether by Aunt Lydia's cruel hand or waterboarding and having her nails ripped out. Her best case scenario was a breeding colony.

I feel what they did from a humanitarian perspective is a very forgivable offense. She can also offer the Canadians intelligence about Mayday and into Commander Lawrence and how he operates so that they may be better able to defend themselves. YMMV. I imagine the Waterfords' trial is high profile. Now they've got THE star witness.

And it's a tv show and they needed to get her out of Gilead like we've (myself included) been complaining about for literally years. Whoever found her whether it was Moira or the coast guard would technically have been harboring a fugitive, just like it was when they found Emily who had murdered commanders and put an aunt in the hospital.

I personally think if they would have left her there or turned her in just so they would be following realistic protocol we would all be quitting the show.

Edited May 20, 2021 by The Mighty Peanut

[Umbelina]

6 hours ago, greekmom said:

I don't think they were refugees per say. I think they were just Americans still living in the War Zone (Chicago area) and caught in the bombing.

I think the gates were to prevent them from storming onto the boat.

Not sure why if they are in the war zone have they not taken their chances to make it into Canada? Or is Canada refusing anyone as a refugee unless they are a woman in real danger? 

From everything we've heard on the show, Chicago (and other areas) are complete war zones, and have been for years, not under Gilead control, or rebel control.  Anyone there was probably one one side or the other right now, mixed in with a few scattered "just hiding out and surviving" groups like Steven's.  If non-soldiers were pro-Gilead, it just makes sense that Gilead would have gotten them out of there by now, especially if they were fertile, or able to be official soldiers of Gilead.

5 hours ago, aghst said:

BTW, why didn't they have a story already about the wounds on June's face before they were questioned by the Guardian?

Moira had to interject, which should raise more suspicions.

And Oona waited until the Gilead boats intercepted them to tell them to print up fake ID papers for Rachel Smith?😕

To me it looked like they did have a story for June to tell, but she was in and out of reality from her head wound.  Moira stepped in and saved the day, saying the words June was probably supposed to say.  In the end, it was more believable for her to blank like that.

The passes for the mission may have just been paper printed, the soldiers didn't seem to ask for Canadian ID, or they would have found out Moira was a refugee too, right?  Or do you guys think Moira has become a citizen?  Wouldn't there be some indication on ID of an immigrant?

2 hours ago, Pepper the Cat said:

I found it odd that the people inspecting the boat/people didn’t recognize June. 
isn’t she like on the most wanted list? Wouldn’t her face be plastered everywhere? 

True.  They are off in the wilds of "not quite Gilead" though, but they do have computers.  Perhaps those alerts were pulled when they had her recaptures?  

I dunno, plot hole.

[tennisgurl]

On 5/19/2021 at 10:04 PM, Brn2bwild said:

The way Oona acted, you'd almost think June was Moira's former lover. 

I got this weird vibe that Oona was jealous of June, that she thinks they were really more than "just" friends. Even when Moira was hugging her and almost crying with joy that she found her long lost best friend, she just looked annoyed and a bit pissed. I can get her perspective, that they could get shut out of the country to help people in Chicago if they were seen as aiding and abetting someone as dangerous and infamous as June, but still really was quick to try and turn her over. Couldn't they just pretend they found her somewhere? I thought that June might end up in Chicago, I would like to see more of what's going on there. 

The episode was alright, I mostly liked it because, after fake out after fake out, June has finally made it to Canada, I was worried she would keep getting caught and escaping over and over again until she makes it to Canada in the last second of the season, so we are finally making progress, but it was mostly boring. Just a filler episode that was needed so that June could get from point A to point B. It was just June on a boat and a bunch of people arguing and flashbacks to stuff we know already. We know that Moira didn't like Luke, we knew that June and Luke really wanted a kid and that June was insecure about his first wife, it was all a waste of time. Moira isn't wrong that people that cheat do often end up cheating on their next partner, even the person they were cheating with the first time, but she cant be too mad at Luke when June was also having that affair, that was all on both of them. Plus we know that they did stay together, until all of this. I am glad that they finally did acknowledge that June's obsession with getting to Hannah, even when it makes no logistical sense, is really based around guilt and survivors guilt. Its not logical, but she feels so terrible that she couldn't protect her own child, the one thing a parent longs to do, that its just swallowed her. I think that Luke wont be upset with her, he has dealt with a lot of survivors guilt about about making it to Canada while June and Hannah were trapped in Gilead, but June was just happy he escaped. Luke would have certainly been killed, unlike June there was no reason for Gilead to keep him alive, she was just happy he made it and that there was a chance they could see each other one day. Now that both of her parents are alive and away from Gilead, Hannah could have a chance to see them too. 

Honestly, I spent most of the episode worrying about Jeanine. I know that June will be fine, she's has titanium plot armor, but Jeanine could end up a tragic casualty and she's one of my favorite characters. 

Edited May 21, 2021 by tennisgurl

[greekmom]

Those coast guards seemed pretty nice to the women despite being Gilead.

So Oona is ok with bringing Moira (probably had to fake her papers - she said born and bred in Toronto) but not getting June out and blaming Moira for the possible shut down of the aid office.

What if Moira was caught and exposed to have been a refugee? Oona is running a Mickey mouse operation.

Forgot to add.... 

Did anyone notice that June's ear has healed from a few seasons ago? Remember her first escape she basically cut off part of it where the red clip was and was left with a bit of a missing top? Seems it regrew.

When June finally states what has happened, I want her to TELL EVERYTHING. Especially in great detail to everyone (Canadians, Americans, the news media) on exactly how they treat and torture women.  How women are basically treated like cattle. 

Edited May 20, 2021 by greekmom

[Ms Blue Jay]

On 5/19/2021 at 8:50 AM, ReganX said:

Unfortunately for Annie, the Colonies seems a likely place for her to have ended up if she is still in Gilead. She can't remarry since, under Gilead's law, she is still married to Luke. Best case scenario for her is probably that she has family among the Econo-population with whom she can live. I doubt she'd have become an Aunt.

Who is Annie?

Couldn't they have just hidden June somewhere on the boat?  The security check didn't even involve a guy checking out the damn boat.  LOL.  Didn't he just stand at the front and ask for names?  Great security check.  All of that fucking arguing when June could have just hit in a barrel or a closet?

Edited May 20, 2021 by Ms Blue Jay

[BodhiGurl]

3 minutes ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

Who is Annie?

Luke's ex wife

[Ms Blue Jay]

Just now, BodhiGurl said:

Luke's ex wife

thank you.  Did they have a child together?

[EllaWycliffe]

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

The passes for the mission may have just been paper printed, the soldiers didn't seem to ask for Canadian ID, or they would have found out Moira was a refugee too, right?  Or do you guys think Moira has become a citizen?  Wouldn't there be some indication on ID of an immigrant?

I assumed Oona provided Moira with a fake id since Moira was invited last minute and doesn't actually work for the NGO. Refugees don't become citizens so fast - at least in the real world. Any id Moira had couldn't reflect her true immigration status because she would be snatched back by Gilead.

The more I consider "Oona invited her girlfriend on the mission" the more annoyed with this aspect of the plot I get. Moira is a well known refugee from Gilead - she's up in Fred's face on camera at rallies in Canada during their diplomatic trip. While not as famous as June "Angel Flight" Osborne, she's not an unknown. Her status as an ex Handmaid/escapted Jezebel whore is known. If she's on disputed soil, Gilead can grab her and send her to the rape farms... and Canada can't do a thing about it because Moira is a refugee who willingly returned to her point of origin. Further, Moira wasn't just in the dockyard, in "Canadian" territory, she was roaming the streets of Chicago looking for god knows what, the same place armed Gilead soldiers were roaming.

Frankly I question this NGO sending any women to disputed territory at all, because Gilead's word can't be trusted but jeez louise, Moira the refugee was a boneheaded idea. 

51 minutes ago, greekmom said:

Those coast guards seemed pretty nice to the women despite being Gilead.

Special mission, probably warned to not attack the women even if they mouthed off. Not really on home territory so they were minding their manners.  In a society where you end up torn apart by crazy handmaids for minor crimes, you don't want to be the guy who creates a diplomatic incident. 

 

55 minutes ago, greekmom said:

So Oona is ok with bringing Moira (probably had to fake her papers - she said born and bred in Toronto) but not getting June out and blaming Moira for the possible shut down of the aid office.

What if Moira was caught and exposed to have been a refugee? Oona is running a Mickey mouse operation.

Oona fucked up. I actually think her saving June was less about Moira putting her in an impossible position that she could then make Moira feel shitty about and more "The NGO is screwed but if I save June, maybe no one will remember my girlfriend who is an untrained refugee got invited by me for this".

[bettername2come]

I love seeing Moira and June back together. I love Moira's love and loyalty to June. And the irony of June calling Moira "crazy" for coming back. Samira Wiley deserves another Emmy for this. So glad June finally got to Canada and Luke. Elisabeth Moss did a great job with the guilt and desire to go back to save Hannah, and she and Samira Wiley had great chemistry overall. Sorry June's arrival is screwing things up with your girlfriend, but seriously, Oona should never have taken Moira with a false Canadian identity anyway. 

[Kel Varnsen]

6 hours ago, Brn2bwild said:

What I don't get is why Gilead has any say in Canadian workers taking a refugee from American soil. Chicago may be at war with Gilead, but it is not Gilead territory.

The whole idea that the aid agency would lose their NGO status with Gilead if June was found on board made no sense. You dummies, Gilead already bombed you once after agreeing to a cease fire and were coming back for more. Your NGO status is long gone.

[Zonk]

Well this makes no fucking sense. Moira is an ex-handmaid. She also killed a commander. And she can just waltz in and out of Gilead with them having these stringent border controls and the aid workers keeping stuff on the up and up?! Buh humbug! How would she ever get on that team? I don't care that she says she is "Toronto born and bred". They said they wouldn't get any more aid missions if June was found. The same would go for Moira. She would be way too much of a liability. She can't give head that good that Oona would risk everything to not be apart from her for a few days.

So nobody of the border patrol had a picture of June Osborne, enemy number one? K...

Also we've seen in season one that Gilead isn't technology averse. And this season we've seen fighter jets and drones. So how in the hell are the handmaids' finger prints not in a central Database and every person going in and out of the country gets checked?! Gilead is a totalitarian regime for god's sake! It doesn't make any sense!

Edited May 21, 2021 by Zonk

[thedessie]

.

Edited May 21, 2021 by thedessie
Accidental cat post. Sorry.

[Zonk]

22 hours ago, chaifan said:

One thing I've never understood about oppressive regimes is their refusal to let people who want to leave leave.  It's certainly the cheaper option instead of imprisoning them, which means you have to house and feed them, and use crucial manpower to guard them.  Even capturing them to execute them is a waste of resources that could be used elsewhere.  Yeah, I know, it's a power thing.  But just stupid, especially for a financially struggling country.

The problem is, maybe 10% of people like the opressive regime, at least until you've brainwashed new generations and that will take decades. So you gotta impron and torture the ones who oppose your regime to keep the 90% of people who don't like it in line. Otherwise soon you won't have a regime anymore.

[LuckyMommy]

I have a theory I want to put out in the universe.

when they released the trailers for this season, there were also the recaps of some the main characters with narration. Is it just me or do some of those seem like witness statements that you might hear in court or during a senate type investigation?

in one of the trailers they show June dressed up and in a court like setting.

If that is the case, and those narrations are some sort of testimony then Janine is alive since there was one for her with narration.

This isn’t a recent thought either, from the moment I saw those, that is what they sounded like. However I have read articles and listened to podcasts and no one has this theory yet (that I have seen anyway) and I am just wondering if I am crazy or alone in these thoughts.

[EllaWycliffe]

2 minutes ago, LuckyMommy said:

f that is the case, and those narrations are some sort of testimony then Janine is alive since there was one for her with narration.

Clever thought. I sure hope so. I like Janine the crazy ass.

[lucindabelle]

If it’s that stupid easy to smuggle someone out they should be smuggling out at least a few people every trip.

 

signed, Jewish woman still bitter about the St Louis.

[EllaWycliffe]

52 minutes ago, lucindabelle said:

If it’s that stupid easy to smuggle someone out they should be smuggling out at least a few people every trip.

Agreed but here's the thing. It was not something that happens every day in Gilead. (By Gilead, I mean inside US borders, whether its contested like Chicago or not). Ships from Canada aren't normally allowed in, and do-gooding Canadian civilians aren't allowed to roam free, gathering Americans with Gilead ouchies. So its not like all along the borders, Handmaids and whoever can just hop on handy Canadian transports. Such ships would be really rare - I think that rarity is what Oona and the others were hinting at - they don't get to go in very often and ow that they're guilty of smuggling refugees, they will get to go in a lot less. 

[mamadrama]

I know it took 4 seasons for June to get to Canada but it still feels rushed to me. I wish we'd gotten more of the slice of life in Gilead. June has been escaping, going on the run, and getting caught for the past 3 seasons. What I liked about S1 was the quiet horror- pictures on the food packaging, women shut out of everything, how boring daily life was for wives...I wish we had more of Gilead in general. I feel like I barely got the chance to really know her and now she might be ready to implode.

The original argument was that this is the "handmaid's tale" and therefore we could only see what June saw. That argument was shot to hell, though. We've seen lots of perspectives. 

[ReganX]

On 5/20/2021 at 4:03 AM, chaifan said:

One thing I've never understood about oppressive regimes is their refusal to let people who want to leave leave.  It's certainly the cheaper option instead of imprisoning them, which means you have to house and feed them, and use crucial manpower to guard them.  Even capturing them to execute them is a waste of resources that could be used elsewhere.  Yeah, I know, it's a power thing.  But just stupid, especially for a financially struggling country.

I think that part of it is that oppressive regimes don't want to admit that they're oppressive, so a mass exodus would be bad optics.

There's also the long-term issue to consider. Somebody who doesn't agree with their ways can be "re-educated" or produce children who will grow up conditioned by their school to be loyal to the regime.

The oppressive regimes aren't necessarily going to be in a position where they can afford to lose people's labour, education and skills. Somebody who doesn't like the regime but who keeps their head down, does their job and gets on with their life as best they can because they're afraid of being imprisoned or executed is useful to the regime.

In the case of Gilead, they have a vested interest in keeping children and fertile women in the country.

Luke fleeing by himself may have been seen as good riddance to a sinner. Luke fleeing with June and Hannah was a threat to Gilead's future.

When Emily, Sylvia and Oliver were at the airport to go to Canada, they were questioned about who Oliver's biological mother was. I can't help but wonder if they might have let Emily leave with them if Sylvia had been the biological mother, or they had claimed that she was. An Emily deemed to be "barren" may have been considered to be not worth forcing her to stay.

Then again, Gilead relies on having a supply of "sinners" to be put to work in the Colonies.

I wonder what would have happened to Luke had they not fled. In the book's epilogue, it notes that non-marital couplings and second marriages (presumably in the case of divorce, not widowhood) were deemed unlawful, that the children would be taken and that the female partner would be arrested. What about the male? Would Luke have been ordered to return to Annie, and left to live his life as an Economan?

 

11 hours ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

Who is Annie?

Couldn't they have just hidden June somewhere on the boat?  The security check didn't even involve a guy checking out the damn boat.  LOL.  Didn't he just stand at the front and ask for names?  Great security check.  All of that fucking arguing when June could have just hit in a barrel or a closet?

It may be that one guy was checking passes while others searched the boat.

It could also be that it was at Gilead's discretion how in-depth a security check there was, and they had no way of knowing if it was going to be a relatively straight-forward check of IDs or if every inch of the boat would be searched, in which case hiding June in plain sight may have been the less risky option compared to hiding her in a closet.

Edited May 21, 2021 by ReganX

[Scarlett45]

Mod Announcement:

While speculation based on trailers or aired scenes are not spoilers, discussion of theories and speculation is best suited to this thread.

[Scarlett45]

3 hours ago, ReganX said:

The oppressive regimes aren't necessarily going to be in a position where they can afford to lose people's labour, education and skills. Somebody who doesn't like the regime but who keeps their head down, does their job and gets on with their life as best they can because they're afraid of being imprisoned or executed is useful to the regime.

In the case of Gilead, they have a vested interest in keeping children and fertile women in the country.

Luke fleeing by himself may have been seen as good riddance to a sinner. Luke fleeing with June and Hannah was a threat to Gilead's future.

When Emily, Sylvia and Oliver were at the airport to go to Canada, they were questioned about who Oliver's biological mother was. I can't help but wonder if they might have let Emily leave with them if Sylvia had been the biological mother, or they had claimed that she was. An Emily deemed to be "barren" may have been considered to be not worth forcing her to stay.

(bolding mine)

Yes, humans are valuable to oppressive regimes even outside of a framework of chattel slavery. If people see their peers leaving without violence or resistance, how is the regime going to stay afloat? 

I remember that scene- ugh my heart was breaking because I was sure Emily told the truth because 1. the truth is the first thing that comes to your mind, and 2. she wanted to stay with her son, confirming she was his bio-mother in most frameworks would ensure that.

[Empress1]

14 hours ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

thank you.  Did they have a child together?

No - remember, Moira said in the flashback that Luke leaves his wives when they can't reproduce. And there was a series of flashback scenes in a previous season where Annie finds out about Luke and June's affair, and after Luke has left Annie for June, they show Annie seeing Luke and June and baby Hannah in a restaurant. June sees that Annie sees them (Luke doesn't see her) and rubs her relationship with Luke and their baby in Annie's face, making eye contact with Annie and making a show of snuggling with Hannah. Annie leaves upset.

Edited May 21, 2021 by Empress1